Talk:Romulus Augustus

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome. To participate, improve this article or visit the project page for more information.

Romulus Augustus has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

Romulus Augustus has been listed as a good article under the good-article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a review.

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.	Biography Portal
GA	This article has been rated as GA-Class on the Project's quality scale. [FAQ]
	This article is supported by the Royalty and nobility work group.

An event mentioned in this article is a September 4 selected anniversary.

---

Honestly, it seems that people just don't believe historians. His official name was not Augustulus. Please don't move this entry to yet another new Augustulus entry without doing some research. --MichaelTinkler

Well, since Romulus Augustulus redirects here, I don't have a huge objection to the current location. But since this is an encyclopedia, isn't it better to have the familiar name to English speakers than the historically accurate name? After all, I don't see you moving Caligula to Gaius Julius Caesar Germanicus . . . --UnDeadGoat

Contents 1 Later Emperors? 2 Romulus' later life 3 Romulus' final fate 4 Footnotes 5 New Julius Nepos section 6 GA 7 POV 8 Successor

[edit] Later Emperors?

If Romulus Augustus was the last emeror of the roman empire, how could there be later emperors like the article talks about. "Unlike many of the later western Roman Emperors, Romulus' life after abdication seems to have been a good one." Reub2000 22:47, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

By "later Western Roman Emperors," it refers to all the emperors in the last portion of the Empire's history. Romulus was indeed the last of them. John

No, there were other emperors after Romulus Augustus. I have found such references to further emperors during the deputation of St. Augustine to England by Pope Gregory somewhere in the eight century. They were also based in Ravenna. However, they would have been only nominal rulers. WikiSceptic 08:18, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Ravenna was the capital of Byzantine authority in the Italian peninsula from 540 to 751 with few small breaks. The Exarch of Ravenna answered directly to the Eastern Roman Emperor in Constantinople. References to further emperors consider the Eastern line rather a nominal Western one. The conquests of Justinian were not uniformly lost after his death as some historians claim. User: Dimadick

I am really tired about persons which think to know history and then write that last West Roman emperor has been Romulus Augustus. He has been last crowned emperor and last emperor which has under his direct control ( he has been child ) city of Rome, nothing else! Last de facto and de jure West Roman emperor has been Julius Nepos!! He has been last de facto emperor because after loosing war in Italy he has still ruled roman province of Dalmatia. He has been last de jure emperor because Odoacer has accepted to be his viceroy of Italy. Like good viceroy ( and wise politician ) he has after death of Julius Nepos started war against his killers.User: rjecina

[edit] Romulus' later life

Has it been definitely confirmed that Romulus was alive in 511? I know the evidence is two letters from 507 and 511 confirming a pension, but they are addressed to a "Romulus" whose imperial pedigree is at best uncertain. Romulus (like Augustus) was a fairly common name toward the end of the Empire. Additionally, one historian of the time (can't remember who) claimed that Odoacer threw Romulus in jail. And the monastery the last Emperor supposedly endowed, according to Gibbon, was the old villa where Romulus lived -- suggesting that he was dead when it was taken over. Gibbon dates that to about 496 AD or so.

Sorry to be nitpicky. :) I think a death date of after 476 would be more accurate than after 511.--68.221.193.57 01:13, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Romulus' final fate

I changed Romulus' date of death and added a section on his later life. Very little is known about the last emperor's later life, if in fact he had one. The new section discusses this uncertainty.--Idols of Mud 13:49, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

The letters about Romulus' pension are preserved in the Variae of Cassiodorus -- probably the best primary source for this period -- & I believe that Cassiodorus' translator Thomas Hodgkin makes the identification. (AFAICR the identification of this Romulus with the deposed Emperor has never been seriously questioned, but the Prosopography of the Later Roman Empire article would settle the matter.) -- llywrch 20:12, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Very interesting. I ended up looking up the Variae, and found Hodgkin's note:

It is surely possible that this is the dethroned Emperor. The name Romulus, which, as we know, he derived from his maternal grandfather,was not a very common one in Rome (it must be admitted there is another Romulus, ii. 14). And is there not something rather peculiar in the entire absence of all titles of honour, the superscription being simply "Romulo Theodoricus Rex," as if neither King nor scribe quite knew how to address an ex-Emperor?[1]

Hodgkin says "surely possible," but the evidence from the letter is, at best, uncertain. There is no mention of the size of pension or the reason it was granted, and what's strangest to me is that Cassiodorus does not refer to this Romulus by his full name. The "absence of all titles of honor" makes Hodgkin think that Cassiodorus was dealing with a deposed emperor, but Occam's Razor would suggest that this Romulus never possessed those titles, and that he is not the same person as the last emperor. Add Jordanes' firm statement that Augustus was exiled (without a pension), and the distance between this Romulus and the last western emperor grows. Of course, he could be -- there is some circumstantial evidence -- but it doesn't establish a strong link. At least to me.--Idols of Mud 22:07, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, in response the above, I sifted thru a number of my books that cover the last quarter of the 5th century in Italy, & managed to find out the following:

• Romulus Augustus is called "Augustulus" by several near-contemporary authors: Jordanes (Gothica 242), Candidus (frag. 1), & the Anonymous Valesani Pars posterior (8.37) -- so it would be accurate to refer to him as "Augustulus"
• Romulus Augustus' power base was actually at Ravenna (Anon. Val. 8.37-38), which is where he, his father Orestes, & Orestes' brother Paulus were captured. -- so he wasn't the figurehead of a small corner of Italy.
• Jordanes, for better or worse, was the one who referred to Romulus Augustus as the last Emperor of the Western Empire (Goth 243) -- which he may have taken from Cassidorus, on whom his work depends in many parts. His statement appears to be widely accepted -- although my copy of the Oxford Classical Dictionary states that he is "commonly known as the last Emperor of the West". (Whether or not anyone considered Nepos was Emperor would lead into the realm of original research, & I don't want to go there -- although I have my suspicions.) -- which means this claim is an old one, & not the creation of some ill-informed 20th century pop writer.
• As for the Romulus of the Variae being the same person as the deposed Emperor, from what I was able to find, most of the authors appear to carefully side-step the question: for example, C.D. Gordon in The Age of Attila writes that "it is speculated" that the two are the same person. About the only author I could find who accepts this identification is Michael A. Babcock (The Night Attila Died, p.308) -- but I don't trust anything blindly from that book. -- this appears to be a problem that the authorities would prefer to ignore -- compared to the ample evidence on other issues in this article that have been discussed.

I'd be quite willing to let this issue go, except that I feel that the absense of a title shouldn't be as much of a barrier as it appears to be. The reason is simple: in Cassiodorus' time, there weren't too many precedents for addressing an ex-Emperor, because with one exception (Diocletian), the only way to stop being an Emperor was to die or be killed. Based on the other existing letters of the period, one would address the Emperor as "to my master, Emperor X"; I'm not certain that "to my onetime master, the former Emperor Romulus" solves the problem as much as it creates certain ettiquette problems.

But I wrote that last paragraph more to express what I think than to convince you otherwise. The point of Wikipedia is to report the opinions of experts, not to offer an opinion; so until someone (which includes me) has a chance to consult PLRE, I'm leaving the matter where it is. -- llywrch 06:11, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I didn't mean to imply that you were arguing for the identity of the author; I should have made that clearer in my post. You bring up a lot of good points; I'm sure addressing any former emperor would be awkward. And I think it's worth keep the issue open. I just wish there were more internal evidence in the letter to make a suggestion, one way or the other.--Idols of Mud 14:22, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I didn't think you were implying that. This happens to be a subject where it's very tempting to resort to original research in one form or another, & so far you've helped to keep this article from falling into that trap. And that is why I've been harping on using the Prosopography of the Later Roman Empire to help us here. Another authority for this & other ancient topics would be Pauly's Reallexikon.) -- llywrch 15:55, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Not a bad addition on the Collins' book, though the conclusion was POV and had to be removed. Can we provide more from the text, as well as in-line citations?--Idols of Mud 03:57, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Footnotes

I've added footnotes to the article, and moved some things around as a result. Can someone find a citation on Orestes' "Germanic" origins? It would make sense, considering he was in the army and refused the Imperial throne (which Germans could not accept) but I've never read anything that says that conclusively.--Idols of Mud 16:01, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Julius Nepos section

I don't want to get into a revert war here, so I'll just ask: Can someone explain the reason for the new section on Nepos? I understand that he was legally the last Roman emperor, but I think this is all address in the Western Empire after Romulus Augustus, which states the controversy concisely. But I'm willing to hear althernative viewpoints.  :)--Idols of Mud 16:01, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I've decided to rewrite the section. I think the legal question of Nepos as the last western emperor is interesting, but most of the stuff here repeats earlier sections, and the histories of the Roman Empire -- then and now -- have acknowledged that Augustus was the last western emperor. He was the last to hold authority in Italy, and once he fled Ravenna, Nepos had absolutely no support in the elite classes (even Zeno abandoned him quickly). For all intents and purposes, Nepos was the penultimate emperor. Of course, I'll listen to anyone with an opposing argument.--Idols of Mud 00:34, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA

I have passed the article through to GA. It is well written, has no obvious POV problems, covers the subject fully, and cites reliable sources. Great work! Eluchil404 21:14, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks!--Idols of Mud 13:53, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I double checked the image licencing and found that Image:Romul Avgustul.gif didn't have adequate source information of a proper fairuse rationale. It looks like a 19th centurey engraving that should be PD but without a source we just can't know. I have commented it out of th article pending poper sourcing. Eluchil404 01:45, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

Sorry but this article i POV when it is declaring that Romulus Augustus is last West Roman emperor. He has not been ruling after 476 but Julius Nepos has been ruling (de facto and de jure) until 480. Reality is that Romulus Augustus is last western roman emperor which is ruling from Italy and nothing else. Even in VI century whan historian has been writing that Romulus Augustus has not been last emperor but his name is so good that he will become that in history books. Rjecina 21:48, 30 march 2006 (CET)

Nepos fled Italy in 475 in the face of Orestes' revolt, and was saved in Dalmatia only by the good graces of the eastern emperor Zeno. Zeno did not lift a finger to restore Nepos after Odoacer overthrew Augustulus. The most ancient historians viewed Augustulus as the last emperor, and to call him such is not POV.--Idols of Mud 14:48, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

There is 2 problems with Romulus Augustus.

• Is he emperor ?

Somebody will ask why this question ? Answer is emperor/usurper Joannes. He has ruled 423-425 but on English wikipedia he is usurper because eastern emperor has not accepted his rule. Romulus Augustus has not been accepted like emperor from eastern emperor so in this logic (english wikipedia logic) he is usurper. Sorry but it is not possible to write of Joannes that he is usurper and that Augustus is true emperor.

• Last Emperor ?

Odoacer has accepted ruling of Zeno in which Nepos is western emperor and he is his viceroy. After killing of Nepos like "loyal servant" has attacked Dalmatia to kill person which has killed his emperor. In the end this all is not important but only 1 fact: Has crowned emperor (which has never abdicated) Nepos ruled with minimal 1 roman province after abdication of Augustus ?

Answer is Yes.

Rjecina 22:00, 2 april 2006 (CET)

Every book I have about the Roman Empire presents Romulus Augustus as the last emperor. Some of them say that he is the last emperor of the WRE, while others even go further and say that he is the last emperor of the old Roman Empire. Any account of history is POV. History is always a humane sience and is always imperfect (unlike mathematics, and supposedly chemistry and physics). History is always debated and only slowly agreed upon, as a consensus emerges. That consensus is that Romulus is the last emperor, if we like it or not. I understand the point that Nepos also has a good claim as the last emperor, but his claim has been declared null and void by historians and his rule of the crumbling empire is considered to have ended as he fled towards Dalmatia. Terms like: "Ursurper", "lawful ruler", "Rebel", "Loyalist" are mostly dependant from one POV. Wikipedia has to follow commonly accepted scolarship. We can present the issue in a precise, fair, and clear fashion, but that is it. If someone does not agree with this then he can debate the issue with Roman scholars of the entire world. Who knows? If he manages to convince the overwhelming majority of them, that Julius Nepos whole reign should be considered as the end of the WRE, then history will be re-written. Flamarande 19:19, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Romulus Augustus is last emperor of nothing. If we look Roman law in V century we will find that nobody can become emperor of East or West if he is not confirmed from living emperor. Maybe I make mistake but he has not been confirmed. Yes Flamarande historian say that he is last roman emperor but Napoleon has say 1 very wise thing about historians. I will now delete POV because if nothing else Odoacer has been deleted like heir of West Roman Empire. Small but important victory. Rjecina 23:55, 7 april 2006 (CET)

Augustulus took power at a time when the Eastern Empire was in the middle of a civil war, and if we pursue the legal argument, no emperor could confirm him. The argument also assumes the rule of law precluded the rule of man in the Roman Empire -- which, unfortunately, was not the case when the purple was involved. I haven't seen any compelling arguments to rewrite the article.--Idols of Mud 17:37, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

My last argument. In 475 Western Roman Empire is having under "control" 3 provinces. This are Italy, Gaul and Dalmatia. Of this 3 provinces only Italy has accepted rule of Augustus. Dalmatia and Gaul has been loyal to Nepos. Now my question is how anybody can say that he is deposed. ? Simple it is civil war situation like in Eastern Roman EmpireRjecina 20:23, 8 april 2006 (CET)

You are avoiding the true issue: Historians have determined that Romulus is the last emperor FULLSTOP. Go debate with profesional historians if you are so keen to re-write Roman history. Present your arguments to them and try to get to change their opinion. If you succeed then this article will be re-written (but not before). Wikipedia is not an instrument to correct - improve the oficial account of History. Flamarande 20:10, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Successor

Question of successor is simple. We can write tittle extinct or we can write all successors which control roman provinces with roman army. They are:

• Odoacer military ruler of Italy,
• Syagrus military ruler of Gaul,
• emperor Julius Nepos military ruler of Dalmatia

If Romulus Augustus has been king of Italy then you can write Odoacer like successor, but he has been "emperor" of all western roman provinces not only of Italy ! Rjecina 15:15, 14 June 2007 (UTC)