Talk:Charles_Goodyear

Wikipedia talk:Stub 1922147 31198673 2005-12-13T15:36:30Z TheMadBaron 369889 /* at what point is a stub no longer a stub? */ ==how to find or fix a stub== Help: There are over 1000 Wikipedia links to "Find or fix a stub", which now redirects to this page. But this page does not tell you how to find or fix a stub. Tempshill 23:29, 21 May 2005 (UTC) :"Finding stubs" section was added, as per request. --Sn0wflake 23:59, 21 May 2005 (UTC) ::Excellent, thank you. Tempshill 20:56, 22 May 2005 (UTC) Great.And now where's the help for fixing a stub? I'm a n00b at wiki, it would really be helpful.Gray62 :The whole of the article addresses that. Also, pleas sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~) --Sn0wflake 01:38, 16 September 2005 (UTC) Oops, sry. Hmm, obviously, I'm a total doofus, but reading this article I still have a very fuzzy picture of the difference between a 'real ' article and a stub. For instance, should the stub template be removed at some point? And what happens if I remove it? It would be really gr8 if someone would make an article on this that someone not so familiar with wiki could understand. Gray62 14:40, 16 September 2005 (UTC) :Catagorizing stubs is much easier if the contributor has at least marked them as {stub} at all, I propose changing the Project page stub directions to let new contributors know that it is better to mark the article {stub} then to not mark it at all Xaosflux 05:09, 12 November 2005 (UTC) :When the article no longer qualifies as a stub, the stub tag should be removed. That is why the page says "Once a stub has been properly expanded and becomes an article rather than just a stub, you or any editor may remove the stub tag from it. No admin action or formal permission is needed." Is that unclear? When the stub tag is removed, the article is no longer listed in the stub category, and the stub notice no longer appears at the bottom of the article. DES ^(talk) 15:07, 16 September 2005 (UTC) Hmm sry, some misunderstanding here on my part. I'm looking for info how to properly expand a stub. What is the necessary minimum for an article? Checking 'Wikipedia:What is an article' now. Maybe someone could take a look at The_Hurricane_(1999_movie) and tell me if there's anything missing, pls? Gray62 15:25, 16 September 2005 (UTC) :A stub can be expanded by adding any relevant information that is not already present. What that might be depends on the article in question. Basically any article with enough content not to be a stub is an article, albiet perhaps a short one. What it takes to be a "full" or "complete" article is another matter -- for the other extreme, see WP:FAC. One important thing that articels should have but many stubs lack is cited sources. See Wikipedia:Cite_sources for more on this, and see Wikipedia:Footnote3 for one tool some editors use for this purpose. Another thing is a proper category -- pretty much every article should be in at least one category, and the stub category will be removed when the stub tag is removed. Beyon that there are no particualr rules -- the more reliable, relevant, sourced, NPOV content the better, IMO. Happy editing. DES ^(talk) 15:54, 16 September 2005 (UTC) ==removal of images== Where can I find the discussion about the removal of images from various stub templates? Zscout370 (Sound Off) 02:30, 22 May 2005 (UTC) :Wikipedia:Suspend_use_of_stub_icons. Cheers. --Sn0wflake 01:46, 23 May 2005 (UTC) ::I've added a line discouraging the use of icons at Wikipedia:Stub#Creating_the_stub_template. Grutness...''wha?'' 13:41, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC) == Wikipedia:Stubbing == I considered altering and adding stub tags to articles stubbing. Should we make an article with that name? --SuperDude 15:36, 24 May 2005 (UTC) :I didn't quite understand what you meant, but creating such entry would be the same as shooting our own foot, as the intention of this page is reuniting all information about stubs in one place. The term ''stubbing'' is somewhat of a Neologism, also. That page would be better off redirecting to here. --Sn0wflake 19:57, 24 May 2005 (UTC) == stub template position == This page says

These stub templates should invariably be placed at the bottom of the article.

Is that strictly required? I prefer to put the stub template above headings such as '''External links''' or '''References''', and succession boxes or related concept boxes. This way readers will realise the article is incomplete (and consider adding to it) before they get to the "boring" stuff at the bottom of the page. An alternate wording might be ''These stub templates should be placed at the bottom of the text of the article.'' --ScottDavis 04:28, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC) :As things stand, what is said on the article is the rule. Invariably means invariably. However, you might want to bring this discussion up at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Stub_sorting. --Sn0wflake 04:52, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC) ::He took your advice. As Grutness pointed out in that discussion, the stub template basically says "this is all we have, and we need more", implying there's nothing beyond it when in fact there is. --Elembis 13:43, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC) :I agree with Scott's reasoning - I used to place all my stub msgs above those section, after main body. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 11:28, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC) Has the policy changed, or did someone unilatterally change it? The page now says, "By convention, these stub templates should be placed near the bottom of the article." Much weaker than "invariably". Stub template placement is something that really does cry out for standardization. I see stub templates all over the place; some look like the last entry in a list of links or references, and do not stand out. Enclosing them in a shaded box might help; centering might help. Finell 05:52, 1 October 2005 (UTC) == Boilerplate index == I've added a line pointing at this page to the end of the See Also list @ WP:BPT Courtland 17:35, 2005 Jun 4 (UTC) == Ethno-stub died? == Template:Ethno-stub seems to have disappeared for no good reason I can ascertain...any help? Tomer ^TALK 04:49, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC) :For reasons best known to himself, Stevertigo decided to delete the template. It's been restored. Grutness...''wha?'' 06:36, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC) ::Thanky kindly, good sir. Tomer ^TALK 08:18, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC) ==Wikipedia:Stub== Given that the category is now Category:Stubs, should this page be similarly named? Grutness...''wha?'' 06:23, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC) :Sounds reasonable, provided appropriate redirects. Tomer ^TALK 08:17, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC) == Stubsensor cleanup project == Hello, Would anyone mind if I added a blurb about the Stubsensor cleanup project (example: User:Triddle/stubsensor/20050516)? Perhaps we can also consolidate and try to come up with good criteria for judging when an article is no longer a stub? Triddle 21:58, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC) *Hey there, Triddle. Indeed, your Stubsensor would make a nice addition to this page. I will include it right away. Stub size, on the other hand, is a different matter entirely. Our main problem comes from the fact that there isn't much to say about certain subjects and that there is too much to say about others. There are also articles with little content and huge tables/lists which give very little useful information. So the whole discussion becomes a mess most of the time. But please give your opinion on this matter, either here or on the WP:WSS. Cheers. --Sn0wflake 01:36, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC) **Yes indeed it is hard to tell what is a stub and what is not. I've attacked this on two levels: in my software and in the organization of the cleanup projects. I believe the proper solution is proper and good communication. Here is what my take is on the matter: A stub is short enough to contain an interesting point or two but overall does not contain enough detail to be a full article but only if it can be expanded by an average person. If its already reached the level of requiring extensive research or college courses it should probably have the {{expand}} tag put on it and list why. Additionally if the article has glaring omissions it should have the expand tag put on it and list the omissions and how to fix it. The more we can improve the signal to noise ratio on the stub tags I believe the more we can let them do their intended job: make it easy for your average person to improve Wikipedia. Thats just my philosophy though. Triddle 05:09, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC) ***We must be on the right track then, since that's more or less what is already being said on the article, but the expansion tag is something that hadn't been considered so far. The only problem I see is that this would be a great guideline for WP:WSS, but I don't see the average user "getting" the spirit of the idea. --Sn0wflake 17:52, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC) ==Rationale for stub types== Please excuse if this is covered somewhere in voluminous texts covering the art of stubbing. I haven't read them all, but it humbly seems to me that this question should have an answer somewhere prominent within the documentation. It seems to me that whether an article is a stub or not is a characteristic orthoginal to its categorization(s) within the "Category:*" hierarchy, and it is semantically sufficient to tag an article as (say) "{{tl|stub}}" and "Category:Communications_satellites". For the use case of "Show me all stubs in the category 'communications satellites'" (which seems to have been the motivation for stub categories), it seems to me that this would best be handled by the MediaWiki software — not for it to specifically support the "{{tl|stub}}" tag, but generally to support queries involving arbitrary combinations of text content, tags (and absence of tags), and category membership (and for that matter any of the other metadata maintained by the MediaWiki software). Further, it seems to me that the stub hierarchy, and whatever other tag hierarchies are on the horizon (e.g. {{com-cleanup}}, {{com-POV}}, etc.) will plunge Wikipedia into a massive infinite-monkey ontological cross product. Thanks. —Fleminra June 28, 2005 09:41 (UTC) * It is absolutely true that the cross-product of label-stub with label-category-X should be sufficient to alert persons to articles that are stubs in their area of interest. However, there is not a way in which these cross-products can be visualized at the category level for a particular article (to the best of my knowledge). The current visualization tools available in "preferences" are not up to the task. If advances in the WikiMedia software would address this, for instance adding ability to rank on a scale of 1-to-3 or 1-to-5 the "completeness" of an article and accomodate this as a poll for each article and have the running avg-count and median-count and count-of-voters viewable at the category level, that would make the stub-typing going on here obsolete. I just today outlined another solution type to '''potentially allow the eradication of small stubtype categories''' (thereby allowing true implementation of the 100+ article guideline) in the discussion around deletion of {{tl|Nickelodeon-stub}} (see Wikipedia:Stub_types_for_deletion#.7B.7Btl.7CNickelodeon-stub.7D.7D). Still another way to try to reduce the proliferation of stubtypes is by '''double-stubbing''', adding two different stub templates that are orthogonal; where there are many articles that would need double-stubbing, new stubtypes are being created according to '''area classes''', such as ''geo'' for geography class, ''bio'' for biography class, etc. where a double-stubbed article to {{tl|Canada-stub}} and {{tl|Bio-stub}} now can go to {{tl|Canada-bio-stub}}. Cross-products are useful but usually only when they are instantiated then then usually when they are only instantiated partially. Thus, what would be quite useful is to modify the MediaWiki software to all the '''instantiation of cross-product nodes between stub and category at will''' from within any particular category, so that a pseudo-category would be created that would be ''category-x-stub'' which would not be creatable by a human, but would be created on the fly each time a category is accessed and would appear as a sub-category containing a subset of articles in the real category. However, in the end the easiest way to do away with the stub-type solution is to have '''comprehensive coverage of WikiProjects''' for areas of active interest, those WikiProjects maintaining interest-area lists of articles in need of attention for use by participants in the project. The primary social reason for the existence of stubtypes is the univeral editing nature of how Wikipedia has grown; the assumption is that anyone walking in off the street who might be interested in an area should find it easy to find a stub in her area of interest ... and the easiest way of accomplishing that to date is via stubtypes. I hope this goes some way toward addressing your questions. I'm sure that I've not related all options or considerations here, in which case others adding to this is necessary to give you the whole picture. Courtland July 1, 2005 00:00 (UTC) ==Request== Can the page have a few "links outwards" (especially for those of us coming from the Community portal page, who want to be helpful and find a few stubs to cure). :I don't think I understand what you mean. Could you try elaborating a little? --Sn0wflake 1 July 2005 00:36 (UTC) == stubbers and stub-sorters == There may be people who are not interested in stub sorting and would only perform generic stubbing using only the tag, {{tl|stub}}. Because there are so many stubs to choose from, it can be a barrier to complete the whole stubbing process. Therefore, it is adequate that one can just perform only one step of generic stubbing with its purpose of bringing attention to the newly discovered stub article. Thus there are two roles, ''stubbers'' and ''stub-sorters'', whom work together to efficiently meet Wikipedia's stubbing goals. Comments? -- Zondor 2 July 2005 17:25 (UTC) == Somewhat radical suggestion about stub templates == I just got done unloading some word at Wikipedia_talk:Template_standardisation and that got me to thinking ... I am considering whether the categorisation of a stub-article via affixing a specific stub type need be reflected on the article page as it currently is. The current anatomy of a stub-template message looks like (optional image) (topic message) (entreaty to expand the article) A large part of the template standardisation discussion revolves around making template messages unobtrusive but noticable and clearly distinguishing them from the article content. There is a suggestion to have ''all'' templates in boxes with certain characteristics across all Wikipedia. I don't think that would fly in fully open discussion, but at present the group involved is implementing a standard across templates without discussion or notice on the talk pages, the notion being that they'll deal with it when someone complains or reverts. In order to head off this wave without making a federal case of it (blowing it out of proportion), we might take the initiative in doing some stub-type-wide changes ourself. Here is my proposal: # the stub-template message be contracted down to a combination of the old "stub" image and a topic-specific image - no text except that might appear as part of the image # the stub-template be placed at the top, to the far left of the page # markup the stub-template image to go to the topical stub category # the stub-type category be listed in the category listing, preferably last, but would be added as part of the template addition as it now is # all existing stub categories and stub type processes be kept the same The point of all this is doing away with the perceived user requirement that the topic of the stub-template be included in the template message. In point of fact, the topic is related redundantly and in some cases confusingly by appearing 3 times ... as part of the stub-template title, as the name of the stub-type category, and in the text of the stub-template message. Also, the help-request in the stub template message is redundant with the "edit this page". All articles can use help in some way; the stub template just emphasizes that maybe this article needs more help than others in the same topic area. This is a rather radical suggestion and I'm not aggresively supportive of it, but I do think that considering it in the light of how to improve the stub-associated experience for ''readers'' and ''contributers'' (not in this case for ''stubbers'' .. though all 3 can be instantiated in one person). Thanks for listening. Courtland July 4, 2005 14:37 (UTC) :If I understood what you mean, you are proposing that the template would be converted to something similar to what the Wikiportal template is, right? A simple box with an image defining that it is a stub (the old "puzzle piece" image) and an indicator of what stub category it belongs to, floating at the upper-left corner of the article. :I do find the idea to be interesting, but I fear that the scope of the changes might result in a sizable amount of article-breaking. Nevertheless, it ''could'' be implemented, but it would probably be best if a mockup version of the template was made and put somewhere on the Wikipedia namespace, so that all parties interested could evaluate and discuss it. --Sn0wflake 4 July 2005 15:18 (UTC) == Another suggestion about stub definitions == There has been much discussion about what constitutes a stub. Could we consider adding to the "identifying a stub" section something like: :It is sometimes unclear to the reader why an article has been given the label of "stub". When putting on a stub-template consider starting a discussion thread on the article's talk page that indicates what you, as the person who labelled the article as a stub or who altered the stub-type, believe is missing from the article. This provides a further assistance to potential contributors by not only highlighting that the article needs expansion, but also ''what'' is needed. This is far too wordy, but something along these lines of sentiment might be useful to add somewhere, either here or in one of the pages related to the WP:WSS. Courtland 15:44, July 10, 2005 (UTC) This might be an useful guideline for, say, "stubbers", who seem to think that they are making a great contribution to the Wikipedia by sending every damn article which has a slight flaw to Category:Stubs by means of placing a generic stub tag on them. As of late, it's becoming very hard to understand ''why'' certain articles are being tagged as a stub. Unwikified articles shouldn't be sent to the stub cat, in the same way copyvios should not, in the same way articles with no cateogry should not. So I would love an explanation in these cases. But on a general basis, this does not serve much purpose. Pretty much all of the time, it is fairly clear what a stub lacks. --Sn0wflake 17:43, 10 July 2005 (UTC) == at what point is a stub no longer a stub? == At what point is a stub entry no longer a stub but an actual article? I've been working on the Sam_Seder article, and don't feel it's finished, but it's certainly more fleshed out then when I came across it. I even added his filmography, and figured out how to include his picture. However, I've pretty much exhausted my research for the time being. I'm sure others can later improve upon what I've done. I don't know if it's okay for me to remove the '''bio-stub''' reference that was included on the page when I found it, or if I'm supposed to let other people do that? Maybe y'all vote.. or something..? Or can I just remove it? Thanks ahead of time for any responses. ZachsMind 02:07, 18 July 2005 (UTC) :Well the rule of thumb on WP:STUB is "10 fairly short sentances or three paragraphs" but it warns that that is jsut a rule of thumb. In genral a stub is, IMO, an article so short as to be obviously lacking key info needed to cover the subject, so short that people must be exorted to expand it, and the reader cautioned not to rely on it to include adequate coverage. An article doesn't need to be so tagged can just have the stub tag removed -- no vote or approval is needed. I have done some stubsorting recently, mostly in book-stub, and found several articles that didn't look like stubs to me. I checked the history to see the state of the article when the stub tag was applied. if here had been significant expansion, and the article didn't feel like a stub to me, I removed the tag. This is just my view, nothing official, of course. DES 04:37, 18 July 2005 (UTC) The article you mention - Sam_Seder - is no longer a stub, as it goes beyond defining the subject and giving general information about it. It also goes beyond "3 to 10 short sentences", which is a metric which, despite not absolute, is generally agreed upon by the members of the WP:WSS. Removing the stub tag is the best action to take, I believe. Cheers. --Sn0wflake 05:44, 18 July 2005 (UTC) :Good. I'll remove the stub tag. Thanks for the input. =) -- ZachsMind 11:18, 18 July 2005 (UTC) I came to the Stub article with the same question, and went to this talk to ask it if nobody else had. I suggest putting some mention of this in the main article. It's one thing to know what a stub is; it's another to know when/how to remove the stub tag. :) --DragonHawk 03:40, 17 August 2005 (UTC) :Done, in the "Identifing a stub" section. DES ^(talk) 03:56, 17 August 2005 (UTC) ::I still had trouble finding it -- maybe a subheading that says 'Protocol for Removing a Stub'?Kit 23:17:38, 2005-08-25 (UTC) :::Done. See the new section "No longer a stub?" DES ^(talk) 00:27, 26 August 2005 (UTC) I note that my previous text, in the "Identifing a stub" section, was removed without discussion by Sn0wflake in this edit with an edit summary saying that consensus should be reached first. I was under the impression that there is consensus for the principle that when an article has been developed beyond the stub level, any editor may remove the stub tag. Is this not the case? DES ^(talk) 00:40, 26 August 2005 (UTC) :Until recently, a sentence covering that had been on the article, but it was removed at some point for no apparent reason. --Sn0wflake 22:10, 26 August 2005 (UTC) ::I don't think converting the small separate section I had inserted on this into a single sentence in the middle of a paragrpah that otherwise talks about the naming conventions for stub tags makes it easier to find, and from the above comments some users found this info hard to find in the past. I have moved this to what seems to me a more logical place (under identifing rather than categorising) and made it a short 2-sentence paragraphs, but not a sepaeate section. I would apprieciate the views of an editor other than Sn0wflake on the merits of this placement, and of the longer version which I wrote up the other day, and Sn0wflake converted to a single sentence. DES ^(talk) 22:30, 26 August 2005 (UTC) :::Since you also brought this up at "Alternate stub standard", I would ask that this discussion was resumed there for a matter of organisation. --Sn0wflake 22:42, 26 August 2005 (UTC) ::::To my way of thinking these are two quite separate issues, and I would prefer to keep them separate. Also, I think you misinterpreted my comment below -- I did not intend to refer to this in the "Alternate stub standard" thread. DES ^(talk) 23:01, 26 August 2005 (UTC) :::-Sn0wflake wrote (in a section below): ''"Can you please read that paragraph once more and see that the first three sentences say exactly the same thing?" --Sn0wflake 22:38, 26 August 2005 (UTC)'' They are somewhat redundant, and perhaps needed improvement. they were intended to say 1) when an article is no longer a stub, the stub tag should be removed. 2) An editor who has just expanded a stub may remove the tag. 3) an editor who discovefrs a former stub still tagged may also remove the tag. This was written to empahsize the point, and in light of the comments by ZachsMind, DragonHawk, and Kit in this section, and of other users elsewhere, that they felt the guideline did not help editors unsure when it was permissable and expected to remove a stub tag. in light of this I thought a full section was desireable. At the least I think a separate short paragraph, not a sentence in the middle of a paragraph on a different subject, is needed. Does anyone else have an opnion? DES ^(talk) 23:01, 26 August 2005 (UTC) == Stub position == Aren't stub templates supposed to be put right after the article text, but before the ''See also'' and ''External links''? I made that change but it was reverted. - Omegatron 00:20, July 23, 2005 (UTC) :That is the usual procedure, yes. However, due to varying opinions on the issue, we left this open to interpretation. I personally think that is ''is not'' the best procedure. '''Sorry, I had misread your message. I believe that the stub tag should come just before the Category links and inwikis, in order to avoid clutter, since stubs are supposed to be unobstrusive metadata.''' But again, it's open to interpretation. Cheers. --Sn0wflake 00:27, 23 July 2005 (UTC) :The discussion can be found here. Personally, I'm in favour of the "right at the bottom, before the cats and interwiki links" approach. But unless concensus is reached on a particular approach, it's probably best to leave it open to interpretation. --TheParanoidOne 00:34, 23 July 2005 (UTC) == minimum stub size == User:Loganberry recently added text to the page that says that a one sentance stub is acceptable, at least in the view of some users. I know that some people do think thsi, but is there still a consensus on something like the 3 sentance minimum for a "good" stub? DES ^(talk) 20:43, 16 August 2005 (UTC) * Well, the only "good" stub is a "dead" stub [|:). Beyond that, though, and avoiding the ''one sentence can be as long as a paragraph'' problem, I think that if a person can't write 100 words, then that person is just making a post-it-note contribution. For instance, right about '''HERE''' is 50 words. I would contend that a stub should contain more information than typically found on a post-it-note. Courtland 03:23, August 17, 2005 (UTC) * Which is true: it ''is'' acceptable in the view of some users. As for my own view, I don't think that a one-sentence stub is a ''desirable'' thing, but nor do I think a short stub is necessarily worse than nothing. If person A writes a "Post-it note contribution" and then person B comes across it (maybe via "Random article") and expands it a bit, and then this process gradually continues, then Wikipedia is working as it should; whereas a non-existent article would not turn up in the Random search in the first place. I think an article saying something like "Exampleton is a town in Worcestershire, England. At the 2001 census it had a population of around 12,000." is far from perfect, but better than having nothing at all. Loganberry (Talk) 03:34, 17 August 2005 (UTC) :You've at least provided enough info for disambiguation and establishing notability. I've found some articles that looked more like "Exampleton is in England." or "Exampleton is a town." There's no point having the stub if it isn't long enough to identify and establish notability of the intended subject. It should also be in the right category(ies), as people watch their favourite categories for new articles appearing in them. --Scott Davis ^Talk 10:03, 18 August 2005 (UTC) == Stub club? == We could really use a stub club because there are so many stubs and actually I find them useful because they're short enough to read quickly you can learn alot from stubs. Maybe we could start one on yahoo groups because they probably won't let us have one at wikipedia.com or we could use google groups because that may be better they have better software. If you want to start a stub club let me know thanks. :Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting more or less is the stub club here. Drop by. DES ^(talk) 22:06, 17 August 2005 (UTC) ==Alternate stub standard== I just added (or rather re-added) a paragraph to the "Identifing a stub" section thqt starts with "Another standard". I think this is a useful way to make the "debth of coverage" notion of a stub (as opposed to the "length" notion expressed in the 3-10 sentances rule of thumb) clear. I had added this paragraph soem time ago, and it was removed without discussion. If anyone thinks this is improper, please discuss the matter here. DES ^(talk) 00:34, 26 August 2005 (UTC) :I will try to be objective here. First, we don't need a standard which is based on what you believe should be the standard. This is a guideline article built through consensus. Your paragraph was removed without discussion? Maybe because it was ''added'' without discussion? Are you sure all agree with your version of the standard? Second, the wording is not very good. How much is "little or nothing"? What is a "knowledgeble user"? How long does one take to make "significant research", ten minutes? Articles have varying degrees of information avaliablity. Not finding meaningful content in 10 minutes may mean nothing. Please, don't try to push what you think into the guideline. I am reverting it out. --Sn0wflake 21:24, 26 August 2005 (UTC) ::Fine. I would note this is not simply soemthing i invented -- It was an attempt to distill comment I had seen made here, on the stubsorting page, and I think on the pump. I was under the strong impression that, in a general way, what I was expressing was already the consensus, it had just never been properly codified and written up. So I was bold and added it to the guideline page. Note that it was phrased as a rough rule of thumb, not as mandatory policy. If the wording needs improvement let's improve it rather than just delete it. But since you obviosuly object, I'll put the text here and ask for suggestions and views, and see if there is a consensus for something along these lines, or if one will develop. okay? DES ^(talk) 22:17, 26 August 2005 (UTC) ::I also object to your labeling the removal of a paragraph of text, after i gave my reasons for inserting it here, as a minor edit. DES ^(talk) 22:34, 26 August 2005 (UTC) :::''Regarding the alternative definition'': You may do whatever you find to be of the project's best interest. I will not object to the discussion of an alternative definition in case people actually find it to be of need. ''Regarding the removal of the paragraph'': Can you please read that paragraph once more and see that the first three sentences say exactly the same thing? --Sn0wflake 22:38, 26 August 2005 (UTC) ::::I was referring here to to the removal of the "alternative definition" paragraph. I have responded to your comments on the "when to remove the stub tag" paragraph above. DES ^(talk) 23:03, 26 August 2005 (UTC) ==Proposed "depth of coverage" standard== I think that most editors here agree that a mere mechanical counting of words, sentances, or paragraphs does not suffice to identify a stub. A topic completeluy covered in eight sentances is not a stub, and an article with twenty sentances but that barely is a skeleton coverage of its subject is clearly a stub. (For example, can you imagine the article on Freedom_of_speech reduced to twenty sentances not being a stub?) of course there is a wide gap between stub and featured article, indeeed most articles exist in that gap. I attempted to capture a rough rule of thumb for this concept of what makes a stub. Sn0wflake objected that I had no consenssu and that what I wrote was poorly written. So I am asking for coments on the merits of this idea, and how to improve my expression of it. I am hoping to achieve consensus on a revised version of this text, which would then go onto the project page. DES ^(talk) 22:46, 26 August 2005 (UTC) inital draft of proposed text: ''Another way to define a stub is that an article so incomplete that a user who knows little or nothing about the topic could improve its content after a superficial internet search or 10 minutes in a reference library is quite probably a stub. One that can only be improved by a rather knowledgeable user, or after significant research, may not be a stub.'' Comments and sugestions, please. DES ^(talk)</sup> 22:46, 26 August 2005 (UTC) :Sounds smart to me. Maurreen (talk) 02:23, 27 August 2005 (UTC) ::I'd substitute "internet" instead of "google" (thereby allowing the user to choose their preferred search tool). Otherwise looks OK. Perhaps add something like ''Of course, even a stub must contain enough information to adequately identify the subject intended by its author'' to avoid the ""Exampleton is a town" problem described above. --Scott Davis ^Talk 05:47, 27 August 2005 (UTC) :Looks good - I suggest you post a comment about ths discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Stub_sorting, since its WSS who deal most with these things. Grutness...''wha?'' 06:55, 27 August 2005 (UTC) Done, and at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Proposals, too. DES ^(talk) 17:52, 28 August 2005 (UTC) :: Nice -- I welcome some stub definitions. I remember I had an revert argument about this, the arguments which can be seen on the history of Dorotea Municipality. :: I'd change the wording of the second sentense of your proposition. I think that an article that needs, say 30 minutes of research to expand, and when it is believed by the writer that no major subjects are left out, then it is ''not'' a stub anymore. :: Fred-Chess 13:08, August 27, 2005 (UTC) ::: Would this system would require ''stub-sorters'' to spend half an hour checking if the article can be improved on? I tend to re-tag at '''least''' fifty stubs per day with more accurate tags when I'm working on the project. Would I be required to spend half an hour on each one? GeeJo (talk) 15:54, August 28, 2005 (UTC) ::::No, that would be foolish. First of all this is an alternative standard, not a replacement. My idea is that when you say to yourself "hmm, it's got 12 sentances, but it still feels stubby" or "only six sentances, but seems complete" you cna ask yourself "do i think a random editor could probably improve this with just a quick google or other net search?" if the answer is yes, it is a stub. if the answer is no, then it isn't a stub. This is something for people to think about when deciding whether to inseret, keep, or remove a stub tag, not something to be measure with a stop watch. It is at best a rule of thumb. If something is clearly a stub, this standard is irrelevant. This is mostly for borderline cases. DES ^(talk) 17:11, 28 August 2005 (UTC) :::::I was planning on not interfering, but seriously, isn't that exactly what the sentence "Note that a longer article may be a stub if the topic is complex enough; conversely, a short article on a topic which has a very narrow scope may not be a stub" covers? --Sn0wflake 17:34, 28 August 2005 (UTC) ::::::Basically, which is why I didn't origianlly think I needed to seek explicit consensus for this paragraph. This is intended to be an expansion and clarification of the idea in that sentance, to try to give a rough operational test for when it applies. Also, that senatance has often been overlooked and people have argued about whether something is or isn't a stub based purely on length (in words or sentances, usually). I wanted there to be something clearer and more prominent to convety that idea, and something to point at when justifing a decision. I didn't think i was really introducing a new idea, or changing the estalished consensus, merely rewriting to better convey that consensus. That most comments have been positive makes me tend to think that I was right about the idea. The wording may be a different matter. DES ^(talk) 17:49, 28 August 2005 (UTC) :::::::But why bother creating time-based definitions and such when the concept is already there? The guideline does not need to take people by the hand and show them exactly what to do, especially on an area as inconceivably hazy as stub-sorting. The whole size matter has never been something which was set in stone. The general consensus, up to this point, was: "Follow the 3-10 sentences guideline in a general manner, but USE GOOD SENSE, DAMMIT!". Any serious stub-sorter grasps that concept, eventually. Just let people use good sense. It rarely fails. --Sn0wflake 02:03, 30 August 2005 (UTC) : just my two cents here....I think that the guys who take stub-sorting serious have always been conscious of the pertaining question, and have been removing stub-notices all the way...although I appreciate the effort gone into this here, I simply don't see people reacting to it; they will continue to stubsort according to the length of the article, and (here I go again) stub sorting isn't, in the first place, about judging the quality and content of the article, but to get it where it will be noticed (or so we all hope), and there, "specialists" can take care of whether it is to be considered a stub or not...Lectonar 08:11, 29 August 2005 (UTC) ::This was aimed not so much at the experienced stub-sorters, the people who deal with inserting, changing, and removing stub tags all the time, as at the more casual editor who needs to decide whenther the article s/he has just created is a stub, or whether the one s/he has just expanded is still a stub. I am trying more to put into words what the expereinced stub-sorters already know and do than to change existing practice. DES ^(talk) 16:05, 31 August 2005 (UTC) :: Responding to GeeJo: :: I think you and I are referring to opposite things. Because you seem to tag articles as stub -- whereas I often de-stub pages, and then have people come and stub them again. :: There will probably always be this problem. When I write about very small municipalities in Sweden, I find it very hard to find any relevant information. I may spend an hour searching, in vain, just to try and get rid of the "stub" tag. Naturally, if I fail, it seems unlikely "any one" could "easily" expand the article. For instance, I dare you to expand on Haquin_Spegel... or an even better example would by Folke_Johansson_Ängel where there just isn't any more information that I know... as I said on the history-article page I provided for Dorotea Municipality above, it is just be a waste of time tagging such articles as "stubs", because eventhough they are short, they will probably remain short for years, until a professor or similar knowledgeable person comes along. Fred-Chess 17:15, August 29, 2005 (UTC) I see several editors respondign favorably to this, and only one who seems strongly opposed, and more on the grounds of redundancy than anything else, If I understand Sn0wflake's comments correctly. I take that as sufficient support for this change, and i am goign to isneret the text above in the page. it can always be removed if the consensus shifts. DES ^(talk) 16:05, 31 August 2005 (UTC) ==Source of content== Hi there, having a minor dispute with another editor as to whether Marlborough,_Massachusetts (and several others) should be considered a stub. Are articles whose content is 95% derived from bots considered stubs? As to this example, it has exactly one line of information not added by a bot or a template. Tim Rhymeless (Er...let's shimmy) 02:31, 3 September 2005 (UTC) :IMO, the source of the content doesn't matter, teh length and depth does. I don't think i would call Marlborough,_Massachusetts a stub, although it is marginal on depth IMO, I don't care whetehr a bot added content or a human did. If a bot can add enough content to an artilce to take it beyond the stub stage, then it isn't a stub. DES ^(talk) 19:05, 3 September 2005 (UTC) ::I think i've seen a lot of these articles about (to be honest) smaller US-communities, and they all follow up the same scheme; and I agree with DES here, that isn't a stub anymore...Lectonar 07:21, 5 September 2005 (UTC) :::Pity, that's not quite the answer I wanted to hear, though I'll go with it. It just troubles me to think that they might receive less attention without a stub tag. Tim Rhymeless (Er...let's shimmy) 01:57, 6 September 2005 (UTC) Here's my personal take on the issue: Awhile back there was a project to check all the articles that were marked as stubs. If they were too large, the stub templates were removed. As far as I can tell, stub templates were removed from ALL the User:Rambot-generated articles. I felt that was very, very wrong at the time, and still feel the same today. When I am decided if an article is a stub, I do not count any of the Rambot-generated Demographic or Geography data. If a US city, community, or Census-designated_place article has only a few sentences that were not created by Rambot, then the article is still very much a stub and needs a geo-stub template. This issue should probably be addressed in the Stub article. Marlborough,_Massachusetts only has three sentences that were not created by User:Rambot. IT IS A STUB! ''Blank''''Verse'' ∅ 07:39, 1 October 2005 (UTC) == Color change == The project page was jsut edited to but some of the prototype code on a red background. I think this makes it harder to read. What was the reason for this change? DES ^(talk) 16:05, 7 September 2005 (UTC) :It was edited by an anon with only that one edit. I have reverted it as vandalism. --TheParanoidOne 19:14, 7 September 2005 (UTC) == Phillipine writers == The stub {{phil-lit-stub}} somehow ends up linking to Category:Stubs, making it appear that a load of phillipine literature is in need of classification. Could someone sort this out? It's... Thelb4! 16:17, 4 October 2005 (UTC) == Includeonly for stub categories on templates == Since includeonly tags have been added, some stub templates have been edited to use them around the category link, while most haven't. While I see the point of using them (the template itself isn't a stub), it does make it harder to navigate from the template to the category (or tell that the template even has a matching category). Perhaps if includeonly is to be used, a link to the category could be put in noinclude tags? (altho I'd rather leave the templates as they were before) Either way, it'd be nice if there was some consistency and consensus... --Mairi 00:25, 12 October 2005 (UTC) : I just did this (noinclude) on {{tl|Malta-stub}} .. the category template does include a link to the template itself. Should this be an official part of the documentation? Srl 19:59, 6 December 2005 (UTC) ::Looks good to me. I'd suggest perhaps rolling this style out on a few stub types gradually, and seeing if people yelp on the one hand, or applaud and adopt on the other. (Or remain profoundly unmoved either way, indeed.) Alai 06:45, 7 December 2005 (UTC) == Addition == Further to some discussions on Wikipedia_talk:Schools, I added ''Having an interwiki link, or at least one relevant picture also lends weight to it's claim to be a stub.'' to the definition of a stub. The purpose of this is to help define the minimum criteria that an article should have in order not to be merged automatically up into a parent article. The implication is that having a picture, or an article on another language wiki, makes it more likely that the stub will expand, or less convenient and useful to merge. Thoughts? Trollderella 09:21, 15 November 2005 (UTC) :I would like to see some logical basis for this criteria, as in the whole of my experience with stub-sorting and related activities, I have never noticed that as being meaningful. The article becomes more likely to expand if its text is compreensive. That's it. If you include this criteria, 70% of the stub articles will get merged, which is just a bad idea. --Sn0wflake 16:32, 15 November 2005 (UTC) ::If this is changed, I'd like to suggest that the criteria from WP:CORP concerning not counting self promotional sources of data not be considered in the content being counted. Vegaswikian 19:17, 15 November 2005 (UTC) :::I'm sorry, I think I was unclear, these things are 'ors', not 'ands', I am suggesting that, in addition to the current definition of having 3-8 sentences, we say 'either 3-8 sentences, an interwiki link, or a picture' are the things that make the difference between a sub-stub to be merged and a stub to be kept. I believe it broadens the scope of acceptable stubs. Thoughts? Vegaswikian, I'm sort of confused, because what I added to this was that if an article had an interwiki lnk or a picture then we should count it as a stub - the criteria about text was already there. Trollderella 19:29, 15 November 2005 (UTC) :To reitterate, I was proposing adding "''Having an interwiki link, or at least one relevant picture also lends weight to its claim to be a stub.''". The reason being that having an interwiki link to an actual article on another language wiki means that an article has been written, and implies that there is a possibility to write one in english, and having a picture makes it more difficult to merge, because of the size. Trollderella 19:39, 15 November 2005 (UTC) ::I presume that you are arguign that such links make an article more properly a stub, rather than a sub-stub that may be fit only for merging or deletion. But much of the Stub page is more concerned with distinguising between stubs and non-stub, but short, articles. To say that a feature "makes something be counted as a stub" can incorrectly be seen as part oc the upper boundery rather than the lower unless the wording is quite clear. Besides, we don't formally recognize sub-stubs, and the normal answer for soemthing below the lower boundry is expansion rather than deeltion or merger, so i don't think this addition has much value. DES ^(talk) 19:46, 15 November 2005 (UTC) :My primary motivation for wanting to add it is related to a discussion that is current on Wikipedia_talk:Schools, where a lot of users are concerned about the point at which a school article is suitable to be merged, and at what point is should be kept as a stub. It's a real, and acrimonious, debate, and adding these two (fairly incocuous, I think) criteria to the stub definition is a rare point of concensus that looks like it may provide peace on the school deletion wars. Are there concerns you have about practical implications of this? Thanks, Trollderella 19:51, 15 November 2005 (UTC) ::What can I say other than "please don't drag the stub sorting project into the schools-on-Wikipedia mess"? The fact is that merger is not the general rule, but rather the exception. We hardly merge anything, instead expanding the article by a bit, turning it into a small stub. Now, for schools, the rules you are proposing seem quite logical, but that should be dealt with within the schoold project, instead of being generalized. Regards, --Sn0wflake 22:41, 15 November 2005 (UTC) == section stub == I remember seeing a stub marker for just a section of an atricle, rather the whole thing. This page doesn't mention it though. Is it supposed to be used? (unsigned comment by 67.165.96.26 at 17:57, 30 November 2005 --BigBlueFish 19:23, 30 November 2005 (UTC)) == Triple-stubbing considered anathema? == Does anyone else feel the current wording, that "using more than two [stub tags] is strongly discouraged" is far too strong? This just doesn't take into consideration the practicalities of the categorisation scheme, and the stub categories in particular, where we try to avoid "over-splitting" categories in such a way as to make them overly small. If someone is, for example, an American sports journo, we're up to three equally applicable stub categories already, even if the subject isn't also equally notable for something else. I'd prefer a weaker wording, or better still, one rates to areas of notability, as above, and not raw numbers of tags. If people find more than one or two inlined images and template messages excessive, it might be worth considering the use of a "silently stub-categorise" template for the equally applicable additional tags, though that's complicating matters somewhat. And surely the object isn't to make stubs visually acceptable anyway, it's to make them non-stubs! Alai 05:44, 6 December 2005 (UTC) :As you put it, "it's to make them non-stubs!" In the case that you give, of the American sports journalist, it much more likely that it will be sports fans that will improve the article, so in my opinion only a {{tl|Sportbio-stub}} is necessary. In many other cases, there are now appropriate combo stubs so that, for example, a Japanese writer no longer needs both a Japanese stub and a writer stub, but instead gets a {{tl|Japan-writer-stub}}. Every case where I've seen three stubs it's been overkill and at least one of the stubs was was so general or so loosely connected to the article that it wasn't needed. If you really think that a third ''category'' might be appropriate, it is easy enough to add just the category without the stub template by hand. ^''Blank''^''Verse'' 11:05, 6 December 2005 (UTC) ::This isn't always clear; indeed, I'm not sure it's even clear in my example instance. An Argentinian soccer fan isn't very likely to be be interested in writers on US baseball, say, so what's to say the general sportsbio cat is more likely to lead to expansion than a USA-specific one? (Even within the same sport this may be often true, though writers aren't even necessarily going to be so particular.) I certainly don't see how that would rise to being "so general or so loosely connected to the article". Making it a judgement call as to which one or two is the "most important" is just going to lead to needless confusion, and to arbitrary omission from entirely applicable categories. Obviously where there's a "combo stub" there's no problem. Adding by hand is possible, but not actually quite so easy to do, since even if one knows the stub template off the top of one's head, the text of the category may be less evident. Alai 02:00, 7 December 2005 (UTC) :AFAIC the more stub templates on an article the better, since it increases the chance that appropriate editors will see and expand an article. In any case, it's often impossible to accurately put an article into one - or even two - neat little pigeon-hole(s). If a mountain is at the point that three countries meet, what are you going to do? Ignore one country? Or just use "geo-stub" and hope that an editor will stumble across it by accident? If someone was a politician and novelist and came from a small country that doesn't have its own politician-stub or writer-stub then do you ignore the country-stub? No - you triple stub. I'll 'fess up - I put that "strongly discouraged" line there - it used to read "not permitted", which went against normal stubbing practice. But as the number of available stub types has increased, so the ability to use several far finer descriptions of an article has improved, and more stubs are now more the norm. Perhaps if we bump it up one and say that ''four'' stubs in strongly discouraged, it would better reflect current practice. Grutness...''wha?'' 07:04, 7 December 2005 (UTC) == -related == This page and things it links to refer to "-related" categories, i.e. France-related.. apparently this is against current guidelines. Can the examples be improved? Thanks Srl 22:33, 6 December 2005 (UTC) : I fixed France-related. OK to remove ''road-related''? any reason to keep it? Srl 22:57, 6 December 2005 (UTC)