Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Georgi Kinkladze/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted 01:51, 19 May 2008.

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Georgi Kinkladze

Self-nom. This article about a Georgian footballer has been developing over the past few months, going through a GA nomination and two peer reviews. When it went through GA it lacked the comprehensiveness required for FAC, but thanks to the efforts of User:Jhony his later career in Russia is now well covered and a free image has been obtained. I believe it is now ready for FAC. Oldelpaso (talk) 20:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Some minor comments

• Derby section: "missing Derby's five starting matches of the 2002–03 season." I think "missing Derby's first five matches of the ..." would sound better
• Rubin Kazan section: I might be wrong but shouldn't recurrance be recurrence?
  • Yes to both of the above, now fixed.
• Are there any more images you could use?
  • Not free use images, apart from this barely usable one. As there's not really an iconic photograph of Kinkladze I don't think a fair use one would meet the non-free content criteria.
• And is there anything else on his personal life, or life outside football? Peanut4 (talk) 21:22, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
  • There is surprisingly little in the public domain, even in the 200 page biography I have a copy of. I thought about a "personal life" section, but as it would have resulted in a stubby section I decided to put the appropriate information (homesickness, marriage, car crash) as it occurs chronologically. Oldelpaso (talk) 21:41, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Just for the record, some important things about him are not in the press, at least in Russian and English languages. I was unable even to find a statement about his retirement from football and I had to use another footballer's words instead to prove that. Jhony (talk) 23:11, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Issues resolved Giants2008 (talk) 19:47, 16 May 2008 (UTC) 

Comments

• "his performances for Georgia against Wales in the 1994-95 season." Season implies that the matches were part of a league. Try to reword it.
  • Reworded.
• "Cypriot club Anorthosis Famagusta in 2004, where he won the Cypriot championship." First, he didn't win the title; the club did. Second, there are two uses of Cypriot. Adjust one of them. Also, link Cypriot First Division if you can.
  • Revised on both counts.
• Early life: Link Georgia at first use.
  • Done.
• Is mtiulur misspelled? The link leads to it being spelled mtiuluri. It is in italics as well. Is this correct?
  • The reference used "mtiulur" but a quick Google test overwhelmingly favours "mtiuluri", suggesting the reference got it wrong, so I've changed it. The italics are per Wikipedia:MOS#Foreign_terms.
• Early career: "a smaller club playing at a lower level". This looks redundant.
  • I don't think this is redundant - big clubs can play at lower levels (e.g. Leeds United or Hellas Verona) and small clubs can play at the top level (e.g. Wigan Athletic or Chievo).
• The two matches against Wales could use citations. Are these meant to be referenced later?
  • These are covered by the final ref from the preceding paragraph, but it had not been repeated. Now fixed.
• Manchester City: Manchester Evening News should be in italics.
  • Done.
• This could be cleaner: "On the final day of the season the supporters used the match against Reading to campaign to keep Kinkladze at the club". Try this: "At the final match of the season against Reading, Manchester City supporters campaigned to keep Kinkladze at the club".
  • Changed to your improved wording.
• Commas before and after first mention of Joe Royle?
• "including a freak own goal from Jamie Pollock" Commas before and after. Giants2008 (talk) 03:50, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Both sets of commas done. Oldelpaso (talk) 17:15, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose - I found a lot more problems in the middle of the article, leading to my decision. Before I start, one cleanup note from the previous round. While making changes in response to my comments, you de-linked Reading F.C.. This should be linked again.

• Ajax: Should Maradona be linked in the quote? Non-football fans might not understand the quote fully without it.
• I'd also like to see loan linked.
• Derby County: "until a groin injury sustained in the return match with Middlesbrough kept him out for two months." This is confusing. Is Kindladze being described, or Eranio?
• The Guardian needs italics.
• Leeds should be changed to Leeds United and linked, since I don't see it mentioned before.
• "since his injuries and inability to prove himself led to the lack of serious offers." Change to "a lack of serious offers".
• "A similar pattern of starts and substitute appearances to the previous season followed at the start of the 2001–02 season." Followed what? I think this could be rewritten and improved.
• "Jim Smith resigned from his managerial position at Derby in the same month" What same month? I think you're continuing from his child's birth in the previous paragraph. If he resigned in October 2001, say so.
• Does Manchester City need to be linked again?
• "and John Gregory was appointed as a manager." Drop "a".
• "he has no future at the club. Had.
• Comma after However?
• "As the club continued attempts to terminate Kinkladze's contract" I think "its attempts" is cleaner.
• "and came as a substitute" Came in.
• "as he took part in build-up of both goals." This may be my lack of experience with football recaps, but should it be "the build-up"?
• "from the team for the match against Russia" How about "their match"?
• "as early as in the next qualifying match against Ireland." Too wordy. Try "for the next qualifying match against Ireland."
• While I'm here, what tournament is this talking about? Is this European championships qualifying? If so, mention it.
• "By January, because of financial crisis at Derby" The financial crisis.
• "He intended to quit but," Move comma before but.

Let me know when these are done, and I'll look at more of it. Until then, take care of these and see if you can get some copy-editing help. Giants2008 (talk) 21:49, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

All valid points. A case of having read the text too many times to recognise mistakes, I think. Most of them I've fixed as suggested, apart from a couple of cases where I've rewritten the whole sentence. Oldelpaso (talk) 09:39, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Picking up from where I left off...

• "Failing to agree terms with Derby" First part of this needs cleanup.
• "Without a club during pre-season" seems like it should be "the pre-season".
• Remove the second Leeds United link, because it's now linked earlier.
• "but none resulted in the offer of a contract" I think the following is better: "but none resulted in a contract offer."
• Russia is linked a second time in close proximity to the first.
• "Kinkladze went for a one-week trial at Panathinaikos by invitation of club's owner Giannis Vardinogiannis, but after completing the trial Greeks decided not to sign him." Numerous grammar issues here.
• Perhaps say that Shinnik Yaroslavl is a Russian club. I had to click on the link to discover this.
• Anorthosis: "Temuri Ketsbaia gave an old friend a second chance" His old friend. The sentence this is in also seems like a run-on.
• "recalled in Georgia's squad" Should this be "to"?
• Link the Lithuanian national side here. Giants2008 (talk) 02:33, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

All done with the exception of "pre-season", which I'm pretty sure is accepted usage, see for example this recent Guardian article (5th para). Oldelpaso (talk) 21:11, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Comments

• What makes the following sources reliable http://www.4thegame.com/?

I haven't really been able to evaluate the non-English language sources. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

While I realise it is no guarantee, the site is widely used by Wikiproject Football members. One of the longest running football sites on the web, it is the flagship site of the stock market listed Total Sports Online AS. The majority of its news content is a "staff and agencies" affair. Oldelpaso (talk) 08:01, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

RSSSF is also used as a source in the article. I know Ealdgyth has questioned this site in the past, and I'm not sure if she has made a decision on it. I don't really have a problem with these sport statistics sites, but I'm throwing it out there for anyone interested. Giants2008 (talk) 21:53, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

RSSSF is a rather singular site. It started out as an offshoot of a newsgroup, but has since become a respected source to the extent that the Danish Football Association has named it their official keeper of records and statistics. Time and time again WP:FOOTBALL members have found it to be more consistently accurate than commercial sites such as the Racing Post owned Soccerbase. Oldelpaso (talk) 09:39, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll vouch for WP:FOOTY members' approval of RSSSF. Not so sure about 4thegame.com --Dweller (talk) 12:36, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

• I personally think that at a minimum the article should have one more image (as per point 3 WP:FA?). It would be a shame for the article to be held back on this reason alone. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 15:28, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I have added an image of tangential relevance, one of Derby County's home ground Pride Park Stadium. In terms of pictures of Kinkladze himself, the article already possesses a free use image. Free use images of Kinkladze are extremely scarce, and as there is no single definitive image of Kinkladze I do not believe it would be possible for a fair-use pic to fulfil the criteria at WP:NFC when a free-use pic exists and is already included. Oldelpaso (talk) 21:11, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I found a beautiful picture of Tblisi on the wikicommons and I've put that in the article too. I guess with the context i've given it's relevant enough. I feel quite strongly about the media in articles because large sections of text can be off-putting, which would be a shame given the quality of the article. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 22:16, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.