No holes barred. Air your frustrations, sorrows and hopes, just don't quit writing! Whatever you need to express, say it. Agents, publishers, daily writing or lack thereof...no foul language, but let go your writing-related thoughts and feelings...be free. We're all in it together. Hold hands and say: Ommmm.
| "Book publishers often lose money on beginners."
They bet on a loser, or they made it a loser because they didn't invest in proper distribution and advertisement. Perhaps they were too busy placating the fragile ego of their resident Big Name, or the editor and publisher didn't have the necessary clout with their bosses at Gigantacorp to get the funding necessary to make this project work. ~J |
| > Seriously: the market is determined by supply and demand. If there weren't so many writers, it would be easier to sell our stories.
The second part is obviously true, although to a lesser extent than one might think, since most of the submissions are crap anyway. The first part is true where it comes to readers, but less for writers. Book publishers often lose money on beginners. Having fewer writers compete won't change this (and could even make it worse) unless publishers also reduce the number of books offered -- which will also raise the competition. Big writers get big money because they sell big. There's no magic there. It's a bit different for short stories, since there's no direct way to measure how much each of the stories is worth in terms of money for the publisher. But big names still get more, on the assumption that their names on the cover help sell the magazine. |
| Seriously: the market is determined by supply and demand. If there weren't so many writers, it would be easier to sell our stories.
The real problem, I think, involves creating a greater demand for short stories, and making the magazines themselves more competitive with other media. If they can afford to pay more, they will -- to get the better stories. The surplus of writers should, theoretically, drive up the quality of the stories published. If we want to sell our stories, they've got to stand out. But the problem isn't just with the magazines. Book publishers, far as I know, have been paying writers basically the same rate for a first-book for decades, although they've certainly raised the price of books. They do, however, pay a few Big Name Writers extraordinary amounts of money. Some of that money could perhaps be better spent on distribution and advertising of midlist books. Don't put all your eggs in one basket, right? The number of magazines and book publishers give the appearance of diversity, but if you peak under the curtain you'll see their connections. Isn't it odd, for ex., that submissions for Ellery Queen's, Alfred Hitchcock's, Asimov's, and Analog all go to 475 Park Ave. South, 11th Floor? ~J |
| Michael, I agree it feels unfair to publish on the internet but not accept e-subs, but on occasions when the publisher is not the editor, there really isn't anyone to blame. It's not the editor's fault that the publisher is publishing online. I mean, like in the case of SciFiction.
J., go for it! We're right behind you. Snickering. :) Frankly, I don't think it'd help any. It's not the number of writers which determines the pay, but the market condition. Short story mags just don't sell well. Though having fewer writers submit will at least make response time shorter. I also don't blame creative writing classes as much as I blame the internet. It's made writer support groups (like this site) a lot more accessible, and has even made submission easier (having market lists like Ralan's, etc.). |
| If there weren't so many gosh-darned many writers, they wouldn't saturate the market.
This glut in the market was caused by all those teachers of "creative writing" whose jobs depend not on their writing but on their ability to convince others, "You've got what it takes to be a writer! Just don't quit writing!" and publications that failed to compete with television, etc. This has resulted in so-called "professional" publications that pay what was a good rate 50 years ago, although the price of the magazines and books has risen -- no surprise here! -- according to inflation; publishers and retailers who treat books like toilet paper, flushing it after one shot -- unless it's a mega-hit; and, of course, talented writers unable to earn a living... unless they teach "creative writing" and perpetuate the problem -- which certainly benefits the publishers, not the writers. I suggest a boycott: Quit writing until conditions change. Starve the publishers until they meet our demands! Now who's with me? ~J. Granville |
| Two recent pet peeves:
1) e-zines that don't accept e-subs. Sorry, but if you're making use of this whole new fangled internet thang to publish your authors...well, need I explain? Further, if you're not giving the author the dead tree benefit, why should s/he give it to you? Not so say there haven't been successful or prestigious markets like this (Scifi.com), but IMVHO, it's just darned unfair. 2) Zines that invite e-subs but have rapacious spam filters that they unleash upon unsuspecting (and innocent) submitters. This makes me think of a kindly old man who not only can't stop his darling Cerberus from chewing up the guests and burying them under the floorboards, but is also completely unaware of them doing so. With all due respect, please counterSpam responsibly. Just had to say that. No hard feelings to editors who might have done this -- please don't blacklist me, or give me donkey ears, or turn me into a spider or anything. :) |
| "no holes barred" thats either "ouch" or a line for pornographic material. (I'm talking about Kiva's message above)
Wasn't it supposed to be "no holds barred?" =) |
| Oh no, Thomas, I'd hate to see you give up on the RM! It's not as bad as it appears, I hate change, too, but I'm learning, as I splash around in here, and Kent's changing things as he can, when they need it. Please don't leave for good! I'll miss you! |
| Man things have changed since I left. I must admit I hate it. The color is ugly, I don't like registering places, and it was friendlier looking before. Ahh well I'll still see some of you at other boards I trust. Next week ends Lent so I'll be a regular again at Asimov's, Analog, FSF, and I sometimes appear at William Sanders newsgroup.
My writing complaint would be that I get all these ideas, but I'm incompetent at making a story with them. Indeed I seem to prefer writing fictitious articles instead of stories. Alas I suck at that too. I sent one to a contest and half the winners received mention, but I was certainly not in that half. Ahh well, despite the topic I don't want to leave whining. So goodbye to all present over the years who I may not see again. Also may you all have more success in writing than I have thus far had. Zai Jian Thomas R signing off, with a list of online handles and pseudonyms I've used over the years. Yurek Rutz Vomact Pax Mri Fermat Tibby Dzongkha Gaos Trevor Robinson(my one story published at Antipodean) Thomas Redding(I think I used that at Anotherealm) |
| I've moved this from Market Topics to Modest Proposals and Rants & Raves. |
| Rhyme:
Mine's been passed up. You can stop passing other dragon stories up now. There's no point in increasing the competition, now, is there? :) Patrick Samphire |
| Terry: Your saddened remarks remind me altogether too much of the dismay i felt when i realised one book of mine was going to end up expanding into a trilogy...with a group of companions on a journey... and a lot of dragons.
All the odder, as it was supposed to be about Snow White. Lenora Rose |
| Patrick wrote:
"On another related note: I hope ASIM isn't sick of them! You haven't rejected me yet!" Don't worry; I'm just one small cog and I'm still passing dragons stories up if they're good enough. And for all I know, I'm the only ASIM slush-reader who has been getting heaps of dragon stories lately. Maybe it's just the luck of the draw. Rhyme |
| "But, but, but... I can't grow a mustache!"
Then you're just not trying! This is a tough business. No room for compromise. Grow a mustache or drop out! Patrick Samphire |
| Okay, we'll waive the mustache clause in your case! Justin |
| re: 44
But, but, but... I can't grow a mustache! At least not without some terribly painful shots. I fit the rest of the criteria... |
| Frankly, I'd rather get accepted by a place that has a lot of competition. It's better for the ego than an anthology limited to Israeli programmers or something. Unless of course that anthology pays much better than a pro market, in which case the pocket might win over the ego. ET |
| Thanks, Leah and ET. Makes sense about the grant thing.
Okay, I want a magazine that only accepts from Montanans... with mustaches... and too little sleep. Not too much to ask, is it? ;) Justin |
| I think you're in trouble, Patrick. *Two* dragon stories? Listen: When I met him, Frank Wu had successfully avoided drawing/painting/rendering dragons for his whole artistic career up to that point. He was proud of it. He knew *that* slippery slope; paint one smoking nostril and before you know it, you're hawking your 3" x 3" "baby dragon" crap at every drinkwater Con in the country--and worse, making a living out of it! So he told us, he was still Pure, he didn't do dragons.
Of course, any belief uttered with such enthusiasm and sincerity is an open invitation to mockery and derision, and so it was. We catcalled, we whistled, we slapped our knees and laughed at him. "Call yourself a fantasy/SF artist," we jeered, "but you don't draw dragons?? G'awn!" And then, some damsel who really really loved dragons (I think) beseeched Frank (I'm Just a Man) Wu with her big blue beseechers: "Just one dragon, Frank? Please?" ::bat bat:: We all know how it's turned out. The pressure was too great. Now we've got Frank Wu dragons everywhere. He's a changed man. A (dare I say it?) dragon-artist. Oh, sure, he does other things, creative things, great art, brilliant illos. But he can no longer say "I don't do dragons." *Two* dragon stories, Patrick? "the only two dragony stories I've ever written"? *shakes head sadly* We'll see. |
| "Speaking of theme anthos, was there a Dragon one recently? I do a little slush-reading for ASIM and received a deluge of dragon stories when we re-opened for submissions after the Christmas break."
I'm one of those people who sent you a dragon story. As far as I know, there was no dragon anthology. I guess it's just one of those things that crops up in the collective consciousness from time to time. On a related note, Gordon Van Gelder recently rejected another dragon-related story of mine (honestly, those are the only two dragony stories I've ever written) saying that he'd received far too many dragon-related stories recently and wasn't even considering them at the moment. Mine was only tangentially related to dragons, so he must be really sick of them. On another related note: I hope ASIM isn't sick of them! You haven't rejected me yet! Patrick Samphire |
| > My complaint is about all the Aus mags that only let Australians submit.
ASIM allows everyone to submit. It gives more comments to Aussies with their rejections, but that's about it. ET |
| Re: 36
Yes, please-no more "Macho dude using a souped-up wheelchair as a sci-fi techno hotrod" stories either. That said- Crap, I'm sorry I missed the chance to write for that one! ;> |
| Justin, I think there's a reason for the Aussie mags only allowing Australian submissions. A lot of Canadian publishing grants, etc. have strings attached to them: for example, On Spec has to have a certain amount of Canadian content in order to keep receiving their Alberta Arts Council grant.
I would not at all be surprised if a lot of the Aussie magazines were subsisting on the same kinds of deals. Leah Bobet |
| Patrick, I'll be submitting to that "fiction by authors prone to sinus infections" antho if you start it up!
Speaking of theme anthos, was there a Dragon one recently? I do a little slush-reading for ASIM and received a deluge of dragon stories when we re-opened for submissions after the Christmas break. Rhyme |
| I agree. Anthos like that are almost a form of enablement. And as you suggest, if the editor knows what they are doing, they will be able to spot the stories by people who know the subject and those who don't. Why not have open submissions.
My complaint is about all the Aus mags that only let Australians submit. I want to sub there! They look like great magazines! By the way...where do we send stories for the Really Awful Guitarist anthology? I'm ready for that one. Justin |
| Brian,
I haven't heard editors complain about anthology-rejected stories in general. I've heard them complain about getting 200 stories about bookstores, hell, or blimps within a two-week period, but that's to be expected. Gordon Van Gelder can hardly be expected to feature a dirigible story in every issue coming up for the next six months, even if they're individually good. This is one of the reasons that I don't usually write for concept-specific anthologies unless I'm certain that I can edit the story into something slightly different before sending it out again, should it be rejected. I didn't write a dirigible story for Jay, but if I did, I'd have written it so that a little bit of work would have turned it into a submarine. On the other hand, one anthology quirk that angers me greatly is the "Fiction by ____" anthology, where "_____" has been, as I remember recently, authors over 42 years of age, authors living within 50 miles of Memphis, disabled authors, African American authors, gay authors, and Canadian authors. These restrictions anger me for two reasons: 1) I'm a straight white male, which usually disqualifies me. That's not a GOOD reason to be angry, but I'm being honest. 2) It's analogous to publishing one's friends. I work at a nonprofit organization that performs physical therapy on disabled children. As such, I've dealt with said children on a regular basis. I recently saw a 'zine devoted to fiction that celebrated the disabled community, and I wrote a piece for that 'zine based on my experiences, as well as my experiences with my wheelchair-bound friends and my deaf friends and such. I then read the fine print on the 'zine and discovered that they were interested only in fiction BY disabled people, not ABOUT disabled people. Effectively, they are saying, "We would prefer a mediocre story by a disabled author to a wonderful story by a non-disabled author." If there is a true disabled culture, then there is no need to restrict submissions to disabled people only, since only those with intimate experience in that culture are going to be fits for the 'zine. The only downside to accepting fiction from everyone is that you'd have to wade through some lame slush by people who thought that they could just put their magic-sword-wielding knight in a wheelchair with no other changes to the story. The upside is that you might get stories from a few non-disabled folks who are nevertheless members of one or more disability communities and who have good stories, that would fit, to tell. I'd rather see an anthology celebrating or exploring African-American culture, disability cultures, gay culture, Jewish culture, or Canadian culture than an anthology restricted to people who are members of that culture. If the editors are capable of differentiating good works from bad, the latter would be a better celebration or exploration of that culture -- which is usually what the editors advertise as their purpose in putting out the anthology in the first place. And yes, of course I'd submit to anthologies that I qualified for uniquely (a "fiction by authors prone to sinus infections" anthology, or "fiction by authors who are also really awful guitarists" anthology) rather than refusing to submit in protest. It's a business. I'll happily participate in an arena where competition is limited. -Patrick Patrick Weekes |
| I also hate when my own grammar and syntax suck on writing forums. God, that last post was awful. Brian L. Blalock |
| I get frustrated when people mangle common expressions like "no holds barred" on internet forums. =)
Of course, "no holes barred" has some interesting connotations for discussing submissions, doesn't it? One thing I hate: Theme anthologies. I have a story with the Devil in it that's very short to send out, but I'm sure editors will likely think it's a reject from the recent Hell anthology, even though I never did finish the story I started for that one. Another gripe might be editors who pre-judge theme anthology rejects. I've read editors' comments griping about those, though I couldn't name names. Kind of a bad habit if you ask me. Anyway, I'm pretty gripe-free. My biggest writing gripes concern my irratic production schedule. When I have all the time in the world to write (unemployment), I'm too stressed out to be creative, and when I'm stress free (employed full time, going to school...finally!), I have no time to write, and often end up losing sleep to get stories done that are itching to come out... Brian L. Blalock |
| Then, there are some markets (cough...Asimov's) where response time is so erratic you can't tell if a story was actually considered or just buried in slush.
Normally, I don't mind a long response time though, as I usually have more stories circulating than suitable markets to try. When they all come home at once I feel like an air-traffic controller on Christmas Eve! ;) Justin |
| Well, yes, if a handful of extra days means the story got a bit more serious consideration, I'll go for a bit longer.
But to me, anything under 2 months is a *good* response time. Anything under 4 is reasonable, especially if it's a market where being bounced in 2 months rather than 4 means I wasn't seriously considered. Over that... depends on circumstances. Lenora Rose |
| Re: 29
Oh, I'd rather have quick acceptances too. But given the choice between the fast rejection and the slow acceptance, I'd rather have a slow acceptance. In other words, I'll wait if that means I have a better chance. Patrick Samphire |
| History has shown that snail mail is much less reliable than email...
[Laughs delightedly] Have you kissed your e-mail administrator today? |
| Patrick, I'm with Lenora on this. I'd rather get my acceptances quickly. :) Sure, I don't mind waiting more when this is what a market does for stories it considers more seriously, but when I know that's the case, it makes it doubly painful to have that hope kindled by the long wait and then get a personal rejection (or worse, finding out that the story never reached the editor -- which luckily hasn't happened to me yet).
JaNell, really, history has shown that snail mail is much less reliable? My meagre experience shows that the only thing I can rely on with regard to e-mail is getting spammed. ET |
| :D
#15 from ET " Lastly, science fiction often portrays the problems with technology and why it's not the ultimate solution. It's a common theme. Editors know their genre well, and therefore feel that it's much better not to rely on advanced technology." But if they know their genre so well, wouldn't they be familiar with History via Alternate History stories? History has shown that snail mail is much less reliable than email... And how can anyone working in any literary field not be familiar with Dr, Suess? "I am the Lorax. I speak for the trees." :D #21 Lenora, I just recently had an editor imply, in his rejection, that I just wasn't weird enough. |
| For myself, I'll wait if that means a better chance of acceptance (e.g., RoF, ASIM and others). GVG's responses are fast and polite and appreciated as such, but I'd much rather he waited a couple of months then bought my stories. :) Patrick Samphire |
| I said: "Writing peeves? ... Um, that all editors aren't as fast and courteous as GVG and JJA (And so far in my experience, Strange Horizons' team)?"
TRex said: "I'd personally go for a grumpy, misanthropic editor who would _accept_ a tale of mine on occasion! ;-)" I just feel the need to note that I never said anything about these fast courteous responses from editors being *rejections*. I mean, okay, so far, they have been... but I figure, work on one problem at a time. Lenora Rose |
| Re #19-- ET's answer is probably on the money, but the way it makes me *feel* is equivalent to not cheering hard enough to rouse a crowd at a rally. Also makes me doubt my ability to write a decent synopsis. :/ Athena |
| Kiva: What ET said (#20). Terry |
| Haven't had a problem with editors not being curteous (unless you count the Asimov's long form rejection as not being curteous), but I agree that faster responses would be very nice indeed. ET |
| Re #21: I'd personally go for a grumpy, misanthropic editor
who would _accept_ a tale of mine on occasion! ;-) T. Rex |
| Janell: "Why is it so hard to define and properly use the word "irony"?"
A comedian once got a lot of mileage out of examining the Alanis Morrisette song "Ironic" and pointing out that the only ironic thing in it was the way she kept saying, "Isn't it ironic?" about things that, actually, weren't... Oh, um, *writing* peeves? Yes, Officer Topic. I'll try. Um, that all editors aren't as fast and courteous as GVG and JJA (And so far in my experience, Strange Horizons' team)? Does that count? Lenora Rose |
| Never submitted a novel (or finished one) but my guess is that it means "it's an okay book, but I just won't be able to bring myself to tell a publisher that it's the next big thing." Of course it could also be an agent's equivalent of "doesn't fit the needs of this magazine at this time." ET |
| Okay...how many of you authors/writers out there have received rejection letters from agents with the words: "am not enthusiastic enough about your..."?
What does this mean to you? |
| Yeah, international mail in particular can be pretty expensive, and before I got US stamps I was using IRCs for the SAEs, and these are quite expensive, too. All in all, though, I think I made more money from my one sale than I spent on postage. If I factor ink and paper (especially since I always forget to put headers and need to print again)... Well, I might still be in the green. ET |
| I like this Money-for-rejections idea. Stamps would work too. I suspect that so far I've spent more on postage than I've earned from sales. |
| Re: 3
:Off to the F&SF; board to join in.: Patrick Samphire |
| JaNell, I guess what you're saying is that accepting paper submissions is very suitable for horror magazines. :D
As for why it's not irony, but perfectly fitting, I can give the following reasons: Remember the "fiction" in science fiction. Editors will likely be willing to accept stories via any fictitious medium, but if you're going to real world communications, why would they care? Besides, the future is going to stay with paper-lookalikes, right? Electronic paper and such. The closest thing to that available today is real paper. Therefore editors must be asking for paper subs because they resemble the future tech most closely. Lastly, science fiction often portrays the problems with technology and why it's not the ultimate solution. It's a common theme. Editors know their genre well, and therefore feel that it's much better not to rely on advanced technology. ET |
| It's beyond me how, given environmental & economic factors, some editors *still* only take paper subs.
This *is* SF, right? High tech, the future, computers? Paper ms. submissions... The HORROR! Does an SF-genre editor demanding paper subs qualify as irony? Another peeve: Why is it so hard to define and properly use the word "irony"? |
| Melissa, these assumptions weren't even implied in what I wrote. All I'm saying is that at the very least common decency is for an editor who rejects my story to supply me with enough money to cover printing and sending out the next submission.
[And I'll hasten to add that this is all very much tongue in cheek -- which luckly doesn't affect typing.] Laurie, good idea. Seriously. Could actually work and be beneficial for all if editors got together with ink producers, got money from them for the advertising that's being done by sending out coupons, and saved some money for writers at the same time. The only problem I see is that writers will complain about getting such coupons with the rejections. (Writers will complain about anything, you know that.) ET |
| I have another idea. How about coupons that can be saved up to buy new printer ink cartridges whenever they get low? :) The cartridges just don't seem to last as long as they used to...
My rejections have been kind to me lately so I have little complaint other than I wish editors would buy my work instead of telling me I have great writing. My last three rejections have all told me variations of great read, well-written, etc. but no sales. :( |
| Actually, I like ET's idea about editors sending money with rejections. Not much. I'm not greedy. A couple dollars per rejection would be fine. ;) Justin |
| But, ET, that assumes two things-that a story that's not accepted on the first try is "worthless," and that an editor who rejects one story from an author will never buy a different one. I've sold stories that had been rejected by several markets, and I've had editors buy some stories from me, and not others. Each story's a clean slate.
Kiva, I'm sure he wouldn't mind. (and he's sold a novel, so I figure the attitude must pay off! ;)) I'm not at the agent stage yet. I figure I'll find one once I'm actually offered a contract. Right now my goal is to make a Pro sale. (then another, and another...) |
| Jamie, from what I've seen the Air Your Peeve topic is for any complaints whatsoever. It may be a nice idea to have such a topic that's dedicated to writing and submission matters. ET |
| Thanks, Kiva. Although, having just noticed this topic is under "Market Topics", I must apologise for airing a complaint without linking it even tenuously to a market.
So I'll have to return to the rejections in the hope of redeeming myself. I'd like to complain about markets rejecting my stories. This is clearly a mistake that needs to be corrected. I don't try to imply that editors lack the discerning taste to accept my jewels, but perhaps they make an occasional oversight. I'd like to suggest that in order to lessen the pain of not getting accepted, that editors send me money even for stories they reject. ET |
| Jamie, Jamie, this isn't just Air Your Peeve, it's Share Your Peeve. This one is with feeling. Kiva |
| ET: After having studied film and film screenwriting, I can only say everybody cites Star Wars as being the epitome of the perfect plot. I liked Star Wars, even admit to stressing over the storyline in my younger days, but, alas, I eventually grew up, like you. LOL. Thanks for sharing your gripe. Keep it up. Kiva |
| Melissa, right on! May I borrow your pal's mantra? Woah. It's good...to quote the Bruce Almighty. So what about you? You still casting the fishing line, or did you hook an agent? What was it like...waiting, and waiting. Do tell. Kiva |
| My complaint would be that we already have the Air Your Peeve topic for just such ventings. :) Jamie Rosen |
| I'd like to complain about discussion about classifications. There's one going now at the F&SF; forum on whether Star Wars is SF or fantasy. The classification issue is so not important, that it bugs me that people dedicate any time to it at all. Sadly I see these discussions too often, and they never come to any conculsion except people holding on to their opinion (since there really isn't any official definition and people can think what they will). Grrr... (Sorry, just needed to blow that steam. Thanks for offering me this topic to vent on.)
Regarding rejections, I don't see them as trophies. It's very easy to get lots of rejections. If I wanted to have a wall of rejections I don't think I'd have a problem getting there -- writing worthless stories isn't really a serious problem. That said, a signed rejection from a well known editor is kind of like an autograph. :) But one autograph from each editor is enough for me. :) ET |
| I have a writer friend whose mantra is "Rejections are trophies! Rejections are trophies!" |
| I just counted my agent and publisher rejects (if I tell you how many, I may have to kill you, LOL), and it gave me a sense of accomplishment. My gosh, have I been hard at work! What I once saw as a wall of rejection (yes, I tacked them on the wall) has become a badge of honor. How about you? |