User talk:Justmeherenow

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[edit] Wanita

The add of this information is interesting -- though I am not sure why it is interesting, it just is. However, it may not be quite in keeping with wikipedia policy regarding original research. I am not going to remove or revert it because I sort of like it, but it would be better if you had a source other than your personal memory. --Blue Tie 13:03, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

My memory from Quicksand & Cactus read 2 1/2 decades ago was faulty. Her mother Mary Hafen Leavitt hadn't named Brooks Wanita but Waneta as verified from the 1910 census. --Justmeherenow 01:39, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Creation of multiple pages with same information

Welcome to Wikipedia and thank you for your contributions. Unfortunately, some articles you recently created contained the exact same text as other articles you created, this does not conform to Wikipedia's guidelines for new articles, so they were removed. Additionally, the article needs to be reviewed by an experienced editor regarding the objection posted by Gwen Gale regarding it being a data dump. Please do not recreate the material during the review process as it will be deleted. Thank you --Trödel 01:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nauvoo Legion

The emigrants weren't murdered by the Nauvoo Legion, but by local Mormon militia. Pleae provide verifiable citations from reliable sources if you wish to assert that the assembled militia at MM was NL, thanks. Gwen Gale 22:29, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vigilanteism

My PoV is why pussyfoot around with describing murder as vigilanteism but not brigandry? Young's/ Kimball's sermons circa 1857 supported vigilanteism and its incidents that arose were neither investigated nor prosecuted. And I think vigilanteism and brigandism are pretty synonymous - with California very extensive atrocities of the same period giving us the first term. Anyway, anybody reading between the lines can see *) Young's granting stock on the trail to Paiutes, **) Indian agents Hamblin and Lee - whether under orders from Salt Lake or taking initiative themselves - gathering up Paiutes to threaten and thereby extort livestock from various trains to illustrate either "Young's" or else these essentially lawlessly vigilante elements of the territories' ability to implement or withdraw protection against Indian attacks upon American settlers at will ***) Several trains' being raided in this manner ****) From out of this mix: Mountain Meadows' brutalities with regard the Baker-Fancher companies' train.
And this all under the cover of the militia's only having wanted to protect the trains: what a hoogabaloo!
Yet if the article's naming of Higbee implies Lee's a scapegoat, the numerous previous acts of ruthlessness alleged to Lee within his duties as a constable, et cetera, supports history's judgment of him as a rather unsavory character. --Justmeherenow 20:54, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Response to Q about MMM

Both Denton and Carleton believe that envy the party's wealth was a factor. I am not going to say "No, way-Impossible" but I will say, I don't think so. My take on the world is that a surprising number of incidents where you would think class envy is a factor, turns out to not to be. When class envy does turn out to be a factor it is coupled with other factors usually more serious. Many a lower class has been devoted to obscenely wealthy royalty and celebrities, even obstinate jackasses. The breaking point in most revolutions has been for other reasons that make the lower class say "enough"Davemeistermoab 20:01, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] RFC

I invite your comment here. Hipocrite - «Talk» 19:10, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lengthy quotes at MMM

Hey, just a quick thought: those quotes you just added to Mountain Meadows massacre are pretty long; I wonder if it might be better to post them to the talk page first and ask for help in summarizing them or quoting smaller bits that will fit better into the article. They just seem a little overwhelming given their size. What do you think? alanyst /talk/ 22:51, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I will take a look. I did note that the footnotes are quite extensive in quotations. I believe I understand the rationale behind that in getting buy-in on the certain elements of the article. Now that the discussion has died down, it may be time to pare down the quotes and just rely on the footnotes.
There is a citation template I will try out on one or two to see if it helps. I will also try the refname= option to enter references once and use them multiple times. It does not allow for the specific page numbers to specific usages, but might also be helpful. I used it on the article on Deaconesses to slim it down. The template also helps on editing, as it makes it easy to see the inline refs. Just a few thoughts at lunchtime. I will look tonight. --Robbie Giles 19:45, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Take a look. I collapsed two refs into one and dropped the direct quotation.
  • I did not hyperlink to the actual newspaper article, as it is password protected by the publisher. Anyone wanting a copy can get it with the specific citation listed.
  • The same for the quotation, I left it out. It forms the backdrop of the first paragraph and readers or other editors can verify using the citation. Putting the quotation in with your synopsis is redundant.
If you don't like this edit, just revert to the previous. I will hold off on any further collapsing until I hear from you and other interested editors. --Robbie Giles 01:05, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Another editor (User:Tinosa) si questioning the reformatting because it loses the page numbers. Here is my answer, you can decide if you want me to continue, discuss it further, or revert some or all of the changes.

I was asked to help in formatting footnotes by one of the authors who put in many of the footnotes. I am using the Wikipedia:Citing sources article as a basis. I am also using the ref name= for subsequent references to the same material. Yes, unfortunately it loses the specific page numbers. If you feel this is hurting the article, I can certainly stop. We can revert back to an edit prior to when I started. No information is being changed. Generally when writing a sourced paper, the information from the sources is incorporated into the text of the article. It is not necessary to quote it in the footnotes. An encyclopedia article is intended to present information and verifiable sources. Should the reader care to, they can easily verify the information contained in this article from the footnotes. I'm done (stick a fork in me) tonight anyway. I'll check tomorrow evening to see if there is opposition before I attempt any more.

I'll check back later this weekend to see if more work is needed, or if I should suspend. --Robbie Giles 05:22, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Archived photo of child survivor

In the process of editing, I think I wiped out one of your edits accidently. You now have another one, so I can't just revert my changes. It is this one: 20:11, June 19, 2007 Justmeherenow (Talk | contribs) (67,635 bytes) (→Surviving children - "see archived picture of survivor")

I will get out of the article now, as I was just checking citation links, etc. Hope you can retrieve it. --Robbie Giles 03:30, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Background MMM

I have a question for you here about the article. Thanks. --Robbie Giles 12:55, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Polishing

I will start reading sections of the article and making changes in my sandbox. When I have anything to propose, I will put it on the talk page at MMM. There are two areas I know I want to tackle first. Sorry this is so long, but I want to give you the background.

[edit] Nauvoo Legion

I am attempting to find a copy of the declaration setting up the territorial militia by the Utah Territorial Legislature, which I believe names the state militia the "Nauvoo Legion." Several editors are adamant that the NL was not involved. I believe that sources will show this stance is incorrect. See Nauvoo Legion and Utah History Encyclopedia. The NL article in Wikipedia refers to this as a private army of B.Young, but I believe this is a mis-statement, as it was actually the Territorial Militia. BY may have treated and used it as private, but there is enabling legislation.

[edit] Paiute Perspective

I have another book I am finishing now that gives oral history information from the Paiute perspective on the massacre. I hope to write a short paragraph telling the "Paiute version." I think this is the fourth leg of secondary sources.

  1. Speeches, diaries and oral histories of witnesses or non-participants Mormons (Brooks has a wealth of these)
  2. Participant diaries, testimonies, confessions (Brooks, Lee, Bagley, and Denton)
  3. Federal reports (already cited in the article and available online for reference)
  4. Oral histories of Native Americans

It is my opinion (remember, never humble) that native accounts are as valid as any of the others. When conducted and researched by trained historians and social scientists, they constitute a reliable source to be considered. Brooks refers several times in her work to "Mormon tradition." She saw this as important, and it was her field of study. She spent decades gathering, documenting, and recording information to serve as background for her book. History of Utah's American Indians does the same for tribal tradition.

Cuch, Forrest S. (2000). History of Utah's American Indians. Salt Lake City: Utah State Division of Indian Affairs : Utah State Division of History : Distributed by Utah State University Press. ISBN 0-913738-48-4. OCLC 45321868. 

Book review from Western Historical Quarterly 32(4) 2001:

As Utah prepared to commemorate its statehood centennial in 1996 and sesquicentennial of Mormon settlement in 1997, the state legislature authorized several projects, including publication of a four-volume comprehensive history of Utah, and of a twenty-nine volume county history series. Utah's Native American leaders petitioned for funding for an additional publication detailing their important place in that history. This volume is the welcome result.

The editor, Forrest Cuch, also serves as director of Utah's Division of Indian Affairs. As a Ute Indian raised on Utah's Uintah and Ouray Reservation, Cuch was committed to presenting tribal history from the perspective of an insider. He declared: "The time has passed for non-Indian people to speak for us about 'our past,' about 'our history.' It is now time for us to bring forth the truth as we know it to be, and share it with others" (p. xi).

Cuch involved Utah's six modern tribes in every aspect of the planning and preparation of the volume. Chapters concerning the Northwestern Shoshone, Ute, and Navajo were written entirely by tribal members, while chapters detailing Goshute, Paiute, and White Mesa Ute history were coauthored by non-Indian historians and tribal representatives. Each chapter feels separate and distinct, yet unified by a standard format and skillful editing.

The authors were asked to document their people's creation legends and folk stories, pre-contact life ways, first non-Indian contacts, and the impact of railroads, the military, and Caucasian (mostly Mormon) settlement on their lands. Each history includes a chronological summary of important events, and analysis concerning the impact of government treaties and programs, including the Allotment, Reorganization, and Termination acts.

The chapters not only draw from scholarly sources traditionally used in tribal histories, but also include rich information obtained through Native American oral histories and access to private tribal archives. The text is strengthened by inclusion of 138 excellent period photographs. Several of these poignant images appear in print for the first time in this volume. While most photographs are carefully identified and cited, one image showing a woven wickiup is used twice, to illustrate both Paiute and Ute structures (pp. 125 and 166).

The volume includes excellent beginning and ending chapters, which place the tribal histories in perspective, and discusses recent and largely successful challenges asserting Native American rights and sovereignty in the state.

Utah State Historical Society historian Allen Kent Powell, who helped coordinate this project, feels that the tribal histories "represent a beginning point much more than an ending point in understanding Utah's first residents" (p. vii). Perhaps so, but it is a very commendable start worthy of emulation.

Scott R. Christensen Church Archives, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

That's it for now. I will notify the MMM talk page as I propose substantial edits. They can be cussed and discussed before implementation. Thanks for asking me. --Robbie Giles 15:59, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good edit

This is good:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mountain_Meadows_massacre&curid=170807&diff=144611155&oldid=144606153

Though I am not quite sure about the wording "led an auxilliary contigent", I think it is a vast improvement over my original wording. I particularly like how you described the swearing to secrecy of the participants as a factor in the delays. I think it was critical. --Blue Tie 15:06, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Duplicate images uploaded

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[edit] License tagging for Image:Younger Brigham Young.jpg

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[edit] Inclusive editing on MMM

Thanks for trying to explain the process of editing a subject at a time. I guess it just isn't working, but we will see. It makes it so much easier to critique an edit if you actually see what was changed and/or added, but I'll survive with the wikipedia way. --Robbie Giles 05:58, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Brigham Young.jpg

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[edit] St George Spectrum quote in Mountain Meadows massacre?

Hi - About that quote -- could you provide a cite? Also, what about the NPOV issue? (Please respond at Talk:Mountain Meadows massacre#"memorials at Mountain Meadows" - Memorial service story). Thanks. Guanxi 13:54, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I'm lurking now

My short break is three-fold. I am actually watching the edits being done to catch anything way off. There are lots of new (to me) faces working on the article. Second, I took a new job and am working long, weird hours. Once I have all the new students workers hired and our new staff member on board I go back to my usual day shift. I'm waaaay too old to work until 11:00 pm. Three more weeks and I'm back to my regular routine. I am, however, racking up a great deal of compensatory time for use at Winter break. Oh, and the third thing is that we spent parts of two different weeks in Tucson taking our daughter to her orientation and the beginning of school at the University of Arizona. She's beginning her freshman year there. (A tiny tear rolls down my cheek.) I will take north-central Idaho climate over Tucson any day.

I still want to work on the Paiute portion and finish answering some questions on the Fancher Baker train. Bigler actually has some comparisons on how many whites and natives took part. He compares the different books done and the witness statements. I plan to incorporate that.

Thanks for your kind words, and for checking in on me. --Robbie Giles 13:24, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

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[edit] MMM article

I think the article is still not very good. The breaking off of details into other articles has not really improved it. --Blue Tie 17:14, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I think you did the right thing by breaking the details into sub articles. The article was getting too big and too complex for the average wikipedia reader. There will NEVER be an MMM article that will please everybody. Too controversial of a subject. But I think this is a step in the right direction. I've been devoting my time to highway and railroad articles lately (finding working on articles that are less of a war-zone is more rewarding). But, if you would like my help please advise. Davemeistermoab 05:56, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] December 2007

Welcome, and thank you for experimenting with Wikipedia. Your test on the page Mitt Romney presidential campaign, 2008 worked, and it has been reverted or removed. Please take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. If you would like to experiment further, please use the sandbox. Thank you. —Remember the dot (talk) 01:54, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

(replying to message on my talk page) - This sure looks like an editing test... —Remember the dot (talk) 02:25, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
(replying to message on my talk page) - Oh, OK. —Remember the dot (talk) 02:47, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

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[edit] Template:Giuliani

Rudy Giuliani already has a navigation template at Template:Rudy Guiliani, so your template is a bit redundant. I've updated the other template with the information that you created, though...--Bobblehead (rants) 01:56, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Ditto on Template:Romney that you just created. Mitt Romney already has Template:Mitt Romney. I'm not sure how beneficial two navigation templates that cover the exact same template are. Perhaps instead of creating new navigation templates you should work on improving the existing ones? --Bobblehead (rants) 02:16, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
I've nominated all four templates for deletion, but have hopefully made it clear that only two should be deleted. Please join the discussion here. --Bobblehead (rants) 03:18, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ummm

You may want to remove the content within the parenthesis at the end of this comment [1]. It is generally not conducive to constructive discussion to comment negatively upon a fellow editors cognitive ability. --Bobblehead (rants) 21:17, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

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[edit] Speedy deletion of Allen West (retired U.S. Army coronel)

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[edit] Speedy deletion of Template:Mountain Meadows massacre

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Thanks. --MZMcBride (talk) 22:01, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Replaceable fair use Image:CheFlagGate.jpg

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[edit] Comment on Obama campaign article

I've reverted your addition to the Obama campaign article's talk page as being unhelpful. Sarcasm does not translate well on text and, frankly, your comment was completely inappropriate. Please attempt write your responses in a manner that is conducive to building consensus. --Bobblehead (rants) 05:29, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ralph Nader

Cool! I didn't know that he was running. He just announced that, right? Basketball110 what famous people say 21:40, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

How many times is that? Basketball110 what famous people say 21:52, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Wow. He's really not helping anyone (e.g. Al Gore, Obama) on the Democratic side (and possibly McCain). Basketball110 what famous people say 22:03, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright infringement

Please do not add links on articles that violate an entities copyright privileges as you did here.[2] CNN is the sole copyright holder of the debate and the posting of clips on YouTube are not used with the permission of CNN, so they violate their copyright privileges. --Bobblehead (rants) 23:14, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Some editors actual try and make better consensus pages

hard as it is to believe right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.0.180.2 (talk) 08:04, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What about sourcing that the video was said to help campaign

Huh? →Wordbuilder (talk) 01:27, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rudy "segments" nav box

I see you are adding a Rudy Giuliani "segments" nav box similar to what has been done for John McCain. However, there is a difference. In the McCain case, his entire biographical account has been broken down into subarticles, which read in sequence form a detailed biography. Hence the "Life of John McCain" title in the nav box. With Giuliani, that is not the case; only three periods of his life are represented in subarticles, with other parts (early life, prosecutor, post-mayoral businessman, etc) only described in the main article. Thus, reading the subarticles in sequence will not give you the "life" of Giuliani. Therefore, I don't think this approach is valid for Giuliani (or most other political figures we have articles for). Wasted Time R (talk) 15:43, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

WP guidelines say not to delete work in progress towards improving Wikipedia --Justmeherenow (talk) 15:49, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Nobody's talking about deleting anything. I'm just saying I think you are misapplying what was done for McCain to the Giuliani articles, and I wanted to give you the rationale for its use in the McCain case. Another article that uses this "Life of ..." nav sequence is Jan Smuts. Wasted Time R (talk) 16:05, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm pasting this discussion to templates' talkpages. Thx --Justmeherenow (talk) 16:13, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Justmeherenow, with all due respect, you've completely misunderstood the purpose of the McCain bio nav box, and now you're adding them to the Hillary and Obama articles for no useful purpose. I'm going to have to put them up for deletion, just like the previous side nav boxes were deleted. Wasted Time R (talk) 04:45, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate your belief that navigation boxes should only navigate among subarticles that have received content shunted off from main articles, rather than navigate among sub-articles in genera, but isn't the appropriate place for this discussion isn't on my own talkpage but on the templates' talkpage where our discussion has commenced? --Justmeherenow (talk) 05:10, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sun front.jpg

please do not tag images with speedy deletion and replaceable fair use when 2 users (including an admin) reverted your attempts to tag this image as replaceable fair use, this image is not being used in the infobox for Prince Henry of Wales, and it seems unlikely the Sun will release a cover page of their newspaper under a free license. This image cannot be replaced with a free alternative, continued misuse of tags in such a manner could be considered vandalism. Shifthours (talk) 16:36, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

User:Rettetast is an administrator, he is perfectly justified in closing the rfu request. The image in question was actually nominated for deletion before (and kept), however it was re-uploaded under a different name, I don't have the link to the old discussion. Shifthours (talk) 16:53, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Speedy deletion of MMMSeriesSegmentsUnderInfoBox

A tag has been placed on MMMSeriesSegmentsUnderInfoBox requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A3 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is an article with no content whatsoever, or whose contents consist only of external links, "See also" section, book reference, category tag, template tag, interwiki link, rephrasing of the title, or an attempt to contact the subject of the article. Please see Wikipedia:Stub for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources that verify their content.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. ukexpat (talk) 22:50, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] U.S. Tulsa race riot

I can hardly forget something I have never known :o)--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 03:37, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

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