Talk:Pope

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[edit] Archived

The long list of discussions which were not active have been archived, accessible from the box above. Dunfermline Scholar (talk) 00:41, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Papal Infoboxes

I have created two infoboxes, Template:infobox papacy and Template:infobox sovereignofvatican which deal with the offices rather than the people who hold them. I hope they meet with approval. Dunfermline Scholar (talk) 00:41, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Official Title of the Office of Pope

What is the actual title of the office of Pope? Is it the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church; The Supreme Pontiff of the Roman Catholic Church or something else? Can anyone help with this ,at the moment I've gone with the former but I'm not sure if its correct. Dunfermline Scholar (talk) 00:41, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I my opinion, the pope's official name should be Antichrist, but you might feel different.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.104.156.246 (talk) 02:43, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure toally myself on the terminology, but wouldn't "Roman Catholic Church" be referring to just one (which happens to be a big) constitutent Church within the Catholic structure, whose identity just happens to be ... Roman? Wouldn't referring to just the "Catholic Church" (big-C) be correct in this case? To be honest, the coat of arms and the title are redundant in light of the fact that "Pope" almost always refers to this Western Christian one, and not the popes of Alexandria etc. 202.89.153.149 (talk) 04:08, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

"Pope" does not necessarily mean the one in Rome; there are several others (Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, etc.) so specifying which one is not a redunancy. MishaPan (talk) 04:30, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, I'm not sure if this answers your question, but there seems to be some discussion going on at Style (manner of address) about titles of popes, specifically the coptic pope meamemg (talk) 04:13, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
I seem to remember reading years ago, that one of the titles of the Pope was "Ruler of the world on earth." Can anyone confirm this? MishaPan (talk) 04:30, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

No, that is nonsense.

As for the term Roman Catholic Church that name is not to be confused with the Latin Rite which is one of the 23 sui iuris particular Churches. Roman Catholic Church is used to refer to all 23 Churchs in union with Rome. -- SECisek (talk) 04:40, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes I was also of the understanding that the title of the church was the Roman Catholic Church. I also think the coat of arms etc are important- if not to distinguish between Popes purely for informative value...however have we still not worked out the title of the office? I was on the Catholic Encyclopedia and they used the title Pope. Dunfermline Scholar (talk) 17:51, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

It's my understanding that the Pope does not have one "official" title but many: Supreme Pontiff, Bishop & Metropolitan of Rome, Servant of the Servants of God, Vicar of Christ are all examples, more or less equally official. I belive that documents are usaully signed Benedict P.M. Servant of the Servants of God. P.M. is for Pontifex Maximus (Supreme Pontiff) that could therefore be called the most official, but Bishop of Rome is probably the least P.O.V. and best for Wiki usage, If any of that helps. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.16.146.33 (talk) 16:25, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree that there are many official titles, cf. http://www.ewtn.com/jp2/papal3/titles.htm. "Bishop of Rome" is clearest, simplest and least controversial, and simply "Pope" is fine. "Pope of Rome" would be clearer (distinguishing from some other "popes") but I don't think it's really used and might sound derogatory. "Roman pontiff" is used a lot by the Church. Vikslen (talk) 01:58, 11 May 2008 (UTC)Vik Slen 2008/05/10

[edit] Suggested addition under "Titles": "History"

I suggest adding the following below the first paragraph under "history" in the "Titles" section. I have already added this to the "Bishop of Rome" article.

The Christian Church prior to Constantine reserved the titles, "Vicar of Christ" and Vicar of the Lord" exclusively for the Holy Spirit, whom Jesus sent to His Apostles to complete their training (John 16:12-15). Tertullian demonstrates this fact in the following quotes.

“ Grant, then, that all have erred; that the apostle was mistaken in giving his testimony; that the Holy Ghost had no such respect to any one (church) as to lead it into truth, although sent with this view by Christ, and for this asked of the Father that He might be the teacher of truth; grant, also, that He, the Steward of God, the Vicar of Christ, neglected His office, permitting the churches for a time to understand differently, (and) to believe differently, what He Himself was preaching by the apostles, — is it likely that so many churches, and they so great, should have gone astray into one and the same faith? No casualty distributed among many men issues in one and the same result. Error of doctrine in the churches must necessarily have produced various issues. When, however, that which is deposited among many is found to be one and the same, it is not the result of error, but of tradition. Can any one, then, be reckless enough to say that they were in error who handed on the tradition?[1] ”
“ For what kind of (supposition) is it, that, while the devil is always operating and adding daily to the ingenuities of iniquity, the work of God should either have ceased, or else have desisted from advancing? whereas the reason why the Lord sent the Paraclete was, that, since human mediocrity was unable to take in all things at once, discipline should, little by little, be directed, and ordained, and carried on to perfection, by that Vicar of the Lord, the Holy Spirit.[2] ”

Tim Warner, December 27, 2007 71.100.99.165 (talk) 23:14, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and thrown it in there. Dunfermline Scholar (talk) 19:15, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested addition under Objections to the Papacy

The Objections to the Papacy section appears to address objections from a rather narrow perspective that is limited to certain Christian views. The section should include a brief note stating that certain protestant churches historically have considered the Pope to be the Antichrist, that atheists consider absurd the idea that a man can rule by divine power, and that feminists interpret the Papacy as an ultimate form of usurpation of power by an old man. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.126.151.171 (talk) 23:40, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I certainly agree with the protestant AntiChrist notion's addition to the article, atheists also find the idea of God absurd so that isn't really that notable. Can we find sources for the feminist attitude? Dunfermline Scholar (talk) 11:52, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Upon second reading I note that those issues are addressed bar the feminist and atheist attitude...so I don't think its a narrow perspective at all. Dunfermline Scholar (talk) 11:57, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cyprian was "the first papas"

As far as I can find, the first recorded instance of Heraclas being called a pope was after his term, in a letter by Dionysius. Cyprian was designated a pope years before that in 250.[1] The article is locked for me, so...? AnotherSolipsist (talk) 04:44, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] History section

I'm working on the history section. Leadwind (talk) 05:14, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed "Formation" of the papacy

To my knowledge, the Catholic church holds that the papacy was formed by Christ himself in the last year of his life (33 A.D. by their account).

Who disputes this date and why? Why would the reason given by the disputee be sufficient to trump the statements of the organization headed by the papacy? Wouldn't any organization's own historians be preferred over independent analysis on such a question? (This would be likened disputing the founding date of a corporation--the corporation itself certainly knows best as to when it was founded.)

If good reasons are not found/provided, I propose changing it to read "Foundation circa 33 A.D." (If the dispute resolves around the particular historical year of Christ's death, then "first century A.D." would be acceptable as a compromise.) for the sake of completeness and the avoidance of an unsightly gaffe in the article. Lwnf360 (talk) 09:57, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

THIS is certainly nonsense. First of all, only a few Roman Catholic theologians would say Jesus literally and HISTORICALLY founded the papacy in his lifetime (before his death??). (And very few church historians/New Testament scholars would say he died in 33 A.D.) That's more a naive popular understanding. Not a good source of objective information.

The papacy, by almost any account, has evolved so much over the centuries that it is more a theological claim than anything else even to call it the same institution as it was in the first century. I would certainly be reluctant to say Jesus made Peter Bishop of Rome before there were any Christians in Rome! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vikslen (talk • contribs) 02:11, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

On the Roman Catholic Church article they have in their infobox the founder of the Church as traditionally, Jesus. We could here follow suit with traditionally 33 AD. Gavin Scott (talk) 21:08, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] head popes

In the pope are consolidated many different descents of supposed Holy priest status.

  • 1) one is the blessing passed from Christ to St Peter to be the head of "his" /Christ's church
  • 2) another is the agreed upon blessing of Emperor Constantine when the cross appeared in the sky along with the words "in this sign you shall conquer"; with scholars agreeing this sky wide blessing upon Constantine was unique making him a blessed person / Emperor; and the church contrived a procedure to entice Constantine to yield all his authority to the church; and thereafter the Bishop of Rome would consecrate back to Constantine the right to rule ...; if you followed that, in the middle remained with the church all that blessing poured out on Constantine in effect to be the head of the earth : then, only then, after this procedure which some call the "trick of Constantine", only then, did the Bishops of Rome begin to call themselves Popes, Vicar's of Christ ....
  • 3) the pope's also assumed the high priest of Rome title that only a key aristocrat had had in the Roman times including e.g. Julius Caesar, a status as the highest priest.... that title was called Pontifex Maximus

All these posturings by the Pope, of course, do not elevate the office at all, as that is in truth only done by God.

And the actual office that could be called the "head pope" office, far higher than any pope, is the GM of PS.(see those lists and articles). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.202.166.166 (talk) 20:08, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

    • critical remarks removed by wiki during submission ?14:07, 20 April 2008 (UTC)14:07, 20 April 2008 (UTC)~~

Umm.....what? Gavin Scott (talk) 22:02, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

head pope at present is the Lord, Jesus, presaent on earth judging the nations, as confirmed by Pope John Paul in his remarks just before his death 2 Apr 2005, "I looked for you , you came to me, I thank you". /76.214.45.153 (talk) 00:00, 21 April 2008 (UTC) /~~ ~~ / 76.214.45.153 (talk) ~ / ~ 76.214.45.153 (talk)/

[edit] Wiki loses again

I just can not believe it. Every time I come to this web site to get just some factual information I alway, every single time, run into layer after layer of anti Catholic garbage. How anyone can sit there and dispute the fact that the Pope was instituted by Jesus and confered the office on Peter in 33 A.D. is well beyond me. Too many drugs on the market is all I can think. 80% of all Christian (and this is only assuming the protestants are still included in this word for indeed I dispute that claim) consider the Pope to be the sucessor to St. Peter and so the office of Pope was founded by Jesus and given to Peter in 33 Anno Domini. Oh, but self appointed pastor Billy Bob with the shack, I mean "church", out in the woods who has never even pickup a Bible in his life wants to dispute this rock solid historical fact so Wikipedia has to through a disclaimer up to appease all the hate mongers. Every time I come to this site I always find one of these reasons to never come again. I am so upset over this and countless other things that I am overriding the suggestions of all the teachers here and banning this site completely from this school. I just wish you all could finally get some backbone and integrity to stop all the non sense going on here. Deposit of all human knowledge, yah right, more like anti Catholic magnet. My students do not need to be exposed to this hate speech. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.47.43.241 (talk) 06:47, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow, I just stopped myself after a long reply, when I suddenly remembered we're not supposed to feed trolls here.--SidiLemine 17:19, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Well you just did it User:$yD!. Please make constructive edits and not engage in fighting. In answer to the original point, because some people dispute Peter's consecration as the first Pope we have to give note to that in the article. Gavin Scott (talk) 17:33, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Sorry about that, I just realised. Please accept my appologies. To the original poster, please identify "pastor Billy Bob". Also, please be advised that Protestants are consideres Christians by the vast majority of people and represent 40% of said christianity by the smallest estimations. Yours Truly, Sidi.--SidiLemine 17:51, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

You will need to show some numbers if you want to claim that protestants make up 40% of Christians. To my knowledge they make up less then 20% of Christians worldwide, oh but you Americans probably were thinking that the world stops at your boarders again. Latins clearly make up more than half of all Christians and that is even assuming that the church of Albion in protestant and not catholic as they claim. Then you have the Byzantines that are a solid 25%. So then even if protestants were all that was left you still are only 25%. But then we have to consider the Coptic church and the churches with them and the Assyrian church and we discover that all of them together out number the protestants. Many of these oriental Christians do not consider protestants as Christians by the way. So then, even if we accept groups such as JWs or Mormons as Christains, you are still less then 20% of all Christians but even fellow protestants say that JWs and Mormons are no longer Christians (how judemental of you) and so the only way for protestants to come anywhere near a number like 40% is to be racist and say the non whites are not people and thus can not be Christians or to say that Catholics are not Christians. Either way, you go way down the deep end and ignore all legitimate theological study. A large number of theologians do not accept more then half of protestantism to be Christian anymore. The Catholic Church has stated that it is possible for protestants to be Christians if they still practice baptism but something like 40% of protestants have even gotten rid of that. As to the pope thing, yah that is pretty antiChristian to claim that the office didn't originate with Peter. At the very least you have to accept it as apostalic. Even the Byzantines, who really don't like the Pope accept that. More then 80% of all Christians accept this and all the historical evidence points to it. (Yes there is historical evidence). You have to specifically ignore almost everything and cling to your own made up prerendered conclusion to say that the Pope was not apostalic in origin. Saying that the Pope is not the same office that Peter was given by Christ, or at the very least dates back to Paul coming to Rome is like saying that your president and constitution are only 8 years old. It would be like saying that Bush is really the continuation of the Roman Empire. You can claim it all you want and call yourself a historian or theologian but you are still dead wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.27.242.79 (talk) 04:40, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

The claim above that 40% of Christians are Protestant does seem a wild exageration especially when he throws in that that's a low ball figure. I therefore assume he simply means that somewhat over 40% of Christians are not Catholic, which is true. However it's my understanding that the Orthodox Christians the majority of the Non-Catholic Christian minority do believe that the Bishop (Patriarch) of Rome is the sucessor of St. Peter. They merely posit "so what". The last poster is corect up to half way through, then goes into his own strange 40% number about Protestants not practicing Baptism which is, well, strange. That's my .02$ and I'm sticking to it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.16.146.33 (talk) 17:48, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Peter's name

Why is a section titled Pope#The pope in Roman Catholic theology devoted overwhelmingly to 11 paragraphs dwelling on the origin of Peter's name? In a section with this title, in an article on the Pope, this topic is either out of place or deserving of at most a couple of sentences, and it tells us nothing about the role of the Pope in Roman Catholic theology so it doesn't belong in this section at all. —Largo Plazo (talk) 11:43, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

The Pope in RC Theology is essentially his position and power and why he has it. He has it because Jesus gave Peter the responsibility of heading the Church- by changing his name to Peter, meaning rock. Upon this rock i shall build my Church, so the origin of Simon Peter's name is of vital importance.Gavin Scott (talk) 16:44, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't follow you because you have a couple of implications of the form A therefore B or A requires B where there is no obvious relationship. (a) There is no requirement that someone's name be changed from something to something else in order for him to hold such-and-such position. (b) So say for the sake of argument changing Simon's name to Peter was important. So it happened, and the end result was the end result. There is nothing in the recounting of the details that gives the slightest sign of their bearing on the outcome. If Peter was the Pope because Jesus made him Pope, then Peter was the Pope because Jesus made him Pope. This isn't like a legal form where if you forget to check one of the boxes in Section D on page 2 you'll be charged a late filing penalty or be refused the right to enter one of the countries on your vacation itinerary. Since when were God and Jesus subject to bureaucratic rules, such that if they broke one their intentions would be thwarted? —Largo Plazo (talk) 18:34, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, I have noted what I posted was terribly written, let me try again. Names didn't have to change you're correct. However, the Pope's authority over the Church is based on the event where Simon's name was changed to Peter. Peter meaning rock-upon this rock I shall build my Church. So the event is very significant. Why? Because the foundation of the Papacy is that name-Peter. Many protestants say the rock wasn't Peter himself but rather his confession of faith. However, Catholics maintain that: if Christ was referring to Peter's Confession of Faith as the rock then he wouldn't have changed Peter's name from Simon to Rock.

What I am trying to say is, the article goes into such depth about the name Peter because it is really the only justification for the Papacy. Peter was the rock upon which Christ built his Church- it was this rock (Peter) who entrusted the keys of heaven too...I hope I was clearer that time. Oh, congratulations on the whole "section D of page 2" thing, seemed a bit of a waste of time as rather than making you look intelligent it made you look quite obnoxious and rude, but it made me laugh all the same. Gavin Scott (talk) 19:10, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad I at least made you laugh. I didn't mean to appear obnoxious and rude, but sometimes to people who are brought up with a doctrine it's all so self-evident that the lack of any obvious connection between two or more elements of the doctrine can only be made apparent by stepping outside the box with a rather less scriptural analogy. I don't mean this in a bad way: we all have our unspoken operating premises that hinder mutual understanding until someone else gets us to take a look at them from the outside. —Largo Plazo (talk) 19:24, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, well all is well. I hope I've helped you see why Peter's mere name is so fundamental to the Papacy and theology behind it and thus, why it has such a large entry. Gavin Scott (talk) 19:36, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I do understand that there is an issue, but I had to think about it really hard and finally realized that the problem is that while an explanation of the issue belongs there, the explanation that's there really needs to be rewritten. It's highly disorganized. It doesn't begin with a thesis statement explaining the point of all the details that are being displayed, something to the effect of what you told me. Until you explained it, I had never known and couldn't get from the article that Peter's traditional role as first Pope relies so strongly on this semantic twist! In the sort of way that I described, this section was written from within the box, assuming the reader already knows the context to which the details apply. It's also entirely too detailed, in my opinion, and sentences like, "If Jesus had wanted to call Simon a small stone, the translation of Christ's Aramaic into Greek would have been "lithos," which means "small stone" in Koine Greek" clearly read as an injection of some editor's viewpoint, an attempt to establish a purely speculative argument as dispositive fact. —Largo Plazo (talk) 12:04, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, I shall try and fiddle about with it. Gavin Scott (talk) 21:55, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Protection Tag

Does the semi-protection tag need to be there? I know it helps non-users who wish to contribute to the article understand why there is no edit tab on the article, but it really does look ugly, I know its not a huge issue, but isn't there some sort of alternative that doesn't lessen the opening of the article? Gavin Scott (talk) 01:12, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article Title

Given the existence of the Coptic Pope, among others, how is it NPV for this article to be titled simply "Pope"? Wouldn't "Pope (Roman Catholocism)" or something to that effect be more appropriate for an article dealing exclusively with the Bishop of Rome? 161.253.21.166 (talk) 21:55, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Other pope titles can be found in Pope (disambiguation). The disambiguation link is aptly placed at the top of the article. --Jacob.jose (talk) 11:28, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Park East Synagogue visit

Very brief but very touching. Shalom! 204.52.215.107 (talk) 16:42, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Papa Pope Leaving JFK

8:00 PM 20 Apr 2008, Pope Benedict XVI leaving JFK, thanks for your visit papa Pope.

/willie jr 76.214.45.153 (talk) 00:05, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] list of black popes

The head of the Jesuits used to be called the "black opope" due to 1) the Jesuits, including their leader, always wearing a black frock and 2) the larger size of the Jesuits' community and their wider influence. Shouldn't then a listing of these "black popes" be included at the end of the article where various lists are included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.162.178.52 (talk) 19:23, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

See Superior_General_of_the_Society_of_Jesus#List_of_Superiors_General for that list. --Dhartung | Talk 07:15, 27 April 2008 (UTC)


I suggest, that erase Slovene Wikipedio, because he doesn't have respect to pope. --213.250.22.238 (talk) 18:20, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

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