Posted by Charles // Wed, Jan 18, 2006 3:34 PM
Ever wonder what's really going on when you attach a peripheral device to your computer (running Windows XP or Vista)? Well, we wanted to find out the low level truths about Plug and Play in Windows. Who else better to talk to than Eugene Lin and Jason Cobb, the Plug and Play Guys ( Eugene is a Program Manager and Jason is a dev lead, both are on the Device Management and Installation team ). Join us ( Charles Torre and special guest Channel 9 correspondent/Technical Evangelist Jeremy Mazner ) as we discuss how PnP works and what's new for Vista in this most interesting and oft overlooked killer feature of Windows.
Show: Going Deep
Tags: Windows+Vista, Hardware, Architecture, OS, Kernel
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| Clip Length: 00:08:19
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Replies:
33
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33,735
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Thanks for the going deep video Charles.....order has been restored in the C9 universe and all is well 
Only thing I'm noticing in this video is that the sound volume is really really low....and my speakers have to be all the way up...maybe you could boost the volume on the videos during the encoding process?
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Yeah, sorry about the volume. In fact, the mic on my camera basically died during this interview and thanks to our sound guru Michael Lehman (Niner Ultraguy) we were able to salvage this video. So, unfortunately, you'll need to crank your volume, but it is well worth it!
Since this interview, I've gotten a new camera and this sound issue will not happen again (at least not this bad).
Again, Dr. Lehman saved this for us. (We almost didn't release it and were going to start over, but this is a great discussion and we didn't want to lose it)
C
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Thanks for salvaging the video Dr. Lehman and Charles!!!
It's a great video!
Good to know that you realized the issued but that it won't be a common issue with future C9 videos!
Thanks again for another awesome going deep video.
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Great video. Thanks.
I'm in the minimalist camp. Don't replace my legs!
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Hey Charles at the end of the video you said you were at T-minus 7 minutes......it was a great video....but can you just let us know why those last 7 minutes were cut?
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 | Zeo wrote:
Hey Charles at the end of the video you said you were at T-minus 7 minutes......it was a great video....but can you just let us know why those last 7 minutes were cut? |
Yes. I edited it out because we discussed stuff that is not ready for public consumption at this point in time. Nothing Earth shattering, mind you, but we had to cut it just the same.
C
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Thanks for the explaination. I figured that was what happened.
That got me to thinking....you know what would be cool. On the day that Vista launches Channel9 should launch a series called, "Secret Stuff" where all of the videos of Vista stuff that couldn't be shown on C9 during the development cycle(or that had to be edited out). By that time(the Day Vista launches) most everything will be public and it would be just be a cool "publicity" stunt to drive traffic to the site.
I don't know....the idea just seems really cool....because we'll be able to see everything that you guys were dying to show us but couldn't for various reasons. Just a thought.
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Channel 9: The Director's Cut 
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Interesting idea, Zeo!
It's unfortunate that sometimes we have to cut out stuff from our content (we really dislike editing not just because all of us are as lazy as Scoble(his words, not mine! He's not lazy...) , but because we feel it diminishes the transparent value of the video. That said, we aren't in the business of hurting our business. Make sense? We like to think we can be Transparent and Smart (from a business point of view) at the same time. Some things are better left unsaid and sometimes when they are said during one of our unscripted, unrehearsed interviews, well, we just have to do a little editing.
I like the idea of after ship "bloopers", if you will. Good thinking, Zeo!
C
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great video. i was wondering if they have solved the issues with plugging in the same thing, for example a USB drive (or anything else) into different USB ports and windows installing it again and again under different names (XYZ USB Drive 1, XYZ USB drive 2, you know what i mean)
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Maybe you are referring to this:
http://channel9.msdn.com/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=148176
If so, I would really like an explanation also.
Scoble or Charles, is there anyway you can forward the above mentioned discussion thread to one of these guys for a response? I know I am not the only one with the issue.
Thanks and keep up the great work, all of you guys.
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thx, thats what i was looking for, but i would like to know if they have found a solution for this. the thread there is a 2004 thread, so maybe...
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It's funny he mentioned the XBOX360 controller because it's the first USB device I've seen that actually went online and found a driver.
I hope this happens much more frequently in the future.
Unfortunately these drivers where just bare bones gamepad drivers with no way to set controller deadzone (making it useless in certain racing games), custom button mappings or rumble but at least it worked.
I love the idea of having a device not find a driver generating an error report so that hardware manufacturers can find out what kind of problems users are having and help them find drivers online more easily.
I HATE the junk (shovelware) certain companies trick users into installing when all they need is a simple driver. It's even more despicable than file type hijacking in my opinion.
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Hi steamy-
No, we haven't found a solution for this. Raymond sums up some of the problems well in his blog. While there are better ways that Windows can address this stuff, we only have so much time to get Vista solid enough for people to stake their livelihoods on it.
Some of the features we're adding to Vista PnP will make this less of a problem.
For example, you'll never get prompted for source media during a reinstall or rollback any more, because we squirrel away all the required driver files in the Driver Store before we do an installation. This means that while your mouse may still reinstall when you switch USB ports, Vista will have all the files it needs, guaranteed.
The performance of the reinstall will also be faster due to the Driver Store anti-tampering features. Because we "trust" the drivers in the store to be unmodified, we don't have to re-verify file signatures when we install. Instead, we do the signing checks up-front when the drivers are imported into the store to make sure they haven't been corrupted or (eek) tampered. We were surprised by how much time the crypto calls were taking. Something like 70% of our install time if I recall correctly.
To the thread about external USB drives not working, I've seen some similar problems when USB-powered drives couldn't get enough juice to function properly. There isn't much Windows can do if the drive stops working. From Windows' perspective, the drive was there one minute, gone the next. Whether it was due to lack of power or a wormhole opening up next to the PC is totally impossible for Windows to determine. The suggested solution of changing permissions on the enum keys in the registry and deleting them is creepy. However, we have also seen a few badly behaved installers (I believe there was a Korean light-pen or something like that) that actually modify PnP's permissions on these critical keys and break device installs. In those cases, we'll follow up with the vendors but we can't seal off these risks without breaking a lot of stuff. Back in the sunnier more optimistic days of early Longhorn planning we fantasized about doing stuff like this, but reality set in and time, unfortunately, continued to pass.
That's all for now, kids. Hope that made sense.
-Euge
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Eugene,
Thanks for the reply.
My situation isn't necessarily about power. I know the drive works, Windows recognizes it, but when I Hibernate or restart/reboot the computer, the drive may not show up again. I know my USB ports work on the machine, becuase no other device has a problem, on any other ports.
I know going into the registry is a big NO NO for a lot of people, but it was my last resort, and it seems to be the only sure fire way for Windows to see the external hard drive again. (After it re-recognizes it, the little balloon pops up and goes through the whole device found, installing drivers, device is ready to use).
Also you mentioned poor installers from certain devices. Isn't the Adaptec cover just using the drivers supplied by Windows?
I am just curious on this issue and since you are part of the USB team, I was hoping you can offer some insight.
Thanks again for the reply and the information
David
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Hi Dentaku-
I laugh because when I plugged in the XBOX360 controller for the first time, I wasn't sure what had happened. I went to the setupapi.log to confirm that we actually found something on Windows Update. I was happy to see someone finally using this feature. For Vista we've made the experience even better for WU, and there are folks evangelizing the message to partners. And I'm pretty sure this internet thing is here to stay.
Yes, the shovelware problem is frustrating. Luckily for us, there is a way out. If I don't like the stuff that ships with a device, then I simply return the device. Call me an optimistic capitalist...
Here's hoping for a cleaner ecosystem with Vista. Less crapware. More "it just works." Shiny glass for everyone.
-Euge
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Actually, I'm not part of the USB team. As a member of the Plug and Play team, I help build the infrastructure that manages device installation. The USB bus is just another device to us, and there is a whole team of smart folks that know all about those three letters.
Might I suggest that you speak with the folks who made the device? If nothing's wrong with your PC, then this is probably happening for a lot of other owners as well. They may have an answer.
-Euge
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Minh
Does this make my head look fat?
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With flash memory coming down in price, why not embed the drivers inside the devices themselves? Then you'd really have a PnP experience.
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Nice, really filled in a lot of gaps in my knowledge about how Windows handles its drivers. I agree with minh, I think including a driver on the devices own flashROM would provide a true PnP experience. I can get a 256 MiB thumb drive from best buy for like $30 bucks, Im no expert but drivers and 3rd party apps to interface with those drivers shouldnt be more than 64-128MiB so what an extra 10-15 bucks on top of the price? and thats at consumer pricing, Im sure a large IHV would be able to get this storage in bulk pricing. :-) keep up the great work guys! 
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Hi,
When I watched your show, you did mention about the "Heart Monitor". I knew that there is a device from Microlife called Blood Pressure Monitor. It can link with the PC by USB connection. How can I use the Microsoft Visual Studio 2005 to control it, please.
Thanks,
/CharlieChau.
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This was enlightening. It was one of the best yet!
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I'm afraid I can't help you there; we just install the drivers. In terms of how you communicate with them you need to talk to the folks who wrote the driver.
-Euge
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hi eugene!
thank you very much, that answeres my question! the driver store seems a good idea finally for managing all those drivers. good job guys!!!
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