Talk:Neoliberalism

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Write a paragraph or two on the Marginal Revolution lineage of neoliberalism and the development of the Austrian School (The Marginal Revolution & Carl Menger -->von Mises-->von Hayek). Quickly discuss the role of the London School of Economics in gestating neoliberalism. The University of Chicago gave right-wing thinkers academic jobs while they were funded by private capitalist organizations. Look up the history of how von Hayek and others were recruited to the University of Chicago and funded handsomely while Keynesianism was still ascendant (around 1940-1980). Include a paragraph about this, clarifying which part of U.S. capital was funding and recruiting these particular gentlemen to the University of Chicago School and for what purpose--including how this served as a pillar of the the U.S. conservative movement after the oil crisis, why Chicago, what happened to bring the neoliberals out of the periphery of economic orthodoxy and into setting economic orthodoxy worldwide. That will give you a strong historical footing and clarity for this article. I'm forgetting where this discussion is at the moment, but you should be able to find this information in pertinent Political Sociology studies. Related to above, clarify the relationship between neoliberalism and neoconservatism in the U.S. Use the German "neoliberalism" page for the info to insert a sentence or two on the German group that called itself "Neoliberalismus" (or whatever). This is to establish the historical basis for the term itself. Show that historians of neoliberalism point to the political nature of the neoliberal economic orthodoxy. Describe the differences in (and political-economic conditions of) early political neoliberalism (Thatcher, Reagan, Mitterand, Kohl) and the second-generation neoliberalism (Clinton, Blair, Schroeder, the post-apartheid South Africans) as well as the subsequent hardline regress (Bush, Merkel, Sarkozy). I think you will need someone with something of a Marxist/Gramscian perspective to do this. Clarify the role of Public-Private Partnerships in post-1980 public spending. Neoliberal policies generally encompass resource transfers as investment programmes where the State is smaller but public expenditure is simply reallocated to private contractors.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Contents 1 Introduction 2 Content Forking 3 Australia section 4 Organize Discussion Page 5 Neoliberalism in the UK Labour Party 6 Neo-liberalism is used positively, not just as a perjorative 7 The introductory paragraph is muddled 8 Provenance of the term 9 Neoliberalism Vs. Libertarianism 10 Something is wrong here. 11 POV dispute and semi-protection request 12 earlier systems (history section) 13 'Left of Centre' Vs Establishment 14 The Neoliberalism of Charles Peters 15 Argentina Case Study 16 New Zealand neoliberal section 17 A brief history of Neoliberalism. 18 A brief history of Neoliberalism.

[edit] Introduction

This called neo-liberalism a left-of-center ideology. I have changed this to right-of-center. What else is neo-liberalism?JohnG62 (talk) 19:58, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

The bit borrowed from Ong should mention Foucault's governmentality since it is the framework she uses and has been similarly employed by others to describe the process of neoliberalization. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.203.156.45 (talk) 11:44, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Content Forking

the article is gaining length, in order to give more indepth treatment of sides forking of the article may be a good idea.

For the individual countries if there is enough neoliberal reform or wat not then maybe those ones should have their own articles.

thoughts

Digmores (talk) 03:21, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Australia section

However, much of this reform policy had been developed earlier by the Liberal Party administration of prime minister Malcolm Fraser in which John Howard had served as treasurer.[citation needed]

You won't find a citation for this as it is wrong. The Campbell Committee made basically all of the recommendations and this was during this period. But in their infinite wisdom, Fraser and Howard didn't implement any of them. Only 20 years later after someone else had taken the blow torch for the a VAT and most of the other critically important changes to stability had been made by Hawke and Keating did Howard and Costello finally implement that. Credit where credit is due I say. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Odddmonster (talk • contribs) 23:34, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

The Labor government of Kevin Rudd which succeeded in 2007 has purported to roll back some of Howard's labour-market reforms but is generally continuing on a neoliberal course, including the provision of public funds to guarantee corporate finances, eg, for the private banks[54] and motor retailing corporations[55] dependent on foreign loans which were withdrawn during the financial crash of 2008.

How on earth could the Rudd Government's actions be termed "continuing on a neo-liberal course" - they are clearly NOT neoliberal. Rudd himself wrote a 7,000 word treatise in The Monthly on the evils of neoliberalism, and has gone on record attacking neoliberals such as Frederick von Hayek. This entire sentence should be removed. Thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Special:Contributions/Conno (talk) 00:20, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Labour market reform by both parties needs to be addressed as well including that was undertaken under Hawke, Keating and Howard. The section with kevin rudd in it dosen't make sense as he is not a neo-liberal neither does he promote neo-liberal policies so it should be removed except for the sections or points refering where he has done specific neo-liberal policies (its a null point as he hasen't done any)

Another thing should it be commented on where and when certain neo-liberal policies have been rolled back or changed so that they are no longer neo-liberal policies or is this not in the scope of the article/section?? thoughts —Preceding unsigned comment added by Digmores (talk • contribs) 05:59, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Digmores (talk) 06:00, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

I removed the section about Kevin Rudd as it was unsourced POV, also Rudd has said many times that he is a SOCIAL DEMOCRAT not a neoliberal

Digmores (talk) 03:27, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Organize Discussion Page

Please —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.68.21.167 (talk) 20:58, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

The best way to do that is to archive the discussion. All discussion threads appear to be over and I will archive them if there is no objection. The Four Deuces (talk) 23:27, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Have now archived. The Four Deuces (talk) 09:05, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Neoliberalism in the UK Labour Party

Editors contributing to this page may be interested in improving this article by utilising the large number of sources that have been uncovered demonstrating the ascendancy of the neo-liberal ideology in the UK Labour Party. These are listed in large numbers on the talk page of that article. Riversider (talk) 15:58, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Neo-liberalism is used positively, not just as a perjorative

The article currently states that the term 'neo-liberalism' is never used, except in a perjorative way by leftist opponents of neoliberal policies.

This is a 'black swan' argument, in that only one example of the use of the term in a positive way is neccessary to disprove it.

It therefore puzzles me why the reference to a positive use of the term by Tim Worstall on the Adam Smith Institute blog, and also rehashed here was removed, and the text changed in defiance of this piece of published evidence.

Can we change it back please, as other examples of positive use of the term by supporters of neoliberalism will quickly surface, and make the article seem daft. Riversider (talk) 12:44, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Further to the above, there are examples of 'neoliberalism' being used by 'neutrals' who stand outside the divide between pro and anti-neoliberal policies. For example the World Health Organisation gives us this:

Economic globalization is generally associated with neo-liberal policies. Such policies include reductions in tariffs, the reduction or elimination of restrictions on foreign investment, and the inclusion of services such as banking and insurance in trade regimes.....The increases in economic cross-border flows that have resulted in more “open” economies are a result, in part, of World Trade Organization, International Monetary Fund and World Bank policies. All this change is supported by a new international architecture - from the United Nations and international organizations, such as WHO, to economic blocs such as the European Union, the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries and the North American Free Trade Agreement. For some critics, this architecture supports and facilitates the benefits of globalization, but fails to limit its worst excesses as it drives forward a neo-liberal agenda that works to benefit the richer, more powerful nations. A more positive view of globalization is that it has the potential to boost productivity and living standards everywhere because a globally integrated economy can lead to a better division of labour and the right conditions for companies to exploit greater economies of scale. It is also claimed that, with globalization, capital can be shifted to whatever country offers the most productive investment opportunities, creating economic growth

. Riversider (talk) 14:59, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Here's another highly positive use of the term, with no hint of irony; Dr Alex Nicholls explaining why he believes 'Fairtrade' works well as a free-market method of supporting third world farmers:

Fairtrade is a unique solution to market failures in the global trading system. Firstly, as a consumer choice movement, it is outside the scope of government regulation and thus cannot be criticized as an interventionist trade policy. Secondly, by correcting market failures to make the trading system work for everyone, Fairtrade is, in fact, a neo-liberal solution to problems with trade. Fairtrade works within an efficient capitalist system, rather than abandoning the liberal trade model entirely.

Alex Nicholls is an MBA, and a lecturer in 'Social Entrepreneurship' (a concept that has 'third way' written all over it). I think we have gathered enough evidence here to conclusively disprove any assertion that the term is ONLY used by leftist critics of neoliberalism, but is indeed sometimes used by the neoliberals themselves. Riversider (talk) 15:27, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

@Riversider: Fair Trade might be considered a 'market solution' (and thus, a concession to some), but Nicholls here is ignoring that it's also a form of worker organization, which is antithetical to neoliberalism. Your point is clear though, it's not always used as a pejorative term. EvolutionRevolution (talk) 04:32, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Well the article currently says that it is only "very occasionally" used in a positive context. I think this language is weasel-word-y, and kind of POV as well (what qualifies it? any cite-able article that states there is no "neoliberal" ideology with supporters who call it that? from the above discussion, it looks like there are at least a few examples of supporters who do call it that). The wording should be changed from "very occasionally" to "sometimes" (which still stands in contrast to the earlier text that accounts for pejorative use).

Also, I think some of the wording of that sentence is a little confusing.

"By leftists the term 'neoliberalism' is used as a pejorative"

It would be fine and fair to say that most people who use the term pejoratively are leftists. But the sentence implies something different: that "Leftists," across the board, use the term pejoratively. This becomes confusing if we follow the logic of people's general associations of "Leftists" with "Liberalism" and, tranisitively, "Liberalism" with "Neoliberalism." While the sentence says that "Leftists" use the term pejoratively, I would assume that "Leftism" equates (even if somewhat roughly) with "Liberalism." And as far as I can see, "Neoliberalism" is still considered, if you will, a subset of "Liberalism." I think many readers will approach this sentence with these same associations in mind, and from this perspective, the sentence is confusing. If all "Neoliberals" are "Liberals" and some "Liberals" are "Leftists," might some supporters of "Neoliberalism" be "Leftists"? We can't really make an assumption that "Leftists" are more to the "Left" than where most "Liberals" are. A "Leftist" is usually seen as a "Liberal" while a "Right-winger" or "Person of the Right" etc is considered a "Conservative." Maybe we can clear this up a bit? I'd like to do it in a way that still avoids characterizing critics as being of the "Far Left" or "Radical Left" or anything like that. Sure, we can say that the vast majority of critics and people using the term pejoratively are Leftists -- but the article seems to imply the converse, that the vast majority of Leftists are critics (which is confusing for the reasons I just outlined). 173.3.41.6 (talk) 21:09, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

173 Neo-liberalism applies to a form of economic liberalism, rather than to social liberalism - 'leftists' (I agree a problematic formulation) tend to be 'social liberals' but critics of economic liberalism. Applying the term 'liberals' to the left is therefore confusing as it does not differentiate between economic and social liberalism, though I think some of the confusion of categories you explore above has enabled the the way former left parties have been taken over by leaderships with openly neo-liberal ideologies.

'Sometimes' is stronger than 'very occassionally' - I've only found a small number of citations to show the non-perjorative use of the term and I'm not sure there are yet enough to upgrade from 'very occassionally' to 'sometimes'. The use of the citation means that it is not 'weasel wording' as it answers the question 'who is saying this'. Riversider (talk) 10:43, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

the libertarians and conservatives do not use the term to describe their programs; it is very heavily used in the Marxist and leftist literature to denounce the policies involved. Google and Questia searches turn up thousands of hostile uses but not a single favorable cite in recent years. Likewise all the reference is NY Times in recent years are hostile. see NYTimes search That's what a pejorative term looks like. Rjensen (talk) 01:07, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm surprised you couldn't find any positive or non-perjorative uses of the term, I list 3 just above. I agree that probably 95% of the time it is used by opponents of neoliberal policies - but proponents of these ideas clearly do (very occasionally) use the term. It's not unusual however for political and economic trends to be identified and named first by their opponents and critics, and then for that name to 'stick' and come into more common usage - for example the word 'Tory' (the now non-perjorative nickname commonly used for the UK conservative party) originally meant 'outlaw' or 'robber'. I'd suggest a rather similar process is happening with neoliberalism. It would be totally wrong to state that the term is NEVER used positively or ALWAYS as a perjorative, as this is like saying 'there is no such thing as a black swan', as soon as one black swan turns up, the sentence becomes ridiculous. We have identified at least 3 black swans here and there are probably several more. Riversider (talk) 08:37, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Here's another citation on the positive impact of neoliberalism

Brazil’s adoption of neo-liberal practices which led to economic development benefitted the country because greater emphasis was placed on exports together with a more efficient use of imports produced larger trade surpluses, labor market deregulation kept wages and unemployment relatively low and higher rates of growth and productivity and a relatively stable macroeconomic environment reduced poverty and inequality.[6] Another major benefit that Brazil gained from the neoliberal practices were the controls on bank lending reduced the inflationary practice of state banks lending to the federal government. Baer stated that price stability and currency appreciation led to increased foreign imports and investment. Foreign direct investment in Brazil increased from less than US $1 billion in 1991 (net inflows) to a high of US $30 billion in 1999.

I'd also like to refer you to this thesis written by a strong advocate of 'neoliberal reform' and opponent of 'left/labor power',

.

These black swans are beginning to gather...Riversider (talk) 09:06, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

is that about it--an unsigned Wiki on Brazil and a 2006 unpublished MA thesis? We have about 99.9 % negative and 00.1% positive references. Rjensen (talk) 10:02, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

0.01% is enough to rule out the use of the words 'always' and 'never' and to justify the use of the words 'very occasionally', which is all I am arguing. I agree that the WHO, Alex Nicholls and the ASI are stronger sources. This book by Peter R.Kingstone is another pretty good example of the term being used in a neutral non-perjorative way.Riversider (talk) 10:06, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

The solution to meet Riversider2008's criteria is something like this: "Neoliberalism" is primarily a pejoritive term used by opponents of the policies; supporters rarely use the term and prefer terms like "free market" or "libertarian."[refs: Ronald Hamowy, The Encyclopedia of Libertarianism (2008) p. 208 Manfred B. Steger, and Ravi K. Roy. Neoliberalism: A Very Short Introduction (2010) page x Rjensen (talk) 11:31, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

It's certainly a citable quote, but the problem is that there are several obvious examples of neutral uses of the term by academics like Kingstone and organisations like the WHO, the existence of which contradicts what the quote says, as well as a much smaller number of examples of the term being used in a positive way by people like Alex Nicholls and Tim Worstall. Is it really that crucial that there is a sentence on who uses the term in the opening paragraph? Riversider (talk) 11:35, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Can I also point you to Monica Prasad (already cited in the main body of the article), from that cradle of liberal economics, the Chicago School, who has no fear of using the term 'Neoliberalism' in a non-perjorative way. Interestingly, Steger and Roy (2010), in the very book Rjensen quotes from have given us a useful example of the term being used in it's neutral sense as a name for a collection of ideas, and are attempting to describe briefly all the aspects of the development and history of neoliberal ideology, both negative and positive. Riversider (talk) 13:31, 8 April 2010 (UTC) Riversider (talk) 11:47, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

This comment is for Riversider2008. I think we are dealing with a global view of the meaning of "Neoliberalism" versus the use of the word by some American Progressives. It's extremely common these days in the US for Progressives to attack others on the ideological left who they view as "not left enough" by calling them "Neoliberals" hence the meaningless perjorative suggestion. You can see this by going onto OpEdNews.com and doing a search on the word. Additionally, George Lakoff, a fairly important author and linguist in the US who writes on American politics frequently uses the word the same way in his books. Perhaps a compromise in the wiki would be to add a small section that acknowledges that in the US the word is being used this way. Sleser001 (talk) 18:13, 4 October 2010 (UTC) sleser001 aka Steve Leser

Thanks Sleser, there are definite problems here as in the US, the word 'liberal' and the word 'left' are often seen as interchangeable, whereas in Europe 'Liberal' has a quite different meaning. There are plenty of terms with precisely defined meanings, that can be taken by those who do not fully understand these meanings and misapplied, often perjoratively: 'schizophrenic' is a prime example, a WP article on schizophrenia should reflect the scientific understanding of the term, rather than the mythology of popular culture, and this should apply to the term 'neoliberalism' too. Riversider (talk) 11:25, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

[edit] The introductory paragraph is muddled

It mentions that Alexander Rüstow coined the term, and that he was "one of the fathers of social market economy", without mentioning that neoliberalism as understood today (as opposed, apparently, to how Rüstow himself understood the term) is directly opposed to the social market economy. To quote Rüstow (translating) from the German Wikipedia page on neoliberalism:

The new liberalism, in any case, which one can support today, and which I, together with my friends, support, requires a strong state, a state above the economy, above self-interested parties [i.e., economic agents], there, where it [the state] belongs.

Thus, Rüstow would be a fierce critic of neoliberalism as it is understood today, since according to neoliberalism, markets take care of themselves, and the state just gets in the way. The first paragraph, if it continues to mention where the term "neoliberalism" comes from, should make that clear.

Hyperion (talk) 01:43, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Then find a source and rewrite it. The term is not used only as a pejorative and there is no need to mention the origins of the term. It should be mentioned in the article that Ruestow's theories were called neoliberalism and there is a connection between the earlier and modern meanings, since Ruestow was a colleague of Hayek and both wanted to develop post-war Germany along liberal lines, although they disagreed about how thaty should be done. The Four Deuces (talk) 14:26, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I will remove the reference to Rustow. He was writing in German about "Neoliberalismus" and that is not the same as the English term that is the topic of this article. Rjensen (talk) 13:22, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Provenance of the term

I removed the following sentence from the lead: "The term "Neoliberalism" came into wide use after the 1960s by Marxists". It has now been reinserted with a reference to Neoliberalism: A Very Short Introduction, p. X. But that page does not support that position either.[1] Not only does it not mention Marxists but it does not say anything about the 1960s. The Four Deuces (talk) 11:43, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Neoliberalism Vs. Libertarianism

Are they essentially the same? Or are there fundamental differences between them. 204.184.80.26 (talk) 16:12, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Well for the most part Libertarians criticise the Neoliberals (as normally and currently understood) as being a different kind of dirigists, socialists and such in an apparently anti-government way. Just see how Murray Rothbards criticised Reagan as a "reverse Keynesian" or "upside down Keynesianism". They also consider that neoliberalism privatises but also turns the government an "associate" and "protector" of privates (see corporate welfare) and as such they don't really fight governmental waist. 193.136.21.65 (talk) 12:18, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

See also governmentality (Foucault, Rose, Lemke, etc.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.203.156.45 (talk) 11:37, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Something is wrong here.

This article contains the word "Harvey" 16 times and "Friedman" 14 times. The names "Coase" and "Lucas" do not even appear at all. Harvey may deserve a place as one of the principal critics of neoliberal theory, but when his name appears more often than the founders of the movement itself, I think the neutrality of this article is seriously sacrificed. A more thorough and less ideological summary of the history of the neoliberal movement is badly needed here.

[edit] POV dispute and semi-protection request

Okay so it seems clear to me that this page is currently heavily biased, suggesting that Neoliberalism is purely a pejorative term and the cause is obvious. Despite the above discussion on the subject and having been reverted previously, user 92.118.215.215 is persistently editing the article to their point of view. I suggest that the article be semi-protected to put an end to it ans so we can restore neutrality to this page. Gul e (talk) 22:02, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Semi-protection is to prevent edit-warring and vandalism by floating IPs, but 92.118.215.215 appears to be a stable IP address. The IP seems to confuse libertarianism with neoliberalism. Since the IP originates from Greece he has a front row seat to neoliberalism. TFD (talk) 22:46, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

If you do find a need to request page protection, the place to go is WP:RFPP. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 23:17, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

There could be a strong case for reporting said user for edit warring, deleting a well-referenced point from a valid authoritative secondary source, repeatedly, is not good WP behaviour. Riversider (talk) 23:16, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

It's not POV that all the sources of this so called "ideology" point as it's founders, architects, intellectuals etc to economists like Milton Friedman, Ludwig von Mises, F.A Hayek. It's not point of view that these people have never written anything about "Neoliberalism". It's not point of view that all of them identified themselves as Liberals. It's not POV that this label comes from the leftists and neutrals have them as sources and not people that identify themselves as neoliberals and write about neoliberalism. Finally it's not POV that none of you is neoliberal so until you find one that complains that we deny his/her existence the article should make clear all this facts and that there has never been a neoliberal ideology. Truth 12:3510 May 2010 (CET) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.118.215.215 (talk) 09:35, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

And one last thing it's not POV that democrat Bill Clinton ex prime minister of USA, socialdemocrat Tony Blair, socialdemocrat Gerhard Schröder ex prime minister of Germany, conservative G.W.Bush ex prime minister of USA are called neoliberals by the leftists. In Greece the conservative party leader called the socialdemocrat prime minister neoliberal, the socialdemocrats many times in the past called the consercatives neoiberals and the leftist parties call everybody neoliberal. So until you find a party that says we are neoliberal and we are proud of our neoliberal policies you are talking about a ghost. A fantasy... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.118.215.215 (talk) 09:50, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Can you suggest a better term for them? TFD (talk) 18:01, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

IP - If you were to read the talk page, you'd find that I've identified just such examples above. Not many, but more than the zero you assert. There are plenty of political trends and ideologies that are first recognised and named by their opponents: 'Trotskyism' was a term coined by Trotskys enemies and popularised by the Stalinists, the term 'Tory' originally meant 'robber', but was eventually adopted by those labelled with it. The fact that those labelled with this title do not usually apply it to themselves does not invalidate it: it exists and is in common usage, including among respected academic sources, so is a proper subject for an encyclopedia. Riversider (talk) 20:11, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

If you mean Adam Smith Institute it's a silly example, if I write a blog post explaining what is that thing which they call me it does't mean I adopt that label. Apparently you are not a liberal and you know nothing about the liberal scene. All over the world all the liberals perceive it as a pejorative label because it is a label that use our political opponents. Tories call themselves Tories but no one calls himself neoliberal, so until 2010 it is a label for economic liberalism, not an ideology. Do you think that a fact like that should not be included in an encyclopedia? Secondly I did my research and there is already an ideology called neoliberalism and it is center left but somebody deleted this fact from the wikipedia. Truth 12:28 12 May 2010 (CET) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.118.215.215 (talk) 21:28, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

So what do neoliberals call themselves? TFD (talk) 21:45, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Blair, the consummate neoliberal, gave himself the pretty meaningless label 'progressive' while carrying out his programme of privatisations, liberalisation of banking regulations and economically motivated warfare. Neoliberalism is a highly pragmatic set of ideas - its practitioners give themselves a pretty diverse set of names depending on their history and what is politically expedient, but can by identified because of a common set of economic and political objectives and tactics. The argument that 'neoliberals don't call themselves neoliberals therefore neoliberalism doesn't exist' does not hold water - terrorists don't call themselves terrorists, they give themselves a diverse range of other labels, yet exist and 'terrorism' is a proper topic for an encyclopedia, despite the absence of self-published sources where terrorists identify themselves as such. Riversider (talk) 08:43, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Terrorism has a pretty well defined universal definition (not who is a terrorist but what is a terrorist). Neoliberalist on the other hand is just a label in the way you use it (everyone that does not deny the Market) and it does not have a universal definition. As an ideology it comes from the left, in fact both neoconservatism and neoliberalism come from the left. Neoliberalists are liberals in the american sense that accept more market and neocons are conservatives that accept more government (because they come from the left) but in the end they meet in the same point almost (from left to left center and from right to right center).

"If neoconservatism are liberals (in the american sense) who took a critical look at liberalism and decided to become conservatives, we are liberals (with the american sense) who took the same look and decided to retain our goals but to abandon some of our prejudices (about the market, war etc)" - The Neoliberal Manifesto (Charles Peters - the guy that coined the term neoliberalism for this ideology)

"Neoconservatives are not libertarian in any sense. A conservative welfare state is perfectly consistent with the neoconservative perspective." - Irvin Kristol (the founder of the neoconservative movement)

"Neo-cons do not feel that kind of alarm or anxiety about the growth of the state in the past century, seeing it as natural indeed inevitable" - Irving Kristol

Pro market policies are not neoliberal nor neoconcevative. You cannot say that establishment politicians are neoliberals or neocons just because they practice some pro market policies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.118.215.215 (talk) 23:31, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

What does any of this have to do with the article or more importantly improving it? TFD (talk) 01:22, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Pro-market, pro-finance capital politics/ideology has been the ideology of the economic and political establishment, whether they ostensibly come from left or right (from the late 70's at least up until the credit crunch). Neoliberalism is the name given to this ideology. Large numbers of academic papers use the term and explore the implications of this set of policies and ideas. Charles Peters manifesto is a (rare) example of a neoliberal calling themselves a neoliberal, the rest don't really need to. Riversider (talk) 08:48, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

The left is in confusion. They don't know the difference between neoconservatism, neoliberalism, liberalism and libertarianism. Neoliberalism is not whatever policy is a bit pro-market. The left that practices some pro-market policies has moved a bit to the center thus it is center left (neoliberal Clinton), the right that enlarges the Government (neocon Bush) while still practices some pro-market policies has moved a bit to the center thus it is center right. The confusion is very funny because the left call everybody neoliberal even though they are not. For example Milton Friedman is called neoliberal so is IMF even though Friedman and other liberals like Rothbard advocated for its abolishment. IMF is called neoliberal even though supports for example high taxation (in Greece they asked us to raise the VAT). Bush is called neoliberal even though he was one of the biggest spenders in the history of the USA. Wikipedia should shed some light of what neoliberalism is and it is a center-left ideology, that is left-liberalism (liberalism as defined in the USA) with some pro market policies. Four Deuces all these show that it is left center ideology. Truth 13:31, 20 May 2010 (CET) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.118.215.215 (talk)

this article should not refer to the topic in a political sense as it is an economic argument for exmaple in my country australia neoliberal policies have been implmented by both the Labor and Liberal (conservative) parties though they have condridictory views on other social policies such as healthcare, immigration, transfer payments etc.

secondly the term neoliberal is used by many people and politicians to further a specific agenda without regard to whether or not they are actually neoliberal, try to focus on sources written by central banks, or papers that an economist would read rather than the popular press. thirdly a little think on ur above comment IP, increasing taxation in order to reduce deficit is within the bounds of neoliberal theory especially within the context of the current crisis which is a liquidity crisis where increased expansionary fiscal policy could do more harm than good. finally a person should not be used as an example of any ideolgy evan if they say that they represent that idology if they conflict with basic tenants of that ideology i.e. George Bush dubious neoliberal me thinks.

oh a passing point on greece, the reason why greece is going through such a harsh crisis with austerity measures being put in place is due to economic policies that provide large transfer payments, a infective tax system, corruption, greed by the man in the street, and dodgy accounting methods that didnt show the real amount of government debt. Therefore in my view greece situation is due to the absence of neoliberal/neoclassical policies and the use of government orientated economy compounded by the points outlined above.

if you have any questions,critiscisms or troll like comments please do not feel shy post on my talk page.

Digmores (talk) 12:24, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

one more thing many ppl dont see milton Friedman as a neoliberal

Digmores (talk) 12:25, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

in reference to my very first point that this article should be treated more as one on economics and one less on politics, there is another article called the third way which discuss the idea of left wing parties taking free market economic policies

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way_%28centrism%29

Digmores (talk) 12:34, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

From the 1970s governments retreated from the welfare state and protectionism, which they saw as unsustainable and a hindrance to growth and adopted free market policies while reducing the welfare state, concentrating on fighting inflation and deficits rather than unemployment. Do you doubt that that happened? Your only dispute is what it should be called. The term neoliberalism is generally accepted, but if you have a better term then please provide one. Incidentally neoliberalism refers to the policies presented and does not mean that the Communists, socialists, liberals and conservatives who carried out these policies in China, NZ, US and UK are all neoliberals, just that they implimented neoliberal policies. TFD (talk) 16:08, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Moved from earlier discussion, since it relates to POV dispute: Adding up the Black Swans is rather missing the point. It is a term mainly, but not solely, used by opponents of the ideas it expresses. The term is explicitly rejected by some supporters. However, that does not make it merely a pejorative term. Writers such as David Harvey (A Brief History of Neoliberalism) take some time to specify the ideas and policies that they mean. Even the fiercer critics, Such as Naomi Klein (The Shock Doctrine) reach for harsher terms, such as Disaster Capitalism, to be pejorative: she implies that others use Neoliberalism to mean something similar.

Milton Friedman tried to reclaim the term Liberalism for his political ideas (Capitalism and Freedom), but its use to describe completely different, left-leaning, ideas was too well embedded in America. Other supporters used the terms Economic Liberal or Libertarian, but Neoliberalism truly does describe a specific development of these concepts. So no term is widely accepted by its supporters, but it does describe something specific. I like the highlighted description above, without the word 'pejorative', or even better "... Neo-liberalism is probably unique in in being rejected as a label by almost all those described as being Neo-liberals", from Dictionary of Liberal Thought (edited Duncan Brack & Ed Randall), which then quotes Mario Vargas Llosa in support.

Note that these were Milton Friedman's political ideas, not his economics. The term describes the political policies developed from these, even though many are predicated on certain economic theories. BritishLib (talk) 18:13, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

toward whom is ur point directed in context of this discussionDigmores (talk) 13:53, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

I am generally arguing against using 'pejorative'. I assume this is supposed to be simply a debate on that, not a discussion group. Please ignore the reference to black swans (from the other topic above), but the main argument still seems to be that the word must be pejorative if it is not used by its supporters. My argument is that it is used by critics (not necessarily of the left), but not just as an insult. It is not used by supporters, because they want to claim a particular ancestry for their ideas. The last paragraph was a particular answer to the suggestions that only economic arguments should be used. BritishLib (talk) 15:58, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

I have been reading the Wikipedia Content Criteria (via link Interaction: About Wikipedia). The problem with this statement is not that it is POV, but that it is 'original research'. The editor's own analysis should not be included, however well founded. Only analysis already formally published should be used. I intend to replace the statement with one I can properly source: it also reads as a more judicious statement, but that is less important. BritishLib (talk) 10:08, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

[edit] earlier systems (history section)

is this section really necessary if so a breif descripition of the system and a redirect to its respective page should be enough there is no need to outline economic history all the way up to the formulation of neoliberalism as an economic idea Digmores (talk) 04:23, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Agree, the following section describes the "embedded liberalism" to which neoliberalism was a reaction. TFD (talk) 05:10, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

[edit] 'Left of Centre' Vs Establishment

There's been some debate on here about whether neoliberalism should be described as a 'left of centre', 'right of centre' or 'establishment' ideology. The position WP finally takes in this debate should be determined by WHAT THE PUBLISHED SOURCES say, not by individual editors opinions.

In the 1970's neoliberalism was put into practice by Pinochet and Thatcher. In the 1990s by Blair and Clinton. I'd suggest that this shows that politicians from various party backgrounds adopted neoliberal policies and ideology (though in the latter cases without openly identifying themselves as neoliberal), so describing it as a 'right' or a 'left' ideology is pretty meaningless in the modern context (the old left/right 'spectrum' method of identifying political orientation is now outdated anyway, as traditional 'left' parties have moved rightwards internationally).

I'd suggest that we stick with what the majority of published authoritative sources say - that neoliberalism is the ideology held by the political and economic establishment between the 1970s up till the credit crunch. (Whether the credit crunch has resulted in the establishment rejecting neoliberalism, or holding tighter to it is still debateable, and we probably don't have enough published sources yet to avoid recentism in describing post-credit crunch economic thinking). Riversider (talk) 08:36, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

i agree and disagree with u to a certain extent i think that left of centre and right of centre arguments are still valid however as i have said above this is an article on economics not politics so it should refer as u say to established economic sources rather than the popular media which i agree can lead to recentism which contains much hysteria and very little anylsis of the actual cause and effect.

Digmores (talk) 21:13, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

I think it is both economic and political - economic policies have consequences, and require political action to impliment. But there is no need to place it in the political spectrum. TFD (talk) 21:42, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

As an ideology, neoliberalism impacts on the political as well as the economic sphere, also in the fields of society, culture and law. There are good academic sources for the effects of neoliberalism in each of these spheres. The key thing about neoliberalism is that it is big and insidious enough to go well beyond traditional party boundaries, and, as the establishment ideology has been present as the 'common sense' of the leaders of both right wing and ostensibly left wing parties. Riversider (talk) 15:50, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

The sources you are citing are all from leftists or have as their sources leftists. They are all critical to that thing you call neoliberal. In that case you are not talking about the ideology neoliberalism but about the label. The label that leftists give to economic liberalism. For that label everybody are neoliberals, Social democrats, democrats, conservatives etc. It's a label because for pro-market policies there is already a name and it's economic liberalism. The ideology on the other hand is left center and I have provided sources for it. That is the american neoliberalism, there is also a german ideology called neoliberalism and that too is left center (see the german wikipedia entry). So all the ideologies called neoliberalism are left center. The label is a straw man, there is no consensous that all the economic liberal policies fall under that name. Maybe there is a consensus in the left wing but not in general. Truth 00:02, 24 May 2010 (CET)

im not sure wat sort of point ur trying to make in ur third sentence it seems to be filled with emtionally charged language.

Digmores (talk) 04:06, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

The point is that neoliberal policies have been implemented by parties across the political spectrum: communist (China), socialist (NZ), liberal (US), Christian Democrat (Germany), conservative (UK) and right-wing (Chile). TFD (talk) 04:16, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

i get that bit but i dont understand what he means in this part "as the establishment ideology has been present as the 'common sense' of the leaders of both right wing and ostensibly left wing parties" so question wat do u mean by establishment ideology and commen sense. thats my question —Preceding unsigned comment added by Digmores (talk • contribs) 04:42, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

I think it means that it is the ideology of the business and political elites and that no matter what someone's political persuasion they can only govern within the neoliberal paradigm. There is no other way. In that sense it is similar to embedded liberalism, policies that all parties followed whatever their core beliefs. TFD (talk) 05:00, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

The idea that "neoliberalism" is the "establishment" ideology in Britain is ludicrous. When Brown was Prime Minister he extolled Keynes in his attempt to spend his way out of recession, a policy which is totally and utterly opposite to "neoliberalism".--Britannicus (talk) 10:36, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

They were temporary measures during a recession, which is exactly what Reagan and Thatcher did in the early 80s. Despite the rhetoric, there was no reformulation of economic policy. TFD (talk) 12:08, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

TFD has interpreted my argument correctly. By 'establishment' and 'common sense' I mean that since the 70's neoliberalism has been the hegemonic paradigm. look up hegemony. Plenty of authoritative published sources back this explanation. The arguments for labelling 'neoliberalism' a left of centre ideology are utterly confused - 4 Deuces has it right on this where he points out the wide variety of political backgrounds of neoliberal regimes. Riversider (talk) 22:15, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Neoliberalism is left of center, see the sources that I provided in wikipedia entry, see also the wikipedia entry for example of Washington Monthly (e.g. The politics of the Monthly are left of center). You use it as a label for economic liberalism. For example see this quote from the Library of Economics and Liberty 'This morning, Scott Sumner has an excellent post on economic growth and the extent to which it is due to what he calls "neoliberal" reforms. He never defines "neoliberal," but it's clear from the context and the specific policies that he names that he means "liberal" in the original sense of the word: smaller government as a % of GDP, lower marginal tax rates, less regulation, etc.' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.118.215.215 (talk) 23:47, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

such an outlook is one of classical liberalism, which in my country (Australia) is support by centre right party for about the last 50 or so years.

Digmores (talk) 08:04, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

i would disagree with ur second statement(as i understand it of course) that a dominant group imposes its will on society or there is concensus in that society. The experience of neoliberalism in my own country at least has been implmentation of neoliberal reform by economic liberalists who sat in the fringes of the two main political parties but by crossing party lines to a certain extent where able to implment incrediably unpopular economic reform on the majority from a position of weakness. also if the sources controdict my rambling could u post them so i could read up and make an informed decision.

P

Digmores (talk) 08:11, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Digmores, you'll find plenty of material backing up the point that neoliberalism has been the hegemonic ideology by typing 'neoliberal paradigm' or 'neoliberal hegemony' into google. The phenomenon you describe, where political parties talk populist but act neoliberal is repeated all over the world, and by people from all kinds of points of political origination. When Rome was hegemonic, all roads led there, in todays international political establishment 'all roads lead to neoliberalism'. Riversider (talk) 14:39, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

the point i was trying to make was that one should not apply a blanket label to neoliberalism and assume that it is the hegemonic ideology throughout the world in fact there can be instances where neoliberal policys have been implmented against the will of dominant group by "rebels" who have gained control at a moment in history. one of the other big issues with neoliberalism is that many countries "claim" to be neoliberal but they are very social democrat or moving in that direction. Case in point the united states since the 1950s there has been broadening of social welfare and military spending while a reduction in the tax base due to "Neoliberal Economic Reform". a microeconmic example in the USA closed shop unionism is illegal but has many loopholes in so that the union movement in quite a few states can function as closed shop unions. So I think that when saying that neoliberalism is accepted by many nations and that all roads lead to it you have to take into account what neoliberal policies they implment and how they actually turn out i.e. are they implmented properly, you dont get ponts for trying to reform the economy. Also a google search does support the idea that Neoliberalism is a hegemonic ideology but i also found that there were alot and a mean a very large proportion of pages that look at neoliberalism from communist/socilist/anarchist perspective, if you have found other to sugest hegemonic ideology and u believe that there are good sources post them on my talk page because im genuinly interested and would like to have a look.Digmores (talk) 21:53, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

There are in fact nations that challenge the neoliberal paradigm (e.g., Venezuela) and political parties that follow neoliberal policies grudgingly. But that does not stop it from being the hegemonic ideology throughout the world. TFD (talk) 22:25, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

'Hegemony' is a bit of a lefty word, ever since Gramsci it's been used by lefties who want to feel intellectual, if you search 'neoliberal paradigm' you will find more of the non-lefty pages. Riversider (talk) 21:56, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

I have no idea what you are talking about. Could you please explain. In what way is opposition to liberalism left-wing? have you never heard of conservatism? TFD (talk) 01:54, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Have you never heard of Marxism? That is after all based on a rejection of liberalism, economic and political.--Britannicus (talk) 02:00, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Conservatism and Marxism are not the same thing - please provide a source that they are. TFD (talk) 02:33, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

You asked in what way is opposition to liberalism left-wing, I provided the answer.--Britannicus (talk) 02:49, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Opposition to liberalism may come from the left or the right. In fact liberalism is normally considered neither left nor right. TFD (talk) 02:51, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree that Liberalism (in the British sense) is neither left nor right, but surely we are discussing Neoliberalism. Neoliberalism (in the sense of this article) is frequently attacked from the left, in that it leads to inequality: e.g. Vijay Prashad and Naomi Klein, as well as those mentioned in the article. On the other hand, John Ralston Saul cricises it more for its intellectual flaws. BritishLib (talk) 13:25, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Although Neoliberalism is considered right of centre by the many critics mentioned (and appears to be so in outcome if not in aspiration), John Ralston Saul (The Collapse of Globalism) supports the idea that it was part of an unquestioned consensus. He calls the consensus Globalism, defined as the complete dismissal of 'the state' - ie all governments and public bodies. He clearly considers Neoliberalism as an intellectual component of Globalism. He does, however claim that the consensus was breaking down by 2003. Clearly the reactions to the banking crisis reasserted the value of government action, even in economic management. BritishLib (talk) 14:30, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

The Washington Monthly use of Neoliberalism is completely different from the meaning being discussed here. There are other topics for whether this is a POV meaning, and whether (and where) to describe the meaning used by Peters. Whatever you may think of it, this specific meaning is widely used, perhaps more outside the U.S. It is hard enough to come to a conclusion about this topic without introducing other discussions. BritishLib (talk) 14:30, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

[edit] The Neoliberalism of Charles Peters

The first paragraph, defining Neoliberalism in terms of Peters's ideas should not be on this page. His manifesto is in the mainsteam of American Liberalism, ie left-leaning, not the market-based ideas described later. The latter ideas, and the association with the word Liberalism, were popularised by Milton Fiedman in Capitalism and Freedom. Could this paragraph be moved to a different page, and added to the disambiguation? BritishLib (talk) 17:54, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree, although called US liberalism "left-leaning" is an exaggeration. In fact Peters was not the first person to use the term "neoliberalism" and the term "new liberalism" had also been used before. The current use of the term dates to the 90s. There is no evidence that this term is currently used in the US. I have removed the paragraph. TFD (talk) 16:44, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Argentina Case Study

Once again I have posted the case study of Argentina as a reason why neoliberalism does not necessarily work with developing nations. Please feel free to discuss this here before randomly deleting, for I will keep posting it. Cheers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Erocifellerskank (talk • contribs) 20:42, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

[edit] New Zealand neoliberal section

I think the New Zealand section of this article by juxtaposing the neoliberal reforms with New Zealanders quality of life etc etc kind of implies that New Zealand is a happy country because of the reforms in the 80s, which is not necessarily the case? By putting the paragraphs next to each other it sort of implies they are logically tied, which is a pretty big assumption - I think New Zealand would still be happy and have high human development scores even (some might say despite) the neoliberal reforms that happened?

I'm new here so I'm not quite sure what protocol is so I thought I'd just chuck in my two cents ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ballofstring (talk • contribs) 01:06, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

[edit] A brief history of Neoliberalism.

A brief history of Neoliberalism can be found in a book with the same words in its title, authored by David Harvey: ISBN 0199283273

[edit] A brief history of Neoliberalism.

A brief history of Neoliberalism can be found in a book with the same words in its title, authored by David Harvey: ISBN 0199283273 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.152.213.216 (talk) 21:11, 16 September 2010 (UTC)