Kuro5hin.org: technology and culture, from the trenches
create account | help/FAQ | contact | links | search | IRC | site news
[ Everything | Diaries | Technology | Science | Culture | Politics | Media | News | Internet | Op-Ed | Fiction | Meta | MLP ]
We need your support: buy an ad | premium membership | k5 store

[P]
Nuclear Test in North Korea? (News)

By bjlhct
Tue Sep 14th, 2004 at 05:36:59 AM EST

News

On September 11, the South Korean news agency Yonhap reported a huge blast and a 2.5 mile diameter mushroom cloud in North Korea 6 miles southwest of Yongjori Missile Base...on Thursday.


Just recently, there have been reports that the Bush administration had received intelligence indicating preparations for a nuclear test, in accordance with the traditional extravagant military demonstrations on the 56th anniversary of North Korea's founding.

Nuclear tests leave many telltale signs. The explosion can be seen on seismographs around the world. Fallout can be detected with geiger counters hundreds of miles away from the test. For a few thousand dollars, one can order a 1-meter resolution satellite image of a resultant cloud, and the military can do much better. Indeed the US military has been able to detect nuclear tests in real time since early in the Cold War, and it has only gotten better at it since then.

In light of this, the reports that we have gotten seem very suspicious. Very suspicious indeed. Condoleeza Rice has said that "further analysis" is being done and suggested that the mushroom cloud was created by a forest fire. Forest fires can create mushroom clouds, but the Bush administration should have noticed the event without being told about it and should know - no, does know - with certainty whether or not this blast was nuclear.

North Korea and China have no comment.

The lack of positive or negative reports on seismic data and radiation readings is suspicious indeed. Some college seismographs show an anomaly at the time in question. The USGS seismic survey site is now back up.

Between the timing and the evidence, it seems clear that there was a nuclear test. Yet the Bush administration is reporting that though they do not know what it was, they think it was not a nuclear test. Rice's suggestion of a forest fire, however, is improbable enough to dismiss. Something fishy is going on.

Sponsors
Voxel dot net
o Managed Servers
o Managed Clusters
o Virtual Hosting


www.johncompanies.com
www.johncompanies.com

Looking for a hosted server? We provide Dedicated, Managed and Virtual servers with unparalleled tech support and world-class network connections.

Starting as low as $15/month
o Linux and FreeBSD
o No set-up fees and no hidden costs
o Tier-one provider bandwidth connections

Login
Make a new account
Username:
Password:

Note: You must accept a cookie to log in.

Poll
Nuclear Test?
o Yes, and there is a cover-up. 44%
o Yes, and the governments are telling the truth. 2%
o No, it was a forest fire. 2%
o No, it was conventional explosives. 35%
o No, it was something else. 16%

Votes: 99
Results | Other Polls

Related Links
o Google
o reported
o intelligence
o demonstrations
o better
o reports
o mushroom clouds
o seismographs
o USGS seismic survey
o More on News
o Also by bjlhct


View: Display: Sort:
Nuclear Test in North Korea? | 192 comments (167 topical, 25 editorial, 3 hidden)
There was no nuclear bomb (none / 0) (#192)
by rogun on Sat Sep 25th, 2004 at 11:01:10 AM EST

I find this likely to be propaganda by our own Government. If it were a nuclear explosion than we should have known shortly thereafter, but they supposedly didn't. I can think of a couple of reasons why they might do such a thing, but my favorite one is that the story was fed to the press to help Bush get re-elected, since we know his campaign is already using fear tactics because polls show that it helps them.

Update. (none / 0) (#188)
by bjlhct on Fri Sep 17th, 2004 at 02:46:00 AM EST
(bjlhct åt sneakemail døt com) http://www.blank.org/

N Korea agreed to a visit to the site, and they took the envoys to a construction site, but S Korea says it was a different site from the explosion.


*
[kur0(or)5hin http://www.kuro5hin.org/intelligence] - drowning your sorrows in intellectualism
Reminds me of the Far Side... (none / 0) (#176)
by brettd on Tue Sep 14th, 2004 at 11:14:42 PM EST

Some of the comments here remind me of the old Far Side cartoon with a bunch of generals around a war table.

"Now, Gentlemen, what if we throw a war and EVERYONE comes?"

Welcome to K5 (none / 0) (#173)
by bjlhct on Tue Sep 14th, 2004 at 10:37:32 PM EST
(bjlhct åt sneakemail døt com) http://www.blank.org/

Where a news article stays in the queue until it becomes outdated -

- and is then and only then autoposted.

*
[kur0(or)5hin http://www.kuro5hin.org/intelligence] - drowning your sorrows in intellectualism

12005 -> 2005 (none / 0) (#164)
by darkonc on Tue Sep 14th, 2004 at 06:27:10 PM EST
(samuel at bcgreen dot com) http://www.bcgreen.com/~samuel

But when you're dealing with a bureaucracy, you can never really be sure....
Killing a person is hard. Killing a dream is murder. : : : ($3.75 hosting)
Not a nuke test, they probably have them anyway (none / 1) (#155)
by cburke on Tue Sep 14th, 2004 at 03:50:20 PM EST

and no we're not going to be invading.

Next.

So let me get this straight (3.00 / 2) (#134)
by Mr.Surly on Tue Sep 14th, 2004 at 10:55:44 AM EST

Just recently, there have been reports that the Bush administration had received intelligence indicating preparations for a nuclear test...

So, the Bush Administration has intelligence indicating that a small dictatorship has weapons of mass destruction?

...fool me once, shame on -- shame on you. Fool me -- you can't get fooled again.

Of course it wasn't a nuke (1.50 / 2) (#133)
by Imma Troll on Tue Sep 14th, 2004 at 10:14:31 AM EST

If it was, that paragon of truth & accuracy, Dan Rather, would have told us!
Will somebody light my sig?
What exactly is being implied here? (none / 0) (#127)
by Rot 26 on Tue Sep 14th, 2004 at 12:33:52 AM EST
http://itsbeenconfirmed.com

So what exactly does this article propose is going on? That it wasn't a nuclear explosion but they are reluctant to confirm this because they want to instill some fear and uncertainty? Or is this article implying that maybe there was a nuclear explosion but they are not confirming it because they want to downplay it?

Really, I think that it's unlikely that either of those is true though, because it seems like despite what our government's administration might not want us to know, it seems like if there was conclusive evidence as to whether it was or wasn't a nuclear explosion, other countries would be able to figure it out. I mean, it's not like we're the only country with seismographs.
1: OPERATION: HAMMERTIME!
2: A website affiliate program that doesn't suck!
Proves the old adage: (3.00 / 2) (#118)
by acceleriter on Mon Sep 13th, 2004 at 10:31:59 PM EST

Don't fear him who wants an arsenal of nukes. Fear him who wants only one.

Mike's Paranoia & Recommended Reading (3.00 / 10) (#114)
by MichaelCrawford on Mon Sep 13th, 2004 at 08:19:52 PM EST
(crawford@goingware.com) http://www.goingware.com/tips/

I have a bachelor's degree in physics. A popular game among undergraduate physics majors is to try and figure out how to design a nuclear bomb.

Something that has kept me up all night worrying on more than one occassion is the realization that, in some respects, building a nuclear bomb is not really all that hard. It takes a lot of effort and investment, but it's not really rocket science. Not anymore.

Think of it this way: the two A-bombs that killed almost 200,000 people in Japan and forced a sudden end to World War II were built with the technology of the early 1940's.

Do you know what it was they called a "computer" at Los Alamos? It was a guy sitting at a desk with a table of logarithms and a mechanical adding machine. They'd have a whole big room full of these guys to calculate numerical solutions to differential equations.

It wasn't until after World War II that the first electronic computers were built. From the very start these were brought to bear on the problem of designing more powerful weapons, but even these were orders of magnitude slower, and had orders of magnitudes less memory than today's desktop computers.

You want to design a nuke? Get someone with a PhD in physics and give him a Linux box with Mathematica and MATLAB. You'll have your design in no time.

Today's modern nuclear weapons factories enrich uranium through diffusion of a gaseous uranium compound. It's a very difficult, tricky process, and has to be done on an enormous scale to produce significant quantities. But that's not how they did it back during the Los Alamos days. They used large mass spectrometers, devices they called calutrons.

They're hard to get working right too, but in principle they are very simple - you send a beam of electrically charged uranium atoms through a magnetic field, created by a large electromagnet. The charged particles travel a curved path, bent by the magnetic field, with the more massive isotopes traveling a somewhat less curved trajectory. At the end of the path you collect the material on a metal plate. One side of the blob produced will be somewhat enriched. Scrape it off and run it through again.

Fissile uranium occurs plentifully in nature. You just have to dig it up out of the ground. It's not concentrated enough to explode, but all you need to enrich it to bomb grade is a large industrial plant and lots of electricity.

The industrial facilities and electic capacity of the 1940's United States are within reach of many third world countries of the early 21st century.

Scientific American published an article a while back about what the UN inspectors found in Iraq after the first war. Underground facilities full of calutrons, powered by underground cables that were laid over a hundred miles from the power plants that fed them - see, so know one would suspect.

Manhattan project scientists filed a number of top-secret patents that described ways to make the calutrons work better. But with the invention of gas diffusion, these patents were declassified because the technique was thought to be obsolete. Copies of these now-publicly-available patents were also found in Iraq.

Fissile plutonium does not occur in nature. You have to make it in a reactor, and it is produced only in tiny quantities so it takes a long time. The bombs are hard to make, with explosive lenses and a delicately balanced initiator that starts off the reaction.

But to make a uranium bomb, you just shoot a chunk of uranium out a cannon into another chunk of uranium so the two of them form a critical mass. Simple as pie.

These kinds of bombs are often referred to in the press as "crude" and "primitive" compared to the modern, more compact and much more powerful weaponry possessed by Russia and the US. But it was two such crude and primitive bombs that rained Hellfire over Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Now for the reading I promised:

I decided to finally finish my degree, and enter graduate school, as a result of reading The Making of the Atomic Bomb. As I finished the book, I said to myself, "Hey, I could do that", and went back to school.

I haven't read the hydrogen bomb book yet, but I looked through all the pictures while browsing in a bookstore. Especially disturbing are two pictures of the New York City skyline. On one is superimposed the mushroom cloud of a Hiroshima sized A-bomb, of such a size it could destroy the center of the city. On the other is placed the blast of a hydrogen bomb, so much bigger that it would vaporize New York in its entirety.

It really makes you stop to think: the bombs dropped on Japan were fifteen kiloton devices, equivalent to the explosive power of fifteen thousand tons of TNT. But hydrogen bombs are measured in MEGATONS. The first H-bomb test in the Pacific blew an island clean off the map and almost killed the observers who thought they were at a safe distance. I understand the most powerful bomb ever, tested by the Soviets, had a yield of I think 56 megatons.

There's a little joke I used to tell people, back in 1994, when the North Koreans were up to no good. I wasn't doing so well mentally, and was deeply worried, not just about the Koreans, but about every country that might have reason to want to become a nuclear power. I used to laugh in a manic sort of way when I would tell people. I felt it was my personal responsibility to warn the public so we wouldn't all get blown up.

Q: What did they call the first hydrogen bomb?

A: Mike.

Thank you for your attention.

-- Mike


-- "You're not as big an asshat as everyone seems to think." - Kurosawa Nagaya.


Bullshit (none / 1) (#113)
by jope on Mon Sep 13th, 2004 at 08:11:32 PM EST

Why would anyone want to conduct such a test on or over the ground when this will mean lots of radiation and other problems in a large area and when it could also be done underground? The mere presence of the "mushroom cloud" is strong evidence that it must have been some conventional explosion IMO. Whatever the outcome, that article will be completely outdated and wrong in a few days.

If there's a kerning of truth to this story. (none / 1) (#93)
by SIGNOR SPAGHETTI on Mon Sep 13th, 2004 at 04:03:10 PM EST

Then quite possibly it is the bang that started the New Roman Times.

--
Stop dreaming and finish your spaghetti.

Well... (none / 0) (#68)
by BJH on Mon Sep 13th, 2004 at 08:17:24 AM EST

...news reports in Japan right now are talking about a possible military coup (although the NK foreign minister is saying that the explosion was "blasting for a new power plant", something I find a little hard to believe...).

Are we sheep? (2.33 / 3) (#66)
by danharan on Mon Sep 13th, 2004 at 06:56:53 AM EST
(chebuctonianNO@PORKgmail.com)

Colin Powell has been making comments about the draft, and now questions about whether this explosion is nuclear.

Both are complete BS, but serve effectively to whip us into a panic - dare I say terrify us?

Scared people are herded with ease. Serious discussion about the evidence for obviously far-fetched theories (WMDs? ICBM attacks?) only serve to reinforce that fear, since the threats appear plausible.

Baaa! Baaa! nucular tests! Baaa! Baaa!

We should be telling the paranoid war-mongers to fuck off with their scare tactics already. We need to ridicule them every chance we get.

didn't you get the memo? (2.87 / 8) (#62)
by vivelame on Mon Sep 13th, 2004 at 06:07:04 AM EST

it can't be a nuclear test, since North Korea isn't slated for invasion.

--
Jonathan Simon: "When the autopsy of our democracy is performed, it is my belief that media silence will be given as the primary cause of death."
I bet... (none / 0) (#58)
by dimaq on Mon Sep 13th, 2004 at 04:47:40 AM EST
(nobody@dev.null.org)

...the yanks noticed something suspicious (or cool or nuclear or the dearest leader's fav. car or something) and dropped a large (conventional) bomb on it. thus the location (some missile site you say?), thus the uneasiness in reports...

the only question is why there is no violent protest against the incident from noth korea :))

Business (1.00 / 3) (#54)
by SanSeveroPrince on Mon Sep 13th, 2004 at 03:59:17 AM EST
(egon@fuckspammers.zenofhate.com) http://www.zenofhate.com

His own. US. Should mind.

After reading your article, I have decided to conduct nuclear tests in my backyard, for the sole purpose of telling the CIA to mind their own fucking business when they come knocking at my door asking what that was.

----

Life is a tragedy to those who feel, and a comedy to those who think


It's infowar! (3.00 / 4) (#51)
by R Mutt on Mon Sep 13th, 2004 at 03:53:59 AM EST

No flash. No gamma rays. No seismograph readings (for that place and time, see the debunking in other comments).

Conclusion: it's info-war! A cunning North Korean plot to paralyse the internet with hysterical conspiracy theories.
----
Coward... Asshole... from the start you kept up the appearance of objectively posting interesting links.

N. Korea's story (2.72 / 11) (#50)
by bobsquatch on Mon Sep 13th, 2004 at 03:05:51 AM EST

The country's foreign minister, Paek Nam-sun, said the blast was in fact the deliberate demolition of a mountain as part of a huge, hydro-electric project.

(Not that I'm saying we should take N. Korea's statements at face value, heavens, no. I'm just sayin' what they're a-sayin', tha's all.)

Seismograph Link (none / 1) (#46)
by bjlhct on Mon Sep 13th, 2004 at 02:40:05 AM EST
(bjlhct åt sneakemail døt com) http://www.blank.org/

The chart I linked to is the 3 day old graph. As a new day came, that graph became the 4 day old graph. These graphs are the Benioff Short Period E-W Component graphs on http://photon.physics.hmc.edu/research/geo/seismo.html.

*
[kur0(or)5hin http://www.kuro5hin.org/intelligence] - drowning your sorrows in intellectualism
+1 FP (2.10 / 10) (#40)
by fleece on Mon Sep 13th, 2004 at 12:58:49 AM EST

A poorly researched conspiracy theory that offers no insight whatsoever. The very cornerstone of K5



~ kuro5hin is a collection of people in various degree of mental instability ~

Pop Rocks. (2.83 / 6) (#32)
by Russell Dovey on Sun Sep 12th, 2004 at 10:56:16 PM EST
(antipaganda@gmail.com) http://www.flickr.com/photos/80291310@N00/4079985

The Koreans are planning to subvert the world through a new and deadly form of Pop Rocks that, when used by American children, explode massively in the way we've seen.

I only hope that Willy Wonka and his cybrog Oompa-Loompas can prevail against this threat.

"Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light." - Spike Milligan

Could be a munitions dump (3.00 / 5) (#30)
by wiredog on Sun Sep 12th, 2004 at 10:55:22 PM EST
(my username at gmail dot com)

In the 70's a Soviet Munitions facitily at Severomorsk blew up and the explosion was powerful enough to be picked up on early warning satellites and seismic monitors.

If it was a nuke, expect the Pacific Rim to go to hell in a handbasket (in terms of diplomacy and politics) in a hurry.

If North Korea has nukes, then Japan will quickly realize that the best option they have is a reliable deterrent. So Japan will develop its own nuclear weapons. They already have ICBMs (if a rocket can put a satellite in orbit, it can send a warhead on a sub-orbital flight).

Japan is not popular amongst its neighbors. Long memories over there, and things that are difficult to forget. A nuclear armed Japan means a nuclear armed Taiwan, and South Korea also (even more than North Korea having nukes). The PRC already has nukes and ICBMs.

It could get very interesting over there.

Wilford Brimley scares my chickens.
Phil the Canuck

Ooo, I know! (3.00 / 2) (#28)
by thepictsie on Sun Sep 12th, 2004 at 10:40:14 PM EST

A really, really big grain silo exploded! Cuz, y'know, those cause mushroom clouds, too!

Look, a distraction!

could it have been a fuel-air explosive? (nt) (none / 0) (#27)
by pyramid termite on Sun Sep 12th, 2004 at 10:04:07 PM EST
(termite@chartermi.net) http://www.xanga.com/skin.asp?user=pyramidtermite


On the Internet, anyone can accuse you of being a dog.
Nuclear proliferation double standards (2.25 / 4) (#24)
by marinel on Sun Sep 12th, 2004 at 09:01:33 PM EST

What baffles me is how everyone is talking (or not) about whether Israel or Pakistan (or North Korea or Iran or even Iraq once upon a time) are building nukes and whether they should be ignored, frowned upon, pressured, sanctioned or plainly bombed into submission. My question is why is it not OK anymore to test nukes? Is it because the big boys don't want just any chump in their elite club, they are hypocrites when they demand of others not to even try it and they will administer some alley justice whenever it suits them? Or is it because the UN had written so on a piece of gold-leafed FrancoAngloRussoSinoAmerican TP and the UN word is the new gospel when you look at it from the right angle? Which is it?

Oh yeah, I also find it highly ironic that Germany and Japan claim they will not build nukes, although it is known by their pardners, that nothing could really stop them if they wanted to, since both countries have the tech expertise, the right parts and the nasty goo that makes it go boom.
--
Proud supporter of Students for an Orwellian Society

What I think it might have been (3.00 / 12) (#21)
by MichaelCrawford on Sun Sep 12th, 2004 at 08:36:46 PM EST
(crawford@goingware.com) http://www.goingware.com/tips/

Just before the first atomic test at Alamagordo, New Mexico, in 1945, an enormous pile of conventional explosives was set off right next to where the first a-bomb would explode a few days later.

I think the purpose of that was to calibrate the yield of the a-bomb. It was, if I recall correctly, fifteen kilotons (the explosive energy of fifteen thousand tons of TNT).

What better way to measure a-bomb yield than by comparing it to the actual power of a few kilotons of explosive. Sit some ways away with a seismograph and compare the needle wiggles.

Also, more recently, the US has used large quantities of explosives to simulate the blast from nuclear weapons, without having to violate the atmospheric test ban treaty. For example I read an article in which they tested the survivability of some mobile ICBM launchers by setting of an enormous hemispherical pile of ammonium nitrate right next to a prototype launcher.

If I'm right, then expect to see an actual nuke test soon.


-- "You're not as big an asshat as everyone seems to think." - Kurosawa Nagaya.


I'd like to propose an alternative (2.50 / 6) (#16)
by Kasreyn on Sun Sep 12th, 2004 at 07:45:59 PM EST
(screw email, AIM me or post a reply) http://www.livejournal.com/users/kasreyn

but I don't know enough about the science of it... remember the Tunguska explosion in Russia close to a century ago?

Can someone who knows more about this than me, tell us whether the information could fit with a meteor impact in N. Korea? It's possible N. Korea would cover that up, out of a sense of pride and not wanting to accept or even be offered aid by other countries.

If it IS a nuke, I think the Bush Administration is doing the only smart thing I have ever, ever seen them do. They know that given their former tough-guy stance on N. Korea, to maintain an illusion of consistency they would have to get embroiled in this nuke thing, which of course N. Korea would stonewall. More inspectors and deadlines? Right now Americans are VERY sensitive to ideas like that. We're already in one war we're sick to death of.

My guess is that it was a nuke, and the Bush Administration is hoping as hard as they can that it will just all go away until after the elections.

Of course, I could be wrong, and things could move swiftly to a war footing. In which case, the same pussy greybeards in the Democratic party who got Al to back down, will push Kerry to "support the president" and throw the election. After all, what do they care? There are always the mine shafts with ten nubile child-bearing women apiece for them. :P


-Kasreyn


"You'll run off to Zambuti to live with her in a village of dirt huts, and you will become their great white psycho king." -NoMoreNicksLeft, to Baldrson
gamma-ray burst not detected (3.00 / 7) (#15)
by Lode Runner on Sun Sep 12th, 2004 at 07:43:07 PM EST
(your quality product could be endorsed here)

That's why the government's so confident it wasn't a nuke. Satellites and other devices capable of detecting these bursts have been in place for decades in order to enforce test-ban treaties. Numerous astronomical observatories are also capable of detecting terrestial activity in the far-UV part of the spectrum (x-ray to gamma-ray).

As for the mushroom cloud, they can be created by large conventional explosions. Mushroom cloud but no GRB = not a nuke.

Pointless (2.66 / 3) (#13)
by Peahippo on Sun Sep 12th, 2004 at 07:20:12 PM EST
(peahippo@hotmail.com) http://peahippo.tripod.com/

This article is academic. Clearly the US Government is dragging its feet with recognizing what's happened (today is Sep 12, and this explosion took place Sep 9th). What is really required is atmospheric sampling done in Northern Japan by a variety of scientists, professional and amateur. Assuming those aren't corrupted by the Jap government in whatever game America is trying to play now, we'll have unavoidable results in a week or so. If it was a nuke, then not only will radioactive fallout be detected in N. Japan, but they will also be able to classify the material source (if in the catalog).

[misbehaves on Slashdot as LaCosaNostradamus]
Same thing evryone thought this morning. (none / 0) (#12)
by hubrix on Sun Sep 12th, 2004 at 07:18:00 PM EST
(hubrix@don'tspammehere.com)

Mention that now we will attack "terrorist" Korea
I signed.
Easy (2.83 / 6) (#8)
by trhurler on Sun Sep 12th, 2004 at 06:58:52 PM EST
(abuse@127.0.0.1) file:///dev/zero

A 3-4km diamater mushroom cloud AND a crater(there are satellite photos of this, supposedly,) combined and occuring during major military demonstrations and celebrations have only a few possible meanings. One of them is a nuclear test. Yes, it is POSSIBLE that this is something else. Not likely though. For instance, a huge explosion caused by improper materials and/or munition storage.

The most likely explanation is nuclear testing. Why would the US cover this up? Simple: as bad as it may sound, the best thing to do if it WAS a nuclear test is NOT the thing that will be done if it is publicly announced as such.

--
'God dammit, your posts make me hard.' --LilDebbie

Nuclear Test in North Korea? | 192 comments (167 topical, 25 editorial, 3 hidden)
View: Display: Sort:

kuro5hin.org

[XML]
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. The Rest © 2000 - 2005 Kuro5hin.org Inc.
See our legalese page for copyright policies. Please also read our Privacy Policy.
Kuro5hin.org is powered by Free Software, including Apache, Perl, and Linux, The Scoop Engine that runs this site is freely available, under the terms of the GPL.
Need some help? Email help@kuro5hin.org.
If you can read this, you are sitting too close to your screen.

Powered by Scoop create account | help/FAQ | mission | links | search | IRC | YOU choose the stories! K5 Store by Jinx Hackwear Syndication Supported by NewsIsFree