Talk:Yom Kippur

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Contents

[edit] Christian terms.

Should Bible be replaced with Torah, and "Hebrew Bible" with "Tanakh"? Are there some articles that should use "G-d" instead of "God"? -- Jeandré, 2004-09-24t19:33z

Bible, in this article, is probably synonymous with "Hebrew Bible" and "Tanakh". Please note that "Torah" only comprises the first five books of the Bible. I would discourage use of "G-d". This is a practice reserved for print, to allow for discarding it after use without destroying God's name. JFW | T@lk 11:43, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I say do it, so long as you explain what they mean in Secular terms. The idea is to have this article look like a Jew wrote it, how he or she would write it. HereToHelp 20:31, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
re: "G-d". The way I have seen it explained is that it is not written out anyplace where it might be destroyed in some manner. This usually includes electronic messageboards and email (deletion = destruction), but it may be a matter of individual choice. That being said, however, to do it here would make it harder for non-Jews to read. There's got to be some modern halacha on it, I'm sure, but I'm not sure what the practice is when you're dealing with a general consumption text as opposed to a text with a purely Jewish audience. MSJapan 00:32, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
re: re: "G-d": I had a class in which the teacher discouraged using a dash. The term "God" is merely an English appellation that carries no inherent holiness (ie: is not forbidden to erase) as it is not in Hebrew. Even the most popular Aramaic term for God, Rachmana ("The Merciful One") the earliest use of a term for God of Israel not in the Hebrew vernacular is mentioned in the Talmud as being a term that can be used in non-holy states. The teacher weaned us off the dash practice because it implies that a language other than loshn kodesh, the Holy Tongue of Hebrew, can be imbued with divine holiness. I say keep the dash out of it. --Valley2city₪‽ 07:55, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Under no circumstances should bible be replaced with Torah. That is very disrespectful. Jews call their holy book the Torah, not the Hebrew bible. Christians call their holy book the Bible. The Muslims call their holy book the Koran. Asking that question is like asking whether the term bible should be replaced with torah.

Please sign your entries. I agree with Jeandre, it should be replaced with Torah. That is the Hebrew name. --Jbanning22 14:12, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Because it occurs in Leviticus, it is in the Torah, but it would probably more correct to call the "Hebrew Bible" the Tanach rather than the Torah. The Tanach is the whole thing: the Torah, Nevi'im, and Ketu'vim. Calling the Hebrew Bible the Torah would be like calling the Christian Bible the Gospels. ('Gospels' only refers to Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John, right?)Sir Akroy 22:44, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Avodah Service

Would there be any merit to adding a section on the Avodah Service? I feel it is relevant since this service on Yom Kippur was the one time in the year when both the Holy of Holies is entered and the Name of God uttered.

Definitely. I think the current one needs expanding. I'll get started on the modern "reenactment" but if there is anyone who is an expert on the topic, please chime in. --Valley2city₪‽ 16:17, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Holidays

You may be interested in the WikiProject, WikiProject Holidays, a WikiProject that will focus on standardizing articles about Holidays. It has been around for quite some time, but I'm starting it up again, and would like to see some more members (and our original members) around the help out. Cheers. — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 21:12, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Great! Sadly, only a small percentage of the Wiki community know enough to write, although they can always research it. But that puts this in Secular terms; I don't want that. It gives it an "unJewish" feel--se my comment above. HereToHelp 20:34, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "heathen" nations?

"Heathen" seems like a loaded word, with derogatory connotations, at least in the absence of any explanation of the term. Could it be replaced with something more easily understood, or explained in context? Peter 20:13, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

I've replaced it with "other", which is neutral. JFW | T@lk 21:16, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Kol Nidre clarification

The passage on the Kol Nidre is unclear for those who are not already familiar with it (and, as it stands, gives support to the anti-semitic version). Information from the Kol Nidre article should be summarized by someone familiar with the subject (that person, sadly, is not me) and added to the article.

I removed all related material; only a wikilink remains. Everything will now be on the Kol Nidre page. JFW | T@lk 21:16, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Please revisit that section, JFW, because sometime between your edit in 2005 and Yom Kippur 2008, the text has been revised to be misleading again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.240.50.137 (talk) 00:44, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Big update

I have added some actual observances and their sources. More are to come. The page suffered from JewishEncyclopedia syndrome and I hope this redresses the balance somewhat. JFW | T@lk 21:16, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Azazel

Under The Temple Service there is discussion of the meaning of Azazel without any link. This discussion is a small subset of that which appears under Azazel. My preference would be to rip most of it out and rely on the link, but this seemed like a drastic enough change to warrent discussion. Heptazane (talk · contribs)

Well, the link should be there. It is the subject of much speculation, but this page should contain only a passing mention of the whole thing. JFW | T@lk 01:15, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Significance

The "Significance" sidebar says, "... and for the Golden calf". Should this be explained in the body?

This certainly should. It is important for the context of the day. This is the day where the second set of tablets were presented to the people at Sinai and our sins during the presentation of the first ones (17th of Tammuz, Golden Calf) were finally expiated, hence, Day of Atonement. This is vital to understanding the original point of the holiday.Valley2city 05:44, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] remove date section

I have removed the section "date" as it was redundent with the infobox. The average reader would know that a date on the hebrew calander will change every year on the english calander and does not need to be stated. The holiday infobox display the gregorian date and will automaticly change every year. I think that is enough. Jon513 11:36, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] When is Yom Kippur?

It's amazing to me that this article doesn't answer this obvious question in terms comprehensible to English-language readers. I don't know the answer, but surely someone does, and can add it.Timothy Usher 10:53, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

In the infobox: "Gregorian Date (2006) October 2". -- Jeandré, 2006-08-04t18:47z

[edit] External link: Ritualwell.org

This site is neither commercial nor personal. It is owned by the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College, which is on a par with the Jewish Theological Seminary and Hebrew Union College/Jewish Institute of Religion. Linking to this site is of the same nature as linking to the external links extant for the entry. Funganny July 27, 2006

Wikipedia has a very strict policy regarding placing external links on a page. See Wikipedia:External links to read about these guidelines. If you still think that link belongs after reading the page, explain here why. Jon513 09:09, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
This page is not a good example of what I wish to reference, since it has few external links. Better examples are Sukkot and Pesach. For these holidays and numerous others, the external links which predominate reflect only one segment of Jewish traditions and practice.
Since Judaism doesn’t have a “central authority,” even within Orthodox Judaism, interpretations of law and resulting practices and traditions vary. In adding links to Ritualwell.org, I sought (a) to be respectful of what was written in the main article by not making changes or additions to allow for the other streams of Judaism and (b) to add an additional POV – that of women – since what is otherwise represented is almost exclusively male oriented.
It is worth noting that Ritualwell.org is pluralistic, including traditions ranging from Orthodox to “secular.” A case in point is the JOFA women’s seder, the O and F standing for Orthodox Feminist.
Thank you for your attention to this.
Funganny
There is no need to "respect" what has been written in the article and avoid making changes or additions. Wikipedia is a wiki that anyone can edit and we encourage everyone to be bold and make edits. That being said, you must also be careful to respect wikipedia polices, such as verifiabilty and netural point of view. Realize that to say that the orthodox perpective of Yom Kippur (or torah in general) is male oriented is strongly POV. Therefore to add a perpective of "women" (which women? - not orthodox women) would not make sence. Adding a perpective of reform or reconstructionist however would be welcome. Do not misrepesent Ritualwell. It does not represent traditions "ranging from orthodox to secular"; it represents traditions ranging from reform to secualar [1]. Which again, such perpectives are welcome as long as they are represented as such. If you are not sure if something is NPOV try this useful rule of thumb "An article is neutral if, after reading it, you cannot tell where the author's sympathies lie. An article is not neutral if, after reading it, you can tell where the author's sympathies lie". Jon513 17:54, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm not interested in nor qualified to reinvent the wheel. That's why I originally added links to ritualwell. I followed your link, above, but saw nothing there to support your statement. That was immaterial to the issue at hand, if not downright gratuitous. Funganny 7 August 2006

[edit] the most holy day?

I've heard equally strong arguments in favor of the Sabbath as being just as holy if not more holy than Yom Kippur. I'll wait a bit before being bold and changing the proclamation in the first paragraph.

Yom Kippur is The Sabbath of the year, anyway you look into it. Do not change the article. Michagal 16:11, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. I would like to debate the affirmation of Yom Kipur being the most Holy Day. This is in fact a common question often asked to jews in study groups (perhaps to challenge their own views of their religion) or to people that is on the path of convertion to Judaism: "What is the most holy/important/sacred day of the year?"

It is a common mistake to answer Yom Kippur. The most important day of the Jewish year IS INDEED the SHABBAT - so much that, if any holidays fall over the Shabbat, the laws of Shabbat observance MUST take priority. If you follow the logic (oy!) if Shabbat takes priority over Yom Kippur, Sukkot, Kol Nidrei, etc. it is therefore the holiest day of the year. Ask any Rabbi (I did) [2] --Pinnecco 12:53, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Shabbos is indeed higher on the scale than any other holiday. Moreover, there should be something in the Talmud (if not the Tanakh) about it. Therefore, rather than debating it without proof, finding a citation will solve the problem outright. MSJapan 00:26, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree - I will make sure I ask my Rabbi to where I can find written information about it so we can put an end to this discussion --Pinnecco 10:22, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I had the chance to speak with two Rabbis today (Erev Sukot) about this issue: One is Rabbi is from the Reform movement and the other if from the Modern Orthodox movement. Both Rabbis agreed that SHABBAT is indeed the holiest holyday of the Jewish calendar and NOT YOM KIPUR. One compeling argument to support this is that The 10 Commandments says to remmember and keep the Shabbat -- not remmember and keep the Yom Kippur, and Rabbis tend to consider this a very compeling argument. The statement should be ALTERED. --Pinnecco 00:14, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
For the record, one of the Rabbis I consulted is Rabbi Rodney Mariner from the Belsize Square Synagogue in London. He is also the head (Convernor) of the Beit Din for the Reform movement in Great Brittain (the one at the Sternberg Centre). The other Rabbi is from an Orthodox Synagogue close to Chalk Farm, his first name is Michael but I don't remember more because I just met him on a Erev Sukkot dinner. --Pinnecco 08:27, 18 October 2006 (UTC) Please note: I am the Orthodox rabbi quoted here. Pinnecco's comments are not an accurate description of what I said. Yom Kippur is a holier day than Shabbat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Micky105 (talk • contribs) 21:16, 1 September 2007

I think there is a basic consensus to CHANGE this statement as it is not encyclopedic or verifiable. To every single Rabbi I have talked to and to my own personal study, the Sabbath is more important and holier than Yom Kippur. I usually judge these things based on two criteria: the number of Aliyot and the penalty for violating them. Yom Kippur has 6 aliyot and the penalty is excisement from the Jewish People (or however you define kareit). Though this is both more Aliyot and penalty than any other festival, it is still less than Shabbat on both counts. Shabbat has 7 aliyot and the penalty is death. Yom Kippur is only around because of the Jewish people and they are the ones to sanctify it (hense the prayer order "King of the universe who sanctifies [Shabbat,] Israel and the Day of Atonement. Shabbat is the only holiday that happens because God Himself has sanctified it through Creation and exists even without the Jewish people. Shabbat happens every seventh day no matter what. Yom Kippur can conceivably be postponed by a day or so if the New Moon is not established. Michagal, to say that we should not change the article based on something you have decided is not sufficient. Wikipedia is a fluid and ever-changing enyclopedia and requires information to be verified. In addition people are allowed to change whatever they want and considering this overwhelming support, I think this merits a change. Valley2city 05:39, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

It's fairly common knowledge that while Yom Kippur is the most important of what are accepted as the 12 major "holidays" (see [3]), Shabbat is the holiest day of any week, and thus the year. Many Rabbis will even mention this fact during the Yom Kippur service so as to encourage weekly attendance. Given the consensus here, especially the fact that Pinnecco actually asked two diverse Rabbis about the issue, it's quite clear that the statement should be revised. I've gone ahead and done this, recasting it as "one of the most important days" rather than the single most important day. Dbratton 09:08, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I got into a very brief discussion about this, and apparently there is a rabbinic consensus that Hoshana Rabbah is the holiest day of the year. It's a little off-topic, but I had never heard this before. Does anyone know what the sources are on this? MSJapan 02:41, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Hoshanah Rabbah is judgment day for gentiles, and I believe that while it is sort of the end of the "High Holidays", Yom Kippur is considered the most holy day of the year. The Sabbath is the holiest of the days of the week. It is not the holiest day. Do not be confused. Yom Kippur is holier than the Sabbath, and it does take president over the Sabbath. For example, although one is not allowed to fast on the Sabbath, if the two coincide, we do not push of the fast of Yom Kippur and do fast on the Sabbath. End of story. HaravM 21:59, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm afraid this will actually be a teyku, that we don't have a definitive answer. If Yom Kippur falls on Shabbat, we do not say Avinu Malkeynu and we truncate selichot until Neilah, when Shabbat has technically ended. Penalties for violating Shabbos are more severe than penalties for violating Yom Kippur. Sages have been arguing this for millennia; I don't think we will come up with the conclusive answer. --Valley2city₪‽ 05:49, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Could we say something to the effect, "Although religious leaders generally agree that Shabbat is the most important Jewish holiday, in America many Jews only celebrate celebrate Yom Kikkur and no other holidays, raising its prominence." 216.90.172.158 19:55, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bicycles.

[Observances among secular Jews?]

“Yom Kippur there has the nickname ‘Festival of Bicycles.’” According to whom?

This is nonsense. Where is the reference for this absurd assertion?

--Lance6968 18:00, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I got the source for it and edited it in.

~~

I followed your link; it doesn't justify the quote. At best this is an obscure reference in Israel, but even admitting that much, is, as yet, unjustified.

The practices of secular Jews, I aver, has nothing to do with normative Judaism; that, by itself, raises a reasonable question of why this topic is even in the article.

I would suggest that an entire article on the practices of secular Jews, something quite separate and apart from Judaism, may be an interesting contribution.

--Lance6968 01:28, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a general encyclopedia, not an encyclopedia of Judaism, normative or otherwise. If the content meets notability and verifyability criteria it belongs. For better or for worse, Yom Kippur is the name of a national as well as a religious holiday in Israel. --Shirahadasha 05:59, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Question: why is this sentence in the Observances among Secular Jews section? "On Yom Kippur in 2006, many children in Israel were injured while cycling or skating – 95 of whom required medical attention from Magen David Adom crews." This is a current event that has no place in an encyclopedia.

130.64.80.155 17:29, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[Add a section] Should a section about the fact that many people consider this a non-official no transportation holiday and therefore many people go out with bicycles and such? Is this encyclopedic? Michaelas10 16:54, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

It's an interesting phenomenon, but it's already touched on in the Observances among secular Jews section:
In Israel, public non-observance (such as eating or driving a motor vehicle) is taboo. Yom Kippur there has the nickname "Festival of Bicycles," [1] referring to children's practice of freely riding their bicycles in the streets without motor vehicles presenting danger.
Any additional information (which should be limited, given the relative unimportance to the holiday in general) should be added there - an entire additional section is overkill. Dbratton 17:09, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I'll merge whenever I can. Michaelas10 18:11, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I've done merging. I left the verify tag on the merged section. Michaelas10 21:02, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Looks good to me. I removed the verify tag, as the addition is well-cited. Dbratton 09:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't actually think that is technically the case. It is true, at least according to an LA Times article I read a number of years ago, that extremely secular Jews in Israel ride their bikes in the empty streets on Yom Kippur. This probably owes to the fact that almost everyone, even the most unaffiliated "חילוני" Jews are in the Synagogue this one day in the year, and therefore the streets are deserted. I know this true of Jerusalem on any given sabbath, having walked in the middle of the road for many blocks walking to and from the synagogue and meals. As for it being a "a non-official no transportation holiday", Yom Kippur is the only holiday that has almost equal standing with the Sabbath in terms of its work restrictions (You can cook on all the other ימי טוב (Festivals) that fall on weekdays, but all of these traditionally carry prohibitions against riding. I am actually unaware of rules governing bicycles as opposed to things traditionally prohibited riding: animals and automobiles. Valley2city 19:41, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
As I saw it yesterday, the streets were completely filled with people with bicycles, a large part of them did go to the synagogue. I think this does worth a mention, at least a paragraph. I will write it whenever I'll have time. Michaelas10 17:41, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I've added the section. I've also added a verify tag to the section because I'm not completely sure of what I wrote as I wrote it from a lot of personal knowledge. Please verify the section using online resources and remove the tag. Michaelas10 18:47, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted a few changes done to the section recently:

  • 1. I think getting medical attention the Magen David Adom crews is important since it's different from getting medical attention generally, because getting medical attention from them is immediate and isn't done in the hospital.
  • 2. Ground human-powered transport vechicals shouldn't be replaced with human-powered transport vechicals as there are human-powered transport vechicals that work in the sky or in water.
  • 3. Don't replace Yom Kipur eve with Kol Nidre, Kol Nidre usually refers to the prayer.
  • 4. It gained popularity in all the Jewish communities in the recent decades, not only Israel.

Michaelas10 07:08, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Your reverts also re-inserted "vechical", which is not a word. It's "vehicle". As for MDA crews, were there any other medical services active, it being Yom Kippur? MSJapan 19:43, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I didn't note that change when I was reverting, sorry. I don't think there are any other medical services in Israel, well the provided news article didn't state any. Michaelas10 20:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
So, if there was no other option but to receive treatment from MDA, is it really noteworthy of inclusion? On further thought, if electric vehicles are prohibited, is it even noteworthy that people ride bikes and skateboards, considering that one has to get to shul somehow? The accident totals might be an intersting fact to add to the article, but I'm wondering if it deserves a separate section. MSJapan 20:44, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
It will be merged to an other section of the article, see the above comments. Michaelas10 20:48, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[Relevance of paragraph] I am just curious as the relevance of the following statement: "On Yom Kippur in 2006, many children in Israel were injured while cycling or skating – 95 of whom required medical attention from Magen David Adom crews." This seems completely irrelevant to the topic.

Naugahyde 21:33, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The use of the vacant roads by secular Israelis for riding bicycles is unquestionable, and its name as "Bicycle day" (יום האופניים) or "Bicycle Festival" (חג האופניים) is quite common terminology and not a mere "obscure reference in Israel". See search results [4] and [5] which include spelling variants. jnothman talk 10:05, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Rabbi Chaim Zimmerman, one of the greatest Rabbis of hiis generation, officially decided that the rules of riding a bicycle and of pushing a baby carriage are the same. Therefore, assuming deference to rules of Muktsa and Eruv, anyone may indeed ride a bicycle on Yom Kippur. Rebele | Talk The only way to win the game is to not play the game. 23:35, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Untane Tokef / Rabbi Amnon of Mainz

Does anyone agree that Untane Tokef and the legend of its authorship deserves a separate article? Anyway, as it is Erev Yom Kippur as I write this, Gmar Chatima Tova to all. If I have done anything to you or your articles to piss you off in the past year, I apologize. That's right; WikiTeshuva! Valley2city 19:30, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

It probably does. On a relate note, the quoted part needs to be sourced (which it is not), as it is a translation, and those can vary from Siddur to Siddur. MSJapan 00:21, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
See Unetanneh Tokef. Benqish (talk) 13:38, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Greeting.

Okay, for Christmas you say "Merry Christmas", for Easter "happy Easter". What do you say for Yom Kippur? --Midnighttonight remind to go do uni work! 02:33, 2 October 2006 (UTC) One answer: Have a good fast.68.41.169.186 16:40, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

"Chatimah Tovah" (May you be sealed for good). --Shirahadasha 02:22, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Sometimes rendered as "Gmar Chatima Tova". I don't really like "Have a good fast" or "Have an Easy Fast" (Hebrew: Tzom Kal). It's not supposed to be an easy fast! The whole point, according to the Torah, is "to afflict your souls". If one were to talk about the fast, my favorite is "have a meaningful fast". --Valley2city₪‽ 05:52, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Temple Service?

What are the references for "Service in Temple in Jerusalem?" It seems like an extrapolation from Leviticus, chapter 16 concerning the tent of meeting with some additions which may be conjectural.

The reference has been provided -- Talmud Tractate Yoma. It's in the reference section. Some of the elements (like the number of garment changes and ritual baths, what happens to the goat for Azazel, etc.) are not in Leviticus, and the service is in a slightly different order. This is very standard stuff. A summary of it is in every traditional prayer book. --Shirahadasha 02:13, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Remembering the Temple service

What is the reference for this statement: "...most Conservative synagogues, a detailed description of the Temple ritual is recited on the day, and the entire congregation prostrates themselves"(?) The last six words appear to be factually incorrect. Prostrate meaning "to fall down flat on the ground, face down." I have never witnessed this; has anyone? LarG 15:20, 2 October 2006 (UTC)LarG

Yes and no. There is one part of the service where the congregation has the option to fully genuflect to the floor by bowing fully forward to the floor from a kneeling position; the presence of seats often precludes this. I have seen it demonstrated and explained, but never done. MSJapan 00:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
This is regularly done in Orthodox synagogues. I did it this morning. It is also done in some traditionalist Conservative synagogues, but not most. "Postration" may be inexact languague, as MSJapan points out it involves falling to the knees with the forehead on the floor. --Shirahadasha 02:13, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

On reflection, I think this article could be re-done with a large emphasis on beliefs and religious practices; and (a smaller) area on historical beginnings. Presumably, cultural anthropologists would see the beginnings of this holiday in the sacrificial elements as mentioned in the Bible. While there may be historical underpinnings to Talmudic remembrances, it should not be presented as history, but belief.

The "according to the Talmud" covers the issue of how reliable the source is. Wikipedia's general approach to living religions has been to present the religion as the religionists see and describe it, then to present scholarly commentary on it. Judaism articles generally present Orthodox perspectives first, then Conservative/Reform/Reconstructionist perspectives. Articles on Christianity and Islam aren't run any differently. The Temple service is presented not because of modern thoughts about its origins but because of the contemporary role it plays in the religion. It's also commom to use religious sources present the religious perspective. The Temple looms large in Orthodox perspectives, although less so to not at all in other perspectives. --Shirahadasha 14:14, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps some "modern" philosophical flavors via Buber, Rosenzweig, or even Kaplan might be useful?

Feel free to add these, they would go in a section identifying whose perspectives they are as e.g. "Contemporary Reform (or Progressive Jewish or some such thing) Perspectives" It's entirely possible that the Orthodox view is over-represented at this point, feel free to add more information about the Reform or other views. Per WP:NPOV, there is no "Wikipedia" view. --Shirahadasha 14:24, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Anecdotally: while I was once told of the absolute devotion of Orthodox Jewry in Europe during the Yom Kippur service in the early 1900s; during fifty years of experience in Orthodox and Conservative congregations I have never witnessed any of the congregation prostrating themselves. If someone were to prostrate them self I'm sure an ambulance would be summoned. LarG 12:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)LarG

I know that in most Conservative synagogues only the Hazzan does this. I've never been in an Orthodox synagogue where there weren't a large number of people who did it, although my circles have been limited. It may be that this tradition is making something of a comeback. The custom certainly exists, although it appears there is a question of how widespread it is. --Shirahadasha 14:22, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

The practice is common in Orthodox and some Conservative congragations. Most people simply bow when the word "prostrate" is being recited.

[edit] Yom Kippur War

Is the advertisement for the Yom Kippur war at the top really necessary? I think most people who search for the yom kippur war write yom kippur war, not yom kippur. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Solid Reign (talk • contribs)

It is advisible to add such link, as many people aren't aware of the holiday. I can't fully explain to to you, but there are many such articles. Michaelas10 15:21, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree, it is important to that the Arab states chose that particular day because the Jews were all at the synagogue (but didn't realize that mobilization was so much quicker because they were all in one place) as well as what laws they abbrogated and which ones they didn't on that first day of defending the country. I say keep the links. Valley2city 21:34, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Christian belief

Someone removed the Christian belief section which has been there for quite some time. I thought this was wrong seeing as Jews and Christians also see this day as a day of significance. I don't think it should be removed. --76.5.10.238 19:13, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

It should have been removed because this is a Jewish article. You don't see any Jewish beliefs being posted in Christian articles. So why should Christian beliefs be posted in Jewish articles? I know that there are more Christians but give the Jews some space for atleast a few articles. The world doesn't revolve around Christianity and their beliefs. You think a Christian would care about Jewish beliefs? Hell No!

Dear unsigned editor, do not remove entire entries without first going through discussions here. Removing the entry first and then adding a discussion post is unacceptable. There is no "race"-only or "religion"-only articles. Since Judaism is the "root" of Christianity, it is conceivable that many doctrines, holy days, and religions match. Hence, it is noteworthy to have a minor blurb of the Christian beliefs. --Jbanning22 14:09, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

There is no problem of having a section on christian or islamic (or any other) beliefs in article about a Jewish topic. However we must be careful no to give undue weight to alternate view and not to invent a view where one doesn't really exist in order to create an illusion of "balance". Yom Kippur (and other mainly Jewish topics) should be (and mostly are) presented as a Jewish topic and present other views as less significant since they do not have nearly the same importance in other religions as they do in Judaism. When similar ideas exist in different religion with equal importance in both religion splitting the article into two (or three) different article is often a good solution. Jon513 10:44, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

The line "Most Christians do not regularly observe this holiday as they do not consider this day as part of the New Covenant" is not only reduntant, but quite comical. To the best of my knowledge the vast majority of Christians do not observe it at all. The word 'regularly' should be removed (IMHO) but I really think this whole sentence should be changed to simply focus on the minority who do see some significance in the day, or who commemorate it in some way. Commontater 08:32, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

done. In the future, feel free to change it yourself. Jon513 17:11, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
It's not that "Most Christians do not observe....", as though they somehow spitefully 'refuse' to observe it. It's rather that they are simply unaware of the festival or its significance, because it is just not a part of their religion. Obviously the founder of their religion probably observed it himself, but the only solemn 'fast' that (some) Christians observe is 'Lent' - the 40 days in the run-up to Easter / Pesach. I also found the "This is a Jewish article" comment rather an odd thing to say in an encyclopedia, and the "You think a Christian would care about Jewish beliefs? Hell No!" comment downright insulting. I am not Jewish myself, but I clicked on the article to find out why my work colleague and friend (an otherwise very secular Jew) was making a point of taking his wife and children to the Synagogue tomorrow when he never otherwise even mentions his faith. Most Christians obviously do not observe Jewish festivals (they have their own) but they conversely have no reason to disrespect them either. 160.84.253.241 08:24, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Haftorah Yona

I didn't see any reference to the Haftorah in the afternoon (Mincha) of Yom Kippur, which is the entire book of Yonah. This is an integral part of the Orthodox (at least) service, and there is a lot of discussion about the relationship between Yonah, repentance and Yom Kippur. I'm not suggesting an article about the book of Yonah here, but to show the close connection to Yom Kippur there should be a link to an external article about it. Commontater 08:55, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

done. Jon513 17:08, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edits

Hi! I reverted a substantial rewrite by User:David Adam Lewis because the rewrite, although adding a lot of useful material, also deleted a substantial amount of existing sourced material without discussion. I would urge users not to undertake complete rewrites of long-standing articles without discussion and collaboration with other users. Best, --Shirahadasha 00:36, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tallit: Actually worn for two evening services

The article says: "They also wear a tallis, the only evening service of the year in which this is done."

The most common practice in orthodox synagogues is to wear the tallit right through the day of Yom Kippur, and only remove it after the evening service following the end of Yom Kippur. The tallit is thus worn for two evening services. Jfrankmortimer 03:43, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi! The "evening" service refers to maariv, not just any service that happens to occur in the "evening" as determined from a secular point of view. Perhaps this could be clarified. Best, --Shirahadasha 08:44, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

To clarify what I wrote, there are two Maariv services during which a tallit is worn; Tishri 10 (Kol Nidre + Maariv of Yom Kippur) and Tishri 11 (weekday Maariv).

Also I suggest the more conventional transliteration "tallit" and maybe link the word to the page on the subject "Tallit". Jfrankmortimer 21:07, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

In my circles it's customary for men to remove their talit between the end of neillah and the beginning of maariv. I suppose some forget and keep it on, still, their wearing a talit in this way isn't customarily regarded as having religious significance, while the talit worn for kol nidre is a religious custom that is regarded as having religious meaning and significance. Perhaps the article could clarify that this is done as a religous custom. Best, --Shirahadasha 21:54, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I was told that one should follow Yom Kippur with a mitzvah. Therefore maariv is recited immediately without even stopping to take the tallit off, fold it, etc. Rebele | Talk The only way to win the game is to not play the game. 08:55, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Observances among secular Jews

Would there be any objection to changing this title to "practices of secular Jews" and moving it to a level-2 subheader given that most of the material added describes practices that secular Jews do on Yom Kippur, but provides no evidence that these practices are observances of the holiday as distinct from things people do on their days off. For example, the Christmas article might report that many Jews go to movies on Christmas (because most other businesses are closed), but would it be accurate or neutral for that article to report as unattributed fact that these practices represent "observances" of Christmas among Jews? Same here. I don't think the things people do because they are bored or inconvenienced by other people's holidays represent "observances" of those holidays. --Shirahadasha 18:08, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

It might be a matter of terminology. When many people do a particular activity on a particular day, it's sort of a tradition for them.--Nitsansh 22:29, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Changes to, comments on Article - Oct 9, 2007

I've made the following changes:

  • tightened up the language in the lead paragraph and moved some things that seem to be details further down in the article. As I read the recent reversion of User:David Adam Lewis, there is a consensus that this article is first and foremost about "What is Yom Kippur" and only secondarily about the sources that have help defined the meaning.
  • I've added a stub "Religious themes" section where we can explore the philosophical, ethical, psychological and theological themes associated with Yom Kippur. It seems a little strange that this section is missing considering the tremendous importance of this holiday to the moral and spiritual development of Jews.
  • I've consolidated and retitled some sections so that additional material on biblical and talmudic sources for the holiday will have a natural home in this article.
    • The biblical section is missing any discussion of prominent literary themes. For example there appears to be a literary tradition of the child offered up and the child driven away that echoes the two goats of the Yom Kippur (Issac/Ishmael, Esau/Jacob, Benjamin/Joseph, ...) - if anyone has source material at hand discussing that theme I'd love to see it added...
    • There is some material I labeled as Midrashic - however the material is unsourced and I don't know whether these can actually be found in Midrashic literature or if they actually come from either Targum or Medieval commentaries. If anyone knows, please fill this in and change the section title if necessary.
    • At the moment the mishnaic/talmud section only contains a description of the Temple Service. Are there other sources that should be included?
  • Temple Service - I wonder if this should be moved to a sub-article? The article is already over 31K and this section is quite extensive and detailed.
  • I added a stub section for "Halachic requirements" and moved a sentence formerly embedded in the description of the Temple service to that section. I'm OK if someone wants to merge it into the Observances section. I just wasn't comfortable with halakhic statements being made in a "by the way" manner and buried in a long complicated section covering the details of the temple service. Halakhic requirements are too important to the Jewish perspective and should be handled in a section that allows them (and their sources) to be discussed.
  • I've corrected some information about Progressive Jewish Yom Kippur customs.

Egfrank 14:48, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Religious themes

To editor--My non-Jewish colleagues looked up Yom Kippur on wikipedia and asked me about what they read. So I read the Yom Kippur page and was hugely disappointed.

How can the religious themes section--THE MOST important section on the page--only have two sentences? Only already observant and engaged people who are already in the know care about the details of the service and halachic regulations involved. You're only discussing BEHAVIOR and not THEOLOGY and PHILOSOPHY. In my view this page is an embarrassment to our brilliant religion.

Would you please take the time to elaborate on this section--I personally think it should be FIRST--and the details of the service should be fleshed out to explain its very meaningful symbolism and relevance to the modern person. My goodness, any non-Jew (or Jew who doesn't know better) reading this page would think that American Jews are spending the day praying for sacrifices and the Temple back! Wikipedia should be educational, and this page does not educate anyone about this holiday and WHY we observe it. The HOW on the observance is irrelevant and blasphemous if the WHY isn't there. (and "because HaShem said" is just the p'shat, of course).

There are great writings out there about the meaning of Yom Kippur. READ a little and broaden your chagim next year and hopefully that of anyone looking to wikipedia to find out more about it. In the scholarly Jewish world, religious life does extend outside the narrow viewpoint of halachic existence, as beautiful as that world is.

Thanks--from an observant AND THINKING Jew who finds this entire article hopelessly inane. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mattshira (talk • contribs) 18 October 2007

[edit] "Yore" Kippur

After seeing it used in an old speech by Bill Clinton, I searched Google on "Yore Kippur" and found a small number of uses from seemingly reliable sources, but I could find no explanation. Anyone? --Tysto 17:28, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

It is a non-notable typo. It is 100% completely wrong, and is not a accurate transliteration of the Hebrew. Jon513 18:10, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Yom Kippur in Islamic Tradition

This section has been revised, there was too much confusion with 10 Muharram, Ashura, Passover, Yom Kippur, that I had to clean it up and summarize it as the day is about the Judaic tradition and Muslims observing this, instead of the Sunni/Shia debate. Since the dates are lost due to calendar nonuniformity, I suggested the difference in opinions. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.248.216.105 (talk) 04:15, 10 January 2008 (UTC)


In Islamic tradition, the day of Ashura is celebrated as the 10th of Muharram according to pure lunar calender. As a result it does not coincide with Jewish celebration. This much is clearly replicated in the article. But as per Muhammad(s.a.w)'s tradition, "We are closer to Musa than you are", we follow his tradition of fasting not just 1 day, but 2 consecutive days (ie. 9,10 or 10,11 Muharram). This is an important distinction, that should be mentioned in this section. Atif.hussain (talk) 04:07, 22 February 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Law in Israel

As far as I know (and I am an Israeli lawyer), Israeli law does not forbid radio or television broadcasts on Yom Kippur and there are no state-enforced restrictions for this day. I have edited accordingly. Benqish (talk) 13:33, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Non-observance

Both the lead and the section "Secular Jews" imply, without reference, that most secular Jews fast on Yom Kippur. A source should be provided (if, in fact, this is true. Otherwise it should be changed) Jd2718 (talk) 03:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

The lead most definitely does not imply that, as nowhere in the lead is the word "secular" even there. As for the later section titled as such, that does not a source. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 04:42, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
The lead uses the word traditionally in a very open way. I think most would read that to mean most Jews, or all Jews. As to the latter section, I think you left something out of this: As for the later section titled as such, that does not a source. Could you clarify? Jd2718 (talk) 05:02, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
I still think there is nothing wrong with the opening section. I think that you really need to specify that you are talking about "secular" Jews if you mean that. How many articles on Jewish practices and beliefs have to go out of their way to say "but not the secular ones"? Or to secular members of any other religious affiliated group? Oh, for the latter section, I meant to say "that does need a source." I blame it on low blood sugar from fasting... --OuroborosCobra (talk) 05:09, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Ok, we'll see what others chime in with in regard to the lead. For the latter section, I may try a weasely reword, waiting for a source, if one comes. I am doubtful one will. (but better slightly weasely than a citation needed tag...) Jd2718 (talk) 05:17, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "equivalent" Christian holy day

Somebody remarked that the "equivalent" Christian day would be Lent because that is when (some) Christians fast. But isn't the fundamental idea the atonement, not the fast? You could then say that the Catholic equivalent is the rite of confession, and there is no precise Protestant equivalent. (I am a gentile and I may be interpreting this wrong) CharlesTheBold (talk) 03:21, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I would generally say that the Catholic confession is far more like Yom Kippur than Lent, but then I'm not a gentile so my knowledge on Lent is fairly limited. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 04:21, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
A statement of this sort needs a source and needs to be attributed to a particular scholar. Jon513 (talk) 08:19, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
There is an interesting article here from L'Osservatore Romano which discusses the question. Knowing that Pessah is already the equivalent to Easter, I would presume that Corpus Christi or the feast of the Cross might constitute a sort of equivalent to Yom Kippur. [6] ADM (talk) 21:24, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Wouldn't the confessional or even the Crucifixion itself be the logical equivalent in Christianity? — Rickyrab | Talk 05:52, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Contemporary scholarship

Reasons for moving the "Contemporary scholarship" section down: The Yom Kippur#Contemporary scholarship section is only a modern-day critique and theoretical dichotomy of the holiday. It is not the classical historical, theological or Biblical source of the holiday that was observed by Jews as a result of commandments in the Hebrew Bible. Had the Jews thought that the veracity of the various secular Bible critics and most Biblical scholars at universities had any truth to them, then obviously there would not have been a Yom Kippur observed as it's known for the last 2000 years and prior to that as it was observed and practiced in the era of the two Temples. Therefore it is logical that the actual observances of the holiday and the many classical primary sources that it is derived from and its comprehensive liturgy and commentaries need to be described and explained first and foremost from as many of the primary Judaic sources (this is a Jewish holiday we are talking about!), and only much later on in the article can there be a section of what a group of latter-day secular academics decided to say thousands of years later based of their points of view. IZAK (talk) 09:06, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Ok, and this should be done for holidays in other religions as well: traditional observances and history should go first from the religion's followers' pov, and then the secular scholars' pov. As for the veracity of secular scholars and their effect on Yom Kippur's observance, look at how nontraditional Jews observe the holiday (modified fasts, bicycling, other activities that recognize Yom Kippur but which traditionalists frown upon or ban). — Rickyrab | Talk 05:49, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Significance of Shofar

A persons slavery or servitude normally ends on the last day of the year. However, the period between Rosh HaShana and Yom Kippur is a mandatory transition time where the person need not work, but the master must still provide for their needs. The person is not free to go until the sounding of the shofar which "proclaims liberty throughout the land." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rebele (talk • contribs) 09:41, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

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