Wikipedia talk:Featured article review

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See also: Wikipedia:Featured articles with citation problems.

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[edit] Long-term updating of articles

Is the long-term updating of featured articles something that WP:FAR concerns itself with? This is sort of related to the "stability" criterion of the featured article criteria, but probably a better way to think of this is whether articles can go "stale". I'm thinking in particular of contemporary articles, written at the time of an event (eg. disasters or other news stories), and whether or not a failure to keep the articles up-to-date is a problem. News articles that go stale look bad, because it looks like they were intensively worked on at the time (for obvious reasons) and then have been neglected since, which isn't really what "featured articles" should be about. Sometimes much of the long-term aftermath material can go in a separate article, with only a summary needed in the main article, but the articles need to be kept up-to-date, otherwise they end the story just after the event and then fall silent, and the reader is left wondering what happened next - again, not something that featured articles should do.

The specific example here is Hurricane Katrina and (presumably) Effect of Hurricane Katrina on New Orleans. I've raised this issue three times before, and some updates have been done. I've now raised it a fourth time, and started this discussion here. PLease see the following talk page threads:

So my questions are what should be done in the general and specific cases? Carcharoth (talk) 02:19, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not really grokking the question. Featured articles should be accurate (1c) and comprehensive (1b). If they're not, we can review them. The best way to handle this, though, is to leave messages on the talk pages and the relevant WikiProjects asking that the articles be updated, identifying specific areas that need attention, are inaccurate or are not comprehensive, give it some time, and then come to FAR if they're not updated. Have you invited the original author and WikiProjects tagged on the article pages to this discussion or shared your concern with them? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:36, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
"Up-to-datedness" has been a concern on a couple of reviews. I note it as a comprehensiveness concern when I move an article from FAR to FARC, although 1b doesn't actually mention it. My advice would be the same: hit user talk and active WikiProject, if there is one. If that doesn't work, well then, bring it here. Don't do that until you've exhausted article talk though, lest people think you're jumping the gun with the nomination.
(Grokking the question?! That's a new one :). Marskell (talk) 15:57, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the replies. I'm a bit puzzled that you are both saying I should take this to the talk page, as I thought my comment above made it clear (if you follow the links) that I have raised this on the talk page several times over the last few years since Hurricane Katrina. If there is a general lack of response over the course of two years, is that not a concern? My more general point is that 1c and 1b don't work well for articles about current or ongoing events. It was predictable that the Hurricane Katrina article, and others like it (eg. 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake) would accrue more information over the succeeding years - more so than, say, an article about the Great Lisbon Earthquake (which is not to say that historical subjects don't change as new research is published, it is just that the change needed for current affairs articles is more predictable). In other words, an article may satisfy 1c and 1b when it passes FAC, but it will more likely than not start to go out of date immediately. That seems to be to be a type of instability. Just something that might be worth flagging up - maybe make a list of the featured articles that may need this kind of attention, and try and raise the profile of the updating work needed. It is depressingly common for people to actually avoid editing featured articles because they are featured. There is an {{update}} template, but putting that on featured articles might not go down too well. Carcharoth (talk) 23:27, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Have you posted to Titoxd (talk · contribs) about this thread? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:42, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I have now, but the Hurricane Katrina article is only an example. It is the general case I'm asking about here. I could go through all the featured articles and list those ones about events or products that are still regularly making news, and then see how up-to-date those are. Would that help? Carcharoth (talk) 00:08, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm not really seeing the distinction; any article can become outdated or inaccurate over time, so I can't see the benefit in singling out specific articles. In any case, it seems the general answer would be the same: if you identify a WP:WIAFA deficiency in a featured article, you raise it on the talk page or the relevant Project or with the principle editor (if still active), and if that isn't successful, then a review would be the next logical step. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:11, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Also, looking at some of the examples you raise here, some of that could have been avoided (today) if the article writing (then) had accounted for Wikipedia:MOSDATE#Precise language—but some FA reviewers rail against WP:MOS, so getting other reviewers to uphold it is sometimes like swimming upstream. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:14, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Precise dates - that's sounds like what I was saying before on that thread you've linked to... sorry, this thread. :-) Anyway, I happen to think that some articles are more likely to become outdated, and I'm about to spend some time trying to prove it by looking through all (well, nearly all) the featured articles! Wish me luck! Carcharoth (talk) 00:17, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
The problem is that, by identifying articles that deal with current events and that might be outdated, you don't prove that all the other FAs are any more current and accurate than those you identify are, so it doesn't seem a good use of time. Better would be to work on enforcing precise language at FAC to begin with. As far as tagging FAs, I stuck some udpate tags on 7 World Trade Center just last week. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:20, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
PS And they're still there, but editors have lives. Also, when I put the tags at 7 World Trade Center, I realized we have some really snazzy features for articles that may need updating. As of March 2007,{{update after|2008|03|01}} causes the update tag to remain invisible until after March 2008, and then show up as As of March 2007,[update needed] so you can flag things that need updating by a certain time. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:30, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Of course I won't get through all 1906 featured articles! But it should be interesting. Like you, I came to 7 World Trade Center because it is the first on the list, but I did have the thought: is it possible to get a list of all the featured articles about living people? Even better, is it possible to have a list of all the featured articles that are biographies of people (living or dead)? That should be easy (cross-reference with the WPBiography tag or the "year of birth" categories and the "Living people" category), and those two lists would be useful. It appears that Category:FA-Class biography articles (458 members) includes a list or two as well, but that is a pretty good approximation. Now I just need to cross-check that with Category:Biography articles of living people. Carcharoth (talk) 00:34, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I still don't see what that will accomplish: what about, for example, medical articles that regularly become outdated by new advances? Films, with stats about box office data. Or sports articles that regularly become outdated on stats? They all can become outdated; I just don't see the benefit in singling out any individual category or group of articles. (This thread has made me feel stupid from the beginning :-)) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:37, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Maybe if I approach it from the other end? Would you agree that some articles are more stable than others? For example, Georg Forster is something that would only need small improvements over time. Unless new biographical material emerges, there is unlikely to much to challenge the "comprehensiveness" criterion. I hope you will agree that Katie Holmes is more likely (indeed, certain) to need updating? The dead people versus living people (with the exception of recently dead people, and here recent can mean years - the definitive biography of Elvis Presley could not have been written immediately after he died), is a good example, but the divide is still more between those that have become part of history (Forster) and those who are (or were) part of contemporary culture. Articles have a greater inertia the older the topic is, if you know what I mean? Anyway, think of this more as being about dividing up the featured articles by more categories than just those found at WP:FA, and ignore the "updating" bit if you like. Have a look at User:Carcharoth/Featured articles needing regular updates for a modest start at getting a handle on the featured articles about "people" (heavily based on Category:FA-Class biography articles). I'm sorting out the 413 bit at the moment, just need to twiddle things in a spreadsheet. Carcharoth (talk) 01:14, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, but I just don't get it. Almost all articles need regular updating, and I don't see why focus on bios or hurricanes, when sports, videos, films, medical articles and so on are no less in need of regular updating. A shorter list would be which articles don't need updating, and I'd question a lot of what might end up on that list. Sorry, but I'd rather see people go review some articles currently at FAC and FAR and pick out the issues with precise language that our reviews are letting through. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:04, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Maybe. I'll either wave from this side of the room if I decide to go back to finding the featured articles on living people, or wade into FAC with a "PRECISE LANGUAGE" banner... :-) Carcharoth (talk) 02:17, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Go for it ! (The latter, that is :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:21, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I've now notified the WikiProject as well. My question over there was whether they, as a WikiProject, devoted time to keep FAs up-to-date. Obviously most hurricanes don't need so much post-event attention, but I would have hope that Hurricane Katrina would have could a bit more attention from someone (I may try and do something myself later). My general question about FAs hasn't been answered though: do people think that the little bronze star can sometimes discourage people from updating an article, or lull them into a false sense of security "it's featured so it must be OK"? Sandy has used the "update" tag - is it accecptable to use that tag more widely, or should the talk page be tried first? Carcharoth (talk) 11:28, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't see any difference between how FAs and other articles are edited, and I don't see adding that little inline tag[update needed] as disruptive or bothersome at all (big driveby tags bother me on well-written articles, but that's true whether FA or not), so I'm indifferent to whether it's raised on talk or by adding the little inline (but I did/usually do both). The nice thing about adding the little inline is that any new editor might see it and update the data, even if they haven't read the talk page. Another thing you can do is to add the update needed inlines with a date that triggers a month from now, and then leave a talk page note, so the editors are warned in adavance and have a month to work on them before the invisible tags show up. On the general issue of keeping FAs up to date, as we've learned here on FAR, almost none do. If the original editor doesn't do it, usually no one does. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:48, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
One of my points has been confirmed by Titoxd's response here. My concern is that people are actually avoiding updating the article because they fear (probably rightly) that partial attempts at updates would imbalance the article. I also suspect that people are more wary of doing this updating because it is a featured article, and they are waiting for an "expert" or someone with enough time, to come along and do the updating. In other words, rather than updates taking place the normal way for Wikipedia, the achievement of featured article status has contributed to impeding further updates. But this is common to all featured articles. Carcharoth (talk) 03:30, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
While I appreciate the concern, you need more than one example to prove a systemic problem. I have no idea if this common to all featured articles. Marskell (talk) 21:27, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] FA London congestion charge doesn't make sense

This doesn't make any sense to me -

"In 2007, the Fifth Annual Monitoring Report by TfL stated that between 2003 and 2006, N2O emissions fell by 17%, PM10 by 24% and CO2 by 3%, with some being attributed to the effects of reduced levels of traffic flowing better, with the majority being as a result of improved vehicle technology.[25][122] These accounted for a falls of N2O by 17%, PM10 by 24 percent and CO2 by 3 percent.[25] In total the rate of fall in CO2 has been 20%.[123]"

I'm bemused by the fact that the article is a featured article.

I'd like to edit it but gave up because the inline referencing format and text make it too time consuming to read and edit. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 16:47, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

That bit was incorporated here quite late in the FAC cycle. Gimmetrow 21:27, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
That's as may be - it still doesn't make sense though. -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 15:52, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Help please

I want to list Book of Kells for review because it lacks inline citations, but it looks like a long and confusing process. Could someone help me through it? Shalom (Hello • Peace) 21:35, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Featured article review/Constitution of Belarus

Can I have some more eyes at this FAR; I personally need folks to tell me exactly what to fix. All I have here is just general ranting about Belarusian politics and asking for expansion of other articles not related to this. Thanks. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 04:13, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I can look at it either tonight or tomorrow. --Laser brain (talk) 04:25, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 04:36, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] when articles are downgraded from FA-status (redux)

Original Discussion → Wikipedia talk:Featured article review/archive 7#when articles are downgraded from FA-status

I agree with the cited thread that nomination for a down-graded FAR to GA-candidate would be a poor choice of outcomes. In the case of Korean name, the outcome was a transition from FAR→B-class. The FARC input did not suggest what outcome class the article should be placed at and I am wondering if the current best-practice is, in fact, to do a FAR→B transition so that the article is placed at the threshold of the class-review process to begin working up once more to GA then A and eventually FAR? Thanks for additional input on this topic. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:46, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

All de-featured articles are switched to B-class; GA is a separate process from FA, and articles can re-apply there. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:48, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
So to clarify, does this mean that when an article is promoted from GA to FA, it is no longer considered a GA? Or do those specific types of articles still retain the GA rating and when they lose the star, they revert to GA? BuddingJournalist 18:19, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Articles promoted to FA are removed from the GA listing (by GimmeBot), but the articlehistory shows that they were once GA. Defeatured FAs don't revert to GA; they need to re-apply. Most articles that are de-featured would not quality for GA, as they are typically defeatured for reasons that would also preclude a GA rating. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:28, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Then a summary depiction of the overall promotion-demotion process would look something like the graphic at right? This assumes that an article needs to be GA-Class before it can be considered for FA-class ... which might be incorrect. Pardon my lack of experience but what is the process for reaching A-Class? There are some embedded questions in there like 'Is A-Class relevant any longer?' and 'Is article promotion from B-Class to A-Class a third, parallel pathway?' Oh, and there is that final question ... is this the right forum to pose this question to? --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:31, 2 April 2008 (UTC)


No: neither B-class, A-class or GA ratings have anything to do with the FA process. See Talk:Ima Hogg. ALL of the other processes you mention vary in consistency across Projects and depending on editors who evaluate them. FA is the only community process. The rest are unrelated. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:38, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I have updated the image to reflect your input; the original version is located here. The absence of a class-designation on the original article indicates that an article could be nominated for FA-status regardless of its current class ... even if it has not been otherwise classed. Is this closer to the current situation? --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:57, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I can't make any sense of the new diagram, but: 1) yes, an article can go from zero to FA (and most articles of experienced FA writers do that, bypassing other processes), and 2) all de-featured articles are rated B-class by GimmeBot. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:11, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I had some problems with adding the 'demotion' label ... does it make more sense now? --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 02:13, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
No; it doesn't show that some articles do go through B, GA, and A-classes to get to FA. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:15, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
That is shown by the "no class label" document - that originating document could be B-class, A-class or GA-class ... doesn't matter. If I were to draw all possible paths, the image would be more path than document and label ... I'll do another minor tweak to try and make it clearer in a few minutes. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 02:17, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
gee - took tooo long ... a good image with explanatory text --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 02:36, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Question

I might be missing something but would it be wrong to list "She Shoulda Said 'No'!" for FA review? IMO doesn't seem FA material, I could be wrong though. §tepshep • ¡Talk to me! 23:03, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

You would need to supply reasons relative to WP:WIAFA, and it's courtesy to first raise the issues on the article talk page, and allow the editors there time to correct any deficiencies you mention. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:08, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Monthly update of substantive styleguide and policy changes

Sandy and others have requested regular updates of substantive changes to MOS (not just copy-editing). I hope I haven't left anything out that's substantive. Here's the whole-month diff.

3 March – 3 April 2008

Manual of style, main page

  • Multiplication symbols. Added: Do not use an asterisk to represent multiplication between numbers in non-technical articles. The multiplication sign in exponential notation (2.1 × 108) may now be unspaced, depending on circumstances (2.1×108); previously, spacing was always required in exponential notation.
  • Images. There were minor changes to the advice concerning the direction of the face or eyes in images, and concerning the size of images.
  • Punctuation in quotations. "Punctuation" was added to the requirement that "Wherever reasonable, preserve the original style, spelling and punctuation".
  • Em dashes. "Em dashes are normally unspaced" was strengthened to "should not be spaced".
  • Instructional and presumptuous language. "Clearly" and "actually" were added to the list of words that are usually avoided in an encyclopedic register.
  • '"Pull" and block quotes. Removed: Pull quotes are generally not appropriate in Wikipedia articles. Added: Block quotes can be enclosed using {{quotation}} or {{quote}} (as well as the existing specification, i.e., between a pair of <blockquote>...</blockquote> HTML tags).

Layout styleguide

  • "See also" sections. Clarification that links should be presented in a bulleted list, and that rather than grouping them by subject area, it is helpful to alphabetize them.

Non-free content policy

  • Criterion 8. The second clause was removed: "Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding."

Licensing policy


TONY (talk) 14:11, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

  • A page has been established for users to notify substantive changes to styleguides and policy pages here. Monthly update summaries will be stored on a dedicated page here in chronological sequence, as a service to the community. The summaries will not rely on the notifications alone, but will involve a survey of the whole-month diffs for each of the major pages. TONY (talk) 06:22, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WP Signpost on FAC and FAR/C reviewing

This week, it's all about the aspects of reviewing that are critical to maintaining WP's high standards, and the other advantages of being a reviewer. Here's the link:

Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2008-04-07/Dispatches

Happy for the word to be spread, since we need more reviewers; if you have a mind to alert others at WikiProjects and the like, please do. TONY (talk) 08:31, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Featured_article_review"
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