Template talk:English Monarchs

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Until 1603 the English and Scottish Crowns were separate, although links between the two were always close - members of the two Royal families intermarried on many occasions. Following the Accession of King James VI of Scotland (I of England) to the English Throne, a single monarch reigned in the United Kingdom. The last four hundred years have seen many changes in the nature of the Monarchy in the United Kingdom. From the end of the 17th century, monarchs lost executive power and they increasingly became subject to Parliament, resulting in today's constitutional Monarchy.

and

The Stuarts were the first kings of the United Kingdom. King James I of England who began the period was also King James VI of Scotland, thus combining the two thrones for the first time.

See British monarchs' family tree. 68.110.8.21 11:31, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, James VI & I did unite the crowns, but this template is not concerned with Scottish monarchs – it's English monarchs! If you are in fact asserting that the Stuarts were all British monarchs, then they would all belong on British monarchs! That would, however, be wrong, as they were all King of England, King of Scots and King of Ireland separately until 1707. For instance, when the Hanoverians were Kings of GB and of Hanover, those two were not the same crown. ^† DBD 13:21, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Contents 1 Strange 2 Nicknames 3 Bretwaldas 4 Flags 5 Kings of the Britons? 6 Are Bretwaldas really Monarchs

[edit] Strange

"Edred Weakfeet"? "Edgar the Outlaw"? And I can't say that "Stephen the Irresolute" rang many bells either, nor "Henry VIII Coppernose". I understand that there are some groups that consider Charles I a martyr, but that's a judgement Wikipedia can neither endorse nor reject. "Charles I the Martyr" is therefore inappropriate unless we get the chance to decide between that and the equally unbiased "Charles Stuart, Man of Blood". Charles II is indeed referred to as "the Merry Monarch", but he is not commonly called "Charles II the Merry Monarch". All very strange, Angus McLellan (Talk) 01:20, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm trying to see Edgar the Outlaw. Shouldn't it be Edgar the Aetheling? And I don't think I've ever seen him included in a list of monarchs....since he was never crowned. Shouldn't we use the name of the article as the base? I've never heard Stephen the Irresolute... and I spent more hours than I care to think about listening to a fellow student drone on about his thesis on Stephen, blech! At the very least, Stephen's article doesn't list that as a nickname, which makes its listing on the template just a bit odd. And I guess I need to add Stephen's article to my list of to dos someday, gah, that thing needs work. Ealdgyth | Talk 04:35, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm puzzled as to the appearance of Offa of Mercia on the list. If it's some sort of "bretwaldaship" thing - Offa wasn't one - where are Ælle of Sussex, Æthelberht of Kent, Rædwald of East Anglia, Edwin of Deira, Oswald of Northumbria and Oswiu of Northumbria? If it's de facto, where's Æthelbald of Mercia? Strange indeed to have Offa and Beorhtric of Wessex, no? Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:31, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Tharky added them in response to the situation at Template: Scottish Monarchs; however he's currently blocked from editing (and possibly blocked from posting at discussion pages, though I'm not certain). I'll let him, explain things here. GoodDay (talk) 22:53, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to remove all the kings listed as kings of Wessex, and all the preconquest kings before Alfred. I don't think any of them are ever considered kings of England. Only the bretwaldas could be considered, and there are only two in that list, Ceawlin of Wessex and Egbert of Wessex. Ceawlin was certainly never king of England, and Egbert gained tribute from Northumbria once that we know of and is not called King of England as far as I know.

Aside from anything else, there's are separate Kings of Mercia and Kings of Wessex templates, so we don't need the Mercian and Wessex kings to be on this. Mike Christie (talk) 13:37, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Checking TharkunColl's talk page, I see he's blocked till 16 January, so I will go ahead and edit the template now. We can discuss it when he gets back, if he still wants to. Mike Christie (talk) 15:11, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Done. My post-Alfred history is not strong, but I am not at all sure everyone on the list now deserves to be there. I'll leave that to others who know more, though. Mike Christie (talk) 15:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I have removed some further nicknames that were less controversial but still didn't belong in the template.150.101.154.162 (talk) 13:22, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nicknames

Are any of the Nicknames really relevant to the list? (By nickname i mean richard I the Lionheart) Why cant we just have Richard I? Views on the matter would be greatly appreciated. (Electrobe (talk) 18:04, 3 March 2008 (UTC))

My own view, for what it's worth: I find the epithets useful for monarchs pre-Norman conquest, as they are not commonly known by ordinals (referring to Wessex Edwards by numbers leads to problems with the enumerations of Edward I-VIII), but I see no reason to include them for post-conquest monarchs as they can be clearly distinguished by ordinal designation. They seem to denote opinions on the monarchs in question, and are hardly ever seen on monarchic lists. The only justified one (which isn't given here) would be 'John Lackland', as he genuinely had no ordinal moniker. BartBassist (talk) 23:25, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bretwaldas

I won't remove them, but I see at some point someone readded the bretwaldas (plus a couple more). I don't think they really fit, particularly the early ones -- Aelle, and probably Ceawlin, never had much more than fairly local overlordships, and certainly didn't rule all of what is now England. To call even the later ones monarchs seems to stretch the meaning of the term somewhat too; the other Anglo-Saxon kingdoms existed, with their own kings, and there are sometimes specific exclusions of authority, such as Aethelberht not being subject to Edwin. I think starting with Alfred is as early as this needs to go. Mike Christie (talk) 12:17, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Nevertheless they were listed and recognised by Bede and the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle - the latter, in particular, a quasi-official document of the English state. Others, such as Ethelbald and Offa, bore titles such as King of Britain and King of the English. TharkunColl (talk) 12:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

For comparison I would also direct people to Template:Pictish and Scottish Monarchs, which conflates lists of two separate kingdoms into one template and starts with Drest of the Hundred Battles, who may not even have existed, and certainly did not reign 100 years. TharkunColl (talk) 15:33, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't conflate two kingdoms. It was the same kingdom in this case, the fact they are referred to differently in popular sources today is just an accident of later trends. Drest is the first king to have a synchronisation, that's the only reason to start with him. You could add another few dozens kings. Or you could subtract a bunch. The first king mentioned in a contemporary source is Galam Cennelath, the first who clearly ruled the territory later known as "Scotland" is Bridei son of Beli, etc. I don't think having the Bretwalda here is such a big deal. They are the precedent for the Kingdom of England/Britain formed in later centuries, though you doubt if some of those early guys actually had that status (Kentish transmission of info to Bede ... hint hint). Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

As with the Picts, some info has been transmitted through a number of sources, especially the early rulers. But this is how the English of Alfred's day perceived their own history. TharkunColl (talk) 16:25, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Flags

The Cross of St. George was not used pre-1066, and the Wyvern of Wessex was not used before English unification under the House of Wessex. ðarkuncoll 18:11, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kings of the Britons?

King of the Britons doesn't include any of the people listed on this template, so why are they so marked here? And why is any Mercian king listed as a Bretwalda? Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:05, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

King of the Britons apparently only lists those Kings of the Britons who were ethnically British/Welsh, and is little more than OR in my opinion. Those English rulers marked here as overlords of Britain are those who had secured the submission of the Scots and others, such as Athelstan, or who used the title. The first section used to say "Overlords or Bretwaldas of the English", but someone has evidently removed the word "Overlords". It would certainly be incorrect and misleading not to list the Mercian overlords, however, since they were probably more powerful than any others, and, it is believed, were not included in the "official" Bretwalda list out of anti-Mercian bias. ðarkuncoll 23:24, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

No Anglo-Saxon kings claimed to be king of the Britons, nor were they called that by chroniclers. If you want to claim that C10th charter and numismatic evidence is meaningful, you'll be wanting a source for that. Who knows, maybe there are some. But not for Æthelbald I fear. And Bretwaldas are those people listed by the ASC, and no Mercians are on the list. Yes, the source is biased, but that's what it says. Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:10, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

A number of Anglo-Saxon kings claimed to be Kings of Britain (as indicated here) - but not of the Britons. The article King of the Britons has got nothing to do with this one really. As for the Mercian overlords, I suggest, then, that we simply replace the word "Bretwalda" with "Overlord", since this will give a more accurate representation of the facts (with possibly someting like "or Bretwaldas" in brackets). When Bede listed them he didn't use the word Bretwalda either, though his list was later copied by the ASC which did use it. ðarkuncoll 01:05, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

A great many of the later kings claimed to be kings of France, and Jamie the Saxt was king of Great Britain, according to him, but those are [not! Angus McLellan (Talk) 01:27, 31 October 2008 (UTC)] included, and for good reason. Are there any historians saying these were "overlords"? If not, don't add the stuff. Angus McLellan (Talk) 01:09, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Athelstan for a start off secured the submission of the Scots and many other kingdoms in Britain. As for James I, I have often argued that the list of British monarchs should begin with him, rather than Anne. ðarkuncoll 01:18, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

That's something best dealt with in the Athelstan article I think. This is a template, it doesn't do nuances. Angus McLellan (Talk) 01:27, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

But it does list those who were also monarchs of Ireland, and Scotland. Which information is right to include? ðarkuncoll 01:34, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

There's not much room for debate on also-of-Scotland or also-of-Ireland, is there? That seems to me to be indisputably right for inclusion. But someone may be along any minute to disagree. Angus McLellan (Talk) 01:53, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) The article on Offa of Mercia, for example, says that although there is some evidence Offa was called King of the English, the evidence and conclusion are disputed, and that a more general consensus among modern historians would be that Offa thought of himself as King of the Mercians. (I seem to recall there was some criticism of this section from the Deacon, though I don't recall the details.) I'd say "bretwalda" is definitely wrong for the Mercians, since regardless of their actual authority there's no evidence anyone called them that; and I think some evidence is needed for the "overlord" title beyond the bretwaldas. I'm not really sure it makes sense to have the bretwaldas in this template; it's a bit misleading to a reader who might infer that Aelle was a "Monarch of the English" in something of the same way that Alfred was. Perhaps a separate template would work better for them. Mike Christie (talk) 06:09, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Are Bretwaldas really Monarchs

Technically the Bretwaldas aren't monarchs of England but of smaller predessecor states. Personnally I think that they should have there own template seperate. The Quill (talk) 17:53, 5 December 2008 (UTC)