The Circular Waste of Life:
A primer on buying equipment
by Danny GonzalezDanny Gonzalez Med. Fmt. Camera Review Index
Neighbor to Neighbor Store Ratings
[Ed. note: above link was at http://db.photo.net/neighbor/ now reorganized 2/2003]
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Dejanews Search
Preface - An exercise in futility:
You've just bought that Nikon FE2 you've been eyeing all of these years. The seller describes it as "mint minus" and so close to new you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference. When the package arrives, you find that the camera is well worn and obviously not "Mint minus". The seller says "Just send the thing back. I'll refund gladly".
Can't fault the sellers honesty? Or can you.....
Lifetimes are finite and there are few acceptable ways a seller can compensate a buyer for what I call the 'circular waste of life'. CWOL occurs when a seller is dishonest in their intentions; important because we all spend precious time from our lives looking for good matches between what's offered and what we personally expect from the sellers in terms of service.
When we go looking for a specific item, it's usually because we want that item for some specific assignment, trip or opportunity. If the thing doesn't live up to its billing, you could be forced to spend time and money renting the item or worse, buying it from somewhere else on short notice. Do you have the money to buy the thing twice? How much time do you really want to spend buying? The questions below are hard to ask but they can save you time and money after the deal is done.
Is there no 'restock' fee on disputed returns? Will the seller pay the ship both ways on misgraded items and send the replacement postage free? Will they go out of their way to offer this buyer something of commensurate value with the hours of his time they've wasted? If so, *that's* service.
Most of the time, none of the above will be done and that completes the circle. Hence the lesson: Dealer ineptitude and/or dishonesty almost always equals a circular waste of life. Add to that line: 'at the expense of the goodwill of the customer'.
This article is written to help people avoid the CWOL as best as is possible. Hopefully you won't need it. Reading it and utilizing it is a good idea, if for no other reason than to remind that there are problem dealers out there. A little backwards engineering on the questions at the end should give you a good idea of the games these people play.
The Circular Waste of Life: A primer to buying equipment
Buying photographic equipment has always been something of an 'iffy' proposition. The minefield of dealers, eager to fleece gullible and inexperienced first time buyers is the stuff of legend and is, to my memory, unrivaled (even by electronics stores) in both its temerity and the seemingly ubiquitous infestation of 'bad apples' within.
The most abhorrant peddlers have made such a horrid name for themselves that they typify the buying experience and are considered a negative 'standard' by which all other stores are judged. Cambridge Camera, AAA, Abe's of Maine, Smile Photo, Beach, etc. are consistently described as places where 'bait & switch' practices are common. They've introduced all of us to the relatively recent phenomenon of the 'restocking fee' and AFAICT, all explode their ship/handling fees to the point of ridiculousness. The usenet rec.photo culture has become the first effective threat to this 'old school' way of doing business by allowing people to relate and collate their experiences and to issue warnings of poor business ethics among dealers, to the purchasers who need that information badly.
When you order a brand new something for a specific price and are told that certain needed, MFG supplied accessories are "extra", or are told that only the more expensive "US version" is available at extra cost, or that shipping is going to be 15% of your packages value or $200, whichever's more; warning bells should be going off in your head............ Here the circle has begun to form.
Ignoring your better instinct, you go ahead and give the order (or, since most of the aforementioned won't answer any question at all until they've had a satisfactory answer to the demand of your credit card number, they've already *placed* the order as you've been speaking). When the order arrives (If the order arrives), you find that the camera you've agreed was ordered is not in the box and instead, they've sent you the model below or the grey market version. Whatever.
Something is *always* seriously wrong with the correlation of what you've agreed was ordered and what was sent. Now, the onus is on you to take an action to fix the problem. You call and they blow you off with the 'thousand numbers to call customer service' and when you do finally get a human on the line, the 'computer is down' and you'll need to call back. "No, you can't just send the package back. An RMA number is required"!
And then it hits you.......... that 15% restocking fee is going to be levied against your return. Now it's going to cost you your hard earned money and here, the circle begins to take recognizable form.
Luckily (I hope), you realize that you've placed the order via your credit card and spend more time going through all of the tedious steps required by your card issuer to dispute the charge. If this works and you get to keep your money, you've just spent days of wasted time and aggravation; if it doesn't, add wasted money to the equation. Now, the circle has closed and the exercise is complete. I call this transaction, and others like it the "Circular waste of life" because it's futile, pointless and offers no reward to either the antagonist dealer or victimized customer.
How can a store stay in business doing this? Why would they do it? I'm sure it's because the majority of buyers who are caught in this game eat the loss rather than fight the battle that begins the war.
How can you defend yourself against it? Listen to what people are saying on the listserves and in the newsgroups. Can you ever fully protect yourself? Not long ago, there was a comraderie among usenet devotees that fostered ratings systems (based on Shutterbug standards) which were adhered to or else a kind of excommuncation resulted. This standard, coupled with the recent rise of the used equipment market, allowed a trading market of goliath size where purchaser safety was of foremost concern to come into existance: rec.photo.marketplace
Here you could buy almost anything photographic from verifiable people (you could look up their posting histories on Deja news at www.dejanews.com) and be fairly well assured that the condition of the item would be as described. As the general populous stampeded usenet and thanks to some very crafty individuals who started using anonymous screennames, PO boxes and free email sites (like hotmail.com), an old scam started to become more common: Dishonest sellers realised that many people would keep a misrepresented item- and they'd do it without posting standard usenet warnings. Next, flea market vendor-style pseudo-dealers began posting to marketplace and the dealer practices everyone was running from became almost commonplace again.
Dilligent buyers, with a paranoid eye and hardened personalities still feel relatively safe when buying because they rely on their old methods. They check dejanews for the sellers knowledge level and how long they've been around. They search high/low for any record of poor dealings and they look for old email addresses. They avoid the flea market jr. dealers and they hold everyone exactly to their word; they flame at the first sign of trouble.
All of this has left a bad taste in the mouthes off many who wish to avoid problems and just want to buy a camera. Enter the latest phenom: The un-major dealer with the good reputation.
As used equipment gained acceptance as safe to buy and as a few major new equiptment dealers began to rise above the carnage because of consistently good usenet reports (B+H, Camera world of Oregon and M+M photo come to mind here), these smaller un-major dealers became a standard source for avoiding problems. Names like Don Chatterton Intl., George Ury, KOH camera, Ken Hansen, Photo Habitat, Photo Gizzmo, Stan Tamakin, Le camera and KEH started making more money as people sought them out by reputation.
And, until recently, all was good. Some, like Hansen, Photo Habitat, Photo Gizzmo, Tamarkin, Le Camera and KEH _still enjoy fairly spotless/spotless reputations but the others are apparently (or at least one is decidedly) not living up to the standard their reputations require.
My own experience with D. Chatterton Intl. began when I bought a Leica CL + 40/2 that was advertised in Shutterbug as being in "Mint minus" condition. When the parcel arrived I was unhappy to find that though the camera could pass for a mint minus rating, the lens surely could not. Since it was brassed and well used, it required an excellent or excellent minus rating at the very best; a full two or three grades down from "mint minus".
When I called to inquire what options were available to me, I was told there was only one: return the camera for a refund. Would DCI pay return shipping? No. Would DCI pay shipping both ways (as is usenet custom for grossly misgraded equipment)? No. Can you trade the lens for a more accurately rated one? Can I return only the lens and wait for a better sample? Absolutely no, I was told. Was Don Chatterton comfortable issuing ultimatums and offering piss poor service? You tell me.
The circlular waste of my life was once again complete. I kept the camera because I didn't want to have wasted $40 evaluating the consistency of DCI's ratings standard and days of my life waiting, calling and standing in Fed-Ex lines; I apologize to you, the reader, for not following through. Consequently, I was not then happy and never will order from, nor recommend D.Chatterton Intl. to anyone ever again.
Now, I've begun to foster my relationship with a couple of my local dealers and I buy from them first, and often, because these people have gone out of their way to be honest 100% of the time and I've come to the realisation that this is more valuable than saving that $40 difference on a Leica CL.
My un-major dealers hall of fame:
Photo Habitat NYC
Photo Gizzmo NYC
KEH Atlanta (fairly major dealer but always attentive; will pay ship both ways on mis-rated items)
Other dealers I recommend:
K. Hansen NYC
Le Camera NJ
Bergen County Camera NJ
Wall Street camera NYC
Tamarkin NYC
B+H NYC
Camera World of Oregon
Hadley Chamberlain
CWOL infected by personal experience:
D. Chatterton Intl.
George Ury
Olden NYC
Negri's photo
Stephen Shuart
KOH's camera
Bill Cameta Camera
When you're buying new, ask these questions (in addition to the ones for used):
- Get the name of the salesperson, date and time and write it down. Keep your pencil+paper or computer ready. Write down the answer to each of the following questions in full.
- Do not give your credit card number until you confirm the items availability, price, warranty status, complete factory package (including all of the extras/accessories that come with the item) and acceptable ship charge.
- Is the warranty an "Original USA, by the camera manufacturer, warranty". Use those words exactly. A 'USA warranty' could technically be the stores own warranty on grey market equipment. Don't look kindly on stores that play word games on this point.
- Some people recommend that you have everything shipped via 2 day to insure the lack of backorders (another time wasting tactic).
- Ask if they charge your card before the order is deemed complete and shipped. Some will confirm stock on all items to you, charge your card and then backorder the expensive stuff. Leaving you paying interest on money that's bought nothing.
- Fax a confirmation of all that was promised you directly to the salesperson after you've completed the order.
- Get a total and check the math.
- Read the used buying section below for a few more ideas. Do a search on the stores name in deja-news. Go to all of the mail order ratings sites you can find (there's a few URL's at the top of this document).
Some questions buyers might like to ask and have answered when buying a used camera:
- Get the salespersons name and write it down, along with the date and time called.
- Get a full description of the item and ask for a rundown of any/all defects in fit, finish and function. As the dealer talks, write down their words.
- When they say "Mint minus", do they mean mint minus for a camera that old or are they using a strict interpretation of the Shutterbug ratings system.
- Ask the salesperson to compare the item to a new one. Is it close? If not, ask for a point-by-point rundown of why.
- Make sure you're talking about the correct model and version of the camera (or whatever) you're wanting to buy.
- Get the serial number of the item you're buying. Make sure you're buying the item being described.
- All of the pieces necessary to make it a functional item intact? All original?
- Ask if the item was recently repaired to bring it to spec.
- Ask if there's a restock fee on returns. How is this handled when the condition or function of the item is in dispute?
- Ask what the dealer expects of you in case of a dispute. OK by you? Are you sure?
- Detail the warranty. Are there any caveats or repair source requirements?
- Shipping cost? Method of shipment?
- Require return merchandise authorization/RMA on returns? If yes, get the customer service phone number and call it. Does anyone answer? It's a bad sign if you get a machine or a no-answer ring.
- Get a total! No exceptions. Check their math.
- Try to pay via credit card and familiarize yourself with your issuers merchant dispute requirements. Amex will do most of the work to begin a dispute without written communication from you. Most card issuers won't do a thing until you fill out their forms and send them back, which is more life wasted and something I'd advise you avoid.
- Be mildly paranoid and you'll likely find that the dealer is as well. Do everything you can think of to level the playing field. Try to be matter of fact and pleasantly officious. Being too kind is a sign that you can be taken advantage of.
Buying from private individuals:
- Get a home phone and a work phone, a full address (PO Boxes add risk) and call them personally. This is the first step in making sure they're actual people and not imagined identities.
- Check both their names and their email adresses on Deja-news in both the current and old directories. Look for the number of recent for sale messages (# of posts to rec.photo.marketplace) and check their posts in the forum appropriate to what you're buying for posts about the item you're buying. This gives you some idea of their true personal opinion of the item in question.
- Go through all of the steps above.
- When dealing with private individuals, ask if, in case of a dispute, would they be willing to accept the deal in reverse. IOW, you pay first and the seller ships. Would the seller do the same, or at least deal through a broker (and split the pay with you) for the return. Would you trust a seller who misrepresented an items condition to have both your item and your money after being annoyed by having to accept the return?
What follows is a current conversation on the RPE35mm which inspired me to write this article:
Richard Brosseau wrote:
I've bought a Nikkor W 360mm large format lens from George Ury. The lens was fine and arrived promptly. One thing that irked me was that the lens had some numbers (SIN) engraved on the barrel and on the shutter. The engraving seemed to had been badly done by the len's previous owner. George neglected to inform me about the engraved numbers when we talked on the phone... rbrosseau@channelware.com or
richard.brosseau2@sympatico.ca
=============================
The Somnolent Phantom wrote:
It seems like Mr. Ury apparently has a problem seeing engraving on equipment that he sells. I recently bought a Canon Speed Finder from him that was advertised in the May issue of Shutterbug as being in Mint Minus condition. I confirmed the condition with him over the phone.
When the finder arrived, it was in had the characters C-01 deeply engraved in large letters on the top of the finder. The finder was also severely worn and obviously well beat up by many years of commercial service. I would rate the finder at best a "6". I returned the finder and got a refund......But he did not rebate my return U.P.S charges. I feel that this finder was grossly misrepresented, and I will never deal with him again. Caveat Emptor!
Caveat Emptor Indeed. Help make this article better by suggesting ways to counter ever more creative rip-off strategies.
Thanks,
Danny Gonzalez
dannyg1@idt.net
Postings:
From: "Frank Calidonna" frank.calidonna@worldnet.att.net
Newsgroups: rec.photo.misc
Subject: Re: The Circular Waste of Life: A primer on buying camera equipt.
Date: 8 Jun 1998I would put KEH, Columbus Camera, and Del's on the top of my trustworthy lists for used equipment. I have dealt with them and always found their business practices to be excellent. For new equipment I have had great service a from Calumet, Camera World of Oregon, and Abbey Camera. For supplies I would add Freestyle, Hunt's, and B&H.; It is good to know that there are some great outfits to deal with. There are a lot of sharks in the water.
Frank Rome, NY
From: baldycotton@mindspring.com (baldycotton@mindspring.com)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace
Subject: How to buy (retail) cameras by mail order
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998Every single day there are posts in the newsgroups from people who have been cheated by certain mail-order stores. Before you purchase by mail-order, do the following
1. Know what you want to buy, and know what their advertised price is. If they dont have it, say "thanks" and hang up. Dont let someone on the phone talk you into a "bargain" that you are not knowledgeable about. You WILL regret it. NEVER let them talk you into a product you are not familiar and comfortable with. It WILL be inferior. If the price seems to be very low, be skeptical, then watch out for high shipping charges, extra charges for the warranty, etc.
2. Read this newsgroup and ask for advice about equipment, prices, shipping charges, and any alternatives. You will get good advice! It drives all of us more experienced photographers and equipment buyers crazy to keep reading posts saying "I think I was just ripped-off." It is avoidable! Learn first, buy later. We like helping!
3. Always purchase by charge card! Use Visa, Mastercard, American Express, whatever, but be certain you can call the card company and get help if you think the store is trying to dupe you. Dont give them your charge card number until you are absolutely certain you are ready to buy.
4. When you start the conversation, ask for the salesmans name.
5. Ask if it is all definitely in stock. Ask if it will be shipped immediately. If it is on back-order, cancel the order and call back after you expect the product to be available. Otherwise, they may bill you today and ship it to you in six months, if at all.
6. Ask if it is new, and if it has a USA FACTORY warranty. If you don't ask, you will get a "gray market" warranty.
This means only that store, and not the factory, will honor the warranty.
A USA STORE warranty isnt good enough.
No warranty card in the shipment? Return it NOW.7. Ask what the return policy is. If you have read their advertisement in a magazine, look for printed information on the return policy.
8. Ask them what the shipping and handling charges will be. They may not be able to give you an "exact" price, but they will give you an estimated price. If it sounds too high, cancel the order.
9. Ask them how soon you will receive your order. 10 to 12 days is reasonable.
10. For safety, you can use a fax to get your pricing, availability, and warranty information. That way, you will have a hard copy for the record. If they will not communicate by fax, take your business elsewhere. You can use the fax to dispute charges with the card company if you need to.
11. Be polite, and expect them to be polite. Expect them to answer your questions patiently, but understand that they dont have all day to explain features, etc. Be reasonable. You should know all this before you call. If they are abusive, tell them so, and hang up.
12. If you don't receive your entire order, call and ask why. If you don't receive the balance within a few days, cancel the balance. Call your card company and tell them you have canceled the order for goods not received and will not pay for them.
13. If your products are defective, incomplete, no warranty cards, etc., call and tell them you are returning it. Then, return it immediately by registered mail or UPS.
14. Watch out for those add-ons. Be grateful if the salesman recommends you buy a battery for your new camera, but if he suggests things that you are wary about, filters, flash, etc., say "No thank you. I cant afford that yet", then do your homework before buying it.
Some of the stores that are most highly recommended by users of this group are:
B&H; Photo, New York City
Camera World, Oregon
Dels Camera, California (a tad pricey?)
Keh Camera Brokers, Georgia
Adorama, New York City
Charlotte Camera, North Carolina
Camera Exchange International, Swansboro (used equipment)
Porters, Iowa (pricey)
M&M; Photo (received several good reviews)
Unique Photo, New Jersey
Calumet
Access Discount Camera
Many writers have complained about the following stores. It is recommended that you do not do business with them:
Cambridge Camera Exchange, New York City
Smile Photo, New York City
AAA Camera Exchange, NYC
Focus Camera, New York City
Beach Photo, Maine, New Jersey, Florida
Wall Street Camera, New York City (some good reviews also)
Sus, New Jersey
Abes of Maine
Honest Abe, New York City
CCI, New York City
CamAmerica
Cameta Camera, NY
Family Photo and Video
Camera City
My personal experience is only with B&H;, who was wonderful, and Cambridge, who lied to me. The rest Ive gleaned from reading the NG. Ill try to post this often for the benefit of new readers. Comments are very welcome.
From: kaliushkin@att.net (Dan Kalish)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format,rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Subject: Hidden and absurd costs
Date: 5 Feb 2002
Having just read some interesting articles by Monaghan, Gonzalez or
Albro about ridiculous costs, I'm adding my experiences.
The first level was when I acquired a Minolta SRT-101, new. That was
around 1968. Lovely camera (I still use it), no surprises: it came
with everything I needed, including lens caps, case, battery,
instruction manual. Over the years, I acquired some lenses, UV
filters, close-up lenses, shutter release cables, extra bodies, stuff
like that. Lovely system.
The second level was this past November: I bought a used Nikon F
Photomic FTN from a dealer. We settled on a price I was happy with.
What I didn't know was that the following were extra: AS-1 flash
adapter (the camera doesn't have an accessory shoe), Nikon proprietary
shutter release cable, manual (from eBay), the correct
focusing/viewing screen, also from eBay (the dealer sold it with a C
screen (ugh)), and a neck strap. Then there were the useful but not
quite necessary items: lens hood, UV filter, camera case, another
focusing/viewing screen, AR-1 soft shutter release (the shutter on the
F is in an odd place), other filters, SB-15 flash (my Minolta flash
shocks me when its used on the Nikon), SC-10 hot shoe adapter to use
the SB-15 on other cameras (third party adapters don't work), a bag
for all this stuff, and, of course, Peter Braczko's book so I could
sort it all out.
I wasn't totally surprised when I bought a portrait lens and found the
lens caps to be extra. (Brooklyn Camera Exchange) I asked in a
photo.net and found that this was pretty standard. However, when I
got a 200mm f/4 telephoto lens from Adorama, they included lens caps
and a plastic bag in which to store the lens. How do they make money?
The third level was also this past November: a Rolleiflex Automat TLR.
I was prepared for the extras: flash bracket (eBay), lens cap ($30 on
eBay), neck strap (only $20) and the manual could be downloaded for
free. Oh yes, ONE uv filter was $40. I'm holding off on close-up
lenses ("Rolleinar") and even an everready case.
Now I'm looking at MF SLRs. This will be the fourth and I suspect,
exponentially greater level. I've seen some pretty good prices on
Rollei SL66E and Hassie 500 C/M. However, I suspect that these prices
don't include film backs, viewfinders or lenses. I look through the
ads and it seems things you take for granted on a camera are a mere
$200.
Why can't you ask, "what will this camera cost" and get a straight
answer????
Dan
From: ramarren@bayarea.net (Godfrey DiGiorgi)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format,rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Subject: Re: Hidden and absurd costs
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002
kaliushkin@att.net (Dan Kalish) wrote:
> ...
> Why can't you ask, "what will this camera cost" and get a straight
> answer????
Because it all depends, to a great degree, on just what you want and what
you need for the camera to be useful to you. Particularly when you buy
used equipment.
My recent purchases include a Voigtländer Vito B and a Sony DSC-F707
digital camera.
The Vito B was cherry looking but when it arrived I knew it needed a
complete and thorough CLA for me to enjoy it, which cost 2.5x what the
camera cost.
For the Sony, purchased new, I budgeted for what I knew I'd want as
accessories immediately (additional Memory Sticks, case, lens hood, Memory
Stick reader for laptop and desktop machines, spare battery and external
charger). Others might not feel the need as I did to have a gigabyte of
storage to carry or might feel that a cheaper accessory case would do them
fine. As it is, I'm fine ... I budgeted up to $2800 for a prosumer digicam
purchase and have spent well under that.
The only answer is proper research, studying what you want and need to
make an effective cost estimate to obtain it.
Godfrey
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