Wikipedia talk:Featured picture candidates

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This is the talk page for discussing the Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates Wikipedia page.
If you wish to suggest an image that might be appropriate as a Featured Picture Candidate, please do so at Wikipedia:Picture peer review.
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Contents

[edit] Original Research in image discussions

I was chided for improperly researching for my opinion on the nomination for lions feeding. Originally, I replied there, but then I realized it was a huge chunk of irrelevant text the closer would have to wade through, so I figured it would be better to respond here instead. I wrote:

Images, are, in a way, original research, so criticizing discussion of images because it violates the policy against original research is a bit strange to begin with. It would be original research of me to go to Africa and write an expose on tame conditions at supposedly wild places. However, I'm not writing anything FOR the encyclopedia. The burden of proof is on the side of information, not lack of information. It is backwards to claim that someone is violating the "no original research" policy by casting doubt on information. 1) I read information 2) I doubt it 3) I bring up my problems with it 4a) someone responds with published research, or in the case of images, more information about how the image was taken or 4b) I remove the information I am skeptical about. Now, if I add in my own suspicions from my own experience, than THAT is original research. If I were to put on the image page "this image has suspiciously low shorn grass and might be from a zoo" that would be WORSE than original research; it would be wild speculation. However, this discussion is neither an encyclopedic article or an image description page, so I can bring up my problems, including speculation, other people can see where I'm coming from, and try to resolve the issue. For example, in one of fir's beetle pictures, I thought the white spots on the beetle might be injuries. This was just speculation, but Fir simply told me that all of the beetles had the same white spots, so I was good. In the case of this lions eating image, I'm particularly skeptical because the photographer didn't nominate, and it's easy for people get the origin of a image wrong, especially when they are translating it. Enuja 21:57, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it's really important that we all be skeptical about photographs. It is important to know that Black Hole is an artist's rendering, it's important to know how big the Soyuz is, and a huge number of other things. Speculation behind skepticism is not original research; it's a necessary part of removing errors from any collection of images. Now, I don't want to sound too serious here; I thought gren's comment "I'm not sure... but, I think you might be looking into the bloody carcass of the lawn mower. But that too is original research and should not influence your opinion :D" was hilarious, and gren's and trialsanderrors' comments together help me understand why the grass might be so uniformly low. But I want to make sure that skepticism is encouraged, not discouraged. Enuja 23:32, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree, and the spirit of WP:OR is to eliminate uncitable claims in articles not in discussions of articles.Debivort 23:40, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
WP:NOR is for contributions to articles, not for WP or talk page discussions. ~ trialsanderrors 00:01, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
WP:NOR says it is bad to have original research as article content, not necessarily in discussions about content. Debivort 00:22, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
So we're all in agreement then? I don't think the closer would've taken the objection into account anyway. ~ trialsanderrors 01:28, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] two backlogged noms

The two bird noms in the Decision time section are stale and awaiting a closer. They've been in that section for more than three and four weeks! I'd close them, but I have edits in the running. Debivort 01:48, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

  • If I could, I would. But it's even harder with only one hand. If I closed them (as promote), and if someone is willing to do the drudgery then clearing backlogs would be easy. MER-C 12:27, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Done. Gawd, we really do need a helperbot for promotions. Feel free to slap me if I missed something. --YFB ¿ 14:27, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
      • User:PS2pcGAMER was testing one, but then disappeared. See Archive 12#Promotion bot testing. ~ trialsanderrors 03:29, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
        • There were some changes in the process of closing a featured picture candidate since the bot was created. I tried updating the bot to account for this, but as I have never coded in Python, I didn't get very far. In my initial testing closing only failed noms, some changes were needed to the code, such as adding a category (which is trivial enough to code) and removing {{fpc|*}} on the image page. If the image page just has {{fpc}}, the bot was able to automatically remove it without issue. I am not sure what other bugs existed for doing failed nominations. I didn't test what would happen if the nomination was successful. If anyone has any experience with pywikipedia or wants to find someone who does, I don't see anything wrong with modifying Veledan's work (see User:Veledan/FP Promoter/Source). When copying and pasting the code, click on edit first and then copy and paste it from the edit box. Otherwise, you will get utf-8 errors when trying to run it. --PS2pcGAMER (talk) 03:39, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
          • Well, that's a start. I'll drop HighInBC a note, he's pretty handy with this sort of thing. Cheers, both. --YFB ¿ 03:42, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Explain exactly what it needs to do, and I will put it on my list of things to do. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 03:59, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Awesome! Basically it needs to do as much as possible of the closing procedures described on the FPC page. For promotions, the only part that I expect would need human input (off the top of my head, I may have missed something) would be identifying the right category of FPs and perhaps naming the main article which it illustrates. The closing procedure seems to have got much, much more complicated over the past year or so, it's a real pain to do by hand nowadays. --YFB ¿ 04:05, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
As long as it works on Linux, it's fine by me. I was also planning to do this kind of thing, but never got around to doing it. MER-C 09:30, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I was originally thinking of a wizard for closing FPCs, with copies distributed out to all significant FPC closers. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to write it in the foreseeable future. MER-C 13:18, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I can write it, but someone else will need to run it, I have too many things going on my computer. I will make it *nix compatible, it may even work on a *gasp* Mac as well as real computers(hehe). It may take a little while as I am working on another bot as well. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 13:17, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
If you can write it, I can run it. That's the easy part :-) --YFB ¿ 13:20, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I just read the instructions, all the human would have to do is put "{{FPCresult|Not promoted| }} --~~~~ [[Category:Ended featured picture nominations]]" or "{{FPCresult|Promoted|Image:FILENAME.JPG}} --~~~~ [[Category:Ended featured picture nominations]]" on the page and the bot will do the rest. It should be easy to write, though there are rather a few steps for a promotion. I can see why you want a bot to do it. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 13:33, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
The user would probably also need to point the bot to the right category of Featured Pictures (e.g. architecture, mammals, etc.). --YFB ¿ 13:47, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Hey, what do you folks think of the bots deciding if a picture can be promoted or not? I can look at how many of what colors are used, and compare that the the success rate of the nominators previous nominations and their block log. I may even be able to get the bot to choose it's own image nominations based on how busy their talk pages are... (I am kidding) HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 13:35, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Uhm, not that I'd want to fight about who writes it, but I already have a promotion bot for commons QI which could be adapted, and I have a toolserver account to run the bot... --Dschwen 13:37, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Given the differences between the two procedures, I would have thought adapting it would be almost as much work as writing a new one? I'll leave the two of you to fight it out, but the use of a toolserver account is a good idea. High, how come you haven't gone down that route with your other bots? --YFB ¿ 13:47, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Date and Username detection, nomination archival, and user notification are tasks needed for both procedures. It's more similar than you might guess at first glance. --Dschwen 13:54, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Fair enough - good luck! :-) --YFB ¿ 14:13, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Please Dschwen take the job, I have not even started. I have another bot request on the table for WP:CHU and WP:USURP. I am thinking of a toolserver account, just never got around to it. HighInBC(Need help? Ask me) 13:50, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I have a free day tomorrow. Let's see how far I get. --Dschwen 13:54, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I know little about programming and robot manufacturing, but...

Did anything ever come of this? (H) 20:57, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Move suspended noms to subpage

I would like to suggest we move the suspended nominations to a subpage (/suspended nominations or whatever). The main FPC page is long enough, and the suspendees are just tacked on the end. They don't require voter input but rather a (almost always) confirmation of accuracy or copyright. When something develops, they can be moved back into the "further input needed" section. Until, let's keep them out of the way.--HereToHelp 01:57, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

But in order for something to develop, voters and users familiar with accuracy or copyright have to be able to find the discussion. A subpage would deviate attention away from the very nominations that need it. --Tewy 03:28, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I worry they would just be forgotten - I mean, even closed noms on this page are forgotten for weeks. Debivort 03:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kimi Raikkenon Nom

Hi,
First up, sorry for not keeping this on the discussion of the actual nom, but just didn't get time to do it while it was up. I really think we need to review FP's such as Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Kimi Räikkönen and others which contain copyrighted logos on them. The reason I'm relatively sure that such images can't be licensed freely is because I've tried to submit photos of motocross riders with logos on their jackets etc to istockphoto and they were rejected because the logos are copyrighted against reproduction without permission. I think this FP and similar ones would run into the same trouble as the licenses they are under include in discriminatory commercial use. --Fir0002 12:03, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I would have thought that Wikipedia may be more exempt from such extreme restrictions but I suppose if the images are licenced as unrestricted commercially then the same may apply. I know for a fact that iStockphoto doesn't accept anything remotely trademarked. I even submitted a panoramic view of the Thames in London that featured the London Eye on the left side of the frame and it was rejected because the image of the London Eye is trademarked... iStockphoto are in my opinion far too overcautious (yet inconsistent - there ARE a few London Eye photos on there that have slipped through the cracks) but I have no idea of the legality of Wikipedia using similar images. Diliff | (Talk) (Contribs) 12:14, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
To echo Diliff's observations, if this happens to be the case, then many images licensed as free on wiki are not. Consider the images in the Times Square article. I'm not a copyright expert by any means, but I think that the quality and proportion of logo present are important to consider. Also, the car itself may be considered a trademarked entity, and subject then to fair-use under critic/demonstrative criteria. Thoughts? --Cody.Pope 12:42, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Stock libraries have to be careful what they are permitted to license for use themselves, so when content looks like it might require licensing an already-licensed image (of whatver kind) they turn it down. Wiki images also have to be re-licensed, but there are both protocols for uploading images and guidelines for images that include them within the frame, at WP:LOGO. One part expressly states:

    It is not necessary to seek formal permission from the owner in advance of using their logo, so long as the usage is fair use, does not create any impression that the logo is associated with or endorses Wikipedia or the article it appears in, and does not create any reasonable grounds for complaint by the owner.

    and I would tend not to be put off by anything other than non-contextual logo use. Not sure a review is not in order, but I'd say the stock libraries approach was way too restricted. mikaultalk 12:49, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I just visited the Science Museum in London, where they have Mika Häkkinen's crashed Formula 1 car on display. There is a "NO PHOTO" sign in front of it, and I asked an attendant why. She told me the sponsors don't want to be associated with a crashed car - very logical. In fact, they have put a large sheet of Scotchlite under the car, which will spoil any attemps to shoot the car with flash (don't ask me why I know... ;-), and the very, very low ambient lighting necessitates hand-held exposures of around 1 or 2 seconds at f4... (don't ask me why I know... ;-) --Janke | Talk 13:52, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thread removed

Unproductive thread speedily archived. --YFB ¿ 17:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Good call, lets leave it that way. (H) 17:43, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I normally oppose that practice but in this case I agree very good call, ranting personal attack threads have no home here. Cat-five - talk 15:40, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Question

I have found a picture that fits all the requirements for a featured picture. However it was originally uploaded on the French Wikipedia and as such I have a hard time using it. Also it is kind of tricky to list the author. Can I still nominate it?--St.daniel Talk 20:14, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

What's the image?--Pharos 20:19, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
If it is under a free license then it can be moved to the Commons, and then used here. (H) 20:56, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Ok thanks --St.daniel Talk 11:45, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
When moving the image to Commons, use CommonsHelper to generate the description for you. howcheng {chat} 17:50, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] clarification of historically mitigating circumstances / possible rewrite needed of those

First of all I'll be the first to admit that I have no idea how to best do it but from reading recent historical FPC's there seems to be a lot of confusion and argument about the historical picture guidelines and while I hate instruction creep as much as the next person I think they should really be clarified or possibly even totally rewritten. Cat-five - talk 15:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I was just looking at this while copyediting the featured picture criteria. Historical images are cited as exceptions to the first three criteria there, which might warrant a separate note or guideline, but I figured it would probably amount to no more that a reiteration of the mentions they already have there. I'm also considering a proposal to include a guideline about retouching of historical images in criterion #9. I'd certaonly be interested to hear any proposal you have.
I'm not aware of any other set of guidelines about this – are there more somewhere else?
mikaultalk 19:45, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't think there is any other set but if your thinking that a different set of guidelines for retouching historicals vs non historicals I agree entirely because they're two entirely different things though we'd have to be careful about instruction creep as always. Cat-five - talk 15:56, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Commons

Although this has been probably discussed before. Why do we not "stop" this process completely. We should encourage people to upload their images to commons and commons should take care of all our free licensed images. Commons does have its own featured picture thing. Featured images should be shared by all wikis by default. -- Cat chi? 23:30, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

It's to do with encyclopedic images; less of an issue on commons, hence different criteria here. mikaultalk 00:31, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Commons FPC has very different criteria from the English Wikipedia's FPC. Some/many of the images promoted there wouldn't stand a chance here and vice versa. --KFP (talk | contribs) 10:37, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
What I want to achieve is to have one location for our source of images. Featured pictures are the best English wikipedia has to offer so I feel they are more then welcome on commons. I sincerely believe that commons should be preferred location for free uploads. Because of the gradual move of all free images to commons, this process here will eventually become completely useless as on the long run we will not have any free images on en.wikipedia and instead in commons. These images are of decent quality and should be used on all wikis.
No one is forced by the foundation to use commons but on the long run it would be quite strange for people not to use it.
We can fix both procedures or we can move this process to commons for example.
-- Cat chi? 13:29, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Most of the English Wikipedia's featured pictures are hosted at Wikimedia Commons and all of them should be. The featured picture process here is for identifying free images that greatly enhance articles on the English Wikipedia. --KFP (talk | contribs) 13:35, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Thats fine by me. I would however find it more productive to have a more unified FPC process. We are one wikimedia site as a whole even if our individual project goals may be different. -- Cat chi? 13:54, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
The Commons FP process is more about "pretty pictures" and the criteria there specifically says encyclopedic value isnt a consideration where as the FP process here is about encyclopedic value. As such en.FP should be solely the result of what our community thinks as such it needs to within our pages. Gnangarra 14:12, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
See this page, if you haven't already. Of course, all wiki media should ultimately have a base there and only there, but it's still very early days. At present, AFAIK, there's no tireless bot around progressively migrating all Wikipedia images to commons, but that's what is required and is certainly on the cards. The process will go almost unnoticed by wiki users and editors alike, as things will work in exactly the same way. One thing which won't ever change, however, is the need for WP:FP. It's just a category, basically, but one relevant solely to the encyclopedia (in a way that COM:FP isn't) and a great incentive for people to upload quality WP:ENC photos. Commons exists alomst solely to avoid duplication of media resources, not to relieve other wiki projects of their specific duties and responsibilities. WP:FP should clearly stay right here within the encyclopedia. mikaultalk 14:38, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Commons is a multi-language free content media aggregator; we are an encyclopedia. The needs of the two aren't same, and I would anticipate that over time the fraction of images that have seperate descriptions/categorization on Wikipedia will only increase. WP:FP is just one aspect of that. In fact, viewed purely from an English Wikipedia point of view there is really no advantage for us in ever uploading to Commons rather than locally. Dragons flight 15:14, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
  • I'd also like to point out that commons only allows free licenses where as wikipedia allows fair use as well. Some people (like me) are not fully supportive of commons goal to "creat a free media repository" It bothers me that any company out there. Even something nasty like Shell Petrolium, could use my photos in their adds without my consent. Plus, by uploading quality images there, it makes getting money for photos all the more dificult. Anyway, I think that that fact makes a compelling reason to keep a seperate place for pictures. -67.170.166.185 16:20, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Second opinions requested

Can I have a few second opinions on how to close Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Burrowing Owl, please? I feel that unencyclopedic and technical concerns turn what would be an obvious promotion decision into something that's really borderline. Also, should I box it for the time being, to indicate that !voting has closed. MER-C 08:35, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Even though it's in the borderline range (69% if I counted and did my math right) it's still in the promotion range I think but if in doubt it should be put under the more comments needed section and left open for a little while longer to get more input. Cat-five - talk 09:10, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Under a straight vote-count, this would be a simple promotion. If consideration is given to the detail in the rationales and reference to the Featured Picture Criteria, it starts to look a bit shaky - I count 7 supports which provide no rationale at all beyond "great image" or "beautiful" (these aren't among the criteria), plus another 7 which boil down to "great image, beautiful, encyclopaedic" without any qualification of what is encyclopaedic about it other than the fact that it's a picture of an animal for which we have an article. On that basis, I think it'd be a "not promoted"... although - caveat - I was one of the opposers. --YFB ¿ 21:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I concur. I would say there's no consensus here. The opposition arguments are lot stronger IMHO. howcheng {chat} 21:21, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
That's an extremely slippery slope though, countless noms would be promoted if we discounted all the oppose votes that didn't cite a reason, if we're going to be really by the book on this then we need to write down and implement that any votes without a policy based reasoning included in the vote will be discounted. Cat-five - talk 00:56, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't know if I agree completely. Discounting of oppose votes would generally only occur when there is a significant argument raised for the promotion of the image that was not addressed. And vice-versa (and probably more likely), a support vote might be discounted if it did not address a significant reason for opposition. A lot of FPCs aren't very contentious and it comes down to a matter of opinion and taste - in which case it probably wouldn't be necessary to ignore simple supports or opposes, while other images may be fatally flawed with many voters ignoring an important criteria. It should be stressed that the more justification you provide with a vote, the less likely it is to be overlooked or discounted, but I don't think there will ever be a simple/automated way to find consensus for all scenarios. It will always be necessary to look at each case individually. Diliff | (Talk) (Contribs) 06:58, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Well put. --YFB ¿ 16:35, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

There is now a third version, recropped to 4X3 ratio.--MONGO 05:02, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mixed up

Two delist noms are in the suspended nom section. Anybody care to fix that? --Janke | Talk 07:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

The delist nominations can also be suspended. In both cases, higher res versions are pending. Jumping cheese Cont@ct 08:12, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
OK, didn't realize that. Thanks, --Janke | Talk 18:43, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
np >_< Jumping cheese Cont@ct 06:46, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unauthorised use of a recently featured picture

This isn't strictly relevent to FPC, but as it involves a recent FP and others have previously expressed interest...

User:Noclip recently informed me that Apple has used my Colosseum image in a video demonstration for the "Time Machine" (actual quicktime video here of their new OS). I have not released this image anywhere else other than Wikipedia (istockphoto rejected it for having potentially copyrighted content - the bilboard advertising a gallery, I think). Given that they have not met the terms of the licence (attribution and providing a copy of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 licence), surely I have grounds to take legal action for unauthorised use of the image? Presumably for a not unsubstantial amount considering the significance and potential audience of the video. Any thoughts? Is there anywhere else that may be a more appropriate place to discuss this? Diliff | (Talk) (Contribs) 07:45, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Wow that is pretty stunning. Congrats, I guess. I guess if I were you I would look into lawyers? Debivort 08:28, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I wonder if the Apple culprit is an active FPC participant, or just a lurker ... Debivort 09:32, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Shifty eyes... Jumping cheese 09:50, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm not a lawyer, but it's clear that Apple did not meet the terms of license after watching the video. I agree with Debivort. If you really want to peruse the matter further, I would suggest contacting a lawyer to discuss possible remedies. Or you can wait for free legal advice from the lawyers on Wikipedia. ;) Jumping cheese 09:24, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, its not that I'm desperate to bleed them for whatever I can get, although I do think it is fair that they compensate for any profit they make from the image. What I find curious is that they could have used any high quality but completely free image (of which there are many), but instead they chose mine which had very specific terms of use that they evidently ignored. Diliff | (Talk) (Contribs) 10:51, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Crikey. That was a bit silly of them. You might want to email/phone the Foundation about that one and see if they feel like helping you out, since you're sure Apple got the image from Wikipedia/Commons. Definitely some kudos in it for you though, even if you did find out about it through the wrong channels. I certainly think you should expect some recompense... it's not like they can't afford to pay for images to use in their ad campaigns, or as you said, take the time to use an actual free one, rather than ignoring the Commons licence. The irony of it is that I just watched that video in Apple's new Safari-for-Windows... --YFB ¿ 12:26, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Ya, enforce it. For gods sake you are putting grade A material out there for free and you only ask that you get attribution and that derivative works hold the same license. It is the least they can do. I don't think the foundation will help you with this matter though, as it is your copyright. (H) 13:21, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
User:BD2412 is an intellectual property lawyer. You may want to consult him for advice. howcheng {chat} 15:51, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

At least contact Apple and see what they say. If they stick their lawyers on you, you know they are running scared. On the other hand, they may have a good explanation (ie. where they got it from), and point you to someone reusing Commons images and selling them to people like Apple. On a side-note, I see that they cropped your image - which I think improves it - they've cut out the kebab van in the lower right background! :-) If Apple are very apologetic, extract some free pics from them. Carcharoth 16:22, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I don't know what the legal situation would be as far as re-selling of images, but with a company like Apple who obviously are going to have legal eagles aplenty, it's not in the least bit unreasonable to expect them to make sure they don't violate licensing terms in their ads. Quite obviously they'll be "apologetic" but since they're happily making money off Diliff's work without so much as a credit line, if I was him I'd expect to extract a little more than free pics and a stock apology. What do you mean "free pics" anyway? --YFB ¿ 16:34, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Wow! I can't believe they would be so brazen as to display an easily recognized photo multiple times in such a high profile presentation. I don't have much legal advice to give you, but I strongly encourage you to take some action. This happens all too often without anyone noticing. Recently I was on vacation 300+ miles away from home and stumbled upon a much more obscure image being used without attribution/authorization by a small alternative weekly publication. I hope that my bringing attention to it at least discourages them from being cheap/lazy and just stealing pictures from Wikipedia in the future. Cacophony 16:35, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I can only repeat what's above. Certainly they should know better. Trebor 21:29, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I have a similar situation involving a half dozen of my climate change images, a well-known magazine, and a lack of GFDL compliance. In that case though, they did provide an acknowledgment to me but there is no reference to the GFDL as required. Dragons flight 20:48, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I guess the ultimate confimation of being a great artist is when someone tries to steel your work :( - Just make sure in the settlement you ask for the new: mac pro 8-core G5, 16GBs of ram, 3TB Hard drive. and Apature pro as well. I would talk to a lawyer before talking to Apple, the lawyer would know how to procede. Best of luck. -Fcb981 22:32, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, seconded. If you haven't already done so, get legal advice before you contact Apple, to avoid prejudicing your case or whatever the term is. --YFB ¿ 23:51, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Creative Commons recommends this group for Australians. You can contact an apparently similar-oriented London group here.--Pharos 00:06, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

  • Thanks for the advice, guys... I'm not very au fait with legal process, but if I'm going to take legal action against a US-based company, I'm assuming I would have to do it with a US-based lawyer in the US, in which case London based lawyers may not be the best people to speak to... Or as someone based in the UK, could the action be taken against them in the UK? I suppose I'm going to have to submit to a crash-course in Law to sort this out! Diliff | (Talk) (Contribs) 06:50, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
You have a three year time limit to pursue legal recourse.[1] I guess you can take a class... ;) Jumping cheese 14:23, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I am a U.S. lawyer, based in Philadelphia. email me at dbrennan@dilworthlaw.com Spikebrennan 19:23, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I know I'm a little late in this conversation, but I really hope that you do take legal action ... if nothing else, it will help protect this sort of license from being abused in the future. I love Apple, but there's no excuse for this type of behavior. As a sidenote, I was in the Vatican a few weeks ago, and I thought I saw this picture on a postcard. Took a pic of it so I could check when I got home, but it was a false alarm :o) tiZom(2¢) 17:09, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Be careful with astronomy pics

Please be careful with astronomy pics. Featured picture: Image:Sun,_Earth_size_comparison_labeled.jpg was deleted because the SOHO project, like the ESA as a whole, follow a non-commercial license for the reuse of their images. This is the second time I can recall seeing a featured astronomy pic deleted for having an incorrect license. Dragons flight 14:06, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Good point. I note that Davepape raised this concern during the nomination but it wasn't addressed before Raven4x4x promoted it. Should probably have ended up in the Suspended Nominations category until that was clarified, but we all make mistakes. I'll make a point of checking licences for astronomy images. Cheers for the heads up, Dragons flight. --YFB ¿ 14:39, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Even NASA pics can't really be trusted anymore since they now work with outside companies who may or may not have their pictures released under PD per government regulations as is the case with pictures taken directly by NASA (with the exception of their logo and all other gov logos but that's a different issue) Cat-five - talk 16:38, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
On NASA sites there is often a notice saying they are PD unless stated otherwise. On such sites they point out when there are restrictive licenses. On other sites it is less clear. (H) 05:17, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suspended noms

We have three suspended nominations that have been around for over a month, and they all seem to have been neglected. Austrian Barrel Organ and Mt. Rainier seem to be waiting on higher resolution images, but both photographers haven't edited since May. Emblem of the Papacy was nominated in March, but had some form of accuracy dispute and hasn't had any new comments since April. I'd like to finally do something with these if I can; for the first two I'll ask the photographers if they're still editing, but I'm not sure what to do about the Papal emblam. Any suggestions? Raven4x4x 06:31, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, the Emblem of the Papacy has been sitting there for quite a while now. Although almost all the voes are for support, the accuracy issue still remains. How about placing a link at the top of the page asking for more feedback?!? As for the other pics awaiting higher-res versions, how about placing a time limit on them? For example, after one month (or however months the community decide upon) and a high-res version is not uploaded in that time period, the pic is automatically reopened for delisting voting based on the low-res version. Thoughts? Jumping cheese 01:50, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] relisting

I don't understand the protocol behind taking some old nominations back to the top of the page. This has happened a few times sporadically recently, and if I had been closing the noms, I would have closed them, with no promotion, under the rationale "no consensus formed to support the image within a week." (Note - a lack of consensus to promote is different from a consensus not to promote). How do we know when a nom gets a second chance to attract attention? Debivort 05:51, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I was wondering the same thing, and I think nominations should only be relisted if there are too few votes. If there aren't enough votes to determine anything (consensus or lack thereof), perhaps some extra opinions could sway consensus in one direction, or at least reinforce a weak consensus. But if there are already enough votes to determine that there is no consensus, then the nomination has run its course, with consensus to promote not reached. Relisting the nomination would only bring in more votes that disagree. --Tewy 06:14, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
But the instructions pretty clearly say "For promotion, if an image is listed here for about seven days with four or more supporting votes (including the nominator), and the consensus is in its favor, it can be added to the Wikipedia:Featured pictures list." These noms were in the evaluation stage for seven or more days but didn't garner four or more supporting votes. I think we should either:
1) not relist them - but just close with no promotion, or
2) change the wording in the above closure instruction. Perhaps to something like: "Nominations are under voting consideration for seven days, or until there are at least four votes including the nominator's. After this time, if the image attains a consensus is in its favor, it can be added to the Wikipedia:Featured pictures list."
Thoughts? Debivort 06:31, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
(2) is ambiguous and an example of how difficult it will be to define what is, in effect, a slightly vague time-slot.(1) may be a little harsh, but it makes more sense. The reality is noms hang about for more than seven days anyway. With this welcome flexibility and a commitment to delist once it seems unikely to be promoted, we have a "back door" which can be exited and the nom re-entered if anyone cares enough to do it. I wonder, though, whether a re-nom shouldn't be allowed within a certain time – say a month? – to allow time to "freshen the eye" with repect to the image. Good call this, it was starting to bug me too :) mikaultalk 07:31, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
It's possible that if a nomination has under four votes, it was simply nominated at a bad time and didn't get a fair run, so stretching the seven day limit a bit might bring in some more votes that could sway consensus towards promotion. But I do agree that for the most part, if a nomination has run its course, there should be no promotion. --Tewy 19:21, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Good points Mik and Tewy - so - how do we resolve this so that all noms are treated uniformly? Debivort 19:31, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
That's why it's about seven days. MER-C 13:31, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
The nomination I most recently relisted was the Moon one. At the time I came to close it there was one support (from the nominator), one comment and one oppose. Technically yes I could have closed it due to lack of consensus, but it hardly seems fair to decide anything from such a small sample size. I would only do this for noms with an extreme lack of comments, eg I closed this one, as even with a lack of comments it was obvious where consensus was heading. It seems to me that if consensus is impossible to determine because of a lack of comments then that isn't fair on the picture. Raven4x4x 01:12, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
I think fairness derives from uniform application of the promotion rules to all noms. If noms should be given extra time for voting, then let's build that into the procedure - I outlined one possible way above. Debivort 01:44, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The "about seven days" comes from afd, which I'm sure most of us are familiar with. I don't have any particular view on relisting, except that is should happen when there is insufficient opinions to decide. If I'm not sure, I just leave it until consensus is reached. Either way, I don't think we should codify exactly what consensus is at FPC as Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. (Not to mention that I probably won't read the definition).

Which reminds me, I might get around to zapping that owl one tomorrow. MER-C 13:31, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

There's no reason to lay down laws, I agree, but if the guidelines at the top mentioned lack of clear consensus leading to closure, at least there is something to point people to. The Moon one is a good example of a pic that everyone is so sick of seeing that they just got used to scrolling past and don't even notice it's there. Close it, leave it, and sure as God made little green men, it'll pop back up eventually.mikaultalk 14:04, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Replacing a FP

While I was browsing around the USGS Astrogeology Martian Hemisphere Point Perspectives website I discovered a higher resolution image of Valles Marineris than the current FP of the same subject. Actually it is an identical image, but for some reason the USGS website has a larger image than the NASA website. I realize that I could upload a higher resolution image and link to it through the "Other Versions" field, but wouldn't it be better to have the higher resolution image more prominent? I'm hesitant to step on anyone's toes because it is linked to so many other pages and maybe my idea of "better" would be considered by some to be a step in the wrong direction. Is there some sort of standard in dealing with these types of situations? Please let me know your opinion. Cacophony 09:05, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi. If the image is essentially the same as the current FP but clearly of higher quality, you can just upload the higher quality version over the current one and optionally post a note here. If the image is not essentially the same and clearly of higher quality, you can suggest replacement via Wikipedia:Featured_picture_candidates#Nomination_for_delisting. Cheers, --KFP (talk | contribs) 19:50, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lyndon B. Johnson taking the oath of office

Why was this nomination moved to "suspended nominations"? Debivort's copyright concern appears to have been a joke. There are obviously no copyright problems with this standard White House release. Chick Bowen 04:38, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Never mind--dealt with. Chick Bowen 04:39, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
The joke wasn't that obvious, so I understand the misunderstanding by the user who closed the nomination. ^_^ Jumping cheese 04:44, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
D'oh! Next time, more smiley faces. Debivort 05:53, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discrepancy in the featured picture count

There is about a 1% discrepancy in the number of featured pictures at the moment. See WT:FP#Discrepancy in the featured picture count for more information. Please comment over there. MER-C 13:11, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Problem with Rule of Thirds article

Hi all -- I'm having a bit of a problem with an anonymous editor on the article Rule of thirds, who keeps editing the article to include an unsourced statement, on the grounds that he believes it's true without citing a credible reference. His reasoning amounts to unsourced speculation and/or original research. Despite explaining why his statement cannot stand on the talk page, he is being insistent, and if I revert again I will be violating 3RR. I would appreciate it if some of the regular participants here could take part in the discussion there, even if it's to disagree with me. Thanks... -- Moondigger 16:35, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] more on relisting

OK folks - so the practice of relisting noms for greater discussion is clearly well intentioned. The most recent relisting was done with the rationale of generating "a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached."

But, what if this nom gets more attention in this pass, but it is mixed? What if it gets 50% supports and 50% opposes?

Under the normal criteria, we say that's failing to achieve a consensus for promotion. But it certainly isn't a consensus not to promote either! So should we relist noms that are 50/50% (but receive lots of votes) because no consensus has been reached? I say no - they failed to get a promote consensus - just like noms that don't generate enough enthusiasm to get even 4 support votes.

The argument that there was some coincident fluke in voting activity, because of which there are fewer voters active, seems not to hold any water because other simultaneous noms receive plenty of votes and discussion. My two cents. Debivort 04:17, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

First, I agree with the gist of your original point up the page. If no more than four votes are collected withing seven days, a nom should be removed. Lack of response = lack of interest = uncompelling image; I don't buy the "fluke" hypothesis either.
Second, I can't see why there should be special rules on consensus for FPCs. A 50-50 vote is even greater argument for non-promotion than no interest at all, IMO. It does suggest a re-nomination at a later date (I think I suggested a "sabbatical" period of a month up the page somewhere) might be a worthwhile venture, but in the case of those with insufficient votes, nominees should probably take note if the few comments they do get are strongly negative..
In general, relisting should only be for exceptional cases, like updated images, copyright clarification, that sort of thing. mikaultalk 11:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quick opinions

I'm tempted to suggest one more picture of mine: Image:EileanDonanInsideView.jpg - however, I've come to the realisation that I'm a poor judge of my own photographs. Anyone think it's worth nominating? Adam Cuerden talk 23:15, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

This type of question is exactly what Wikipedia:Picture peer review is for. Admittedly, it's not the most watched page on the project, but you might get the feedback you need there. Enuja 23:27, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Might is the key word. I put an image up there three weeks ago and have not had a simple comment on it - good, bad or otherwise. Several other pics have suffered the same fate. AUTiger » talk 00:17, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm not saying don't nominate, but I think there may be some complaints about composition and the completely blown out sky. If in doubt, give it a try. --jjron 09:05, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, the blown out sky would probably be a big complaint, as well as some purple fringing in the upper left. It would be a tough nomination to promote, if you ask me. --Tewy 17:08, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Results of a failed FPC nomination

I have two proposals for steps to be taken whenever a FPC nomination fails:

(1) Per the discussion at Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Christus (mosaic at Ravenna), the image's page can have some kind of indication that the image was nominated for FPC but did not pass. This is done for articles that fail to pass a nomination for Featured Article status. If the concern is that putting a "This picture failed" tag on the image page is degrading to the photographer or uploader, then perhaps a milder approach is to use the tag only for images that might conceivably be re-nominated, so that it's easy for potential nominators to first review the discussion of the original failed nomination.
(2) After the nomination fails, keep the discussion of the failed nomination on Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates for another week or so. Right now, the discussion disappears as soon as the nomination fails, and then an interested party has to poke around in the archives to see what the last few comments were and what the admin's comments (if any) were.

Thoughts? Spikebrennan 20:22, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

  • I agree there should be a tag, if only for the convenience of nominators. Failed FA and GA noms get such a tag, I believe. BTW, spike, the discussions don't disappear, they are simply archived, eg: Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/July-2007. Debivort 22:09, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
  • I disagree for the reason you stated. People, even though they shouldn't, judge a photo which has failed a FPC nom as worse than if it had never been put up. I remember a while ago (maybe half a year) the people over at the water article were debating what to use as the lead image. And one of my photos was suggested, but the fact that it had previously failed a FPC nom was used as a bad point about it. People can relatively easily see the file links history with a FPC subpage in it and see that it has previously been nominated IMO --Fir0002 22:20, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I tend to agree with Fir. Just hit control+F and type "featured picture candidates". However, consensus can change and renominations on possibly feature-worthy images are OK after a reasonable period of time. MER-C 12:13, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
FWIW, I think a tag could be made quite polite and even encouraging of renomination, that said, it is more work for the already over-burdened closers, and that is my source of ambivalence. What happened to the bot effort? Debivort 14:54, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't know, but the volume is too low for a bot to be useful at the moment (hint, hint) - it would be quicker to do it manually at the moment. MER-C 12:04, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Debivort, I am aware that the discussions are archived, but simply keeping them on the main FPC page for, say, a week, under a category called something like "Recently closed nominations" would enable one to find the information all in one place. Alternately, "Recently closed nominations" can simply be a link to the appropriate section of the archive page. Spikebrennan 10:48, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
The latter idea - a link to the the current archive page is a great idea, but I won't support making the FPC page longer and even clumsier to load unless the reason was really compelling. Debivort 14:54, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I would not leave the images an extra week. Even on a high speed line, this page is huge and sometimes slow. I would like a link to recently closed nominations placed on the page, just for ease of use. I do like the idea of adding a "this was a FPC" box to the image; for our purposes it is easy to tell from the "this image is linked from" section of the page, and I don't think it is useful anywhere else. Zakolantern 16:30, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
A link to recently closed nominations would be better than leaving them for a week, I also support the "FPC box" idea ;) 8thstar 16:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Fir in that you can simply view the "File links" section of the subpage to see if the image had been nominated before. I also agree with others that creating a new section would make an already large page huge. I understand the reasons for these proposals, but they're just not needed at this time. --Tewy 17:31, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Fir.. a permanent "failed fpc" box will only act as a disincentive, and be unfair on photographers who have their works nominated by others, only to have the image tarred with a 'not good enough' tag. It's not like reviewers of fpc's have any problem working out which images have failed previously anyway. —Pengo 07:36, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
  • When I first looked at this, this proposal sounded good, but as I thought about it, it seemed like less and less of a good idea. For one thing, the closing procedure is already too complicated. For another, it is true that "failed nom" looks like a scarlet letter. If the closing procedure ever becomes automated, I'd be interested in putting a failed FPC template on the image's talk page (not the image page itself), but that's about it. I, too have wondered: "what was the decision on that FPC nom I voted on?" but it really isn't hard to check the archive or watch a subpage you're particularly interested in. Enuja 13:22, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Oppose links tag per Fir0002 and others; the file links section is sufficient. And there's already a link to the recently closed nominations on the FPC page, although I must say it's not all that obvious (at the top of the page in the list of links in the blue box on the right-hand side, it's the third bottom one called Featured picture archive; it goes straight to the current month). --jjron 08:45, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Whats going on here?

Aguest 9 picture of the day

Picture of the day
Nevado de Toluca

Nevado de Toluca is a large stratovolcano in central Mexico, located about 80 km west of Mexico City near the city of Toluca. It is generally cited as the fourth highest of Mexico's peaks, after Pico de Orizaba, Popocatépetl, and Iztaccíhuatl, although by some measurements, Sierra Negra is slightly higher. It is often called by the Nahuatl name Xinantécatl, "Senor Desnudo" in spanish, which is usually translated as "The Naked Man" although other etymologies have been suggested such as" Lord of the Cornstalks" (chinām(itl) 'cornstalks' + tēcatl 'lord of').

Photo credit: Global Volcanism Program: Nevado de Toluca
Archive – More featured pictures...


that aint featured --Childzy (Talk|Contribs) 23:04, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah. The person who wrote that has been notified. I just haven't gotten around to doing a new one yet. howcheng {chat} 23:21, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
  • thanks for letting me know it fair confused me (not that thats hard) --Childzy (Talk|Contribs) 23:28, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Another count of unauthorised usage...

Hi everyone,
I just came across a violation of one of my own FP's - [2]. They even had the nerve to post a copyright notice of their own on it! They don't look particularly big, but I'm pretty annoyed. Any suggestions as to what course of action to take? --Fir0002 23:51, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, we might need to make it a class action: [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] although obviously the nasa ones would be a different case... --Fir0002 23:54, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Oh man ... nasty letter time? Diliff - how has your Apple pursuit gone? Debivort 00:10, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm still waiting for Diliff to get back in touch with me. Diliff-- contact me. Fir0002, you can email me too if you like. Spikebrennan 17:53, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Am I mistaken, or have they all been uploaded by the user sephirotyang? If so, perhaps the issue becomes one of how can a Web 2.0 website prevent its users from uploading images they shouldn't? We see it happen often enough here. Perhaps the first and most sensible course of action is to contact the site, inform them of what has happened, and request them to be removed. They can then also deal with this rogue user, who incidentally may not even realise he's doing anything wrong. (BTW they've watermarked them, but I don't think they've put a copyright on them). --jjron 09:53, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

They have a contact email where it says you can report copyvios: ben at educatedearth dot net. MER-C 12:17, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, as before, contact them, and see what they do. If they co-operate and apologise, fine. If not, its time for the letter. Most people will apologise and either credit you, or take the photo down. Getting credit and attribution would be good advertising for Wikipedia. Carcharoth 12:22, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Considering their header image includes a copyvio image from Star Trek, I can't think that they're too particularly concerned about copyrights. howcheng {chat} 07:15, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reopening Sarrus linkage

this nomination ultimately resulted in the original uploader uploading an alternate version that addressed many of the concerns that had caused voters to oppose. I would suggest re-opening the nomination with the alternate image (by the time it was uploaded, it was near the bottom of the queue and people may have missed it.) Spikebrennan 17:36, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Can a nomination be reopened after it was closed? I think a better method would be to nominate the new version and mention the previous nomination. Jumping cheese 09:13, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Agree - renominate if you feel it deserves it and think it really is a significant improvement, with a link to the prior nom. From my experience things really seem to struggle on renominations though. --jjron 09:24, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Closing long-term suspended nominations

We have a whole bunch of nominations that are cluttering the bottom of the WP:FPC page for months without resolution in sight. I think we should change the procedure on how to deal with them. A free license is a criterion that trumps all others, and it's the nominator's obligation to establish that the picture has a free license. If s/he can't do that within the seven day period we should consider the nomination failed with the provision that it can be renominated once the license status is clarified. ~ trialsanderrors 18:15, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

How about we say that nominations can be suspended, pending clarification of license issues or whatever, for at most 1 week. Debivort 18:56, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
A week is fine for comments, but not if you need to contact authors etc as well: this can take much more than a week, as we have seen. Not much point in giving it any time-limit if it's going to be unrealistically short and leave no time for a consensus to form once it's resolved. I agree that a reasonable limit should be in place (and that some candidates have been around for an unreasonably long time) but the max period in the suspension zone should be nearer a month than a week. Of course, this sort of thing should really be sorted out before an image is nominated in the first place, so the allowance would only apply to issues raised in the course of the nom which appear to be easily-resolved. mikaultalk 23:51, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Trailsanderrors' suggestion original. I know re-noms often don't do too well, but if you simply renominate something and say "previous nomination closed because of copyright concerns which are now resolved" I don't think having been nominated before will hurt nominations at all. Enuja 04:10, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Well the only reason I can see why we might keep them open/suspended/on the FPC page is that it might get the attention other editors who would want to help resolve the licensing issue. Empirically it looks like this rarely ever happens. So it really come down to an interaction between nominator and closer. I can see two cases: 1. The nomination ends with a clear "conditional support" consensus, in which case the closer can simply change the "fail" to a "pass" once an acceptable license is provided; and 2. the nomination was sidetracked by the licensing issue, in which case a renomination might be inevitable anyway. Neither case benefits from an indefinite suspension of the discussion. ~ trialsanderrors 19:37, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
We could also make a sub-page for suspended nominations, and provide only a link to that page from the main page. Would place the burden on nominators to keep things fresh on that page. Debivort 22:33, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Good idea. The biggest issue with removing suspended noms is the loss of accumulated comments, notably so with the "conditional support" example, which this would avoid. There should probably still be a time limit, following which the nominee should be notified of the candidate's pending removal, as it's likely to be something of a backwater page. mikaultalk 23:36, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
OK if someone wants to create a separate page it has my support. I would close them as "not promoted – can be reopened if the licensing status changes." ~ trialsanderrors 19:23, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
All right - what do you all think of Wikipedia:Suspended_featured_picture_candidates? If we like it, all that is required is removing that section from WP:FPC and update the link in Template:FPCQuickLinks. Debivort 03:02, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm ok wth it, as long as they disappear from the main page. Let's check back in three months if anything happened to those nominations. ~ trialsanderrors 06:24, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I like the suspended page idea, though slighty worried they may be forgotten about --Childzy ₪ Talk 07:02, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
The suspended page addresses the problem well. The nominator can update the entry to say whether anything is still going forward, and I agree after two or three months of inactivity the nomination can be closed. If a closer doesn't get round to the page for a month or two, it won't really matter. ~ Veledan • T 23:23, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I do not like the idea of the suspended noms being on their own page. With them out of the way, they're out of sight and out of mind and I think even less will happen with them. What I'd prefer to see is no suspended noms; if the copyright hasn't been worked out by the 7 day limit, then the nom should fail. Others, like the Haast eagle picture, seem to have been suspended partly because people stopped paying attention to other folks' comments, so moving to another page only exacerbates the issue. An example like the Haast eagle could be given a wee bit of leeway while the artist is contacted and then closed if that doesn't resolve things. If need be, any pic can be re-nominated with a link to the old comments. Matt Deres 13:40, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POTD credits

FPC regulars may be interested in this discussion: Talk:Main Page#Photo credit for picture of the day. howcheng {chat} 07:16, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Does anyone think it's worth resurrecting the bot?

Some people may remember that before my year-long wikibreak I created a macro that performed FP closures. Not an automatic bot, it was interactive and presented the user with a dozen menu-driven choices for which section of WP:FP etc to place the image in, whether it was created or just uploaded by the nominator, and let the closer enter one or more user IDs who could receive collateral credit messages on their talk page (for example, if they had edited the promoted version). It then did all the promotion work automatically, creating the image insertions and captions, updating the FP counts and notice pages, and leaving appropriate template messages on the talk pages of those involved. It would invisibly obtain a 'lock' on the FP candidate page (by adding a comment) as soon as the closer specified which nomination they wanted to work on so that even if two people were using it to close noms simultaneously, there could be no conflicts.

The format of the FP pages has changed since then, so it would need updating.. Anyone want me to do that? I remember at the time I used to perform 10-15 closures per day but the volume is lower now. Also, it would require the user to install Python if they were using Windows as I found that the pywikipediabot framework wouldn't compile using py2exe for Windows and I've no desire to reinvent that particular wheel.

Is it worth updating it? Procedures have probably changed and I don't know how long it takes to perform an FP promotion now. When I created the bot, it used to take 15 minutes for an experienced closer to perform a promotion manually, and about 3 minutes to complete a non-promoted closure. That was a long time when there 15 or so to do per day, and backlogs were common, which they aren't now. How long does it take now? And would the current closers want to use it? If so speak up, otherwise I'll let it rest in peace :-) ~ Veledan • T 21:27, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I've closed only a few noms, and it was unpleasantly cumbersome. So, if you feel up for it, I think many of us would appreciate your bot's assistance quite a lot, in fact there was an earlier discussion on this very page about making a new bot!Debivort 01:12, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
I'll look through the diffs of recent closers to see how much updating would be needed ~ Veledan • T 10:19, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
This should make things a bit easier. MER-C 11:22, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Just For Fun: FPC Scavenger Hunt

In the interest of attracting FPC nominations that depict a wide variety of subjects (including those that don't get nominated often enough), and also in the interest of having fun, I hereby establish the FPC Scavenger Hunt.

Until someone has a better idea, here's how it works:

(1) A person (for now, let's call this person the "Hunt Master") declares an image subject matter. I would say that the subject matter should be very broad: for example, "Barry Bonds" or "Honeybee" are too narrow a subject matter; "Baseball" or "Insects" would be a bit better; "Sports or Games" or "Animals" would be best of all.
(2) Anyone who cares to participate in the FPC Scavenger Hunt nominates one or more images for FPC status that have some rational relation to the current image subject matter. One person might nominate a scan of a historic baseball card; another a photograph of a historic deck of cards; another a self-made panorama of a notable stadium in Australia; another a scan of a Renaissance-era painting depicting tennis. Each such nomination should note, somewhere in the nomination, that it is a scavenger hunt entry.
(3) The nominator of the first nominated scavenger hunt entry that is duly promoted, and that relates to the then-current subject matter, is the winner of that round. The winner then enjoys the adulation of a grateful FPC community, and becomes the Hunt Master (replacing his/her predecessor) and gets to pick the next subject matter. The Hunt Master is not eligible to succeed himself/herself.
(4) If a suitable time period passes without any topical FPC nomination being promoted, or if the then-current Hunt Master fails to declare a new subject matter, then the first person who declares himself/herself the Hunt Master by making a post to that effect in Talk:FPC achieves that status.

The first person who posts a response to this and who expresses interest in being the Master (and who thereby declares the first subject matter) has the honor of being the first Master. Any suggestions for a first topic? (Some illustrative examples: Sports and games; postage stamps; crime; painted portraits; religious art; antiquities). (4) The (3) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spikebrennan (talk • contribs) 04:06, August 26, 2007 (UTC)

Haha great idea! My suggestion for a first topic is: MAGIC. Debivort 05:21, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Welcome to the Hunt. "MAGIC" it is, then, Master Debivort. (I had nominated this image back in July, but the image wasn't regarded as a sufficiently high-quality image. I'll see what else can be found-- maybe a circus or promotional poster, maybe an animation of a trick, maybe an engraving from a medieval mystical text...) Spikebrennan 10:38, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Great idea! Only caveat, we should probably try to avoid a rash of paintings being nominated... since the Yorck project gave Commons 10K high-res classical images it would be easy to find pics there to match many categories. My first instinct was to nominate two of my favourite paintings ever, Circe Invidiosa and Magic Circle by Waterhouse. But I'll resist, although that said I'll try to create and upload new versions anyway as I see now the ones already on Commons are extremely poor—you can't see the spirits in the smoke at all in the Magic Circle—and I have very good quality full size reproductions to hand, just no scanner big enough. ~ Veledan • T 17:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
If it's a big original, you can get good repro from a half-decent digital camera and a couple of lights. Let me know if you're keen enough and need any advice setting it up. mikaultalk 07:26, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Whereas I instead nominated my favourite Aerogel picture - science is magic in itself, sometimes =) Adam Cuerden talk 18:55, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Engravings

I've said this in reply to Veledan in an image discussion, but we should probably discuss it here.

Should we up the bar on engravings? If so, to what point?

Firstly, engravings should not be exempt from being the best possible scan. That means we should be able to make every line, except in very rare cases where the sheer size of the engraving prevents this being very practical. In cases where this isn't true, the image should be rejected out of hand: The engraving still exists; a better copy could be made, hence it's not the best possible image.

However, engravings are not inherently reproducible, as a modern photograph is. So, we ought to try and estimate what other illustrations there are of an event. A non-iconic engraving of, say, a Victorian production of The Taming of the Shrew, or of a not-otherwise-notable colliery explosion used to, say, illustrate Mine explosion (sadly, those seemed to have happened and been illustrated in the Illustrated London News at a rate of about one a year in the Victorian period) should be held to a higher standard than more important events with few illustrations.

Of course, engravings should not be privileged above other forms of art: if paintings and photographs of similar quality exist for a subject, the bar for the engraving goes back upwards.

I just don't want my enjoyment of Victorian research to have the perverse effect of meaning that most Victorian events are ineligible for ever getting an FP, because the only possible illustrations of them are being rejected without good cause. Adam Cuerden talk 19:14, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I will put some thoughts here for the sake of discussion, but I'm not really arguing anything in particular. I have actually opposed relatively few of what have mostly been your engraving noms, but neither have I supported. They are a rather hard thing to judge for mine. I mean the quality may be 'good', and some more than others have had good encyclopaedic value, but on the other hand, if I reduced a photograph to straight black and white (I mean just black and white, not grayscale), then there goes most concerns with things like noise, blur, etc. But would a photograph treated that way get promoted - highly unlikely. So it's hard to compare these things.
Now I have regularly seen photos opposed in the past with sometimes offensive comments about them being 'boring', or somewhat less offensive comments about them having 'no wow factor'. Now to be entirely honest, not a single one of the nominated engravings that I've seen in the last couple of months has had a 'wow factor' for me. I have not opposed any for that reason (in fact I don't think I've ever opposed anything for that), but have not noticed anyone else opposing for that reason either. I wonder why?
What I have noticed is that with only very few exceptions these noms are attracting very few votes - either support or oppose. Now that could be saying a few things. Perhaps it means that people don't know how to judge them (as I've mentioned above). Perhaps it means people aren't even bothering to look at them, which would then beg the question about their 'wow factor'. Perhaps it means something else.
I'd like to know your thoughts on the lack of votes issue, as it hasn't seemed to deter you nominating them. Would also like to hear other people's thoughts on the general engravings issue. --jjron 08:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Not enough original photos

There seems to be a trend towards more and more historical or otherwise third party photos, and very few by Wikipedians. And those few originals rarely seem to get promoted. This is a bit disappointing. Anyone think we should do something about this? Stevage 04:31, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Um... the two possible ways of increasing the proportion of FPC candidates that are original photos are: (1) nominate more original photos, and (2) nominate fewer historical/third party photos. I'm all for (1), and against (2). Spikebrennan 16:35, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Spike, while true, your suggestion doesn't really get to the heart of why original noms have been dying off, or how we can fix it. This to me boils down to - 1) relax the criteria for original photos, 2) accept that there will be fewer of them, or 3) make a specific appeal for original images. I'd favor the latter and could certainly help if I wasn't in the midst of writing my thesis. Debivort 17:59, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
What about adding something along the lines of the Commons' Quality Images programme, to celebrate good, useful original photos that aren't quite FP? Adam Cuerden talk 18:45, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Well that's not a surprise. The current trend about FPC is to bash every picture on technical grounds. A lot of voters will oppose anything that has not the clean look of a picture with a digital reflex. I have a medium format picture of a steam locomotive under pressure with smoke and vapor (You know it's the kind of subject you can meet everyday at the corner of your street) that is ultra-sharp but show some grain texture at full res. I don't even try to upload and submit this picture I already know what will be the comment "its a bit noisy and not that sharp at full rez" no matter if this will be unoticeable printed on full magazine page. I will also not try to get featured with this one Media:Col de Braus-small.jpg there is grain like ping-pong balls (no surprise I deliberately under-exposed to avoid motion blur), however I think its the most interesting image on the road article. As the trend is to favor large images it seems that if you don't have a Canon 5D you're dead.
Another problem is that voters ask for some very conventional pictures. I have made an attempt at at FPC with this one Media:Mole Antonelliana - Color Small.jpg that is razor sharp and free of grain. Well, people want a "Normal view" Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Mole Antonelliana. You'd better leave your creativity outside of Wikipedia. They even removed the picture from the article. Please look at the photography that is now on the Mole Antonelliana page. Well, it looks normal...
Well I prefer to stop here...
Aside of this there was a lot of interesting photographies that were de-featured. You you look to the archive youll see that most of them were defeatured because they were to small or had JPEG artifacts. Nobody had the idea to contact the uploader to ask for a larger version or less compressed... There's the underliyng idea that newer technology will bring better images.
Ok at this point you may think that I'm anal retentive, I have infatuated ego and I believe any grainy and poorly focused Shot I have made is a masterpiece of art. Well seriously, look at Wikipedia:Featured pictures/Plants well digital pictures sharp and grainless. But how many pictures with a flower right in the middle ?
Again I prefer to stop here...
What else ? Even outside FPC its not very rewarding to upload a picture on Wikipedia. I recently noticed that there was no picture on the Carla Bley article, thus I uploaded this one. I have no better picture probably not a masterpiece but not a bad picture. Not a portrait, black and white a bit grainy (however I'm still expecting to see what kind of result the guys shooting flowers in brigth sun would get when they shot handheld a 1/8s). And yes, Carla Bley is in the background, however it is very representative of how she is on stage often closing her eyes with her head up. I was stupidly expecting that someone will wrote "Hi Eric thanks for illustrating the Carla Bley article". See on Talk:Carla Bley what I get as a comment. Excuse be but my answer was a bit disruptive.
Well I thing I'm a bit masochistic in uploading original pictures on Wikipedia. Do you think buying Canon 5D and shooting flowers in full auto mode will a be good cure ? Ericd 19:40, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
well said Ericd. people's taste is different. I don't care about how people are judging photos. its often more than ridiculous... re images the wiki isn't much different than ordinary photo community sites. personal annotation re high resolution photos: as long as the (on wiki, no matter what language) available license allows a commercial use I'll never ever provide a high res photo. don't like to do the work while others make profit out of it. just my 2c. --Michl 07:50, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, Michl I forgot this requiring high res is the best way to have no photography uploaded by a pro or the semi-pro. Ericd 11:57, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


Michl "wiki isn't much different than ordinary photo community sites" I can't help thinking to a famous photo community were when you post a sunset photography when you'll get a 4 for aesthetic you inevitably get a note between 3.5 and 4.5 for originality lol ! ~~
To be fair, that photo - while very illustrative - was rather misplaced in an infobox confining it to 220 px. I've rearranged the page a little bit, so the photo can shine, and put a crop of it in the infobox. I did trim it a little bit on the left, but that was just to allow the main parts of the image to be a bit bigger. Adam Cuerden talk 07:56, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
There's at least one more option: Have separate pages for original and non-original content. Then it would be clear how few original images are being submitted, and would perhaps encourage people to submit more. Whereas currently, you're effectively trying to compete against a massive collection of third party images. Stevage 04:27, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
It's significant that the proportion of user-originated Commons FPs is higher, where there's no need to suit the criteria and constraints demanded by the encyclopedia. WP:FPs aren't great images first and foremost, they're great encyclopedic images. Unless you just happen to get lucky, shooting specifically for that criterion is very difficult; it's more like assignment photography and anyone prepared to spend the time, money and effort required to produce not only enc images, but FP-qualty enc images, probably should be doing it for a living, if they're not already. Which is where Michl's comment comes in, along with the copyright issues associated with it. I think we do alright here, when you consider all that. Lowering the bar just to get more user-FPs is an entirely self-defeating exercise. mikaultalk 08:56, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
"Have separate pages for original and non-original content": No, that would annoy the closer(s?). MER-C 11:30, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Really? How so? I'm not convinced. Why is it more work to close on two different pages than on one? How much more work? Are you sure it isn't worth it? Sounds like an excuse to me. Stevage 13:16, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

We just need more decent featured picture candidacies, period. I don't particularly care what they are, whether they're original pictures, historical engravings or stuff scraped off COM:FPC. I feel a little underemployed. MER-C 11:30, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

lol - you know that really is an open invitation.... :) --Fir0002 11:55, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I was thinking to nominate this one Media:Clash 21051980 12 800.jpg after removing a few dust spots. Do you think it will lower the level of FP ? Ericd 12:19, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
You'll probably get complaints about size, so I'd either upload a slightly bigger version, (1000px on at least one side) or just pre-empt the complaints with a good justification for why the size should be ignored. It's a very good image otherwise, so go for it. Adam Cuerden talk 12:40, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't know if there's a larger version. It is not one of my picture. But why nobody nominates this kind of pictures ? Ericd 14:05, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Mick I've its not the first time that I read that the problem is how high the bar should be. The question IMO is there only one bar ? I agree that Wikipedia is not an art gallery and some of the recent trend in fine art photography will have very few encyclopedic value (although a more representative Lomography would be welcome for the Lomography article.
For instance let's see the Tomato article :
We have Fir0002 FP. Technically perfect, and I know its difficult to make that kind of image. Should Fir0002 be featured for this. Of course ! And one the best reason to feature this kind of pics is that I find so boring to make such an image myself that I will do this only for money.
On the other hand what are we looking at : a tomato, a round and red tomato... a very normal tomato... a standard tomato... just the kind of tomato we find at the local grocery store in any developed country.
So why is this picture featured ? Encyclopedic value ? Bullshit ! Information value is near zero, it is just the tomato we have seen thousand times. So why is it featured ? Because the work of Fir0002 and aesthetic value of the picture is recognized.
On the other hand we have Media:Raf Tomatoes.jpg. A pretty picture, everyone who knows how to use a camera and a certain sense of composition could get that kind of shot at the marketplace. However it has more information content it show that there is different kind of tomatoes. I doubt this picture will be nominated on FPC and if it was I doubt it will turn on the voters. On the other hand if feature such picture it will be in no way an insult to good photography.
But also have this picture Media:Heirloom tomatoes.jpg, a very interesting picture that shows that there is also yellow and brown tomatoes. But well... I don't want to hurt the photographer.
So what ?
My current reflexion is not especially about the FP or the PPC or the FP criteria. Is more generally about the average level of photography in Wikipedia. Since a long time I have a confuse feeling that something doesn't work but know I begin to see clearly. What kind of relation has the average level of Wikipedia photograph with the FP ?
IMO FP should be useful to Wikipedia. If the purpose is only to be a club for a small elite photographers as long as I have a FP, I'am happy to be a member of the club and we close the discussion. FP should IMO help rise the level the of photography of Wikipedia. And as it is yet it just fail IMO. I'm not sure rising the level of FP will rise the average level of photography in Wikipedia nor that lowering it will lower the average level.
Just to illustrate the current level have a look Broadway (New York City) how many people carrying a camera have walked this avenue in one year ?
Ericd 14:05, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I hear what you're saying Eric, but I guess I see things from a more long-term perspective, and I see WP:FP as almost a separate thing to the body of images that make up the encyclopedia. Just like the way the rest of the encyclopedia evolves, there's a need to weed out older, weaker material as and when better stuff becomes available. It's usually circumstantial: as/when new shots come up, or when you get to an article and think to yourself, "whoa,I've seen/have got/can get a much better shot than that" and you upload it. Just like the encyclopedia, no-one really writes an article with the express purpose it becoming a Featured Article; the bar is way high for that to be a common aim, and rightly so. But it doesn't stop people making a big effort to get it as good as they possibly can.

How often do contributors look at their work and think, "wow, this is so good I'll nominate it!" – speaking for myself, that's hardly ever. I've never put any of mine up for FP (yet...) just because they're either too small or not super-enc or whatever. Of course WP:FP looks elitist – it is! – but it only favours individual editors if they happen to turn out top quality shots on a regular basis. Individual images are what count: we actively promote an elite group of images, not photographers!

Really, the only way you raise the level of wikipedia photography is to encourage and inspire others to contribute more and better work. The best way to do that is promoting the FP and Quality Image process at Commons, as a direct incentive to have your work "featured" if it is technically/aesthetically sound. Stuff uploaded there can then be considered here for encyclopedic value afterwards. You don't achieve higher quality by lowering the bar anywhere – how on earth will that increase standards? WP:FP (and WP:FA, and just about anything on the main page) serves to promote the encyclopedia, period. It's not a reservoir of images (that's what Commons is for) and it absolutely must demonstrate only the very best that we have on offer. mikaultalk 16:21, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Well Mick we raised several question that are worth to be developped. However I have to go to Spain for a few days. Thus I will stop this discussion for a few days. I'm still not sure there is one standard were the bar could be raised or lowered. Some discussions on FPC give me the same feeling that a group of classical music critics reviewing an album of the MC5. I'm still not conviced that any photography could be evaluated by the same standards. I know why there so much FP of airplaines, it's because the US Air Force is gently feeding us with ton of free pictures.... But sticking on pictures by Wikipedians, why so much photography or animals plants fruits or flowers and so few people photography ? I agree there may be some problem with people photography. I agree also that every or animals plants fruits or flowers that has a article should have a photo. But currently there's 3 FP of people by Wikipedians. I'm not satisfied by the arguments that the only talented photographer in Wikipedia are those that shot animals, plants, flower or panorama, I suspect there is some systemic bias in the FP process or that we are stuck in some kind of Groupthink. The worse is that every time I think to a subject that has no FP I find some picture that could be worth a FPC nomination for instance I was thinking to car accidents see media:Japanese car accident.jpg. I stop here I must go to sleep. Ericd 20:14, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Frankly, because food, insects, some larger animals, and flowers are relatively easy to photograph, given a sufficiently good camera, and, since we have articles on them, undoubtably encyclopædic. However, people are relatively hard to photograph when not posed, since they will move around. And posed photos are boring. Adam Cuerden talk 22:52, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, you are right, Adam. Insects, flowers and food very easy to photograpg even with point and shot cameras. How many dragonflies , bees and flies we should feature? Yes, they are sharp, yes they are different kind. So what? They all look alike. I wonder while most voters look only at image quality, but never look at image value. In my opinion encyclopedia viewers and readers cannot care less about quality, they do care about seeing more different and interesting images at the main page. In my opinion Wikipedia:Featured picture criteria should be changed and number 5th criteria should become number first.--Mbz1 00:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)Mbz1
I cannot agree with you,Ericd with your assement of tomato. You say: "So why is this picture featured ? Encyclopedic value ? Bullshit ! Information value is near zero, it is just the tomato we have seen thousand times.", You are right and because you are right this picture never ever should have been featured. It has no encyclopedic value. Wikipedia:Featured picture criteria states: "It illustrates the subject in a compelling way, making the viewer want to know more". How this picture would make anybody want to know more about tomatos. I'll be ashamed even to nominate something like this.--Mbz1 01:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)Mbz1
Huh, how are food and insects "relatively easy to photograph"? Food is hard, because you have to physically build the scene, arranging things in a nice way. I tried, I sucked. Macro photography isn't particularly easy either, as the DOF is so small. We should be encouraging more high quality photos of insects and food, not discouraging it. I would be delighted with an FP of each of 1000 different insects, not annoyed that there were too many insect FPs or something. Stevage 01:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Weel, this is compared to other subjects: While they have to be artistically arranged, and preparation has to be made, if you do the preparations right and the camera is good enough, you can probably get the photo in time. Also, there doesn't seem to be that much worry in FP as to the exact angle the insect is photographed from, as most angles seem equally informative to non-entomologist eyes. However, it can be very hard to get to an appropriate location to photograph a building without other buildings getting in the way, and larger animals often have the problem of either having to take photographs in zoos (often artificial environments) or having to deal with their natural isolation - most non-domestic animals will actively avoid humans, whereas many insects will allow a human relatively close. Meanwhile, humans have that horrible tendency to look like idiots when photographed candidly.
I'm not saying that food and insects are easy, but there are additional considerations with other images that make them somewhat more difficult, adding much more luck or need of cooperation from the subjects into the mix. Adam Cuerden talk 10:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Actually I find that humans have a tendency to look like idiots when photographed posed too. At least humans are looking like idiots in their natural state when photographed candidly! As for difficulty in photographing buildings, some buildings are probably just destined never to have a FP quality image taken of them due to physical constraints. If the only view you have of a building is looking up at a sharp angle from just in front of it, it will always be too distorted to be particularly encyclopaedic, unless all you want to see is a particular feature of it. If you're crafty with your distortion correction you can fix it though (a case in point is a mosaic of the Trevi Fountain in Rome which was heavily distortion corrected - too bad the lighting was quite awful that day). Anyway, it is inevitable that some subjects will be far easier to produce an FP standard image of, but thats life. Diliff | (Talk) (Contribs) 10:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
To take a slightly different tack, I'll just make a couple of comments, make of them what you will. FPC voters can be pretty rough and ready with their comments on photos. I feel this discourages a lot of people from nominating their own images, fearing not just that they may fail to be promoted, but that they may have scorn heaped upon them in the process. Now, having nominated both my own images and other peoples images, I can say from a personal perspective that you have a lot more invested, and take comments far more personally, when it's your own image. To be honest, for this reason I only oppose a 'by Wikipedian' photo/image, and especially a self-nom, when I find it to be really quite poor. On the other hand I'm not that fussed about opposing 'third party' images (oh gee, another NASA or US Army picture). What can we do about that? It sounds a bit soppy, but perhaps voters could take note of nominations and try to be nicer in general. You don't have to support, but you can be considerate. And to think that not that long ago the argument came up that self-noms should be banned.
What also annoys me (as some have alluded to above) is the continual carping about size. Yes Diliff has set a very high standard for panos and architectural photos, but I don't think other such images should be opposed (as they regularly are) because they're not as big and detailed as his. If it's a reasonably sized photo I see no problem, provided it covers the other criteria. On the flip side of this is the continual sniping mainly directed at Fir0002 for uploading downsampled images at 'only' 1600px. I see no problem with this (in fact I prefer it - I don't want to be downloading 10MB images), and he has justified this countless times. So why is it continually brought up, and why do other contributors feel the need to upload images at twice the resolution and absurd file sizes, only to find themselves opposed for minor noise, or slight unsharpness, or some other minutae? The irony of course here is that the non-Wikipedian 'historic' images are specifically exempted from this size criteria, and seemingly several other criteria. Any wonder there's a undersupply of original photos and people willing to put them up.
Now, just one final thought that I've mentioned before (and everyone's welcome to disagree again). I personally think Wikipedia FP should be only - and I do mean only - for images that have been created and contributed by Wikipedians. This is not NASA FP, or the Louvre FP, or the US Army FP, or Flickr FP, or... Now I'm not saying these other images aren't often hugely valuable to Wikipedia, but they're not exclusive to Wikipedia. If FP was only for images created by Wikipedians, then I think we'd see a very different story. --jjron 09:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Good points Jjron (and stop making little changes here and there, every time I think you're done editing, you make another change and I get an edit conflict!!!), but panos are very easy to make high res as long as they're not excessively downsampled (I often reduce width or height to half of the original and still have plenty of res to play with). I have to say I don't agree at all with Mbz1. Not everyone has seen a tomato a thousand times. Not everyone has seen a pristine tomato. In fact, its possible that nobody has ever seen a tomato not cut up in a sandwich! We shouldn't make assumptions about what is mundane and uninteresting and what is not. People wouldn't be reading the article on tomatoes if they thought tomatoes were boring. The fact is, if the photo is of high technical standard and illustrates the article well, it should be a candidate for FP. I also agree with Stevage in that food and insects are not at all easy to photograph well from my experience too. People will naturally photograph the things that they have available to them. If its exclusively food and insects, so be it - so much the better. I'm rather limited in that regard, living in London where the food is crap and expensive, and the bugs don't survive long in the concrete jungle! ;-) I do have access to quite pretty architecture and cityscapes, however, and from time to time I contribute such images to wiki. I don't think anyone should be chastised for contributing images of what could be considered boring subjects, as long as they make an effort to present the subject well. Diliff | (Talk) (Contribs) 09:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Let me put it this way, Diliff: If you coul find the one, who's never seen "pristine tomato", surely that one has never seen the Internet either and I'm afraid fir0002 image will not be any help to him.I'm not sure I understood what you meant under "In fact, its possible that nobody has ever seen a tomato not cut up in a sandwich!", but that's OK. It is probably my English just not good enough to understand your thought.
Jjron, I cannot agree with you that only Wikipedians pictures could be featured. FP pictures are not for Wikipedians, they are for readers and viewers of Wikipedia and I believe we should remember about them.--Mbz1 14:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)Mbz1
Yes, you're right about FPs being for readers, couldn't agree more. "Exclusive shots" is a non-starter, as most licenses are free or non-exclusive anyway. However the tomato issue cuts to the core of the enc issue. It's like a systemic bias thing: the fact that you "know" tomatoes and you assume the rest of the world does too, is 100% irrelevant. You simply can't assume that anything is "too common" to be worthy of illustration. An encyclopedia attempts to illustrate everything, no matter how mundane, and aims to do so as descriptively as possible. That's the hard part.

In some respects I'd agree with you, the more interesting a shot of a mundane subject the better. So a variety of tomatoes is more enc than one on its own. But a technically outstanding photo makes for more interesting viewing, lifting it out of the mundane, and beats the technically-poor-but-interesting candidate every time, mainly because it's more descriptive. This is why the more "creative" or abstract shots always get rejected, and why shots like the tomato are so hard to achieve. The housebrick that someone nominated recently was case in point. In fact I thought it was a wp:point nomination, making the same point that you are, ie, it was shot of a common brick. You couldn't fault it technically, so why wasn't it promoted? Not because it was boring or mundane, but because it wasn't descriptive enough (you could only see one side, as I recall) I have to say, I support that decision as I support the criteria behind it and the contributors who provide illustrations that fit them. mikaultalk 18:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Mbz1 I'd be interested to hear your opinion on the actual issue posed by Stevage, i.e., what can be done about the lack of original photos. As best I can tell your only contributions to the discussion here are to argue, to go on and on again about your own personal bugbears, and to take swipes at most of the people that actually do make original contributions. Or perhaps you think it's not an issue at all. --jjron 09:45, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Couldn't agree with you more jjron! I'm personally very proud of the English Encyclopedia's FP's and the standard we keep here. I mean it was either last week or maybe the week before I had a look at the FPC pages in other languages. And our FP collection IMO is by far the best. IMO we're doing pretty much everything right at the moment (excluding engraving noms! :) - we're picking out high enc and high quality images and that shouldn't change. To use a loose analogy - do you think Featured Articles should become filled with poorly written articles on obscure and "rare" aspects of Southern Swaziland? With regards to my tomato FP and boredom, Wikipedia is not an amusement park with exciting rollercoaster rides. It's an encyclopaedia. Sure wow factor is terrific and desirable, but if an image has high technical quality and high illustrative quality it's an FP in my mind. And I would also like to point out that taking images on a white background is by no means a simple task. And neither is macro photography. It is all too easy to criticize FP as being too full of a particular contributor's forte (insects, buildings etc) but it is much harder to go out there and take the shots. For example I think it would be terrific if Mdf decided to nominate more of his excellent bird shots and the FP galleries started filling with these. As far as I'm concerned, if there are "too many insect FP's by Fir0002" it's only because everyone else isn't pulling their weight in other categories! Our primary goal needs to be in finding those pictures which compliment what is written in the article (by giving a neutral and typical visual as to what the article is writing about) and have good image quality. --Fir0002 10:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Also agree with you Fir0002. I can only think of about a dozen or half dozen members here who have consistently uploaded FP quality images. That means that in the english speaking world of perhaps a billion and a half people (OK, including India - at least 400 million excluding India), this is all we've got to show for it. Obviously talented photographers are quite loathe to give for free what they usually earn their crust on, and that reduces the available talent pool significantly, but surely there are plenty more potential contributors out there who could give all of us a run for our money. I'd be delighted to see it happen. Until it happens though, I think its counterproductive to single out contributors that have found their 'niche' on FPC. ;-) Diliff | (Talk) (Contribs) 12:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, jjron, if you are really interested in my opinion, here it is: I strongly believe that minor quality problems should not prevent the picture to become FP, I strongly believe that Encyclopedic value of the picture should prevail over everything else , when the picture is voted for, I strongly believe that people, who have no idea of the subject and never seen it in a real life (and never even seen pictures of this before) should not oppose the pictures because they have no idea what they are talking about, like, for example happend with my Mercury transit picture, or with my fogbow picture. I strongly believe that, when Diliff told me that, if I'm to take an image of an alien in an alien ship, but it would not be perfect, he would oppose it, he was dead wrong. I strongly believe that Wikipedia readers and viewers do not care about image quality nearly as much as ones, who votes here. I could give you few proves of that. For example, my Greenland icebergs picture, that got "sadly opposd" here is now all over the Internet. Few days ago I was contacted by a magazine editor to ask permission to use one of my pictures. The picture they asked for was a digital picture of my old film picture(I have no scanner, so I just take a picture of a picture).Of course the quality of this picture was very bad, so I offered the editor of the magazine to send him the negative. He was more than surprised, he e-mailed back to me that quality is just fine for publishing the image. I even cannot imagine what opposes I'd get, if I were silly enough to nominate the picture to become FP. Few of my pictures were nominated not by me, but by somebody else. Of course they got opposed here, but to me it is one more prove that readers care much more about interesting pictures with interesting subject than about quality. Let's take one more example from my pictures - insects in amber. Once again an interesting image got opposed. I do not have a macro lens, I believe fir0002 does. I have amber with insects while fir0002 does not. Maybe fir0002 could have taken better picture, but he does not have that amber. So what to do? Should not I take picture of insect in amber at all? Should not I nominate the picture on FP? Remeber that a picture could always get delisted, if a better one for the subject will became available later. I believe that samples I provided about my pictures could apply to many original nominated pictures, and I believe that many people (like me, for example) are relucant to go throug the process ever again after their pictures got unfairly(in my opinion) opposed. If it were not the case, I'm sure we would have had many more original images.--Mbz1 13:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)Mbz1
Thank you for offering an opinion. I think that many people would agree with at least some of your points. For example your point about images being harshly treated discouraging you from nominating in future is similar to my first point, and addresses the issue that has been raised. I actually think some of your images have been very good and highly valuable to Wikipedia, but have usually been opposed on technical reasons. You are right that most users don't care about image quality as much as voters here do, but that's a large part of the aim of FP - that hopefully the voters here do subject the pictures to far closer scrutiny than a regular user would in order to pick out the very best on a number of criteria. It's not a perfect process, but it does have some merit. The current consensus criteria are basically high encyclopaedic value (your key concern) and high quality on technical grounds. A one person crusade by you to remove the technical concerns criteria is unlikely to work, just as me conducting a one person crusade to only promote Wikipedian created images is unlikely to work. I think what has got you offside with a lot of others here has been ignoring these consensus rules in favour of your own version of them, as well trying to decide for everyone else what is and isn't encyclopaedic. Targetting certain other users doesn't help either. Remember that despite his huge number of FPs, your primary target Fir0002 has probably had more photos fail in the FPC ring than most of us have ever even uploaded to Wikipedia (I think there were two of his last week alone that were nominated by other users that were roundly rejected). I say kudos to him for continuing to contribute despite this, and despite being regularly targetted by other users for his successes (you are not the first to do so). I'd encourage you to continue to contribute your pictures to Wikipedia and to nominate here when you think one meets the criteria. And try not to take it too personally if they don't get promoted (I know from my own experience that can be easier said than done). But you've said yourself several times on your nominations that you're more interested in getting the subject depicted noticed publicly than getting the photo to be an FP anyway. So good luck. --jjron 16:37, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

As I was reading this discussion earlier, I assumed that the reason I disagreed with you on FPC candicates, Mbz1, was that you and I must have a different idea of what FPC is for. But I agree with you that FPC is for the readers of the encyclopedia, not the the takers or nominators of images. To me, because it is for the readers, FPC should be restriced to the very best images, so that when readers browse through WP:FP every single image is breathtaking in its own unique way. You say above "Should not I take picture of insect in amber at all?" my answer is OF COURSE you should take a picture of an insect in amber, and you should upload it to the encyclopedia. Image:Ant_in_amber_close_up.jpg makes a huge contribution to the article amber. But just because an image is useful for the encylopedia does not mean that it should be a featured picture. Featured pictures should be a very small fraction of the total images in the encyclopedia. Every image used in the encyclopedia should contribute to the article it is used in, but only those images that contribute enormously to the article and are technically better than most of the rest of the images on the encyclopedia should be featured pictures. Enuja (talk) 16:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi,Jjron. I'm bacicly agree with almost everything you said except that I'm targeting anybody for his/her successes. Please believe me I do not targeting anybody for their successes. I do not target a photographer, I target a picture. I supported fir0002 picture of a fly few days ago and I would support his picture of the same mating flies, if it gets nominated.Yet I believe that, if in my opinion a picture has no encyclopedic value,I could share my opinion with others without fearing PA for doing this. After all it is my own opinion, which counts only for one vote and evrybody else could disagree with it, yet after recent PA on me for my votes I'm afraid to vote.
Enuja, I kind of believe that my Mercury transit, my fogbow, my insects in amber did contribut to the articles enormously. Some of my pictures are the only pictures in important articles. In my opinion(and please notice it is only my opinion), some or all of them should have been featured, without looking at quality problems under microscope. I know you and most others are disagree with me and I respect your opinion, while still having my own. Some pictures that I'm taking have the quality as best as they could be with such subjects. For example, here's the story about my very first nomination. I nominated the image of sunset mirage and of course got opposed by everybody. Then I chalanged the voters to find a better image of the subject anywhere on the NET. Pengo excepted my offer and in few days came up with the better image taken by the same camera. He missed that the image was taken not only by the same camera, but by the same photographer, and because I was the one, who took both pictures, I just knew which one was better. The one that Pengo found could have a little bit better quality, but the mirage was not nearly as complex and interesting as the one that was nominated.Pengo's find probably would have been funny, if it was not so sad.I'd like to add that in my opinion, if we're voting for the pictures of common insects, common flowers, common food items, common buildings, yes the quality of the image should get a priority, but if we are voting for more or less rare shots available in only one editions, the value of the image should be much more important than an image quality. I just got to flickr and looked up images of mating flies (please notice not any flies, but mating flies). Here's the result of my search. I found 2,089 photos. Then I looked up for insect in amber. I found 107 photos. I looked up for Colosseum ("Coliseum"), Rome and I found 1,195 photos. Then I looked up for images of icebergs at Cape York and I did not find any image at all. I believe these search results speak for themselfs. --Mbz1 17:18, 30 August 2007 (UTC)Mbz1
Yes your vote is only one opinion, but it still has to be made under the set of criteria for evaluating FPC candidates to become a valid vote. But I'm glad you linked that Flickr search (although it was keyword biased - I put in hoverflies mating and got only 39 and put in "iceberg" and got 24,704) because I found no fewer than two bastards had stolen my photo [14] [15] and claimed it as their own. This has really shaken my faith in how my images get used! :( I wonder how many others have been stolen...
My vote is made under the set of criteria from Wikipedia:Featured picture criteria. I could tell you what criterias I'm using for my vote:
"It illustrates the subject in a compelling way, making the viewer want to know more".
"A featured picture is not always required to be aesthetically pleasing; it might be shocking, impressive, or just highly informative."
"An image's encyclopedic value is given priority over its artistic value."
.I hope that we all agree that the nominated image should have strong encyclopedic value and I hope that I'm allowed to have my own opinion about the encyclopedic value of the image.
Btw, If you wanted to look for any icebergs (not only Cape York), I'd say you at least should have included words "icbergs, glaciers and helicoctper" because the picture I'm talking about really is the picture of many icebergs braking off many glaciers and that's why it is important picture in my opinion. I'm glad my search helped you to find out that somebody stealing your pictures.--Mbz1 23:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)Mbz1
I wasn't going to say anything, have just been following the discussion. I would note though that this comment: "And our FP collection IMO is by far the best. IMO we're doing pretty much everything right at the moment" demonstrates the appalling holier-than-thou attitude that does much to deter new users and contributors around WP:FP. I know after dealing with this area twice, I would never nominate any picture, my own or someone else's. Just my two cents, take it as you will. (Note: My comment was not meant as an attack or jab at Fir, but simply to demonstrate how one individual, outside of FP, perceived things here.) IvoShandor 04:35, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia NC License

Well if you looked up in the previous section you'll see that again I've found people claiming that my images are theirs. This is extremely discouraging ... and well shocking for altruistic photographers. I think this is as good a time as any to see what interest there is from FPC regulars to introduce a stricter NC license for photos uploaded to wikipedia. After we get a little interest here we can take it over to the powers that be. --Fir0002 22:09, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd happily support additional license options. I might still license under GFDL, but as far as I am concerned, the more options the better. Debivort 22:15, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
NC is not going to happen. It has been discussed numerous times (on the mailinglists at least). check this out :-). --Dschwen 22:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
If somebody wants to steal somebody picture, the change in licence will not prevent them from doing this. Please notice publishing other people pictures under your name is not supported by Wikipedia licence, but I believe there always would be somebody, who will do it no matter what licence the image has.--Mbz1 23:34, 30 August 2007 (UTC)Mbz1
You can dual license under GFDL and cc-by-(sa)-nc. The GFDL requires a copy of the license to be published with the photo (see the image Dschwen links to). Commons licensing policy allows this arrangement as "[y]ou can offer as many licenses for a file as you want as long as at least one of them meets the criteria for free licenses above. For example, files under a "non-commercial" license are OK only if they are at the same time also released under a free license that allows commercial use.". That's probably as close as you can get to true non-com. MER-C 09:36, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Then again, you'll still have this problem. MER-C 09:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
There is also the problem that not all commons admins understand that policy. On more than one occasion images dual licensed GFDL/CC-BY-NC have been deleted as non-commercial by admins who didn't understand their own policies. 76.225.157.167 09:49, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Well I feel quite strongly that Wikipedia should give contributors the option to only allow usage for non com (educational etc) purposes - it is after all an encyclopedia and not a stock site (as I've said elsewhere). No one would care if Wikimedia used them - that's a pretty lame excuse to retain commercial licenses if you ask me. I think the best way will be to contact a few contributors who I think the same on this issue and then take it somewhere - but where? --Fir0002 12:31, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I absolutely agree, I even got in trouble on commons because I specified my attribution had to be 50% of the picture. Anyway, GFDL is pretty good as an NC license, Fir. I mean, if someone wants to print an educational book then they stick the three page license in the begining and thats fine but for advertising, the license is huge. It would be tough for and advertising firm to hide the entire license on valuable magazine space. I doubt that the wikimedia foundation would suddenly split from their policy of total GFDL compatablity. As to what those people on flickr are doing... they are simpily whores. I find it hard to shake a feeling of hate for people who steel donations. That said, I'm not sure how much a NC license would discourage them. Hell, they break GFDL why no CC -by- NC. -Fcb981(talk:contribs) 00:03, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Flickr Image Abuse

Attention everyone!!
Well I've got some rather disturbing news - acting on finding the abuse of my hoverflies image I searched from my crepuscular ray sunset image (which if you remember got misused not long ago) and sure enough I got [16] on the first page of the search. Turns out this guy has been mass uploading [17] WP:FP's. I would like to urge everyone to try a few searches on flickr to check for image abuse and report it [18]. I'd appreciate info from anyone regarding abuse of my images too. I'm off to do some more searches... --Fir0002 06:08, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

How do you contact flickr users? I'd start with assuming good faith, at least he doesn't claim he shot the pics (credits to WPI, whatever that means). My guess is this guy is just not clear about the licensing terms. Well there is a german saying: If you can read you have a clear advantage... ;-) --Dschwen 07:05, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Anyone with a flickr account can send messages using the link below the user's profile. He does seem to attempt to credit Wikipedia, unlike many others, so I'm certainly willing to believe he'll respond to a simple message. I could send him one, but I'm not confident in my ability to strike the right balance between polite and firm. I'm sure many of you out there can do a better job than I would. Raven4x4x 08:33, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Sigh.. its a sad fact of the matter that anything good that we upload to Wiki is fodder for theft. I can't keep up with it either. Every now and then a friend sends me a message to tell me they've spotted a photo of mine elsewhere. Given that there is no simple way to search for examples where the original filename has been replaced, it is virtually impossible to catch except by chance. Diliff | (Talk) (Contribs) 08:40, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
This type of thing happens constantly on the Internet, it's mostly harmless but has the potential to be a serious violation of author rights, especially when users here so, altruistically, as Fir put it, donate their images under the guise that they will only be reused a certain way. Let's face it, if you license an image under GFDL it is highly unlikely that it will be reused commercially because of the license requirements, but outright theft is always going to be a problem. In the case of a Flickr user, I doubt they aim to make any profit off it (though possible I suppose), our major concerns should be focused on when high profile images are used by companies and other commercial or governmental enterprises to make a profit or further an agenda without proper attribution and/or licensing. This, in my opinion, is a much bigger concern when compared to the illegal use of an image by some random copyright violator on Flickr who is probably just showing his images to some friends and lying about where he has been and what he has seen. My two cents. IvoShandor 08:53, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Even major companies do use these images without concern for licencing requirements. My images have been used by event organisers here in London, Apple Inc, the University of London, and numerous other smaller companies, and thats just in the last 6 months. Obviously if I had only uploaded them to stock photography libraries then they would be far better protected, but thats not the point, I suppose. Perhaps I need to be extremely clear in the image description just what the terms of the licence are. When I first started contributing to Wikipedia, my commercial interests were limited, but as I have started to make some money on the side, I have become slightly more millitant about my photos being used for profit without my permission. Of course I will still gladly contribute them for non-profit but this is seemingly at odds with Wiki policy... Diliff | (Talk) (Contribs) 09:37, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Seriously-- they're violating your license by using your image without crediting you. (I am changing law firms at the moment but I will send you updated contact information after I move so that if you want me to take action on your behalf, I can do so.) Spikebrennan 16:04, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Diliff: That's the big issue, I agree. No amount of licensing will deter or even stop outright theft (I think someone brought this up). If someone is willing to violate copyright (commercial or not) there is little that can be done to stop them if you don't know about it. IvoShandor 17:17, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
It would probably also help if WP and Commons were clearer about what image use policy was, maybe in the licensing template because I think a lot of people see "free" and assume there is no copyright.IvoShandor 17:20, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Abuse List (please add)

[19] - seems to have one of Aka's lightning shots as well; probably worth going through his collection —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fir0002 (talk • contribs) 06:17, 31 August 2007 (UTC) [20] --Fir0002 06:33, 31 August 2007 (UTC) [21] --Fir0002 06:33, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

The same image, this time on youtube: [22] Mgiganteus1 16:21, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
OMG TheHill88 stole your pic!! She's probably the most famous Aussie on Youtube. At least you'd have the advantage of living in the same country as her so you can track her down. And she's kinda hot too. :-) Diliff | (Talk) (Contribs) 16:45, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Diliff, did you let your younger brother hack your account... This is the most exited I've heard you. you were down right subdued when Apple stole your Colosseum "pic" : ). And I thought you were too classy for Youtube, I dont feel so guilty for surfing it anymore. -Fcb981(talk:contribs) 02:53, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I totally empathize with how much this sucks, but I suppose your best bet may be learning how to properly send out a DMCA notice. That people are stealing your photographs has nothing to do with the license you released it under; even if you had said "All rights reserved" the photograph would be stolen just the same. So keep up the good work in contributing to the body of available Free content, and deal harshly with those who would steal. --Cyde Weys 00:09, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

DMCA is a law of the United States, so it doesn't really apply to an Australian (like Fir0002) complaining about the conduct of another Australian. But I would assume that Australian copyright law is in broad terms similar to U.S. law. My general suggestion when you're dealing with an infringer who is an individual (as opposed to, say, a corporation) is to send the infringer an email that explains who you are, explains that you are the photographer and that you uploaded the photo under a license that requires that use of the photo be attributed, and requests them to comply or remove the photo. This is not legal advice. Spikebrennan 15:08, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nom removed even though it wasn't adminned

The nom of the engraving of the Kingston Fire is no longer in the queue, even though that nom doesn't seem to have been adminned. Should it be brought back in, or adminned as is? Spikebrennan 16:02, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I closed it. MER-C 03:26, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Featured pictures

Hello everyone, what are your thoughts on a 'WikiProject Featured pictures'? I have designed a project page for fun, see here. It sounds like a good idea to me; it could be similar in some respects to WikiProject Good articles where we have a greater coordination of featured picture candidates and so forth. If feedback is positive, I might just move it to mainspace (I don't think there would be any need to make a proposal) and we'll take it from there. Thoughts? -- Chris B • talk • contribs 18:03, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

That sounds like a really good idea to me. In fact, I think it is part of a larger and pressing need to better guide and organize the pictures on wikipedia. In so many articles people have uploaded and put into articles pictures that may be of their pet hamster or rabbit. There are many people that attempt to keep these pictures in the articles for an ego trip or a tribute to "fluffy" or whatever. This may fall under wiki project photography (which seems to be inactive) but we should really make an effort to stardardize the pictures of given subjects... Flowers would be an example. Having a "photo info box" so to speak, would be awesome . Maybe with an overall shot, a shot of the flower, of the stalk, of the leaves, all in a standard format. I'd personally like to see animal shots of that animal in the wild and relegate cage shots to related sections of the articles. Actually, I have sort of an ambition to create photo field guides for flowers, insects, fish, whatever... where people could browse through a catagory like snakes based on color, marking patters, etc. I think this would benefit the encyclopedia for a lot of people. I may be alone in wanting to see improvement for the general level of pictures and if so let me know : ). Id like to hear others ideas... -Fcb981(talk:contribs) 00:33, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Does this mean that I'll have some slaves to carry out the closing procedure for me? On a more serious note, will this project line up the main page POTDs? And will we have a scout group sifting through here and commons for feature worthy pictures? MER-C 09:31, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Featured sounds needs some attention, too. I suppose the proposed project could help with that as well. MER-C 09:36, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
The project's scope is up to the community really. The obvious one is maintaining Featured picture candidates, although closing noms and sorting PODs would be perfect too. I don't think many people are aware that anyone can close a nom; I only learnt that recently! Featured sounds maintenance and coordination is also an idea worth considering. -- Chris B • talk • contribs 13:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I think the scope needs to be broader if it's not to fizzle out due to lack of interest, but (further to Fcb's comment above) I'd concentrate on images, at least at the outset. I like the project idea a lot, but the currently listed areas of interest are basically a formalised version of activities already undertaken at FPC. It would catalyze activity better if it focussed on selecting the best (ie most FP-like) of the pool of WP images and raising them a level, maybe to category-related galleries, or simply "best of" themed galleries, in which prospective FPs might be "farmed". This is how I would expect "scout groups" to be most effective, searching out the best in to galleries and providing editors in general with a more centralised resource of quality images. I realise there's a lot of crossover with Commons but as a specifically enc-oriented activity I reckon it has real potential. mikaultalk 14:09, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Infusing project photography with more life seems like a better idea than to start a new project. Above on this page you can read people upset with the technical specifications and critical feedback for featured pictures, and I think that's because FP is about the best we've got as a supportive community for photographers. Guess what: FP is not a supportive community for photographers, and I can't image a wikiproject FP being supportive, either. Nothing that's trying to identify the very best of anything is every going to be supportive. What photographers need is advice in a context other than "does it meet x criteria" and instead in a context of "what would work best for the article?" and "what equipment do you have?" Enuja (talk) 20:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I think this new WikiProject is entirely unnecessary. I would much rather see more energy invested in the existing WikiProject Photography. It is disappointing to see a proposed WP with a much more polished page than an existing one with a much larger scope. Rather than a project focusing on giving out awards for pictures, why not focus on improving ALL photos on Wikipedia? Cacophony 22:16, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok, people. I am starting a revival effort for WP:PH. If you are interested in helping please sign up in the new participants list on the page. I need to go to sleep now and tomorrow is my b-day. Could someone please archive the talk page and maybe come up with ideas for a recruitment template. Then maybe we can start spreading the word at FPC and the photo matching service and FP as well. People can suggest ideas at the talk page. help would be greatly appreciated. =) -Fcb981(talk:contribs) 03:36, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I've made a small start on the page, by way of offsetting a complete lack of effort in the coming weeks, as I'll be on a long-ish wikibreak. Happy birthday, Fcb :o) mikaultalk 07:41, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
It's good to hear people's views. I think I agree with reinstating WikiProject Photography, and possibly even widening its scope. I hadn't realised the project was in such poor shape. Maintaining all of Wikipedia's images as opposed to just FPs is the more logical of idea. I'll gladly help revolutionize the project's pages too. (and happy birthday Fcb981!) -- Chris B • talk • contribs 08:10, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Something to keep us busy for a little while

I had a little free time, with the borked Twinkle putting an end to my usual vandalism patrol, so I decided to check out how many nominations never made it to the front page. So what I did was compared Special:Prefixindex/Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/ with everything in the archives and this was what I got:

So what needs to be done?

I'd say this would be a worthy task for a FPC bot. MER-C 12:49, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

  • I could do some of this manually. Why don't we strike the lines when we finish? NauticaShades 16:09, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Commons FP Promotion

I made the this template to notifiy commons-only users when their pictures have been promoted on Wikipedia. A good idea? NauticaShades 16:12, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

probably should say has been promoted on the English Wikipedia or something so they know without having to check the links but other than that I like it. Cat-five - talk 23:53, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] FPC 'No Consensus'

First of all I want to say thanks to MER-C for the great work he's doing closing the FPCs. A couple of questions that I thought worth bringing to general discussion though, the first one here.

While most candidates are either closed as Promoted or Not Promoted, the odd candidate is getting closed as No consensus. Refer to "Kasa de la Muntanya", Barcelona and Diet Coke and Mentos Geyser as two recent examples.

Now let me first say I didn't vote on either of these, so have no vested interest either way. Going on the votes I feel that the Diet Coke one should have been promoted, the other one probably not. But that's not really the issue.

My question is this. To me No consensus is a no-man's-land closure. I personally feel the image should be either promoted or not; if it's really unclear then perhaps it could go back up for renomination to hopefully get a clear call. How do others feel about this? Any opinions any which way? --jjron 08:57, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

There are some noms that are too close to call (I'd say the range is about 60%-70% in favour for this to happen). As such, its a note to the nominator to try again later, as in a few months time. MER-C 09:18, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Ah, I didn't realise you left a note to renominate later. I wonder, does this ever happen? And if perhaps we would get a more immediate response by renominating immediately with a note that no consensus was reached in last week's nom and a link to the no consensus nom? People could of course then vote again on the renom even if they voted the first time - some may even reconsider and change their vote. Of course you could end up a week later with the same result, but lengthy discussions over some issues that deter some voters would probably be cut on the renom, and some people that didn't vote the first time would probably come in to try to settle things. I just feel a bit cheated by the 'no consensus' candidates, as effectively it's really a 'not promoted' anyway. --jjron 09:57, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] {{ifdc}}

What do you guys think about having an equivalent of the {{ifdc}} template for FPC nominations to put in the caption area? NauticaShades 15:00, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Certainly not in my opinion. {{Ifdc}} is already a hideous template and one too many. A theoretical {{ifdc}} for FP candidates would simply disrupt readers from the topic in hand. Plus, it would be another self-reference. I've probably been a bit blunt there, but that's just my opinion; others may disagree. :) -- Chris B • talk • contribs 15:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I was aware of the self-reference issue, which was why I was creating a discussion about it. NauticaShades 15:20, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Chris B - I think traffic to the FPC page is high enough. Debivort 15:59, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arguments to avoid in FPC discussions

I wrote a little section on FPC at Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in feature discussions. Have I missed anything? MER-C 13:20, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Featured_picture_candidates"
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