Iomesus
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Posted by PeterH // Sat, Nov 19, 2005 2:01 PM
Is it possible to develop games for the XBox 360 without buying the development kit? I mean, I've heard that you can transfer files to and from the XBox to the PC, so what is stopping you transfering a game file.
This isn't for commercial use, just for experimentation purposes. Would it not help new talent to get into the gaming industry, and isn't that what people want?
If not, is it the same story for PS3 and PSP? I can't see anyway for a person like me to even think about giving it a try without making a major commitment (getting myself employeed by a gaming company).
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No.
Nintendo was apparently going to get something going.
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MS doesn't allow unsigned code to run on their consoles, so you'll have
to wait for the mod chips to come out, and then use a pirated version
of the SDK. Thats what the xbox 1 hobbiests do. MS doesn't sell xbox SDKs to individuals.
If you want to do legit hobbiest game development, I recomend getting a
Dreamcast or a GBA. I personally recomend the Dreamcast, since it can
boot off of regular CD-Rs.
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Manip
Life's too short for chess.
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Or Java on a lot of mobile phones (cell phones).
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Beer28
I contend Channel9 is a covert research project
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The PS3 will have a hard drive and linux, so you can use open source
game OpenGL sdk's and or something like Torque which is $99. I have a
license for that.
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=23878
This should make the wildest dreams of garage game dev's possible, finally.
A brand new top of the line console you can code OGL games for.
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XNA Home |
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XNA is Microsoft's game development platform. Its mission is to enable developers to help contain costs while allowing developers to create better games, faster and across consumer platforms. By integrating the best innovations from across Microsoft with the best innovations in game development from across the industry, XNA is targeted to help contain the skyrocketing development costs and allow developers to concentrate on the unique content that differentiates their games. |
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Strategically, XNA covers three synergistic areas: Content Creation, Production Processes and Game Technologies. XNA is a long term commitment from Microsoft to partner with the game industry; expect to see familiar technologies improved and new technologies created in each of the three areas as we continually address the needs of game development in the HD Era. |
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 | Beer28 wrote:
The PS3 will have a hard drive and linux, so you can use open source
game OpenGL sdk's and or something like Torque which is $99. I have a
license for that.
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=23878
This should make the wildest dreams of garage game dev's possible, finally.
A brand new top of the line console you can code OGL games for.
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No.
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Beer28
I contend Channel9 is a covert research project
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| BenZilla wrote:
No.
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And why not?
or is this just a "no, that's impossible", they couldn't have possibly
made it so people can homebrew games on a next gen console knee jerk
response?
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| Beer28 wrote:
| BenZilla wrote:
No.
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And why not?
or is this just a "no, that's impossible", they couldn't have possibly
made it so people can homebrew games on a next gen console knee jerk
response?
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Look it up.
I'll start you off, the PS1 and PS2 were both linux machines, and then look at how console makers actually make their money.
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Beer28
I contend Channel9 is a covert research project
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| BenZilla wrote:
Look it up.
I'll start you off, the PS1 and PS2 were both linux machines, and then look at how console makers actually make their money.
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that's irrelevant. If they ship PS3 with a working version of linux on
a harddrive and X server, how in the world are they going to stop
people from running OGL and games?
Go for something far fetched if you have to.
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Minh
Does this make my head look fat?
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| Beer28 wrote:
| BenZilla wrote:
Look it up.
I'll start you off, the PS1 and PS2 were both linux machines, and then look at how console makers actually make their money.
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that's irrelevant. If they ship PS3 with a working version of linux on
a harddrive and X server, how in the world are they going to stop
people from running OGL and games?
Go for something far fetched if you have to.
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Just like the Xbox 360. MS & Sony can block programs from
running if the programs aren't signed. In the Xbox 360, it's a hardware
solution & no doubt in the PS3, too. I just don't see Sony, a top
or 2nd place console manufacturer doing this. There's just too much
invested money to open it up for any Tom, Dick, & Sally. PC is
where it's at!
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The way Microsoft stopped people running homebrew games(untill cracked)
And a PS3 witha harddrive is still unconfirmed(waving on the side of no to keep the immense cost of the beast down)
How are you going to run hombrew games without a hardrive?
And again, how do console makers make their money from consoles, and why would it be bad if we could port over home brew games.
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Beer28
I contend Channel9 is a covert research project
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| Minh wrote:
Just like the Xbox 360. MS & Sony can block programs from
running if the programs aren't signed. In the Xbox 360, it's a hardware
solution & no doubt in the PS3, too. I just don't see Sony, a top
or 2nd place console manufacturer doing this. There's just too much
invested money to open it up for any Tom, Dick, & Sally. PC is
where it's at!
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So you're saying they're going to let X run for linux right? Then they're going to disable hardware acceleration for GL?
What about people watching videos or using GL for other reasons?
I don't believe this is even possible.
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Minh
Does this make my head look fat?
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| Beer28 wrote:
So you're saying they're going to let X run for linux right? Then they're going to disable hardware acceleration for GL?
What about people watching videos or using GL for other reasons?
I don't believe this is even possible.
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I'm saying that Sony is extremely embarassed that the PS3 didn't come
out before the Xbox 360. And they are on a campaign to talk up the PS3
to retain some interest for the their console. Whatever they're saying
right now can't be taken seriously. From it's a privilege to own a $600
PS3, to using your PS3 to edit movies. They can say all those things
because they don't have to deliver, yet.
Look at the PS2 Linux kit. You could order a special PS2 from Sony that
has security turned off. And you can build games for the PS2. The only
thing is your homebrew games won't work on regular PS2's. They'd
probably continue that. Although, we have professional game developers
grumbling that the PS3 is hard to develop for. What of the hobbyists?
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Beer28
I contend Channel9 is a covert research project
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| Minh wrote:
I'm saying that Sony is extremely embarassed that the PS3 didn't come
out before the Xbox 360. And they are on a campaign to talk up the PS3
to retain some interest for the their console. Whatever they're saying
right now can't be taken seriously. From it's a privilege to own a $600
PS3, to using your PS3 to edit movies. They can say all those things
because they don't have to deliver, yet.
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OK, I understand now, you're saying that they're lying, that there
won't be a linux hard drive with the PS3 that runs X and OGL. That they
made it up.
I hope you're wrong, and if you are, it's going to be stupid easy to write homebrew games for the PS3
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Minh
Does this make my head look fat?
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| Beer28 wrote:
OK, I understand now, you're saying that they're lying, that there
won't be a linux hard drive with the PS3 that runs X and OGL. That they
made it up.
I hope you're wrong, and if you are, it's going to be stupid easy to write homebrew games for the PS3
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Me = edit happy.
Look at the PS2 Linux kit. You could order a special PS2 from Sony that
has security turned off. And you can build games for the PS2. The only
thing is your homebrew games won't work on regular PS2's. They'd
probably continue that. Although, we have professional game developers
grumbling that the PS3 is hard to develop for. What of the hobbyists?
If you can put your distaste for MS aside, Xbox Live Arcade is much
more like what you're looking for... They've got Torque game running on
there already.
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Beer28
I contend Channel9 is a covert research project
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| Minh wrote:
Me = edit happy.
Look at the PS2 Linux kit. You could order a special PS2 from Sony that
has security turned off. And you can build games for the PS2. The only
thing is your homebrew games won't work on regular PS2's. They'd
probably continue that. Although, we have professional game developers
grumbling that the PS3 is hard to develop for. What of the hobbyists?
If you can put your distaste for MS aside, Xbox Live Arcade is much
more like what you're looking for... They've got Torque game running on
there already.
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But the PS3 SDK gamers have to use the Cell chip, people using
OGL on top of linux wouldn't have to do any of that to develop games,
they could develop it exactly the same as on x86.
If they use an engine they don't even have to write code, they can just use the game script as usual.
So I'm unclear on your logic there. In the articles about PS3 linux,
they didn't say it would be a "special edition". They said they're
selling the drive as a peripheral. That means alot of people could
potentially have it and make a whole homebrew PS3 thing possible.
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Minh
Does this make my head look fat?
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| Beer28 wrote:
But the PS3 SDK gamers have to use the Cell chip, people using
OGL on top of linux wouldn't have to do any of that to develop games,
they could develop it exactly the same as on x86.
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If they're writing code targeting OGL, at the very least, they'd still
need the Cell C++ compiler. That'd have to come from the PS3 SDK --
until someone port gcc for the Cell.
| Beer28 wrote:
If they use an engine they don't even have to write code, they can just use the game script as usual.
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True. On a related note, the Torque people have ceased development on
their OGL engine -- and are now focused entirely on a DirectX engine.
So, they're clearly targeting PC & Xbox Live market. Chances are you'll never see Torque for the PS3.
| Beer28 wrote:
So I'm unclear on your logic there. In the articles about PS3 linux,
they didn't say it would be a "special edition". They said they're
selling the drive as a peripheral. That means alot of people could
potentially have it and make a whole homebrew PS3 thing possible.
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The
article didn't mention the "special edition", but the PS2 Linux kit was
sold at one point. Anything is possible, I guess. Even if they did sell
a HD w/ Linux pre-installed, you'd still need the SDK if you wanted to
do game programming. And it being a closed ecosystem, Sony won't let
you in. Or MS, or Nintendo. Hey, maybe the Phantom.
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Beer28
I contend Channel9 is a covert research project
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| Minh wrote:
If they're writing code targeting OGL, at the very least, they'd still
need the Cell C++ compiler. That'd have to come from the PS3 SDK --
until someone port gcc for the Cell.
True. On a related note, the Torque people have ceased development on
their OGL engine -- and are now focused entirely on a DirectX engine.
So, they're clearly targeting PC & Xbox Live market. Chances are you'll never see Torque for the PS3.
The
article didn't mention the "special edition", but the PS2 Linux kit was
sold at one point. Anything is possible, I guess. Even if they did sell
a HD w/ Linux pre-installed, you'd still need the SDK if you wanted to
do game programming. And it being a closed ecosystem, Sony won't let
you in. Or MS, or Nintendo. Hey, maybe the Phantom.
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Right now IBM now has Linux and GCC compiler ported over completely to the Cell
arch. It still is mostly PowerPC code
http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/power/cell/
How do you think linux is going to run on it?
http://www.garagegames.com/products/1
Linux
Pentium 500, 128 MB RAM
NVIDIA TNT2 or better 3D Graphics Accelerator, Linux-supported sound card
XFree86 4.0 or newer with NVIDIA OpenGL drivers
glibc 2.2 or newer (e.g.: Redhat 7.x+, Mandrake 8.x+, Debian 3.0+)
SDL version 1.2 or newer (1.2.3 or later is recommended)
OpenAL Runtime or SDK Installation
Mesa3D version 3.4 or newer (3.4.2 or later recommended)
Supported Compilers: GNU make and g++ (version 2 or 3)
BTW: I believe OGL is C not C++, though I've never tinkered with the src to those libraries for any reason.
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Beer28
I contend Channel9 is a covert research project
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"The
article didn't mention the "special edition", but the PS2 Linux kit was
sold at one point. Anything is possible, I guess. Even if they did sell
a HD w/ Linux pre-installed, you'd still need the SDK if you wanted to
do game programming. And it being a closed ecosystem, Sony won't let
you in. Or MS, or Nintendo. Hey, maybe the Phantom."
I didn't address this point, no you wouldn't need the SDK if they
shipped a harddrive with linux, because linux would be the platform
that your game would run on. You'd need the OGL libs and the video card
drivers from nvidia, which are downloadable on their website.
Your game script would sit on top of the game engine and the game
engine on top of OGL, and that on top of linux in the stack, no sdk.
PS- If Nvidia doesn't release Cell compiled driver bins, then go into
the PS3 rom or program addr's and rip the driver bin out from the
module start to it's length
and shove it into an RPM. End of story. (you know their game OS is a
linux derivative, so the bin ripped driver will, I'd guess maybe 90%
chances be compatible with vanilla linux)
Also, the source to their kernel interfaces is in their installer bin
on their site(it builds it when you install), so you could build the
same interfaces for the cell linux kernel with the source code, if the
driver bin is compatible with cell compiled linux.
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Minh
Does this make my head look fat?
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Yeah, I guess that makes sense. Developers have to be using something to do PS3 game right now.
That's x86 Linux, right? Who's going to convert Torque to Cell? This is what GarageGames is working on right now:
The Torque Shader Engine
(Windows only)
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Beer28
I contend Channel9 is a covert research project
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| Minh wrote:
That's x86 Linux, right? Who's going to convert Torque to Cell? This is what GarageGames is working on right now:
The Torque Shader Engine
(Windows only)
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I spoke to the owner of torque a couple months back when I purchased
the engine, he said an OpenGL 2 shader engine is on it's way in the
next few months. Back when they made that product, he said OGL didn't
have pixel shading support and some of the new features that the OGL2
spec has today. So now that it has that support, he said they should be
releasing something for OGL for shading.
As for Torque on Cell, you get the source code to the game engine when
you buy a license, so you can recompile it for any arch. That's not
even counting all the free engines and game libs out there like plib
people could use.
Stuff like supertux and tuxracer and most of the stuff on
happypenguin.org would simply compile to the cell ops with a gcc cell
port which IBM has already completed.
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Minh
Does this make my head look fat?
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| Beer28 wrote:
Your game script would sit on top of the game engine and the game
engine on top of OGL, and that on top of linux in the stack, no sdk.
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Well, yeah -- but what game engine? Like I said before, Torque is x86 & Mac only at this point.
| Beer28 wrote:
go into
the PS3 rom or program addr's and rip the driver bin out from the
module start to it's length
and shove it into an RPM. End of story.
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You forget the security check. If your .exe isn't signed by Sony's key,
it won't be loaded. And the code to do that is locked up, so ... no
snooping.
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Beer28
I contend Channel9 is a covert research project
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There are tons of game engines you can compile from the source for any arch, plib is one, there are lots of others.
Don't have time to dig them up now, visit happypenguin.org.
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