Talk:September 1

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This article is part of WikiProject Days of the Year, a Wikiproject dedicated to improving and maintaining the style guide for date pages.

--mav 00:13, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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Selected anniversaries for this day
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September 1: First day of Ramadan (Islam, 2008); Labor Day in the United States and Labour Day in Canada (2008); Start of the Liturgical year in the Eastern Orthodox Church; Constitution Day in Slovakia; Independence Day in Uzbekistan

Moscow Orphanage

More events: August 31 – September 1 – September 2

Archive – By email – More anniversaries...
It is now 15:11, October 31, 2008 (UTC) – Refresh this page

What evidence is there that the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed on September 1? -- goatasaur 00:14 Mar 26, 2003 (UTC)

Should we add that most schools start their terms this day (in case it's not a weekend)?

Patrickov 16:48, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I suppose school starts on different days in different places. Some places have no summer time off, some places are in the middle of winter right now .... -- PFHLai 18:44, 2004 Sep 1 (UTC)

--- I know that suggestions are unwelcome but the following is incorrect: In America, Labor Day is on September 1 --Wetman 08:30, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] 'Creation of the world in 5509 BC'

  • Should this really be listed in the 'events' section. After all, this section should be reserved for events that really did occur, surely. Not fictitious ones derived from religion and/or superstition? If nobody objects I'll move it somewhere else in a few days. Martyn Smith 07:13, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Maybe we should put it in some special place for religion? Anyway, people believed it was true so this is a part of our culture. People should know as much as possible. Igor Skoglund
I'm not sure if the Byzantines actually regarded 1 September 5509 as the date of Creation. Much more common among first millennium Christian historians, including early Byzantine historians like Maximus the Confessor, was to regard 25 March as the date of Creation (at the beginning of the first year in whatever system of year numbering used by that historian). Nevertheless, 1 September was certainly the epoch of the calendar used after the tenth century, that is, the years of the Julian calendar used by the later Byzantine Empire for civil purposes were numbered such that the first year began on 1 September 5509 BC. This method was also used by Russia from the end of the fifteenth century through AD 1699. In AD 1700 it adopted 1 January as the first day of the year and also adopted the Anno Domini era used by Western Europe (between AD 989 and the late fifteenth century Russia used Byzantine numbering from 1 March). Referring to it as an epoch removes all religious connotations—it becomes a simple historical fact. It is already listed as a Creation date in dating Creation, rightly or wrongly. — Joe Kress 10:36, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unprotect?

Since no discussion has occurred on this talk page on the topic for which this article was protected, I suggest that the article be unprotected and the topic in question (1758 founding of a US town) be removed. If discussion on this is required, perhaps this will get the ball rolling. I'd be glad to participate. -- Mufka (user) (talk) (contribs) 18:07, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

It should not be unprotected for that statement right there. The only reason you want it unprotected is to delete something. An admin thought it should remain when it was protected. This page should not be unprotected til everyone can think neutrally. - NeutralHomer T:C 19:53, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Please discuss the item and please Assume good faith on my part. I'd be glad to discuss the notability of the item. The article cannot remain protected forever. Discussion must take place. -- Mufka (user) (talk) (contribs) 21:48, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
I have assumed good faith, but User:Calton deletes what he wants. In Virginia history, it was extremely rare that a British Lord would come over for a founding of a town, not alone be apart of helping with it's charter. This was something big in 1758. - NeutralHomer T:C 22:17, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Can you provide some reference that places the founding of the town on September 1? -- Mufka (user) (talk) (contribs) 22:29, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
The information given is from the Newtown History Center (where I had ALOT of help from) located at newtownhistorycenter.org. The Newtown History Center is a kinda half independent/half state run history center located in Stephens City. So their information is about as correct as it can be. So, to be technical, the claim is from the State of Virginia, not myself. - NeutralHomer T:C 23:29, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
According to the record of the General Assembly of Virginia, the September 1758 session began on September 14. Therefore this event could not have occurred on September 1 so I don't see how it belongs in this article. Further, Thomas Fairfax was also a founding trustee of Winchester in 1752 - this was the same capacity that he had for Stephensburg. I'm trying to understand (earnestly) why the founding of this particular town is globally notable. -- Mufka (user) (talk) (contribs) 17:12, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Because it was very rare for the British to care about American politics or be involved in them. Now, the Winchester founding, I did not know about. But to have two foundings in 6 years in one county, even more rare. Remember, in about 20 years, it would be the beginning of the American Revolutionary War, so this is big.
As for the September 14th date, I don't know about that. The September 1 date is from the Newtown History Center, which got their information from the state, Colonial Williamsburg, among other places with many double checks. - NeutralHomer T:C 22:29, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Based on the source provided by Neutralhomer, the entry on this event is not accurate and it should be edited for that reason and probably deleted for lack of notability.
The source states in pertinent part "In September 1758...Lewis Stephens petitioned the colonial government of Virginia in Williamsburg for a town charter...Stephens succeeded in getting an act passed by Virginia’s Colonial General Assembly."
  • If the point by Mufka is correct and the Gen. Assembly of VA did not meet until September 14, this entry does not belong in this article.
  • The above quote from the source provided does not mention Lord Fairfax having any part in the charter, at very least the reference to him should be removed.
The source discusses the involvement of Fairfax in the founding of the town, and it was hardly a voyage to the colonies to found a new community. Fairfax was attempting to claim the land as his own property through an inheritance from his mother and a patent from King James II. These claims were over those of the land holders at the time and embroiled him in court battles. His involvement in local politics was incidental to his land ownership and included a unsuccessful bid to make his town the county seat.
Based on the information from the source, this entry could read: "Sept. 14, 1758- Lewis Stephens's proposal to found Stevensburgh is accepted by the Virginia colonial general assembly." But I would dispute the notability of that event. Jsh726 16:04, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't think it was that uncommon for a Lord to be interested in colonial politics. Many lords came to the colonies (Lord Baltimore, Lord De La Warr, Lord Botetourt). The only thing I can find interesting about Fairfax was that he made America his home and died there - but I haven't looked into all of the other lords very deeply. As far as the reference for the General Assembly date it is on page 171 of (an old book so I'll try to cite it properly):
  • Hening, William Waller, The Statutes at Large. Vol. 7. Richmond: Franklin Press, 1820.
"At a General Assembly, begun and held at the Capitol, in Williamsburg, on Thursday the fourteenth day of September, in the thirty-second year of the reign of our sovereign lord George II. by the grace of God, of Great-Britain, France, and Ireland, king, defender of the faith, &c. and in the year of our Lord 1758; being the first session of this assembly."
Stephensburg and Leesburg are established at the same time and Winchester is enlarged. Fairfax is one of many trustees of all three towns. This is covered in the above referenced item on pages 234-236 under the heading:
"An Act erecting a town on the land of Lewis Stephens, in the county of Frederick: For enlarging the town of Winchester, and for erecting a town on the land of Nicholas Monor, in the county of Loudoun."
Many more towns were founded in subsequent and previous sessions. Stephensburg was not the first or the last. I feel that it should definitely be removed from this article and I don't believe it is notable for any article. -- Mufka (user) (talk) (contribs) 00:04, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I love that you have these references and don't use them for the Virginia articles. Please use some of these for the Virginia articles as we need much help.
But, living in Virginia and working with the Newtown History Center, located in Stephens City, who got their information from the Frederick County and State of Virginia via the Virginia Historical Society, I tend to go with them. So, Lord Fairfax was here for the foundings of three towns, only ONE charter, Stephens City. I am sorry, but I have to go with the Virginia Historical Society, Frederick County and the Newtown History Center over a book. - NeutralHomer T:C 00:14, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't have these resources. I went and got them for this discussion. Perhaps I didn't make it clear but what you are disputing is the actual Virginia statute, not what some historian told me or wrote about. The book is the official record of the General Assembly published by an act of the assembly. What better reference could there be? If you want a copy of the book there is one in College Park, MD, Arlington, VA, Shepherdstown, WV and many more in the VA area. I'm afraid that you are mistaken in your assertion that Stephensburg was "chartered" any differently than Leesburg. The same act of the assembly formed them both. -- Mufka (user) (talk) (contribs) 00:42, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
No, I don't think I am mistaken, as I talked to the historian at the Newtown History Center. They looked at those documents, among others. The founding and charter of the town is celebrated on September 1 and the charter says September 1. So, historian says it is, charter says it is, then it must be September 1. - NeutralHomer T:C 01:53, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Fellow editors, I have been asked to take an impartial look at the dispute regarding the notability of the founding of Stephensburgh as regards its entry on the day page for September 1.

Looking at the discussion so far it seems that there are these points.

  • Is the date correct.
  • Is the involvement of Thomas Fairfax notable.
  • Is the place in and of itself notable.

The date appears to me to be suffering from the official record not being clear and as a result the 1st has been chosen retrospectively as the official date, but that does not make it the true date of founding. If the founding took place after the granting of a charter by Virginia’s Colonial General Assembly, even if the founding took place on the day the charter was granted and also if the charter was granted on the first day of the assembly the earliest it could have been is the 14th.

The presence of Fairfax or for that matter any Englishman is not a matter of any great note, admittedly he was the only peer resident in colonial America but had been in Virginia since the mid 1730s so perhaps it could be said he was (had the US been a nation at the time) just another American and with a large landholding some 5 million acres it is not surprising that he took an interest in local affairs, as the rich and powerful seem inclined to do.

So to the general notability of the town itself. Is it the oldest, biggest, most powerful, or any other superlative? As far as I can see not; it is the second oldest town in the Shenandoah Valley, and with a population of less than 2000 not large, and not the capital of anywhere. A nice place to live but notable on a global scale over time, no.

Personally I can see no reason that the 1758 September 1 listing is retained. -- Drappel 21:11, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Short of getting a historian to say it, Lords from Britian did not attend nor help in the charter and founding of a town. Only three occasions did this happen, Stephens City is one (Winchester and Leesburg being the other two, from which I have learned). Whether Lord Fairfax was here 20 years or 20 minutes is irrelevant. The fact that he was in Williamsburg for the charter and founding of Stephensburgh (now Stephens City), on September 1, 1758, as the Newtown History Center and the Virginia Historical Society say he was, is notable. - NeutralHomer T:C 02:23, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I could give you evidence that other Lords did the very same thing but at this point I know it wouldn't matter. In light of your argument, I'm willing to agree that I won't revert the item as long as you concede that what is readily available in history books and the record of the General Assembly of Virginia is not evidence enough to change your belief that what you were told by an historian is absolutely and unquestionably the truth about the matter. I'm only disappointed that I took the time to research the topic to learn the true facts of the case only to find that the facts didn't matter. -- Mufka (user) (talk) (contribs) 02:46, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Some icing for this cake. I emailed with a representative of Newtown History Center today. Below is the text of the response:
The traditional date given in most books for the founding of Stephens City is September 1758. The exact date can be found in the records of the House of Burgesses, which is in Williamsburg.
Please note that the reference that I noted above (at 00:04, 16 July 2007) is the same that this representative pointed me to. -- Mufka (user) (talk) (contribs) 23:23, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
You get the exact date from the House of Burgesses in Williamsburg and we will have our answer. - NeutralHomer T:C 23:31, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
You're not understanding me. The House of Burgesses is the General Assembly. The book I quoted is the official record of the House of Burgesses. -- Mufka (user) (talk) (contribs) 23:45, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
OK, you're giving me a migraine. I'll go up to the Newtown History Center and talk with the historian there. She is the one who gave me the September 1 date to begin with and I will have her write it down on paper and get you a copy of that. - NeutralHomer T:C 00:42, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
I shall await your findings. And a written note is not necessary, just a valid and verifiable reference. Remember no original research. We cite books here, not people. -- Mufka (user) (talk) (contribs) 01:54, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
I will have them cite their references, but if it is the Virginia Historical Society, I can't help that. But, I think the Virginia Historical Society would be a good enough reference, since it is state-owned and state-run. But I will let you know what I find out. - NeutralHomer T:C 01:57, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
According to the "Journals of the House of Burgesses of Virginia: 1758-1761", we are both wrong. On Page 35 of that book, Stephensburgh was chartered and founded on October 3rd, 1758 and Lord Fairfax was only present for that charter and founding and the founding of Leesburg. He helped in the charter and founding of only Stephensburgh. Since this has been found, I am moving the entry to October 3. - NeutralHomer T:C 19:24, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

It's trivial, no matter what day you put it on. I've pointed you to the policies, practices, and guidelines regarding entries to these pages, and multiple editors have removed it, to boot. It's gone. --Calton | Talk 20:31, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Calton, it's not "gone" just because you say it is. When something happens in a colonial state and it only happens THREE times in that state and only THREE times, yeah, it's notable. I have many forms of proof that Thomas Lord Fairfax only helped with the charter of Stephensburgh (later Stephens City) and no other town. He helped with the founding of Stephensburgh and what would be modern-day Leesburg, Virginia and the expansion of Winchester, Virginia, but he was only instrumental in the charter and founding of Stephensburgh. No other Lord from England did this and it was not common practice for Lords to do this. So, yeah, it's notable and way beyond trivial. - NeutralHomer T:C 22:04, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Policy Reality Check, Number 237 in a Series: This event is not notable enough for inclusion in Days of the Year pages, since it's not important on a global, national, or even state-wide level. It's not the first of anything, it paved the way for no particular history, it illuminates no larger issue or historical trend, and is of no importance outside of a very small locality. It's objectively non-notable and completely trivial, no matter how you spin it. I've pointed you to numerous precedents, and it's been removed and/or opposed by multiple uninvolved editors: it's your obsession and your obsession alone, however immune you are to actual discussion, and it's going out. Clear? --Calton | Talk 03:07, 19 July 2007 (UTC).

Let's knock these down, shall we?
  • important...state-wide level: Wrong; it is important, because in no other town would a British Lord participate in the charter or founding of a town again....never.
  • It's not the first of anything: Wrong; it is the first (and only) time that a British Lord would help in the founding and charter of a Virginia town and I dare say Colonial US town.
  • it paved the way for no particular history: Wrong, big time; the charter and founding, paved the way for the approaching 300 year history of an American town.
  • is of no importance outside of a very small locality: Wrong again; first, it is over state-wide importance and second, Stephens City is not "very small" by a long shot. Just because 2,500 people to you seems small, live here for a day, it ain't small.
  • I've pointed you to numerous precedents: Wrong; you have cited zero precedents. Unless citing a precedent is deletion.
  • it's been removed and/or opposed by multiple uninvolved editors: Wrong again; just two...you and User:Mufka.
  • it's your obsession: Wrong; unless providing Wikipedia with a extremely rare occasion in Virginia State History is some new obsession.
  • however immune you are to actual discussion: Wrong; I am more than open to actual discussion, you and I, however, have never had an actual discussion without you going on one of your "holier-than-thou, my intelligence knows all" rants of yours.
  • it's going out: Wrong again; it isn't, sorry.
  • Clear?: If us being clear, is that you are wrong on all points, then we actually agree on something.
Now, would you like to continue or is this enough for one night? - NeutralHomer T:C 03:24, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 1982 - Canada adopts a Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms as part of its Constitution

Didn't The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms come into force on April 17, 1982? If anyone knows what happened on September 1, 1982 concerning The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, please leave a note for me on my talk page...thanks. CWPappas 05:47, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Appalchian State defeats Michigan

This is notable because a sub division team beat a college power house. It was the biggest audience App State ever had in college football. I also believe people care for college football the same or more than Luxembourg going digital in television, so I belive that should be placed with it for being an important date on september 1st —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.145.95.117 (talk) 19:12, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

This is not an event of significant notability or importance. -- Mufka (u) (t) (c) 20:23, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
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