Introduction: Of all the builds I've ever made, creating an effective multiclassed martial adept has been the most arduous. It's well worth the pain though, as you will see.
The Basic Idea: Martial adepts are broken into two classes: swordsages and non-swordsages. The non-swordsage classes are Crusader and Warblade. Why make this distinction? The answer lies in maneuvers known advancement and recovery of maneuvers. Both warblade and crusader share the ability to recouperate their maneuvers extremely quickly, meaning they almost never are wanting for a maneuver no matter how long the combat drags on. Swordsages are different. Their recovery rate is extremely slow (1 maneuver per round). So if a swordsage ever runs out of his maneuvers in an encounter he rapidly becomes worthless. Since maneuvers known and recovery methods are tracked seperately (according to martial adept class) the easy fix for a swordsage is to multiclass with a non-swordsage class so that the "backend" of an encounter is covered.
Multiclassing Base Martial Adept Classes: It's like creating a dual spell caster -- sort of. The advantage that is unique to martial adept classes is that they can choose maneuvers based on a composite Initiator Level. A single class martial adept gets 1 initiator level per martial adept level. A multiclass martial adept tracks each classes initiator level seperately but can add 1/2 of all the other classes level he has to his initiator level for that martial adept class. The example provided in the book is "a 7th level crusader/5th level swordsage has an initiator level of 9th for determining the highest level of maneuvers he can take as a crusader... As a swordsage, his IL is 8th..." Essentially, the sum of the parts is greater than the whole. Herein lies the advantage of multiclassing.
Prestige Classes: All prestige classes, except master of the nine, retard the maneuver progression of a swordsage, but are equivalent to that of a crusader or warblade. Thus it is wise to let a prestige class advance your warblade or crusader levels (as you lose nothing from it) rather than your swordsage levels. The exception is master of the nine -- this PrC is good for progression both classes. Depending on your build it may not be wise to use master of the nine though, as the feat pre-reqs for the class are very steep. Most of the pre-req feats, while not worthless, do not contribute in any significant way towards a feat tree.
Other Considerations: Multiclassing with base classes is delicate. Given the often feat starved nature of martial adepts, it's wise to choose human as your race. Half-elf (due to their any favored class feature) is another decent choice (if you don't like human for some reason). Otherwise, since no martial classes are the favored class of any race yet published, it will require the utmost care in class sequencing to avoid XP penalties. I typically prefer to avoid these problems all together and just stick with human. Believe me, the extra feat and skill point will be more than welcome. Also, I would strongly recommend against multiclassing in all three martial adept classes, as you'll end up spreading yourself too thin.
Leap Frogging Class Levels: Swordsage is best used, in my opinion, as a leapfrogging class. You basically use crusader or warblade as a base and then at specific levels you insert a level of swordsage. Since a swordsage always gains a new maneuver at every level (unlike crusaders or warblades which get maneuvers every other level) it allows you to cherry pick high level maneuvers from disciplines that are not available to normal warblades or crusaders (without burning feats). Below I will demonstrate a couple of leap frogging patterns:
Notation
X = non-swordsage class (like crusader or warblade)
S = swordsage class level
X# = Number of non-swordsage class levels
S# = Number of swordsage class levels
X+# = Number of additional non-swordsage class levels
S+# = Number of additional swordsage class levels
This particular pattern gives you 8 swordsage levels and 12 non-swordsage levels. You lose 2 base attack.
Your swordsage IL (at level 20) is 14, giving you access to 7th level swordsage maneuvers (you gain one such maneuver at 19 th level). This build will give you 7 readied swordsage maneuvers and 13 known swordsage maneuvers (and the ability to sub out 3 of them for higher level ones). Every time you gain a swordsage level (with the exception of your second swordsage level) you gain access to a new level of maneuvers.
If you use crusader, you gain a new maneuver(s) at levels 1, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18. You can trade out old maneuvers for new ones at levels 8, 11, 14, 17, 20. Your IL for crusader is 16, giving you acces to 8th level maneuvers. (You can get one 8th level maneuver at 20th level when you trade out a maneuver for a new one). You will know a total of 10 maneuvers and 3 stances.
If you use warblade, you gain a new maneuver(s) at levels 1, 5, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18. You can trade out old maneuvers for new ones at levels 8, 11, 14, 17, 20. Your IL for warblade is 16, giving you acces to 8th level maneuvers. (You can get one 8th level maneuver at 20th level when you trade out a maneuver for a new one).[/quote] You will know a total of 9 maneuvers and 3 stances.
What it's good for: This build grabs a lot of maneuvers early on and gives you quick access to the swordsage's AC bonus. You will lag behind your fellow martial adepts significantly with this progression (as far as highest level maneuver known is concerned). However, you will get a good mixture of many maneuvers and will have many more maneuvers available to you at the start of an encounter. It's a question of quantity over quality, as usual with a "dual caster". This well mixed progression grabs or replaces a maneuver/stance at almost every level (a warblade doesn't gain any new maneuvers at 6th level and a crusader does not receive a new maneuver/stance at 5th level).
This particular pattern gives you 6 swordsage levels and 14 non-swordsage levels. You lose 2 base attack.
Your swordsage IL (at level 20) is 13, giving you access to 6th level swordsage maneuvers (you gain one such maneuver at 18 th level). This build will give you 6 readied swordsage maneuvers and 11 known swordsage maneuvers (and the ability to sub out 2 of them for higher level ones). Every time you gain a swordsage level (with the exception of your second swordsage level) you gain access to a new level of maneuvers.
If you use crusader, you gain a new maneuver(s) at levels 1, 5, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19. You can trade out old maneuvers for new ones at levels 8, 11, 14, 17, 20. Your IL for crusader is 17, giving you acces to 9th level maneuvers. (You can get one 9th level maneuver at 20th level when you trade out a maneuver for a new one). You will know a total of 11 maneuvers and 3 stances.
If you use warblade, you gain a new maneuver at levels 1, 4, 5, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19. You can trade out old maneuvers for new ones at levels 6, 11, 14, 17, 20. Your IL for warblade is 17, giving you acces to 8th level maneuvers. (You can get one 9th level maneuver at 20th level when you trade out a maneuver for a new one).[/quote] You will know a total of 10 maneuvers and 3 stances.
What it's good for: In short, it gives you access to a single 9th level maneuver at 20th level. The maneuvers known are less evenly distributed than pattern 1, but it still grants quick access to the swordsage's AC bonus.
This particular pattern gives you 14 swordsage levels and 6 non-swordsage levels. You lose 4 base attack.
Your swordsage IL (at level 20) is 17, giving you access to 9th level swordsage maneuvers (you gain one such maneuver at 20 th level). This build will give you 9 readied swordsage maneuvers and 19 known swordsage maneuvers (and the ability to sub out 6 of them for higher level ones). Unlike the warblade/crusader dominant builds every swordsage level you receive you do not necessarily have access to a new level of maneuvers.
If you use crusader, you gain a new maneuver(s) at levels 1, 8, & 12. You can trade out old maneuvers for new ones at levels 11 & 15. Your IL for crusader is 13, giving you access to 6th level maneuvers. (You trade out one maneuver at 15th level for a 5th level maneuver, but to gain a 6th level maneuver you must take martial study at 18th level). You will know a total of 7 maneuvers and 2 stances. Your second crusader level (level 5) gives you access to a second stance (max level 1).
If you use warblade, you gain a new maneuver at levels 1, 5, 8, & 12. You can trade out old maneuvers for new ones at levels 11 & 15. Your IL for warblade is 13, giving you access to 6th level maneuvers. (You trade out one maneuver at 15th level for a 5th level maneuver, but to gain a 6th level maneuver you must take martial study at 18th level). You will know a total of 6 maneuvers and 2 stances (one at 1st level and of no higher than 4th level.)
What it's good for: With this progression you can cook the books just right so that your swordsage will end up with 4 attacks at 19th level, still get 9th level maneuvers by 20th level, and have a battery of reliable (and easily recovered) maneuvers from warblade/crusader. I think that warblade works best here, but crusader offers access to martial stance (heal 2 damage per hit) and opens up access to gaining the awesome Aura of Perfect Order via your 15th level feat (martial stance).
Essential Feats for the Multiclassed Martial Adept
Adaptive Style: According to a recent customer service answer this feat allows one not only change their readied maneuvers, but to recover all of them as well as a full-round action. This is a huge boon to swordsages.
Extra Granted Maneuver: With this feat your crusader maneuvers refresh a round faster and you have more options to choose from the first round of combat. Not bad at all.
Extra Readied Maneuver: For a build which uses little swordsage, this feat can help bolster and broaden the number of maneuvers available during an encounter. Nothing helps more than keeping your options wide open.
This is, of course, assuming maneuvers from swordsage will forfill prerequisites for Warblade and Crusader, correct? That might not be how it works. We'll have to ask customer service tomorrow.
Why not pick Swordsage at 1st level, btw? I don't know the Hit Dice for this class, but I do know it's 6+int skill points... I'd suppose it'd be a good start, isn't it true?
This is, of course, assuming maneuvers from swordsage will forfill prerequisites for Warblade and Crusader, correct? That might not be how it works. We'll have to ask customer service tomorrow.
All the pre-reqs say is that you must know a certain number and kind of maneuvers. A multiclass martial adept (MMA) knows many maneuvers, and that should suffice.
Why not pick Swordsage at 1st level, btw? I don't know the Hit Dice for this class, but I do know it's 6+int skill points... I'd suppose it'd be a good start, isn't it true?
Swordsages have nice skills, sure, but the martial adepts aren't really skill based characters. They are melee first and foremost, and the warblade's d12 HD is really attractive when you look at it like that.
Swordsages have nice skills, sure, but the martial adepts aren't really skill based characters. They are melee first and foremost, and the warblade's d12 HD is really attractive when you look at it like that.
Ehhh... I'm not so sure. Going with the Warblade first means you gain 3 extra HP than you normally would if you went swordsage first. Essentially, what you get for taking the Toughness feat. That's opposed to 8 skill points and having Listen available at first level for those first four.
Tough call, but I think given the choice, I'd take Swordsage first.
Actually, I knew what I was talking about, but in my head I was thinking d10 instead of d12. It would only be 2 extra HP. I was thinking three because I was thinking d10, I'm not used to working with D12's. Here's why.
First level - D12 maxed
Next level - D8 rolled (average 4.5)
Result: 16.5 average.
Compare to.
First level - D8 maxed
Next level - 12 rolled (average 6.5)
Result: 14.5
So yes, 8 skill points does seem more important than 2 HP to me.
The reason I like to put a full BAB class first is so that one can gain quick access to feats that require 1 BAB, like weapon finnesse. Otherwise it's not that important to have the warblade/crusader level first. Though I do prefer to start off with a more combat oriented character than work into a more versatile character.
Does anyone else think it might be useful to have an index showing the various maneuvers/stances together with their pre-requisites? When I'm working on multi-class builds that rely on Martial Study, I find myself constantly digging through the text to figure out which maneuvers/stances I qualify for given the number of maneuvers/stances I currently know. If there's interest, I can work on it over the week-end.
Interesting stuff, can we expect some example builds using prestige classes? Perhaps your idea of an optimized Master of Nine build?
I've been toying with a Swordsage 9/Warblade 6/Master of the Nine 5 build but would love for someone more adept than me make the most of it.
With the above, his initiator level for the SS is 17 at character level 20. I've got in a question for CustServ to see if PrCl Initiator levels apply to just one class or both. In any case the above build will have 28 Maneuvers Known, 16 Readied (woot!) and 8 Stances. I've also got in a q for CustServ regarding whether you can use manuevers for one class as prerequisites for another and whether each class can choose & ready identical maneuvers (that would be nice... ). The above build also has BAB +16 and reasonable HPs.
The only thing is that the MotN has some pretty steep entry requirements and you really want to make sure you take your 20th level as a MotN so you gain scoop up two 9th level maneuvers.
Though like I said earlier, it'd be nice to see someone who's good at builds to really make the most out of it.
Truth be told, I'm not a big fan of Mot9. It would be a nice class if the feat pre-reqs were'nt so bad.
The best I can think of is a monk/crusader/cleric/Ruby Knight/Mot9 This will give pretty good wis-synergy and can take advantage of the required unnarmed strike feat. Maybe throw in some of that ninja class for access to setting sun...
I actually put in a question to CustServ about the required Improved Unarmed Strike feat prerequisite as it seems to make no sense at all. You don't gain any unarmed perks with the PrC and the martial adepts are all weapon focussed anyway. Wepon Focus would make sense as a prereq. I suspect it's in error, but we'll see what CustServ has to say...
Crusader should be able to be used for the best recovery rate of all of the classes. If you ready only two maneuvers, then you've got your maneuvers granted and recovered every round for no action. With the Extra Granted Maneuver feat, that's bumped up to 3 maneuvers for free each round.
This is probably too limited of selection to be viable in most single-martial-adept-classed builds, but if you've got a martial PrC then you can throw select maneuvers on your crusader list to do tricks repeatedly without wasting the round afterwards that both the swordsage and the warblade (well, swift+normal attack used) require.
This has gotten me wondering about prestige-classing with multiple classes: whether RAW-wise you can learn a maneuver through, say, warblade IL progression of your PrC then have it be added to your crusader list. Any definitive quotes saying yea or nay on the matter?
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Crusader should be able to be used for the best recovery rate of all of the classes. If you ready only two maneuvers, then you've got your maneuvers granted and recovered every round for no action. With the Extra Granted Maneuver feat, that's bumped up to 3 maneuvers for free each round.
You can not leave empty manuver slots
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Where does it say that? The only references I've seen say you can ready x amount of maneuvers, not that you have to ready your maximum amount.
Annoyingly it doesn't say that anywhere. However, if you read the CustServ responses and the commentary on the Tricks/Combo/Library thread, you'll see that Richmud is merely repeating the wisdom found there.
Annoyingly it doesn't say that anywhere. However, if you read the CustServ responses and the commentary on the Tricks/Combo/Library thread, you'll see that Richmud is merely repeating the wisdom found there.
It confused me at first as well.
I rechecked them both. The Customer Service thread had nothing about whether you have to ready maneuvers and it seems that the previous points made about readying maneuvers were focused on readying multiple maneuvers or having duplicate manuevers between multiple classes- both of which are now interpreted to not be possible.
It is possible to be forced into having fewer maneuvers than there are to ready: take a martial PrC and apply an extra maneuver readied to a 1st-level warblade's selection while adding the extra maneuvers learned to another class. Given this, either the rule's extension is either impossible or you can ready fewer maneuvers than you have capacity. Given this, and that in every overview and class description that covers readying maneuvers it says you can ready X maneuvers, it would seem to be supported by RAW.
If you can ready the number of manuvers you are granted instead of the total the class ends up incredibly unbalanced, a heal every round is very close to unkillable by damage
With the above, his initiator level for the SS is 17 at character level 20. I've got in a question for CustServ to see if PrCl Initiator levels apply to just one class or both. In any case the above build will have 28 Maneuvers Known, 16 Readied (woot!) and 8 Stances. I've also got in a q for CustServ regarding whether you can use manuevers for one class as prerequisites for another and whether each class can choose & ready identical maneuvers (that would be nice... ). The above build also has BAB +16 and reasonable HPs.
Maneuvers known from one class count towards pre-requisites for all maneuvers, regardless where you get them from.
PrCs that advance IL fully apply to all martial adept base classes as far as I'm aware, making a multiclass Martial adept really want to get into a PrC post haste.
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Annoyingly it doesn't say that anywhere. However, if you read the CustServ responses and the commentary on the Tricks/Combo/Library thread, you'll see that Richmud is merely repeating the wisdom found there.
ToB, page 38, last sentence under Readying maneuvers:
Quote:
Unlike a wizard preparing her spells, you cannot choose to leave a readied maneuver slot unfilled.
So… I’m getting late to this post and know this is a dumb question but:
Let’s say I am a 1st level crusader with my 5 maneuvers… 1st round I get two to use, and at the 5th round I have all of them. If at the 6th round I haven’t use any of them, does all of them (minus two) go back to my withheld list?
You can also consider taking your first level of an Martial adept class at a late level. Because first level of Swordsage and Crusader have a big number of new Maneuver known, you could take a lot of high level maneuver. You can also choose a first high level stance.
The key levels are :
Ch. level 5 --> IL 3 (4/2+1) --> level 2 maneuvers and stance
Ch. level 9 --> IL 5 (8/2+1) --> level 3 maneuvers and stance
Ch. level 13 --> IL 7 (12/2+1) --> level 4 maneuvers and stance
Ch. level 17 --> IL 9 (4/2+1) --> level 5 maneuvers and stance
The one particulary interesting is take Swordsage 1 at character level 9. You have 6 maneuvers known. For meeting prerequisite, you could take level 2 maneuvers without prerequisite+level 3 maneuvers in 3 disciplines (3x2=6) + a great level 3 stance! Here an example for Shadow hand:
The Art of Making a Multi-Class Martial Adept
). The above build also has BAB +16 and reasonable HPs.
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