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| moquist |
I've copied the current Picnic conversation from the "Recent Viewings" thread so nobody has to flip between threads:
: moquist wrote
: I enjoyed the film quite a bit; the tension it built reminded me of
: Rosemary's Baby, because there wasn't anything gory or shocking.
: The actors and actresses gave the viewer emotional cues, and those
: were enough. I finished the film and began reading Ebert's review,
: but I stopped halfway through it because he was analyzing it too
: well; I want to spend more time on my own, first. One thing puzzles
: me, though.
: SPOILER-ish
: He seemed quite convinced that the film is all about a "frenzy of
: repressed sexuality". I can see how sexuality plays a part, but I am
: apparently far too ignorant of the subtlties of narrative sexual
: tension. (The same thing happened when I finished reading Dracula.
: I read some articles, and apparently everybody else managed to
: realize that sexuality was a central theme. I totally did not get that.)
: So I'm planning to do some reading on Victorian views of sex, to
: flesh out the vague understanding I have of it now.
: SPOILER (for Dead Poets Society also)
: I predicted to myself as soon as we met her that Sarah was going to
: kill herself. Her character felt right off like Neil in Dead Poet's
: Society; we were even in a one-sex-only boarding school again (in a
: back-to-the-future sort of way).
: : moquist wrote:
: : I enjoyed the film quite a bit; the tension it built reminded me of
: : Rosemary's Baby, because there wasn't anything gory or shocking.
: Doug Cummings wrote:
: Very much so. I've got a fondness for psychological thrillers sans
: violence, and "Picnic" has few equals. It's an extremely haunting and
: artful mood piece.
: : He seemed quite convinced that the film is all about a "frenzy of
: : repressed sexuality".
: It's a very prevalent interpretation, but it's definitely only one
: interpretation. It's partly an interpretation bandwagon, but I think a
: lot of people see a film about teenage girls in white dresses running
: around in the wilderness and form immediate associations.
: Interesting comparison with "Dead Poets." Another recent film
: which earned a lot of comparisons was Sofia Coppola's "The Virgin
: Suicides."
I was already interested in seeing it, so I rented The Virgin Suicides last night. I think the films are fundamentally similar because they evoke moods about repression. Ebert quotes Weir in his review:
"We worked very hard," Weir told an interviewer for Sight & Sound, "at creating an hallucinatory, mesmeric rhythm, so that you lost awareness of facts, you stopped adding things up, and got into this enclosed atmosphere. I did everything in my power to hypnotize the audience away from the possibility of solutions."
The Virgin Suicides doesn't so much entice us away from an answer as the narrator mentions at least a couple times (beginning and end of the film) that nobody really understood the Lisbon girls. But even so, it spends its energy recalling, relating, and attempting to share the narrator's experience of fascination with the Lisbon girls. For both films, the mysteries remain unsolved because the camera is limited to the knowledge of one particular character (or set of characters) for any given part of the story. In that way, the mood of each film is more easily shared by the audience because we can relate more or less directly to one or more of the characters; it's a mood/knowledge POV [mostly] without any literal POV shots.
I'm not convinced that a "frenzy of repressed sexuality" is the primary theme underlying either of these films. Sexuality obviously plays a part in both. I'm inclined to think that Picnic is more generally about the tension between tamed-society and the untamed-extrasocial. Or, put another way, the tension between fitting into the mold of the finishing school image and not fitting into that mold. Hanging Rock itself is definitely Other relative to the school; far from the serene and proper atmosphere in which girls become ladies, Hanging Rock is crawling with unimpeded nature. Sure, one aspect of the girls' repression is sexual, but I would say the broader repression is centered more on gender than sexuality specifically. And then, OTOH, we have Sarah's social stigma as a poor orphan girl. She doesn't fit the desired gender mold because her posture is "bad", and she can't fit the mold because she can't afford it any longer. In a way, then, her suicide and the disappearances were similar escapes from (largely) gender-based social demands.
The Virgin Suicides gives us more of a microcosm of a repressive social structure, as Mr. and (mostly) Mrs. Lisbon cage their daughters out of a desperate sort of religiously informed protectionism. Mrs. Lisbon narrates for just a bit at the end, telling us that "there was never any lack of love in our house". Both films place some blame, though neither attributes malicious intent to the guilty. They both seem to say that obsessive repression, even for the best of reasons, is unhealty for the repressed.
Agreement, disagreement? I know you recently watched Picnic for the first time, Darrel. What did you think?
[Edited by moquist] |
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| MLeary |
Thanks for posting on this, one of my favorite films. I think we had a thread a long time ago on this film that wasn't very active, but perhaps this one may be more fulfilling.
As far as the sexual tension goes, it is rather difficult not to see elements of it in the bare narrative. So much so that other than the disappearance, the various points of sexual tension (the girl and her roommate, the teacher and the students, the boy and the girls he follows, etc...) are the only real points of tension in the storyline. As I watched it a few more times I couldn't help but think that these elements were dropped around the corners of the story like pyschological red herrings just to add some weight to the picture. I think Ebert's point is not just that the story has elements of sexual tension, but that it is a direct criticism of Victorian notions of sexuality set against the mysterious natural spirituality of the Australian outback. Here you have rigid and "proper" notions of what is acceptable, but the human spirit continually strains against these boundaries, forcing us to become frustrated and unfulfilled people (the principle). But here they are in a wild and dangerous land that mocks such artificial notions.
And all Picnic at Hanging Rock is, is that it is a snapshot of this interchange. A shocking interchange embodied in the inexplicable disappearance of these girls. Or something along those lines.
I think some of the same tensions are explicit in Heavenly Creatures. I am also a big fan of The Virgin Suicides, calling it a sort of "microcosm" as you do is an insightful gesture. |
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| Darrel Manson |
I shouldn't post this early. (I don't wake up until 10, regardless of what time my body gets out of bed.) So forgive if this rambles or makes no sense.
I watched Hanging Rock after reading Johnston's discussion of Weir in Reel Spiriuality, so I was already expecting the civilization encountering raw nature theme. And it is certainly valid. But I also was struck at the suppressed sexuality (and in this case, same sex sexuality), which can be read as a subtheme of the overall theme. Without having read Johnston, I'd have probably been struck by the sexual side more so than the nature side. |
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| moquist |
: MLeary wrote:
: As far as the sexual tension goes, it is rather difficult not
: to see elements of it in the bare narrative.
As I've mentioned before, I sometimes amaze myself with my obtuseness.
: So much so that other than the disappearance, the various points of
: sexual tension
: (the girl and her roommate,
Ah, I'd forgotten to revisit that one. I remember the sexual tension there, but I think I was focusing so much on the expected suicide that it slipped my mind until you mentioned it again. (Yes, I realize: obtuse.)
: the teacher and the students,
Are you referring to the general sense in which the institution forced the students to comply with Victorian sensibilities, or something more specific? I remember Mrs. Appleyard's comment about taking off their blouses once they got there, but no other specific points come to mind.
: the boy and the girls he follows
Definitely.
The group corset-cinching also stands out to me as connoting strong social/sexuality tension, in both literal and metaphorical senses.
: are the only real points of tension in the storyline.
I disagree here. There is strong tension concerning Sarah's future, and also tension about the future of the school. And, of course, saying "other than the disappearance" chops out the majority of the film.
There were little references here and there that indicate to me that sexuality is an important part of the repression with which the film is concerned; the servant's comment that Irma was missing her corset is especially strange, and strengthens the link between the disappearance and freedom from social concerns. And, of course, the fact that Mrs. McCraw was running around in her underwear indicates some important non-compliance.
: As I watched it a few more times I couldn't help but think that these
: elements were dropped around the corners of the story like
: pyschological red herrings just to add some weight to the picture. I
: think Ebert's point is not just that the story has elements of sexual
: tension, but that it is a direct criticism of Victorian notions of
: sexuality set against the mysterious natural spirituality of the
: Australian outback.
So do you agree or disagree with Ebert? Calling these elements of sexuality "red herrings" makes me think you wouldn't agree with him. I wouldn't call them "red herrings", because I think they're part of the broader sweep of what the film considers "social repression". Of course, I may just be ignorant; perhaps Victorian society was overwhelmingly shaped by its view of sexuality. In that case, then, I would have to agree that Ebert is probably right.
: Here you have rigid and "proper" notions of what is acceptable, but
: the human spirit continually strains against these boundaries,
: forcing us to become frustrated and unfulfilled people (the
: principle). But here they are in a wild and dangerous land that
: mocks such artificial notions.
Yes. I agree, and I think this is a good summary. I'm not yet convinced that these proper notions are *centered* around sexuality. (But I'm willing to accept that point if I find that Victorian society was defined overwhelmingly by its view of sexuality.)
: I think some of the same tensions are explicit in Heavenly Creatures.
I'll keep that title in mind...
: I am also a big fan of The Virgin Suicides, calling it a sort
: of "microcosm" as you do is an insightful gesture.
Thanks. I'm glad Doug mentioned the similarities and I watched it. My wife read the book about a year ago and was interested in seeing the film, but we never got back to it until last night.
[Edited by moquist] |
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| moquist |
: moquist wrote:
: I remember Mrs. Appleyard's comment about taking off their
: blouses once they got there
Ahem, "blouses" should be "gloves" there. Heh; taking off their blouses certainly wouldn't be Victorian repression any longer...
We just had our screening and discussion tonight, and somebody brought up Miss McCraw's discussion of the volcano during the drive to the picnic. She thought that Miss McCraw was expressing repressed sexuality in her description of the "viscous", "erupting" "mountain". Viewing the mysterious setting of the girls' disappearance a phallic symbol certainly adds strength to the idea that they were escaping from sexual repression.
Overall, our discussion here bent me to conclude that the film is primarily concerned with the sexual aspects of Victorian society. |
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| Doug Cummings |
quote:
moquist wrote:
We just had our screening and discussion tonight, and somebody brought up Miss McCraw's discussion of the volcano during the drive to the picnic. She thought that Miss McCraw was expressing repressed sexuality in her description of the "viscous", "erupting" "mountain". Viewing the mysterious setting of the girls' disappearance a phallic symbol certainly adds strength to the idea that they were escaping from sexual repression.
Yeah, actually this is a pretty common reading. Kudos for catching it!
You might also consider the film in terms of the mysterious and uneasy clash of civilization and nature, which was not only a prevalent theme in several Australian films of the period (most notably Nicolas Roeg's "Walkabout" (1971), another favorite of mine) but also in Weir's subsequent career. Repression in general is a theme he often returns to as well.
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| MLeary |
moquist:
I just picked up PAHR today on the Criterion disc. I will watch it again to assess the other tensions you identify in the film and get back to you on this thread... |
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| MLeary |
quote:
moquist wrote:
: are the only real points of tension in the storyline.
I disagree here. There is strong tension concerning Sarah's future, and also tension about the future of the school. And, of course, saying "other than the disappearance" chops out the majority of the film.
Wow. The Criterion DVD of this film is very crisp. I have always watched it on VHS so this was a great experience. Now don't get me wrong, I am a fan of character development sans plotline ala Zerkalo or maybe Mother and Son. This film verges on that, very obtuse character studies that hover around oblique social cues and personal affectations.
And even though there are also many many points of narrative along the way, all of these points of narrative occur as almost afterthoughts. We switch from a few minutes of Michael the boy and his saga to the headmaster to Sara, etc... And all of these brief character studies occur after the event as if we are really seeing how the disappearance has affected everyone else in different ways. But still, even after all of these deep points of storyline, for some reason the film still reads like a mood piece. I think this is precisely why I find the film so watchable, it has all of these disparate filmic elements existing in a delicate tension and bound together by the haunting musical score.
SPOILER
The whole film seems to rush headlong to the last scene where the gardener rushes into the headmaster's office to report Sara's death and she is sitting there all in black and slowly but sharply turns her head right towards the camera. There is such a balance at that moment between mood and storyline. And right there is a pungent criticism of the "Victorian" social order embodied in the voiceover that reports her suicide the next day.
END SPOILERS
However, after thinking it through again I don't think the sexual tension aspect is as prominent as some make it out to be. In many reviews I have read, this is the only thing they say. Sure there are elements, beautifully positioned trace elements, of sexual tension between the girls and this tension plays a deep role in the story between Sara and her lost lover and perhaps even in the disappearance itself. Yet, this is not the cornerstone of the film. If anything, the cornerstone is the disappearance itself and everything else that occurs in the film leads to or hovers around the event. If you watch the trailer, this is what Weir focuses on. Not the sexual tensions as much as the disappearance itself. It seems that this is the lense he wants us to read this script through.
And even all the other tensions you mention, the school, Michael, etc... They all seem to play a secondary role to the effort Weir puts into letting us see how this event actually affects everyone. So these tensions are there, and if they weren't we would have a very flat storyline that would verge on absurdity. So to me, some of them seem to be there to pad out the script. There is nothing wrong with that because they work very well, I am a big fan of the film itself and I don't agree with Ebert's assessment in toto.
I haven't read the book though, so I wonder how well they match up together.
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| Doug Cummings |
quote:
MLeary wrote:
Wow. The Criterion DVD of this film is very crisp. I have always watched it on VHS so this was a great experience.
I've always appreciated that the Director's Cut of this film is shorter than the original theatrical release. 
The Criterion print also benefits from a full restoration.
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| moquist |
[quote]MLeary wrote:
: SPOILER
: The whole film seems to rush headlong to the last scene where the
: gardener rushes into the headmaster's office to report Sara's death
: and she is sitting there all in black and slowly but sharply turns her
: head right towards the camera.
That shot got audible reactions when we watched it; it's quite chilling.
: embodied in the voiceover that reports her suicide the next day.
Maybe we're just playing hard-to-convince, but we weren't positive that she did commit suicide. I think the film intentionally doesn't tell us one way or the other. It's my personal inclincation to believe that she was despairing of life and perhaps teetering on the edge of sanity, but that she went to the Rock to look for the lost girls, because their disappearance led to the crumbling of her world. And in her state of despair, it would be no surprise that she fell. BUT - that is just my opinionated guess.
END SPOILERS
: However, after thinking it through again I don't think the sexual
: tension aspect is as prominent as some make it out to be.
On the contrary, if we're correct to read Miss McCraw's monologue as an indication that the Rock embodies some sort of raw sexuality, then the disappearance, which you place at the center of the film, is itself centered on some communal escape TO sexuality and FROM Victorian sensibilities.
: In many reviews I have read, this is the only thing they say. Sure
: there are elements, beautifully positioned trace elements, of sexual
: tension between the girls and this tension plays a deep role in the
: story between Sara and her lost lover and perhaps even in the
: disappearance itself. Yet, this is not the cornerstone of the film.
That was my prior view, but if the volcano = phallus/orgasm, then I think we have sufficient reason to say that sexual tension does underlie everything. That isn't to downplay the rest, of course. The other tensions are still there and important, but it seems the film *does* thrust its portrayal toward a certain critique.
: If you watch the trailer, this is what Weir focuses on.
Sorry, but that won't convince me of anything. What director really tries to make an artistic statement with the trailer? I thought that trailers existed for producers to get butts in the theater...
: So to me, some of them seem to be there to pad out the script.
: There is nothing wrong with that because they work very well
I agree. The film seems primarily to be about its mood, and the mood is informed by a subtle critique of a socio-moral system that bottles the human spirit, and especially human sexuality.
: I haven't read the book though, so I wonder how well they match up
: together.
My copy came in the mail yesterday, so I'll see how far I get in reading it. |
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| MLeary |
:: On the contrary, if we're correct to read Miss McCraw's monologue as an indication that the Rock embodies some sort of raw sexuality, then the disappearance, which you place at the center of the film, is itself centered on some communal escape TO sexuality and FROM Victorian sensibilities.
In all respect, there is a lot to be said for all of those connections, even the phallic notions of the rock itself. But I still am hesitant to buy it. Anything can be construed as sexual in nature. Anything at all, thanks to Freudian analysis. But I recently read an interview with Cronenberg in which he mentions a title of a book that convinced him of the vapid nature of Freudian analysis, which I am quite interested in reading.
I can't wait to hear what you glean from the book. If the book smacks of sexual tension, then I will submit to your understanding of the film!
:: Sorry, but that won't convince me of anything. What director really tries to make an artistic statement with the trailer? I thought that trailers existed for producers to get butts in the theater...
Sorry, I didn't mean that to a convincing argument, I just found it interesting. And I would think that if the trailer is meant solely to get people in the theater it would have these girls all over each other. And on the box it would say: "A steamy sexy thriller!!" and on the back it would
say something like "A doomed love triangle between three school girls! Caught between a rock and a hard place: Thier love and thier oppresive head-mistress!"
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| moquist |
: MLeary wrote:
: In all respect, there is a lot to be said for all of those connections,
: even the phallic notions of the rock itself. But I still am hesitant to
: buy it. Anything can be construed as sexual in nature. Anything at
: all, thanks to Freudian analysis. But I recently read an interview
: with Cronenberg in which he mentions a title of a book that
: convinced him of the vapid nature of Freudian analysis, which I am
: quite interested in reading.
: I can't wait to hear what you glean from the book. If the book
: smacks of sexual tension, then I will submit to your understanding
: of the film!
Ha! Our positions have been quite neatly reversed. Keep in mind that I came to this understanding of the film only through hearing and accepting the observations of OTHER PEOPLE, and nobody else will be there to convince me of the sexuality that undoubtedly permeates every word of the book... 
: Sorry, I didn't mean that to a convincing argument, I just found it
: interesting. And I would think that if the trailer is meant solely to
: get people in the theater it would have these girls all over each
: other. And on the box it would say: "A steamy sexy thriller!!" and on
: the back it would say something like "A doomed love triangle
: between three school girls! Caught between a rock and a hard place:
: Thier love and thier oppresive head-mistress!"
 Or, "An erotic treat, just like Kieslowski's White!" |
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