Template talk:Countries of Europe

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  1. March 2004 – October 2006 (overlaps 2)
  2. May 2006 – Nov 2006 (overlaps 1)
  3. February 2007 – July 2007
  4. August 2007 – May 2008


Contents

[edit] Footnotes

Would it be possible to remove the footnotes from this template? I mean, the purpose of this template is to provide navigational aid. Not to give a detailed definition of what Europe really is. I think it is totally irrelevant to inform the reader of the Sweden article that Norway has dependencies or similar territories outside Europe. That kind of information is better provided in prose in the relevant articles, and not in this navigational template. By removing these footnotes, this template get neater and uses less space. I think it would be an improvement. --Kildor (talk) 18:51, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Some of the footnotes can be relevant even on navigational bases. And I don't see why a short explanation why certain countries that aren't always defined as European are in here. --Jhattara (Talk · Contrib) 07:56, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Edit request: Update footnote

{{editprotect}} Could someone change footnote 5 currently reading: Declared independence from Serbia on February 17, 2008 and is recognised by 44 countries.. These number changed. It is now either 45 or 46 (if you count Taiwan as a country). See International reaction to the 2008 Kosovo declaration of independence. Cheers Gugganij (talk) 13:39, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Not done for now: - no way am I going to make the call over whether to put 45 or 46 :D. Find me a consensus for one number or the other. Happy‑melon 19:45, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

{{editprotected}} I think that for NPOV the footnote 5 should read: Declared independence from Serbia on February 17, 2008 and is recognised by 45 UN member states. That would remove the need for debate whether Taiwan is a country or not. --Jhattara (Talk · Contrib) 09:15, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Done That'll do. Happy‑melon 13:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merge of this, CoE and EU templates

Nearly all European countries are in the Council of Europe, and now most CoE countries are members of the European Union. So, rather than having three separate templates: Template:Countries of Europe, Template:Council of Europe and Template:Members of the European Union (EU), why not merge them but simply better organise the entries so it is not one long confusing list;

v • d • e
Countries of Europe
Members of the
European Union
Austria · Belgium · Bulgaria · Cyprus1 · Czech Republic · Denmark1 · Estonia · Finland · France1 · Germany · Greece  · Hungary · Ireland · Italy1 · Latvia · Lithuania · Luxembourg · Malta · Netherlands1 · Poland · Portugal1 · Romania · Slovakia · Slovenia · Spain1 · Sweden · United Kingdom1
Other members of
the Council of Europe
Other countries
1 Partly outside Europe, including dependencies, or entirely outside of Europe but with socio-political connections with Europe. 2 Name disputed by Greece, recognised by some states as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia; see Macedonia naming dispute. 3 Independence is only recognised by one state or only a part of the international community.

(User:JLogan/Sandbox 2) - JLogant: 16:07, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I have no strong opinion, but these are my concerns:

- SSJ ☎ 19:23, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. I do admit that CIS etc would be a problem, I was thinking about people adding EU candidates, potential candidates etc etc but I figured that given the level of protection over this template already, agreed lines could be enforced. As for an argument for EU / CoE: they have a dominant membership. We could just do a CoE & Europe template, which would also get around the MOS point on the EU member page. As for other templates, I don't think it would add any coherence, it can be done on a case by case basis.- JLogant: 20:28, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Georgia

Georgia is not part of Europe, even if it is member state of the Council of Europe (also the US are member of the Council of Europe, with observer status). Geographically, Georgia is in Asia. --Bachforelle (talk) 18:29, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

It is transcontinental, and hence it is in both. And it is a full member, US is observer as non-european countries can only be observers.- J.Logan`t: 18:42, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Please look at this map showing the border, and note the valid geographical (not political or cultural) definition since Philip Johan von Strahlenberg. --Bachforelle (talk) 06:32, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry but that map just doesn't seem to depict all the POVs of the border between Europe and Asia. See Map of Europe for yet another view. It is widely accepted that the Bosporus and the watershed at the Ural Mountains and Ural river are definite borders. As of the border between Black Sea and the Caspian Sea there are many competing definition, of which no one certain correct one has been established. One of the more widely accepted definitions is the watershed of Caucasus Mountains. That would put Azerbaijan and Georgia partially into Europe. --Jhattara (Talk · Contrib) 07:34, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
I can find many Google hits underlying your position, but no scientific literature. --Bachforelle (talk) 07:49, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Well, I have no quick access to actual scientific literature concerning the subject. In Wikipedia articles List of countries spanning more than one continent and Borders of the continents the most widely used western definition is stated to be the Greater Caucasus watershed. In Botc articles it is also mentioned that in German speaking and Slavic countries a more northern definition is used more often. I cannot, at least quickly, find any concrete scientific research to back the view I share with e.g. European Union, Oxford Reference Online, BBC, Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary and National Geographic Society. --Jhattara (Talk · Contrib) 08:37, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm thinking the NGS is scientific... point is, it is commonly held that these are the geographical borders of Europe, and it is stated that they are partly in Asia. politically, Georgia is seen as European, albeit in on the edge. It is accepted by the Council of Europe (which seems to to now be the modern political authority on the boundaries of Europe (and as we are dealing with states....), and similar international bodies. It also has a certain amount of self identity with Europe which is important from the cultural connections. Besides, why are you so bothered by this?- J.Logan`t: 10:16, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
NGS is a publisher of popular magazines etc., not exactly a scientific resource. I am concerned, because WP should not push non-established theories. Why are we always quoting websites, politicians etc, rather than a simple undergraduate textbook? --Bachforelle (talk) 12:14, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
This is hardly non-established, and even if this were disputed there is nothing wrong in choosing the wider theory for the purposes of inclusion. As I have said we are dealing with states so we need to look at the political reality. Furthermore, National Geographic Society is hardly just a publisher! It is an extremely respected institution and authority that has simply made use of media outlets. - J.Logan`t: 12:34, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
This "extremely respected institution and authority" claims that Gibraltar is an island ... (National Geographic Desk Reference, p. 660) --Bachforelle (talk) 08:32, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Also according to CNN, it is in Asia [1] --Bachforelle (talk) 12:28, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Footnote update

Kosovo footnote (5) should be updated as Malta recognized Kosovo making it 46 UN member states.

Source?  Sandstein  21:27, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Malta recognizes Kosovo as an independent State (Maltese Ministry of Foreign Affairs) Gugganij (talk) 01:29, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Malta was the 46th state. May I refer you to International reaction to the 2008 Kosovo declaration of independence, where all recognitions are referenced with a source. Gugganij (talk) 10:31, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Please update the sandbox and then re-enable the editprotected request so that the changes can more easily be synced. Cheers. --MZMcBride (talk) 23:41, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
I changed the figure from 45 to 46 in the sandbox. Gugganij (talk) 09:12, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
Updated in the template. Thanks. -- ChrisO (talk) 17:13, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Abkhazia and South Ossetia

{{editprotected}} As Russia now has officially recognised Abkhazia and South Ossetia, they should be added to this template, like Kosovo. --83.249.240.108 (talk) 13:41, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

If we are to list territories recognized by only one country, then Northern Cyprus should be included as well (as long as the geographically Asian Cyprus is). But on the other hand, there's Template:Non-sovereign territories of Europe for this kind of entity. That's not to say I don't see the obvious problem with including Kosovo (recognized by 46 UN members) as a country but not Abkhazia (recognized by 1 UN member). Where are we drawing the line? Wherever we draw it, it will come off as OR. -- Jao (talk) 14:13, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
We could have drawn the line at recognition by >50% of UN member states as have been proposed, as it makes some sense. That would disqualify Kosovo though.
Drawing the line at recognition from 5, 20 or 40 UN member states is just unacceptably ad hoc, so if Kosovo should be on this template then Abkhazia and South Ossetia should as well. --83.249.240.108 (talk) 14:53, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
There is no choice, really: we now must include Abkhazia and South Ossetia among the Wikipedia list of European countries. International law cares only about the existence of diplomatic links, regardless of their quantity. Kosovo is recognized by 46 UN members and not recognized by 146; therefore, it has partial international recognition. Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Northern Cyprus are recognized by one State each, and this also qualifies as partial international recognition. There is absolutely no legal difference between these four European countries. It's also the case of Taiwan (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Countries_of_Asia ), another country which is not a member of the United Nations.201.83.165.226 (talk) 14:59, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
I quite agree, one recognition is equal to 50 or 100. We either have Kosovo with Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Northern Cyprus or do not include any country that is not recognised by every single UN member.- J.Logan`t: 15:08, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Then we do not include the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Luxembourg and People's Republic of China. Colchicum (talk) 21:28, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
You mean Liechtenstein? --83.249.240.108 (talk) 22:17, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
It's not the same thing at all. South Ossetia/Abkhazia are now in exactly the same position as Northern Cyprus: recognized only by one country which has intervened militarily in their support, and which is in effect their patron and protector. Kosovo is currently in much the same position as some of the former Soviet and Yugoslav republics not long after their declarations of independence - recognized by a substantial number (but not a majority) of UN member states, including, importantly, the large majority of its peers in Europe. One recognition is certainly not equal to 50 or 100. As things stand, no other countries have even indicated that they will recognize the two breakaways - again, completely unlike Kosovo. The concept of recognition in international law is a fuzzy thing, but it requires multiple states and preferably the UN to do the recognizing, not a single state as in this case. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:38, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

(undent) Actually it is quite clear that Russia is playing the Kosovo card. They do exactly what the West has done in Kosovo. I expect some more peripheral recognitions from Russian satellites and possibly China. The question is, where is the limit? I can agree with the >50% rule, which of course disqualifies Kosovo as well. EU or NATO countries do not have any moral superiority or whatever ChrisO might be inferring by using the word "importantly". --   Avg    19:46, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, Russia has its allies too. Kosovo was just backed by a power that could get more countries on board, the practical effect is the same, we can't go around drawing arbitrary lines.- J.Logan`t: 19:52, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
I very much doubt that any other states will recognize the breakaways. It sets too much of a precedent for their own separatists and China certainly will not, given its hostility to what it calls "splittism". As I said before, there's a big difference between Russia and "the West" (not even an accurate term anyway, given that many non-Western countries have recognized Kosovo - see International reaction to the 2008 Kosovo declaration of independence). In the case of Russia and South Ossetia/Abkhazia, as I said, you have a situation that is exactly parallel to that of Turkey and Northern Cyprus. No other country in the world has recognized NC. In the case of Kosovo, recognition was initially granted by seven countries (two of which are non-Western) on the same day, then 39 more to date. It wasn't simply a case of being "backed by a power that could get more countries on board" - Kosovo's backing by the US was influential but was certainly not determinative (after all, many US allies have still not recognized Kosovo). In other words, South Ossetia/Abkhazia are following precisely the example set by NC, but Kosovo is following a different path - there isn't a precise equivalent, but the example of Lithuania in 1991 is probably the closest comparison. A mechanistic approach such as a 50% cutoff simply isn't appropriate - as I said, the criteria for "international recognition" are fuzzy anyway. All we can really do is be pragmatic about it and list a state when it has attained a meaningful level of recognition, i.e. by a significant number of other states, not just by one or two. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:04, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Agree or alternatively add Kosovo, TRNC, Abkhazia etc. to a footnote. Even according to tge Russian TV news - fully fledged independence is gained only once the country is recognized by the UN. --Avala (talk) 20:09, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Would UN recognition be more meaningful then? It has been proposed here on Wiki quite a few times. I don't expect Kosovo or S.Ossetia/Abkhazia to pass that hurdle (or NC for that matter).--   Avg    20:12, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Well for a good reason. They are not independent countries. Kosovo independence was declared as "supervised independence" per Ahtisaari plan which is a contradicting phrase itself.--Avala (talk) 20:28, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Having one or two recognitions doesn't not make it a country Ijanderson (talk) 20:16, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
UN recognition is not determinative. You might be interested in having a look at International recognition and Declarative theory of statehood. It was very much a live issue during the Yugoslav breakup in 1991 - there was a substantial period between Slovenia and Croatia declaring independence and their receiving UN recognition. During the interim period a substantial number of mostly European states recognized their independence (somewhat controversially). The bottom line is that countries that have been recognized as independent by only one or two other countries are not, in a general sense, recognized internationally as bona fide independent states, particularly if those states happen to be wholly dependent on their recognizers - as in the case of TRNC, South Ossetia and Abkhazia, none of which would even exist if it wasn't for the economic and military support of their patrons. Obviously there is a degree of hypocrisy at work here (I accept that you could make some similar arguments for Kosovo) but the general rule is that recognition must involve more than a single or even a handful of states for it to "stick". -- ChrisO (talk) 20:27, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
I repeat what I mentioned earlier. Kosovo independence is so called "supervised independence". It is at least to the US and EU (for Serbia it's not independence at all). So it means that per independence declaration Kosovo must have international presence and supervision.--Avala (talk) 20:31, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Are partially recognized countries allowed in this template or not? If they are then Abkhazia, Northern Cyprus, and South Ossetia belong here. If no partially recognized countries are allowed then Kosovo needs to be removed immediately. --Tocino 20:22, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

We've discussed this before. In brief, it depends on how "partial" their recognition is. We only added Kosovo once a significant number of states (the figure currently stands at 47) had recognized it. TRNC has never featured on the template, given that only one country recognizes it. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:29, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Anything below 96 countries is the same whether it's 1 or 95. You can't become the president if you have 25 votes and your opponent has 75. The same goes for independence. If you don't even have the majority it's not much of an independence as the majority considers it not to be one. I stay with my footnote proposal for TRNC, Kosovo, Abkhazia and Ossetia.--Avala (talk) 20:28, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


ChrisO, you are definitely contradicting yourself. Considering Kosovo, and why Kosovo should be included on this template, you said this:
"I suggest that the most equitable solution would be to add a new line to this template underneath the main list, titled "Partially recognised states of Europe". The criteria for inclusion in this category should be (1) full control of its claimed territory (i.e. not a virtual state); (2) a formal declaration of independence; (3) recognition by at least one UN member state. This would be a clear and stable set of criteria." (this was copied from here: Template_talk:Countries_of_Europe/Archive_4#What_to_do_about_Kosovo.3F)
Quite remarkable. --83.249.240.108 (talk) 20:28, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
I agree to that plan whenever it was made.--Avala (talk) 20:32, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
I don't agree with it, as I would prefer only states beyond question when it comes to international recognition in this list, but he should at least follow his own policy. --83.249.240.108 (talk) 20:36, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
We dig a hole for the future if we try to set limits. Personally, I think we should just decide to either include states with any recognition, or, limit it only to UN members (hence de facto widely recognised by int. community). That woiuld be the only legitimate division.- J.Logan`t: 21:20, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
People seem to be approaching this from a binary point of view - recognised vs non-recognised. In fact, there's a spectrum of recognition - from none at all (e.g. Transnistria) to minimal (TRNC, South Ossetia, Abkhazia) to partial (Kosovo, Taiwan) and finally to full (any country that has UN recognition). In addition a few entities have a special diplomatic status even though they aren't generally recognised internationally (Palestine, Western Sahara). As a general rule, though, the international community does not accept the legitimacy of states with a minimal level of recognition. It didn't in the case of TRNC and it won't in the case of South Ossetia and Abkhazia because of the TRNC precedent. Likewise, as we've followed the general approach of the international community in not listing TRNC as a "country of Europe" since this template was created over four years ago, we should continue that approach now. If South Ossetia and Abkhazia gain anything more than minimal recognition - i.e. more than a handful of recognitions - then we can of course revisit the issue, but it's premature to list them at the moment. -- ChrisO (talk) 15:04, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
This is incredible hypocrisy. A few questions:
1) Was your earlier post considering Kosovo not to be taken seriously?
2) Who are the international community that decide which states that are legitimate or not? You seem to consider the international community to consist out of the EU and USA.
3) Exactly how many recognitions are a handful of recognitions? Don't you think this a-handful-of-recognitions-criteria is a bit ad hoc? --83.249.240.108 (talk) 15:28, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
1) Silly question, doesn't deserve a response.
2) It's a vague term, but it's generally taken to mean a consensus of the UN's member states - not just particular power blocs. "The West" was not the international community by itself, nor was the old Warsaw Pact when it existed. The UN position has always been that TRNC is an illegal state and it has refused to recognise it on that basis.
3) Not really - we've always taken the approach that states with minimal recognition don't qualify for listing here (hence the omission of TRNC, which has been the case from the date this template was created). States with partial recognition do get listed in country templates: Kosovo in this one, Western Sahara in Template:Countries of Africa, Taiwan in Template:Countries of Asia. I don't think that it's necessarily helpful to define cut-off points between the various levels of recognition. Let's just see how many countries end up recognising the breakaways. -- ChrisO (talk) 15:56, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
1) Let me clarify: I want to know why your three point criteria for inclusion on this template, that was applicated on Kosovo, was suddenly obsolete when Abkhazia and South Ossetia was recognised by Russia.
2) So, your earlier point was that the 23 UN member states that recognise RoC or the 46 that recognise Kosovo are more than the single one that recognises Abkhazia and South Ossetia? I can see that as well. But there are 146 and 169 UN member states that does not recognise Kosovo and RoC respectively, and in the case of Kosovo quite a few of them have expressed that they consider the statelet downright illegitimate. Do you include them when talking of the views of the international community?
3) I believe there is great value in policy - it lessens arbitrary rule. Would you mind explaining in what span a handful of states are? 5, 10, 25? --83.249.240.108 (talk) 04:22, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
1) I see what you're saying now. I proposed originally that there should be a "partially recognised states" subsection, but that suggestion didn't get widespread support, so I abandoned the idea. It's not that it's "obsolete", it's simply that people didn't feel it was workable.
2) Obviously the international community is substantially divided over Kosovo, less so over RoC. (Bear in mind that the two are not directly analogous. Recognising RoC necessarily means not recognising PRC, and vice-versa; recognising Kosovo has no implications for recognising Serbia, which is in any case a far less important country than China). On the other hand, there's an overwhelming consensus on TRNC and currently at least the same is true for South Ossetia and Abkhazia. If that consensus breaks down and more countries start to recognise the breakaways, that potentially changes the situation as far as we're concerned. Don't think that I'm dogmatically opposed to adding them to the template - it would certainly be appropriate if they receive more than minimal recognition. It's just that they haven't reached that point yet, and there's no sign so far that they will.
3) As I already said, I don't think specific numbers are particularly useful. But I think that if the number of recognitions gets into double figures, that will be significant. -- ChrisO (talk) 17:26, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

N Edit declined, no consensus yet. Please use {{editprotected}} only after consensus is achieved.  Sandstein  21:28, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Update: it seems like Belarus is about to regonise both republics too, according to Swedish national radio[2]. Plus, both republics recognise each other. --83.249.240.108 (talk) 22:24, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Abkhazia and South Ossetia, part 2

With the recent recognition of Abkhazia and South Ossetia by Nicaragua (which is hardly their "patron", to employ the term used by ChrisO), these two Caucasian States now have more than "minimal recognition". The above discussion is therefore moot. Now there is absolutely no legal difference between the standings of Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Kosovo, Taiwan and Western Sahara, all of which are non members of the United Nations with partial (albeit minority) international recognition. On these grounds, I would like to call for the inclusion of the two aforementioned post-Georgian republics on this Wikipedia list.201.83.165.226 (talk) 16:21, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I'd say we should wait a bit more before editing this template. --Jhattara (Talk · Contrib) 19:30, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
I agree. It's still minimal recognition. Kosovo and Western Sahara have 46 recognisers and Taiwan has 23; that's a different league from Abkhazia and South Ossetia. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:43, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Western Sahara is not a state, it is a territory. It is the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic which claims the land of Western Sahara. The republic is recognised by 43 states but is not included in the countries of Africa template. --83.249.240.108 (talk) 11:35, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Umm, yes it is - both as Western Sahara (look at the North Africa line of Template:Countries of Africa) and as the SADR at the bottom of the template. -- ChrisO (talk) 11:48, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Replied in the following section. --83.249.240.108 (talk) 12:29, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kosovo

Hmmm. I can't comment on the discussion above, but Kosovo clearly doesn't belong in the template. All of the rest are UN member states (or observers - Vatican). A couple are UN member states which are not recognised by a small number of countries, but UN nevertheless. The List of unrecognized countries gives a good breakdown. There's a reason we haven't included Northern Cyprus (and why there is no consensus for South Ossetia and Abkhazia) and it's the same reason why we shouldn't have Kosovo. I suspect that Kosovo sneaked through without full discussion. Perhaps the inclusion of Kosovo should be reviewed and included if a consensus is supportive? PolScribe (talk) 20:31, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Against inclusion. A partially-recognised state with de facto and not de jure independence, not a UN member state. Inclusion would open up a can of worms and undermine the very good case for not including every partially-recognised bit of land which some superpower would like to see independent. PolScribe (talk) 20:31, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Believe me, it has had extensive discussion (check out Template talk:Countries of Europe/Archive 4). I should point out that there isn't really such a thing as "de jure" independence - the predominate declarative theory of statehood holds that statehood is independent of recognition by other states, per the Montevideo Convention of 1933. States may or may not choose to recognise a self-declared state; that doesn't in itself make the self-declared state a legal or illegal entity. International law in this instance effectively amounts to what other countries say it is. In the case of partially-recognised states, we do already list some of these in our country templates - see Template:Countries of Africa (which lists Western Sahara) and Template:Countries of Asia (which lists Taiwan) - so your Rubicon has already been crossed. As you'll see from the discussion about the Georgian breakaway regions, I've argued that we should list only partially recognised states with a significant degree of recognition. Kosovo actually has considerably more recognition (46 states) than Taiwan (23) and about the same level as Western Sahara (~45 or so). The Georgian breakaways only have a minimal level of recognition, with only 2 states recognising them. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:12, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
The various theories of statehood aren't really relevant here. Kosovo is a state, just as the UK or Abkhazia (all three having population, territory, government and international relations). States of the World 101. This is a question of classification amongst those various states. Does Kosovo belong in the set of states in Europe which we would like to include in this template, or does it belong in a group of states which we are going to exclude. The critical question is: what is the deciding factor? I am proposing membership of the United Nations as the cut-off for this European template; you are proposing a 'significant degree of recognition'. My cut-off has the benefit of being objective and yielding a set of states which is uncontroversial; your cut-off is subjective ('Significant'? Is 42 the ultimate answer?! Whose votes count more - surely the Western and NATO votes should count double?) and leads to justified claims of inconsistency and bias. You yourself assert immediately above that two states have recognised South Ossetia - ergo you think Abkhazia and Transdnestria are states, and round and round we go again. Of course, you do have a deep knowledge of Kosovo having been a very regular contributor to debates on the various Kosovo pages, so perhaps you have some deeper insight for us which reveals Kosovo to be a special case: if in doubt, claim your subject to be sui generis! It is very clear that Kosovo does not belong in this group, or that if Kosovo stays in, so too must South Ossetia and Northern Cyprus. Check out the List of unrecognized countries for a very useful breakdown, fitting my cut-off, which yields a clear and unbiased split. PolScribe (talk) 21:33, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
There is a useful compromise: a state is included if it recognised by at least half of UN member states. This is not as objective as my solution, but it yields an uncontroversial outcome and is in keeping with international law. If we are going to pick a magic number (I don't think we should, but hey) then that number should not be 46 but 98, half of the number of UN member states. This then also supports your contention on 'minimal recognition': by definition, any state only recognised by only a minority of UN member states is minimally recognised. Kosovo and South Ossetia stay out and everybody's happy. Do you have a good reason to choose 46 over 98? PolScribe (talk) 21:52, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
As I pointed out, though, we already list partially recognised states with significant levels of recognition in other country templates. Listing Kosovo is merely following the precedent set a long time ago with the inclusion of Western Sahara and Taiwan. A UN recognition criterion doesn't work because, first, UN admission is not really determinative of anything (would you have excluded the People's Republic of China prior to 1971?); second, a substantial amount of time may elapse between international recognition and UN admission - in the case of the western Yugoslav republics there was a delay of about a year, likewise with the Baltic states; third, it doesn't reflect political realities - in the case of Kosovo, the majority of its immediate peers, the other states of Europe, accept Kosovo as a fellow state. As for the degree of recognition, as I argued above with regard to Abkhazia and South Ossetia, I don't think numerical cutoffs are useful. What matters is the extent of recognition. Nobody recognises Transnistria; Northern Cyprus is recognised by only one country (representing 0.5% of UN member states); the Georgian breakaways by two countries (1% of UN member states); Taiwan is recognised by 11% of member states; Kosovo and Western Sahara by about 24%. 11%, 24% and your 50% are all arbitrary numbers, but they represent a significant number of recognitions. 0.5% and 1%, by contrast, are insignificant by any description. The criterion for inclusion should therefore be that they are recognised by a significant number of UN member states. Don't forget, this template isn't a "Template:States recognised by the UN", in which case your criteria would be appropriate. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:27, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
I agree fully with Chris0. Removing Kosovo from this template would require us also to remove Republic of China from {{Countries of Asia}}, which would just start another edit war. And adding states with only minimal recognition wouldn't work, because next all the non-recognized states would want to be included. Significant recognition should be good enough criteria. --Jhattara (Talk · Contrib) 04:20, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
The real problem here is that you're defining minimal and significant recognition for your own purposes. Subjective limits allow POV to creep into the selection of states (as seems to have happened here) and gives rise to inconsistency. Kosovo, South Ossetia and Taiwan all have only minority recognition (minority being an objective not a subjective number: less than half of UN member states). As Chris O makes clear, you need to look at how statehood is treated. One recognition by a UN member is enough to consider a state recognised, or else we have to treat all of those minimally-recognised (i.e. less than half of states) equally. Less than half is not somehow 'significant'; it is minimal. Where is you boundary? 10? 15? 22? Who gets to decide this number? An arbitrary and objective view that the number of states recognising Kosovo is somehow 'significant', whereas some other number is not, is poor practice. We need to work on verifiable and broadly-accepted facts: the number of UN states recognising, and whether or not that number is more or less than a majority of UN members. Anything else is open to POV pushing, as has been the case with Kosovo. PolScribe (talk) 17:05, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
And just for emphasis, Kosovo is the only state in the entire template which is only de facto independent. All of the rest are accepted as de jure independent states, not claimed by any other state. Kosovo is a glaring exception. You need consistent treatment, or else you're presenting a biased Point of View on the status of other, comparable states. PolScribe (talk) 17:09, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
And, to treat Kosovo and South Ossetia differently is to be inconsistent with both List of European countries and List of unrecognized countries, which put both in the same category (and rightly so). I don't notice you argue there that Kosovo should be moved to some other category (and I see you're active in those pages). Please address directly why we should include a state with minority recognition, and only de facto independence, when not including others, and in conflict with standards on other established Wikipedia articles. You'll need a stronger argument than 'we've decided it's significant' to justify inclusion. PolScribe (talk) 17:21, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
There is already a precedent set in the {{Countries of Asia}}, where Republic of China (23 recognitions) is included and Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (1 recognition) is not included. So by that precedent Kosovo definitely should be on this template. Although that precedent is no longer fully valid with South Ossetia and Abkhazia, they are still much closer to TRNC situation than to ROC situation, which is why I would oppose them being in here. --Jhattara (Talk · Contrib) 18:11, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
There is no precedent set for states with two recognitions. Kosovo was added to the template with fewer than ten recognitions. --83.249.240.108 (talk) 11:26, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Once again, the question of Western Sahara serves only as a precedent to why Kosovo should NOT be included in this template. Western Sahara is not a state - it is a territory claimed by both Morocco and the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic. The Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic is recognised by about the same number of states as Kosovo, but is not included in the Countries of Africa template. --83.249.240.108 (talk) 11:47, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Yes it is - see the bottom of Template:Countries of Africa - and Western Sahara is also listed under "North Africa" in the same template. -- ChrisO (talk) 11:49, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
It's included in the template as an unrecognised state, yes. And it is put together with Puntland and Somaliland, both lacking international recognition. So we should either put Kosovo in a section for partial- and unrecognised states on this template, together with Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Transnistria, or remove it. --83.249.240.108 (talk) 12:19, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Edit request

{{editprotected}} Please change the Kosovo text I created {{Kosovorecognition}} to fix problems with syncing up numbers of recognition across articles, so please change:

"[[2008 Kosovo declaration of independence|Declared independence]] from Serbia on [[February 17]], [[2008]] and is recognised by 46 [[UN member states]]."

to:

"[[2008 Kosovo declaration of independence|Declared independence]] from Serbia on February 17, 2008 and is recognised by {{Kosovorecogition}} [[United Nations member states]]."

Note that I also de-linked dates per WP:DATE and avoided a redirect. Thanks. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 22:40, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Y Done. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 10:07, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Consistency

Non UN members belong in their own section or not in it at all. Kosovo, Northern Cyprus, Abkhazia and South Ossetia all share the same status in the world. the UN recognized owner does not control it, it is not a UN member and is recognised by at least 1 member state of the UN. Outside Europe, Taiwan and SADR do not control in full the territory they claim. This thing must be consistent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.217.59.87 (talk) 08:04, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

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