Wikipedia talk:Dispute resolution

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[edit] Scentura

A single purpose account, continues to delete several dozen references in Scentura, attempting to whitewash this pyramid scheme.

The article recently went through a WP:AfD in which the same lame reasons this single purpose account uses was voiced, and the community overwhelming decided to keep this article.

My question is what is the fastest way to stop this editor from removing dozens of references?

This is not vandalism per se, and all of the WP:Dispute resolution solutions seem pretty tame and not adequate. Would page protection work?

Thank you in advance. Calendar 18:03, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Hello, i have a similar problem with a site that has a number of new features based around online web TV. I believe it has a place within the description of free web TV especially after seeing an entire page dedicated to MSN. I would like to find out how I can insert information about the travellerstv.com online network into the free web TV section. thanks

[edit] being stopped from 'talking'

How on earth does one talk on talk pages about a dispute when one has been blocked from joining in because one is a newbie? See the Simon Wessely talk page. Angela Kennedy Angela Kennedy 23:46, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

That is largely the fault of an abusive editor who was using alternative accounts to create mayhem on the talk page you are referring to Talk:Simon Wessely. You will notice that your account has now been autoconfirmed, and you can edit freely. JFW | T@lk 21:05, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Conflict resolution flow chart

Hopefully everyone does this.
Hopefully everyone does this.

Hello, I created this flow chart for flow chart and thought it might also come in useful here. Since this is an official policy page I am putting it here for incorporation by the larger community if they feel it is justified. Triddle 08:03, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for doing this! I just came here to write that I find the sequence provided has some major flaws, and your chart offers a refreshing alternative. It's a pity no one has started discussing it yet. Well, let's begin, then. (Disclaimer: My comments are mostly based on mediating in ethnic conflicts, so they may not apply to all conflicts.)
  1. Design: I would prefer if you did not break up the arrows with "yes" and "no". This makes the chart appear more complicated than it is.
  2. I love the first question "can you stay cool?" - it really gives people a choice and takes them by their pride. When you just tell people, as this page currently does, you have to take a break first, they feel only pressured. Most people who go to mediation do not have the mindset for a break at all.
  3. "Shower them with Wikilove": I think this is way over the top. I would be so happy if everybody who reaches mediation were just willing to cooperate. I think this is the right moment for the box "Try to form a consensus on the talk page".
  4. sock puppets: Cut this decision. People who are familiar with Wikipedia will know it already, and newbies don't need to worry about this. — Sebastian 05:05, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

(unindent) It's a pity there seems to be nobody who wants to talk about what sequence we should recommend. I thought a bit more about it. Here's a table of the sequence I would prefer. Final stages have a yellow background, as in the flow chart above:

# Question If Yes ... If No ...
1 Can you stay cool? Try to form a consensus on the talk page Disengage for a while
2 Has a consensus been formed? Success! -> line 3
3 Are they being disruptive? hand over to WP:AN Choose between one of the options of step 3 or "further steps"

[edit] Merge Step 3 and Further dispute resolution

In this edit, the "Editor assistance" section was moved up because the editor felt that "this is something to consider before further dispute resolution ..." I subsequently renamed that step to "Third step: Bring in an outside editor".

However, I now realize that these two changes don't make sense. Section "Further dispute resolution" contains a subsection "Discuss with third parties". There is no real difference between bringing in an outside editor and discussing with third parties, in particular, as the latter contains such processes as Request for Comment. Is there any consensus for telling people they need to ask for Editor assistance before they can consider options like Requests for comment or MedCab? — Sebastian 09:04, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge part of Avoidance section into Step 1

Not only does Avoidance include "discuss it on the talk page", it even contains several instructions for how to talk. Is there any reason to keeping this in a separate section? — Sebastian 19:37, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I also propose to delete the advice "Be respectful to others and their points of view". I can't imagine anyone coming to this page to decide if they should or should not be respectful to the other party. More likely, this well-intended finger-wagging will backfire: From the reader's perspective, it naturally will point right at the other party as per Matthew 7:3. — Sebastian 20:10, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Carrying out proposed changes and more

I now carried out the changes as proposed above. While I was doing so, it became a bigger endeavour than I had anticipated. There was some redundancy in the existing text; and some topics were scattered haphazardly over several sections.

Above all, I rearranged the first few steps and numbered all but the last from 1 through 6. Maybe step 1 and 2 should be swapped, but I didn't dare to go so far without a discussion, and I can think of some good reasons not to do that. I did, however, put the truce in a step of its own because the current text clearly specified that it needs to come before asking others. Maybe we could include that in step 4.

Most of my wording changes were in the first 2 steps and the first paragraph of step 3. The only changes in the other steps that might affect the policy are:

  • split up Ask ... into "Ask about the subject" and "Ask about a policy" because they have little more to do with each other than with the other options.
  • Regarding Wikipedia:WikiProject, I added "Usually, such projects are listed on top of the article talk page."
  • Moved formal mediation up so it's now next to informal med.

I deleted the following non-trivial or not obviously redundant texts:

  • "Avoid going back to the page of dispute. Respond to questions about it on your user talk page and direct the questioner to take their issues to the article talk page to keep all relevant discussion in one place." This conflicted with the text "The first resort in resolving almost any conflict is to discuss the issue on a talk page, you may even post the proposed content on the talk page. Either contact the other party on that user's talk page, or use the talk page associated with the article in question. Never carry on a dispute on the article page itself.", and in my experience, it doesn't make a significant difference on which talk page the discussion takes place. (Except, of course, if the page is mediated.)
  • "Wikipedia works by building consensus. To develop a consensus on a disputed topic, you may need to expose the issue to a larger audience." This is mostly redundant with the text "If talking to the other parties involved and taking a break fails, you should try one of the following methods to resolve the dispute. Which ones you choose and in what order will depend on the nature of the dispute, and the preferences of people involved.". The link to consensus is nice, but not as important as the link to WP:NPOV, which is already in the intro.
  • Deleted link to Wikipedia:Protection policy from "see also". We already have a link to WP:RFPP, which I think is more helpful to someone who is in a panic. That page of course links to Wikipedia:Protection policy in its intro.

I hope that I was able to make this page clearer and that it now more straightforwardly addresses editors who are often under particularly heavy stress and may not have the patience to read the whole policy. Overall, I took care not to delete anything that is a policy; other than the link to WP:PROT I did not delete any links to policies or guidelines but rather inserted new ones where appropriate. — Sebastian 00:24, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Truce

The wording was "If you have not agreed to a truce before this point, you should do so now." I had shortened this to "Negotiate a truce - see Wikipedia:Truce", but I now realize that it now clearly states that it's part of the policy, where before, it was fuzzy. (I find the word "should" should not be used in a policy. It doesn't clearly say if it is necessary or not and doesn't offer any criteria. Hence, it leaves this decision entirely up to how much an editor responds to a guilt trip.) Because Wikipedia:Truce is not a policy, I assume it was meant as a recommendation and tone it down to "Consider negotiating a truce". — Sebastian 01:11, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Community enforced mediation

Can we add WP:CEM? We could just use their first paragraph, or does someone have a better idea? — Sebastian 05:43, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I think WP:CEM should be added, but perhaps with a succinct and clearer description of what it is and how it differs from other available means for mediation. Askari Mark (Talk) 02:51, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
How is this for a possible draft?
"Where content disputes arise between experienced editors with opposing and strongly held viewpoints, it can become very difficult to keep a balanced perspective and hold on to an assumption of good faith. The quality of the debate can quickly descend into personal attacks. If a pair of editors tend to find themselves treading down that path and want outside help to do so, they can pursue an “enforced truce” by means of Community enforceable mediation. In the WP:CEM process, the editors themselves, with the assistance of a mediator, formulate an agreement regarding the norms to which they wish themselves to adhere with community help. It can cover editing behaviors or how they will agree to treat controversial material. The benefit is that the editors themselves work out how they want to deal with their issues, rather than having “time-outs” or other penalties imposed upon them."
I'm thinking it might best be added to the end of the Discussion (Step 4) section since it's more focused on working things out between editors than with outside help (just outside enforcement). Askari Mark (Talk) 23:05, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mediation or Arbitration

There needs to be a clear distinction made between Mediation and Arbitration. At one stage, I was advised to go to Mediation for problems with an editor. I did so but after a while I was finally informed that Mediation doesn't cover disputes on user conduct. It covers disputes about article content.

The dispute resolution page gives a clear impression that the process goes through Mediation and then up to Arbitration, but this is wrong. The text should state clearly that:

1. disputes about article content go to Mediation

2. disputes about user conduct go to Arbitration.

Sardaka (talk) 10:20, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I think you're quite right. Something's been bothering me about this at the back of my head, and you've put your finger on it. Askari Mark (Talk) 03:41, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
No, that's not it. We would prefer people using other methods from this page before requesting arbitration. Wikipedia:Arbitration_policy#Scope says:

Where a dispute has not gone through mediation, or the earlier steps in the dispute resolution process, the Arbitrators may refer the dispute to the Mediation Committee if it believes mediation is likely to help.

Step 6 lists several methods to apply when you have problems with other editors:
What's bothering me - and this may be the same that's bothering you - is that the user has to make a complicated choice with little information. If even we don't readily see such an important criterium as where to go to complain about what then it's certainly too complicated. BTW, that's why I proposed creating a generalized emergency page WP:911 this morning here. — Sebastian 06:18, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

If "community enforced mediation also allows user issues", what is the procedure for this?

The above statement "Where a dispute has not gone through mediation etc etc," doesn't seem to help much, since other statements make it clear that requests have to go through the normal channels, RfC etc. Scope makes it clear that Arbitration covers disputes between editors, not article content issues.

In any case, the Dis. Res. page does nothing to make this clear. "If Arbitrators may refer a dispute to the Mediation Committee" -- if this is the case, it isn't spelled out on the Dis.Res. page. Regardless of what the Arbitrators may do, the fact is that we are expected to go through normal channels first, but they don't make it clear that mediation is normally for content and Arbitration is for conduct. These things should be spelled out clearly on the page. I was told to go to MedCab and then waited ten weeks for a verdict before someone finally told me that MedCab isn't for disputes like that, so I just wasted ten weeks.


Sardaka (talk) 10:27, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm very sorry that you had this disappoinment with MedCab. I would like to talk more about this with you. Would you like to bring it up on Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal or would you rather send me e-mail?
Re content vs conduct: This was never explicitly decided. It's just that some mediators feel that way, but we don't have a fix rule, and I don't think we should. I could bring it up on our talk page. If some mediators feel that way, they just don't have to accept such cases. I personally don't have any problems taking a personal case. My guess is that people may feel that other methods, such as the ones I listed above, are more effective. But if that's the case then we should make this clear on this page, WP:DR, and not come up with a halfhearted rule on MedCab.
With regard to "If Arbitrators may refer a dispute to the Mediation Committee": Do I understand you correctly that you feel it should be spelled out? Why? — Sebastian 11:32, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
For the procedures of community enforced mediation, please see WP:CEM or ask people there. — Sebastian 11:35, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I would think it's obvious that these things should be spelled out clearly on DR, to stop people wasting their time, like I wasted my time, and not go round in circles etc. Your above comments may all be accurate, but they don't help people if they are not spelled out clearly on the page.

The statement about arbitrators referring a case to mediation if it hasn't gone through the early stages seems to be circular, ie how do you get to the arbitrators in the first place if you haven't gone through the early stages?

I agree that the way it is at the moment is too complicated, and things need to be spelled out better. As it is at the moment, there's nothing to stop people from having my experience, because nothing is explained clearly.

DR at the moment says that Rfc is the normal way to go, and Wikiquette Alerts are only for uncivil editors.

(I will talk to you directly about my experience.)

Sardaka (talk) 12:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that what is needed is explanation in a few stages, eg:

A. an outline of the informal options like, Wikiquette, AN/I, Village pump etc.

If this is not enough, go to:

B. Mediation if the dispute is about article content,

OR

C. Arbitration (preceded by RfC) if the dispute is about user conduct.

Then maybe people won't go up the garden path like I did.

Sardaka (talk) 10:49, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] RFC/U is disputed.

Please see WP:VPP#WP:RFC/U - time to get rid of it?. Will (talk) 18:16, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] General conflict resolution question

I have a general question regarding the conflict resolution steps. I'll phrase this question as a hypothetical even though it is based on an actual case. Suppose a dispute involves applicability to a particular case of some basic WP policies, such as WP:NPOV and WP:OR. Suppose that, in the view of one of the parties, the other party's edit represent a very clear violation of these policies, but that neither party is willing to yield or change their mind.

Does it make sense to request mediation (formal or informal) in this case? Or should one try to proceed to arbitration right away? Or is there some other quick way to deal with a particularly clear case of a WP policy violation? I'd appreciate any advice from experienced editors. Regards, Nsk92 (talk) 14:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Step 6: Turn to others for help

Step 6 seems to disagree with this other article: Wikipedia:Canvassing#Forum shopping. Which is true? --Chuck Marean 11:30, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WP:MEDCAB & WP:3O streamlining

After discussion with many people off wiki about this subject i felt it would be a good idea to see if there is widespread consensus for this to happen. These two methods of dispute resolution are similar but differ mainly in that 3O deals with disputes between two editors and MEBCAB deals with multiple editors. I felt that the referral between these two groups should be streamlined to allow quicker referral from one to the other. Although this does exist in the form or a suggestion on the WP:3O page and there is no such suggestion on the MEDCAB page. What i am proposing is a direct referral process, so that what multi party disputes posted at WP:3O can be quickly and efficiently be passed on to WP:MEDCAB and vice versa with regards to 2 party disputes. Given that most content disputes 99.99% of the time have to go through MEDCAB before going on to MEDCOM it seems a sensible idea. This could happen by the referral by the cabalists and 3O contributers themselves with a message on the parties concerned informing them of the referral. Seddon69 (talk) 18:33, 12 March 2008 (UTC) message also posted at MEDCAB and 3O

[edit] No Original Research / Noticeboard

I just added WP:NOR/N to the list of noticeboards; I hope no one objects. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 22:19, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What If None of the Steps of Dispute Resolution Work?

What happens when dispute resolution doesn't work? You try all the steps about content, and nothing is different at the end than at the beginning. Arbitration is only for conduct issues. Wikipedia seems to only enforce policies about conduct; policies about content are not enforced. Life.temp (talk) 09:35, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

It depends on the cause of the content issue. If you believe that someone is adding information to Wikipedia that is factually incorrect, then that's a conduct issue, as an editor is violating WP:V. If they're adding information that gives undue weight to a particular viewpoint, such that the article violates Wikipedia's policy of neutrality, then again, that's a conduct issue (an editor is violating the neutrality policy). You're right though that it's usually easier to enforce policies about conduct (incivility, disruption), than neutrality. But ultimately, any content is added to Wikipedia by one or more editors, and if they are violating policies, then that's Wikipedia:Tendentious editing, which can be dealt with, either by blocking the editor that's doing it, or possibly requesting a community ban which prevents them from editing in certain topic areas. In order to really deal with an editor who is inserting bad content though, you need to have other editors who agree with you that the content is bad. If other editors look at the situation, and their opinion is, "Well, the editor is using reliable sources, they're interpreting them properly, they're not violating neutrality, they're explaining controversial edits, and they're participating in discussion with other editors in a civil and collegial way to ensure that the article properly reflects consensus", then there's probably not a conduct issue. In such a case, if you still disagree with content, your best option is to expand the article to include an alternate point of view, to ensure that you are basing your own information on reliable sources, and to articulate your concerns at the relevant talkpage. See also Dealing with disruptive editors.
Bottom line: It depends.  :) If you can provide more specific examples though, especially to articulate what the exact problem is, and which steps in Dispute Resolution that you tried, we can give more specific advice. --Elonka 15:12, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't think violating neutrality or verifiability, etc. is a conduct issue. If you go to ANI with complaints about that, they will tell you admins don't resolve disputes about content. In practice, content issues are converted into conduct issues is through edit warring. At that point, "the authorities" get involved, but that's not really a resolution to a disgreement over content, per se. The specific example that has led me to this topic is my attempt at dispute resolution in the anti-Americanism article. It is about to be rejected for formal mediation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation/Anti-Americanism. In other words, the last step has been tried, and the article as it stand violates many policies about neutrality and original research. Life.temp (talk) 01:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Edit warring by user: R.Tabor on Suzanne Olsson article

Hello,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:R.Tabor is engaging in edit warring on the article Suzanne Olsson and Jesus bloodline.

I have cited a source whereby the person in question claims to be a descendant of Jesus Christ here: http://www.theseekerbooks.com/articles/ToMcG.html

and R.Tabor keeps deleting it. He is not stopping. I have attempted to take the matter to the Talk Page but he is refusing to co-operate. Thank you, Wfgh66 (talk) 19:06, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


[edit] EDIT WARS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mir_Jafar kindly someone look at it. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by HumayunMirzajr (talk • contribs) 06:41, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

It appears that the above user is cut-pasting a personal commentary in the article, over long-standing referenced text. The user has also not participated in any discussion there in the last 8 months or so, and his last claim was refuted by the his own references. --Ragib (talk) 07:12, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Not really, lets have a proper discussion or remove the bits / wrong facts and edit it with the right facts.
His facts actually exist in the Library in the Museum. HumayunMirzaJR (talk) 17:22, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
This isn't the place to report such a thing. This kind of thing is what the WP:AN3R board is for. --Nn123645 (talk) 15:02, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dispute resolution viewed as 'optional'

Discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#WP:AN_is_not_a_step_in_dispute_resolution seems to indicate that some administrators view Dispute Resolution as "optional" and that they can take "alternative" steps if they want to.

Perhaps some more explicit language needs to be added stating that all editors and administrators are expected to follow Dispute Resolution? --Barberio (talk) 00:41, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Exit lists issues on Interstate 5 in California, U.S. Route 101 in California, and Interstate 80 in California

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