Talk:Religion

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  • Andrew Stephens. "God of all things", The Age, 9/4/2006. ([[Wikipedia:Wikipedia as a press source 2006#{Section}|details]])
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6

Contents

[edit] Impossibility of Definition?

In one sense attempting a definition of religion is potentially meaningless because a religion can be viewed as what any individual holds to be true regardless of any outside influences such as facts, environmental factors, proofs and so on. In this view there are as many different religions as there are people and therefore no two people agree exactly on what religion involves. If any given definition works from the viewpoint of consensus (what most people think religion involves on average) it should first provide empirical evidence that such a consensus exists in reality, and this must be on an international, not simply a national basis. It would be very interesting if anyone can cite any studies of this nature that have been done? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.66.238.27 (talk) 15:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

There are standard definitions of religion, which appear in (for example) dictionaries. I'm not familiar with any such definition which defines religion as "what any individual holds to be true regardless of any outside influences..."
Generally these definitions are formalized by looking at international usage of the language, citing references in published literature. In that sense, one can determine from the use of (for example) the word "religion" in published works in the English language that there is, indeed, a consensus regarding what religion is considered by most users of the word to be. -- MatthewDBA 17:17, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
But is this really true given that the vast majority of the population are not interested enough to publish works defining religion, and therefore any such work is unrepresentative? Further, even accepting such a literary definition, you would have to include ideas about religion taken from the contemporary media as well as atheist/non-theist sources (for instance the definition of religion as it is understood in Marxist literature).
Quotation supporting the idea presented in the original point "Above all, we ought to submit to the Divine authority rather than to our own judgment even though the light of reason may seem to us to suggest, with the utmost clearness and evidence, something opposite." - René Descartes. Quoted from The Philosophical Works of Descartes, translated by Elizabeth S. Haldane and G. R. T. Ross (London: Cambridge University Press, 1973), vol. I, p. 253. So definintions of this type would still have to be included in the survey of literature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.66.238.27 (talk) 15:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Present day adherents

This section is a long way from factual. Not based on proper research, its biased, and uses very poor information website/garphs. this whole POV section whould be removed.--203.87.127.18 10:17, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree. This section is poorly researched, and fails to address the fact that large numbers of Asian people do not identify with one particular religion. Nor does it acknowledge that the labels applied to the "world religions" are the constructions of European scholarship, and are wildly misleading. For instance, the notion of "Hinduism" existing as a religion in the same way that Catholicism does laughable. The same goes for Buddhism and Chinese folk religions. --Joechip123 02:10, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I was a bit puzzled when I found a broken link to the section "Religion in modernity." Turns out this is what that section eventually mutated to over the course of the last three years, and the original link had never been updated to reflect the renamed section heading. I eventually tracked down the section in the article "Major religious groups" and relinked it. It occurs to me that it would be useful, though resource-intensive, to have a script to track down broken section links.

Anyway, good job getting this section moved to a more appropriate home and revised. Emoticon (talk) 20:50, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] demographics

there is a lot of space after the demographics part. can somebody delete that space---from the most irritating person born yet

The demographics animation is wrong please change it, for the Philippines Luzon and Visayas and Mindanao were mainly paganistic then Islamic then now Catholic, Only small parts of Mindanao are Islamic (5% of population). Thanks. 124.104.41.174 06:47, 20 February 2007 (UTC) AARON

while is is good that the source is well described, we really need counts from multiple sources - possibly an average of them?Motorbyclist 05:37, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

The graph fails to explain the difference between Atheism and non-religious. Also, I think parody religions should be added (as a seperate survey, because of many people who have a parody religion AND real beliefs they hold. Example: a Pastafarianist who is also Jewish). Plus, It needs to be updated, as many of them are changing constantly. Karonaway 14:55, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

shouldn't rastafarianism be under the abrahamic religions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.94.83.203 (talk) 18:23, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mormonism

It should also be noted that many consider Mormonism to be a distinct denomination of Christianity, because of their fundamental belief in Jesus Christ. However, it has been deemed appropriate to list Mormonism as a separate religion for practical purposes.

No...believe it or not, Mormonism is Christianity. This statement is biased. I would like to hear these so-called practical purposes. The numbers for Mormonism should be included in the Christianity section. Mormons are just as Christian as Anglicans, Jehovah's Witnesses, or Baptists. bob rulz 16:47, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Most Mormons consider themselves to be Christians but most non-Mormon Christians do not consider them to be Christians. A similar situation occurs with Jehovah's Witnesses. Also, I am told that most Roman Catholics do not consider non-Roman Catholics to be Christian while some Baptists do not consider Roman Catholics to be Christians. It makes it hard to count. Rick Norwood 19:19, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Roman Catholics do consider many non-Roman Catholics (like Anglicans, Baptists, Lutherans...) to be Christians. At least that seems to be the official Catholic teaching. But, AFAIK, Mormonism is not recognized as a Christian denomination by the Catholic Church. --Leinad ¬ »saudações! 15:44, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I would like to hear a good reason why Mormonism is not Christianity. It's considered Christianity in both the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Christianity articles, why should it be any different here? For all intensive purposes, Mormons are Christian. bob rulz
It should be noted that the Christianity article claims only the Mormons "self-identify" as Christians. Even the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints says only that Mormons "count themselves" as Christians (a POV that is also in several other articles on Mormonism / the Latter-day Saint Movement cf. Mormonism and Christianity). So, let's return to your question: why should it be any different here? The distinction this page makes is quite in line with the distinctions made elsewhere on Wikipedia (though may, perhaps, be too specific to properly belong to an article as general as this one.
If the issue is only one of demographic figures, then it should be noted that adding 12 million Mormons to 2.1 billion Christians would make no statistical difference and would only eliminate Mormonism from the list altogether (which may not be a bad idea as this is the path the original source [Adherents.com] seems to have taken).
In any case, it does not seem to be the intention of that passage to claim that Mormonism isn't Christianity so much as to indicate that listing it separately may give the wrong impression. Ig0774 13:07, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
  • It all boils down to what these various religions believe: Who is Christ? Mormonism, unlike say, Catholism and Christianity, does not believe Christ is the Son of God, or, holds any Deism as fully God (IOW, he is just a good man/prophet/etc.). That's one major reason why Mormonism is considered not to be part of any religious Christian denomination. Mormonism also denies the Christian belief variation of a Trinity, denies that the Bible is the absolute truth, sees a complete different path to salvation (Christians would say by "works"), and believe that man can work his way to a level equal with Christ and ultimately God. Their messengers even witness to "Christians".
  • But also, we need to clarify exactly what a "Denomination" is, too. Note that in the Wikipedia articles on "Denomination" (even http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_denomination) does not include Mormonism.

Colonel Marksman 18:15, 11 April 2006 (UTC) PS: Not that it shouldn't be included. If it should, then someone ought to change that.

I don't normally try to argue with ingorant people, but in this case what you said is so incredibly not true that it's ridiculous. I grew up in a Mormon family, and while I'm an Atheist now, I still firmly support the Mormon faith and try to clear up misconceptions about its religion. Mormons do believe that Jesus is the Son of God. I would like to hear where you heard they didn't believe that. And just because there's a few minor differences between Mormonism and a few other Christian beliefs doesn't mean that they're not Christian. bob rulz 19:40, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

- Ok. Let's see it this way. Sometimes we do bad things that appears to be a good thing and vice versa. This is what happened to the Mormonism. From one point they are Christian because they believe in Christ and worship him. There is no way not to be. In the contrary of Jehova's Witness they don't believe in Christ as Lord or Son of God. But Mormonism are not Christian because they have another teaching, other evangelism, something else that Christ didn't teach. And, that's is why the government of USA consider them as a Sect Cult and not even a religion! A.G. 05/18/2007

There are huge, major differences between Mormonism and Christianity about the nature of God, the meaning of Sonship, the creation of humanity and its relationship to God, and numerous other subjects. These cannot be simply glossed over as "a few monor differences". They're major enough that even Christians who are informed about Mormonism cannot consider it a branch of Christianity. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:10, 4 May 2006 (UTC)


I completely agree with the statement above me. If what I've read is true, Mormons are *not* Christians and it can be plainly seen through the discrepancies between the one and only 100% true Word of God (the Bible) and the majority of the Mormon scripture. My main point would have to be the fact that Mormons believe in a completely different God. I've done extensive research in this area, at least more than the average person, and I have solidly come the conclusion that Mormonism is a cult. One website sums it up quite nicely...

"As we can clearly see, the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are sharply opposed to biblical Christianity. Because of this, the LDS Church is not just another Christian denomination, but is a non-Christian cult."

http://www.towertotruth.net/Mormon/articles/mormonism_uncovered.htm

The predicament with people “Bob rulz”, and many other former Mormons/current Mormons, is that they are taught morals, values, and beliefs that contradict or do not take into account what the older generations of Mormons are taught. In addition, if what I’ve learned is accurate, current (and especially the younger) Mormons don’t even know half of the principles, history concepts, and beliefs that their religion takes part in! This, in addition to the information gap between the generations I explained earlier, would explain why they constantly wonder where we come up with statements like “Mormons do not believe in the Trinity” and “Mormonism denies the Virgin Birth”.

In summary, Mormonism is not a distinct denomination of Christianity, in fact, it is a completely separate entity. Being considered a “denomination of Christianity” would entail more than just a belief in Christ… it also includes believing in the only true version of Christ, found in the Bible, and the fundamental doctrines taught in the Bible. ~Andrew, 5/15/06

Odd, you'd think that a church with the name "the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" would believe in Christ. Thier teachings clearly reflect this. They teach that he was the son of god, etc. The main difference is that we believe that Christ =\= God.


Icezebra 17:21, 5 March 2007 (UTC)In order to agree on whether or not Mormonism is part of Christianity we need to first agree on the definition of Christianity. The current accepted Wikipedia definition is:

“Christianity is a monotheistic religion centred on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth as presented in the New Testament. Christians believe Jesus to be the Son of God and the Messiah prophesized in the Old Testament.”

This boils down to 2 key issues, that Jesus was the Son of God; and that Jesus was the Messiah prophesized in the Old Testament. The other key point is rather more subjective. Not every Christian follows the teachings “religiously”[pun intended] (indeed, to follow them to the point you are expected to give up your family and never speak / have contact with them again... madness!).

Thus we are left with the two criteria, religions that conform to these should regard themselves as part of Christianity and vice versa. I’m not an expert on Mormonism, and so will leave this particular point to you to decide on. I have though, in a brief search, found two Mormon – run sites. One proclaims:

“We bear testimony, as His duly ordained Apostles—that Jesus is the Living Christ, the immortal Son of God. He is the great King Immanuel, who stands today on the right hand of His Father. He is the light, the life, and the hope of the world. His way is the path that leads to happiness in this life and eternal life in the world to come.” http://www.mormonwiki.com/mormonism/Jesus_Christ

Immanuel – another word for messiah. This statement seems to suggest Mormons are Christians, no?

Another site (http://www.lasvegasmormontemple.org/What_Do_Mormons_Believe.html) offers a whole diatribe on their beliefs regarding Jesus.

On a related note; the preceding comment makes a point about Mormonism being a cult, and then takes the jump to non-Christian cult. I’d like to see the evidence behind this, rather than just the conclusion as stated above.

The problem with this statement is that “cult” is a subjective word, there are several definitions of this all revolving around:

“an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers”

A slightly more specific definition related to the issue at hand: “a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader”

There is essentially no difference between Christianity and Mormonism except in numbers, and neither can claim substantially to be “the true faith”, indeed, neither can even claim substantially (or, even logically, reasonably, scientifically et cetera) to be true...

To conclude; if Mormonism is a cult, then so is Christianity, however this doesn’t really help the argument at hand. The best definition would be that Mormonism is a sub-cult of the Christian cult, just as Protestantism, Methodism, Jehovah's Witness(ism?) are all sub-cults of the same.

What does help is that Mormons themselves base their beliefs on Christ and the Bible, and conform to the definition of Christianity. Surely that’s enough... I feel there's sufficient evidence to include it as a denomination of Christianity.

Furthermore, quoting "the one and only 100% true Word of God (the Bible)" in an argument, discredits the validity of your research... If you're going to believe the Bible without any reasoning or logic applied, how can we trust (without sight of evidence / reasoning process) your reasoning and logic in this area? Can you elaborate more on your extensive research? Icezebra 17:21, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

In the West, there has always been the question: Why are we here on this planet? The Chinese also have a question. Chinese classics maintains JiLaiZhi ZeAnZhi 己来之 则安之, we come we remain. The question is while we are here how do we walk the path of life. The difference between Religion and philosophy: Religion is a theory that needs to be proven. Philosophy suggests methods to conduct life. China has no religion of its own. Buddhism is from India. Chinese do not worship their ancestors. They extend sincere respect and love to their deseased ancestors. Shen Yi, July 11, 2007

The Catholic Church now officially says that only Catholics are (true) Christians. List it under "frauds" maybe?--Svetovid 22:07, 14 July 2007 (UTC)


Every group that defines themselfs as christian should be called christian, why should one person belief rule out others, if going to chose one, why not chose catholics who say most other christian churches are not christians and exclude them too!--203.87.127.18 09:58, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] First paragraph

As I had a vandal claiming Freemasonry was a religion (based on this article), I had a look at the lead here (although I know we don't source articles from other articles). The changes I made address the following:

  1. A religion is a set of common beliefs held by a group. Different beliefs obviously don't make the same religion.
  2. Community was inaccurate. People of the same religion can live wherever they want. It was a bit too vague.
  3. the adherence to belief was redundant, as the beliefs as underlying principle was already stated.
  4. Religious law is part of the codification of religion, so I added that.

I'm not sure I like the lack of qualification of mysticism. Most mysticism is considered an offshoot of the main orthodox religion, except for certain cases, but I'm not clear on how to address that without minimizing it. MSJapan 17:33, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

The 4 things you define what a religion is is not the same as all others, there is alot of definitions on what a religion is! So if some group claims they are religion it should be respected and allowed.--203.87.127.18 10:01, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Related forms of thought: Religion and science

The article Religion and science should be edited to remove the following quote:

“All scientific knowledge is probabilistic and subject to later improvement or revision in the face of better evidence. Scientific theories that have an overwhelming preponderance of favorable evidence are often treated as facts (such as the theories of gravity or evolution).”

The first sentence should be removed because it does not accurately represent the main article: Relationship between religion and science. It includes false statements and employs biased language that is not found in the original text. For example, nowhere in the main article does it claim that “all scientific knowledge is probabilistic.” That’s not just a false statement, it doesn’t even make sense.

Nor does the article state that “all scientific knowledge is subject to later improvement or revision in the face of better evidence” which as it stands is biased, misleading, and outright wrong. Scientists don’t get “better” evidence, they make new findings. New findings neither improve our knowledge nor revise it, they simply add to it.

The second sentence should be deleted because it is not true as stated. Scientific theories are treated by scientists and most educated people as logical explanations of how things work that are built upon a multitude of facts. Often, folks who do not appreciate the difference between a theory and the facts which a theory might be built upon are either poorly educated, or have allowed their religious beliefs to interfere with their ability to reason logically.

Mmyotis 22:13, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What would a wiki religion be like?

could a wiki religion work? I don't mean to belittle other religions but it seems that most of them are out dated and could use some feedback.

See http://religion.wikia.com/. Rev Bem 18:09, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't quite understand what you mean. Could you elaborate? Karonaway 23:31, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Links, amazon reader

there is a search box in the amazon reader if you type in something like religion, all the pages will display. The same goes for PDF, the use of Ochre is sometimes seen as symbolic of religion. Muntuwandi 16:03, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't matter, proper citation requires an author and a page, and a publisher and a date, just like any other academic or research article that cites other work. You can't just paste bad cites and expect them to stick. Not only that, I think a discussion of religion's origins is way beyond the scope of this article. MSJapan 16:08, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
This is even better than citing an author or research article because you can read the information directly without requiring a subscription. The origin of religion is important because it did not appear from nowhere. It must have had a beginning. I will provide the information from more Journals later on Muntuwandi 16:10, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
You're missing my point, which is that you are not citing material properly. Work on the material in your userspace first if it's not ready to be included. MSJapan 16:16, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
An ISBN and a page number is sufficient enough as a citation. Muntuwandi 16:18, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
No, it isn't. Author and Publisher info is standard. The proper citation should be:
  • "Wade, Nicholas - Before The Dawn, Discovering the lost history of our ancestors. Penguin Books, London, 2006. p. 8"
I make no comment on whether the material being cited is relevant or reliable in the context of this article. Blueboar 19:23, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
I will, though - Wade is a science reporter, and the book is about DNA and genetics, not religion. The PDF is a review of literature written by a psychology researcher. Neither of them are reliable for this article. MSJapan 00:28, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Nowadays there is a merging of disciplines to help understand what it means to be human. Genetics, archeology, linguistics, and anthropology are all being merged and not being treated in isolation as before. Currently anthropologists link religion to symbolic behaviour, and abstract thought. Furthermore it is believed that the development of language was a necessary prerequisite for the evolution of religion. Researchers have made putative dates for when these stages in human evolution may have took place. For example the increased use of red ochre in African sites dated to 50,000 years ago are at the moment the strongest indication of some form of ritualistic behavior that could be associated with religion. I believe the inclusion of important dates is important The evolution of religion. Muntuwandi 00:41, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Believe me, I know all about interdisciplinary research, but the sources you cite are clearly not interdisciplinary in the way you say they are, and do not assert what you claim. The new source you cite does nothing for your argument either, because you are engaging in OR by synthesizing statements from disparate publications to make conclusions that are not made in the sources. For example the PDF you cite now isn't called "the evolution of religion" as you state; it's called "Ritual, Emotion, and Sacred Symbols: The Evolution of Religion as an Adaptive Complex", which is psychology, not history. MSJapan 00:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
MsJapan, you have reverted more than 3 times. I suggest you revert back and we can continue the discussion on the origin of religion. I am open to modification, but this is a valid subtopic. Religion did not just drop from the sky. It has its origins and some scientists have researched this area, on which I would like to make additions. Muntuwandi 01:06, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
That's fine, but you're not quoting those scientists; you're quoting offhand remarks in one sentence amongst 50 or 100 pages that have nothing to do with the topic, as long as the one statement fits with your POV. If you want to talk about the origins of religion, find scholars and sources working on the origins of religion. More importantly, as I thought, this is not the right article - you want Development of religion for what you want to do. MSJapan 01:11, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Can the origin of religion be dated? A surprising answer is yes, if the following argument is accepted. Like most behaviors that are found in societies throughout the world, religion must have been present in the ancestral human population before the dispersal from Africa 50,000 years ago. Although religious rituals usually involve dance and music, they are also very verbal, since the sacred truths have to be stated. If so, religion, at least in its modern form, cannot pre-date the emergence of language. It has been argued earlier that language attained its modern state shortly before the exodus from Africa. If religion had to await the evolution of modern, articulate language, then it too would have emerged shortly before 50,000 years ago. Before the Dawn

Please don't forget to revert. Muntuwandi 01:22, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

That's precisely what I mean about things taken out of context - Wade is a science reporter, and the book cover and the review both say the book is about genetics and other scientific breakthroughs that allow us to learn about history. The book is not about religion at all, and does not support the statement in the way it needs to to be reliable, because Wade probably never touches on the statement again in the following 312 pages. I'd be interested to know what the preceding and following paragraphs are, as your little trick on the reader didn't work for me. MSJapan 01:30, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
You mean religion cannot be studied scientifically. I don't always agree with Wade, but he is one of the best science journalists. His best talent is articulating the "greek" and "latin" of scientists into language that regular folks understand. He does not do the research himself, but he relies on the information from other experts and simply translates it into everyday language. He writes for the New York Times. that is credible enough. If you go through the reader and search for religion you can see it pops up at least 25 times. So this is not just a one liner in the book. If you get a chance you could just read the whole book, it has been reviewed favorably. However they are many other sources that say the same thing though I think Wade articulates it best. Muntuwandi 01:43, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Reviewed favorably by whom? This is definitely not the venue for these additions, which are nothing more than highly spurious theories. Where do you get that religious rituals "usually" involve dance and music, btw? While I would happily believe that the creation of language and religion are most probably intricately related (see for instance Roy Rappaport's Ritual and Religion in the Making of Humanity) there is nothing widely accepted in the particular argument you are trying to advance. By the way, if you take Rappaport seriously (which I'm not suggesting you do) then ritual and religion may in fact pre-date language--not communication but language. Any theory about the development of religion will in fact be scientifically spurious and if you ask me nothing about the origins of religion should be part of this entry at all except perhaps for a reference to the existence of such theories and then a link to the development page.PelleSmith 03:11, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the assertion made in this book is very much common sense and is a descent scientific explanation. At the moment the scientific consensus is that all humans are descended from a population of Africans who lived about 50,000 years ago. From this group a small subset of Africans left Africa into Asia and went on to reach Europe, Asia, Australia and the Americas[[1]]. The question that arises then is how to explain similarities between the present day populations who last shared common ancestors 50,000 years ago. Similarities can only occur by 3 ways, that is

  • Convergent Evolution
  • borrowing
  • Common Origin.

It is a well known fact that religion is practiced by all human populations. Consequently it either was evolved independently in places such as Australia and or South America or it has a common origin in Africa. The most logical explanation is a common origin in Africa. And this is all that I believe should be included. Muntuwandi 04:13, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Look this isn't evolution. Accepted notions about human evolution or about approximate dates for the evolution of language do not belong in this entry. The problem comes in when you try to tie these theories into a theory of the creation of religion, which, however logical it may sound to you is unverifiable and simply not necessary here in this entry. Go to the Development of religion page with this stuff please.PelleSmith 04:42, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
What is with the hostility. This is cited information from the emerging synthesis of human origins. I find it to be very fascinating and very simple to understand. It is also critical to the questions role that religion plays in our lives. Muntuwandi 05:03, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
There is no hostility. This material simply doesn't belong in this entry. You will never build consensus either to keep it in. Please explain to me how your material isn't 1) based upon highly theoretical propositions--even if many scientists believe they are true (something we don't even know) 2) a synthesis of such materials--OR. Anyone can go around citing aspects of what they edit into an entry. The existence of a source that relates to a fact used in creating this kind of synthesis doesn't make the source or the synthesis itself worthwhile.PelleSmith 16:16, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Agnosticism and Skepticism

In regards to a recent removal and revert of the sentence: "Agnosticism is by definition skeptical of religion." This statement is patently false. First of all agnosticism is uncertain and not necessarily "skeptical"--skeptical is a charged and POV rendition here of "uncertain." As an agnostic, I'm also much more comfortable with uncertain than skeptical as a description but maybe that's just me. On top of this what agnosticism is uncertain about is the existence of deities and not "religion." Its sad to see the persistence of this Monotheistic (more so particularly Protestant) bias in religious criticism. Religion, to many of its naive post-Reformation Western critics may chalk up to a belief in or faith in God, but that is NOT the definition of religion AT ALL. Religion involves several other aspects and may not involve deities even, in some notable cases. On the flip side of the coin the statement "skeptical of religion" may therefore include anyone skeptical of any component of religion. I may fully believe in a god but be skeptical of religious institutions. Likewise I may be uncertain about the existence of gods but not be skeptical at all of several religious institutions and/or religious practices.PelleSmith 12:52, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Encyclopedia Britannica (part of)

[2] religion Encyclopædia Britannica Article

human beings' relation to that which they regard as holy, sacred, spiritual, or divine. Religion is commonly regarded as consisting of a person's relation to God or to gods or spirits. Worship is probably the most basic element of religion, but moral conduct, right belief, and participation in religious institutions are generally also constituent elements of the religious…

religion... (75 of 218 words)

Austerlitz -- 88.72.21.39 18:05, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of religion once again

There is no need to force contentious material into the entry without discussing it first. It was successfully kept out of the entry once already, hence I think some discussion is in order instead of simply reverting. Can someone explain how this is 1) notable 2) not a synthesis and 3) not OR?PelleSmith 23:21, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Note: For those interested in this discussion it should be noted that the parent entry of this information, which was created today by the same editor who added it back to this entry, has also been nominated for deletion. Comments would also be appreciated at the AfD. Thanks.PelleSmith 23:29, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

  • It is notable because it is scientists say so. Around 50,000 years ago for the first time very elaborate burials of humans become ubiquitious. These burials are indicative that belief in the afterlife had fully matured by 50000 years ago.
  • It is notable because this is what archaeologists have dug up.
  • It is a synthesis by notable scholars not by wikipedians.

Muntuwandi 23:28, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

No it is a synthesis by you, quite clearly. Also none of what you have mentioned proves anything about the existence of religion. Its just speculation, and not very notable at that. Do you have any references for the synthesis itself and not for sporadic facts from archeology?PelleSmith 23:31, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
As long as it is speculation by reputable scientists, then that is fine. I mean evolution is speculation too. Muntuwandi 23:34, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Not quite at this level, and Evolution is notable.PelleSmith 23:35, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Where does evolution fit in with religion, I don't see any mention in this article or in the article Development of religion that mentions aspects of human evolution and religion. If humans did evolve, then religion must have evolved with them. This is why I created the article. Muntuwandi 23:44, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I was careful to add citations in that section to anything that may have seemed like a synthesis. Could someone please say what the problem is? What claims are unreferenced that should be? TCC (talk) (contribs) 01:20, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
References to individual facts that are part of a novel synthesis do not circumvent WP:OR issues. Lets paste the text you ended up with here, with references and take a look at it.PelleSmith 02:27, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TEXT

Every human culture has possessed beliefs in spirits, gods and the supernatural.[3] Each culture having its own unique beliefs about the origins of the universe and the role of humans. However recently a number of scholars have began to search for secular reasons as to how religion may have arisen and why it is so ubiquitous. According to the Recent single origin hypothesis, anatomically modern humans emerged less than 200,000 years ago and around 50,000 years ago humans began dispersing out of Africa to populate the rest of the world.[4] This has led many scientists to suggest that when humans dispersed 50,000 years ago from Africa, all the traits characteristic of modern human behavior, including religion and language had evolved. For example science writer Nicholas Wade states:

"Like most behaviors that are found in societies throughout the world, religion must have been present in the ancestral human population before the dispersal from Africa 50,000 years ago. Although religious rituals usually involve dance and music, they are also very verbal, since the sacred truths have to be stated. If so, religion, at least in its modern form, cannot pre-date the emergence of language. It has been argued earlier that language attained its modern state shortly before the exodus from Africa. If religion had to await the evolution of modern, articulate language, then it too would have emerged shortly before 50,000 years ago. -- The Dawn: Discovering the lost history of our ancestors

[edit] Comments

Half of what is left is a block quote from a completely non-notable individual who is not an authority on religion at all. What the block quote speculates about is not in any way commonly accepted fact. BTW what does it mean that he is a "science writer"? Is this even an academic? Sure the Recent single origin hypothesis may be more commonly accepted than the Multiregional hypothesis, but the implications to "religion" and the origin thereof are spurious at best. For instance even the idea that religion and religious ritual has to have post-dated language is not in any way commonly held. Roy Rappaport, who is a recognized authority in the field of the anthropology of religion, in fact suggests the opposite (to give one example). Conversely, lets say that religion post-dates the development of language (the dating of which is also disputed btw) why are we to believe that it developed soon after the development of language? Similarly, as Muntuwandi is suggesting elsewhere, why are we to believe that the existence of burial practices, or the theory that elephants understand something about death, in any way means anything substantive about the development of religion? These are just spurious associations aimed at one thing and one thing alone. Proving that religion developed out of Africa. The issue here is that some basic and perhaps mostly agreed upon facts, like the Recent single origin hypothesis are being used to provide a foundation upon which to add speculations about the origin of religion made by people who are not authorities in the field. That is why its a synthesis and why its OR.PelleSmith 02:47, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Then cut the bit about the single origin theory, since that seems to be the problem, unless the connection can be sourced.
The "non-notable individual" is a science writer for the New York Times and has a number of popular science books in print. Interviewing researchers and presenting their work is what he does. If the goal is to come up with some kind of idea about what the consensus view is at this point, this is exactly the kind of source we should be looking at because we can't get this information from primary sources (i.e. scholarly papers, which naturally present the hypotheses of their authors and are not intended as overviews.) Let's at least grant him the benefit of some kind of editorial review. One doesn't have to be an expert on a subject to write a book about it if what you're doing is reporting hypotheses put out by others, which is mainly what he's doing here. Yes, it would be better to source him than to plop down a blockquote. The right thing to do is to fix it, not delete it. And if there are other points of view on the subject -- if (as I know is the case) the question is far from settled, then present them. Don't delete a section just because it disagrees with the researchers you know about. Especially a section on a subject that really ought to be discussed here. TCC (talk) (contribs) 03:04, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
PelleSmith, the Neanderthals were burying their dead in Europe and in Iraq 300,000 years ago. Elephants are also found in India. What has that got to do with Africa. Muntuwandi 03:44, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
All of the connections made to Religion, the actual subject matter of this entry, are completely speculative. In fact any "theory" about the origin of religion, whether secular or religious in nature, is equally speculative. If there are enough notable theories that are similar in nature they deserve a generalized mention in terms of the origin and development of religion. I certainly agree with that. The problem is that there is nothing notable here except for the basic premises that aren't even about religion but about evolution and human development. You suggest getting rid of the single origin theory, but if we do that what is left? Let me take a stab at answering that.
  1. Useless generalizations like "Every human culture has possessed beliefs in spirits, gods and the supernatural."
  2. Problematic generalizations like "Each culture having its own unique beliefs about the origins of the universe and the role of humans."--for instance many cultures share belief systems or aspects of belief systems with other cultures.
  3. False statements like "However recently a number of scholars have began to search for secular reasons as to how religion may have arisen and why it is so ubiquitous."--Not only was this secular concern foundational to the study of religion, but also to the very disciplines of sociology and anthropology. See for instance Edward Burnett Tylor. Of course such theories have long been discarded due to their highly speculative nature.
  4. Unverified speculations like "This has led many scientists to suggest that when humans dispersed 50,000 years ago from Africa, all the traits characteristic of modern human behavior, including religion and language had evolved."--many scientists believe that "religion" developed 50,000 years ago? The only reference here is a block quote not from a scientist but from journalist.
This same journalist, in said block quote, suggests that religion has to post-date language, and hence given the single origin hypothesis most probably developed 50,000 years ago in Africa. So if we believe that religion has to post-date language, and we believe the single origin hypothesis then it isn't a stretch to state that religion came out of Africa 50,000 years ago. That's a lot of ifs.PelleSmith 04:39, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

The single origin hypothesis is becoming less and less of an if but more of a reality. How do you interpret this

"the Upper Paleolithic marks the first time in history where a substantial number of females were buried with elaborate grave goods, indicating an elevation in their social status .
"Deep cave sites in combination with the evidence for elaborate burials and fertility concerns suggest that the Upper Paleolithic marks the emergence of something new in religion: exclusive rituals that existed alongside community-wide ones."[5].

These are not ifs. If people are burying their dead with grave goods, it involves some aspect of ritual and belief in the afterlife. And scientists have dated these events to 50000 years ago, how can this be original research. Muntuwandi 04:57, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

What you have said is completely speculative. What if burying people with goods was a means of settling disputes over inheritance? What if burying people with goods was done because the surviving members of the group believed a dead person's tools were cursed (btw superstition and or belief in something akin to "magic" does not = the existence of "religion")? What if burying someone with their goods was done because early humans weren't sure initially about death and in case the lifeless body presented them were in fact not dead it may become angry to find out its possessions had gone missing? And the list could go on and on and on. There is no way to factually claim that burial or the existence of grave goods means a belief in the after life. Organized ritual behavior does suggest an elaborated and organized way of dealing with something like death, but again to draw the link, as if it were simply obvious, from this to what we consider "religion" is speculative at best.PelleSmith 05:07, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
This is not my opinion, but mainstream consensus on Grave goods is that the represent some sort of superstitious belief, most likely in the afterlife. The goods will be taken with them into the afterlife. This is well established you see it in several tombs of the Ancient Egyptians as well. It is not mere speculation, it is mainstream consensus. Muntuwandi 05:13, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Mummification and specialized grave goods designed to aid in the afterlife (such as small human figures called ushabtis) are also characteristic of Egyptian burial practice (Smith 1992)[6] for example.

  • Grave goods - Objects placed within human burials to equip a person for the afterlife or to identify the deceased.definition

Most of the more complete human skeletons from before the Middle Palaeolithic and Middle Stone Age appear to be the result of extraordinarily favourable taphonomic contexts. No evidence for deliberate burials exists for the Lower Palaeolithic or ESA. Despite arguments to the contrary by Gargett (1989, 1999) and other colleagues, there are a wealth of Middle Palaeolithic human skeletons that seem to have been buried deliberately (Solecki, 1971; Trinkaus, 1983; Defleur, 1993). Such burials could be motivated by purely practical factors like the need to dispose of undesirable cadavers, but it is more likely that the numerous burials of Neanderthals and anatomically modern humans of the Middle Palaeolithic reflect the deliberate burial of kin and are linked to personal and emotional ties between the living and the dead. Defleur (1993) has summarised much of the evidence for Middle Palaeolithic burials and points to a number of convincing cases in Europe and the Levant. The question of the deliberate inclusion of grave goods and the identification of specific ritual practices is more contentious and difficult to demonstrate beyond doubt.

In the Upper Palaeolithic the data are unambiguous, and many burials preserve opulent grave goods that reflect the status of the individuals and the needs of the dead in the afterlife. An overview of the patterns of behavioural change in Africa and Eurasia during the Middle and Late Pleistocene

We will likely never know when the first religious idea was born, but a substantial number of researchers have concluded that the art, artifacts, and burial practices of the Upper Paleolithic reflect religious sentiments (Breuil, 1952/1979; Dickson, 1990; Dowson & Porr, 2001; Hayden, 2003; Leroi-Gourhan, 1982; Lewis-Williams, 2002; Lommel, 1967; Mithen, 1996; Winkelman, 2002; see Hamayon & Francfort, 2001 for a contrary view).The Religious Mind and the Evolution of Religion Matt J. Rossano Southeastern Louisiana University Muntuwandi 07:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Getting back to the point

Look the point here is, and always has been, from my perspective at least, that any notable and sourceable aspect of these speculations belong in Development of religion and perhaps even more relevantly in Prehistoric religion. What is the problem with that assertion? Have you tried working with those entries, which most editors here would agree are the logical places for this type of material? After placing such information within its appropriate sub-context there one would have a better understanding of how, if at all, to mention it in a very summary manner here. You seem to have attempted to circumvent that process by creating a separate entry for this information. Other editors don't think your particular synthesis of material on human development with suggestions about religious belief merits an entry of its own when clearly it exists within the framework of the Development of religion and Prehistoric religion, and that is essentially what has caused a problem and has instigated the AfD of that entry. What do you have to say about this?PelleSmith 13:18, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Could we also have some more voices here? This shouldn't be an argument between two editors, besides I'm sick of making these particular arguments when the solution seems so simple (see directly above). I also suggest having a look User:Slrubenstein's comment on the AfD of the main entry, because it is highly pertinent.PelleSmith 13:27, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
I've commented on this before, above, and that still stands. One cannot use a 400-page book on cows as a decent source on birds just because one sentence says "birds often land on cows", and thereby, postulate that birds and cows are linked. However, that type of reasoning is precisely what is going on here, and it is wholly inappropriate. MSJapan 15:41, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
PelleSmith, the article Development of religion makes no reference to archaeological findings. It deals more with religion from a psychological perspective. Muntuwandi 19:23, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
If Development of religion isn't up to snuff then help fix it, and what about Prehistoric religion?PelleSmith 20:02, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
My understanding is those are different disciplines altogether, for example development of religion states

The development of religion is concerned with a variety of perspectives on the ways in which religions come into being and develop. Broadly speaking, three types of models provide different perspectives on the subject:

  • Models which see religions as social constructions;
  • Models which see religions as progressing toward higher, objective truth;
  • Models which see a particular religion as absolutely true;

There is no mention of what archaeologists have found regarding religion. This is a social science analysis of religion. The origin of religion deals mainly with information from archeology and evolutionary biology which goes back millions of years. The very first evidence of any sort of behavior that can be directly associated with any form of ritual, spirituality or religion is the intentional burial of the dead by the Neanderthals some 300,000 years ago. No other species on the planet is known to intentionally bury the dead, especially with the addition of grave goods. All this is not present in the development of religion, and is actually a distinct field. so to say that the origin of religion is a POV fork is incorrect, because they are not covering the same material. Muntuwandi 21:33, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Development of religion is deeply flawed by design and needs to be split into at least three independent articles, one of them history of religion. This latter should include a section on prehistoric religion, and one of the origin of religion, which in turn should discuss Anthropology of religion. Theological discussions on "progressive revelation" are offtopic to this and belong in separate articles. dab (𒁳) 15:33, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I think you are right but trying to jam this particular view on the origin of religion into this entry and creating a seperate entry Origin of religion without as much as attempting to engage Development of religion is not the way to achieve this--ditto goes for creating an entry that isn't a neutral space for engaging various theories of religion's origin. Clearly archaeological speculations about the origin of behaviors and beliefs that relate to what we currently consider "religion" are not just interesting but important. That very fact however makes what the Muntuwandi is trying to do here all the more problematic. He doesn't seem interested in working with anyone to provide a solid, notable and well referenced account of theories (not one liners but theories) that suggest something akin to what he's claiming and to do so in what others have suggested are good starting locations. He wants his poorly documented and partly synthesized evolutionary perspective to be presented as the explanation of religion's origin, or perhaps more precisely the affirmative dating of religion's origin. He repeatedly shows no interest in adding information to either Development of religion or Prehistoric religion. Again, the first entry is clearly flawed, and the second is a stub, but aren't these the logical starting points here? Don't you find it problematic to go around suggesting that this material be presented as the Origin of religion?PelleSmith 16:12, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
The question is whether religion has a biological basis. Humans are social creatures, and our ability to socialize is built into our biology. The question arises is whether religion is biologically based, when in the process of human evolution did humans become religious. Nobody knows the exact details, but there is plenty of evidence from archeology to make sound inferences. The article origin of religion should present the major scientific theories on religion. These beliefs are entirely secular, so if one does not believe in evolution, they shouldn't bother reading them. Scientists are actively debating these issues. As yet no person has made an y direct challenge of the information contained in the article. Muntuwandi 19:00, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Update--I have provided an in depth analysis of the entire entry that addresses this issue. You can't miss it because its huge. Just go to Talk:Origin of religion. Cheers.PelleSmith 00:12, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Demographics

The demographics part is taking up too much space here, and duplicates material at major religious groups. It is a nightmare to maintain, and should only be featured in one central place. Either split it to major religious groups, or merge both into a new religious demographics article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dbachmann (talk • contribs) 21:23, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Could you add this following link to external links please?

Could someone please add the following link to the external links section please. http://religion.wikia.com/, this is the main religion wiki on Wikia. It provides a place for everything missing from this article to live. Rev Bem 18:13, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Confucianism is a religion?

Ridiculous.Then we should call Maxism, Leninism "religion". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 2ndlife (talk • contribs) 14:56, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of religion

We have a link to the development of religion and a section titled "origins and development". Yet there is no information discussing the origin of religion. If we have agreed on some of the content of the origin of religion then we should have something written. I am requesting a volunteer to write one or two paragraphs. If nobody volunteers I shall do so myself. Muntuwandi 22:27, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Before you insert anything in the article, you should put your suggestions on the talk page. Based on your previous work, your content is off-topic, has undue weight, and is a synthesis of work, leading the reader to certain conclusions. Regards, -- Jeff3000 23:11, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Since you dispute the information I am adding, I am requesting someone else to write about the origins of religion. You can do so yourself. But necessary information regarding this very important topic is missing. Muntuwandi 23:13, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reality of Unreality

Nowhere in this article can one find the following words, all of which relate to evaluating religion's effect, growth, and validity: birthrate, control, exploit, gender, government, invisible, majority, poverty, totalitarian, war (non-intellectual). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.220.212.152 (talk) 00:02, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Animals in religion --- ought to be mentioned somewhere in the article

According to religious and scientific views, most of human beings are evolved from animals, except for the celestial figures who discended from outer space, right? Therefore, animals are our ancesters in roots, and mention them pls.

[edit] No matter how holy the animals are in religion, they are animals....

holy animals maybe more sincere than human being, but they are much less wiser than humans. Therefore risk management should be implemented for religious use of animals and their souls that are of tasks, so does for food.

[edit] Pls add a link from Religion and ecology to the article

it is an important subject of religion

[edit] Please mention all the TV programs about religion in the article....

including Compass (TV series), and sincere/genuine/objective contents from TV channel of The Word Network, 3ABN

TV programs are important media for people to embrace various ideas, cultures, spiritual and religious knowledges which promote the understanding of the ethnics of all kinds

[edit] Revamp of Criticism section

Buddhism does in fact involve a belief in god (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Buddhism), this is a western misconception. I think the section singiling out Buddhism is inaccurate and should be removed. 82.113.39.26 (talk) 16:58, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

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