Talk:Holy Orders

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Contents 1 Other denominations 2 Priestly ideals 3 Holy Orders in Eastern Orthodoxy 4 problem with researching religion 5 Ordination for Women 6 holy orders & ministry 7 seperate ordiantion entry 8 "Priest" etymology 9 defintion of a hoy order 10 defintion of a holy order 11 Two small changes 12 External links 13 Judaism and humanism 14 Homilies v Sermons 15 Monks as Bishops in the East 16 Merge with Ordination proposed 17 Why is it done? 18 Bias?

[edit] Other denominations

What about Holy Orders in Eastern Orthodoxy? Or Holy Orders in Anglicanism?

This is Wikipedia. Put in a subhead and start typing. I started with what I know best, and people added things. (Notice that the entry makes no claims to completeness even for Catholicism - it says 'in modern Catholicism'. I hope we'll get the history eventually). --MichaelTinkler

I would -- except I don't know anything about them, and I am too lazy to do any research myself :) I was just hoping someone else might know, and chime in...

[edit] Priestly ideals

The article says:

Not all priests have lived up to these ideals: see Catholic priests' sex abuse scandal.

Catholic priests have broken every commandment. There have been mass murderers among them, serial adulterers, thieves and con-artists. In past centuries indulgences (forgiveness) was sold. And what about the Spanish Inquisition?

Yet several articles about the Catholic Church here at Wikipedia mention none of that but with unseemly prurient interest they mention at the slightest excuse the recent sex abuse scandals.

I am inclined to remove the remark I have quoted. Would I be right to do so?

Ok, new user. Forgive my lack of computer skills. Yes, I agree priests have broken all the commandments. But that needs to stay seperate from the theology of Holy Orders. The one is not the same as the other, though of course evil, esp in God's minister, effects not only the doer, but all people as well.

Dave

Psb777 11:32, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Holy Orders in Eastern Orthodoxy

On the subject of Holy Orders in the Eastern Orthodox Church there is an error, though one that is commonly made, and is even in some books. The article says that one is tonsured to the rank of reader and subdeacon, and this phrase is used in common speech, though it is not technically correct. The tonsure occures prior to the ordination of a man to the rank of reader. He is ordained a reader by the laying on of hand of the celebrant ( which is normally a bishop, though for these lesser orders an archimandrite or abbot may perform this ordination). The ordinand is then latter ordained to the rank of subdeacon by laying of of hands. In the Greek a distinction is made in these two types of ordinations. The lesser form is called chirothesis ( for minor orders) and the greater one is called chirotony ( for major orders). This may be an arcane point, but it is very significant and I would like to hear some feedback before I make any changes. I am new and I don't wish to step on any toes.

--Frmaximos 03:50, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] problem with researching religion

people make the hugest emphases on the smallest details, therefore making it nearly impossible to absorb everything they say. to put it bluntly, its extremely boring. im doing a project on the history of religious orders and i nearly fall asleep when reading pages about it. i wish everything could be more clear and concise. on christianity- yes there are many faults with the religion, for example, if God created adam and eve, and they were perfect, why did they eat the forbidden fruit (which is never identified as an apple in the bible). we also come to the question why is there evil in the world? if god is a loving being why did he put evil in the world and why does he allow the innocent to die (helpless babies etc.) yes of course there is the common saying that it was meant to happen, but who wants a god that ordains the death of their family? these same imperfections plague the church as well. we cant expect them to be perfect because they are human. to me, christianity is an example of how powerful the mind is, if you catch my drift. look at what we can make ourselves believe. to make it fair, this is applicable to all religions, excluding buddhism. buddhism has been called the "perfection of natural religion", one that focuses on the power found inside of ones self instead of outside in some nonexistent (opinion) being.

some philisophical questions

what is truth what is evil can god create a rock he cant lift?

my name is Sky, skyd@culver.org, aim:culverpolopimp feel free to respond.

by the way, as i have just learned anyone can make a post on this page by clicking the plus (+) tab at the top of the page.

TUESDAY OCTOBER 19th 2004

hello I like you

December 6

Thomas' Summa Theologiae answers some of your questions. Here is my shot at it. truth is what IS, not what we want it to be. We can know truth, but not all truth all at once.

What is evil? Other than a lack of good? I would suggest a lack, period. Evil is nothing where there should be something.

Last, it depends what you mean by lift.

Dave

[edit] Ordination for Women

In today's evangelistic organizations, women are ordained as a matter of course. All it takes is a desire to be a minister and a willingness to serve other's in His name. While some organizations require a college degree and years of study, other organizations will ordain for the asking. In each it is up to the degree of study or time one wants to put into it.

Many 'organized' churches also ordain women who feel called to minister to others in that capacity. While some differentiate on what a woman can do in that capacity, many don't.

I'm not clear on what you mean by "evangelistic organizations." Parachurch organizations? Denominational missionary agencies? Please feel free to expand the section on the ordination of women, but be sure to specify when and where your comments apply. If you do plan to expand it, you might want to create a user account so your name doesn't appear as your address "12.216.83.20." --Flex 14:53, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] holy orders & ministry

Whilst the entry I added could go under the definition, it is more introductory than definitional. It would IMO unbalance that definition. If the Article was Ordination rather than holy orders then it would be easier. Paul foord 01:29, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] seperate ordiantion entry

The entry for ordiantion redirects here and that's not correct since this article forms part of the series Christianity. Not all ordiantions are Christian, and this article is really mostly slanted towards the Catholic church.

[edit] "Priest" etymology

This article is the very first time anywhere I've seen it mentioned that "priest" might be derived from the Latin "praepositus". As far as I know, Christian priests have never been called that, not even in Rome, and in Greek they're called "presbyteros" to this day, so this etymology seems unlikely at best. Is there a reference for it anywhere? Csernica 04:17, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I've always understood the term to have developed similarly to presbyterate and presbyter. Then again, I've been wrong before. -- Essjay · Talk 05:16, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

From what I understand, the etymology is somewhat uncertain. The American Heritage Dictionary entry seems to confirm this: "Middle English preost, from Old English prost, perhaps from Vulgar Latin *prester (from Late Latin presbyter; see presbyter) or from West Germanic *prvost (from Latin praepositus, superintendent; see provost)." --Flex 14:01, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

Again, first I've ever heard of this. I'll check the OED when I have a chance. Is there any evidence anywhere, I wonder, for Christain priests ever having been called "praepositus"? They were certanly called "prester" at one time. Csernica 20:41, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] defintion of a hoy order

[edit] defintion of a holy order

[edit] Two small changes

Careful readers will note two small chages under Catholic holy orders. They are orders, not degrees of ordination. This is often confused, but the rite ordains one to an order.

Second, while Leo 13 did declare Anglian orders null, it has never been taught infallibly. Theoretically, the Church could change her mind in light of new information.

I find the inclusion of Anglicans seeking ordination from Old Catholic bishops interesting, as I have know Anglicans to do it for precisely the issue of apostolic succession.

Dave

[edit] External links

I removed this link:

• Church of Spiritual Humanism

as it appears to be a dig, not a reference. Discuss humanism, link to the article on humanism, but this link seems to be a fork in disguise.

Also this one:

• Women Elders, an essay on the ordination of women in the Presbyterian tradition

which is already linked from ordination of women, to which it is specific.

Just zis  Guy, you know? ^[T]/_[C] AfD? 10:51, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Judaism and humanism

The section on ordination of homosexuals includes accounts of Judaism and humanist organizations on having homosexuals in leadership roles. However, the article is titled "holy orders", and its introduction presents this term solely in a Christian context. Is semicha (the ordination of a rabbi) ever called Holy Orders in the Jewish tradition? If so, the introduction should reflect this; if not, the discussion of homosexual rabbis is irrelevant to this article and should be moved, probably to Homosexuality and Judaism. Similarly, unless there is a humanist religious organization which uses the term "holy orders" with regard to the ordination of its leaders/celebrants, the humanist section should be removed, or moved to an article about organized humanism. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 16:30, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

In the absence of any objection, I've removed the sections on Judaism and humanism as not relevant to the term Holy Orders per se. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:00, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Homilies v Sermons

The article subsection 'Process and Sequence' says that transitional deacons are licensed to preach sermons. In the Catholic Church anyone can preach a sermon, but a homily, preached after the gospel and relating to the day's scripture readings is reserved to priests and deacons. I don't know about other denominations, but surely the article should be more accurate? Does anyone have an objection to saying something like, 'deacons are able to preach the homily after the Gospel at mass' —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jamesblythe (talk • contribs) 11:34, March 19, 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Monks as Bishops in the East

While the practice has generally been to ordain monks to the Episcopate, there is no rule that says that is the way it has to be.

[edit] Merge with Ordination proposed

The Ordination article is very weak and has no references. Nearly all of its content is duplicated here, and covered more thoroughly. Incoming links seem to be almost randomly distributed acrosss the two articles. So I think a merge is in order. What do you think? What do you think the title of the merged article should be? --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 09:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

My initial reaction would be against the merge because of the extreme bias in this article toward Roman Catholic and Anglican concepts. Those of us who are Reformation Protestants (Lutherans, Presbyterians, United Churches, etc.) would be rather misrepresented. Perhaps if the two articles were in fact merged, the resultant article should be titled "Ordination" rather than "Holy Orders", since the former term incorporates the latter, but not vice versa. Emerymat 00:49, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Non-Anglican protestants are described much better at this article than at Ordination. Please try to fix the bias you see here, as bias is not acceptable, even if a merge does not happen.

I think we should consider Ordination and Holy Orders as a title. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 10:09, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

But see, the bias begins with the title itself, "Holy Orders". This is simply not a term that Reformation Protestants use. Emerymat 12:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I know the title is a problem. So, should we merge to Ordination or merge to Ordination and Holy Orders or find a way to keep the two articles separate without confusing people, or something else? --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 18:05, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I would be in favor of the merging, and I supose either title would be acceptable. My preference would be for simply "Ordination", as I think that incorporates Holy Orders, but I recognize that could be my own bias. So, while my vote would be for merging to an article titled "Ordination", I guess would not oppose merging to one titled "Ordination and Holy Orders" if others felt it necessary. Emerymat 22:17, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Oppose ordination is also a concept in Buddhism with cognate concepts in other religions 152.91.9.219 01:26, 8 September 2006 (UTC) Oppose Many protestants familiar with ordination ceremonies have never called this "Holy Orders" MPS 15:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Oppose I'm a bit late to the discussion, but Holy Orders and Ordination are not the same thing. It is possible to be ordained without undergoing Holy Orders. It may be better to remove the "Other Concepts of Ordination" section to Ordination and have a link to it rather than discuss the other concepts on a page specifically on Holy Orders. The Dark 13:05, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Oppose Way to "Roman" of a suggestion for the vast majority of even Christian denominations, let alone non-Christian religions.--LanceHaverkamp 04:48, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Removed merge tags, article is now broader than Christianity Paul foord 12:48, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why is it done?

What is missing here, it seems to me, is a clear, concise explanation of why Holy Orders is necessary. What does it confer upon the recipient of the Sacrament? Obviously a title (priest, deacon, etc.), which is laboriously explained, but what authority or powers does it place upon the recipient?

Thank you.

I will double check the article for the "why" you mention is lacking. However, to answer you question, the "why" is the sacramental character that the Sacrament of Holy Orders provides. As Catholics, we believe that through the Sacrament, the gift of the Holy Spirit is given. The Holy Spirit then "imprints" a character on the soul, and empower the person to act in the name of the Church and to be ministers within the Church.DaveTroy 09:56, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bias?

Why does this page only include Judeo-Christian holy orders? Doesn't every religion have a holy order of some type?

wrc_wolfbrother 03:38, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Wolfbrother, the answer would be NO, as to how you ask your question. Does every religion have some type of "designated" worship leader, I would answer "yes." But here HOLY ORDER refers to a sacrament -- a concept that doesnt' exist outside of Christianity. Further, "Order" here refers to a group to which you are configured into -- again not a universal concept. For example, in Shintoism, the Emperor of Japan is the High Priest ex officio, not by virtue of ordination. Another example would be Jewish Rabbi's.....they aren't necessarily priests, rather they are scholars of the law. In other traditions, one is a priest because you're from a priestly family.DaveTroy 16:29, 23 June 2007 (UTC)