Talk:Aramaic language

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[edit] Jesus

Jesus spoke a western Aramaic dialect? Leaving aside the occasionally raised question of whether he was a real person at all rather than an allegorical figure or suchlike, are we sure? That's an awfully confident assertion considering he left no writings or, um, audio recordings.

I'm not trying to be contentious, it just seems to me there's, if not an NPOV issue, at least a question of evidence here. I'm not saying we (archaeologists as a group, Biblical scholars as a group, the West, whoever) aren't as certain as one can be about this sort of thing, but the way it's worded now the reader has to take it, as it were, on faith.

Would "Jesus is believed to have spoken...." or "Jesus most likely spoke...." be too weak or offensive or non-neutral? --Calieber 12:48, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Changed phrasing to: "A Western Aramaic dialect was the spoken language in Roman Judea in Jesus' time". Corrected name of village. -- Jeru
In fact, we do know that Jesus spoke a form of Aramaic; the gospels, though written in Greek, give several quotes from him in Aramaic specifically, most famously "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" (My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?) and "Abba" (Father) and "Talitha cumi" (Arise, girl.) So the original statement was justified. - Mustafa

However, the "Aramaic" on Cyprus is in fact an Arabic dialect, and has no place in the article - Mustafa

Why does it say "a professor" without saying who it is? Michael Hardy 00:52, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Garzo, much has changed since the scholarship of the early half of the last century. Now Hebrew linguists believe Hebrew was a spoken language during the Roman Period of Israel. For example: "The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church that once said in 1958 in its first edition, Hebrew 'ceased to be a spoken language around the fourth century BC', now says in 1997 in its third edition, Hebrew 'continued to be used as a spoken and written language in the New Testament period'". Hebrew was a spoken language during Jesus's lifetime. Haldrik 02:25, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] changed

I changed "10,0000 native speakers" to "10,000 native speakers" since I assume this is what the author meant (ie took out the extra zero). If the author wants to go back and add the zero, please ensure the comma is in the right place :)

[edit] FYI

An interesting FYI, this article has been linked to from Yahoo News at http://movies.yahoo.com/news/fc?d=tmpl&cf=fc&in=entertainment&cat=the_passion I don't know if this has or will be done for other wikipedia articles, but I think that is really pretty cool. Congratulations to those working on this page... Brettz9 21:51, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV!

'dirty turkish bastards' is obviously not NPOV...

Obviously right. I reverted to an earlier version - the recent changes were to the worse of the article. Not only the obvious POV of a greek cyrus nationalist, also the addition about language of Jesus are at least bad formatted. As I have no real knowledge about this language I choosed the last version which look obviously good - but maybe I removed some valid information by that, so feel free to look into the history and re-add what I deleted too much. andy

[edit] Jewish Aramaic: To-do

The following texts should be mentioned: The Targum Onkelos (and maybe also the other Targumim) and the place of Targum in Torah study; legal declarations/documents like the ketubbah, the "Kal nidré"="Kol nidrei", Erub declarations, Bi'ur chamets declaration; and prayer texts like the Ashkenazi "Yequm purqan" and Cabbalistic (mainly Ashkenazi) "Berikh Shemeh demara alema" (or maybe not, since the Zohar is mentioned already)... -- Olve 04:41, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Towards a more structured approach

The current article does not make the relation between different Aramaic languages very clear. Unfortunately, it is often the case that 'Jesus Aramaic' can take over (perhaps it needs a separate section or page), and the breadth and history of the language is lost.

I reckon that Ma'lula Aramaic is quite clearly a Modern Western Aramaic, but I often see it described as 'Syriac' or 'Eastern'.

I hope nobody minds if I attempt to put some more structure and scope into this article over the next couple of days. Of course, all feedback is welcome.

Gareth Hughes 23:05, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Go for it. I've often thought the article could use some expansion, but never gotten around to it... - Mustafaa 23:48, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have started a subpage in my userspace. If anyone would like to have a look at what I am proposing for the 'Aramaic language' article, or has any comments, sources or extra information, please go to User:Garzo/projects.

Gareth Hughes 23:11, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think we shall need to rewrite a family of related articles:

  • Articles on Aramaic languages (e.g. Mandaic language).
  • Broader themes in Aramaic, like:
    • Biblical Aramaic, referring to the Aramaic of the Hebrew Bible only.
    • The 'Aramaic of Jesus', dealing with various, difficult issues about his language and Aramaic words and phrases found in the New Testament.
    • An article titled 'Jewish Aramaic', or some such, to deal with the Aramaic of Targum, Midrash and Talmud.

I feel that it would be more helpful to have a single article on Aramaic that deals with the broad historical and linguistic details, and then have these seperate articles for more information on specific areas of interest.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Are there any good suggestions for the names for 'Aramaic of Jesus' and 'Jewish Aramaic'?

Gareth Hughes 20:50, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've uploaded a completely new article for 'Aramaic language'. I'm sorry that I deleted most of the content from the previous version, but I felt that it didn't have enough structure to it. I think that this new article is too long, so it could do with some pruning. I just hope you're not too offended.

Gareth Hughes 23:48, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hey, this is great! An excellent rewrite, which I much appreciate. - Mustafaa 11:46, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Featured article candidate

I would like to nominate this article to be a featured article, but it lacks images. Does anyone know of any images of texts written in Aramaic? Or are there any other pictures that would illustrate the article well? – Quadell (talk) (help)[[]] 19:59, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)

Tomorrow or the day after, I may be able to take a picture of an Aramaic magic bowl (wot, no article?) at the British Museum. There's a Syriac sentence pictured in Syriac language. - Mustafaa 20:31, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Nice pic, Ganzo! I look forward to yours as well, Mustafaa. – Quadell (talk) (help)[[]] 16:25, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)
Just added the Bar-Rakib ingot... I've also got some more magic bowls and some short Palmyrenean inscriptions, but I think they might be overkill at this stage. - Mustafaa 00:05, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Great photo, Mustafaa, the writing is nice and big and legible. Gareth Hughes 18:19, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)


[edit] Sound changes

Great section, but I have doubts over two points:

  • especially those influenced by the pronunciation of Western dialect Modern Hebrew : I'm not sure what you're saying here.
  • Dental/sibilant shifting — This is a process that has been going on for millennia. Dental consonants (t, d, θ, ð) shift into sibilants (s, z and sh) and back again. surely this is three unrelated sound changes: the decay of PSem th, dh, followed by the rise and fall of the spirant allophones of plosives? - Mustafaa 13:36, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Good call, Mustafaa! I was trying to fill out that section off the top of my head. I wanted to say something about the loss of emphatics, but wasn't quite sure (hence the vague comment). I also wanted to point out the Proto-semitic fricative correspondence to sibilants in Hebrew and dental stops/fricatives in Aramaic, and tie it in with a shift to sibilants in Neo-aramaic. It was all a bit of a muddle: thank you for clearing it up.

Do you think the vowel-change section could be expanded? I just thought it was too big to deal with in the article.

I notice that the article is very long now. Do you think some of the material here could be shifted into sub-pages? I was thinking along the lines of Biblical Aramaic, the Aramaic of Jesus (which I've made a rough start on), 'Jewish Aramaic', and something on the Neo-aramaic languages.

Gareth Hughes 16:30, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The vowel-change section? Man, if we just did the Tiberian vowels for Biblical Aramaic that would be an article in itself! But other dialects might be easier to summarize. Such a section could start from the vowels of Proto-Semitic and work forward... Certainly some material could be shifted to subpages; Neo-Aramaic, for instance, could easily be expanded into an article in its own right, and as you said, the Aramaic of Jesus could be shifted into that article. But it's hard to decide what to cut. - Mustafaa 17:41, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Addition of a template of Jewish links

I don't feel that the addition of this template is useful to an already overlong article focused on linguistic and historical matters. I have suggested a page on 'Jewish Aramaic' (or something like that) to go into the place of the language in Jewish religion and culture. My suggestion has been made on various related talk pages. I know that the removal of someone's work isn't to be done lightly, but I do feel that this addition is really unnecessary. I suggest that appropriate text could link to appropriate articles on Jewish Aramaic, or a new one to cover that subject. Please feel free to air thoughts on this matter here.

Gareth Hughes 12:47, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] The Lord's Prayer

The latest edit was the addition of the Lord's Prayer, the text is below. I'm not happy with it for a number of reasons:

  1. The article is already very long: new material has to be worth it.
  2. No explanation of the text is included.
  3. The Peshitta is in Syriac, and Jesus is presumed to have spoken Old Galilean Aramaic.
  4. The text here is given in square script: the Peshitta is written in the Syriac alphabet.
  5. The Peshitta version is based on Greek texts.
  6. The English translation is over simplistic (particularly in the translation of Syriac tenses).
  7. Matthew or Luke?

In its present state, this addition is misleading. All sorts of things are claimed about Aramaic, particularly by ill-informed Christians. This makes it important that the linguistic facts are presented clearly, and not in such a confused manner. A possible solution would be to include the text in a more relevant article (Lord's Prayer, Peshitta or Aramaic of Jesus), use Syriac script and either a standard English translation of the Lord's Prayer or an accurate one. Gareth Hughes 14:18, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The text is as follows:

The Lord's prayer in aramaic as per the Syriac Peshittâ

אַבּוֻן דּבַשמַיָא Our Father who is in heaven,

נֶתּקַדַּש שמָך Your name will be sanctified,

תִּתֶּא מַלכּוּתָּך Your kingdom will come,

נֶוֶא צֶביַנָך Your will will be (done),

אַיכַּנָא דּבַשמַיָא As that which is in heaven,

אָף בּאַרעָא Also on the earth,

הַב לַן לַחמָא Give us bread,

דּסוּנקָנַן יַומנָא That we need, today,

ושבוּק לַן חַובַּין And forgive us our debts,

אַיכַּנָא דּאָף חנַן Also as we,

שבַקַן לחַיָבֶין Forgive our debtors,

ולָא תַּעלַן לנִסיוּנָא And don't cause us to enter into temptation,

אֶלָא פַּצָן מֶן בִּישָא But rather deliver us from evil,

מֶטֻל דּדִילָך הִי מַלכּוּתָּא Because you own the kingdom

וחֶילַן ותֶּשבּוּחתָּא And the power, and the glory,

לעַלֶם עַלמִין Forever, eternal,

אַמִין Amen (Truly)

Mea culpa. I shoud have look for a better article for this. I will move the text to Lord's_Prayer#Aramaic. And BTW, it is Mathew's. --Zappaz 16:45, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Sorry about that, Zappaz. I can get a little shirty where Aramaic is concerned. A certain film has made Aramaic popular, and I believe that it's important to get as much good, factual information about on the web. You must have put in a good deal of time with the unicode. If you're interested, the Syriac unicode escape code values start in the 800s. I like small animals and smile rainbows. Gareth Hughes 17:15, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 4,000-year history?

The opening sentence says Aramaic has a 4,000-year history. Wouldn't 3,000 be a more accurate figure? Or am I missing something? --Iustinus 00:09, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Mea culpa! The recorded history of Aramaic runs for fewer than 3,000 years; there is evidence of Aramaean settlements that date from before the earliest extant inscriptions, but that evidence does not go back as far as 4,000 years ago. Good catch! Augustinus Gareth Hughes 10:23, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Any thoughts about how this article might look on the Main Page?

As this is now a featured article, it can appear on the Main Page. What do you think of this abstract? Gareth Hughes 16:37, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Silver ingot of Bar-Rakib son of Panammu, king of Sam'al

Aramaic is a Semitic language with a 3,000-year history. It is the original language of some parts of the Bible; it has been the language of administration of empires, and the language of divine worship. It was probably the language of Jesus, it is the language of the Talmud, and it is still spoken today as a first language by numerous small communities.

During the twelfth century BCE, Aramaeans, the native speakers of Aramaic, began to settle in great numbers in modern-day Syria, Iraq and eastern Turkey. As the language grew in importance, it came to be spoken throughout the Mediterranean coastal area of the Levant, and spread east of the Tigris. Jewish settlers took the language with them into north Africa and Europe, and Christian missionaries brought Aramaic into Persia, India and even China. From the seventh century CE onwards, Aramaic was replaced as the lingua franca of the Middle East by Arabic. However, Aramaic remains a literary and liturgical language among Jews, Mandaeans and some Christians, and is still spoken by small isolated communities throughout its original area of influence. The turbulence of the last two centuries has seen speakers of first-language and literary Aramaic dispersed throughout the world.

Excellent. Go for it. --Zappaz 17:36, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The lead section

I really don't like the two edits that have been made to the lead section: they are simply bad English. I want to keep the lead section as a good bit of prose, and these edits tear into it in some search for a hidden bit of neutrality. The lead section originally read:

Aramaic is a Semitic language with a 3,000-year history. It is the original language of some parts of the Bible; it has been the language of administration of empires, and the language of divine worship. It was probably the language of Jesus, it is the language of the Talmud, and it is still spoken today as a first language by numerous small communities.

I think that is fine and good. ZZyXx changed it to:

Aramaic is a Semitic language with a 3,000-year history. It is the original language of some parts of the Tanakh, the Talmud and the Bible. It has been the language of administration of empires, and the language of divine worship. It was probably the language of Jesus and it is still spoken today as a first language by numerous small communities.

The change is obvious: the simple word Bible is replaced by the list of Tanakh, Talmud and Bible. Whether Jewish, Christian or other, most readers will understand what is meant by Bible. I did not use the phrase Hebrew Bible because of the clash that comes when the meaning is openned up: some parts of the Bible written in Hebrew were written in Aramaic. Tanakh is really just an acronym for the same thing, and is understood by few non-Jewish readers. I felt that Bible was the right word, as we're talking about the Book of Daniel and the Book of Ezra, really. Those books are in the Hebrew Bible and the Christian Bible, so why split hairs?

The compromise revision by Jayjg is:

Aramaic is a Semitic language with a 3,000-year history. It is the original language of some parts of the Tanakh and most of the Talmud; parts of the New Testament may have originally been written in Aramaic as well. It has been the language of administration of empires, and the language of divine worship. It was probably the language of Jesus, and it is still spoken today as a first language by numerous small communities.

The term Tanakh is used again, and we have made New Testament visible. I think that this is worse. Bringing Aramaic primacy theories of the New Testament right into the lead section is wrong to me: I'm happy just to say "probably the language of Jesus" on the Christian side of things.

I hope I don't get accused of being anti-Jewish: I wouldn't appreciate that at all. I am trying to write a good encyclopaedia article on the Aramaic language. I looks like the Bible argument has spilled over into this article, and I don't like it. Let's hear a range of comments on this, please. Gareth Hughes 22:53, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I can live with "some parts of the Bible"; my concern is that it actually gives too much weight to the "New Testament in Aramaic" theory. The part about the Talmud was wrong, though; most of it is written Aramaic, but a lot is in Hebrew, particularly in the Jerusalem Talmud. Jayjg (talk) 23:40, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The body of the article does make it clear that the Talmud is in Aramaic, and actually goes into the different layers of Aramaic that are built into it, with some pieces of Hebrew. I still think it's fair to say that the Talmud is in Aramaic: it is its main language, and the language of its architecture. Hebrew is only used in Biblical quotations, and some of these are from Targum, and some older midrashic material. Perhaps it would be easier if we say what we mean: "It is the original language of a large section of the Book of Daniel and the Book of Ezra" and "It is the main language of the Talmud". Then, at least, we are all clear about what we are saying and what we are not saying. Gareth Hughes 23:58, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Hebrew is also used in the Talmud for all of the Mishnas and Baraithas, which is a significant amount of material. Also, the Jerusalem Talmud sometimes uses mixed Hebrew/Aramaic. In any event, I like your latest idea. Jayjg (talk) 00:14, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I too like that latest edit, I would now just swap two sentences so it would become:

Aramaic is a Semitic language with a 3,000-year history. It has been the language of administration of empires, and the language of divine worship. It is the original language of a large section of the biblical books of Daniel and Ezra. It was probably the language of Jesus, it is the main language of the Talmud, and it is still spoken today as a first language by numerous small communities.

ZZyXx 23:34, 2005 Mar 22 (UTC)

Yes, I think that this edit is a lot better. This article has featured status, and it is on hold for the main page, so I feel that it most important to get the lead section worded correctly. I'll edit in the last suggestion. Gareth Hughes 12:22, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Turkish persecution?

I know this is controversial, but it is also important. When I completed the timeline, at the end of February, I included an event in 1915 marked Turkish persecution. Having set up the articles on various Neo-Aramaic dialects, I realised just how important this event was. It is part of the controversial Armenian genocide. This reference was recently removed as "propaganda". Feeling that the used hadn't properly addressed the issue enough to warrant the deletion of the event, I reinserted it with the slightly less controversial title Persecution in Turkey. I am not anti-Turkish, in fact I am going to be in eastern Turkey this August, but I do feel that controversial issues should not simply be deleted. Can we reach a consensus? --Gareth Hughes 15:22, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I suggest linking it to Assyrian Genocide (if you can get that article into shape...) Certainly this has to be mentioned; several dialects became nearly extinct as a result, if I recall correctly. - Mustafaa 03:09, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Of course we can reach consensuses? (consensi? I don't know :) There is no mention of the "persecution" in the article text, it is all I object to. If it was a landmark event in the development and/or extinction of Aramaic, you have all the reasons in the world to include it in the timeline. But this also begs the question, why isn't there a mention in the article text if it was "an important event"? On another note, what most people fail to realize is the land was not called "Turkey" then. It was "the Ottoman Empire". This is in no way to deny or ignore the wrongdoings of the Empire, but we as Turkish citizens (attention: not "Turks"), at least the more educated ones, try to distance ourselves from the wrongdoings and misdeeds of a monarchist/feudal regime that was toppled by Ataturk and the nation. Turks are the majority of Turkish Citizens, which also includes Kurds (nearly 20% of population of Turkey), Armenians, Levantines, Greeks and Arabs. For all practical intents, we can assume Turkey was founded on October 29, 1923, with the declaration of the Republic, whereas the abovementioned peoples were already mixed and lived in harmony for centuries, and continue to do so up to this day. With respect, mu5ti/talk 05:29, Apr 16, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Lakota Aramaic

I recently had the opportunity to discuss with several Lakota (aka Sioux -- but try to say Lakota) their shock and surprise that for certain parts of the Aramaic dialogue in the film Passion of the Christ they did not have to look at the subtitles in order to understand.

They addressed this to their local council, and they, in turn, contacted Icon, Mel Gibson's production company. The reply was also very surprised in tone, as the filmmakers had not at all looked at Lakota language, but instead to scholars, linguists and modern Aramaic-speakers in order to as accurately as possible present the language as spoken at the birth of the Common Era.

Any chance of someone looking into this further, and possibly adding something to the main article?

Benn M. 08:17, 2005 Apr 18 (UTC)

It's a nice story, and, until they say which words and phrases are similar in the two languages, it will remain a romantic story. It might be better to add this to the other stuff on the Passion of the Christ article. We could talk about Welsh being just like Hebrew — well, some words sound the same if you're half deaf! --Gareth Hughes 09:29, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Klaus Beyer

Recently the following was added to the article. It might have a place there eventually, but I think this point needs discussion first, I think.

[NB: This article represents one scholar's opinions on Aramaic dialects (Klaus Beyer, Die aramäische Texte vom Toten Meer, Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1984. The most relevant sections are in the English edition The Aramaic Language (1986). Beyer is an authority, but his views are disputed.]

The problem is mainly that the crucial phrase 'his views are disputed' should be substantiated before adding a serious-looking caveat like this. — mark ✎ 22:17, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I thought it was fair to point out that this article uses Beyer's classification system: the article says so, and the references give the source. However, that is different from saying that the article's content is based on Beyer. I used Beyer to start with because his system of dividing Old/Middle/Modern Aramaic is clearly based on whether the language is no longer used, an extinct literary language or a modern spoken tongue. There are other classification systems, but they all use quite odd choices for the division between Old and Middle dialects. Beyer is generally disliked for placing the end of Old Aramaic's period later than other classifications. I feel that stating which system is being used is sufficient: the article doesn't need to be clogged with all the rival ideas. I think this works. --Gareth Hughes 23:00, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Aramaic word for God

The Aramaic word for God is alôh-ô (Syriac dialect), which comes from the same Proto-Semitic word (*'ilâh-) as the Arabic and Hebrew terms; Jesus is described in Mark 15:34 and Matthew 27:46 as having used this word on the cross (in the forms elô-i and êl-i respectively).

Twice I have removed this paragraph from the article. The first time it was in the lead section, I think. I've just removed it from the Jesus section. I removed it for a few reasons:

  1. The Aramaic word for god is not very interesting, and the fact that it similar to that in other Semitic languages is not significant: so are many other words.
  2. That's a West Syriac pronunciation, and for no reason.
  3. Those words from the gospels are in Greek transliteration: that is a significant point.
  4. The texts in question are given a reasonable coverage in Aramaic of Jesus and another article, which I can't remember.
  5. This paragraph is saying nothing more than, "Here's an Aramaic word, in a pronunciation a few centuries later than we're talking about (probably, who knows?); it's a bit like some other words, and a bit like some words written in Greek letters spoken by Jesus", or am I missing something?

--Gareth Hughes 23:06, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Excellent points all. Jayjg (talk) 23:06, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Fully concur. — mark ✎ 07:18, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Neo-Aramaic

Shouldn't it be noted that present day Levantine "Arabic" is an offshoot of Aramaic? Or would this discomfort the many pan-Arabists who only see it as a "dialect" of Arabic? The relationship between Aramaic and the Levant language has even been pointed out in the article on Lebanese Arabic, so it might make the page on Aramaic a little more complete and interesting if it mentions that a form of Aramaic is actually still spoken by several million people.

Well, it is an interesting point, but Levantine Arabic is still Arabic. I've bumped into a few Aramaic words in Levantine Arabic, but this is all one would expect for an Arabic dialect that displaced widely-spoken Aramaic. The influence of Syriac-speaking Maronites probably enhanced this feature in Lebanese Arabic. However, it stretches the point to call these dialects 'forms of Aramaic': the bulk of their grammar and vocabulary are still very securely Arabic. Gareth Hughes 08:51, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, then this article contradicts the Wikipedia article on Lebanese Arabic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_arabic

Which seems to be echoing what is argued on this page: http://www.abcleb.com/lebanese/article.htm

- Habibo

Well, I disagree with both articles. The Wikipedia article is flagged as needing attention. It is obvious that Lebanese Arabic is different from classical and standard Arabic: enough to say that they are different languages. However, that doesn't mean that Lebanese is not Arabic: many colloquial Arabics differ more from the standard. It is absolutely wrong to say that Lebanese is Aramaic: the only features of Aramaic grammar that can be seen are those shared with Arabic anyway. However, it is reasonable to point out the importance of Aramaic in the formation of Labanese dialect of Arabic. Gareth Hughes 18:26, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Why did Aramaic become a lingua franca?

The Arameans themselves never held an empire. So why did their language become the lingua franca of the Ancient Near East? Or were the Assyrians ethnically Arameans? It would be helpful to have information about this in the article. RCSB 14:51, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Aramaic reached what could be called lingua franca status in the 8th century BC. The total domination of the Assyrian Empire over Aram/Syria was in the reign of Tiglath-pileser III, but parts of the region were under Assyrian control before his time. It is very unhelpful to introduce comments about ethnicity into this picture: ethnicity is a rather subjective feature after all. Assyrians spoke Akkadian, which, although it is a Semitic language like Aramaic, is completely incomprehensible from it. Inscriptions from Gozan indicate that, perhaps from the 11th century, eastern Aramaic had developed a powerful, flexible phonetic orthography. The versatile language of the majority of the population of the Assyrian Empire led to Aramaic's use as a lingua franca, and the eventual relegation of Akkadian cuneiform. --Gareth Hughes 16:40, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Thanks! Why don't you add this to the article? RCSB 17:06, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hebrew naming conventions

Urgent: see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Hebrew) to add your opinions about this important matter. Thank you. IZAK 18:15, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The language of divine worship

It has been…the language of divine worship.

I'm just wondering - is there any language, anywhere, at any time, that hasn't been a language of divine worship? This is poetic for the lead paragraph, to be sure, but superfluous. And to say the language... gives kind of short shrift to all that non-Judeo-Christian worship out there. I'm not going to change all the hard work that went into this, but still. -EDM 21:22, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

The definite article in the first clause seemed to make sense when I wrote it, so I mirrored a definite article in the second clause. I can see your point though. --Gareth Hughes 22:46, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] More Movie Trivia

(doesn't seem to be mentioned yet - feel free to remove this clutter if it is); There are at least two other movies that have references to the (ancient) Aramaic language (w/r religeous elements):

- Fallen [1] where the demon Beelzebub manifests itself and speaks in Aramaic

- Stigmata [2] where the reincarnation of Father Gianni Delmonico speaks in Aramaic (and there are references to the "original Gospels by Jesus Chris" in Aramaic).

- Already extensively mentioned of course was "Passion of the Christ" Martixer

I wouldn't say that the Gibson film has 'extensive' coverage in the article: it is mentioned in one short paragraph halfway through the article. The other films you mention are not really significant to the language: they are significant to their fans. I feel it more appropriate that the article covers the historical fact of the language than some cobbled together fiction. --Gareth Hughes 14:22, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Modern languages

Sorry about adding the graf on the modern languages at the top. I went looking last night for a list of them and couldn't find them. I hadn't seen the box at the bottom.--Cam 19:02, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Assyrian

aramaic language is a big error all these socalled aramaic language are derivation from the assyrian language which is known by the assyriologists as akkadian language. the akkadian language expression is used to indicate both accents of the assyrian accent(northern accent) and thebabylonian accent (southern accent), who are very similar (dictionary of akkadian language in arabic). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.175.172.138 (talk • contribs) 07:34, 23 January 2006.

No. That is completely wrong. The Akkadian is a different Semitic language to Aramaic. Aramaic supplanted Akkadian as the administrative language of the Assyrian Empire, and some Akkadian words are used in the Aramaic of the period. However, you are correct to say about Babylonian and Assyrian dialects of Akkadian. Tagging a true statement onto the end of a false one, does not make the false one correct. --Gareth Hughes 10:41, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
May I aske where did you guys come up with the figure of 445,000? Chaldean 00:41, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Number of total speakers

I would like someone to add sources for the number of total speakers (445,000). I, myself, calculated the number of speakers, according to ethnologue, and I got between 542,000 and 544,000. CG 15:39, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Ethnologue just looks inaccurate to me. And there numbers is based on 1994?
Hi, i have found two sources about the number of speakers of the Aramaic language. the one repeats the worlds of a professor in California [3], and the second has general information about the language [4]. they both estimate the number to be around 1 million. i do not know if they can be considered more reliable than ethnologue, but i thought they are interesting... --Hectorian 05:02, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
The numbers game for Aramaic is a difficult one. Modern Aramaic has splintered into many mainly mutually unitelligible dialects spoken by small communities in remote places and throughout a diverse diaspora. Also, many people use various Middle Aramaic dialects for religious purposes: religiously educated Jews, Syriac Christians and Mandaeans often could be described as fluent in these effectively extinct dialects. The Amarauna site above is completely misleading as it only deals with Christian Neo-Aramaic, and it does not give sources. The other estimate, even though it is only mentioned in passing, is given by Yona Sabar, who is in a good positon to give a fair estimate. I would support his estimate, which is more likely accurate than adding the various figures on Ethnologue. — Gareth Hughes 12:26, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What are these scripts?

Could someone clarify me what are those four scripts used at the top of the infobox in the yellow part? CG 19:04, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Please could someone clarify the four scripts used to name Aramaic: ארמית Arāmît, ܐܪܡܝܐ Ārāmāyâ, and the IPA pronuncations. CG 19:47, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Aramaic history: candidate for merger?

Shouldn't Aramaic history be merged into this page? Todowd 16:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Oppose I think this is a bad idea. The article on Aramaic history (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) was thrown together with bits from this article and a few others. — Gareth Hughes 16:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Mergers should be done if and only if the two topics truly overlie each other. Fix the poorly written article on Aramaic history rather than merging. Williamborg 15:21, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose I think with a little work it could make a good stand-alone daughter article.--WilliamThweatt 15:27, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose I agree with William, it needs works.סרגון יוחנא
Time to remove merge notice. — Gareth Hughes 20:52, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The first body paragraph

"the native speakers of Aramaic, began to settle in great numbers in modern-day Syria, Iraq and eastern Turkey. " - Some sources please? And was it by their will or were they forced by the Assyrian empire? You can't just migrate into an area without an empire knowing about it, right? Chaldean 03:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

That paragraph mentions that this is a twelfth-century-BCE settlement of people identified as Aramaeans in the area that is today occupied by Syria, Iraq and eastern Turkey. Assyrian sources first mention Aramaeans in 1112 BCE, which places it in the reign of Tiglath-Pileser I. The Assyrian records depict the Aramaeans as coming from the north and settling in areas west of the Euphrates. The Assyrian Empire clearly knew about the Aramaean settlement and documented it. It seems that the migration took place over an extended period. — Gareth Hughes 14:38, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no move. -- tariqabjotu (joturner) 00:51, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Aramaic language → Aramaic … Rationale: An article about a language should not have "language" in the title unless it is meant to disambiguate … Please share your opinion at Talk:Aramaic language. — Lemegeton 11:45, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
Not true. It reads: "Languages which share their names with some other thing should be suffixed with "language" (...)". The adjective of Aram/Aramaeans is "Aramaean", "Aramaic" is only used for the language of the Aramaeans. No need for disambiguation, let's keep it simple. --Benne ['bɛnə] (talk) 17:06, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Aramaic is also used to describe a writing script that was the base for many other scripts. In addition it appears to be used in some other limited ways. So it is not clear that this is the only use. Vegaswikian 23:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support per above. --Benne ['bɛnə] (talk) 17:06, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose, per Vegaswikian. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 23:45, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak support. Vegaswikian and Calgacus seem to be misinterpreting the current guidelines (and I don't think the derivatives listed by William Thweatt below are sufficient to require automatic disambiguation, as the last two, at least, are not genuinely distinct usages - I'm sure there's an Esperanto New Testament, as well, and I think even the script would not be referred to as "Aramaic" on its own. That said, my devotion to this particular naming convention is limited, so I'm not strongly in favor of the move. john k 00:03, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose - if where going to move this page then lets move all of the other language pages, starting with French language Chaldean 13:38, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
That's different. French is a disambiguation page, with lots of articles to disambiguate, whereas Aramaic redirects to Aramaic language. --Benne ['bɛnə] (talk) 18:57, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I dont mind Aramaic being turned into a disambiguate page. Maybe list Aramaic Language, Neo-Aramaic and all of the dialects. Chaldean 22:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Oppose The OED says that either Aramaic or Aramaean can be used in the general sense of "belonging to Aram", although the first is specifically used of the language. And their first quote is "Translations of the Old Testament into the East-Aramaic language." I see no reason to spoil a standard pattern; most editors will link to [[Aramaic language|Aramaic]] whatever we do here. I can be persuaded by a reason to change, but I don't see one. Septentrionalis 17:34, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments
  • Comment - I tend to agree with the move, however, "Aramaic" does have other uses besides just describing the language. Some possible disambiguation issues might occur with:
  • Aramaic script/Aramaic alphabet
  • Aramaic New Testament
  • Aramaic Democratic Organization website
There are others but these are the most common. If nobody sees this as a problem or can address the issue, I'd prefer the language article to just be named "Aramaic"--WilliamThweatt 19:25, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] Aramaic preservation

Aramaic is an endangered language, but really its an endangered language family, how different are the different modern aramaic languages, and which ones have the most chance of surviving? I ask because I hope to learn one and teach it to my children, but if theres no hope, I'll teach 'em something more useful.

This should maybe be added:

"Preserving Aramaic, which nobody in Maaloula has written for tens of generations, has become something of a cause for Syrian president Bashaar Assad his government supported the establishment of an Aramaic language school in 2003.about 150 students between the ages of seven and 50 are now taught there by staff of 10 teachers."

http://www.syriatourism.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=367&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

--83.72.194.208 22:39, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

If a language is spoken by hundreds of thousands of people how could it be considered endangered? I can only come up with the explanation the number of speakers is rapidly dropping: the large majority of speakers are bilingual and don’t rise their children in that language. How is the situation of Aramaic?

2007-03-10 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.

Hi Lena. A few hundred-thousand speakers does make a language endagered, especially when Modern Aramaic is really a group of related languages rather than a single, monolithic one. The various Jewish varieties, Modern Mandaic and Western Neo-Aramaic are seriously endagered. The Christian varieties are faring slightly better, but the effect of diaspora is making some negative impact on the language. — Gareth Hughes 14:58, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Appearantly, the word ”Aramic” standrs for a group of three languages: Mandaic, Neo-Aramic and Christian Aramic. How many speakers does the three languages have? Are their numbers rapidly dropping for the reason I mentioned? If a language has hundreds of thousadns of speakers and the number is relatively stable it is NOT endangered. You may as well claim that Icelandic is ”endangered” since it has 300,000 speakers. The Icelanders are wery protective of their language and their number have probably never been higher. Consequently, you don't have to fear the extintion of Icelandic.

2007-03-15 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.

[edit] Will Shortz error calling Aramaic a dead language

Will Shortz made an error yesterday (2006-12-17) on NPR's Weekend Edition/Sunday's puzzle segment yesterday. For the two-word phrase "dead languages," Will gave the clue "Latin or Aramaic." This article shows that Aramaic is a language family, and it is endangered but not extinct. I referenced this article in my synopsis of this puzzle to point out this error.[5] Thank you. r3 13:25, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Aramaic is a group of closely related dialects that could be, and often is, considered to be a single language. You are correct that it is not quite dead. john k 16:11, 10 March 2007 (UTC)



not only that Aramic isnt dead, many words and terms in Hebrew are in pure Aramic, and some people in isreal (more then you would think) can read and talk this language perfectly, (just wanted to mantion) Omer.

[edit] Is anybody fluent

Is anybody here fluent in Aramaic; I would like to translate some angel names. Contact me through my talk page, and leave me a message. Thanks. Lighthead 07:04, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

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