Phoebe Snow
No comparasions this time. Simply said the Lackawanna Railroad's "Phoebe Snow" was "the way to go to Buffalo".The gold trimmed maroon and grey paint scheme was right up there with New Haven's Brewster Green and scrpit as the most attractive in the Northeast, and, unlike the New Haven, was always immaculately clean.
Phoebe was a "postwar" creation, and was equipped with lightweight cars from the inauguration. By the time, I got to ride in 1960 (just before the EL merger), the consist was four coaches (ACF & P-S) diner and observation lounge (Budd). Not a matched streamliner, but close. There was however an assortment of head end cars as well, but I think they paid the bills (ref: Amtrak Forum postings on this matter).
The DL&W; advertised passenger train service "up to the end". I can recall a small ("eighth-page") display ad in the New York Times that always ran on Monday. Not impressive as ads went, but impressive in that they advertised service when others hardly were about to.
The fares, you can almost say what fares! The DL&W; offered an absurdly cheap mid-week round trip that I believe was priced at 3 cents per mile, or about the same as a toll road in the Northeast today.
And the scenery; perhaps if I had to do it every day, I would think different about the Hudson River ferries. But what a way to start or end a trip. There was the Blairstown cutoff in western New Jersey. Observing the engineering and feeling the quality of the roadbed from the obs lounge showed one that this was no "shoe string" railroad (such as Monon or Rock Island) trying to masquerade as a big boy.
The Delaware Water Gap even then was hardly pristine. (the DL&W; timetable cover photo did not show too much of then US-46, now I-80), but the Gap is a lesson in the power of water, and a billion years thrown in for good measure.
The ride over the Poconos, the impressive depot at Scranton, the Nicholson viaduct, along the Susquehana and Chemung between Binghamton and Elmira, and even the station stop at Dansville, how it overlooked (I think that portion has been abandoned) the town below from its high vista point.
I even must mention the stub-end station at Buffalo. I thought once they tried to demolish it, but it was so solidly built that the only way to bring it down would almost be to "nuke" it. So they found some other use for it and it still stands.
Also surviving to this day are Phoebe's obs lounges. I believe they are owned by New York MTA, and are used on excursion runs as well as VIP trains.
All, told Phoebe lives on; not only in my memories but surely of others as well.
RE: Phoebe SnowGreat posting! I've always been curious about the famous Phoebe Snow. Do you happen to know what year the P.S. started running with that name? And what route did it take through NW NJ before the Lackawanna Cut-off was constructed?
I'm curious also...is the Nicholson viaduct also known as the Tunkhannock (sp?) bridge or viaduct? If it is,
I've seen pictures of it and would truly like to see it in really life.
It's one of those things that's probably not as good in the abstract as it is in the concrete.
(bah-doomp-boomp)With apologies...
Pete
RE: Phoebe SnowPrior to Phoebe, the daylight train was known as the Lackawanna Limited. I believe the name was not changed until the lightweight equipment was on hand during 1949.The Blairstown cut off was a 1920's project, so Phoebe never went elsewhere in regular szervice. However, the "Old Main Line" followed US46 through Hacketstown until reaching the Delaware. I willing to bet there are more rwsources available on this site at New Jersey Railfan Forum.
And lastly, I would encourage you to share some of your rail travel memories on this Forum, as, despite what it may seem, is not my private domain!!
RE: Phoebe SnowPeter Tuohy asked:
>>I'm curious also...is the Nicholson viaduct also known as >>the Tunkhannock (sp?) bridge or viaduct? If it is,
>>I've seen pictures of it and would truly like to see it >>in really life.Nicholson/Tunkhannock - same one. (Tunkhannock Creek runs thru Nicholson). Easily viewable & photographable as it is right alongside of US-11. About 45 miles south of Bingamton, or 20 north of Scranton.
By the way, when was the official end of Phoebe?
Chris
RE: Phoebe SnowThis follow-up is being written from memory. Corrections are welcomed and respected.Phoebe as a Hoboken Buffalo day train with diner and obs did not make it past E-L M-day (early 1961). At that time "Phoebe" became a nameless Hornell-Babcock St (E buffalo) connection with the Erie Limited.
However, Phoebe's name was ressurected during the White administration, and the obs-lounges were returned to service Meadville-Hoboken. during 1964.
The bankruptcy during 1970 killed all intercity passenger service on the EL.
RE: ClarifacationThe third paragraph of the above posting should read as follows:However Phoebe's name was ressurected during the White administration when trains Hoboken Chicago trains #1-2 Erie Limited were renamed Phoebe Snow. The obs lounges were assigned Meadville-Chicago.
RE: CorrectionThe obs-lounges were assigned Meadville-HobokenSorry 'bout that!
RE: Phoebe SnowLet me add my "amen" to the Phoebe Snow thread. She was one of my favorite trains -- I saw her born, and I cried when she died. I might add several supplemental comments to the thread:The Lackawanna started to receive the new coaches almost a year before Phoebe Snow was inaugurated (as I recall the ACF coaches were the first to arrive). These were placed into service, primarily on the Lackawanna Limited, as they were accepted. I believe the original Phoebe had 6-8 coaches plus the Budd diner and tavern-obs car. In addition the westbound train carried a PS 10-6 sleeper enroute Chicago with a Nickel Plate connection in Buffalo. The eastbound train carried a rebuilt heavyweight parlor car which broke up the exterior lines. In both directions there was a single rebuilt baggage / mail / express car which matched well with the streamlined cars. I rode Phoebe numerous times, particularly between E. Stroudsburg and Oswego while I was a student at Cornell (there was a bus connection between Oswego and Ithaca). I much preferred this to taking the LV Black Diamond out of Easton direct to Ithaca. I always thought the Lackawanna was a comfortable railroad -- by comfortable I mean that it made you feel good. The crew was great, the food was excellent although basic, the equipment was spotlessly clean and inviting (even the Budd cars didn't feel that antiseptic!), it wasn't fancy but it made you feel at home. To me Phoebe Snow really died the day DL&W; and Erie merged. That day she lost her soul, even tho her body carried on a while longer.
Stan Hutchison
RE: Phoebe SnowConcur with Mr. Hutchinson in that Phoebe's Budd obs lounge did not seem quite as antiseptic as other Budd interiors. I think the soft blue bulkhead around where her portrait hung (bolted being pragmatic)in the enclosed bar area made the car less so.Since those cars have been sold to the NYMTA (believe they both were on an innaugural run on the Dover Plains-Wassaic extension for the Harlem Line, I rather doubt if those portraits are still in place. I guess some collector somewhere has him/herself quite a prize.
RE: Phoebe Snowmr. hutchison must have detrained at owego not oswego. owego is on the southern tier line oswego is on lake ontario. the erie and the dl&w; both served owego. the station at the north end of town still stands. also the dl&w; station as well as the lv station still stand in ithaca.
RE: Phoebe Snowyou're right, it was owego, not oswego. sorry for the mixup. stan hutchison
RE: Phoebe SnowDoes anyone know how the "Phoebe Snow" was named. Was it named after someone or something?
RE: Phoebe SnowIt was named after an early 20th Century advertising symbol, created to promote the Lackawanna's use of anthracite (rather than bitumenous) coal. Anthracite burns cleaner, with fewer cinders. Thus,"I'm Phoebe Snow and I dress in white
When I ride the Road of Anthracite!"Not to be confused with rock singer Phoebe Snow, who ripped off her stagename from the Lackawanna Railroad!
A quibble and a WebsiteThe Cutoff that goes through Blairstown was finished in 1911.Here's a website that has some of the Phoebe Snow posters and jingles:
http://www.microserve.net/~magicusa/phoebe.htmlIt's a link from the Steamtown site.
RE: Phoebe SnowSays Phoebe Snow
About to go
Upon a trip to Buffalo
"My gown stays white
From morn 'till night
Along the road of anthracite."
RE: Phoebe Snow (to Chicago)I was curious to know if Erie Lackawanna had any through passenger service arrangements with, for example, Santa Fe since both roads utilized Dearborn Station in Chicago.Thanks for any information you can provide....
Regards...
RE: Phoebe SnowInterline ticketing, of course.Through passenger cars in regular service, NONE
RE: Phoebe SnowFor any one interested in "Phoebe Snow" artifacts.
See my posting "Phoebe Snow lives" at Erie-Lackawanna Forum.
RE: Phoebe SnowI'm curious to know...After the E-L merger.....
Was the level of service offered on the Phoebe Snow from Hoboken to Chicago on the same par as anything that the PRR and NYC (then PC) offered the rail passenger from New York to Chicago.
I've always heard that EL on-board service was was excellent compared to what the other two roads offered...
Your opinions????
Regards.......
RE: Phoebe SnowI did have the occasion during 1961 to ride the EL (still the Erie to any railroader west of Binghamton) "bumper to bumper" (Hoboken-Chgo Dearborn).By that time, the "Lake Cities" routing had been changed Hoboken Binghamton via the DL&W.;
Even back then to ride the train to Chicago caused "crosseyes" (at least in my non-fan family) to ride a "differential" caused even more.
And "what say you is a differential?" Well, during this period (mid fifties on) there were two fare structures in the East. One was "high fare" (PRR and NYC) other was low (Erie, DL&W-NKP;, and B&O;). The difference was roundly 15% on rail fares, but Pullman accomodations were the same.
During early sixties, the PRR and NYC still had a 16hr NY-Chgo Century or Broadway; The ERIE's Lake Cities took 24+. Other than 10-6 sleepers (Hob-Chgo, Akron, Youngstown), the train was entirely heavyweight. Food in the diner was plain but tasty and inexpensive, and to me the train crews were quite friendly.
Over the road, train speed was 70-80mph, however, I could see the "Alpha males and other assorted Type A's" of the day "going bananas" over sitting 20 minutes at some jerkwater stop in Central Ohio. I can hear my father now; "what the 7734 is there to do in Kenton OH for 20 minutes"!!. Well, the "Lake Cities" brought the mail and the Railway Express (Fedex? what's that)to Kenton, and even carried a few souls as well.
Timekeeping was a non-event; Erie could leave one station 20min late, be on time at the next.
All told, a most friendly and leisurly way to travel.
RE: Phoebe SnowApril 30 New York Times has an interesting Front Page "feature" regarding the Genesee Valley Transportation Co.Yea, rah, rah, why post this to a thread regarding Phoebe.
Because the article leads off by ststing the CEO of GVT grew up in Dansville, and also includes a photo of Phoebe leaving Dansville for the ;ast time during 1962.
I would guess that the article is still available at their free, but registration required, web site www.nytimes.com