Because the alternative is worse
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Posted by AndyC // Mon, Mar 6, 2006 4:47 PM
Not seen this mentioned here yet, but it seems the EU might not have been playing entirely fair in their antitrust case.
Will be interesting to see how this develops...
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ChrisA
Get the facts, not the FUD
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 | AndyC wrote:
Not seen this mentioned here yet, but it seems the EU might not have been playing entirely fair in their antitrust case.
Will be interesting to see how this develops... |
If they didnt break the law in the first place this never would have happened.
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ScanIAm
Oh Look, It's a pretentious Goth Band
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| ChrisA wrote:
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AndyC wrote:
Not seen this mentioned here yet, but it seems the EU might not have been playing entirely fair in their antitrust case.
Will be interesting to see how this develops... |
If they didnt break the law in the first place this never would have happened. |
Exactly! I can't stand the fact that the EU keeps breaking the law!!!
Oh...nevermind.
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They'd better have some pretty substantial evidence--those are some strong allegations.
I've got mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, the EU's persistance in this case has almost been spiteful. Most of the parties have settled and I haven't seen any decision that would have a measureable impact on the industry; XP N has proven to be a complete waste of time. I am, however, somewhat baffled by how slow Microsoft has been in providing documentation (including that for the US agreement). I'm assuming that there must be some internal documentation which could be cleaned up for broader consumption.
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I'm going to ramble in this:
This whole charade reminds me of the Equalization of Opportunity Bill from the novel, Atlas Shrugged.
The EU is the perfect utopia for all the forces of socialism and wealth envy. The Europeans chose to put into place for themselves an economic timebomb way of life. Their populations are declining. A hostile immigrant culture that endangers thier very way of life is growing. They're on the verge of self-genocide and yet they take up the cause of American tech companies with a grudge against another American tech company.
Windows XP N should be evidence to everyone that the EC/EU is not serious.
Europeans are very quick to say "American companies are greedy" and see this as some sort of correction , but "greed" is nothing more than one's freedom.
How much freedom is there going to be in Europe in 50 years?
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imekon
I vant to suck your blood!
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| pacelvi wrote:
How much freedom is there going to be in Europe in 50 years?
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How much freedom will there be in the USA in five years?
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ScanIAm
Oh Look, It's a pretentious Goth Band
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| imekon wrote:
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pacelvi wrote:
How much freedom is there going to be in Europe in 50 years?
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How much freedom will there be in the USA in five years?
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57.3% +/- 2%
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Sabot
I'm a good person, oh but I can be wicked !
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Thank EU for keeping crooks like Microsoft at bay, please give more of my money to the French 'farmers' who don't actually farm anything.
My message to the EU is clear ... go spend your time working on more important issues like writing a new constitution.
OMG I feel so represented!
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| Sabot wrote:
Thank EU for keeping crooks like Microsoft at bay, please give more of my money to the French 'farmers' who don't actually farm anything.
My message to the EU is clear ... go spend your time working on more important issues like writing a new constitution.
OMG I feel so represented! |
What he said!
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| imekon wrote:
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pacelvi wrote:
How much freedom is there going to be in Europe in 50 years?
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How much freedom will there be in the USA in five years?
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The same we have now.
And Europe.. lets see.. banning headscarves, blasphemy laws, laws against "hate speech" (aka speech that offends leftists or Muslims), confisicatory taxation , plus each year the percentage of people who desire Sharia grows and grows. What are you folks going to do when the number of people who want sharia get the population numbers to do so? You going to deport them all? Take away their vote? In the meantime, the brain drain will accelerate as younger people are not going to want to live in such a place where the old culture is dead and a new hostile one is asserting itself, meanwhile, the welfare systems are unable to fullfill thier mission.
Europe has a disasterous future waiting for it.
So, go ahead, and respond to my question with a question. Denial of these problems wont be possible forever.
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Sabot
I'm a good person, oh but I can be wicked !
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| pacelvi wrote:
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imekon wrote:
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pacelvi wrote:
How much freedom is there going to be in Europe in 50 years?
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How much freedom will there be in the USA in five years?
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The same we have now.
And Europe.. lets see.. banning headscarves, blasphemy laws, laws against "hate speech" (aka speech that offends leftists or Muslims), confisicatory taxation , plus each year the percentage of people who desire Sharia grows and grows. What are you folks going to do when the number of people who want sharia get the population numbers to do so? You going to deport them all? Take away their vote? In the meantime, the brain drain will accelerate as younger people are not going to want to live in such a place where the old culture is dead and a new hostile one is asserting itself, meanwhile, the welfare systems are unable to fullfill thier mission.
Europe has a disasterous future waiting for it.
So, go ahead, and respond to my question with a question. Denial of these problems wont be possible forever.
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I have no object to a Sharia state if I can freely practice my right to being an Atheist in it.
My dream is to walk from one end of the world to the other and not be hated anywhere because I'm British, White, Male and an Atheist.
I am more than happy to listen to anyone's point of view, tolerate and accommodate as long as they show me the same courtesy.
I do not support all the actions of my Government and I will let my view be heard at the ballot box. I believe in democracy. I believe in free-speech, but I also believe in a very British saying "when in Rome, do as the Roman's do". This is called respect. Something that we need to start giving each other and that grows when the voilence stops.
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| Sabot wrote:
My dream is to walk from one end of the world to the other and not be hated anywhere because I'm British, White, Male and an Atheist. |
My question always is what do athiests think at the end of their lives (assuming they don't go unexpectedly)? Are unusual events passed off as mere "coincidences"? It's so much more complicated than that.
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| Sabot wrote:
I have no object to a Sharia state if I can freely practice my right to being an Atheist in it.
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According to the Quran, once a people are taken over by Muslims the choices for non-Muslims are:
- If you are not a Jew or Christian you either convert to Islam or be killed
- If you are Jew or Christian, you get to be a dhimi , which means you dont have to convert or be killed, but you have to pay a special tax and you essentially have no rights.
| Sabot wrote:
My dream is to walk from one end of the world to the other and not be hated anywhere because I'm British, White, Male and an Atheist.
I am more than happy to listen to anyone's point of view, tolerate and accommodate as long as they show me the same courtesy.
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The Muslims demand every drop of respect from others yet display none to other people.
Today we're supposed to be "sensitive" to their (false) rule about not depicting Mohemmed because it offends Muslims. And what do offended Muslims do? Burn down national embassies and call for the death of the cartoonists.
What's the next thing the rest of the world is supposed to do in order to appease the sensibilities of Muslims? Stop eating pork? Kill homosexuals?
| Sabot wrote:
I do not support all the actions of my Government and I will let my view be heard at the ballot box. I believe in democracy. I believe in free-speech, but I also believe in a very British saying "when in Rome, do as the Roman's do". This is called respect. Something that we need to start giving each other and that grows when the voilence stops. |
And what happens when the other person has absolutely no intention of respecting you and in fact believes you are an impedent for the way Allah decrees people should live?
It's well and dandy to live and let live, that's my view as well.. but live and let live implies the other person doesn't want to kill you.
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| pacelvi wrote:
The Muslims demand every drop of respect from others yet display none to other people.
Today we're supposed to be "sensitive" to their (false) rule about not depicting Mohemmed because it offends Muslims. And what do offended Muslims do? Burn down national embassies and call for the death of the cartoonists. |
To be fair here, it should be noted that most of that rioting was because a few extremists incited the crowds. Some of the cartoons were faked and would have been offensive to anybody. It is interesting how people's perceptions of Muslims are changing, though, because of a few bad apples. That's sad. I am aware of the believer/non-believer issues you mention from the Quran, though.
Wow, are we ever veering off topic here.
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Sabot
I'm a good person, oh but I can be wicked !
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| billh wrote:
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Sabot wrote:
My dream is to walk from one end of the world to the other and not be hated anywhere because I'm British, White, Male and an Atheist. | My question always is what do athiests think at the end of their lives (assuming they don't go unexpectedly)? Are unusual events passed off as mere "coincidences"? It's so much more complicated than that. |
Woooow, well off topic but what the hey!
The materials that make up my body will be reused eventually. The energy will not be destroyed either, just converted.
But seriously, I have an open-mind to what happens to me when I die. I just prefer to find out then.
Coincidences? What are they? Exactly! The universe is extremely complicated. So much so that we can not possibly comprehend it. So hence giving things neat little explanations when we don't really now whats happened is just plain silly. Whats is wrong with saying, I don't know?
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| billh wrote:
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pacelvi wrote:
The Muslims demand every drop of respect from others yet display none to other people.
Today we're supposed to be "sensitive" to their (false) rule about not depicting Mohemmed because it offends Muslims. And what do offended Muslims do? Burn down national embassies and call for the death of the cartoonists. |
To be fair here, it should be noted that most of that rioting was because a few extremists incited the crowds.
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Not sure why that makes it "fair". If the Europeans had drawn the "fake" pictures instead of the "few extermeists" lying about thier origin, would that somehow justify the reaction?
| billh wrote:
Some of the cartoons were faked and would have been offensive to anybody.
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So.. offend some Muslims because you are violating a (false) rule of thier religion which you are not a member and the legitimate response is to have your embassy burned down?
| billh wrote:
It is interesting how people's perceptions of Muslims are changing, though, because of a few bad apples. That's sad.
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I lost the knee-jerk reaction to blame myself for seeing Islam for what it is on Sept 11. The onus is on Muslims to behave in a way where one doesn't have to wonder about how far they're going to go in acting out on the literal commands of the Koran.
Of course for whatever reason, it seems most people go to great lengths to say "Not all Muslims are exteremists", "you can't judge them all by a few people" , etc etc..
It's not my job to ponder why the majority of Muslims dont take thier religion seriously enough to engage in jihad against everyone else.
When I see Muslims using thier creative mob energy to burn down the embassies of the nations that are to blame for non-Muslims viewing Muslims with suspicion then maybe I'll ponder that perhaps its true that there is some hope for a "moderate" force to temper the faithful.
| billh wrote:
I am aware of the believer/non-believer issues you mention from the Quran, though.
Wow, are we ever veering off topic here.
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zzzzz
Yes its an Economy vehicle
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pacelvi
Yes a neo-conservative, i am not alone
And yes i am trying to be somewhat funny
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| pacelvi wrote:
Not sure why that makes it "fair". If the Europeans had drawn the "fake" pictures instead of the "few extermeists" lying about thier origin, would that somehow justify the reaction? |
I'm not endorsing what happened by any means. It was clearly wrong. The cartoons were actually published back in September, and little happened at point. Why were they pulled out now? It seems "coordinated".
| pacelvi wrote:
I lost the knee-jerk reaction to blame myself for seeing Islam for what it is on Sept 11. The onus is on Muslims to behave in a way where one doesn't have to wonder about how far they're going to go in acting out on the literal commands of the Koran.
Of course for whatever reason, it seems most people go to great lengths to say "Not all Muslims are exteremists", "you can't judge them all by a few people" , etc etc..
It's not my job to ponder why the majority of Muslims dont take thier religion seriously enough to engage in jihad against everyone else.
When I see Muslims using thier creative mob energy to burn down the embassies of the nations that are to blame for non-Muslims viewing Muslims with suspicion then maybe I'll ponder that perhaps its true that there is some hope for a "moderate" force to temper the faithful. |
I don't fully understand the dynamics of what is going on either. I've seen some documentaries about how a culture of hatred is fed to people in numerous Muslim countries, however.
Er...what was the original topic of this thread? 
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| Sabot wrote:
Thank EU for keeping crooks like Microsoft at bay, please give more of my money to the French 'farmers' who don't actually farm anything. |
WOW. That's quite a (I have to watch my language) bold statement.
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| zzzzz wrote:
pacelvi
Yes a neo-conservative, i am not alone
And yes i am trying to be somewhat funny |
Thanks for the compliment 
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| billh wrote:
I don't fully understand the dynamics of what is going on either. I've seen some documentaries about how a culture of hatred is fed to people in numerous Muslim countries, however. |
I understand what you're trying to say, though, in my view, I wouldn't use such a passive way to describe it. "hatred is fed to people"... This passivity of language is almost like casting them as the victim.. "Oh, the poor Muslims of the world.. just the victim of some brainwashing" .. If anything that language patronizes and belittles them, as if to say entire populations of nations are so gullible.What we're witness is the (I need to watch my language)fication of whole regions of the earth. Whatever forces were able to get the German people to do the things they did for Hitler are at work today. Anyway, the way to tie this back to the thread is that this threat is more dire and immediate to the EU than it is to the US.Yet the voices you hear from the EU are that Americans are the problem in the world, and that we're greedy. Um ok. The hoardes are massing at the gates, yet the only thing that really gets Europeans in the streets is when America acts and puts itself at risk. It's so irrational to me I can't comprehend it.
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| Sabot wrote:
So hence giving things neat little explanations when we don't really now whats happened is just plain silly. Whats is wrong with saying, I don't know? |
Heh, interesting you should say that. A few years back I had a friend who is a muslim (we kinda lost touch, which is unfortunate) and we'd have lengthy discussions on atheist vs. theistic viewpoints. One interesting thing about that was that in his view, it is okay for religious people to simply claim that something is "an act of God", while he expected atheists to be able to explain exactly why such a thing happened to be able to say that it isn't an act of God. What this line of reasoning comes down to is that everything that humans can't explain must be by divine will, and if atheists can't explain such occurrances it proves them wrong. I myself am of the opinion, like yourself, that the universe is far too complex for the human mind to understand (which doesn't mean we shouldn't try ).
I am a passive atheist, which means that I don't believe in the existence of God (unlike active atheists, who believe in the non-existence of God; yes, there's a big difference). I am definitely of the opinion that there is more to the universe than what our senses can convey. I'm also a bit of a pragmatist; I'll believe it when I see it.
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| pacelvi wrote:
as if to say entire populations of nations are so gullible. |
As a whole, people do tend to be that gullible. Because of the vast amounts of information available people will always view the world through a filter, and they judge the world through that filter rather than by what it is. Especially if this filter is controlled by systematic propaganda and censorship it is possible to get large amounts of people to believe something even if such a thing is "wrong".That is precisely what happened in (I need to watch my language) Germany and countless other examples throughout history.
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W3bbo
Long Haired Freaky Person
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| Sven Groot wrote:
I myself am of the opinion, like yourself, that the universe is far too complex for the human mind to understand (which doesn't mean we shouldn't try ). |
Might I ask where you got that opinion from?
Humanity has gotten to the point where we know how to devise our own artificial-intelligences (it's been in NewScientist a few times, the only hurdle is technological and our lack of knowledge of how the brain works, neither of which are attributable to any 'limitations' our brains have), so surely an AI we could create could solve these problems for us, but since we were its creator then we would indirectly be the problem solvers.
In a nutshell, from what I've seen/read so far, I don't believe there is anything the human brain, in today's form, cannot comprehend.
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| Sven Groot wrote:
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Sabot wrote:
So hence giving things neat little explanations when we don't really now whats happened is just plain silly. Whats is wrong with saying, I don't know? | Heh, interesting you should say that. A few years back I had a friend who is a muslim (we kinda lost touch, which is unfortunate) and we'd have lengthy discussions on atheist vs. theistic viewpoints. One interesting thing about that was that in his view, it is okay for religious people to simply claim that something is "an act of God", while he expected atheists to be able to explain exactly why such a thing happened to be able to say that it isn't an act of God. What this line of reasoning comes down to is that everything that humans can't explain must be by divine will, and if atheists can't explain such occurrances it proves them wrong. |
Funny, this is what the gift of "discernment" is all about...being able to tell what is from God, from a human, and "from somewhere else". It gets very tricky when you get into theology, but I have seen an endless stream of "strange coincidences" over the past year or two, that were clearly "from above". There is a distinct difference.
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