Talk:Ariel Sharon

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This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or if there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard.
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Ariel Sharon was a good article, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Removal date: 17 August 2007
Archive 1 Archive 2

Contents

[edit] Cleanup

I added a cleanup tag because this article needs some work. What I mean is that the way this article has been written, it acts like Sharon's recent strokes are the biggest events in his life. They're not. He has done a lot more then become prime minister and die, and yet this article dedicates waaaayyyyyy too much room to his strokes. pielover87 07:32, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi. I keep making grammatical corrections in this article, and I see that they keep disappearing. To all of you out there, I am a professional writer, and my knowledge of American-style English is virtually perfect (Wikipedia was started in America, and there are more native speakers of American-style English than British-style English, as funny as that sounds and with all due respect to the motherland of the English language, so I feel that spelling and placement of punctuation in relation to quotation marks should reflect the American style, especially since most of the spelling and quotation-mark-related punctuation placement in the article already are in the American style - let's be consistent). So please don't add a comma or delete a hyphen, for instance, in my revisions. Thank you. By the way, my mother grew up a few miles from Sharon's ranch, and Sharon and his sons have friends from my mother's community. Additionally, I've read Sharon's autobiography. So if you see me adding a minor fact about his life, please don't delete it unless you have read his autobiography and have interviewed his friends from my mother's kibbutz a few miles down the road from his Sycamore Farm and have found out then that I have erred. I don't see myself as better than any of you - I just happen to have access to some knowledge about Sharon's life that many of you happen to not have because my mother was born in a certain place. Thank you again.66.214.230.155 19:06, 6 January 2006 (UTC)66.214.230.155

Hi to you. I agree wholeheartedly with your comments. With all due respect, it is my experience, that people on Wikipedia tend to accord other users and Wiki editors more respect if they are registered users. I notice that you are not a registered user. I had the same experience as you until I registered. Perhaps you are registered and just didn't use your registered name for the above comment? Registering is easy, free and non-invasive. Also, you might follow the directions at the top of the page and add your new Talk comments to the bottom of the page to keep folks happy. Crunch 22:39, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
  • I don't think there should be any standard dialect for articles, just keep it consistent! 85.138.88.136 04:14, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Current Event??

Does this article really need a current event tag? IMO, Ariel Sharon is not a current event, however Israeli-Palestinian_Conflict may be. If nobody has any objections, I will remove the Current Event tag around this time tomorrow. -Werdna648T/C\@ 03:56, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

I think the current event really referred to the Kadima party, before that article existed. In any case, thank you for taking off the tag! gidonb 12:07, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Somewhat Impressed Overall

I am somewhat impressed overall of the portrayal of Ariel Sharon in his actions and policies. The continued debate over what is and is not pertinent in this biography is at the forefront of why I am impressed. I am pleased that people continue to place negative and positive aspects, for to have only of one side is POV. However, I must contend the placement of media views. It is a widely known fact that every news agency is known to twist information to their perspective, especially mainstream media such as the BBC and the New York Times. Largely, I have found the most major cases at this site[1]. While not anti-Israel, it is at the very least anti-media bias against Israel, such as the case in this news report on the supposed Israeli soldier attack on a Palestinian here, [2]. As noted in the article, an Israeli soldier is said to be shown attacking a Palestinian youth; however, the case is quite the opposite as he is trying to protect an ISRAELI youth from a mob of Palestinians. This is a cause to question the information in every news report, both pro- and anti-Israeli, as media can not only twist information, but blatantly lie about it as well.

In no regards am I anti-Palestinian, in fact I am both pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian. I feel that the only method that could possibly be attainable for the peace of a single state would be the combination of Israel and Palestine into one single nation, with equal rights given to EVERY citizen. I will explain why at a later posting under Israel, as I have not the time at the moment.--Antibias 08:55, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your positive comments. If you can improve the article after reading the guidelines for users, you are welcome to give it a try. As for your promise to explain your views on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict when you find time - don't bother as we are not a discussion forum. Best regards, gidonb 12:12, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] VANDALISM!

As you can see, there is vandalism on this page. I can't revert the page because I am not an admin. Somebody needs to revert this NOW! Newguineafan 21:58, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Never mind, I reverted it. Can someone help me with the copyright status, though? Newguineafan 22:16, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

  • Er, from the article history it was you who vandalised the article. At least, it was your diff that changed the image. If it was you, don't do it again. Hedley 23:37, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
    • Vandalism corrected, and I eventually replaced the picture with one that is a free license. Newguineafan, what you need to do is press the revert key ONCE then press the F5 key, and that will refresh your cache that will show the new photo. Zach (Sound Off) 23:47, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
      • BTW, if you think we could get this photo under a free license, this should be a good idea, IMHO. Zach (Sound Off) 23:56, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
        • I'll email them to see what the deal is with the image. I'll report back if and when I get a response. - Pyro19 04:08, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
        • GOOD NEWS: We have kindly been given permission to use the image. The source must be cited! I'll add it to the article right now.
          • Damn, I just noticed that we aren't allowed to use images with permission anymore. That's too bad, it's an excellent image. - Pyro19 04:22, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Health issues

I have not figured out exactly where and how this should be included in the article (there is a paragraph on his health at the end of the intro and there is a separate section, "Stroke"), and I am still awaiting a source that is clearly reliable, so I am leaving the article alone for now. However, I have been hearing radio news reports for days that Sharon's medical condition is a bit more complicated than a "minor stroke." This was further confirmed this morning when I heard that he will be having a "procedure" on his heart. Now I have found this article [[3]] which confirms that he will undergo catheterization to repair "a small hole in his heart"; that the stroke was not "minor"; and that some in Israel (at least, his political opponents) have questioned the accuracy of the medical reports and appear to have doubts that he is making decisions on his own. The latter statements must be taken very cautiously because they are obviously an attempt to influence the upcoming election, but at the same time it may turn out that the doubts about Sharon's fitness to continue as Prime Minister are valid. Someone may wish to edit the article based on this information, but at the very least, it bears watching. 6SJ7 16:53, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, someone has now added some medical information, including the upcoming operation, but it is so much in medical-ese that I am not sure a general readership can be expected to understand it, but for the same reason I am not sure how to edit it into plain English and still retain the gist of it. Even so, the new information does not mention that the operation will be a "catheterization," which I think would at least have some meaning for the general reader. It amazes me that a heart defect that Sharon has had all his life (which I assume is implied by "congenital") should "decide" to manifest itself right at this pivotal moment in his career, but that's life I guess (and I realize that my amazement is non-encyclopedic.) 6SJ7 03:30, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Controversy

The hoax that was just included in this article and promptly erased is analyzed for example here. gidonb 17:32, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reported Death

I have a dispute with the last paragraph and with the first line which states that Sharon has died. No other source currently confirms that the massive stroke suffered by P.M. Sharon has led to his death. Neither Reuters/AP/Fox News/CNN has this info yet. We should hold off on his death date until it is clear that he has died. ber06122, January 4, 2006, 5:41 p.m. (EST)

I saw that, it really confused me since no news sources were reporting it. People just can't be patient and wait! Weatherman90 22:49, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Sky News has just reported that Sharon's prognosis is "extremely bleak". However rumours of his death are greatly exaggurated. Don't report his death (which seems likely in today) until at a major source (BBC, ABC, NBC, Sky) confirms a newswire story. Newswires do report rumours and then withdraw them. The key is the TV broadcasts. They will double-check any reports with their own stringers in Jerusalem. If they state it as fact it usually (not always, but usually) means that they have verified it from two sources. A newswire report in isolation is no guarantee of accuracy. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 23:04, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

The last time the major news agencies reported anything in unison, they said 12 miners in the 2006 Sago Mine disaster were alive. Just pointing that out. BlueGoose 00:58, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Just want to say that almost all the news nets have been practically putting his coffin in the ground for the last two hours with their "Life After Sharon" analysis bits - even though it's obvious he's about to die it's still in bad taste. PMA 02:09, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

This article has been under vandalism attack for hours, in all cases it seems from anonymous IPs. Rather than protect it and stop all edits to it, as was requested, I have imposed semi-protection, which will allow its updating from registered users but stop people just coming on to WP to attack this article. That seems to be the major problem right now — visiting editors who edit nothing else but this because of its news worthiness. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 00:13, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Can you just Put one of those New-Fangled Semi-Protection things on it. The stroke section needs expansion. --Irishpunktom\talk 00:24, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Inform me

I am a novice when it comes to Israeli Politics, and I am wondering what would happen should Ariel Sharon actually die. Would a member of his party take over; and if so how would Israeli policy change? I appreciate any help that you can provide. Avengerx 03:43, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

According to Prime minister of Israel#Order_of_Succession, in this particular case, Deputy Premier Ehud Olmert would take over on a temporary basis. It doesn't seem clear whether there'd be a new election, or what (or if it is clear, that article needs updating). -- Pakaran 04:23, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
According to [4], Olmert can serve for 100 days, at which time the government falls (and presumably an election is held). -- Pakaran 04:55, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Actually as per [5] the President will choose someone to form a government.

I vaguely remember when Yitzhak Rabin was assasinated, Shimon Peres took over as PM. BlueGoose 06:40, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Ehud Olmert is the acting prime minister, according to law. He was appointed to be the stand-in prime minister in 2003, long before the current events. He is a rather experienced politician - Knesset member since the 70's (like Sharon!), held several ministerial portfolios (industry, finance, health etc.), mayor of Jerusalem for 10 years. He is also number 2 in Sharon's new Kadima party. However he is nowhere near Sharon in terms of charisma and popularity - and experience too. The elections will probably still be held on the 28th of March. Sharon was, until yesterday, thought to be the sure winner, however now things are not clear at all. It is highly unlikely now that Sharon will run at all. That makes Benjamin Netanyahu and Amir Peretz much more likely contenders for the post. Any current speculations are not worth much.--Amir E. Aharoni 09:34, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the info, everyone. Avengerx 13:18, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] please add wikinews box

{{wikinews|Israeli PM Sharon rushed to hospital}}
Which produces:

I forgot about semi protection. sorry. Bawolff 05:29, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Done, also removed semi-protection for now, I'll keep an eye on the article though. -- Pakaran 05:30, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Somewhat Strange Space After Link

Towards the middle/end of the third paragraph in the introduction there is a somewhat stranged space after a link and before a period. This isn't the only instance in which this occurs; the same thing is present in the http article. When I went to edit that article to fix it, the word that was linked in the non-edit version of the article didn't appear to be linked at all in the edit version, meaning there was no link format at all, if that makes sense to anyone. Now there are certainly better things to worry about as far as the article goes, and it doesnt at all hinder the information presented, I figured I would just bring it up, if for nothing else than my own curiosity as to why those spaces are there. --Zachjones4 05:50, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] separation of early life and early military career

When I read the article, it kind of seems like the information about his early life shouldn't be lumped in with his early military career, although the transition between his pre-adolecent years and his joining the paramilitary group ties in nicely. The awkward part is when it jumps from the merging of Unit 101 with the 202nd Paratroopers brigade to the fact that he has been widowed twice. --Zachjones4 05:55, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eternal judgement

In front of the Eternal Judge the Sharon will have to account for Shatila and Sabla! Make it clear, he will not meet Gandhi and Mother Theresa in the afterlife. 195.70.32.136 09:15, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Will he be busy beating the crap out of Hitler in the afterlife then?!--CAN T 20:41, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Tsk tsk, POV, another POV is that he will be high fived for Sabra and Shatila but will have to account for the Gaza ethnic cleansing and other Judenrat actions. Kuratowski's Ghost 02:28, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
The President of Iran just said in public that "the executioner of Shatila and Sabla will join his ancestors in hell". It is all over world news sites.
  • For 195.70.32.136: Judge not, that ye may not be judged (Matthew 7:1) CharonX 01:29, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
  • For CharonX:People judge and kill others for millenia.So whats the harm to shout a bit of hatred in virtual world.Can anyone with an unbiased mind believe that he will be sitting in Paradise?If he does,I'll beg to get into hell.--CAN T 20:46, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
We must condemn evil. Do you think that we shall not condemn the nazism? The zionists do to palestinians exactly what nazis did to the jews. Lebensraum: the desire to displace people from their land of birth and use the territory for the sole benefit of the master race. Jews think they are a superior race over arabs and persians, they even did human experiments together with apartheid South Africa to develop diseases that attack negro and arabs, but leave white bosses and juden intact. They developed nukes to eliminate those "inferior races". Sharon did encourage such great crimes against humanity in his high military and political positions. He was utmost evil. 195.70.48.242 10:59, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

ok, you want some statistics? "Only 0.25% of the world population is Jewish, but Jews make up an estimated 28% of Nobel prize winners in physics, chemistry, medicine, and economics". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_intelligence i am in no way trying to say that jews are superior - that would be stupid. what i am trying to say is that those anti-jewish comments seem to develop from envy.

Hold it, people! looks like this turned out to be the "curse Sharon club". are you guys aware that back in the 1940s the arabs were harassing the jews in the holy land? And in 1948 Israel suffered an unprovoked attack from 5 arab nations with the explicit sole purpose of massacre? you're mixing up the victims and agressors! And has Ahmadinejad ever been to hell? Does he have proof that Sharon's ancestors are in such a place? I don't think so. And most important of all, has anyone ever seen or heard any israeli leader cursing other prominent arab figures? Absolutely not! Ahmadinejad is 100% ignorant hatred.

Well,boom.They name you Anti-Semitist,without realizing the exact etymological meaning of this new argumental weapon.--CAN T 20:41, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

"diseases that attack negro and arabs, but leave white bosses and juden intact"

No.Jews and Arabs hail from the same gene-pool.Semitic(yes,SEMITIC).A gene-disease which kills Arabs also should kill Jews just as easily.Your post smacks of urban legends.--CAN T 20:46, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Photo of Ehud Olmert?

While Deputy Prime Minister Ehud Olmert is relevant to the failing health of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, what's the purpose of placing Ehud Olmert's photo on Sharon's page? --Scottie theNerd 13:51, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree Olmert's picture is not relevant to Sharon's article --Cramer 14:15, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I've removed Olmert's image for above reasons. If anyone feels like it should re-inserted, feel free to discuss it here. --Scottie theNerd 14:47, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

FWIW, I agree with its removal. --Elliskev 14:52, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sabra and Shatilla edits

I think that characterizing the first Sabra and Shatilla massacre as "one of the worst exterminations of the 20th century" is both a POV violation and patently false; as tragic and deplorable as it was, it didn't reach the proportions of countless others. --Leifern 16:33, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

True - Srebrenica, for example, saw 8000+ Bosnian Muslims massacred over a period of days by the Serbs. And let's not forget Hama, where tens of thousands of Syrians were killed by Assad - or the genocide against the Kurds and the Marsh Arabs by Saddam Hussein, or the killing of Lebanese Christians at Darmour, or the Killing Fields of Cambodia, or My Lai - the list goes on... Lebanon was a hideous war and Shatila and Sabra a terrible atrocity but its not one of the worst exterminations of the 20th Century. I'm surprised Sharon is not condemned more for the bombing of Beirut. Shatila and Sabra have become emblematic of something. Its worth remembering that the shock of it brought thousands of Israelis out onto the street in protest. User: ThePeg 16.15. 2.6.2006

That sounds like justification for a huge amount of deaths Robert Taylor 19:49, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

There are some claims here that Syria is responsible for Sabra and Shatila. This is a viewpoint held by a very tiny minority since it suggests that Israel and Syria were allies cooperating with each other during the massacre. Either way, it does not belong in an article about Ariel Sharon. Yuber(talk) 02:05, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the word "strangely" from the phrase " "Strangely, The Kahan Commission also claimed ...," as it is clearly POV. Gni 21:25, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

The Sabra/Shatilla section has become disturbingly partisan. One added section reads: "The subsequent Israeli Kahan commission of enquiry into this atrocity provided absolute proof that Israeli soldiers saw the massacre taking place. The evidence of a Lieutenant Avi Grabovsky was crucial. He was an Israeli deputy tank commander and reported what he saw to his higher command. He was told by his senior officers: 'Don't interfere.'" Saying in introducing the Kahan report that the report "provided absolute proof..." is a misrepresentation of the Kahan report. The Kahan report actually concluded that "...we determine that indeed I.D.F. soldiers who were near the embankment which surrounded the camp saw certain acts of killing and an attempt was made to report this to commanders of higher ranks; but this report did not reach Brigadier General Yaron or Major General Drori." Indeed, Grabovsky never claimed that he himself was told "Don't interfere" by senior officers. Rather, he said that he was anecdotally by collegues that officers responded to an earlier radio bulletin by someone else that they are disturbed by the reports, but that the soldier should not interfere. I'm removing the reference to Grabovsky. If it is to be in, it should reflect the actual contents, and just as importantly, the actual tenor of the Kahan report. Gni 21:44, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

This is becoming annoying to be honest, people are only insisting on including the softer parts of the Kahan Commission and refusing to include any other sources on the massacre. I have added a part about Palestinian survivor testimonies, which I referenced. Please do not remove it, it is laughable that some of you want to make sure that the viewpoints of the survivors, who were not consulted for the Kahan Commission, are not included.
Also, Gaborsky clearly said that he was told not to interfere, and I reinstated that part. If you don't like that fact, you shouldn't remove it.
I suggest you reread the report, carefully. Again, Grabowsky was never told by his senior officers "don't interfere." Grabowsky spoke with a tank crew, whose members claimed to have heard a communications report in which a commander had said, "We know, it's not to our liking, and don't interfere." I will paste the text of the report below. Secondly, if you are quoting a sentence fragment ("Don't interfere"), it needs an ellipsis. But in this case, it is downright distortion to quote "Don't interfere" instead of the full quote: "We know, it's not to our liking, and don't interfere." In any case, as it is, it is simply incorrect. I am removing it again. Maybe the administrator could take a look at the Kahan report to verify that commanders never told Grabowsky "don't interfere," but rather a tank crew told him that they heard a commander say the bit. Finally, how is it neutral POV to claim that other investigations "have all been more candid" than the Kahan report. I'm not interested in getting into which reports are more orless candid here in discussion--and such point of view certainly does not belong in the article itself.
Here is the actual text from the Kahan report regarding Grabowsky:
Lieutenant Grabowsky wanted to report the event by communications set to his superiors, but the tank crew told him that they had already heard a communications report to the battalion commander that civilians were being killed, [and] the battallion commander had replied, "We know, it's not to our liking, and don't interfere." Gni 02:35, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No title

To the ignorant administrator (Markasexander100) who keeps revising my grammatical revisions and changing of such misnamings as "Israeli Defense Forces" to "Israel Defense Forces" (its proper name), you're a clown. Don't mess with my edits; I'm not vandalizing anything - I'm fixing the inconsistencies in grammar in this article and adding minor details of an impartial nature. Also, ignorant administrator, I am something you're not: a speaker of Hebrew, and with the knowledge of that language, I'm correcting some of the transliterations from Hebrew to English in certain people's names. Why not have the Hebrew names as the people who have the names say them, as opposed to the way people ignorant of the Hebrew language say them? Additionally, ignorant administrator, you list yourself as a native speaker of English, but since you reverted all of my edits, which included corrections of grammatical errors and inconsistencies in the article, I obviously not only know a language that you don't know, I also know how to speak your own language better than you. I'm a professional writer and a historian by training with a much deeper knowledge of the Middle East than yours. My mother grew up a few miles from Sharon's ranch; Sharon knows people who live in my mother's community. I feel that I'm entitled thus to add a few minor facts. Now, if you have a problem with how infinitesimally longer the article is becoming because of my edits (and it's probably not because I'm taking out a few misplaced letters here and there, along with my minor additions), you should say so. Be true to the scholarship in which Wikipedia believes - proper scholarship, not your personal non-scholarship. If you don't change my changes (all made in good will), I apologize to you in advance. Unsigned by 66.214.230.155

.ויקיפדיה אינה בימת נאומים El_C 22:12, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
If you're User:66.214.230.155 I reverted your edit which broke a link to Labour (Israel). I suggest you check the edit history before being so silly in future. Mark1 23:50, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
I also fixed that, I believe on more than one occasion. El_C 01:18, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Let's keep this civil. I greatly appreciate your contributions El_C, but please calm down a bit - calling people ignorant won't help resolve this matter in any way. CharonX 01:23, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Heh, that wasn't me. :) El_C 02:22, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arabic Name

While Arabic is an offical language in Israel, I don't understand what Ariel Sharon's name needs to be written in Arabic in this article. I do not see any precedent to this with other Israeli figures. The original name is in Hebrew and should only be translated to Hebrew. Thoughts? --Cramer 22:24, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

No harm in it; he is the PM of country with a substantial Arab-speaking population. El_C 02:26, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes but the original name is in Hebrew, not Arabic. --Cramer 10:46, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
In some countries (like mine) with more than one official language it's specifically allowed by law to adress to the head of state by its name "translated" to any of the official languages. Maybe something similar happens in Israel? --62.57.93.138 18:31, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
If we are going let this through, then all Israeli names on Wikipedia ought to be translated to Arabic as well. --Cramer 20:12, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Thanks to whoever removed it --Cramer 10:57, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] PM status

Don't change the succession box yet. Sharon remains Prime Minister until either one of three things happens: (1) he dies, (2) he resigns, or (3) he is declared permanently incapacitated. He is currently temporarily incapacitated as far as the law is concerned, ie, they do not know officially whether he can resume the post or not. (In practice he probably cannot, but that isn't officially declared yet.) His deputy is merely acting PM (ie, he isn't PM but fulfils the role). As of now he will not feature in the list of Israeli PMs. Only if Sharon is declared permanently incapacitated will the deputy assume not merely the powers but the role of PM.

BTW does any know what the technical procedure is for formally declaring an Israeli PM incapacitated? Some countries require Supreme Courts to issue such a ruling. Others require a ruling of parliament, or of the Parliamentary Speaker, or of the cabinet, or of the cabinet secretary, or of the head of state? What is the formal procedure in Israel? It might be useful for WP to know, because given Sharon's condition it is only a matter of when, not if, that ruling is made and he is deemed to no longer be PM. Alternatively though, it could be decided not to make such a ruling, but to leave him theoretically in office and continue using an acting PM (on the basis that sympathy for Sharon would boost his party's prospects in the general election). But leaving him in power would be controversial. Unusually a constitutionally independent officer or organisation has the task of ruling someone permanently incapacitated and so de jure terminate their premiership. FearÉIREANN\(caint)

I agree with you - de facto he ceased to be PM when he had the massive stroke but de jure he still holds the office. (One of the medical experts the BBC had on last night said that if it was anybody but the PM, they would've stopped trying to save him by then as the prognosis with this kind of stroke is so dire.) PMA 02:14, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Note my changes to Israel. El_C 02:23, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Big Question

No matter what you think of Ariel Sharon's life, a big unanswered question hangs over Israel and the world: What now? unsigned by 67.50.32.67

Now we wait. El_C 02:52, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

The answer is,there are hundreds of people in Israel like him.Another one will be elected.That's my opinion after the death of Yitzak Rabin.Yes it is.--85.105.127.49 08:55, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Converting to Template:Ref and Template:Note

Any chance of converting the inline links to {{ref}} and {{note}}? - Ta bu shi da yu 03:06, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Go for it! What? El_C 04:44, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
It might be easier to use <ref> and </ref> as described here. -- JeremyA 04:53, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge article

I am proposing that the recently created article Illnesses of Ariel Sharon be merged here, with the transference of the relevant information. There is absolutely no reason for there to be a separate article about his health problems, especially when this article already addresses the early problems he had in December of 2005. And there aren't that many "illnesses", anyway. He has a birth defect in his heart, and he had (possibly as a consequence of the previous problem), two strokes in two months. That's it. A reporter's speculation on whether or not the PM is obese does not seem suited for Wikipedia, not to mention that it seems to be a generalization to iclude it in the same "package" as the heart defect and the strokes (which is what this new article ends up doing, by listing it all as "the illnesses of Ariel Sharon"). Regards, Redux 03:20, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I advise to refrain, for now; the merge may be better suited for later. The main article spin-off appears to give us more maneuverability with respect to current new(s) developments. A lot of the detail that can go on in the main article might to be suited for a biographical article, but it's detail that people right now wish to know. And it's convinent to have a smaller space, too. El_C 04:43, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Well the obesity issue isn't idle speculation, there are a million stories about Sharon's eating habits and people have been worried for a long time that his weight would come back to haunt him. Sharon's obesity is very encyclopedic since the stroke that resulted from it seems very likely to throw the political situation into turmoil.
As for whether the article should be moved, I agree with El C, there are a lot of advantages to having a separate article. Wikipedia has a serious problem with articles where a huge amount of detail is loaded into one section, throwing that section out of proportion with the article. If we merge in the article on Sharon's illness and the story keeps going for another week than the section on Sharon's illness will take up half the article on Sharon, better to put it in a separate article. The illness deserves an article because it is an important news story, not just one aspect of Sharon's life. GabrielF 04:52, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
It seems that only a week ago he was joking about people eating sufganyot and levivot, "but not overdoing it" — that's because it was a week ago. El_C 04:57, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
About a year ago a friend of my Dad's was at a party that Sharon attended. The host made two large trays of deviled eggs and Sharon planted himself next to the food and ate one and a half of them. Nobody wanted to stop him because of course he's the prime minister. It really seems strange that something like a guy's eating habits can change the course of history. GabrielF 05:10, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
That's a lot of deviled eggs! Granted, they are delicious, but still... El_C 05:28, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
It's all a matter of odds; a tenth of a milimeter here or there and an otherwise inconsequential this or that becomes pivotal. Considering his eating habits, it's in itself a minor miracle that he remained in such relative good health — born in the 1920s(!). El_C 05:35, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Merge: Separate article is overkill --DuKot 05:04, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Dear DuKot, thankfuly this is(?) a discussion, not a vote. ;) El_C 05:28, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

From what I can tell, the only worthwhile and non-repetative information in the "Illnesses" article are the "International reactions" which are important. The other stuff about Sharon eating Pringles is a joke. Sharon is an old man, most people don't make it to 77, and as he is close to 78 all the discussions are moot because old people get sick and die from such things as heart attacks, strokes, diabetes, pneumonia, dehydration, or accidents (what's missing?). Sharon is nothing special. The article should be renamed, if anything, to the Health of Ariel Sharon and how he functioned so well for most of his high-pressured life. IZAK 06:42, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

There's pringles now? Why don't you and Tomer and others begin to delete impertinent material liberally, then we can see where we stand. There are more international reactions, for example, the Pope calling on Catholics to pary for his recovery (if I recall correctly). Adding more details about the health aspect of it could be beneficial; detail impertinent to a biographical article (entailing a more brief summary of these), but that readers may still find interest in. Feel free to change the title to Health of Ariel Sharon, or whatever you see fit, I don't consider the title to be of an important issue (barring pringles & such!). El_C 06:48, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Point is, in the context of Israel (and beyond), this is a major historical event. He was in Office. What if after a while we merge and perhaps by then would end up with a stroke conspiracy article or something of the sort...? Difficult to tell. Let's not be hasty, is all I'm asking. El_C 06:54, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
There is some precedent for keeping a separate article for a major event in a person's life. For Ronald Reagan there is a separate article on the Reagan assassination attempt for example. The article on Sharon's illness has room to grow. For example, information can be included on how prime ministerial successions are handled in Israel and an exhaustive list of statements from world leaders can be included, these things would not work in a biography of Sharon. GabrielF 07:24, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


The Illnesses article really should be merged...there's not a whole lot more that can be written until the next incident. Tomertalk 08:54, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
That's presumptuous, I find, and it dosen't respond to our objections; this deletionist drive at this stage is most puzzling. IZAK has just removed plenty of material that could be moved there. I don't think our readership favours a less-content appraoch. Out for now, really. El_C 09:40, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I lied! Just looked at some of the special features on Mabat [6]: הכתב אורן נהרי מביא תגובות מהעולם על מצבו של ראש הממשלה אריאל שרון - <>הכתב בועז שפירא על המערכת הפוליטית - דוברת ביה"ח הדסה עין כרם על מצבו של ראה"מ אריאל שרון - הכתב עודד גרנות מסכם את אירועי היום בעיני העולם הערבי — those are a few themes which Wikipedia can report on, in detail. El_C 10:04, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

It's not deletionist, it's realistic. Without delving into more indepth coverage of the nature of the maladies themselves, which discussion belongs in the maladies' articles, not in an article about Sharon, pending some other health crisis, there's not a whole lot more that can be written that has specifically to do with his illnesses, chief of which is that a large quantity of his ill-gotten opulence has gone into pleasing his palate. Tomertalk 10:29, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

  • Tomer: I just LOVE that line: "a large quantity of his ill-gotten opulence has gone into pleasing his palate." (What a riot!) Do you propose that as an epitaph? Hmmmmm, let's see now, baba ganoush and shawarma washed down with Turkish coffee and krembo on the side, anyone? Didn't seem to bother Sharon till less than a month ago, now we have to have an article with a falsely dramatic tone about the poor chap's health. Gimme a break, is this a Yiddishe Mama's version of the New England Journal of Medicine or are we editing a serious encyclopedia? Shabbat Shalom as I head off to prepare my cholent and dream of hot kneidlach in my lokshen soup and kugels, brisket and corned beef after shull services -- all only kosher of course. IZAK 10:50, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
    • hahaha. Yeah, it was fun writing it.  :-) Personally, I love babaganush and shvarma, but not coffee (gag) or krembo (puke). Shubbiss shoylem to you, and shabath shalom to me and shabat shalom to those who don't prefer either of the prior versions, I think the article is a bit of overkill, but I don't think it's worth arguing about. Enjoy your cholent, I'll enjoy my jamín...knaidlekh sound good right now actually...we'll see ... I'm thinking about wild and brown rice mixed and mixed vegetables with baked salmon for sometime over shabath... y'all should c'mon over.  :-) after musaf of course, in my esnoga...  :-p OK. nuffa dat. :-) Tomertalk 11:00, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
    • Hey wait a minute why are you casting aspersions at me, I said Shabbat Shalom didn't I? Do not underestimate the breadth of my associations and experiences. At any rate, due to constrictions of local geography and family convenience I will hopefully be reciting/singing Lecha dodi at my local shtiebel where they will no doubt serve pickled herring by day, unless there is a Bar Mitzva or Aufruf taking place which means goodbye to my home-made cholent as the commercial ones served in shull are usually excellent. Well I must be going now, really. Oh, and my family loves dipping their challah into techina washed down with diet Coke. Now that is a blend of the ancient with the modern, don't you think. On topic, why the heck wasn't Sharon on a strict diet in any case? Aren't generals supposed to lead by example? Anyhow, see ya later... IZAK 13:35, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
      • Any perceived aspersions hereby retracted. I'll resolve the issue with שבת שלום :-) I won't go into nutrasweet... Tomertalk 20:53, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Sigh. It's not enough that the old man is in a coma, or that the fututre of Isreal, Palestine, and probably most of the rest of the world as a result, has been thrown into uncertainty. But now you're bickering over potato chips and challah? Yes, he was severely overweight, and I have no doubt his obeisity contributed to his current condition, or that it will kill him before his time. But right now, there is something more important to worry about. We can save discussions on his diet until after his body is cold and in the grave.
It appears that the idea would be keep it separate for now, and once the whole story has unfolded, then merge it here. But if the objective is just "data management", for lack of a better term, then it would perhaps be a good idea to move the entry from the article namespace, to something like Ariel Sharon/Illnesses. We'd be making it into a temporary subpage, as opposed to an article, which is what is raising the eyebrows. Thoughts? Regards, Redux 13:30, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Leave it for now, the "Illness" article is a mess compared to the main article (since the situation is changing hourly right now). Merge once the current crisis has been resolved. Zerbey 14:47, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

As I said: we can leave them separated for now, but we should move the entry about the illnesses to a subpage position (with a temporary link to it in the main article). We can then merge the two at a later time. Redux 15:01, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
here, here. It would be silly to pass judgement for us to pass judgement on wether or not history will remember this as part of Ariel Sharon's greater story or as a seperate event in the history of the Middle East... (see: Caligula) Thesocialistesq 15:24, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm more than happy to just leave them separate for now and to merge the relevant parts, which I see as being rather minor, into this article at a time when his health problems take up fewer headlines. שבת שלום לכולם Tomertalk 20:53, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

But are there any objections to moving the temporary entry (I believe we've agreed that it's temporary) out of the article namespace, and making it a subpage of this article (Ariel Sharon)? As I said, we'd place a link to it at the top of the article, to make sure that people will find it. Regards, Redux 03:44, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Merge. Separate article is confusing and unnecessary. --Bk0 (Talk) 05:10, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Let's not lose sight of reality on account of content that isn't, for the moment, up to par. This is a top news story in the main stream media (try news.google.ca). Many editorials have and will be been written on it; books will be written on it, documentaries already in the making. El_C 10:52, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
News are supposed to be over at Wikinews, not Wikipedia. In any case, no one has objected my suggestion of moving from the article namespace to a subpage position. Should I assume consent and go ahead with the move? Regards, Redux 16:24, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, what? I am well aware of the role played by wikinews. As for moving the article to Ariel Sharon/Illnesses, I could not care less, nor do I see how it makes the slightest difference about anything. Perhaps you'd opt explain why it matters, though? No one, to my knowledge, cares about how it's denoted on the namespace (& how does it matter so long as it's linked from the main article?), but some are questioning the utility of the article itself. If and/or when it is merged, then it would no longer be on the namespace. Simple. This seems like needless overcomplexity, but again, it's trivial enough that I don't care to expend any more thought of it beyond my ("data management, for lack of a better term") puzzlement. Regards, El_C 17:34, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, it seems to be agreed upon that the separate article should not exist, and that it should be merged, but at a later time. By moving it out of the article namespace and making it a subpage of the Ariel Sharon article, with the express role of a "staging area" for a future merge, we prevent constant re-opening of the discussion of whether or not the article should be there. Furthermore, it's not proper for us to create "temporary articles", that are only there for a period of time, for a later merge with another article. Gotta keep it organized somehow. I'm only thinking about making things as clear as possible, and in the process, minimizing our work related to whether or not the article should exist. Regards, Redux 22:47, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
The only benefit (which is probably a big benefit depending on your view) of making the Illnesses article a subpage of the Ariel Sharon article is that the Illnesses of Ariel Sharon article can be made a redirect to the subpage, and when the hullabaloo settles down, the content can be merged into the Ariel Sharon article and the redirect easily changed to point to Ariel Sharon instead of to Ariel Sharon/Illnesses. What I see as the biggest arguments in favor of this is the two part "We all agree it's a temporary page"--and--"when the time comes we can avoid the whole to merge or to not merge discussion as a foregone conclusion", avoiding an edit war over where the redirect should point in the process. Thoughts? Tomertalk 11:08, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Good answer, Redux. To Tomer also: Actually, now I do have a problem with this, as a shortcut to consensus. We don't need namespace devices to reflect on the prevailing thinking that we, at this point in time, are following. We can note it in whatever notice we feel is needed (if at all). If this method is followed, I would like for it to be brought to the realm of policy and guidelines; that is, I want many more editors involved in what that method means, editorially, beyond just this case, for any possible future parallels (and for this case, future developments — as unlikely as those are with respect to turning the article in the future into a notable topic in itself). Hope that makes sense. Regards, El_C 13:32, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your words :) And what you're saying does make sense, and I agree. I'd favor that, once we've moved the article to the subpage, the redirect from "Illnesses of Ariel Sharon" to the subpage be deleted. If anything, because people just will not research that. The tendency is for people to come to this article in order to find information about Sharon, and from here, if need be, they are redirected elsewhere. At the Ariel Sharon article, I see it as essential for us to have a header pointing to the subpage, or else people might start adding information to the main article as well, and we'll have to be going back and forth to integrate everything. And, at the subpage, I'd favor including a notice at the top, making it clear to contributors that that page is temporary, and that the content will be merged into the Ariel Sharon article at a later time, a process which could result in further trimming of the text, etc., etc.
I remember a while back I started a discussion concerning people's eagerness to create new articles about topics that should really be sections of other articles. Unfortunately, the general response I got was basically "boys will be boys", so now we are still working on this on an article by article basis. Redux 22:49, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Likewise. Point taken, but still, I'll think we may have to deal with these potential difficulties, regardless. It's possible that preparing for it so expressedly, in that sense, may compound rather than aleviate these issues. I am against a notice on top of the page since I don't wish to disorient the reader. We could, however, work on establishing such a notice on the top of the talk page. Thanks again for your thoughts. Regards, El_C 03:41, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I think you misunderstood my take on the primary benefit of making Illnesses of Ariel Sharon a subpage (i.e., Ariel Sharon/Illnesses) as open advocacy...I was just making an argument, not standing behind it. See Devil's advocate. Tomertalk 08:09, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Not really, I thought you were trying to explain it. See Doublespeak argument, for kicks. ;) El_C 08:25, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I think somebody's been stealing my drugs again... :-p Tomertalk 10:01, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
That's the spirit! What? :D El_C 13:19, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

While Tomer is looking for his precious pills ;), I'll say this: a notice on the talk page only would be sufficient for users minimally experienced, but anons and generally newcomers tend to ignore those. I'm thinking that if some major development were to take place (such as mr. Sharon dying), the main article would be overwhelmed with anons wanting to pitch in about what happened. El_C is right: no matter how much we antecipate and prepare, there's always the possibility that everything will go down the pipes. Of course, as a last resource, if the main article becomes too unstable as a result of the current events (which would render pointless our having a staging area for this), we might consider temporary protection of the Ariel Sharon article (or rather, semi-protection), as a means of directing the "mess" to the temporary entry. But, why is it that you think that a notice at the top of the article could disorient users/readers? Redux 12:28, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

We should assume our readreship are not familliar with editorial notices, and it seems like a needless distraction for them. We can always v or sprotect it later if the need arises. I sprotected the article earlier today, for ex. I just would'nt worry about it, certainly not at this stage. El_C 11:56, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Humm, yes, agreed. Sprotection should be more than sufficient for this kind of situation. I'm thinking we should go ahead with the change. No one has opposed the page move recently, and it appears that we have worked out the details of the change to satisfaction. Just to be clear: we are going to: 1) Move the current Illnesses of Ariel Sharon to Ariel Sharon/Illnesses (we may still consider a different title); 2) Delete the redirect page that would be left at the present title; 3) Place two notices: One at the top of the talk page of the Ariel Sharon article and the second at the top of the subpage, informing of the intent to merge the articles at a later time. If we approve this, I can perform the necessary actions myself. Regards, Redux 23:33, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't see why you don't just leave the articles where they are, without any new tags, and wait to see how his recovery (if any) unfolds, and then decide what to do based on that. The current situation with the articles isn't hurting anybody. Of course, if you need to protect the article(s) from vandals, that is a different story. 6SJ7 00:18, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I think we've recorded enough detail in Illnesses of Ariel Sharon that we can't put it all in this article without needing to lose some information. In that case, we might as well use Wikipedia:Summary style, and just mention the broad picture here in Ariel Sharon. We could do with better name for the article, though. I agree with other suggestions that it'd be worth waiting to see how events pan out, first. — Matt Crypto 01:12, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I have not reviewed this myself, but it has been suggested during this discussion that a lot of the information at the "Illnesses.." article is redundant with what is already at this article. A later merge, in this case, would mean trimming down the information significantly. Assuming that to be a fact, the users who have posted here thus far have expressed a general opinion that the information should be merged here, just at a later time (and thus using the subpage as a staging area). I suggested moving the article to a subpage position because, if it is decided that the separate entry is temporary, just to gather and organize information before merging it into the main article, than it would be bad form for us to keep it in the article namespace. Furthermore, as long as it is there, an opening exists for people to start discussions about whether or not it should exist, and we'd be running in circles, addressing the same points over and over again. Regards, Redux 04:28, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Merge: This article should be included as a sub-section of the main Sharon article. Richardbooth 16:47, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Date mistake?

Under "Early life", 3rd paragraph:

In 1994, he was promoted to company commander and in 1951 to intelligence officer.

I think the date 1994 is incorrect, as it doesn't make much sense otherwise...

I don't know for sure, but I'm gonna go ahead and agree with you, and go out on what I consider to be a fairly sturdy limb and propose that it's prolly sposta be 1949 instead of 1994. Tomertalk 20:55, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
This was a recent act of vandalism. GabrielF 20:59, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Sharon became commander of the Golani Brigade's reconnaissance company in September 1949. (Sharon, Ariel (2001). Warrior: An Autobiography. Simon & Schuster. ISBN 074322566X, p. 68), but he became an intelligence officer for Central Command in 1950 (p. 69). --Ian Pitchford 21:25, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Medical issues

I agree with moving the detail to another article - Nixon's bio just says basically "on April 18, 1994 he suffered a major stroke and died four days later" - something simple like that can also be used when Sharon dies. PMA 21:21, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

A lot of the TV news nets are suggesting that after Sharon the political parties or the Israeli people might go for "young and healthy" in their next long term leader rather than someone like Shimon Peres who is 82. PMA 21:35, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, Nixon didn't suffer a stroke while in office, so it attracted considerably less attention, and had considerably less impact on world affairs. --Delirium 23:54, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sharon's Hebrew name

It's Ariel Ben Devorah, maybe someone can squeeze that in somewhere. I also notice that the name Arik is not mentioned anywhere in the article. Arik is to Ariel as Robert is to Bob and, especially in Israel, Sharon goes by Arik. - Pyro19 02:06, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

  • Well, surely his Hebrew name is "Ariel Sharon" and his 'European name' or whatever is "Ariel Scheinermann". If he was a Middle Ages rabbi rather than a 21st century Israeli politican maybe he would be known as "Ariel , son of X", but surely one would use his father's name here rather than his mother's.--Pharos 02:17, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
He only has one common name, Scheinerman was his birth name and he later changed it to Sharon. A Hebrew name, sometimes known as a Jewish name, is something else (read this for an explanation). You're right though that it must be his father's name rather than his mother's, so it would be Ariel ben Shmuel. I bring this up now because as people are praying for him they are using his Hebrew name. I don't really care if it's in the article, I'm just bringing it to peoples attention.
I've decided to throw Arik in the article because, quite frankly, it's bizarre for an article on Sharon to not even mention the word. - Pyro19 08:28, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I know what a Hebrew name is; it's just to me a concept that doesn't make as much sense for an Israeli Jew named Ariel as for an American Jew named George or something. For Israelis, the "son of"/"daughter of" form is just a traditional patronymic; it's not any more "Hebrew" than their ordinary name. Of course "Arik" belongs in the article; it certainly was here before and must have been removed very recently. I think it would be a bit overkill to include "Ariel ben Shmuel", but it certainly would be appropriate to include the names of his parents, which communicates the same information.--Pharos 08:59, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, you're right. His parents name should be enough. - Pyro19 10:01, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

The Ariel ben Dvora thing is being spread around by people (family, rabbis, various kibbitzers) requesting that people (individuals, synagogues, various follow-the-leader types) say a misheberakh for Ariq. Since his father is Jewish, his Hebrew name if he were to be called for an `aliya would be ben Shmu`el, not ben Dvora (although in some congregations it might be ben Shmu`el uDvora [ben Shmu`el's dad, etc.]). That said, I rather doubt that Sharon (as an Ashkenazi) actually considers his father's name to be part of his own. Not that I'm presuming to speak for him, but afaik, that's not part of Ashkenazi naming convention. Tomertalk 08:15, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

"Arik is to Ariel as Robert is to Bob" - just wanted to check, did you mean the other way around? The way the article currently reads gives the impression Arik is the diminutive, i.e. Bob. CarlosCoppola 06:49, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sabra and Shatila: contradicting understatement/weasels in the intro?

The Sabra and Shatila references in the intro and appropriate section seem out of tune with each other. The intro states:

Furthermore, some consider certain of his wartime actions (particularly during the 1982 Lebanon War, see below) to have been war crimes.

The 'Sabra and Shatila massacre' section reveals that it was the Kahan Commission that recommended Sharon to be removed from his post as defense minister because:

We have found, as has been detailed in this report, that the Minister of Defense [Ariel Sharon] bears personal responsibility. In our opinion, it is fitting that the Minister of Defense draw the appropriate personal conclusions arising out of the defects revealed with regard to the manner in which he discharged the duties of his office...

In my opinion, if the Kahan Commision reference is correct, the intro needs to be rewritten. While some consider his wartime actions to have been war crimes, I think it should be remarked in the intro that a government-appointed Israeli commission recommended his removal from office, because he bears personal responsibility.

Given the controversial topic, I'd like to hear some feedback before anyone touches the intro. 213.140.21.231 10:28, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

While the Kahan Commission refers to "personal responsibility," this is only after it makes clear that "absolutely no direct responsibility devolves upon Israel or upon those who acted in its behalf." The reference is to Sharon's "indirect responsibility"--a point that isn't (but probably should be) made clear in the "Sabra and Shatila" section. 24.61.42.54 02:28, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dead?

Does anyone else get the feeling that Sharon is dead and the media is just giving the public time to absorb the fact that they may lose this public figure? JoachimK 19:23, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

No. El_C 21:24, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
If he were, there's no reason anyone would announce that he's improving. Not to mention that for any individual media outlet, being the first to announce his death would be a major scoop. -- Pakaran 21:38, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Nope, though I do get a deja vu sensation of what happened with Arafat, SqueakBox 21:39, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Sharon's surgeon has just said his chance for survival is high. - Pyro19 22:33, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Head of neurology dept. at a major Israeli hopsital said that of these types of cases: 25% die within a few days, and of the seventy five percent that live beyond that, 25% get better and 50% show no improvement. El_C 01:40, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
People love to believe they aren't being told the whole truth. Perhaps this skepticism is good, because it ensures that people will always doubt and check the media's source material, creating greater accuracy. At the same time, I don't really think the media has a vested interest in lying about Ariel Sharon's medical crisis. People are probably more distressed now, because there's so many possible outcomes (death? full recovery? Partial recovery? Permanent disability? Resumption of political activity? Cessation of political activity and retirement into obscurity?) than there would be if there was only one outcome (death). Think of how you would feel if someone you felt passionately about (love or hate) were in a coma. Would you feel more relief if they were dead? At least then, you'd know what to expect. Now, no-one knows anything. —the preceding unsigned comment is by 67.50.32.67 (talk • contribs)
Huh. Again with the he's-already-dead-and-nobody-is-telling-us thing. Please! Sharon is not dead and Elvis is not alive ;) Redux 22:53, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External link

Can someone explain why the external link I added was deleted? (It was to this timeline: http://camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1054) Not only is it informative, but it certainly looks like the external links could use some balance, with two links to the virulently anti-Israel Electronic Intifada, and only one to an Israeli perspective source. I put the link back in--if it for some reason it shouldn't be there, could someone please explain why, and explain wikipedia's exteral link policy. Thanks. 24.61.42.54 01:17, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't find it that informative; it appears to depict a timeline already covered by the article. If a few items aren't, they can be added, no? El_C 01:36, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Is so, the same would certainly apply to the two external links going to the Electronic Intifada Web site. 24.61.42.54 04:31, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I don't know what that is. El_C 05:05, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Death rumors

According to the World Tribune, Sharon was declared dead by 6 AM EST on Friday January 6th by physicians at Jerusalem's Hadassah Hospital.

A computed tomography scan taken on Friday morning showed little to no brain activity in Sharon. At that point, Sharon's son, Omri, called aides and senior officials to the hospital to prepare for an announcement of the prime minister's death.

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/06/front2453741.9118055557.html

The problem is, in this case what does "death" mean? Is it complete death, just brain death, or what?

Flypanam 00:56, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

It means clinical death, I think. All of this will likely become clear soon. Even though no one had said anything at this stage, it looks likely that they'll set up a commission to look into the health care he recieved, esp. why he wasn't forced to rest after the 1st stroke (see this). El_C 05:13, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I have changed the title of this section from "Sharon's Dead? Or Is He?" to "Death Rumors." Based on the news, it appears very much as if he is NOT dead. Even the worldtribune.com story linked-to above states both that he is, and is not, dead. Of course it could all be one huge conspiracy and he really did pass away on Friday but it is being covered up for some unfathomable reason. But I don't think so. Anyway, I changed the heading so nobody looks at it and immediately decides Sharon is dead, when all the current evidence suggests he is not. (For some reason I have this sudden desire to watch Monty Python and the Holy Grail.) 6SJ7 19:44, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
It has now occurred to me that if some people on Wikipedia do believe Sharon is dead and that a massive coverup is underway, that would just be par for the course. See the article, Apollo moon landing hoax accusations, which not only exists, it has a tag stating that it is a controversial topic! 6SJ7 04:07, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lead heavy

At the moment we have far too much detail in the lead section, and we should avoid this, even for subjects that are high-profile current events. I propose we move nearly all the information about the stroke from the lead section to the "Health problems" section, leaving only a sentence or two in the lead. It's tempting, but Wikipedia articles are meant to be encyclopedia articles, and we should resist the pressure to warp them into quasi news reports. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Matt Crypto (talk • contribs) 11:56, 9 January 2006 (UTC).

I have no objections, AnonMatt, but others may. Best wait for more input. El_C 13:18, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sabra and Shatila

I find this paragraph was better before and that additional information should only be written in the article dedicated to this. Alithien 15:31, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction

Do we really need three huge paragraphs in the introduction, taking up more than half the section, dedicated to his hospitalization? This wouldn't be a standard part of a biography. Put it this way: If, a month from now, he were well again, or if, a month from now, he were dead, would we want such a long section on his coma in the introduction? No. Just because it's a current event shouldn't give the event such huge prominence in the introduction — there should be a short reference to it, and then the information should be in the article's body. — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 15:46, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

You're right, but... You could put all of the details in the section later in the article regarding his health, and/or in the separate article about his health, but I suspect someone will just come along and add a lot of that stuff back into the intro. This (these) article(s) will not stabilize until after Sharon's situation does (for good or for bad) and the information can be added, rationally, into the right places in the article, and the "Illnesses" article can (probably) be merged back into this one. But that just isn't the case, yet. 6SJ7 00:22, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, if someone came along and added stuff back in the intro, then they could be reverted easily enough. Wikipedia has quite well-established conventions about the lead section. I don't see why we need warp a decent encyclopedia article into a hybrid news piece simply because the topic happens to be a high profile current event. Wikipedia should be kept current, of course, and often does make a good source for current events, but our primary goal is to write high-quality encyclopedia articles. — Matt Crypto 00:38, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Matt, I see you have made the changes. I think you have done a good job, let's hope it sticks. 6SJ7 01:02, 12 January 2006 (UTC) (I put this in the wrong place the first time.)
Yeah, I think this is much better. Asbestos 02:06, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
While I agree that this is what occurs, 6SJ7, I think it's particularly important that articles involved in current events should be at their most professional. I imagine that the Sharon article is getting a much greater surge of hits than it has in recent months, and that many people searching for information about Sharon who come to this article are relatively new to Wikipedia. That's why I think that professionality ought to be more strict for current events, not less. — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 00:57, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Qibya

Can whoever is claiming 99 killed at Qibya please provide a reputable source? I can find nothing claiming 99. Even harshly anti-Israel sources claim 69, for example: Electronic Intifada [7], al-Jazeera [8] , PalestineCampaign [9]

69 is the correct figure for Qibya itself, but two-thirds, not half, were women and children. --Ian Pitchford 10:22, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Medical Bloopers

[10]

Doctors have now discovered that Sharon suffers from cerebral amyloid angiopathy, which predisposes one to brain hemmorhages, and should not have been placed on long term anticoagulant medication following treatment of his earlier minor stroke.

Oops.

Hermitian 05:07, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ideology and Beliefs

Let's please remember this is an encyclopedia, not an avenue for hyperbole. The claims that Sharon "was never apologetic" and "had no moral qualms with keeping his country secure by any means necessary" are hyperbole. I've removed them.

I've also removed the following quote, pending which appears to be one of the many hoax quotes circulating around the internet. A nexis search reveals that neither AFP nor any other outlet reported Sharon saying the quote:

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." (Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.)

As such, I've removed the quote.

What's more, this certainly can't be said to represent Sharon's "ideology and beliefs", even from the time. In fact, on Nov. 17, one day before the alleged quote, Sharon spoke before the Israeli Knesset, saying:

"I know of no other nation that would give up land embodying its historical heritage, but the government had to decide whether we want to make a genuine, sincere effort to reach arrangements that may some day, God willing, bring peace between us and our neighbours. The government's answer was yes. I, too, decided to try to reach an arrangement with the Palestinians."

So again, let's all be careful to keep within Wikipedia guidelines, and, of course, to stay accurate. Thanks. Gni 19:22, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

you are absolutely right. i completely agree with you.

[edit] Passages Palgiarized from Fisk

I've noticed that some contributors have been copying passages from articles by Robert Fisk and pasting them into the body of the article (without quotes or citation, as if it was written by a contributor). That's alarming not as much because of the clear plagiarism, but because turning the wikipedia article into a Robert Fisk article hardly bodes well for neutrality.

This passage from a 4/17/01 Fisk article, for example, was pasted right into the Ideology & Beliefs section:

"He voted against the peace treaty with Egypt in 1979. He voted against a withdrawal from southern Lebanon in 1985. He opposed Israel's participation in the Madrid peace conference in 1991. He opposed the Knesset plenum vote on the Oslo agreement in 1993. He abstained on a vote for peace with Jordan in 1994. He voted against the Hebron agreement in 1997. He condemned the manner of Israel's retreat from Lebanon in 2000"

The passage about Lt. Grabowsky in the Kahan report, which has been removed due to inaccuracy (see Sabra Shatila discussion above), was similarly pasted directly from a Fisk article.

I hope all agree that there is, and must remain, an essential difference between a neutral Wikipedia encyclopedia entry and a partisan Fisk opinion column. Gni 21:31, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Alithien 09:12, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Ya...In my view, this kind of thing belongs as a polemical prooftext in the Robert Fisk article, not here. Tomertalk 06:17, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Weisglass Interview

The passage on Gaza evacuation states that "Dov Weisglass was quoted in Haaretz on October 6, 2004, as saying the purpose of disengagement was to destroy Palestinian aspirations for a state for years to come." Only a miniscule fraction of the Weisglass interview was published in the Oct. 6 Haaretz. The full interview was published Oct. 8, and it became clear that the Haaretz "teaser" from Oct. 6 distorted and took out of context Weisglass' words. In the full interview, Weissglas says nothing about "destroying Palestinian aspirations," and it is disingenuous and partisan POV to word it this way. He said in the interview that the gaza disengagement came after Israel, along with the U.S., "reached the sad conclusion that there is no one to talk to, no one to negotiate with" on the Palestinian side. "What's important is the formula that asserts that the eradication of terrorism precedes the start of the political process," Weissglas noted. This principle, he said, was the main achievement of the "road map" peace plan. According to Weissglas, Israel was pushed to the disengagement idea because the Palestinians were not fulfilling their obligations under the "road map". With the "road map" stalled, he explained, Sharon realized Israel would be pressured to negotiate even while the terrorism continued and that the principle calling for an immediate stop to Palestinian violence would be "annulled." He continued: "And with the annulment of that principle, Israel would find itself negotiating with terrorism. And because once such negotiations start it's very difficult to stop them, the result would be a Palestinian state with terrorism ... The disengagement plan is the preservative of the sequence principle. It is the bottle of formaldehyde within which you place the president's formula so that it will be preserved for a very lengthy period. The disengagement is actually formaldehyde." Gni 16:50, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Scheinermann

I'm surprised the article doesn't mention when or why Sharon changed his name from "Ariel Scheinermann" to "Ariel Sharon". It really should be in the article. Mike Dillon 19:48, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

It is very common for Jews to change their name to a Hebrew one when they immigrate to Israel.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 03:13, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
This is very tue, however Sharon was born during the British Mandate in today's Israel. In addition to the immigration event, people also changed names at later stages, especially in the public service. In government agencies there were expectations, and possibly also requirements, of anyone from certain levels of management and command to change names. gidonb 04:09, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External link removed

Can someone please justify the removal of the external link to the article 'Ariel Sharon: an Israeli Caligula'? (http://www.obelus.org/index.php?artID=15) Since this essay is a comprehensive chronology of Sharon's war crimes, fully annotated, and with most of the sources being themsleves Israeli, I can't see how it could be considered unsuitable: on the contrary, it does prompt one to suspect that there are other motives for its removal. Which why I am asking for an explanation.

Give me a break, Comparing a mainstream politician to Caligula, not NPOV buddy.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 03:11, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Overview

I don't think that Qibya events worth being included in overview. It's balanced enough, since sentences saying about Israel's "great strugles" doesn't mentioned any details, whereas "sabra massacre" is far from being NPOV. --tasc 11:51, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I think that killing 69 civilians would be one of the most important events in a person's life. Imagine an article about German Chancellor Angela Merkel. If she had killed 69 Jews before becoming Chancellor, would it be worth mentioning in the introduction of her article?
So, than perhaps, military achivments should be highlighted as well, don't ya think? And how would than an overview look like? --tasc 12:03, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
His military achievements are already addressed. "Many Israelis consider him a war hero who helped defend the country during some of its greatest struggles" --83
Well, good. Then it should say: "Many anti Zionists consider him a war criminal, guilty in death of dozens of people", isn't it an equivalent? --tasc 12:20, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
When the criticism of Ariel Sharon is referred, it is misleading to present it like he is only criticized for the Sabra and Shatila massacres, when he in fact is criticized for a lot more, both the Quibya massacre and his actions as prime minister. --83
and than, we definitely should add critisims from Israeli rightists. They do also consider him a traitor. --tasc 12:03, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
If there is more criticism, add it if it is notable. The criticism for war crimes is very notable (compare: newspaper reports on Ariel Sharon in e.g. Europe and the Arab world). --83
Notable == loud? I thought an NPOV is a value, not a propaganda. --tasc 12:20, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Health Problems or Incapacitation??

I believe the term "Incapacitation" does not accurately reflect the overall health ordeals Sharon has gone through. His health problems did not begin with his being comatose. I tried changing article title to "Health Problems and Subsequent Incapacitation" but it has been reversed to "Incapacitation". I'd say we should keep his illness a very brief memo on the page and link readers directly to his "Illnesses" page. Shiranweber 18:59, 24 February 2006 (UTC)Shiranweber

His previous health problems, whatever they were, were not politically important. He was after all a very overweight man in his 70s so he was bound to have some health problems, but so what? His stroke and subsequent incapacitation is what is politically important. In any case I intend completely rewriting this extremely poor article as soon as I get time and find some references. Adam 00:29, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

  • I agree that his incapacitation should surely be the focus of that section of the article, as that is what is politically significant.--Pharos 09:09, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sharon as controversial or not, inside Israel

Recently it has been argued that "Sharon is not particulary controversial inside Israel anymore".

  • Sharon has been a highly controversial figure, both in and outside Israel.

has been changed to

  • Sharon has been a highly controversial figure. Today his critics are mostly outside of Israel, but in the past he has been very controversial there as well.

Sharon is one of the most hawkish PMs ever, extremely controversial, and heavily criticized to this day inside Israel. I find this edit to be unsupported. However, if there is a reasonable number of citations from reputable scholarly or journalistic sources that generally agree that he is "not particulary controversial inside Israel anymore" then I would be very interested to read them, and will agree to the edit.--AladdinSE 11:03, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I think the new text is simply wrong. Ignoring the suppression of criticism that occurred when he went into a coma, he is more controversial now than ever. The Gaza disengagement and surrounding events made him controversial amongst the right wing as well, whereas it used to be only amonst the left wing. --Zero 11:16, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Some will claim he is controversial, some will claim he is not. Depends on one's POV. Why do we need such a statement at all? gidonb 18:12, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

"Controversial" is a meaningless POV word, and it's uncited here. The whole phrase should go, it adds nothing. Jayjg (talk) 18:14, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I would support removing the entire phrase. What I meant to show, though in that edit I did it poorly, was that at the time of his coma, sharon was mroe popular than ever, it was wrong that I said he wasn't controversial because he clearly was, especially becasue of the disengagment plan, but he still had the support of a large majority of the population, and his party (that some said was his personal vehicle) is expected to gain a plurality on what some say is Sharon's persona.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 00:03, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
It is not meaningless. Areil Sharon is highly controversial. He attracts a great deal of passionate support and criticism, and always has. Sharon does happen to attract polarized opinions about himself and his policies. It is just flat out false to claim that he is no longer so since falling into a coma. However, if you really dispute that he is controversial and want citation, I understand, though it might seem strange to a reader that such a widely held view seems to require citation. More importantly, it's Moshe's edit that "Today his critics are mostly outside of Israel" which is false, and unsupported by citation. Also, Moshe's other changes and citations do not match. The BBC source he used does not say that at the time of his stroke Sharon enjoyed support "from most areas of the political spectrum" or that "Kadima is expected to gain a plurality in the 2006 national elections". I replaced one of the BBC sources with another that directly mentions what Kadima is expected to accomplish, and accurately correlated the information about support for Sharon at the time of the stroke, to the source. --AladdinSE 00:35, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I had composed the above reply to Jayjg's last post, and thought that I saved it before I made this edit to the article, but it wasn't saved because the page had been altered while I was writing. It doesn't signify, since Moshe has accepted the rewording and source changes/correlation re support for Sharon and expectations of Kadima, and since there is no longer a claim that he is no longer much criticized in Israel, which was my principal objection, I find the removal of the "controversial" description to be adequate.--AladdinSE 00:35, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Where did I say that he is no longer criticized since his coma? also I already changed the reference that his critics are mostly outisde of Israel long before you made this response so I don't quote understand the purpse of bringing it up again. And the three sources I added are all pointed to the conclusion that he had support from most areas of the political spectrum, but anyways that passage has been changed also. The reason that the sources seemd to point to the wrong passages was becasue the order of words got all changed around.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 00:43, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I didn't say that you said "he is no longer criticized since his coma". I said that you claimed that such criticism is mostly NOT in Israel, which is false. Here [11] you said "Today his critics are mostly outside of Israel". And here [12] you said "today however he is not as controversial in Israel as he once was", also not accurate and not supported by the source you inserted. None of the sources you cited 'pointed to the conclusion' that "he had support from most areas of the political spectrum". No sources 'pointed to the wrong passages'. My rewording was much more accurate, and the alternate BBC source I used was much more germane. Happily, you have accepted those changes.

Yes, you did change the reference re critics outside Israel, but hardly "long before my response". We were actually working at the same time. The reason I have inserted this comment, which was not saved due to simultaneous editing, was to show and explain that I did in fact contribute to Talk and explain my reasons for this edit. I was not bringing anything up again, I was inserting a comment that failed to save, because this comment was referenced in my edit summary. I did not want there to be a "see Talk" reference in one of my edit summaries with no corresponding Talk entries, that is all. --AladdinSE 01:08, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Needless to say I completley disagree with pretty much everything you just wrote, however I see no reason to continue arguing about this since it has been resolved.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 01:13, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Amen.--AladdinSE 01:16, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Butcher of Beirut", revisited

Please see: Talk:Ariel Sharon/Archive 2#Totally Disputed and why. --AladdinSE 11:08, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I think this phrase is not encyclopedic enough for the introduction. It belongs in the Beirut-related part of the article. --Zero 11:16, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the Talk discussion and consensus regarding this issue did not discuss location in the article, only deletion or inclusion. Inclusion (but with citation) prevailed. Moshe's initial edit deleted it altogether, but I have no objection to moving it, sources and all. Looking back, I would not have objected to it being moved a year ago; but as I said, back then, that was not the issue. --AladdinSE 11:44, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

As I said back then, it's certainly not encyclopedic, and has no place here, particularly in the introduction. Jayjg (talk) 17:18, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

We disagree, as we did a year ago, as to it being unencyclopedic, nevertheless after much discussion you agreed then to let it be. Happily, although we still disagree as to the premise of viability, we seem to have arrived at a consensus to place it in the Sabra and Chatila massacre section, and there's an end. At least, LOL, until a year from now when someone tries to remove it again.--AladdinSE 01:14, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't think we reached any kind of consensus, just somewhat of a stop-gap measure until we do.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 01:31, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Consensus does not mean that everyone is in total agreement. It means a course of action is developed, accepted and ultimately not challenged by the participants in the discussion. You were the first to move the material to the Sabra & Shatela massacre section, you will not be able to come back later and claim there was no consensus. --AladdinSE 00:11, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Elections

If the elections formally ended his time in parliament, don't they also formally end his tenure as PM? PMA 04:43, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Well if doesn't to either one for a couple of days until a new government is formed.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 04:47, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I understand. Also in the infoboxes should we list that de jure date only or both it and the de facto date he ceased to be PM (4 January when he had the stroke)? PMA 04:50, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Correction required on date

Rabin became chief of staff in 1964. This should be corrected taking into account the context of the sentence by someone with access to the information it contains.

Quote: "When Yitzhak Rabin (who within a few years became associated with the Labor Party) became Chief of Staff in 1962, however, Sharon began again to rise rapidly in the ranks, occupying the positions of Infantry School Commander and Head of Army Training Branch, eventually achieving the rank of Major General (Aluf)."

[edit] length of hospital mistake?

"Sharon was hospitalised on December 18, 2005 after reportedly suffering a minor ischemic stroke. Sharon spent four days in hospital, and was released on December 20" someone needs to some math! 20-18!=4 --130.216.191.184 00:02, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Illnesses of Ariel Sharon

i added a merge template on that page. there seems little reason for the article to exist outside of Ariel Sharon. It certainly has no permanent encyclopedic value. It's not as though his illness is either out of the ordinary for people his age or significant to his life. [anon user]

The Illnesses of Ariel Sharon is covering a current event, it should remain there until further developments. Joncnunn 20:57, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

That's completely irrelevant. Current events only get their own articles if they are encyclopedic. 50 years from now will Sharon's illness be any more significant than anyone elses? If Sharon had a rare illness of some type, having its own article would make since. Sharon is an obese old guy who had strokes. That's not notable. You don't make articles that have no long term significance. The information should be merged into this article, where it belongs. --MateoP 13:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

It was newsworthy while Sharon was PM. Now that he's not the situation is really no different than that of any other ailing ex-leader (eg Gerald Ford who is in declining health) so I don't think the spin-off article is warranted any longerHomey 21:01, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree, this article should be merged ASAP if no one objects to it -- Snailwalker | talk 12:09, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Miscreants

Can someone change the term "miscreants" in relation to destroying the Gaza synagogues after the Israeli withdrawal. It makes it seem like some kids hanging out when in reality it was Palestinians with hatred for Jews. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mister Nobody (talk • contribs) .

[edit] Lebanon Invasion

While the Sabra and Shatila massacre was undoubtedly a defining moment in Sharon’s history, I find that the article focuses too much on it while neglecting his vital role as the originator and architect of the Israeli invasion to Lebanon in 1982 (during which the massacre took place). His part in the Lebanon war was arguably the most significant thing he did in his career. This is not even mentioned in the article. Any thoughts? Amirig 22:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category:People charged with war crimes

There seems to be some dispute over if we should have this article in the category Category:People charged with war crimes or not. As per WP:BLP we should be carefull about such things. He have indeed been charged with war crimes as it says in the article. // Liftarn

Charged by whom? Pecher Talk 08:55, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Relatives of the victims started procedings in Belgium as it says in the article. // Liftarn
People can only be called "charged" with a crime when they have been formally indicted by a court or another body, which has the legal right to issue indictments. This is not the case here. Pecher Talk 09:15, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Far enough. According to WP:BLP we should be carefull not to add controversial categories without solid sources. Especially for living persons. // Liftarn
Is "charged" the same as "indicted"? And I thought the reason for being careful about living people is they might feel bad or they might sue...? Not that I have any strong opinion here, just putting my two cents in... DanielCristofani 07:00, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
In an encyclopedia I think we need to be "careful" about accusations that someone has been charged with a crime regardless of whether the person is living, or might feel bad or might sue. 6SJ7 16:00, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

No comment on the Category:People charged with war crimes, but I did remove Catgegory:Genocide as violating WP:OR, WP:RS, and WP:BLP. --Elliskev 12:46, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not called a coma after 6 weeks

The article correctly notes that Sharon is now in a PVS persistent vegetative state "a condition of patients with severe brain damage in whom coma has progressed to a state of wakefulness without detectable awareness." This means that Sharon should not be described as now being in a coma. We have the following three lines that therefore need revision:

However, now comatose, Sharon's chances for recovery are estimated as "very low".

doctors were quick to note that that was not unusual with comatose patients.

Sharon's doctors did not expect him to emerge from his coma in the foreseeable future

Comments or suggestions? Rabbi-m 04:19, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Not necessarily, a coma is a coma. A PVS is when a patient awakes from a coma but has no perception of their surroundings. Is there an official medical verdict on this available so we can clear this up?
According to http://www.ad.nl/buitenland/article1630890.ece he was still being in comma on September 2, 2007. The article notes that the condoleances registers are ready to be presented for signing for a year and a half. Generally, use Google news and search for Ariel Sharon. Tgeorgescu 19:57, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Recently, I read in the papers, listened to TV news journal and I saw a documentary on electrodes being implanted in the brain ("brain stimulator"). Someone who was in comma for past 18 years has recovered awareness, and he can move a little (18 years is a long time to stay in bed, so his muscles are not trained to move). See e.g., http://www.mywire.com/pubs/PeoplesDailyChina/2007/08/02/4136217?&pbl=15 (I guess it was 6 years, in the news I heard, it was 18 years...) Tgeorgescu 19:57, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
See also: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/78524.php and http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v448/n7153/abs/nature06041.html Tgeorgescu 20:01, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Censorship

Why there is no mention in the article of the infamous Sharon remark to Perez: don't worry about US pressure, we jewish people control America? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.70.32.136 (talk • contribs) .

This user seems to be right. BhaiSaab talk 01:10, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
BhaiSaab, which source are you referring to? There's talk about this on the Ouze Merham page, if you do indeed find a source that confirms it, not just a bunch of search results, you may want to update that, too. CarlosCoppola 07:00, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
This hoax is also discussed on the CNI page. It's amazing how many people have fallen for it. Precis 09:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Text direction

I keep looking at the source of the article and can't figure out how they got the text direction correct for the right-to-left Hebrew text amidst the left-to-right English text (look at the article on Paul Ben-Haim, at least two other people have tried to correct it and have failed). I looked in the history, but there are way too many edits to look through. Can anyone tell me how to do this? Robert Happelberg 22:19, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] date of birth

The date of birth in this article is: february 27 while in the wikipedia 'list of dates' Sharon's birth is mentioned under february 26. Anyone who can confirm one of both, please update and delete this discussion-item

the hebrew wikipedia says the 26th. Jon513 15:47, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Coincidence?

"Moshe Dayan was born in a kibbutz ("collective farm"), Degania Alef ("Degania A"), Palestine, near the Kinneret (Sea of Galilee). His parents were Shmuel and Devorah who were Jewish immigrants from Russia, and he was the first child born in the newly established community. At age 14, he joined the Haganah, the underground Jewish militant group which was at a very early stage in its history. He was greatly influenced by the military teachings of the English pro-Zionist officer Orde Wingate when Dayan was a sergeant prior to World War II."

So Sharon and Dayan have the same named parents, both come from Russia and both joined Haganah at 14? I do not know anything about this and just wanted it to bring it to the attention of someone who might --Frup 08:54, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External link

On October 14, 88.153.34.93 added an external link to a site completely devoted to Sharon : http://www.ariel-sharon-life-story.com/. The site contains a lot of information, but it is impossible to know who wrote it and it contains no e-mail adress to join the webmaster. If someone finds out who the author is or where the text come from, please let me know. --Scroteau96 01:07, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name change to Sharon

It's been brought up twice before in this talk page, but I thought third time's the charm. Would someone knowledgeable about the subject please add to the article a brief (sourced) explanation of when and why he changed his name to Sharon, and the meaning of the name? Thanks. Robert K S 16:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

It was common practice in the early 50s for all gov't officials and sr. army officers to change their names which had meaning in European languages to Israeli/Hebrew names that either sounded like their previous name, or had the same meaning, as part of the process of "nation building". Sharon is named for the coastal plain north of Tel Aviv. Isarig 16:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
That answers the why, now if we can get the when and the sourcing... Robert K S 19:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't think this is particularly noteworthy. Of all the articles about Israeli political figures who changed their name, I doubt there are more than a few that mention the timing. I don't see any reason to single out Ariel Sharon, and I also don't see any value in delving into the details of everybody's name change. 6SJ7 04:10, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Death or continued incapacitation?

The infobox says he died "October 15, 2006", yet then at "Incapacitation" it says "On November 6, 2006, it was reported that Sharon has been moved out of an intensive care unit after treatment for a heart infection." This implies he is not dead. If he is still in a coma, then it should not say he died "October 15, 2006". Have I missed something? Jpeob 02:03, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out; others had reverted some vandalism but didn't go back far enough, and missed that (and another piece of vandalism as well.) The fictitious "death date" for Sharon was just added a few hours ago. I just reverted back to the last vandalism-free version. 6SJ7 03:57, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Misquotes

I believe the amount of misquotes attributed to Sharon deserves a mention in the article, or at least Wikiquote. [13]

HELLO

Where does it say that how Ariel Sharon had order to build a illegal wall ON the Palestine occupied territory??? This article MUST be created by a Jew, full of personal and religious biases, homie be careful of concealing the truth, Ou shall stand in front of GOD one day.

------------- ----------------- ----------

It seems like the guy above is an arab muslim, right? Now let us not get into any criticism, and please do not throw in islam or any other religion into it. People think differently and their opinions will always be influenced by circumstances such as nationality or culture. It is almost impossible to formulate neutral, facts-based conclusions. If you feel like this article is biased, just write down your own one. It's called freedom of speech. It's nothing personal, buddy, just take it easy.

[edit] Ariel Sharon: the Hitler of Israel, a more apropo title

This vegetable oaf has done nothing but cause murder and mayhem. Pat Buchanan has exposed the fraud that Sharon was. One has to wonder why Sharon's eleven year old son shot himself, an accident or suicide? or did the son discover what a horrendous butcher his father was? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Paleocon (talk • contribs) 03:55, 10 April 2007 (UTC).

Please research more about Sabra and Shatila Massacre, information is not accurate

Uh...murder and mayhem? Okayyy...just because Pat Buchanan is anti-Israel doesn't mean he's right, and neither are you, for that matter. Why don't you stick to facts, and stop calling someone names, especially when they are older and ill. Charming!!

[edit] Section: Prime Minister

This section needs major work. It seems like a blurb about him going to al-Aqsa in 2000 (before he was PM), something about French antisemitism and other trivia bunched together with a picture. It doesnt talk about his accomplishment during his prime ministership or anything very relevant. I believe a rewrite is in order. Jeztah 02:14, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

The statement that Sharon was the first Israeli OP.M. who was not of Likud or Labour in incorrect.

1948-53 David Ben-Gurion Mapai 1953-55 M. Sharett Mapai 1955-63 David Ben-Gurion Mapai 1963-69 Levi Eshkol Mapai/Labor

David S Sinclair, Montreal, 28 Jan 2007

Mapai eventually became the Labour party. nadav (talk) 05:51, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

No delete option? Wiki- has just met its match. Fakirs.


[edit] References need fixing

The references in this article need fixing as the references section at the bottom of the page shows two references numbered 14. Consequentially all subsequent references are displaying the incorrect number in the reference section. e.g. the 15th reference in the page (which is correctly numbered 15 in the text) shows in the references section as the second 14. This is having a knock on effect with all subsequent references with these references all showing up as one number less than they should be. e.g. if you click on the up arrow next to the reference labeled 24 in the references section it takes you to a reference in the text labeled 23. Sorry for the verbose description. I don't know how to fix this problem so I will have to leave to someone else to do. Morgan Leigh 04:41, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Just go ahead... nobody is stopping you! ;) --Maxl 18:49, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Picture of Sharon in the Six-Day War?

Does anyone else think it would be appropriate to have a picture of Sharon during the Six-Day War. I think it would contribute greatly to the article. --The monkeyhate 20:47, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good Article Review

I don't believe this article meets the GA criteria, so I've raised the matter here. Giggy Talk | Review 04:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Delisted, for reasons mentioned at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Good_article_review/Archive_26#Ariel_Sharon. Nja247 (talk • contribs) 20:56, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ariel Sharon in popular culture

How he is often drawn in political cartoons as morbidly obese, etc.--Mostargue 19:14, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ariel_Sharon"
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