War in Gaza

posted by Peter Rothberg on 12/29/2008 @ 3:01pm

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Since Saturday, Israeli air strikes on the Gaza Strip have killed at least 325 people, including civilians and children, according to a wide range of sources. The attacks have left more than 1,400 people wounded, medical facilities wholly unable to respond to the crisis and desperate shortages of fuel, food and medicine.

CARE International has responded swiftly to the growing catastrophe, starting on December 27, the day the attack began, with provisions of medical supplies and pharmaceuticals that were in short supply. CARE, along with its partner the Palestinian Red Crescent Society, intends to continue providing emergency medical supplies and winterization equipment like heaters, blankets, and window coverings to families who have had their homes damaged in the bombing. Contributions to help continue this work can be made through the CARE.org website and should be sent with a note that the funds are for CARE Gaza emergency response.

Gaza's people were already vulnerable and its institutions and infrastructure fragile as a result of more than a year of economic blockade in response to Hamas' aggression against Israel. The blockade has denied the Strip fuel, spare parts, building materials, cash, agricultural inputs, medical supplies, or equipment. In particular, the health system has been hard hit by increased demand and an inability to secure supplies or to repair or replace equipment.

On Saturday, medical teams from the Medecins sans Frontieres evaluated the needs of the main medical structures in Gaza, in particular Kemal Edwan hospital in the north and Shifa Hospital, the area's main referral hospital, and found them completely inadequate to the task at hand.

Since July 2007, MSF has been providing post-operative care and physiotherapy to hundreds of people wounded by fighting in the Gaza Strip. In March 2008 a pediatric clinic was opened in Gaza for children under 12 years of age.

Today, a team of three MSF doctors and nurses is working in Shifa Hospital, helping with the triage of wounded and--depending on the security situation--using the MSF ambulance to refer cases to the MSF clinic. Click here to help support this work and hope that calls from UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon and numerous world leaders for an immediate cease-fire will soon be heeded. No matter your views on Israel and Palestine, it's absolutely insane, in my view, for anyone to think that Israel can successfully bomb its way to peace and security.

Comments (39)

Peter,

You should dig a little deeper into this group CARE...they may not be what they appear to you...

Posted by YourJomamma at 12/29/2008 @ 3:08pm
Tell me what you know.

CARE was suggested by Sara Roy, a scholar currently at Harvard, who is widely considered one of the leading experts on Gaza.

Posted by Peter Rothberg at 12/29/2008 @ 3:11pm
Are the Israelis allowing this form of aid into Gaza? For the last several months, Israel has been strangling Gaza with sanctions which bar this sort of aid. Blankets might lead to comfort.

Posted by syfriendly at 12/29/2008 @ 3:23pm
Thanks for the excellent post, Peter.

Now is a perfect time for us to renew our interest in the Israel-Palestine deadlock. And it's the perfect time to put pressure on our incoming president to bring some substantive change we can believe in.

Here's Josh Frank to add some punch:

As President-Elect Barack Obama vacationed in Hawaii on December 26, stopping off to watch a dolphin show with his family at Sea Life Park, an Israeli air raid besieged the impoverished Gaza Strip, killing at least 285 people and injuring over 800 more.

It was the single deadliest attack on Gaza in over 20 years and Obama's initial reaction on what could be his first real test as president was "no comment". Meanwhile, Israel has readied itself for a land invasion, amassing tanks along the border and calling up 6,500 reserve troops.

On Sunday's Face the Nation, Obama's Senior Adviser David Axelrod explained to guest cost Chip Reid how an Obama administration would handle the situation, even if it turns for the worst.

"Well, certainly, the president-elect recognizes the special relationship between United States and Israel. It's an important bond, an important relationship. He's going to honor it ... "

Posted by b_kool_66 at 12/29/2008 @ 3:26pm
....While bombs fall on a suffocating Palestinian population and Israeli forces prepare for a ground invasion, Obama is monitoring the situation from afar after a talk with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and other Bush administration officials. This isn't leadership; it's a continuation of a policy that has left Palestinians with little recourse, let alone hope for lasting peace.

"The president-elect was in Sderot last July, in southern Israel, a town that's taken the brunt of the Hamas attacks," David Axelrod told Chip Reid on Face the Nation. "And he said then that, when bombs are raining down on your citizens, there is an urge to respond and act and try and put an end to that. So, you know, that's what he said then, and I think that's what he believes."

If Axelrod is correct, and Barack Obama does indeed support the bloodshed inflicted upon innocent Palestinians by the Israeli military, there should be no celebrating during Inauguration Day 2009, only mass protest of a Middle East foreign policy that must change in order to begin a legitimate peace process in the region.

End quote.

Whole article: tinyurl.com/8hrjdc

Posted by b_kool_66 at 12/29/2008 @ 3:26pm
On the topic of this tragic event, I want to state that I believe firmly that Israel's actions are not in any stretch of the imagination "justifiable". They've responded to a death toll of 0 with a death toll in excess of 300 and growing steadily. They've responded to rocket attacks which produced no economic impact on Israel with a devastating air bombardment that will reduce the already miserably suffering population of Gaza to a level of unimaginable despair. This was not only brutal, savage, and cruel beyond belief - Israel has lost any moral standing - they've killed more Palestinians in one day than probably the death toll of all Hamas suicide bombings in Israel added - but strategically the stupidest imaginable step to take. Hamas has been given no option now but to fight, and nothing to lose. Gazans live in an overt prison colony, economically strangled, unable to flee, and now facing a massive air bombardment as well. Hamas is the only hope these people have, and Hamas itself only maintains its relevance if it does whatever it can to attack Israel. Bring on the suicide bombers, and blame every death and injury on an Israeli regime that went from a year without a single dead Israeli from the hands of Hamas to a possible Third Intifada. Incompetence and brutality together, what a combination.

Posted by syfriendly at 12/29/2008 @ 3:31pm
The situation is summarized very well by this 54 year old Israeli woman interviewed by Al Jazeera

""I very much support the Israeli operation in Gaza. I feel extremely sad that there are, and will be, civilian deaths, but I believe no other country in the world would have waited so long and put up with constant shelling on their sovereign territory.

Israel left Gaza in 2005, literally dragging out our citizens, against much public uproar.

Over 6,000 missiles/rockets/mortars have been sent to Israel from Gaza since our pull-out - not to disputed areas, not to the "occupied territories" - but to places that have been part of Israel since 1948.

Gazans voted for Hamas knowing that they refuse to accept the existence of Israel. What else would anyone expect a nation to do? How can you negotiate with people who do not accept your existence?

Why haven't the Gazans kept Hamas from taking over? Why haven't they used their intelligence and skills to develop a society that doesn't breed hate and murder? Why do families think that it's an honour to have a child die as a suicide bomber rather than grow up and contribute to their society? Where are the moderates who disagree with Hamas, that want their families to grow up with peace and mutual respect?

Where I live, our Arab citizens shop with us in our community's malls, work in our stores with us - I see no apartheid. They wait in the same physician's office with us. There is no reason that we cannot mutually respect each other and live in peace.

Although this plan was originally developed six months ago, the Israeli government deliberately waited until the end of the "ceasefire" to see if the south would be attacked again. And it was - the day it ended. Very heavily. And to add to mix Hamas goaded Israel"

Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/29/2008 @ 3:52pm
I think PE Obama needs to change the policy we have regarding Israel, we are too tied up with them and have been for years. You can't have a fair fight here when only side has all the military might for use at any time, plus backing from the US. Palestinian blood is not a different colour to Israeli blood and pain and suffering is not only for Israel to endure. This conflict will go on and on as long as we in the US keep kissing the backsides of Israel....when are we going to get a backbone and put them straight?

Posted by Caj at 12/29/2008 @ 3:53pm
And I see almost nothing of the criticism from President Abbas or even the charge by the Egyptians against Hamas interviewed also by Al Jazeera.

"Egypt's foreign minister has also blamed Hamas for preventing hundreds of wounded Palestinians from entering Egypt via the Rafah crossing for treatment - the only crossing that does not border Israel.

Ahmed Aboul Gheit said the wounded were "barred from crossing" and he blamed "those in control of Gaza" for putting the lives of the injured at risk."

As I stated on another thread, Hamas is intentionally using the people in Gaza as their media tool, making them suffer and die, to stir up the Arab street and sympathetic leftists here and in Europe.

Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/29/2008 @ 3:56pm
I think PE Obama needs to change the policy we have regarding Israel, we are too tied up with them and have been for years. You can't have a fair fight here when only side has all the military might for use at any time, plus backing from the US. Palestinian blood is not a different colour to Israeli blood and pain and suffering is not only for Israel to endure. This conflict will go on and on as long as we in the US keep kissing the backsides of Israel....when are we going to get a backbone and put them straight?

Posted by Caj at 12/29/2008 @ 3:53pm

Sure....why don't we insist that Israel just lay down and die and get out of the Arabs way. Let's finish what Hitler started, right Herr Caj?

Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/29/2008 @ 3:58pm
When the Jordanian parliament burned the Israeli flag in protest, it merely sealed the deal. Despite western attempts to appease the Arab nations, their main goal has always been the destruction of Israel. This country went to war after one attack - and yet we expect Israel to sit quietly and peacefully while they are attacked on a daily basis? The lack of outcry in this country when Hebrew University was bombed was appalling. When the family restaurants and youth clubs in Tel Aviv and Safed and Jerusalem were bombed, there was no world outcry. But cry me a river for Hamas and Hezbollah. Everyone in this country runs around freaking out over Al Qaeda, but in Israel they live with terrorists on a daily basis. How dare anyone living in the comfort and safety of this country criticize Israel's decision to strike back at the terrorists who rain death and destruction on them every day.

Posted by Greytdog at 12/29/2008 @ 4:25pm
Peter,

Sorry....

I mis read CARE for CAIR...former is fine, it is the later that is dubious...

My bad.

Posted by YourJomamma at 12/29/2008 @ 4:26pm
Sure....why don't we insist that Israel just lay down and die and get out of the Arabs way. Let's finish what Hitler started, right Herr Caj?

Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/29/2008 @ 3:58pm

What a load of nonsense, I see we are back onto the holocaust again are we, as soon as anyone defends Palestine we have to hear about Hitler yet again. Haven't they played that old story over and over again,yes, it was awful and shouldn't have happened but you can't relive that as an excuse every time. Israel are at fault here by occupying Palestinian land whether you like it or not....they do not have a God given right to that land, only in their minds.

Posted by Caj at 12/29/2008 @ 4:27pm
What a load of nonsense, I see we are back onto the holocaust again are we, as soon as anyone defends Palestine we have to hear about Hitler yet again. Haven't they played that old story over and over again,yes, it was awful and shouldn't have happened but you can't relive that as an excuse every time. Israel are at fault here by occupying Palestinian land whether you like it or not....they do not have a God given right to that land, only in their minds.

Posted by Caj at 12/29/2008 @ 4:27pm

Of course they do. It is theirs for over 3000 years to begin with.

but more importantly from a standpoint of international law, it was designated to be returned to them as signed by the League of Nations in 1922 and further documented in the British Mandate of 1946 which re-affirmed the League of Nations vote.

The Arabs were given 3 times the amount of land in the British land of Palestine which became first Tran-Jordan and then Jordan. there are far more of these Arabs from the British Mandate. That British control was a result of the defeat of the German-Turkish Axis during WWI.

"During World War I (1914-1918), Turkey supported Germany. When Germany was defeated, so were the Turks. In 1916 control of the southern portion of their Ottoman Empire was "mandated" to France and Britain under the Sykes-Picot Agreement, which divided the Arab region into zones of influence. Lebanon and Syria were assigned (mandated) to France... and "Palestine" (today's Jordan, Israel and "West Bank") was mandated to Great Britain. Because no other peoples had ever established a national in homeland "Palestine" since the Jews had done it 2,000 years before, the British "looked favorably" upon the creation of a Jewish National Homeland throughout ALL of Palestine.

Continue

Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/29/2008 @ 4:38pm
Palestine history continued

" In 1923, the British divided the "Palestine" portion of the Ottoman Empire into two administrative districts. Jews would be permitted only west of the Jordan river. In effect, the British had "chopped off" 75% of the originally proposed Jewish Palestinian homeland to form an Arab Palestinian nation called Trans-Jordan (meaning "across the Jordan River").

This territory east of the Jordan River was given to Emir Abdullah (from Hejaz, now Saudi Arabia) who was not even an Arab-"Palestinian!" This portion of Palestine was renamed Trans-Jordan. Trans-Jordan and would again be renamed "Jordan" in 1946. In other words, the eastern 3/4 of Palestine would be renamed TWICE, in effect, erasing all connection to the name "Palestine!" However, the bottom line is that the Palestinian Arabs had THEIR "Arab Palestinian" homeland. The remaining 25% of Palestine (now WEST of the Jordan River) was to be the Jewish Palestinian homeland. However, sharing was not part of the Arab psychological makeup then nor now.

http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html

Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/29/2008 @ 4:40pm
How dare anyone living in the comfort and safety of this country criticize Israel's decision to strike back at the terrorists who rain death and destruction on them every day.

Posted by Greytdog at 12/29/2008 @ 4:25pm

You explain to me how come Israel are not deemed as terrorists as they are doing unspeakable acts and yet Hamas is automatically called a terrorist?? Is it because we don't hold with Hamas being the chosen leaders of Palestine, that is not a good enough reason. Israel can do what they do and it's called "defending their people"....but Palestine does any retaliation and it's called an act of terrorism!!! That is some messed up logic if you ask me....both sides are killing each other but it's alright if you are killing Palestinians because they don't come under the umbrella of regular people they are expendable. Israel is a rogue nation and it needs to be reined in, too much playing ball with them over the years and that needs to stop.

Posted by Caj at 12/29/2008 @ 4:44pm
Look at the American supporters of Israel, babbling and shrieking as a people they've never met engage in a total brutality. Truly, there is no hope -

Posted by syfriendly at 12/29/2008 @ 4:53pm
For the actual human beings reading these posts - that discounts any mindless supporters of Israel's "action" - here is the current body count:

Dead: 360+ Wounded: 1600+

There are total now of about 2000 casualties. If you pause to consider the population of Gaza - which is about 1.5 million - versus the population of the USA, which is about 300 million, a factor of 200 greater, one can conceive of the death toll as being equivalent to a US terror attack in which killed 72,000 people and injured a total of 400,000. This would be worse than 20 9/11 attacks in 2 days, in terms of the impact needed on the US to produce the same basic relative impact.

Think about that: what Gaza is enduring is worse than 20 9/11 attacks.

As for Israel, the people need to consider that, if they are as they claim, a beacon of "democracy", then the everyday citizen of Israel can consider himself liable for what his government has done. And so when, inevitably, Hamas counterattacks - and counterattack they will, doing far less damage than the Israelis but with every weapon at their disposal - the citizen of Israel needs to understand that he is responsible for what has been done in Gaza. By the same "reasoning" by which Israel inflicts collective punishment upon the people of Gaza, let the Israeli understand that the collective punishment Gaza will inflict on him is justified.

Thus the cycle of violence continues -

Posted by syfriendly at 12/29/2008 @ 5:06pm
Peter, how do you go about sending a donation to CARE "with a note that the funds are for CARE Gaza emergency response"? I found no way to attach a message, nor any place for comments or specification, from the link you sent. The only option I found (from the Donate Now link) was to simply donate to CARE itself, without any knowledge of where the money goes. Perhaps you could give directions?

Posted by mattb206 at 12/29/2008 @ 5:29pm
Contrary to reports, Israel is sending in supplies of their own and from Jordan

"Israel opened the Kerem Shalom Crossing into the Gaza Strip on Monday to facilitate the transfer of supplies to the Palestinians as defense officials warned that Hamas was possibly digging tunnels under the crossings, to be used to destroy them.

On Monday the Defense Ministry permitted the transfer of 57 trucks carrying supplies - such as basic foods and medicine - into Gaza. Five ambulances were also allowed in. The Karni Crossing was supposed to open but was closed due to security threats.

Bezalel Treiber, head of the Defense Ministry Crossing Directorate, told The Jerusalem Post that there was intelligence that Hamas was planning to target the crossings. He said that the Palestinians were desperate to receive the supplies and that due to the risk of "terror tunnels," Israel was running the crossings under a "new operational model." He would not elaborate on what that was.

"We have many terror warnings that they want to hit the crossings," Treiber said. "For that reason, we operate under heavy security."

Meanwhile Monday, the IDF Gaza Coordination and Liaison Administration (CLA) coordinated the transfer of a truck carrying 1,000 units of blood donated by Jordan.

http://tinyurl.com/9uapqs

And as I noted in my 3:56pm post, Egypt complained that Hamas was preventing Gaza citizens from crossing into Egypt.

Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/29/2008 @ 5:35pm
Of course they do. It is theirs for over 3000 years to begin with.

Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/29/2008 @ 4:38pm

And you know this how exactly...is it because they sit at the right hand of God or what????? How can you possibly know that land has been theirs for over 3,000 years..who told you that or is it from a book or could it be a bible I wonder!!!! Oh, yes I forgot they were the chosen ones were they not....what a load of tosh.

Posted by Caj at 12/29/2008 @ 6:36pm
Is LVL reminding anyone else of Rese?

Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/29/2008 @ 6:41pm
How can you possibly know that land has been theirs for over 3,000 years..who told you that or is it from a book or could it be a bible I wonder!!!!

Posted by Caj at 12/29/2008 @ 6:36pm

Who was it that set up a kingom there? Who built Jerusalem from nothing?

And as I've stated and provided documentation, the world recognized this fact in 1920 and ratified in 1922

"The British Mandate For Palestine San Remo Conference, April 24, 1920

Confirmed by the Council of the League of Nations on July 24, 1922 Came into operation in September 1923.

"The Council of the League of Nations:

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have agreed, for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, to entrust to a Mandatory selected by the said Powers the administration of the territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, within such boundaries as may be fixed by them; and

Whereas the Principal Allied powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country; and

Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connexion of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country;

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/britman.htm

Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/29/2008 @ 6:56pm
Is LVL reminding anyone else of Rese?

Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/29/2008 @ 6:41pm

It seems your argument is not with me, but with history. I'm not posting way out future predictions or conspiracy theories like Rese. I'm stating with documentation that people like yourself accept the Arab spin without looking at the actual history.

You are certainly free to become strident or accusing based solely upon lies and your own ill-informed opinion, but you and the others have not provided one document disproving the historical documents I have provided.

As it seems was appropo when uttered by Jack Nicholson, "you can't handle the truth".

Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/29/2008 @ 7:00pm
And let's look at the response of key regional Arab leadership in 1920 to the San Remo pact.

"In December 1918 Weizmann met the Emir Faisal, the leader of the Arab forces in the war and the son of Hussein, the Sherif of Mecca, at Ma'an in southern Transjordan. Weizmann and Faisal reached an agreement. The document written in January 1919 contained the following preamble:

"mindful of the racial kinship and ancient bonds existing between the Arabs and the Jewish people, and realising that the surest means of working out the consummation of their national aspirations, is through the closest possible collaboration in the development of the Arab State and Palestine, and being desirous further of confirming the good understanding which exists between them, have agreed upon the following articles:"

The agreement contemplated the drawing of new national boundaries between Palestine and "the Arab State" which would be negotiated as part of the post-war settlement. At the Paris Peace Conference in 1919 Faisal conveyed the spirit of the agreement in a letter which he sent to United States Justice Frankfurter, leader of the American Zionist delegation: "The Jewish movement is national and not imperialist, and there is room in Syria for us both...We shall welcome the Jews back home."

http://www.ijs.org.au/The-Balfour-Declaration/default.aspx

Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/29/2008 @ 7:12pm
In the aftermath of the 1948 war and the armistice of 1949

"The Jordanians took over East Jerusalem and a large portion of land on the west bank of the Jordan River, thereby narrowing Israel, seen here in blue, to approximately nine miles at its narrowest point. Egyptian troops overran the Gaza strip in the west as well as the southern outskirts of Jerusalem. Despite tremendous losses, the new Jewish state survived.

In 1949 Israel signed armistice agreements with Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Transjordan,(2) which in April 1949 changed its name to Jordan.(3) One of the major consequences of this was Jordan's annexation of Judea and Samaria. This annexation was not recognized by the international community, with the exception of Britain and Pakistan.(4) This territory became a launching ground for constant terrorist attacks against Israel's civilian population. (5)"

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/maps/arm.html

Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/29/2008 @ 7:32pm
It seems your argument is not with me, but with history. I'm not posting way out future predictions or conspiracy theories like Rese. I'm stating with documentation that people like yourself accept the Arab spin without looking at the actual history. You are certainly free to become strident or accusing based solely upon lies and your own ill-informed opinion, but you and the others have not provided one document disproving the historical documents I have provided. As it seems was appropo when uttered by Jack Nicholson, "you can't handle the truth". Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/29/2008 @ 7:00pm

Hahahahah. LVL you are funny.

I don't care who started it. I haven't bought anyone's spin. You have obviously bought into the "Israel is incapable of doing wrong" spin but that is besides the point. I am interested in a solution, not in who did what to who.

Mutual concessions and a meaningful effort on the part of both parties part is the solution. Your pipe dream that all the Arabs will leave is just that a pipe dream. Gaza is their home. They aren't going to give it up. Israel isn't going anywhere either. Their country has been there for 70 years now and it has become their home.

So why not start offering realistic solutions that don't involve one side giving up everything and the other side making no concessions? Basically you are saying that Arabs must give up their homes and their lands. Would you if you were in their shoes?

"As it seems was appropo when uttered by Jack Nicholson, "you can't handle the truth"."

This is particularly funny to me. You are reading one side of the issue and declaring it the truth. Historical documents are useful only if you are willing to pa equal attention to the opposite side of the coin.

(continued)

Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/29/2008 @ 7:36pm
However, sharing was not part of the Arab psychological makeup then nor now.

Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/29/2008 @ 4:40pm

nor ours.

just ask the folks down at the reservation.

Posted by frosty zoom at 12/29/2008 @ 7:37pm
larry,

is this what your god calls for:

"An Israeli bomb struck the refugee camp's Imad Aqil mosque around midnight, destroying the building and collapsing several shops and a pharmacy nearby. The force of the blast was so massive it also brought down the Baloushas' house, which yesterday lay in ruins. The seven eldest girls were asleep together on mattresses in one bedroom and they bore the brunt of the explosion. Five were killed where they lay: Tahrir, 17, Ikram 15, Samer, 13, Dina, eight and Jawahar, four."?

Posted by frosty zoom at 12/29/2008 @ 7:40pm
"History is written by the lions"

You've taken to one side of the coin because your religion says that Israel lays claim to the land because that is the will of God. So your claim that they are owed the land is just as superfluous as the claim that the Arab's do.

The reason I said you remind me of Rese is not because of WHAT your posting it's the fact that you are posting pages and pages and pages without realizing that it makes us less likely to read it than if you posted a link instead. Forum etiquette generally says to post a link instead of thirty pages of copy and paste.

You can claim your version of the truth all you want. Obviously you haven't learned enough from your experience on the earth to realize that when you are dealing with history there are always only VERSIONS of the truth. What they teach Russian children about the Cold War is different than what they teach American children about the Cold War.

Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/29/2008 @ 7:42pm
Posted by frosty zoom at 12/29/2008 @ 7:40pm

Their lives don't matter, they are Arab. They are psychological deficient.

"However, sharing was not part of the Arab psychological makeup then nor now." Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/29/2008 @ 4:40pm

See LVL says it so, so it must be so.

Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/29/2008 @ 7:44pm
What I also find funny LVL is that at the same time as you are claiming that everyone else has bought into a false history, you are claiming that the history you are posting is the truth. What makes you know that? What makes your history any MORE true than the history you are claiming is a lie?

Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/29/2008 @ 7:46pm
Posted by frosty zoom at 12/29/2008 @ 7:40pm

No Frosty, it's tragic, but the fault doesn't lie with the Israelis, but with Hamas and their firing of Rockets from these locations.

None of you who complain, have cited anything that disputes that Hamas and Islam in general are committed to the death of Jews and the destruction of Israel as a nation.

Every compromise, every withdrawal by Israel has been met with further violence by Hamas and other jihadists.

When Israel forced the settlers to leave Gaza in 2005, it didn't produce any peace in the area. Instead Hamas has used it continually as a staging ground for attacks on Jews.

If Israel occupied all of the land west of the Jordan as the historic agreements promised them, and disbanded their military, they would still be attacked by the Arabs. They would only live on less than 1% of the ME land, but that is still too much for the Arabs. Only Jordan and Egypt have a peace treaty with Israel; only these two recognize their right to exist. And they did so only after suffering devastating losses including Muslim pride after their military losses to Israel.

"Statement by Zuheir Mohsein, Member of the Supreme Council of the PLO: "There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity, because it is in the interest of the Arabs to encourage a separate Palestinian identity in contrast to Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity is there only for tactical reasons. The establishment of a Palestinian state is a new expedient to continue the fight against Zionism and for Arab unity

Trouw (Dutch newspaper) March 31, 1977"

Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/29/2008 @ 7:51pm
What I also find funny LVL is that at the same time as you are claiming that everyone else has bought into a false history, you are claiming that the history you are posting is the truth. What makes you know that? What makes your history any MORE true than the history you are claiming is a lie?

Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/29/2008 @ 7:46pm

Certainly if the historical evidence I have provided is false, you should be able to provide evidence disputing it.

Are you saying that the San Remo Conference and the League of nations agreement didn't really happen?

Are you denying the British Mandate of 1946 which re-affirmed the San Remo Conference?

Are you saying that the Arab nations did not invade Israel in a war that concluded with an Armistice in 1949?

Are you disputing the terms of the Armistice?

How about the quotes from Arabs that I provided? Anything you have to dispute them?

I'd certainly be interested in seeing if you can.

Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/29/2008 @ 8:00pm
I'd certainly be interested in seeing if you can. Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/29/2008 @ 8:00pm

I'm disputing the claim of the British to be able to rewrite borders. Again I point you to Africa if you want proof of where that gets you. I learn from from history. History has proven that when an outside force comes in and changes the lay of the land that people are going to end up angry and fighting. Look at history if you want proof. Why then should you have expected this situation to end any different? Again. I don't care about the history, I care about a pragmatic solution.

Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/29/2008 @ 8:42pm
Oh and by pragmatic I don't mean asking 1.5 million people to leave their homes. Nor do I mean asking other countries to take in a displaced 1.5 million people. Even asking 500,000 people to leave their homes is a ridiculous thought. On top of that how are they supposed to travel there? Most of them barely have enough money to keep themselves alive, let alone travel to another country. Is Israel going to pay to relocate 1.5 million people? The US? I'd love to see the logistics on that one.

Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/29/2008 @ 8:44pm
Hey Lvliberty1, you are an institution of history re-fabrication.

The Israelis signed a truce with Hamas for six months, during which the Israelis had 135 incursions into Gaza murdering 30 Palestinians. It is also during that truce that Gaza was placed under the whim and mercy of the Israeli racist government. Food to Gazans was restricted; fuel supply for Gaza's single electric power plant was intermittent at best. Gaza's Airspace, territorial water and ports were under Israeli control. Furthermore, the Israelis have kept 25% of land in Gaza in a so-called security zone; barring Palestinians from entering that zone. Gaza was dying slowly in the dark. When Palestinians fired some of their homemade primitive rockets; the Israelis began their murderous campaign. In essence, the Palestinians were presented two bad choices by Israel; to die from starvation or be blown to pieces by the American made F-16 and Apache helicopters.

So enough of your B.S fairytale about Israel giving back all Gaza back to the Palestinians?

Posted by CripThink at 12/29/2008 @ 8:49pm
Israel is another great example of failed colonialism -- just like other places that were divvied up without respect to facts on the ground. We're stuck with it now, like a lot of places, but the US has to pull out of the "special relationship" quagmire and pursue some other policies. Continuing the policies we've had in effect for how many decades has not resulted in any progress. How many years do we pursue failed policies before we admit they're a failure? The relationship with Israel in its current form seems to have won us more enemies than friends, which I can't say is in our nation's best interest.

Posted by Bozic at 12/29/2008 @ 9:17pm
Well Bozic, your are correct about Israel, however, I won't pin any hope on American shift of policy when it comes to the Middle East.

The Whit House and our Congress are mere occupied Israeli territories. Obama has surrendered to AIPAC since the early campaign days; The Israeli lobby has twisted his arm so hard that I doubt he would ever think of playing Middle East Peace out of fear of the Israeli lobby. He has given the task to the new-born Zionist Hillary Clinton. Clinton has made her commitment to Israel unquestionable from day one. She appointed two assistant secretaries, James Steinberg and Jacob Lew and plans to appoint three special envoys: Dennis Ross, Martin Indyk and Richard Holbrooke; all are Jews and ardent Zionists. Thus, as unfortunate it seems, we shall remain a milking cow for Israel. They bilk us of near 6 Billion Dollars annually, while using their massive media and financial muscles here in America, to stifle and intimidate any one who dares to criticize Israel's racist policies.

Posted by CripThink at 12/29/2008 @ 9:35pm