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Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 From: Nathan Smith nsmith01tx@yahoo.com To: cameramakers@rosebud.opusis.com Subject: [Cameramakers] film holder spec. You might find this interesting: go to www.focalPress.com, look for a book named "Primitive Photography", on the page for that book, click on "sample chapter" in the right column. The sample chapter is how to make a film holder for his camera. It doesn't look like the standard type or width, but if you're making your own camera that doesn't matter I guess. It's a very interesting book although it really wasn't what I was after so I passed, another interesting book that I did buy is "Photographic Cameras and accessories" from http://www.lindsaybks.com/ In fact, if you haven't seen their site you really ought to, Lindsay's idea of DIY is definitely not the average 'artsy-craftsy' variety. Nathan ...

From: "Ken Strauss" ken.strauss@sympatico.ca To: cameramakers@rosebud.opusis.com Subject: RE: [Cameramakers] film holder spec. Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 It doesn't include 8x20 and I have no idea of the accuracy but http://home.earthlink.net/~eahoo/filmhold.html has the dimensions of many size holders. There is extensive discussions of holder sizes in the archives at http://rmp.opusis.com/pipermail/cameramakers/2001-August.txt The official ANSI/PIMA IT3.108-1998 standard for film holders is available for download at http://webstore.ansi.org/ansidocstore/dept.asp?dept_id=94 Warning: The ANSI document is a us$21 download. There are many other photography related standards at the ANSI site but a fee is charged for all downloads.

From: "Nandakumar Sankaran" TheNandakumars@hotmail.com Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format Subject: Re: Newbie questions on 4x5 Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 Film holders are NOT absurdly expensive. You can typically find brand new (or really close to it) film holders on eBay for around $12 apiece. Quickload and Readyload holders cost upwards of $100. The really expensive part is film - quickload and readyloads cost close to $3 per sheet whereas regular film costs around $2 per sheet. For the cost of a quickload holder, you can get 8 double-sided film holders. You start saving money with the very first sheet of film you shoot. The bigger advantage to regular film is the variety of emulsions available for the photographer. Quickload and Readyload formats are not available in every 4x5 emulsion out there. Yes, loading film is tricky but if you have access to a darkroom, it is really simple. Even if you dont have a darkroom in your house, you can use one at a nearby photo lab. I've been shooting Quickloads and Readyloads for about two years now and recently added Fidelity Elite film holders to my arsenal. I'd been apprehensive about making this move, especially given all the negative publicity of dust problems. But if you are diligent about cleaning your film holders before loading every sheet of film, dust is a non-issue. Bottom line: if you shoot a decent amount of film, regular film can really save you money over quickloads and readyloads. Nandakumar http://crookedtrunk.com/Photo/ "Tom Thackrey" tomnr@creative-light.com wrote > > memyself nospam@samiam.com wrote: > > > I am a 35mm user but have been interested in 4x5 lately. I mainly shoot > > landcapes at 14-24mm range, 135mm, 300mm. What type of kit would I need? > > camera preferably one that can tilt, holders, lenses. Im real new, i think > > a 58mm will gice 16mm eqivalent. I have big tripod (can handle a up to > > 11kgs) and a lightmeter that reads both ambient and relected light. > > www.largeformatphotography.info has pretty good dope on getting started with > LF. > [snip] > Ready/Quick loads give you a lot of flexibility in the field. You can pack > as much film as you can carry without having to load and unload film holders > in a changing tent. Film holders are absurdly expensive and bulky so it's > impractical to have large numbers of them. I have 14 which is 28 shots, on > the road I spend each evening (and sometimes lunchtime) unloading and > reloading film holders. [snip] > -- > Tom Thackrey > www.creative-light.com

From: "AArDvarK" noway@yourprob.com Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format Subject: Re: wooden 4x5 film holders Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 I found this site http://www.filmholders.com/ but they don't mention their prices, you have "inquire" via email I suppose. Alex

From: "Kerry L. Thalmann" largeformat@thalmann.com Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format Subject: Re: wooden 4x5 film holders Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 "Silvio Manuel" ghostmancer@the_void.org wrote: > Where do you get the those tools & could they be used to creat holders from scratch > any thoughts on that, I need a couple of 4x10 holders and at 200+ I am willing > attempt building them. Silvio, I'm also a fan of the 4x10 format. I was fortunate to pick up several beautifully made Lotus wooden 4x10 holders at well below market value. If you don't require wooden holders, 4x10 Canham holders sell new for about $95 each and are available from a number of dealers. Not exactly inexpensive, but a lot better than $200+. Keith makes his holders from parts he gets from Fidelity. They are very well made, and while they don't have the same visual appeal as finely crafted wooden holders, in the long run they are probably more stable and more durable. If you want to go really cheap, you could pick up some beat up old wooden 8x10 holders dissasemble them, cut them down to 4x10 and re-assemble/refinish them. If you plan to go this route, 4x10 holders from Canham and Lotus have the same thickness and T distance as regular 8x10 holders. So, the only dimension you'd need to alter is the width. I'd be happy to provide that dimension from one of my Lotus holders. This would certainly be a lot less work, and unless you are a supremely talented woodworker, would probably yield better results than attempting to build holders completely from scratch. There is a reason new wooden 4x10 holders cost over $200 each. They are difficult and time consuming to make. Kerry

From: "Kerry L. Thalmann" largeformat@thalmann.com Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format Subject: Re: wooden 4x5 film holders Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 Silvio, Lotus just recently revamped their web site. http://www.lotusviewcamera.at/ They don't have prices posted, but have a link to request a pricelist by email. You can also see what their cherry film holders looks like at: http://www.lotusviewcamera.at/accessories/sheetfilmholder_e.html I believe the one on the bottom left is an 8x20, but the 4x10 will of course look similar. Kerry

From: "Kerry L. Thalmann" largeformat@thalmann.com Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format Subject: Re: wooden 4x5 film holders Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 "AArDvarK" noway@yourprob.com wrote > I found this site http://www.filmholders.com/ but they > don't mention their prices, you have "inquire" via email > I suppose. Alex, That is Alan Brubaker's site. I got a quote from Alan a couple years ago. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but back then it was in the $279 - $289 per holder range - with a discount (I think it was in the 10 - 15% range) if I ordered 10 or more. While that may sound high, compared to the $95 Canham holders, it is inline with other custom wood holder prices. Although the 4x10 holders are smaller than 7x17, 8x20 and 12x20, they require just as many steps to produce and the same level of precision. S&S; is another manufacturer that custom builds wood holders in any format you desire. I haven't checked their prices on 4x10 holders. Sandy King and Sam Wang are the two partners in S&S.; I don't have Sandy's email handy, but a google search should turn up something if you want to contact Sandy for a quote on 4x10 holders. Quality Camera in Atlanta sells their holders in the larger sizes. Current prices for the larger holders are: 11x14 = $295 7x17 = $349 8x20 = $349 14x17 = $395 12x20 = $395 Kerry

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 From: "Vladamir30" teemax@film.net Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format Subject: Re: wooden 4x5 film holders > I wonder if there are tutorials on how to restore them to > light tightness? Electrical tape on the dark slide edges? You can use any tape you like, even clear Scotch tape if for some reason that was your preference. The tape serves only as a hinge so that film can be loaded and unloaded. It's the trap inside the holder that prevents light from getting in the bottom. I've bought and "restored" quite a few of these old holders. I like them just because they're wood rather than plastic and have a history. I paint or restain the wood when necessary, clean and polish any metal parts, and retape the base with 3M black tape from Home Depot. It's fun and I feel like I'm preserving a tiny bit of photography history. The only problem I've found with my "restored" wood holders is that they're a little heavier than the plastic ones.

From: sahamley@netscape.net (Steve Hamley) Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format Subject: Re: wooden 4x5 film holders Date: 11 Mar 2004 "AArDvarK" noway@yourprob.com wrote > Yes I know they are a bad money risk and this must be an > old standbye question ... but they are very cheap and I > wonder if there are tutorials on how to restore them to > light tightness? Electrical tape on the dark slide edges? > > Anything? > > Thanks all, > > Alex Alex, The tape doesn't keep the holders light tight. it's the design of the light trap (the little "step" or offset) on the hinge. I've used Calumet gaffer's tape as recommended elsewhere with good results: http://www.calumetphoto.com/syrinx/ctl?PAGE=Controller&ac.ui.pn;=cat.CatItemDetail&ac.item.itemNo;=TA7000&ac.cat.CatTreeSearch.detail;=y&type;=SPDSEARCH Also recommended is bookbinder's cloth tape: http://www.gaylord.com/ http://talas-nyc.com/ Steve

From: "jjs" nospam@please.xxx Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format Subject: Re: wooden 4x5 film holders Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 "Vladamir30" teemax@film.net wrote > [...] The foregoing article doesn't deal with the > repair or restoration of film holders, wood or otherwise, and actually > doesn't discuss wood film holders at all. Perhaps he had another article in > mind . This is an interesting thread. I have a couple boxes full of old 8x10 film holders and have put off even looking at them. Perhaps we can trade experiences. I have an assignment until Saturday morning, but I can return to the shop to do some measurements or get started on them. One tip that most people find useful is this: when cleaning up the edges or inside right-angle corners of precise wooden parts (even not-so-precise long flats), a steel straight-edge tool is most useful. (The simple one looks like a 6" steel ruler, but it's thinner and more precise.) You drag (or sometimes push) the edge of the tool across the surface, or in the right-angle places. Gently. You can purchase a modest 'kit' of these edges, including curves for under $15. Mine are high-carbon steel which I prefer over the Stainless because it is easy to put an edge on them with a few strokes across #400 wet/dry paper on a flat surface. BUT we might be more concerned with restoring the dimension-critical part of a worn wooden holder and for that I'd look at fine wood veneer, animal glue (Elmer's) and then the straight-edge planing.

From: "Kerry L. Thalmann" largeformat@thalmann.com Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format Subject: Re: wooden 4x5 film holders Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 "Silvio Manuel" ghostmancer@the_void.org wrote > Kerry your advice is most appreciated. I am a humble wood worker > therefore I think I will live with visually unappealing premade > Canham holders. :-) Silvio, I know your were just kidding, but I do want to make it clear that there is nothing inferior about the Canham 4x10 holders. They are every bit as good as new Fidelity 8x10 holders, and as I mentioned, probably more stable and more durable than wooden holders in the long run. And, they are the most affordable 4x10 holders around and the easiest to get. If you do buy some, you won't be disappointed. I was fortunate to get a really good deal on my 4x10 Lotus holders. They are beautifully made wooden holders and actually a little bit lighter than the Canham holders. Of the fifteen I have, ten have a natural cherry finish and five are painted black. I prefer the look of the cherry holders, but by having two different types, I can use two emulsions and easily keep track of which film is in which holders. Of course, discussing the visual appeal of film holders seesm a bit odd, but we have the same discussions about cameras. So, I guess it's not that unusual. Ultimately, it's the images that are made with the cameras and holders that matter, but there is still some inherent joy in using equipment that possesses a look and feel that are pleasing to the operator/artist. Kerry

From: "Nicholas O. Lindan" nolindan@ix.netcom.com Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format Subject: Re: home-made 11 x 14 film holder? Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 "MikeWhy" mikewhy@my-deja.com wrote > Very nice job of simplifying to meet the requirements. :) Thank you. > How are light traps made? Thick plush velvet. The pile on the velvet is about as thick as the slot and glued to both sides of the slot. To prevent it from getting pealed off by the darkslide I would extended out of the slot and glue the extended bit to the holder on both sides of the slot. There used to be a really thick and plush velvet used in some of the old reloadable film cassettes, I haven't seen any of it in stores, though. Googling may turn up a source. I have never done it, by you might try taking apart a 4x5 holder and see how the light trap is done there. When defining the dark slide slot be sure to make the outside strip of wood very stiff: as wide and thick as you can make it. Otherwise the slot may bow open out of general cussidness. -- Nicholas O. Lindan

From: "Nicholas O. Lindan" nolindan@ix.netcom.com Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format Subject: Re: home-made 11 x 14 film holder? Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 "Matt Ashbrook" ash13brook@comcast.net wrote > Anyone have an idea how to make an 11 x 14 film holder? I want to build an > 11 x 14 pinhole camera so I don't want to drop a couple of hundred bucks on > a film holder? Expensive little buggers, aren't they? The job is simplified if: o The holder only needs to fit your camera o It only works with a pinhole and film flatness better than .05" is not an issue I would suggest single-sided. For those without a router/mill/precision table saw I would, if it were me: For the sides, top and bottom I would use narrow shims (aluminum, veneer, cardboard...) to define the slots, and thicker wider shims to define the spaces between the slots. The sequence might go: Back: 1/8-1/4 masonite Film slot: 1/32"(?) x 1/4 x 14 thin cardboard Space between film and slide: 1/8(thick)" x 3/8" x 14"veneer Dark slide slot: cardboard ?thick x 1/4 x 14 Top: 1/8(thick)" x 3/8" x 14"veneer Sort of get the idea, vary as needed for the bottom and top. Keep the darkslide thin - a sheet of 3030 aluminum would be a good idea. Add light trap, hinge the bottom, paint black .... If you have a router table or some such the whole thing becomes much easier as you can mill slots in a 1/4 square cherry strip. Do not underestimate the value of cardboard (the sort that comes on the back of legal pads) when it has been well coated with lacquer, in the construction of home projects. -- Nicholas O. Lindan

From: "Richard Knoppow" dickburk@ix.netcom.com Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format Subject: Re: wooden 4x5 film holders Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 "AArDvarK" noway@yourprob.com wrote > Yes I know they are a bad money risk and this must be an > old standbye question ... but they are very cheap and I > wonder if there are tutorials on how to restore them to > light tightness? Electrical tape on the dark slide edges? > > Anything? > > Thanks all, > Alex They can be perfectly OK. Check for warping or cracking. The film plane position is important and is fairly easy to measure using a depth micrometer. These are available at hardware stores, Home Depot, etc, for maybe $20 US for a cheap one. Make a reference plate from aluminum or even plastic. It needs to be stiff enough not to bend when you are making the measurement. Check the center and the corners. The cloth tape for the loading flaps is available from Calumet but any cloth tape will work OK, even gaffer tape. The flap itself is the light trap, not the tape. Check the dark slide light traps by taking out the slide, opening the loading flap so you can look staight at the slot, and shining a flash light into it from the outside. There shuould be no leakage. Use a straight edge to check the sides of the holder for warpage. When you buy them sight down the edges, if they are much warped you will see it right away. Holders in wood finish (rather than black paint) can be very old, nearly a century, so be extra careful of them. They may look beautiful and make good collector's items but be too badly warped or have the septum too far off center, to be usable. ANSI Standards for film plane placement in sheet film cameras. Size Location Tolerance + or - 4x5 0.197 0.007 5x7 0.228 0.010 8x10 0.260 0.016 Dimensions in inches. Film thickness is 0.007 The above does not include film thickness. Smaller formats than 4x5 are the same as for 4x5. Formats larger than 8x10 are the same as for 8x10. --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com

From: "Richard Knoppow" dickburk@ix.netcom.com Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format Subject: Re: ANSI Standards for LF Film Holders? Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 "Le Grande Raoul" raoul@olympus.net wrote > Hi: > I'm going to venture into building my own film back for a larger view > camera. My plan is to convert an existing 8x10 camedra by making a new > back standard and having some new bellows made. > > I know there is a standard for the distace from the film plane to the > edges of the holder but have not been able to find them. I also > understand that the standard holds up through 11x14 but probably not > any larger (7x17- up) Any truth to that? > > Jeff Here are the standards for sizes to 8x10. I don't know which ANSI standard applys to holders. You would have to call ANSI to find out. They have a web site. ANSI Standards for film plane placement in sheet film cameras. Size Location Tolerance + or - 4x5 0.197 0.007 5x7 0.228 0.010 8x10 0.260 0.016 Dimensions in inches. Film thickness is 0.007 The above does not include film thickness. Smaller formats than 4x5 are the same as for 4x5. --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com

From: "Richard Knoppow" dickburk@ix.netcom.com Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format Subject: Re: 4x5 Speed Graphic Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 "Neil Purling" sextant@sextant.karoo.co.uk wrote > There are a numbers of 4x5 cut film holders available on ebay and there also > seem to be a few 4x5 Speed Graphic cameras. > To a beginner they seemed tempting. Do I have to look for a specific type of > film holder that was only made by Graflex? > > I have probably just said something which seems really obvious to you but I > am seeking enlightenment. > A few laughs ay my expense are worth it if I avoid making a expensive > mistake along the way. Any of the new holders will work. The best of the holders on the used market are Riteway holders, made by Graflex. Avoid the older wood holders, too many of them are warped or have misaligned septums. I've also had bad luck with some older plastic holders. I have probably 150 4x5 holders of verious sorts more than half Riteway. Almost all of the Riteway holders locate the film properly and are light tight. I check each holder with a depth micrometer for film position. Not hard to do. you need a block of some sort to give the micrometer a reference at the face of the film holder. The correct depth is: ANSI Standards for film plane placement in sheet film cameras. Size Location Tolerance + or - 4x5 0.197 0.007 5x7 0.228 0.010 8x10 0.260 0.016 Dimensions in inches. Film thickness is 0.007 The above does not include film thickness. Smaller formats than 4x5 are the same as for 4x5. Also, check the face of the holder for warping. This is simple, lay a straight edge against the faces and look for light leaking between. Check the light traps by taking the dark slides out (I know, in the UK darkslide means film holder) I mean the covers for the film. shine a flashlight at the slots they go in and look back through them by folding back the loading flap. There were many patented light traps, the ones used on Graflex/Kodak/Riteway holders (all built by Graflex) are quite long lived and rugged. The loading flap has a rabbet which acts as the light trap, the hinge tape does not have to block light. Any fabric tape will do for replacing it, the original is available from Calumet. You also asked about roll film adaptors for the 2x3 Speed Graphic. The older Miniature Speed Graphic has a spring back and does not take roll holders directly (but wait a minute). The later Pacemaker series have Graflok backs and take the holders. Very early Pacemakers did not have the Graflok. Graflok backs can be refitted to any of the Graphic cameras. The back for the Mini Speed Graphic is NOT the same as for the Pacemaker 2x3. It has the fitting for the flash synch on it. They are very rare. Now, its possible to use Graflok type roll film adaptors on Graphic spring backs. At one time Graflex made a holding spring for this called a "spring kit" but they are rarer than Graflok backs. However, you can rig a roll holder by removing the spring panel. Its held on by two screws running into the center of the spring. Then, you need to make a clamp of a washer and rubber so that the washer is held in by the screw that normally holds the back and the rubber strip holds the roll holder in place. If you have access to power tools you can make a more elaborate clamp. This is less convenient than the Graflok but does allow the use of roll holders on older Graphics. If you want to shoot sheet film again just take the screws out and remount the spring panel. A Mini Speed Graphic with a roll holder is a very nice camera. --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk@ix.netcom.com