Talk:Zionism

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Former featured article Zionism is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
This is a controversial topic that may be under dispute. Please discuss substantial changes here before making them, making sure to supply full citations when adding information, and consider tagging or removing uncited/unciteable information.
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[edit] Edits

[edit] Terminology

Rmv large amount of text in footnotes. (Summary: Quotes in cites are to verify the claims of the text that they cite. They are not footnotes. Rmv massive swath of text per WP:FORUM, that additionally, fail to cite the assertion in the main text)
I didn't even like to leave the cites that were there, as the quote from one of the books, which one would hope was the most appropriate to citing the assertion, "the label "Zionist" is in some cases also used as a euphemism for Jews in general by apologists for antisemitism", failed to do so. Hopefully someone can find those books and determine whether they actually cite the material. I believe that the phrase itself is correct, but of course what we need is verifiability. The irony of WP, in cases such as this, is that those most capable of verifiability (in this case, alleged anti-semites who read the sources that use Zionist as a euphemism) are the least likely to employ it in the service of a case such as this.

I will continue rewording the large quotations that do not verify the material. Anarchangel (talk) 20:11, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

the intro has been irritating me for months so follwoing your comments I removed almost 5000 bytes worth of unnecessary referencing from the intro.

Telaviv1 (talk) 10:10, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Support for Zionism among non-Jewish groups

Suggest changing the title of 'Non-Jewish Zionism' to the above, as most of the groups discussed are not Zionist as such. Anarchangel (talk) 20:11, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


(Summary: Rmv 'Evangelical'; All Christians supporting Zionism were not Evangelicals, nor is D.Lloyd George empirically observed to have been an Evangelical. Rmv discredited cite)
As the below cite shows, the previous cite was in error.

Original text removed: W. E. B. Du Bois was an ardent supporter of Zionism, (summary: Rmv WE du Bois; see Talk.)
As the below cite shows, du Bois was nothing like ardent in support of even Jewish resistance to Nazism, let alone Zionism. He was not opposed to either, but he is most certainly not notable as a supporter. The sentence, "W. E. B. Du Bois spoke about against Nazi persecution of Jews" would be verifiable, but not notable in this context.
Google Books search for quote: W.E.B. Du Bois by David L. Lewis.

I will continue finding cites for, or refuting the inclusion of, the other non-Zionists included. Anarchangel (talk) 20:11, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Loyd George was a nonconformist. http://www.jstor.org/pss/565044 his parents were baptists. I understand that this a type of evangelical. check your facts before you question what is written.

Telaviv1 (talk) 14:17, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Wiki is jewish with jewish supremacy agendas?

WiKi must be jewish, what a trick for people with an agenda to create their own dictionary?

1) The definition of zionism by wiki is what any jew would say and nothing like most people who use the term. It is mostly used as a term for jewish supremacy. 2)The defintion given for "the 13th tribe" a book by arthur koestler, a jew, who explains how jews are not biblical israelites goes way out of its way to make claims of the book being false which is no more than common propaganda in jewish and zionist circles.

I know of 2 more equal points that show that wiki may be jewish and perhaps several more that I will find. Ive only been noticing this a documenting jewish bias definitions in wiki on a per chance and coincidental basis for a month. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.77.119.242 (talk) 03:48, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

And stating that WiKi is with "Jewish supremacy agenda" and writing it with no facts behind that statement, isn't that a bit Anti-Jewish agenda ?

"WiKi must be jewish" - can you hear yourself? It this the kind of talk allowed in an Open-liberal-world round Encyclopedia ?

Do your homework, read the article, it's surrounding articles and some books, then, you'll have the permission of "jewishing" an Encyclopedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.250.111.251 (talk) 11:47, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

67.77.119.242: I can tell you one thing about Wikipedia, it is not a soapbox for you to argue your point of view.WackoJacko (talk) 03:12, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
I totally agree, but note the article does suffer from excessive conflation of Zionist ideology as being completely congruent with Judaism as a whole. See my recent edit concerning population in the lede section. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 04:07, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] 'Opposition, critics and evolution' big problems

Expansion, sourcing, and NPOV needed. Criticism of Zionism is multi-faceted and has changed in character and content over time, as Zionism has changed. It began before the 1920s, of course, and Zionism's first critics need to have their viewpoints stated. Criticism of Zionism changed drastically and fundamentally after a specific place, Palestine, was decided on and serious and concrete efforts at establishing a Jewish/Zionist state there began. There are numerous unsourced statements. There is an unsourced accusation of association with anti-semitism without rebuttal.Haberstr (talk) 22:44, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I most heartedly agree. These aspects come from many different sources, and absolutely have varied over time; these should be discussed generally to facilitate an ordered presentation[1]. Much criticism is intramural, religiously speaking, while other is religious, evolutionarily speaking. It should be noted that Zionism is a non-assimilationist expression of Judaism and a break from the assimilation trend that was previously dominant, and continues. In light of other historical events, no derogation is implied or intended. Much criticism came from assimilationist American Jews particularly in the earlier pre-state period, including Isaac Mayer Wise and the American Jewish Committee, who were strongly anti-Zionist, although I sadly note one cannot say that, based on their current wiki-articles. Jewish anti-Zionist statements were made at the time of the 1919 Paris Peace Conference[2]. The clash between Brandeis and Weizmann in the early 1920’s is another historic incident of import, but is similarly difficult to discuss, since Brandeis' name isn’t even noted on the page, let alone his contributions to Zionism. There is also the ACJ from 1942; it is currently listed in ‘Other’.
The general evolution of Zionism, as well as increased anti- or non-Zionism, is somewhat indicated here, but is unreferenced for 1967 events. Latter events, which tend to indicate Zionist evolutionary trajectory are better referenced, but deal more with politics and territory than religion, although the growth of certain religious groups in this period stands out. These more recent evolutionary developments, particularly since 1977 and Likud power may be best characterized by differences initially between Zionism and Post-Zionism ideologies and more recently between right-wing Neo-Zionism and post-Zionism. Other sources[3] characterize differences in identity as being “Eretz Israel versus Medinat Israel”, and are similar. These impacts on Israel, Jews and Zionism have effects in Israel, in the Diaspora, as well as in the rest of the world. Yes, there seem to be problems with the current version.
I will delete the unsourced accusation for lack of NPOV rebuttal. Regards, CasualObserver'48 (talk) 03:04, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I disagree that Zionism is an expression of Judaism. Religious Zionism is relatively minor part of Zionist movement historically, while mainstream Zionism is secular national movement, unrelated to religion. Many early Labor Zionists were Marxists for example, and considered any religion " opium for the people". Igorb2008 (talk) 21:47, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

This is already noted for the early years, but much less noted in the post '67-'77 years and since; it reflects the rise of Religious Zionism in the interim. If you consider that to be the case, please add reliably sourced and verifiable sources that support such views. The more difficult task generally revolves around finding the most relevant location for their insertion and how neutrally they are inserted. Good luck, this is a tough page. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 12:07, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
Even now Religious Zionism is relatively minor part of Zionist movement. In latest Israeli election,for example, Religious Zionists, only got 3 seats out of 120 ( Israeli legislative election, 2009 ),
with The Jewish Home. And only Religious Zionists, see Zionism as an expression of Judaism, and religious mitsva. All other streams in Zionism see Zionism as national liberation movement, and their attitude towards religion varies. So to describe Zionism as a whole, as an expression of Judaism, I think will be misleading.Igorb2008 (talk) 14:52, 29 March 2009 (UTC)


I'm new here so excuse me if i seem ignorant of your neutrality policies regarding articles that involve israel or zionism. But, does anybody else feel it is a little bit odd for an encyclopedia article to have a big section for other supporters of zionism including christian and muslim supporters and a microscopic section with dsputed neutrality for criticism to zionism with no mention at all of muslim and arab opponents? Am i allowed to expand the criticism section just a little bit and mention other referenced criticisms. I am afraid that my edits might cause the section to become more disputed and eventually deleted completely. I apologize again if this seems very naive but i'm lost in all those wikipedia policies and i really can't find the policy regarding editing articles related to zionism. Thank you in advance for your help.--196.205.225.151 (talk) 01:53, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Because this is a page subject to considerable vandalism, it is semi-protected, so as a new editor, you will likely be refused edit rights for a while. You do note some extremely valid points, however, and I find them to be quite insightful; I'd say you have a real chance to contribute. It generally takes a few weeks of edits to build yourself a contribution history such that the great wiki-computer in the sky allows you to edit here. If you can keep a good history with no vandalism, you will be OK. I suggest however, that you also choose a username; that makes regular editors more comfortable when they look at edits. Take your time; consider basics about what is missing from your point of view, and what should be added that adds to quality article content and conforms with your pov. It must be reliably sourced and verifiable, and neutrally inserted. Those are the basics and quality of source is very important. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 12:07, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
The reason is that there is a whole, lengthy article devoted to criticism of Zionism. It's called Anti-Zionism, and it's a spin-off or sub-article of this one. The article is merely summarized here. Jayjg (talk) 02:10, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Hankin

I can't see a mention of Yehoshua Hankin in the article. Any thoughts/suggestions on where it would be best to add a mention about him? JaakobouChalk Talk 13:01, 30 March 2009 (UTC)<a

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