Talk:Nicene Creed

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Contents

[edit] Judging the quick and the dead?

The section "Traditional (from Book of Common Prayer)" contains this phrase, I'm pretty sure it should be the living and the dead, some just typing too fast?

-phil


[edit] What does it mean?

I really think somebody should tell us what the Nicene Creed actually means in the introduction. That is what introductions do.

"What does it mean?" or "What does it mean to you?" ...just a Lutheran plug on inputs...  :-)

[edit] Language Choices

Anybody have any ideas, if there is an appropriate spot in this article, to include accepted translations of this Creed into other languages besides English?

--Terence Lung 16 June 2006

[edit] Gender Usage

Omitting 'men' - I've never heard that one in practice, but I'm sure it's done. All of that liturgical-gender-avoidance is post-1990 in parochial usage, though it's been going on in female religious orders since the mid-60s, I've read. The only one I occasionally hear with my own ears is the resolute use of 'God / God's / God' instead of 'He / His / Him' in certain prayers, especially in the response of the people to the "Orate fratres" just before the eucharistic prayer proper:

Priest: Pray, brethren, that our sacrifice may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father.
People: May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands for the praise and glory of his ('God's') name, for our good, and the good of all his ('God's') Church.

--MichaelTinkler

That sounds like a "standard" use of inclusive language, like many of the changes in the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible. Is this a top-down change supported by some bishops, or a grass-roots thing that people are just kind of doing at the lay level? I know the American bishops don't always see eye-to-eye with the Pope on everything. --Wesley

dunno. I think it's a movement that is concerted and propagated by lay and clerical groups without episcopal approval but often with the approval of diocesan-level officials - for instance, at diocesan conferences for liturgical planning, etc. Not that there aren't some bishops who are part of it, but it's never come to a vote the way the lectionaries did. The Roman Catholic Church is and has always been a lot less successful at policing practice than either its organizational charts or its critics make out. --MichaelTinkler

I find it hard to believe that the orginal teaching of the first century church has been attacked in such a way through the misleadings of the Nicene creed 325 constantinople 381 by adding the word son of God adopts idolitary attacking the church, for sonship is ordained for the beliver to take on the name Jesus Christ we are now the sons of God. Deu. 6: 4 Hear ye O isreal know that the lord your God is one Lord.....Matthew 28:19 baptise every one of them in the name of (titles) are given no singular name is given therefore no remission of sin is given nor the forgiveness of sin is offered. Luke 24:46 repentance and removal of sin must be preached in my name starting at..... Elder Joseph Mckenzie/www.christianworldtodaytelevision.net

Thank you for sharing, Elder Joseph. --Wetman 09:12, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hi, I took a stab at Wikifying the statement about gender-neutral language recently. I had never heard of this modification to the Nicene Creed before; as a side question, why does the history of the Nicene Creed page stop abruptly in Nov. 2001? I was surprised we cannot determine what party first created/inserted this statement in the page.
Anyway, searching the web, the only references I have found thus far to such language are protestant, not Catholic. For example:

Harris7 13:34 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I removed this note regarding the change from first person singular to plural, in going from the original Greek to the modern English version that are quoted:

Thus, it is originally a statement of personal belief and pluralization is an innovation.

It's not nearly as much an innovation as that statement seems to suggest. Saying the creed was done jointly at every Divine Liturgy at least as early as John Chrysostom, though probably in singular form; I think (though I'd have to check) that many of the early Councils may have included the Creed in its plural form up front as a statement of what the gathered bishops believed jointly. This was not a matter of "personal belief" in the sense of individual belief, where individuals were free to change or omit parts of it to suit them and still call themselves Christians. If it were, there wouldn't have been nearly as much arguing over the details of how things were worded.

As for the history stopping abruptly, I think you'll find that no wikipedia article goes back much before then. Early on, there were a couple times when wikipedia lost its edit history and we just had to go forward from that point on, for software-related reasons. Wesley 12:06, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Question: Is it worth starting a page on the etymological flow of gender neutrality? The given discourse on the evolution of the Greek, Latin and English word 'man' seems worthy of a document to itself. --Penumbra 2k 15:51, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Filioque

The Filioque is parenthesized in the Latin and English, but not in the Greek; should it be so there ? (I can't recall, but I'd guess that the Greek Catholic mass says the Greek version without it ?)

The dates don't make sense, how could it be used first in Toledo, Spain in 587 and yet be already acknowledged in Rome by 447? Besides, the Filioque clause articles gives 447 as the year of a Synod in Toledo that first added the clause to the creed. eiaccb 09:21, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The filioque was never part of any Ecumenically-authorized version of the Creed. The Greek text is that Ecumenically-authorized version. As for the AD447 mention, it makes no sense to me, either. I'm deleting it. If someone can come up with a source for the claim (a source OTHER than one of the many copies of Wikipedia out there), it can come back. Dogface 18:12, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)


[edit] Singular/plural

The Greek version of the creed needs to be corrected, since in Greek it was originally written in the plural, and it is recited in the plural. See http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11049a.htm http://www.creeds.net/ancient/niceneg.htm http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8062.asp http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8065.asp

The Greek of the Nicene version was plural. The Greek of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan version (which is the complete version of the Creed) may be singular, depending upon the source. I checked this. It depends upon the text that one consults. The modern Greek text, as used by the Orthodox Church of Greece, is singular, not plural. (http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/greek/chrysostom_liturgy7.htm) Dogface 18:24, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Yes - its recited at nearly all Catholic Masses, aside from weekday Masses. Sometimes, at the discretion of the presider, it is omitted at Masses where it would just "take too long." In the Tridentine Rites, it is recited at both High Mass and Low Mass, and is sung at a Missa Cantata or Sung High Mass.
The Creed, like everything else in the Mass, has prescribed times for when it's said: Sundays and Solemnities in the new rite; traditionally, Sundays, Doubles of the I and II Class, and Feasts of Doctors. At other Masses it's omitted. In the new rite, it's permitted in some places to substitute the Apostles' Creed, but omitting it when it's supposed to be said because it would "take too long" is an abuse. As for the singular/plural issue, it's singular in Latin, and the English "we believe" is an inaccurate translation, regardless of whatever merits it may have. It's Credo, not Credimus. PaulGS 03:26, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Usage

The article says that it is often recited as part of Christian services. What about saying that it is recited at nearly all Catholic masses and Orthodox liturgies (if this be true) ? That would be a much stronger statement, I think.

It is recited in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and of St. Basil, the most commonly used Orthodox and Eastern Catholic liturgies, as well as part of some other Orthodox prayers. I suspect it's part of the standard Catholic Mass and some other Catholic prayers, but a Catholic should confirm that. Wesley 18:27, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] History

Such a big text dump, so little history. Nothing about the wrangling. What about filioque, if you don't already know why this was so touchy? Who calls it the "Niceno-constaninpolitan creed"? okay, then say so. I give this a C so far. Wetman 01:07, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Details about the filioque clause and that controversy should be in the filioque clause article, not here. I think that article does say more if I recall, and it's linked from here. I'll add something about the Nicene-constantinopolitan creed, but basically that just identifies specifically the version that was adopted in Constantinople in 381, as opposed to the 325 version from Nicea or much later versions that have the filioque clause added. Wesley 18:17, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Because there are so many irrelevant links in Wikipedia articles (not specifically here) it seems (to me) important to explicitly state the fact when links have further information. But the basic motivation for filioque belongs here too, because how does one comprehend the politics? The effects of the controversy, though not all its details, on the separate developments of the creed are part of why one reads this article. It's fine to have a filioque clause entry, with plenty of detail, but this Nicene Creed entry needs to be complete itself, as well. We can't say, "Oh they didn't understand it because they didn't follow up all the links." I'm sure we all agree in principle. Wetman 18:32, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

"one Being with the Father", seems like a really bad translation of ομοουσιον . It seems to me that it should be "the same substance as the Father". Any comments?


"One in Being" is not the correct translation of Homoousios!!!! It's "Of One Being". plus the english meaning of the latin "substantia" has lost its authenticity in the word "substance" and only maintains some of its validity in substantial and substantiated therefore the word Being must be used. Your suggestion of " the same substance" is open to heretical misinterpretation as it is not contrary to sabellian/arian etc heresies unlike the most precise "Of One Being" Onthesideoftheangels 12:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)



Better go with historic translations and explain the ambiguities and misunderstandings. "Our"rticulat translations are irrelevent.

I wonder that people are surprised to see the filioque clause in parentheses and conjecture what that might mean! Wetman 15:56, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "historic translation". This English translation doesn't look historic to me. The historic translations would have "only-begotten" for example. Either go for an historic translation, or go for a good modern translation. Which one?

fixed a typo

[edit] Full Greek Text

I'm confused. I read the article, and thought it would be a lot easier to read if the full creed was written out earlier. Then I saw in the history that the full Greek text was present in earlier versions, but was removed on 9/28/05. Does anyone know why? Does anyone mind me putting it back in? 207.172.150.65 01:49, 11 October 2005 (UTC) -Chris (not registered, as you can see)

[edit] Usage in Protestant Churches

There has been a bit of churn in the first paragraph about who "accepts" the Nicene Creed. I put "most" back in front of Protestant because my understanding is that some protestant churches (e.g., the Church of Christ) do not formally accept creeds (their reasoning is, I believe, that they consider them devisive and the Bible is a sufficient statement of the belief of the church). If people prefer different text, can we discuss it here? Johnh 18:30, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

The reason I had taken it off is that those churches that reject the creed typically do not consider themselves "Protestant" either. Actually, I do not like the word either, preferring "Evangelical", because the word Protestant seems stuck in time and does not reflect the point that has at least historically united the non-Roman western churches. -- Chris 18:51, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, "protestant" is the word used in English-speaking countries. If you don't like it, you can go back to Germany...just kidding, but "evangelical" has a quite distinct meaning in North America, at least, which is not the same as "Protestant" at all. A point, though: the Church of Christ, whether or not it calls itself Protestant, is a church out of the Protestant tradition, and, as I understand it, its doctrinal beliefs are similar to protestantism. At any rate, do Baptists accept the Creed? My understanding is that Baptists don't like the idea of creeds in general, and that while the doctrines of most Baptist groups do accept the substance of the creed, they do not accept it as a creed. Baptists are most certainly protestants - only a weirdly narrow definition of what a protestant is could reject that. At any rate, am I correct in assuming that the Creed is explicitly accepted in churches in the Anglican, Methodist, Lutheran, and Reformed modes? Do Pentecostals accepts the creed? Adventists? Disciples of Christ? john k 19:08, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

My guess is that, while both of you are basically right, it will be very difficult to get a statement that is both short and unambigious. In particular, efforts to clearly define Protestant are probably not best the subject of this page. Hence, my suggestion to just qualify it as "most Protestant" and move on. (Since that's both short, relatively clearly, and factually accurate.) Johnh 22:34, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

The inclusion of Church of Christ in the list of groups who "reject the Nicene Creed as an error or a misinterpretation," apparently leading many other Christians to "regard these denominations as not being Christian at all," is probably unfair and maybe even inaccurate. Members of the Church of Christ generally take an entirely orthodox view of the deity of Christ and the trinity. They would, however, share with "evangelical" groups an in-principle rejection of human creeds, preferring instead to use the Bible as their sole textual authority. A few members might take issue with the wording of the Nicean Creed here and there, but as the article makes plain, this is not unusual. Further, the Church of Christ does not have a central organizing body, so it is tricky portraying the Church of Christ as having an official, single voice on almost anything. Tm19 01:12, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Absent any further comments on this section, I propose removing "Church of Christ" from the list of religious groups rejecting the Creed as "an error or misinterpretation." Tm19 08:01, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed Article Restructuring

Looking at this article as a whole, it seems like it could use some restructing. A suggested structure:

  • introduction, what is the creed
  • text, in several versions (current sections: greek, latin, english)
  • wording differences (current sections: ammendments, filioque, gender neutral)
  • history (current sections: History; Nicene Christianity becomes the state religion of Rome)

I'm willing to try restructing it along these lines. Any strong objections? Or does anyone else want to do this with some other structure? Johnh 22:34, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Go for it, John. I think it needs pretty serious restructuring. Yes, put in an intro, then put in the full text in several languages, maybe with variants shown somehow, then all the discussion, as you suggest. As you will probably do that, I'm not going to bother to put the full Greek text back in as I mentioned above. 207.172.150.65 17:00, 14 October 2005 (UTC) Chris (not registered).

[edit] /* Nicene Christianity becomes the state religion of Rome */

I moved the whole section, as is, to Arianism as it deals with the Arian controversy and not with the creed as such and it contains only the end of the story and mainly from the political view, so it gives, here, a biased impression (there is also a theological side to it) - in the Arianism article, on the other hand, exactly this part of the history has been so far neglected, so it helps there to make the article better balanced. --Irmgard 23:10, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Misleading statement

There have been many further creeds, in reaction to further perceived heresy, but this one, as revised in 381 was the very last time both western and eastern branches of Christianity could bring themselves to agree upon a Credo.

This is not correct regarding Western and Eastern branches - the Chalcedonian formula is of 451 (less known as not used liturgically) is also Eastern and Western. Also the use of creeds was not only to counter heresy but also to sum up the Christian faith e.g. in liturgy or at baptism. --Irmgard 21:48, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] There is no Traditional Catholic Version

There is no Traditional Catholic version so I will add it.


[edit] The US Catholic Vernacular Creed

I am of the strong opinion that the present US Catholic version in the vernacular is potentially material heresy - One in Being does not mean homoousios or consubstantialem, and is not conducive to authentic catholicism. I also find other grammatical errors plus an insertion!! So I felt obliged to add Notes on Variants to the Modern Usage form. The US conference of Bishops is presently reforming the vernacular liturgy and repeating the same errors when a highly orthodox and dogmatically precise version of the Creed is already in use in the British Isles.Onthesideoftheangels 13:43, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The section discussing the creed as it appears in the Roman missal in the United States should be edited and then removed. It contains assertions that are unsupported by any citations to authority. For example, the section suggests the supposed reasons for changes from the 1973 version to the 1975 version but does not cite the drafters of the 1975 version (or some other recognized scholar) explaining the reasons for the differences from the 1973 version. The section also violates the requirement of NOPV. For example, the section states that the use of the phrase "he was born of the Virgin Mary" in teh 1973 version rather than "incarnate from the Virgin Mary" somehow "favour[s] abortion." That is a highly non-obvious reading of the language and appears to be based solely on the author's negative opinion of the version of the creed currently used in the Catholic Church in the United States. Such an opinion is the author's business and should not be included in a wikipedia entry. Once edited and properly supported, the section really belongs in a separate entry discussing controversies within the Catholic Church over English translation of the Roman missal. 68.175.106.173 05:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)anon

[edit] Died

In the comparison of the 325 and 381 versions, "died" is marked as an innovation of 381. However, the Greek version of the Creed of 381 contains no corresponding word:

Σταυρωθέντα τε ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἐπὶ Ποντίου Πιλάτου, καὶ παθόντα καὶ ταφέντα.

Neither does the Latin translation:

Crucifixus etiam pro nobis sub Pontio Pilato, passus et sepultus est,

Nor does either traditional English version:

He was also crucified for us, suffered under Pontius Pilate, and was buried. (RC - in passing, note the dislocated Pontius Pilate, caused by moving the comma in the Latin from after "Pilato" to after "nobis")

And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried: (CofE)

I therefore see no evidence for "died" being interposed as early as 381 (indeed, I see no pre-1960 evidence for it), and I am therefore going to remove it from the 325/381 comparison. A435(m) 16:33, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Good catch. Thanks. Wesley 17:40, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

The vernacular in use amongst catholics in the British Isles do not insert died [besides which it is grammatically incorrect in english] they translate passus as "suffered death" which is intrinsically more appropriate.Onthesideoftheangels 13:42, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] the Catholic and apostolic Church anathematizes

This appears to be attributed in the article to Nicea 325. Actually it is found in Cyril's letter to Nestorius (Council of Epheseus 431) and possibly the Council of Chalcedon 451. Whatever one's view of Nicea, if they did not include anathemas in the text, then this has to be cleaned up. As a newbie on the topic, I will wait for others, you can simply put the anathama phrase into Google and find the references. Shalom, Praxeus 08:35, 22 March 2006 (UTC)Praxeus

Ok, the text as is should be ok. Turns out the sources intermingle some, and the text that has the cross-out appears to be from the Athanasius account of the Eusebius letter to his church, which is strong enough. We discussed it on a thread at .. http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/14141.html?1143608659 And you can find various versions of the Nicene Creed with the anathama clause. While many versions leave it out (a point that could be noted). Praxeus 09:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)Praxeus

--== Catholic ==

I don't believe the word Catholic should be capialized on the line "We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church". It is not capitalized in Catholic missles, and I was taught in Theology at my Jesuit high school that the word refers to the secular word catholic, meaning universal, not Catholic, as in Church. The above text comes from my missle - apostolic is secular as well.

You are right. Normally with the upper case "C" we understand it to be the Roman Catholic Church as a denomination among other Christian denominations. I wonder if the sources from which these texts have been taken have the uppercase "C" in them. In that case the texts are simply reproduced as they are. I commend the Roman Catholic Church for lower casing the "c"! Drboisclair 19:49, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

The Catholic Church is not a denomination, it is the original Christian Church and was practiced by all Christians for over 1500 years before any other "denominations" were formed. It is why the original Church was referred to as the "catholic" Church because it was the universal Christian Church. The word catholic comes from two Greek words Kath Halou which I believe is "On the whole". --38.96.192.115 14:12, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Notes on variants

While I think this is useful and interesting, it could be improved by eliminating passive voice sentences like 'It has been argued' or 'it could be argued.' If it has been argued, state who has made the argument. If a proposition hasn't been argued by anyone, but could be, it needs to be stricken from the article until it actually is argued somewhere that can be verified. Otherwise it would be original research. Wesley 16:59, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Greek Orthodox English version"

A source is required for this insertion. The Greek Orthodox Church recites the Creed in Greek, the original language of the Creed, not a translation - even into modern Greek. Do Greek Orthodox in, I suppose, the United States - I do mean Greek Orthodox, not other Eastern Orthodox - celebrate the liturgy in English? I doubt it. If they do, give a reference to the published service book of the liturgy. The English translation that has been posted here may be just an unofficial translation found in some booklets meant to assist Greek-less worshippers in following the liturgy. Even if such a translation were made by a priest and approved by a bishop, that would not make it an official text like the official texts of the Roman Catholic and Anglican Churches. I think it would then deserve no more than a footnote to the original Greek text. If it cannot be sourced, it does not deserve even that. Lima 04:33, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Crossed out and underlined

The line:

Who because of us men and because of our salvation came down from the heaven and became incarnate

had "from the heaven" crossed out and underlined. What does this mean? Mistake? Morwen - Talk 16:41, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the differences between the earlier and later forms of this Creed are more clearly presented in the tabular form which I am now inserting in the article, and that the existing text, with its underlining and strikeouts, should be deleted. I leave it to someone else, if they agree with this idea, to do the deleting. Another problem with the existing text is that it uses a translation not found on the Internet, and vandals have been deforming it, confident that others will find it difficult to check the correct text. The table I am inserting uses an Internet text that anyone can easily check. Lima 18:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Could you put the Greek in the table as well without making it too big? I do prefer a word-for-word diff though, as opposed to corresponding paragraphs. Morwen - Talk 20:09, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I have no book that gives the Council texts in Greek, and I have not found those Greek texts on the Internet. I only have the Greek text as used in the Church's liturgy. Lima 20:46, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Morwen, now that I have divided the tabular text up into smaller portions, do you still prefer the "word-for-word diff", i.e. the underline/strikeout presentation? Lima 13:02, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I have now found the two Council texts in Greek on [this site] and have, I think, responded to Morwen's request, not by putting the Greek in the same table as the English, which would indeed make it too big, but by making a separate table for it. The text on the site has many spelling errors and has very few accents. I have tried to remedy these defects. On the other hand, I have not wished to impose uniformity in capitalization: the text on the site varies in its use of upper-case letters for God, for the Father, the Holy Spirit ... I have just left these words as I found them. Lima 15:25, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree we can do without the now redundant -strike- text. Lostcaesar 10:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The need for English translations of what Eastern Orthodoxy uses

Noting the disclaimer given in reference #3 I have added this text of the Niceno-Constantinopolitanum that comes directly from an Orthodox church's translation of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom in liturgical use in that church, which is a congregation of the Orthodox Church in America, which celebrates the Divine Liturgy in English. We should also have the present English text from the Roman Catholic mass liturgy in use. The Orthodox and the Roman Catholic tradition predate the Anglican tradition. I will also add the present liturgical text from my own Lutheran tradition.--Drboisclair 19:47, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

In most countries, as the article states, Roman Catholics use the 1975 ecumenical version. In the United States, as the article also states, they use instead the 1973 draft for this ecumenical version. A new Catholic (not produced by an ecumenical body) English version has been approved by at least some episcopal conferences and has been confirmed by the Holy See, but has not yet been put into use. When it is officially published, we can put that version here and, most likely, remove entirely the two versions Catholics use at present, since I doubt if any other Church now uses the 1975 text, and nobody but the impatient United States Catholic bishops conference adopted the 1973 draft, except perhaps in a merely experimental way.
With regard to English translations of the Creed, I suppose that the oldest tradition is indeed the Anglican. Lima 13:29, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ICET and filioque

Dear Lima, when I removed that text, I was under the impression that the "and the Son" was in brackets in the text as well. I was wrong on that. However, I do think that this is the way to present it here, to bracket that phrase and to restrict the explanations to a minimum. Str1977 (smile back) 16:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The difficulty is that, to limit the number of English translations in this page, only those in official liturgical use are included. I strongly doubt that any Church other than the Catholic continues to use the 1975 ICET version (and the Catholic Church will cease to do so in about two years' time). The others, as far as I know, use some variant of the 1988 ELLC ecumenical version, or perhaps some version of their own, like the Lutheran and the Orthodox Church in America ones. So it seems that the only form of the 1975 ICET text still in use is the one with "and the Son".
When it is published, the new Catholic (ICEL) translation will presumably replace both Catholic-used versions now included in the article, and the 1975 ICET version, with or without "and the Son", will only be a matter of history. Lima 18:44, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
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