Talk:Massachusetts Institute of Technology

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[edit] Unsourced material

"Drinking from a fire hose" is now sourced.

(often expanded with the explanatory "you get hosed and your parents get soaked") or "academic boot camp."

There's no source for "you get hosed and your parents get soaked" and I wonder whether this has ever been in wide use or is just a joking backward folk-etymology. "Academic boot camp" sounds plausible but I'd like to see a source. I had the impression that these characterizations were supposed to be less true now than in the past, but perhaps that's just MIT administration propaganda?

I've certainly heard "you get hosed and your parents get soaked". MIT is definitely still a firehose. -- Beland 23:45, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request for Feedback

I had posted a Requests for feedback earlier in the month for comments on length and boosterism. This is in anticipation of my proposed request for a peer review on December 1. Please go read the comments and make changes. Madcoverboy 15:34, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yikes! Wildly exaggerated research accomplishments

The factual accuracy of this article is disputed.
Please see the relevant discussion on the talk page.

The syllogistic reasoning in this section seems to be:

  • person A had some connection of some kind with MIT
  • person A was involved, perhaps with others, in important work in field B, at some time before, during, or after the MIT connection
  • ERGO
  • MIT has invented, substantially developed, or is well known for research in field B.

"In electronics, transistors, magnetic core memory, radar, single electron transistors, and inertial guidance controls were invented or substantially developed by MIT researchers."

Transistors? WTF? They were developed at Bell Labs. Shockley was never an "MIT researcher." I may be wrong but I don't associate MIT particularly closely with the development of solid-state electronics. That is, the development of the devices themselves (as opposed to the application of the devices e.g. in the TX-2 computer...) (I removed this).

"Claude E. Shannon developed much of modern information theory and digital circuit design theory." Well, he did develop information theory almost single-handedly. It's a curious example of an extremely important and substantial body of work that sprung full-grown like Athena from one person's brain, but has had relatively little added to it by anyone else. But digital circuit theory? He is responsible for making the connection between digital circuits and Boolean algebra, but he surely did not develop "much of" modern digital circuit design theory. (I fixed this).

The more I look at this section, the more problems I see.

Some of the claims are technically true because of the weasel-worded phrase "invented or substantially developed," but, gee. Magnetic core memory had two important inventors; it seems to me to be quite misleading to connect it with Jay Forrester (coincident-current) but omit An Wang (rewrite-after-read cycle). And quite a lot of magnetic core development happened after Whirlwind outside of MIT.

Radar? Again, technically true because of that weaselly phrase "invented or substantially developed," since the radiation lab made important contributions to the wartime development of radar, but, gee, they wouldn't have gotten too far without the cavity magnetron developed at the University of Birmingham. It's like saying Cal Tech "invented or substantially developed" jet propulsion.

I don't have time to look through this now, but it looks very, very loose and sloppy to me, with all sorts of, yes, important connections being puffed up to look far more important than they are. Tim Berners Lee established the W3C at MIT in 1994? Well, yeah, OK, but he invented the Web at CERN, not at MIT.

Hoo hah: "MIT biologists have also been recognized for their discoveries and advances in ... protein synthesis" links to Har Gobind Khorana. But he didn't go to MIT until after he won the Nobel Prize. He was at the Enzyme Institute at the University of Wisconsin when he received it, but I think the work for which he received the prize was actually done at Vancouver. Not sure, but certainly not MIT.

The computer science stuff doesn't look bad but that's probably just because I don't know enough about computer science. "MIT faculty and researchers made fundamental contributions to cybernetics, artificial intelligence, computer languages, and public-key cryptography." Cybernetics? Well, since Norbert Wiener literally wrote the book (and almost nobody else in academics used the word subsequently, check. Artificial intelligence? Check (SAIL being separate but equal?).

Wait... Computer languages... hmmm... not so sure. "Made fundamental contributions," yeah, OK, LISP (Scheme) and COMIT in particular, but I'm not sure "computer languages R MIT." What come to mind as really fundamental contributions in computer languages? COBOL, FORTRAN, LISP, ALGOL, PASCAL, C, I think.

Public-key cryptography? Uh-oh. Here we go again. Only the "R" in "RSA" has a strong MIT connection. And did he do the work there? Not sure, couldn't find out quickly. And weren't Diffie and Hellman the real originators? Hmmm... looks like Diffie was working for industry... can't tell quickly about Hellman. I think "fundamental contributions to public-key cryptography" is another example of something literally true but exaggerated.

Anyone want to help figuring out what to do with this? I'm tempted to slap fact tags on everything in this section from start to finish, since many of them don't check out or aren't what they seem, and you can't tell which are which by looking at them.

I'm going to come back to this when I've cooled down, but I'm really beginning to think the only way to fix this section is blow it away and start fresh, insisting on clear relationships being shown to MIT.

The section should describe only fields in which it can be shown that MIT has a demonstrable strength as an institution. A. R. Gurney may be on the faculty, but that doesn't in itself warrant saying that MIT has made accomplishments in drama. Dpbsmith (talk) 21:32, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

    • I will respond to these criticisms as I am the original author as well as only person who has ever really edited this section. My intent in this section was to delineate specific and notable accomplishments of people with a substantial MIT affiliation. My sources were some of the information in the article before, wiki lists like Nobel Laureates or MacArthur fellows, the MIT firsts page, and the MIT admissions page. While MIT has many notable accomplishments worth mentioning, the university featured articles I used as models (Cornell, Duke, UMichigan) for editing this page described research with either too much depth (a whole paragraph on Cornell and the Mars Lander) or not at all (UMichigan cites contributions with no link/cite to say what it is nor who is responsible for them). Thus, this section represents my attempt to convey both the breadth of accomplishments while keeping it concise and organized. My redirect-linking style is intended to connect the listed concept to a specific person's contributions, not to represent that the concept/technology was wholly developed at MIT. To that extent, while I understand how it is misleading in a way, it is also a means of establishing a direct relationship to MIT while avoiding a torrent of cites. Your criticism that the section includes a number of weasel words is likewise well-founded, but these are artifacts of my own attempts to summarize and list the various topics and should be removed/edited. The section is far from perfect and could certainly be toned up, however, although I don't know how making a clean break would necessarily improve the section.Madcoverboy 07:30, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] McCormick Hall

Right now the article states that: "Female students, however, remained a tiny minority (numbered in dozens) prior to the completion of the first women's dormitory, McCormick Hall, in 1964."

This is incorrect. McCormick Hall was finished in January of 68. The hall is made up of two towers and it is likely that the first tower was completed in 1964 and that is where that date came from. I only know this because my mother was a freshman in 67-68 and I didn't want to change it based on just that. Does anyone have a source that could be cited to justify the change? I know it's minor thing but, well, I'm a sucker for dates. Redtizzy 20:05, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Y Done Put in two references for good measure. Madcoverboy 05:16, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV of crosslinking

There may be possible NPOV and Weasel word issues with the new text I've added about controversies regarding Japan. Specifically, crosslinking "scapegoat" for "accused" and "business cycle" for "struggling" — but I believe I can make cases for either of these should anyone have a problem. I only bring it up now to allay any concerns that it is an act of vandalism or sloppy editing. More broadly, does anyone have an issue of the extent of crosslinking (linking to an article with greater contextual specificity, say Late 1980s recession instead of recession but nevertheless having the link appear as recession) in the article) currently in the article, especially in the research accomplishments? Madcoverboy 03:01, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Schools and Colleges

Why isn't there a complete organized listing for all of the schools and their respective departments. Different ones are hinted at in the text, but I see nothing that formally introduces all of them. Am I missing something here? Hanjabba 21:42, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

  • They were removed per concerns (WP:NOT) that they didn't contribute meaningfully to the article, interrupted the flow of text, and served only as a mirror. I disagree with many of these points, but really, I'm not going to fight tooth-and-nail for them.Madcoverboy 23:19, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
  • While I'm far from being a expert on Wiki policy, it seems like leaving out information as basic as this is like writing an article about the US and leaving out a listing of all the states. The article would just be too imcomplete to be considered adequate. In addition, every university article that I've looked at has a school and/or department breakdown.

Hanjabba 18:15, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

  • They are easily accessible from a subarticle; this article is already too long to put it back here. -- Beland 00:47, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] MIT Article community

Please help improve this article by expanding it.
Further information might be found on the talk page or at requests for expansion.
This article has been tagged since April 2007.
The references in this article would be clearer with a different and/or consistent style of citation, footnoting or external linking.

On a bitter aside, I was asked to review Ohio Wesleyan University for FA-status and found it to be an exercise in futility as me and one or two other editors found it completely unreadable, devoid of meaning, and cited to excess, yet it was just promoted today to FA-status largely based on support from (what I perceive to be) affiliated fanboy/sockpuppets and unaffiliated editors who contributed in a significant capacity. I guess I'm just envious that they have a viable community contributing there that was able to ride roughshod over legitimate concerns, whereas there is basically no community here at the MIT page. I still objectively believe MIT's article to be of a far higher quality than many FAs, I think too many editors suffer from prestigious-institution guilt or envy, depending upon which side of the aisle they sit. Basically, I'm tired of working by myself — this article has broken me like it has broken several other editors before me. I've directed my editing energies elsewhere (United States technological and industrial history and History of MIT) for now but I will still be around to revert vandals. Things that still need to get done around here:

  • Standardize cite formatting and expand cites as there are still many statements in need of a cite.
  • Re-do Research accomplishments into a coherent narrative, rather than a list of feats in sentence form.
  • Reference external links so that they're not inline.
  • Expand/fix student activities as it's just (no pun intended) a hack right now.
  • Expand the affiliated sub/sister pages (History of MIT (this one I will still work on), Architecture of MIT, Student life and culture at MIT)

Good luck and good hunting. I'll be around if this page ever lightens back up. Madcoverboy 23:19, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

  • "Just when I thought that I was out they pull me back in." :) Well there's no they – just me, my anal-retentive perfectionism, and the vandals. Comments on the recent copy-editing revisions are welcome. Madcoverboy 22:19, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
    • I've only ever worked on copyediting before, save for restructuring the MIT template, but as a current student I'd be happy to contribute if possible to anything I'm remotely knowledgeable about. I'd love to see a bigger community here too, and I definitely think you're right about editors suffering from "prestigious-institution guilt or envy". A few weeks ago I updated a wiki page on a hack someplace to point out the substantial differences between Harvey Mudd's and MIT's reappropriation of the Caltech Cannon (such as the added 3,000 miles of distance?), and promptly was insulted by a horde of rabid Harvey Mudd people saying I was "trying to make MIT sound more impressive than it is". Someone even said "get over yourself, Caltech is better than MIT, period." I was... just a little scared by that, to say the least, as I'd never made any sort of implications to the contrary, and I don't understand this whole guilt/envy issue you referenced (Caltech can parade around on Wikipedia outright claiming to be better than everyone, but if MIT even makes claims to being an excellently-regarded school it gets shot down as NPOV?)... this is a roundabout way of saying I want to help and I'm not going to be a victim of the prestigious-institution guilt/envy syndrome. Let me know if you want me and what I can do! int3gr4te 10:43, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
      • I made several basic edits on the main page for now. The alumni page needs some formatting/consistency work, as well as dates and degrees for most of the people on it. Shall I undertake that next? :) int3gr4te 11:42, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rankings in lead

Please keep all rankings confined to the "Rankings" section. It is inappropriate to put a ranking in the lead, especially the second sentance, when the fact is only repeated later and other facts demonstrate MIT's excellence. MIT is widely acknowledged to be "elite", "prestigious", "exclusive", "the best in x" -- the fact that other schools brand themselves as the "MIT of England," the "MIT of India," etc. is a testamant to that. Adding a ranking by a newspaper does nothing to convey encylopaedic knowledge other than one organization's POV assertion that "MIT is a better or worse than these other schools." Despite the non-NPOV of rankings, they inevitably crop back up into university articles, so a reasonable compromise is to keep them confined to one section. An obsession with rankings belies an underlying lack of confidence in the strength of one's own programs on their own merits. Madcoverboy 21:43, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] MIT undergraduate acceptance rates

I am tempted to revert the newly added table "MIT Undergraduate Acceptance Rates" on the basis that it seems to be Soapboxing about how it is more difficult for a man to get into MIT than a woman. Admissions in the context of affirmative action vs. meritocracy and such is a touchy subject and broaching the topic with this ostensibly irrefutable data demeans its inherent complexities (the chart doesn't reveal that more men apply and are admitted in greater numbers). I suspect that breaking admissions numbers down by race/ethnicity would reveal similar disparities between "underrepresented minorities" and whites/asians/indians. Moreover, I don't know what the chart adds in the context of this section. However, I don't want to be accused of white-washing the page as this is a topic that should certainly be discussed either on this page or used as an example elsewhere. Madcoverboy 06:54, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it's rather interesting, actually. It seems pretty neutral to me; both sides in the affirmative action debate could read something into it. -- Beland 00:47, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I reverted the POV & original research edits made by IP 148.87.1.172 (registered to Oracle). This is the same IP that created the list about differing male/female admits. Given the anonymous user's previous history of vandalism (on other pages) and repeated attempts to revise topics only relating to women at MIT, it seems more and more to be soapboxing. If you have an axe to grind, wikipedia is not the place for it.Madcoverboy 19:16, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article length

This article is currently 76K, which is about twice as long as it should be. I would recommending moving some material out to subarticles:

  • "Challenges and controversies" could be chopped by a paragraph or two by moving recent but minor events to the subarticle.
  • Cut the "Campus" section in half
  • Combine parts of the "Academics" and "Faculty and research" sections and spin off a "Research at MIT" subarticle?
  • Cut "Student life and culture" by about 2/3rds
  • Cut the "Notable alumni" section down to 1 paragraph

-- Beland 00:47, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

    • This topic of article size comes up often. I would point out that other university FAs are similarly large: Cornell 83kb, Ohio Wesleyan 81kb, Duke 75kb, IIT 58kb, UMichigan 55kb, Michigan State 54kb. While I understand the motivation to limit article size on the grounds that long articles become unreadable/indigestible, parceling content into subarticles to meet a (now) arbitrary cap leads to a similar predicament. I don't see how some of the sections could sustain the severe cuts you recommend without losing some meaning (relative to topics one would expect to see in an article providing an overview of MIT). However, there is certainly some fat, lists, and cruft that can be trimmed from some sections. I'm making a pass now to trim down Campus, Student life, and Alumni -- let me know what you think. Madcoverboy 02:33, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
      • The article length is fine. Where does that "twice as long as it should be" come from? The 32K limit is ancient history based on browser limitations that no longer apply. Dpbsmith (talk) 12:45, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
    • The article DOES load a bit slowly on the broadband link my cable company provides me at home. It wouldn't hurt to take advantage of the sub-articles. I would argue that most of the controversies don't really belong in the main article. History is in 3 places, top of the article, the History section, and the sub-article. Could we use section-linking to allow topics to be succinctly menitoned in the main article and fully developed in subarticles without forcing readers to do searching through the sub-articles? DCDuring 11:47, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Largest academic buildings in the world at the time

Yeah, well, could be, but I'd like to know the source. And what counts as a single building. If you count the complex surrounding the Great Court Killian Court as one building, it's pretty big, all right. But if you count it as nine, each of them is substantial... but really, "largest in the world?" I wonder. Dpbsmith (talk) 12:45, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes. This should be cited. —mako (talk•contribs) 17:36, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
OK, I'm snipping the claim that the new Cambridge campus was built
with the largest academic buildings in the world at the time
Here's why. I can't find anything definite one way or the other, but looking from some online maps of the (old) Bodleian Library at Oxford it looks pretty big, somewhere in the rough neighborhood of 250'x150' . It looks to me as if it would fit handily into Killian Court, leaving a broad swath of green around it, but it looks larger than any of the individual buildings in the Maclaurin complex. If anyone can find any actual dimensions, by all means lets have them. No, I don't have any idea what the height or cubic capacity of the Bodleian Library would be. No, they don't hold classes in it. But I think it certainly counts as an "academic building."
And I only picked the Bodleian because it was the only thing that came to mind as a, big; b, older than MIT's Cambridge campus; and c, academic. There's no reason to think it's the biggest.
As I say, I'm sure there's a basis for the claim, but I want to know "who said so" and exactly what the basis for the claim was. It might have been a highly qualified claim. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:27, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Featured list nomination

List of Institute Professors has been a Featured list candidate for over 2 weeks with no clear consensus reached. Please go and comment on the nomination. Madcoverboy 04:17, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Created Marilee Jones

FYI -- Y not? 22:42, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] MIT International Review

User mitir added a section describing an journal entitled "MIT International Review" which I have reverted twice under the soap-boxing and notability exclusion criteria. As it appears this journal was founded in Spring 2007, I fail to see how it meets the "significant coverage", "sources", and "independence" notability criteria. User mitir also appears to also be an acronym for the publication in question and his/her/their contributions are all additions to existing MIT-related articles within the last day related to said publication. It seems that this addition is being used for self-promotion or advertising. I have stricken it from this MIT article while allowing it to remain on Student life and culture at MIT pending further consensus about which student activities/organizations/publications/etc warrant mention. Madcoverboy 06:19, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA comment

For the article to maintain its GA status, the copyrighted images need detailed fair use rationales. Look to other passed GA/FAs for examples. Let me know on my talk page if you have any questions. --Nehrams2020 06:49, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why S.B. instead of B.S.?

I'm an alumnus, and I don't know (or I've forgotten :). Isn't it rare for universities to call them S.B. degrees? I think this would be an interesting addition to the article. <>< tbc 14:55, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

According to Bachelor of Science S.B. is latin for Scientiæ Baccalaureus. However, given the relative pride that MIT attaches to its practicality in that it doesn't award honorary degrees, latin honors, and the degrees are in English (unlike many Ivies for example), this surprises me. I wonder if it is just a long-held tradition that hasn't yet been altered.Madcoverboy 17:38, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
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