Template talk:Refimprove

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search
This template was considered for deletion on 2007 September 20. The result of the discussion was keep.

Archives
Archive 1 Archive 2
Edit this box

Contents

[edit] Edit request

{{editprotected}}

old → ← new


Description: Please replace Image:Question book-3.svg with Image:Question book-4.svg. I believe this is an uncontroversial edit because the images are fairly similar. I think that this new image reflects the colour scheme of the template a little better, and the image looks cleaner (note the visibility around the top of the question mark), and is smaller in filesize. If consensus believes this new image is inferior then please discard the request. Oh, and if you fulfil this request, feel free to upload another version to Wikipedia and perm-protect it to reduce the risk of vandalism. Thanks in advance! TIM KLOSKE|TALK 21:46, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Support - Much improved, thanks for doing this! As you say the question mark is much more identifiable. (Frankly I'm not sure I even realized it was supposed to be a question mark prior to this!) (sdsds - talk) 22:49, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Y Done An excellent image, thanks. PeterSymonds (talk) 10:51, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Oh, just so you know (because I forgot to change the filename when I was uploading it) the image is titled Image:Question book-new.svg. I hope that doesn't matter too much. Best, PeterSymonds (talk) 11:02, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Jimbo quote

Jimmy Wales is often quoted as saying: "I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced."[1] (sdsds - talk) 08:09, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

So what is the difference between random, speculative, I heard it somewhere info, and a page typed in from memory by a history professor? Interpreted aggressively, we should immediately go out and delete 99.9% of wiki. Is that what we are supposed to do? Sandpiper (talk) 20:03, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
If there is anything that we are "supposed" to do, it would be to familiarize ourselves with Wikipedia policies and guidelines. To the extent we agree with them, we should make our behavior conform. To the extent that we disagree, we should engage our fellow Wikipedians in constructive dialog with the intent of improving the policies and guidelines. No one editor has the responsibility to "delete 99.9% of wiki." Each of us may, though, on a case-by-case basis, delete material the inclusion of which does not conform with policy.
Understanding Wikipedia policy is not easy. Luckily, it's quite rare that an edit made without complete understanding of policy will truly harm Wikipedia! So by all means, be WP:BOLD (but not reckless) with your edits. We shouldn't fear to undo the changes of others, and shouldn't fear to make changes others might undo. Instead, we should be eager to engage constructively with other editors with whom we seem to disagree. From some of them we can learn about the subject of the articles we edit. From some of them we can learn about the practical application of Wikipedia policy.
(Also, of course there are times when a disagreement gives us a soapbox from atop which we can preach! ;-) (sdsds - talk) 23:31, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I am glad to see someone added a ref for that quote. I looked at the source. The inference is that Wales is particularly referring to biographies of living people. This does not come across from the quote, which arguably misrepresents Wales statement. Rather makes the point that having a rule permitting this quote to stand as is, might be verified but not accurate. Or was that the point of quoting it? Perhaps this is what people distrust in wikipedia? Sandpiper (talk) 00:21, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Inappropriate for use on stub or start articles

In the course of the disussion above it was commented that it is inappropriate to place this tag on any 'stub' article. However, this is not mentioned on the page. I therefore propose that this should be added to the instructions on the page. I also suggest that this should apply to 'start' class articles. Sandpiper (talk) 20:48, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I am not convinced there is a consensus for prohibiting the use of this template on stub articles. Like most cleanup tags, its use should be evaluated on a case by case basis. Specifying a huge class of article upon which it cannot be used is an improper limit on our editorial discretion and smacks of needless instruction creep, IMHO. — Satori Son 13:45, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Not on stubs has been the consensus on Template:Unreferenced since May 2006 (Template talk:Unreferenced/Archive 1#This template should not be used with stubs.). The current wording on unreferenced is "Consider not adding this template to extremely short articles." I think that should be added to this template. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 14:01, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Respectfully, I remain unconvinced. I do not believe that discussion from over two years ago reflects current editorial practice: the {{Unreferenced}} tag and similar templates can be found on a very great number of stub articles.
That being said, I am not opposed to adding similar wording to this template, since it is not an outright prohibition and still allows editorial discretion. — Satori Son 14:43, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Satori Son has it just right: there's no need for iron-clad policy; there's plenty of need for editorial discretion! So if you can improve wikipedia by removing this template from clearly marked stub articles, that's making a fine contribution. If someone reinserts the template on an article from which you have removed it, that's a great opportunity to interact with another editor in the slow but steady process of building consensus! (sdsds - talk) 21:02, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
I use it on stubs. It is useful when there is no talk page activity and the stub is heading for AfD. This template gives editors an early warning that someone has noticed the stub is unrefferenced, hence possibly non-notable/made-up/deletable.YobMod 11:33, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
If the only reason for deleting a stub is because it is not sourced then there is something wrong with the AfD. Why not place your early warning on the talk page? After all we have talk pages for these types of editorial information exchanges. This particular template is useful on articles because it serves a dual function, it asks editors to add citations but it also alerts readers that the article may not be completely accurate. But on a stub it does not give any additional information to the reader and so as a messages between editors should be on the talk page. --PBS (talk) 11:43, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Reference density

I think there should be a formal number set for something like reference density. Lets say x refs would be needed for y characters (or z words) of an article. Later, automated tagging could make use of this.--Kozuch (talk) 13:37, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

It would be great if there were a formal measure for this. Since the measure does not exist (at least there is no general agreement about one), it seems moot to begin the process of establishing a measurement value which would trigger automated tagging. The WP:BRD essay describes a process which is a fine approach to reaching some sort of agreement about which articles need higher levels of referencing. (sdsds - talk) 21:13, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, I will have to see someone use WP:BRD. I didn't quite "get" it. Sorry. And I recognize sdsds as an experienced editor, so I am sure there is a lot of sense behind the recommendation BUT, I didn't quite see any broad discussion of referencing. I probably looked too quickly.
Oops, sorry I didn't do a better job expressing that! All I meant was that a fine way to decide whether a particular article "should" have a refimprove template is for one editor to Boldly add one, for another editor to Revert the addition, and then for the two editors (and others) to Discuss it on the article's talk page. (sdsds - talk) 02:47, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
When I see 3/printed page, I figure the editors have been at least trying, if they are fairly evenly dispersed. (Admittedly, the same reference can be used many different times. If done properly, there should be a lot of single references, multiply-used early in the articles development). I have been scolded as pedantic for using "three" but it's held up for me pretty well, despite the caviling.Student7 (talk) 00:43, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

What I actually meant was introducing a value, that would HELP in some ways of deciding over referencing, but would not be binding. Maybe I put it wrong with formality - it might pretty much be an informal tool for watching articles refs status and suggesting decisions to be made (for semi-automated tagging maybe?).--Kozuch (talk) 11:31, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

One more try: it would be a suggestive measure, just for helping editors. Lets say editors could somehow check articles (javascript?) against this value and get a quick reference density overview.--Kozuch (talk) 11:35, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Mmmm I am a bit hesitant, as number of references/text will be very hard to quantify in any meaningful way. The only objectively useful measure would be the Zero (ie not a single source for the whole article). Note that several reference styles are acceptable, that do not necessarily use templates, or even a references section, so a bot needs to be very advanced for such a task. Arnoutf (talk) 19:40, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. An interesting idea, but I don't really think that this is something that you can really quantify. There are just too many specrtums at hand, too many variables. Speaking on the page here alone, some statements require more evidence than others. Sometimes, you can write a substantial amount of an article based on a single reference (for example, a music group's discography). On the other hand, an article full of extraordinary claims (Giovanni di Stefano comes to mind) is going to require a reference for practically every single statement. Considering the reference, it could be a trivial mention in some backwater local paper from a village in Alabama with a population of 28 or it could be a full-fledged article by the BBC. There are lots of things to consider that can't be examined by numbers. Celarnor Talk to me 19:52, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, it might seem rather complex idea at first sight, but I do think there can be few simple workarounds. Various reference densities could be required for various article importances. One can also for sure count exact average reference density of featured articles - that value might help somehow too. I am thinking also rather of counting <ref> tags only, believing they carry useful reference - maybe that would be the only result - just counting ref tag density actually.
As was said above, due to the widespread use of other reference styles, counting ref tags would be very misleading. Furthermore, I strongly question whether there would be any meaningful relationship between this statistic and article quality; there are lots of measurable quantities that are meaningless (for instance the ratio of vowels to consonants in an article's text) and this may be one. Christopher Parham (talk) 00:40, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
That doesn't really take into account any of the things I mentioned above; "The number of words in this article divided by the number of references is x", while seemingly useful at first, is really actually quite useless; like I said, there are varying degrees of "This statement needs a reference," varying degrees of "this statement needs more neutral references", "this statement needs higher-profile, more respectable references", "this particular reference is coatracky"...there are just too many things to consider to make this useful practical, practically speaking. Anything using it as a rationalizing for doing anything is going to get shot down because of the dynamic way in which references are treated. "This article cites 8 references and has 82 words" could be a bad sign in a BLP about a Parliament member, but it could be a good sign in an article about a town or location. It's just too useless. Celarnor Talk to me 03:39, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
It also depends on what the sentences and facts are. A sentence can describe a single or multiple facts, and one reference can encompass a whole paragraph's information, reworded sufficiently to not be plagiarism. Particularly disputed facts are likely to have or need more references to cement its verifiability, which may account for bunches of refs clustered around a few facts. MeekSaffron (talk) 02:36, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

An interesting idea, but bear in mind that sheer number of references is a pretty arbitrary measure. A single definitive published source will outweigh many dozens of fan pages/blog posts etc. A calculated measure could do more harm than good, in that it might detract from editors' own common sense judgments. – Spudtater (talk • contribs) 22:33, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Should this tag also be included in sections?

{{editprotected}}

I was viewing the Let It Be (song) article, and there are some covers listed, but with no sources. And since this template is fully protected, I thought there could be a template like this, but replacing 'article' with 'section'. Any thoughts? SchfiftyThree 19:29, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

You can just do {{refimprove|section}}. Happy‑melon 21:23, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, forgot about that. SchfiftyThree 06:04, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] TfD nomination of Template:Citations missing

Template:Citations missing has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. (This template is a potential merge-to or redir-to.) — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 06:03, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Style edits

{{editprotected}}

I've made some edits to the new sandbox to bring it into line with modern ambox defaults. Just needs synced. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 22:57, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Y Done. Cirt (talk) 23:59, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Category

This should also place articles in Category:All articles needing additional references But I am afraid to mess with the template code.--BirgitteSB 19:52, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

You requested the same thing for {{notability}}, and it raises the same question: what good would a category containing tens of thousands of disparate articles do? Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 10:26, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
That would have the beneficial effect of making it much easier to update the backlog lists at Category:Wikipedia backlog, so that you don't need to go through all of the by-month cats, adding the totals together, to find out how many total are backlogged. I'd find this quite helpful both for that and just to see how progress is coming along. It's already done by some templates (e.g. {{copyedit}}), so why not have all of them use it? -Drilnoth (talk) 14:34, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Say "Thank you" at the end of it

Really, i think this would improve it, and all similar templates, by leaps and bounds... to say 'thank you' at the end of it... imho. thanks. what do you think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Decora (talk • contribs) 00:35, 8 February 2009

I don't think that's necessary. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 10:18, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Template on top or in the reference section

This template is often placed on top of a article, while it could just as well be placed in the reference section. Particularly in a relatively good written articles, for example the House of Orange-Nassau, I think there is no need to keep this article on top for months/years. Every body knows Wikipedia articles can always be inmproved, and adding sources is one way of improving the article.

It seems to me the template often get placed on top of the article by users, who only wants to boost the number of edits as fast and simple as possible.

The template is put on top, so called to stimulate other users to add sources, but I question that this works. It seems to me putting the template on top, is giving a warning that "the article could be unreliable", or even that "the article is unreliable". Now I think giving such warning should be a last restort. First some fact-tags should be used, to actually establish that an article might be unreliable. Now I haven't read all previous discussion here, and maybe there are rules allready. Could somebody please explain, or give their opinion. Thanks. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 16:07, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

P.S. I just experienced the opposite. In the article Methodology I just moved the tag on top of the article after adding three fact tags. I really think this article is unreliable and people should be warned.

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking here. People don't put tags on an article to just boost their edits, they do it when there are way too few sources for facts claimed in the article. This tag is placed at the top because that's where more people see it and where most others are placed. We don't work on a "warning" system for articles. Either it's up to snuff or it's not.--Flash176 (talk) 16:41, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. I will try to rephrase. I think:

  • This template shouldn't be add on top of the article, unless there is reason to believe the article is unreliable
  • If the article is ok, the tag should be add on the ending of the article in the reference section.

For the following reason:

  • The template on top is a burden for every reader.
  • The template seems like a warning that the article is not ok.
  • The argument to reach as many people is not a good reason to put the template on top.

Two examples:

  1. The House of Orange-Nassau seems generally quite good, and the template should be on the end
  2. The methodology article is in need of reliable sources because the content is highly questionable. Here this template should be on top.

-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 20:37, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

This question initially came up in the project management article.
Ghaag (talk) 09:46, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
I understanding the problem to be about the position of the {{Primarysource}} tag in an article. We are arguing whether:
  • the tag should ALWAYS be at the top of the article
  • the tag can be placed in the "reference" section
Ghaag (talk) 11:47, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
My personnal position on this is that:
  1. {{Primarysources}} banner is an article warning not a section warning. Since it is an assessment of the article as a whole, it should therefore not be placed in a particular section.
  2. I also dispute the fact that, by moving the banner effectively towards the end of the page, readers are not warned about the article shortcomings before reading it. This is purely misleading.
In answer to Marcel Douwe Dekker:
  • I do not see evidence of "burden for every reader" when the warning is at the top. In fact this position is "fairly common" for warning tags.
  • I agree with him that it acts as a warning because the article DOES have shortcomings. If it was "ok" I would advise to to simply remove the tag rather than move it.
  • his third point is more a subjective objection to a previous counter-argument stating: "high visibility would also help to speed up the process of providing references"
Ghaag (talk) 12:26, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

As to your first statement the template documentation here on the Template:Refimprove page states otherwise. It clearly states:

This template indicates that the article needs additional references. There is currently no consensus on where to place this template. Many editors understand this template to be redundant when it is used on articles clearly marked as stubs. The first unnamed parameter will replace the words "section or article" in the template, and is not required. The most common usage of this is to use one word or the other, e.g. {{Refimprove|section}} to indicate that only the section is affected by the tagged problem.

As to your second statement, there is no need warn the reader when the article itself is written in a reliable way and none of it statements are questioned. Warning the reader when the article is all right is misleading. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 12:46, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

  • My initial argument (1) is not at odd with even this template guideline which merely state no concensus.
  • Regarding my second argument (2), I am making the foolish assumption that the tag is legitimate (ie useful, relevant and accepted) and therefore indicates a genuine flaw in the article. If there is an identified and recognised shortcoming in the article I can not see how it could qualify as "all right". Now I can see your point if the tag is not legitimate but this is not the topic of the discussion.
Ghaag (talk) 15:22, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
To put a bit of perspective this question was raised a while ago on this very page. I believe that both Marcel Douwe Dekker and I are bringing new arguments and variations of previous arguments
To me there is a major pitfall in this discussion which is the confusion between the legitimacy of the tag and it position.
  • The former is about whether the tag should be present at all
  • The later is about where to place the tag in the article
Ghaag (talk) 15:22, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me your a mistaken from your first comment here. I didn't start this discussion at the project management, but with the example the House of Orange-Nassau. This only question I have is:

Should the template be placed on top or in the reference section?

The question about the Primary sources tag, I have asked at the Template talk:Primary sources#When should this article be used. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 00:13, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Removing the template

Hi all, is there any particular action that you should take when you remove this template from a page — i.e. after you've just added what you consider to be an adequate set of references? I've just left a note in the edit summary, but am wondering if I should add anything to the discussion page, etc. Thanks. – Spudtater (talk • contribs) 22:24, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Edit requested

{{editprotected}}

Could someone add ({{Findsources}}) before the closing </small>. Kevin (talk) 00:43, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to see some opinions on that first. We don't want to litter our articles with google links. I can accept that on {{BLP unsourced}}, but I'm not sure if we want that on all unsourced articles. --Amalthea 18:31, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Probably makes sense to consolidate this discussion at Template talk:Unreferenced#Edit requested. --Amalthea 18:32, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Highly misleading, template needs change

This template is highly misleading in that the link "inline citations" it includes does not lead to Wikipedia:Citing sources#How to present citations but to an article on footnotes, which are only one of the types of inline citations accepted on Wikipedia. This gives the false impression that footnotes are the only kind of inline citations, whereas many articles use parenthetical referencing, which is actually the norm in many academic fields and is explicitly accepted in Wikipedia:Citing sources#How to present citations. Please change the link to "inline citations" in this template so it points somewhere more appropriate, as it does in other similar templates, such as this one (click the link under "inline citations"):

 This article includes a list of references or external links, but its sources remain unclear because it lacks inline citations. Please improve this article by introducing more precise citations where appropriate.

I am constantly battling people who think footnotes are the only kind of inline citations and, with the best of intentions, are messing up articles accordingly. VikSol (talk) 19:45, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

I can understand where the above editor is coming from and I thoroughly disagree with him! I hate parenthetical references. They seems sloppy and disrupt the flow of reading IMO. I guess we have to tolerate them. But do we have to promote them? Student7 (talk) 12:58, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Refimprove"
Personal tools