For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
May 7, 2004
Interview of the President by Al-Ahram International
The Map Room
May 6, 2004
3:37 P.M. EDT
Q I have learned that President Mubarak sent you, recently, two
important messages. I don't know, I mean, the contents of these
messages, but I assume that of course it be linked by the situation in
Iraq, and Palestine. I would like to ask, in the beginning, one
general question about how do you look at this vision of the Middle
East.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, first of all, I communicate with President
Mubarak a lot, because I value his judgment, and we've got a frank
relationship where, if he thinks things are going badly, he'll tell
me. In other words, he doesn't gloss over.
I think that things in the Middle East for the United States are
difficult right now. I think they're difficult because people don't
really understand our intentions. I think they're difficult because
some people ascribe bad values and bad motives to the American people
and the American government.
Our intentions are to work for free societies and peaceful
societies. Our intentions are to protect our own security, on the one
hand, but also enable people to live in peace. Obviously, our
reputation has been damaged severely by the terrible and horrible acts,
inhumane acts that were conducted on Iraqi prisoners. Today, I can't
tell you how sorry I am to them and their families for the
humiliation.
I'm also sorry because people are then able to say, look how
terrible America is. But this isn't America, that's not -- Americans
are appalled at what happened. We're a generous people. I don't think
a lot of people understand that. So I've got to do a better job of
explaining to people that we're for a lot of things that most people
who live in the Middle East want. We want there to be peace. We want
people to have a living. We want people to send their kids to schools
that work. We want there to be health care. We want there to be a
Palestinian state at peace with its neighbors. We want there to be
reform. We want people to have a chance to participate in the
process.
But I'd say right now times are tough for the United States and the
Middle East.
Q I have four topics, Mr. President: Iraq, the Israeli-Arab
issue, the so-called greater Middle East, and bilateral -- which one do
you choose of them Mr. President?
THE PRESIDENT: Whatever you want to do, sir, you're the
distinguished journalist.
Q Thank you very much, indeed. Okay, I will shoot for the
Arab-Israeli conflict.
THE PRESIDENT: Okay.
Q Many Arabs feel that after the letter of assurances you gave
to Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, any future Palestinian state
would exist on less than half what the partition plan offered them in
'47. How do you reconcile this with a moral concept of justice?
THE PRESIDENT: First of all, I made it very clear in my letter
that I recognized circumstances had changed -- but I made it very clear
of a couple of very important points. One, that any final status would
be negotiated by the parties -- that would be the Israelis and the
Palestinians -- not the United States, we won't pre-judge final
status.
Secondly, I made it clear that I supported what the Prime Minister
had done, because I think it's a great opportunity for the
establishment of a Palestinian state. I'm the first President ever to
have articulated the vision of a Palestinian state.
Q I'm writing here, and I wanted to appreciate that very
highly.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I'll tell you, and I'm somewhat amazed, sir,
that the debate has already started about what the end results are
going to look like when we haven't even really begun yet to establish a
state. I think the focus ought to be on putting the institutions in
place for a Palestinian state that is peaceful and prosperous to
emerge.
I think it's very important for reform-minded Palestinians to step
up and ask the world for help, in order to build the security apparatus
needed for a state to grow; ask for education help; ask for help to
stimulate the entrepreneurial class so businesses will grow. I believe
it'll happen. And when it does happen, the final status issues will be
much easier to solve.
In other words, when there is a state that's up and running and
prosperous and has the confidence of Egypt and Israel and America and
the E.U. and the rest of the world, it'll be much easier for these
final -- these tricky issues to be solved between the two parties. And
so now is the time not to be arguing over what the world will look like
down the road. We ought to be arguing about what the world can look
like this year. And that's why the road map is so important.
The United States is firmly committed TO the road map. I'm sending
a letter to the -- I announced today I'm going to send a letter to the
Palestinian Prime Minister explaining that I'm committed to the road
map, committed to two states living side-by-side in peace, but also
reminding him it's now time to step up and show leadership, show
leadership against the terrorists, and show leadership in putting the
institutions in place for a state to emerge.
Q The right of Palestinian refugees to return to their homeland
and to be provided with compensation is legally assured in several
U.N. resolutions.
THE PRESIDENT: Right.
Q The United States has also traditionally supported the right
of refugees to return in recent major conflicts. How would you then
justify making the Palestinian refugees an exception for accepted
international laws under human rights conventions?
THE PRESIDENT: My comment, again, was this, that -- and the right
of refugees is a final-status issue. And that's to be negotiated on
between the Palestinians and the Israelis. When I said what has
changed and what will change is when there's a Palestinian state to
which Palestinians can go. There hasn't been one. And my point was,
was that when a state is set up and the institutions are in place and
people have a chance to make a living and it's peaceful, the
entrepreneurial class is growing, small businesses, people are
participating in the political process, that that's going to change the
dynamic on the ground.
I fully concede there's a lot -- the compensation issue is an issue
that's still being negotiated. The rights of -- you know, the rights
of Palestinians to return to Israel will be negotiated. But what I'm
telling you is when a state emerges, it'll change the dynamic. And
that's all I said in my comment.
Again, I'll repeat to you, people want to focus on the future, when
I think we ought to be focused right now on the right now, which is
what is necessary to put a Palestinian state in place so people can
have a chance to live in a hopeful society. And I'm frustrated, I must
tell you, a little bit, because I think that -- I think that there
needs to be better leadership in saying, what can we do to help the
Palestinian people develop a state. And there needs to be a new
constitution, it seems like to me.
And some of these reforms stalled. Heck, we've been talking about
them for about two years, unfortunately. But now is an opportunity.
And I think Prime Minister Sharon created an interesting dynamic, I
really do, and that is withdrawal from the West Bank. You know, it
wasn't all that long ago if an Israeli Prime Minister stood up and
said, we're out of Gaza and parts of the West Bank, people would have
said, that's fantastic. And so the Prime Minister makes the decision
to get out and, of course, his own party rejects it, which speaks to --
it speaks to his leadership, in my judgment, that he's willing to do
what he thinks is right, in face of political opposition.
Q But do you really agree that pragmatic realities mean
annexation of other lands?
THE PRESIDENT: Do I think --
Q Do you agree on that, I mean, that pragmatic realities which,
I mean, being said repeatedly here in the states, pragmatic realities
-- pragmatic realities --
THE PRESIDENT: You mean, with the conditions on the ground?
Q Does it mean annexation of other people's land?
THE PRESIDENT: I think what it means is, I think you're going to
see over time with the emergence of a Palestinian state that the West
Bank will be occupied by Palestinians. And to the extent to what the
final border looks like is up for negotiations.
Q Again, we very much appreciate the fact that you were the
first U.S. President to call for the creation of an independent
Palestinian state. But in all the recent proposals that are being
circulated, including the latest disengagement plan, we did not see any
specific timetable. What happened to your pledge to create a
Palestinian state by 2005? And do you still believe that this could be
possible?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, 2005 may be hard, since 2005 is right around
the corner. I readily concede the date has slipped some, primarily
because violence sprung up. When I laid out the date of 2005, I
believe it was around the time I went to Aqaba, Jordan. It was a very
meaningful moment, where former Prime Minister Abu Mazen, myself, Prime
Minister Sharon and His Majesty, the King of Jordan, stood up and
pledged to work together.
But we hit a bump in the road -- violence, as well as Abu Mazen was
replaced, which changed the dynamic. I don't want to make any excuses,
but nevertheless, I think the timetable of 2005 isn't as realistic as
it was two years ago. Nevertheless, I do think we ought to push hard
as fast as possible to get a state in place.
And I repeat to you, sir, that part of my frustrations were
alleviated with the Quartet making the statement it made the other day
-- the Quartet being the E.U., Russia, United Nations and the United
States, working together. I think we can get the World Bank involved.
But there is a certain sense of responsibility that falls upon the
Palestinians, reform-minded Palestinians to step up and say, yes, we
accept these institutions necessary for a peaceful state to emerge.
There's also a responsibility for Egypt. Egypt has got, in my
judgment, an important role to play to help make sure there is security
in Gaza, as the civil structure is put in place and as the government
structure is put in place. And President Mubarak, I think, is willing
to assume that responsibility over time -- I don't want to put him on a
timetable, but I do believe he is committed to helping bring security
to that part of the world, it's in Egypt's interest that there be
security.
Q You know, Mr. President, we did our best, I mean, getting all
the factions together in Cairo, Egypt to try to convince them to have
one single opinion, and that we're ready for training the police and
security guards.
THE PRESIDENT: That's right. President Mubarak has been a leader
on the issue of security, he really has. As you say, he's convened a
very important meeting to make it clear that in order for there to be a
peaceful evolution of a state there has to be security, and that he's
willing to train police. Egypt plays a mighty important role. And
it's a great country and it should play an important role.
Q You have said, Mr. President, in recent statements, that the
assurances you gave to Sharon did not differ from what was being
discussed, and what we mentioned now, and previous final status talks.
But in those talks there were proposals on land swaps and an Israeli
acceptance for the return of a limited number of refugees. Why were
these proposals absent from your recent letters?
THE PRESIDENT: Look, I want to assure you once again that I
understand the sensitivity of these final status issues. But they will
be negotiated, not between the United States and the parties, they're
negotiated between Israel and the Palestinian government, of a new
state. And that's really -- and that is a position I've taken all
along. It's what I told my friend, President Mubarak. I just told
that to His Majesty, the King of Jordan. And I will explain that
consistent position of mine.
People -- I think some people are trying to read something into
what I said or didn't say. And what -- you know, I'll say it finely
one more time: This is an opportunity that we can't let go by.
There's a lot of argument about final status issues, and they're very
important issues, don't get me wrong. But the focus ought to be on how
do we get a Palestinian state up and running and moving forward.
Q You have praised Sharon's proposal to withdraw from Gaza,
which is an idea that does not represent more than one percent of
(inaudible) Palestine. Would you accept guarantee for granting
Palestinians similar letter of assurances stating that any annexation
of West Bank territory has to be minimal and that Israel has to pull
out from nearly the entire West Bank, according to Security Resolution
242 and 338?
THE PRESIDENT: No, I will write -- I will say the exact same thing
in a letter to the Palestinians that I have said publicly today, that I
believe an opportunity exists and it's essential that the Palestinian
Authority find reform-minded leaders who are willing to step up and
lead.
Q The last question on Israeli-Arab issue, you have repeatedly
-- repeatedly stated that Israel had the right to defend itself. But
do you believe that by building walls and settlements and by
assassinating Palestinian leaders, Israel is enhancing security and
helping and reassuring peace talks?
PRESIDENT BUSH: I think that any country has a right to defend
herself. And you're looking at a President who is now in the process
of defending my country against terrorist attacks. It is very
difficult for the President of the United States to condemn anybody for
defending themselves.
My problem with the wall was not the security aspect of the wall.
My problem with the wall was that at one point in time, it looked like
it was trying to prejudge any final status. And that I hope -- my hope
is, at one point in time, the wall is unnecessary. The hope is, is
that a peaceful Palestinian state, that -- I keep saying that, but I
think it's possible -- but a peaceful Palestinian state must be a state
in which youngsters are well-educated, and have a chance to make a
living, and have a chance to -- parents have a chance to realize --
raise their children in a peaceful setting.
And I think that a peaceful Palestinian state will eventually
change the dynamics on that which exists on the ground today.
Q Okay. I thank you, very much, for your patience. I will
move to the other topic, Iraq.
THE PRESIDENT: Sure. Sure.
Q You said yesterday that you first learned of the abuses of
Abu Ghraib and other prison -- and other prisons, in Iraq generally.
Why has it taken so long to adopt serious measures against those
directly responsible and their commanders?
THE PRESIDENT: First of all, I learned about the fact that there
was an investigation going on. I did not know the extent of the
abuse. And there was a report done as a result of those
investigations. And what you're hearing here in America is, why didn't
I see the report? And that's a good question. That's one of the
questions I'm asking, because I first saw about the pictures on
television screens.
But one of the things you've got to understand about our country is
that, one, we reject this kind of treatment of people. It's
abhorrent. And it's not America. Your viewers have to understand,
this is not our country. Secondly, that we will fully investigate.
Now, there's a difference between fully investigating and rushing to
judgment. We will investigate. And there's a procedure in the
military that is necessary to make sure that the guilty are truly
guilty. It's very important for the Commander-in-Chief not to
prejudge.
Thirdly, the process will be transparent. Your viewers have got to
know that here in America, in our system, the judicial process will be
fully transparent. And you're beginning to see the transparency. The
press corps wants to know different questions. And those questions
need to be answered.
Tomorrow, our Secretary of Defense, in whom I've got confidence and
believe in, will go up and testify at the United States Senate. So
you'll see the process evolve as to -- and the truth come out, as to
why the military needed to take the time necessary to fully investigate
these horrible, horrible acts.
And I repeat to you, sir, I am sorry for the humiliation suffered
by those individuals. It makes me sick to my stomach to see that
happen.
I'll tell you what else I'm sorry about. I'm sorry that the truth
about our soldiers in Iraq becomes obscured. In other words, we've got
fantastic citizens in Iraq; good kids; good soldiers, men and women who
are working every day to make Iraqi citizens' lives better. And there
are a thousand acts of kindness that take place every day of these
great Americans who really do care about the citizens in Iraq. It's an
awful, awful period for the American people, just like it's awful for
the Iraqi citizens to see that on their TV screens.
Q Again, sir, do you feel like you need to apologize to the
Iraqis and the Arab world after you said that, "I'm sorry"?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I'm sorry for the prisoners, I really am. I
think it's humiliating. And it is, again -- what the Arab world must
understand is a couple of things. One, under a dictatorship, these --
this wouldn't be transparent. In other words, if there was torture
under a dictator, we would never know the truth. In a democracy,
you'll know the truth. And justice will be done. And that's what
people need to know.
Q What are the main pillars of the upcoming Security Council
resolution on Iraq? How much control are you ready to cede to the
United Nations and the future Iraqi government?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think the Iraqi government wants the
sovereignty. And I think that's the proper -- the proper relationship
is for the Iraqi -- the sovereignty to be passed to the Iraqi
government with help from coalition, as well as the United Nations.
I'll tell you a very good role for the United Nations is to help set up
the elections that will take place in January of 2005. And the United
Nations Security Council resolution is important, because it says to
members of the world, please participate in helping this government
grow.
But the sovereignty -- Iraqi people want to run the government
themselves. That's not to say they don't want help; of course they
want help. But they want to run their government. Frankly, you hear
frustrations about America there in Iraq. And I can understand that,
because the Iraq -- nobody wants their government run for them. The
people of Iraq want to run their own government, and that's what will
happen.
Q How long do you think the United States will stay in Iraq?
THE PRESIDENT: As long as necessary, and not one day more.
Q A recent Gallup Poll showed that 71 percent of Iraqis
considered the United States an occupying power. Does this disappoint
you?
THE PRESIDENT: No, listen, I understand. I mean, if I were an
Iraqi and I saw people -- was asked, am I happy that somebody is
running my government for me -- which basically is what the question
implies -- the answer would be, no, we want to run our government
ourselves. And that's why we're transferring sovereignty.
I'll tell you, however, the Iraqi people understand that America
needs to be around for a while to help make sure that the killers --the
foreign fighters who are there, disgruntled former Saddamists -- don't
wreak havoc. There are thousands of Iraqis losing their lives at the
hands of these killers. And they are -- and they need help right now,
until security -- Iraqi security forces are efficient, are formed in a
way that will be able to be responsive to the dangers of these few
people. It is essential that there be a secure environment as Iraq
emerges from this period of tyranny. And they want our help there.
They also want the reconstruction aid.
Q And it has been delayed a lot.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it has, for a reason. Early in the winter
there was fast movement on the reconstruction projects. I mean,
there's some wonderful things that have happened in Iraq, which of
course don't get mentioned very often.
For example, I'll tell you an interesting thing that's happened, is
that the currency, the old currency was replaced by a new currency in
about a six or seven month period of time. That's hard to do. And,
yet, it was done without a lot of arbitrage, a lot of counterfeiting,
theft -- there was no theft. And the currency is stable, which is a
remarkable feat, when you think about it. The electricity levels were
climbing quite dramatically. The oil production, which is Iraqi oil
production, it's not American, it's -- Iraq owns the oil -- it's up to
about two-and-a-half million barrels a day.
So in other words, there were positive signs going on. And then we
had this period of fighting, where elements in society decided to
fight, because they saw freedom coming and they wanted to try and stop
it, is what they're trying to do. And we took them on and are
defeating them.
What's happening now is that big projects are starting back up
again, because the security situation is a little better, and big
companies are moving in with these reconstruction projects. It will
start back up, and Iraq will be better for it.
Q I am aware of a very emotional meeting that took place
recently between you and the Iraqi women delegation --
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
Q -- and met you there with lots of tears.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, there were.
Q Do you care to share the details of that meeting with us?
THE PRESIDENT: Only because you asked. I did have the honor of
welcoming a group of women to the Oval Office. I was told ahead of
time that some members of the delegation did not want to come in the
Oval Office because they didn't want to get their picture taken,
because they were afraid -- not of American reaction, but of reaction
back home. In other words, there is still fear in people's heart.
I met with those ladies later. The door opened to the Oval Office
and the first woman that walked in looked at me and she burst out in
tears, and said, "You are my liberator." It touched my heart, it
really did. And I, of course -- I held her in my arms and tears came
to my eyes as she cried out of joy. It really made me feel great. She
said, "Thank you, Mr. President. You liberated us." I said, "No, the
American people helped liberate you." And then another lady came in
and another lady came in. We had about six of us in our office.
And it was a touching meeting. These were people that were
obviously somewhat taken aback that they were in with the President of
the United States. And, yet, when they were with me, it was deeply
emotional. It touched my heart. I still remember it clearly today.
It made me very joyous inside to think that people who had been
enslaved to tyranny, fearful of torture, probably had friends in mass
graves, would be so thankful for the chance to live in peace.
And I'll tell you what's really important for the people -- those
people, those women, and I think about them all the time, is for me to
never show any weakness in the face of the dangers in Iraq. In other
words, those killers want us to leave. But my attitude is, having met
with these women, if we leave, they will be in jeopardy. And I have an
obligation, no matter how difficult it gets, to stay strong on behalf
of those women, and their chance to raise their children in freedom.
The other day I had the Olympic Committee from Iraq come, two
members of the Olympic Committee. It was an exciting moment. I love
sports, for starters. And the head of the women's Olympic committee
came. She was a former runner. And she told me about her two-year-old
son and one-year-old son. She had quit the Olympic team because she
didn't want to run for one of Saddam's sons, for fear of her life. And
yet she was so grateful for the freedom she has. It's heartening.
I met with Fulbright Scholars, young Iraqis that are here studying
in the United States. I met with Doctors from Iraq who are getting new
training -- all of whom are desperate for there to be a free society so
they can live in peace. And that's why we share the same goal.
Q On greater Middle East, Mr. President, has your vision on the
greater Middle East initiative changed at all, in light of recent
reactions from Arab and European countries? What will be presented to
the G8 leaders in their meeting next month?
THE PRESIDENT: My vision for the greater Middle East reforms were
strengthened by the Alexandria Library Conference. You might have
heard of that. (Laughter.) I saw the spirit of that conference.
There are people in the Middle East who understand the need for
reforms.
Now, when I talk about reforms, I fully understand the pace of
reform will be different from country to country. But, nevertheless,
there has to be a commitment to reform for a better life for every
citizen. I am as strong today on reforms in the greater Middle East as
I have ever been.
I fully understand criticism. I mean, I get criticized all the
time in my job. I think the job of a leader is to have a vision, a
vision that is hopeful and optimistic, and one based upon certain
principles -- a principle like rule of law; a principle like human
dignity by empowering individuals to make decisions in the political
process; a principle that every person deserves respect; a principle
that says that a peaceful society is more likely to be one that is a
free society. And, therefore, I won't abandon those principles, no
matter how significant the pressure.
Q Last question --
THE PRESIDENT: Okay, one more question. Then we've got to go.
Q Why does your administration insist on imposing sanctions
against Syria?
THE PRESIDENT: Because they will not fight terror, and they won't
join us in fighting terror. We've asked them to do some things, and
they haven't responded. And Congress passed a law saying that if Syria
will not join -- for example, booting out a Hezbollah office out of
Damascus -- that the President has the right to put sanctions on.
I have yet to impose a sanction yet, but the bill enables me to do
so. And we've talked to the Syrian leader very clearly -- and these
aren't -- these are reasonable requests -- and thus far, he hasn't
heeded them. And that's why, if I make the decision to put on
sanctions, it will be because he hasn't been a full partner in the war
against terror.
Q That would create another -- more problems in the area.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, we'll see. But I think that -- I think that
people need to understand that there needs to be a full commitment. I
mean, there's no need to harbor people who are expressing hatred. And
if the world would join together to rout out terrorist organizations
who want to kill innocent people, it would be a heck of a lot better
off.
See, here's my objection. We've got Muslims killing Muslims in
Iraq. There are Muslims who will kill an innocent Muslim, for the sake
of trying to create fear. We can't let that happen. Civilized people
must not allow that to happen. What they're trying to do is they're
trying to shake our will, our collective will. For those of us who
love freedom, they were trying to say, well, don't work for freedom,
leave us alone so we can kill other people. We just can't let that
happen. There are too many peaceful people who need protection. And
we want to help them. And, most importantly, we want to help them help
themselves, so they can be self-governing in Iraq.
But the killing of innocent life for political purposes is not
acceptable in the 21st century. And you know that, and I believe
that.
Q I assure you that, you know, the Arab people really have
nothing against the American people. Maybe the only -- the only issue
is the Palestinian-Israeli --
THE PRESIDENT: -- Israeli issue, yes.
Q -- and the American bias to it.
THE PRESIDENT: I hope we can get that solved. I mean, I truly
believe that a peaceful state will emerge. And, listen, I've got great
respect for Arab culture; I've got great respect for the Muslim
religion. I reject this notion that this is a war against Muslims.
This is not a war against Muslims. The Muslim religion is a peaceful
religion. Islam is peace. This is a war against evil people who want
to kill innocent life. That's what this is.
And it is -- they've killed in our country. They've killed in your
country. They killed a great man in Sadat. And it's essential that
freedom-loving people and peaceful people fight terror. It's the call
of our time; it's the challenge of the 21st century. And we've got to
work together to do so.
And I appreciate you giving me a chance to visit and share my views
to the people who need to learn more about our intentions and our deep
desire for peace.
Q I do thank you very, very, very much.
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you, sir.
Q And I hope to see you very soon.
THE PRESIDENT: Good job. Very good job. Very good interview.
END 4:09 P.M. EDT
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