What is the basis for the following section: "In the land of Israel during the early Christian era, Samaritans fared badly. Due to intense pressure to convert to Christianity (often with threats of violence) Samaritans took to attacking Christians. Christians used the threat of force to convert Samaritans and Jews to Christianity, and often had outright attacks on both Samaritans and Jews. The holy places of both groups were taken over by the Christians. By the 3rd century both Samaritans and Jews were second-class citizens." Until the 3rd Century, Christians were themselves a tiny and persecuted minority. It seems implausible that they were able to exert as much pressure on Samaritans or Jews as this section suggests. Furthermore, pacifism was a dominant part of Christian theology until after the conversion of Constantine. This section should be heavily edited/deleted unless it can be substantiated. --Michelle K. 08:52, 2004 Jul 5 (UTC) ---- OneVoice, have you ever met Samaritans or talked to them? They would immediately tell you that Josephus was biased. They would have a point too. You are telling their history from a Jewish perspective. Why not introduce their voice too? After all, they claim to be descendants of the original Israelites. That should certainly be mentioned before some rival claim dismissing them. Danny 02:52, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC) Danny, I would be very happy to have their view expressed as well. Here you/we are saying that Josephus is biased. On the Jesus page, he is noted as a being reliable. Perhaps it depends strongly on what is being said about whom, though I do not know this is necessarily the case. It does not dismiss them, they are still real and present. The question as to descent could be answered rather well via DNA testing of their Priests and Levites http://www.cohen-levi.org/jewish_genes_and_genealogy/the_dna_chain_of_tradition.htm as well as mitochrondrial DNA testing. But there is risk, the desired results might not be obtained. Would this meet the need: :The Samaritans have insisted that they are direct descendants of the Northern Israelite tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh, who survived the destruction of the Northern kingdom of Israel by the Assyrians in 722 B.C.E. The inscription of Sargon II records the deportation of a relatively small proportion of the Israelites (27,290, according to the annals), so it is quite possible that a sizable population remained that could identify themselves as Israelites, the term that the Samaritans prefer for themselves. :Samaritan historiography would place the basic schism from the remaining part of Israel after the twelve tribes conquered the land of Canaan, lead by Joshua. After Joshua's death, Eli the priest left the tabernacle which Moses erected in the desert and established on Mount Gerizim, and built another one under his own rule in the hills of Shilo (1 Sam 1:1-3; 2:12-17). Thus, he established both an illegitimate priesthood and an illegitimate place of worship. According to this description, the Jews are the dissidents! OneVoice 03:51, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC) ::As far as genetic testing of Samaritans goes, this has been done extensively, and the male Samaritans are proven to be mainly of the "Cohen haplotype".http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Shen2004.pdf -- Olve 18:15, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC) You say you would be very happy to have their view expressed as well. That is very generous of you [sic]. Never have I said that Josephus is reliable. In fact, I contend that the Jesus account is a later addition. Do you know how to use or assess ancient sources? As for your suggestion regarding DNA testing to determine descent, you are showing how little you actually know about the Samaritans. The priestly families died out generations ago, and the people now acting as priests are not from the priestly family. As for DNA testing, it is done regularly. In fact, Samaritans cannot marry without DNA testing being done, because there are only four families left, and it is required to prevent genetic disease (it is done in Tel HaShomer hospital. According to John Whiting in ''National Geographic'', 1919, there were fewer than 150 Samaritans left--their growth to 700 today is largely a result of the care taken in testing). The proposed text is better, Josephus should be mentioned, but not as the main source for identifying them--you might want to look at Ben-Zvi for a later view. As for showing "Jews as dissidents," so what? We are not writing articles to promote agendas, "pro-Jewish" or "anti-Jewish." Danny 11:46, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC) ''[sic]'' is used in a quotation to indicate that an error, often spelling, is recognized by the quoter and retained deliberately to reflect exactly what was originally written. "That is very generous of you [sic]." is not correct usage, as far as I know. Why do people on wikipedia seem to always include personal invective or personal slights in their comments. That behavior is sophomoric. (Note this is a characterization/criticism of the behavior; the person is free to choose their behavior at each instant, so past behavior does not condemn on to continue behaving in the same manner....freedom of choice is given to human beings.) I am not an expert on the Samaritans. I do not and have not claimed to be. I did not say that you believe Josephus to be reliable. Indeed my opinion and your opinion on his accuracy is immaterial. There are authorities aplently with degrees from prestigious institutions whom we can turn to for their opinions on such matters. I would like to read the Ben-Zvi material. Is it available on the web? Please feel free to edit the page. But consider keeping the Bible citation and Josephus because our ability to determine what actually is the truth of the matter is poor. To return to the personal asperitions...what agenda do you believe that I am trying to promote. What I am trying to do is reduce the level of partisanship and black and white presentation that wikipedia has at this time while not ignoring that deeds are committed by people and their personal responsibility should not be hidden by the passive voice. OneVoice 15:57, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC) NPOV edit - I removed "for self defense purposes" from the end of the sentence "But the conflict followed them. In 2001, the Israeli army set up an artillery battery on Gerizim" at the end of the second paragraph in the "Modern Times" section. The area in question is deep inside the West Bank near Nablus, and Israeli military incursion here and throughout the West Bank and Gaza is considered by some, including the UN and most human rights organizations, to be offensive rather than defensive in nature, and contrary to international law. Stating that the installation of an IDF artillery battery near Nablus was for "self defense" is a partisan POV. Based on the relevant articles of international law which address this situation without ambiguity, as well as the position of the UN SC and GA and the preponderance of official position statements from a large majority of governments of the world, it could easily be argued that a NPOV would that this installation and other similar military actions by Israel in occupied lands are inflammatory and illegal. However, to be conservative, I have removed the "self defense" reference and not replaced it with anything that could be construed as containing POV. ===Ten Commandments?=== It says: They have a significantly different version of the Ten Commandments (for example, their 10th commandment is about the sanctity of Mt. Gerizim). So I would be interested in seeing this significantly different list posted SF2K1 == "last century" ambiguity == In the text "a fifth family died out in the last century", does "last century" mean the 19th century or the 20th century? Anthony Appleyard 06:10, 21 May 2005 (UTC) == I don't get it == "Samaritans ''fared badly'' under Roman rule, when Samaria was part of the Roman province of Judea, in the early part of the Common Era. However, ''this period was also something of a golden age'' for the Samaritan community." Samaritans "fared badly" during "something of a golden age for the Samaritan community"?