Panoramic Medium Format Cameras

Plaubel Makina III 6x9cm Camera

Panoramic Medium Format Cameras
by Robert Monaghan

Related Links:
6x12/4x5 Ultrawide for a Little Less Money by Bob Hutchinson [02/00]
Apple Quicktime VR Mailing List
Camera for Conical Peripheral and Panoramic Photography By Andrew Davidhazy (RIT)
CCD Signal to Noise Calculator
Cirkut FAQ [3/2002]
Converting Panoramas to circular Images and vice Versa (w/o computer) by Jeffrey Charles
Correcting Lens Distortion Tutorials (Panoramic Tools)
Digital Scanner Camera by Andrew Davidhazy (RIT)
Free Panoramic Software by H. Dersch
Globuscope 360 deg Camera
Handheld Scanner to Digital Back or Camera (RIT)
Hasselblad Homebrew 35mm Panoramic Back Conversion [04/00]
Homebrew Panoramics...
Homemade Panoramic 6x17cm Rollfilm and View Camera (Doug Bardell) [12/2000]
Horizon 202 pages (Marco Pauck)
Horseman 612 Review (luminous landscape) [11/2002]
IAPP Panoramic Society Pages
Larscan Panoramic Camera Homebrew pages
Mamiya 4x5/6x12 Ultrawide Homebrew by Bob Hutchinson
Nikon 990 Infrared Panoramics [3/2001]
Omni directional (mirror) camera
OmniDirectional Rendering
One shot stereo VR camera
Panoguide Site (intro..)
Panoramic 6x12 Homebrew Cameras
Panoramic Lubitel - using 35mm on 120 spools (RIT)
Panoramic Net
Panoramic Photography with Digital cameras
Panoramic Stereo Vision Cameras Analsis
PanStore- Panoramic Cameras
Rollout (Strip) Cameras [8/2002]
Smoothmove Panoramics from Infinite Pictures Inc.
Spheron 360 Digital VR camera [1/2001]
Spinscape 360 Degree Pan Digicam [10/2002]
Stan Patz's Nifty 6x16cm Panoramic Camera [6/2001]
Stitching with RealViz Easier.. [11/2002]
Virtual Tripod for Panoramics (6/2000) plumbline and bubble and ..
Wide Angle (fisheye/panoramic) perspective by H. Dersch
WTO disaster site panoramics by Simon Nathan
WWW Panoramic World

Disposable 17mm Panoramic Camera from Konica (35mm)

Konica is marketing a throwaway (single use) camera with a 17mm lens for 35mm (24x36mm) use, called "film-in superwide". Hold at arm's length, facing you, and you can get torso portrait shots of yourself and 2 friends! 27 exp of Centuria 800 ISO film. USA introduction date is not set yet. How about a really cheap 17mm lens for circular MF superwide projects on 4x4cm?...

Source: From Popular Photography and Imaging January 2003, p. 43.

Q: Describe Panoramic MF cameras
Panoramic MF cameras usually refer to cameras beyond the 6x9cm format, particularly 6x12cm and especially 6x17cm.
Panoramic cameras are special purpose cameras, usually with a dedicated wide angle lens often adapted from view camera mountings (e.g., Angulon). You also need special slide projectors and enlargers (usually 4''x5'' or even 5''x7'' enlargers) to handle this special format.
Fuji makes some current panoramic cameras under the 6x17cm PANORAMA GX617 model. The Horseman superwide 612 is another current panoramic MF camera in the 6x12cm format.
A variety of historically interesting panoramic cameras were also produced. Some of the panoramic cameras used obsolete film, but might be resurrected using 120 film and adapters. Other cameras used rotating lenses and curved film planes to provide the desired effect. As with similar 35mm panoramic cameras (e.g., F7 Widelux), these cameras are rare and usually pricey collector's items.
For more information, see the International Society of Panoramic Photographers home pages.

Q: What about custom made panoramic MF cameras?
A few individuals have handcrafted panoramic cameras, usually starting with view camera wide angle lenses. Since these lenses are usually quite expensive in an appropriate leaf shutter mount, the resulting camera is often at least half the cost of a new commercial design.
May I suggest an possible alternative? Recall that 4''x5'' and 5''x7'' enlargers were used to print panoramic images? Why not just cut down a 4''x5'' view camera image to the desired panoramic format? Look at the older, wide angle view camera lenses too. For example, an uncoated Angulon lens may be a fourth the cost of a current super-Angulon wide angle version. While you can buy custom backs to use roll-film in the desired format, it may be much cheaper to just use standard sheet film holders instead. A view camera may give you extra flexibility in movements and closeup work while expanding your photographic horizons. Finally, you can buy a used view camera for as little as $150 US and up.

Lusting after 6x17cm Formats?

the 6x17cm format is best reserved for impressing clients with huge original transparencies,
or for those rare individuals whose personal vision requires them to work in this way
Roger Hicks and Frances Schultz in the Medium and Large Format Photography book, p. 49

Hot Tip

Hot Tip for Panoramic MFers:
Some classic folders used panoramic formats up to 6x12cm and beyond, unfortunately with discontinued films. A related article describes how to use easy to build adapters to recycle these panoramic folders for use with regular 120 film. For budget MFers seeking a panoramic option, this creates a little-known but very exciting option to do panoramic photography with a very compact and low cost MF camera. Naturally, less popular models or poorer condition may result in much lower prices, while collectible folders will sell for a premium.

Notes:

Widelux F7 Lens Data

Widelux F7 26mm f/2.8 Lux

f/stops center edge

2.8 58 33

4 65 36

5.6 82 41

8 73 41

11 73 58

Modern Photography, March 1977, p.99

See the article for more review information and lens testing standards information. This lens (s/n 465348) was tested at 1:130X, producing 23.9mm x 58.5mm images with just 1% tracking distortion. Cost was $675 in 1977, about what they sell for used today ;-)

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: Barry Norman barry@codrington.demon.co.uk
[1] homemade panoramic from Nimslo/Mamiya bits
Date: Tue Apr 14 1998
I have built a panoramic camera as described in "Meehans" book on the subject of panoramic photography.
It is made from a Nimslo "3D" camera body with a 55mm Mamiya TLR lens grafted on to the front.
I have a problem with a small area of underexposure to one side of the image recorded.
Given the popularity of Meehans book I feel it is likely that other people must have used my combination of hardware to build a panoramic camera. I would like to swap ideas with anyone who has done this.
This is my first attempt at submitting to newsgroups so I hope I have not done anything too wrong.
--
Barry Norman

rec.photo.equipment.large-format
From: jamiehy@aol.com (Jamie H Y)
[1] Re: Panoramics on my 4x5?
Date: Sat Apr 25 1998
the following web site has a bit on the v-pan camera as well as other pan cameras. http://members.aol.com/panstore/page11.html
Another site with lots of pan stuff is http://panoramic.net/wwworld/
I have heard of a gov. surplus back called a tornado back that people adapt that does 6x17 but don't know much about it- Jamie

rec.photo.equipment.large-format
From: luvantique@aol.com (LuvAntique)
[1] Re: Panoramics on my 4x5?
Date: Sun Apr 26 1998
The simplest and cheapest way to get any proportion panoramic you want on any 4x5 is to select an appropriate focal length lens for the image you want, and print a strip out of the center of the 4x5 negative. Why go to the extraordinary expense of special backs when you have the whole capability already in hand? Sheet film costs more than rollfilm, but you can buy an enormous amount of film for what that back will cost, and have better process controls as well.
Michael Cleveland

rec.photo.equipment.large-format
From: evphoto@insync.net
[1] Re: Panoramics on my 4x5?
Date: Sun Apr 26 1998

Ralph Paonessa paonessa@sprynet.com wrote: > > I'd like to shoot panoramics on my 4x5 Arca-Swiss F-line. One option is > the Horseman 6x12 back, but I'd like something more like 6x17. > Does anyone know what the V-Pan camera is? Are there other options for > 6x17 on a view camera? > Thanks > Ralph >

Hi Ralph
The V-pan is a 6x7cm view camera designed and made by Chet Hanchett in St. Lou is, MO. It uses only 120 film (4 exposures per roll) and has full movements on t he front standard and none on the rear. The lens mounting is via Technika lens b oards. You can get it with various rail length combinations and bellows (wide an gle, normal, extra long.) You can buy the magazine seperately, but you guessed it, you'll need a specially modified ground glass/ rear standard assembly as the film plane is at the back of the magazine. I think the last time I actually talk ed to Chet he was working on that modified Arca you saw. Chet's E-mail address i s fotoqtvr@i1.net. Dennis Hill at TheHillGroup@home.com recently listed a V-pan for sale, but ask him if it is the one one he was having film troubles with. If you decide to get a V-pan, e-mail me for some tips. The camera is, uh, slightly idiosyncratic as compared to the Arca Swiss.
>Go long and wide,
Ellis

rec.photo.equipment.large-format
From: "Richard Davis" DrDagor@worldnet.att.net
[1] Re: Panoramics on my 4x5?
Date: Mon Apr 27 1998
Yes--you can do panorama with a view camera, and there are lots of advantages. Unlike a $5000 Fuji or Linhoff, you actually can get MOVEMENTS! What a concept.
But... You are really talking about a 5x7 camera, and not a 4x5, because 17mm is just under 7 inches (17.78mm more or less). So most people start out with 5x7 backs. Since most of the rail makers like Sinar, Linhoff, et. al. make 5x7 backs and bellows and all that stuff, 5x7 works fine. In fact, a stupidly simple panoramic camera can be achieved by using 5x7 sheet film and a paper cutter.
But I too understand the appeal of roll film. There are about ten times as many roll films available as sheet films--especially in 5x7.
There are several small outfits making conversion backs. One common technique is to take a 6x9 back (you can use an old "folder", and adding a middle section to get it the right length. This takes some screwing around, and maybe a machinist. Have fun.

From: Ralph Paonessa paonessa@sprynet.com
[1] Re: Panoramics on my 4x5?
Date: Fri May 01 1998

LuvAntique wrote: > But why the mind set on 7 inches? It's only 40 percent longer, so in either > case, a contact print is not going to be very satisfactory, and the final > image is determined by the angle of coverage of the lens and the HEIGHT of the > strip used out of the negative, regardless of the negative size. A 4x5 > negative gives you all of the advantages of any larger format, without the > size, and the final negative is adequately large for just about any but room > size enlargement (and even that, with some care). Why is everyone fixated on > 1) unnecessary fancy gadgets, and 2) "that" size, just because someone else has > built a 1) fancy gadget that uses it? Makes no sense to me. What can you not > do with a 4x5 camera and a 90mm or 65mm Super Angulon that you can do on 5x7 > with much more expensive film, optics, and bodies? It's the proportions > you're after, and the proportions of the 6x170 format can be duplicated in > printing, from a perfectly adequate 5 inch negative at significantly lower > cost. Makes more sense to me to keep it simple and cheap.

I agree with you, except for one point: As I've looked into this, it appears that "the" standard format for panoramic commercial stock photography is 6x17 cm, a market I'd like to enter. Otherwise, for personal use, cropping a 4x5 seems perfectly reasonable.
Unfortunately, the equipment to get to 6x17 on a view camera seems fairly expensive. You could generate 6x17 images by cropping 5x7 originals. I'm startin g with a 4x5 Arca-Swiss F-line, and I've discovered that the modular 5x7 conversio n kit (bellows, back standard, film holder, ground glass) is about $2500 -- more than I paid for the camera!
Ralph
--
Ralph Paonessa Photography paonessa@sprynet.com Locust Grove, VA

rec.photo.equipment.large-format
From: Burkhardt Kiegeland bkiegeland@lotusrecord.co.at
[1] Re: 6x17cm. What is Your Opinion?
Date: Wed May 06 1998
rec.photo.equipment.large-format, Bernd Saegmueller writes:

>Hi, > >I got the taste of a somehow panorama scene using a >Technikardan with 65mm lenses on 9x12cm >film. Now, what I am thinking of is a model from Linhof, a >6x17cm Panorama Camera. >My Questions are: > >1) What Do You think on the format? >2) What Cameras do You use if You do the format? >3) What do You think on the mentioned model of Linhof? > > >Or is this somehow just exotic, and a sink for money? > >Regards, Bernd > > >saege@pctc.chemie.uni-erlangen.de

I own a Linhof Technorama 617 and did use it quite frequently for a while. Camera is very usable even without tripod after I added an additional level for horizontal axis which can be controlled trough viewfinder too.
As the size for my taste is to small for just contactprinting I do enlarging using my 8x10" enlarger.
Working with 6x17 I feel as good exercise in expanding one+s horizon. Meanwhile I changed to panoramic sheetfilm sizes 8x20" and 12x20". That+s even far more fun...
Burkhardt Kiegeland

rec.photo.equipment.large-format
From: "Richard Davis" DrDagor@worldnet.att.net
[1] Re: 6x17cm. Here is my two cents.
Date: Thu May 07 1998
1. Here are the quick pro's and con's of 6x17. The format is for 120 roll film, and was the size you got when you decide to shoot four pictures per roll. It just happens that 17cm is really close to 7" (17.75 cm), which is a traditional film format going back to plate days. So it sort of cropped up (so to speak). If you like high aspect ratio landscape pictures, 6x17 is great. It is also sort of like a modern banquet camera. And because there are many more films available in 6x17 than there are in 5"x7", it is worth the effort and expense.
2. The good news about the Linhof 6x17 is that it is a beautiful camera and works great. But so does the Fuji 6x17 for lots less money. And of course there is the Noblex. But there is another alternative--and that is to put a 6x17 back on a field camera or rail. This was discussed in this notes file about two weeks ago. The big issue with both the Linhof and the Fuji is that they don't have any movement. That's fine for banquets, but it is absolutely NOT fine for landscape or architectural. Changing lenses is either a bear or impossible. Before I went an plunked down 5 large for an extremely wide camera built like a swiss watch but with no movements and very restricted lens options, I would look at the alternative of a 6x17 back on a 5x7 camera. (Actually on a 4x5 camera with a bag bellows and 5x7 rear standard.)

rec.photo.equipment.large-format
From: evphoto@insync.net
[2] Re: 6x17cm. Here is my two cents.
Date: Sun May 10 1998

Dear String, my opinion of the 6x17 is informed by about six years of shooting it with two different cameras, neither of which unfortunately was the Linhof in either configuaration. I have shot extensively with the old style Fuji (G617) and the V-pan. Philosophically, shooting the 6x17 is very different than cropping an approx 1:3 ratio image out of a 4x5 or even from a 5x7, composing is way different, your images really have to flow across the frame to be successful. Small differences in framing can make a huge difference. In this respect being able to have vertical shift capabilities becomes vital. And if you shoot cityscapes or architecture you will want to be be able to shift, even with an extreme lens like the 72mmXL. (Bob, it's funny that a product distributed by HP uses lenses by a competitor.) The drawback of the V-pan is that it is a view camera, and an eccentric one at that. The straitforwardness of the Fuji and Linhof designs is a plus if you are working really fast.
Those are my two cents. Ellis Vener Ellis Vener Photography evphoto@insync.net

rec.photo.equipment.large-format
From: "shooter dan" shooter@brigham.net
[1] Re: 6x17cm. What is Your Opinion?
Date: Sun May 10 1998

>6x17cm Panorama Camera. >>1) What Do You think on the format? >2) What Cameras do You use if You do the format? >3) What do You think on the mentioned model of Linhof?

If you like the format, what anyone else thinks of it doesn't matter. A lower cost alternative to the Linhof is a 5x7 view camera and crop the negs, or make an extra custom darkslide for the film holder and after composing on either the top or bottom half of the long side of the film, use it to expose only that portion that gives the panoramic view, then reverse it for the other shot.

From: "Richard Davis" DrDagor@worldnet.att.net
[1] Re: 6x17cm. What is Your Opinion?
Date: Tue May 12 1998
Dan. I love playing with 5x7 the way you talk about it, but there is another issue.. See the discussion with Bob S. below. I shoot 5x7 a lot, and have done half frame cropping for a 2 1/2 x 7 many times. But the main issue for me is film selection. Many films are not available in 5x7.
In B&W; this isn't much of a problem, but in color it is serious. Even when you can get the film, finding a lab to do the 5x7 is a challenge. (Not to mention that 5x7 in your own darkroom with dunk tanks or even a Jobo and the 5x7 drum is far from simple.)
And the cost of 5x7 E-6 or C-41 processing is beyond stratospheric. The great thing about 6x17 is you can drop of a couple of rolls of Velvia at the local lab with big DO NOT CUT! signs pasted all over the roll and pick up the stuff a couple of hour later.

rec.photo.equipment.large-format
From: Kerry Thalmann K.Thalmann@worldnet.att.net
[1] Re: 6x17cm. Here is my two cents.
Date: Tue May 12 1998
Both the V-Pan and the old US Navy Torpedo camera film magazines can be adapted to use on a 5x7 field camera. Art Pan makes a 6x17 back that mounts directly on any 4x5 camera with a Grafloc style back, but it only works with lenses from 90mm - 180mm due to mecahnical vignetting.
I have a "home made" 6x17 point and shoot I made from an old US Navy Torpedo camera and back mated with a 120mm Super Symmar HM lens and a masked down viewfinder off an old 5x7 Linhof Techika. Not as elegant as the current models from Linhof or Fuji, but functional and a very, very small fraction of the price. The US Navy Torpedo Backs are very primitve (no darkslides and no frame counter come with the back), so you must either make modifications or live with the limitations. Still, they are very inexpensive (usually less than $400 when you can find them). They do have full length spring loaded pressure plates to keep the film flat, so the results can be excellent.
I know a few people who have had these backs, or V-Pan backs adapted to 5x7 field cameras. I have also seen others who have had a custom 6x17 shaped bellows made and just mounted the back on a monorail with the original cameras front standard. Lots of options for the finacially challenged, but creative would-be panoramist.
Kerry
--
Kerry L. Thalmann Large Format Images of Nature
A Few of My Images Online at: http://home.att.net/~k.thalmann/

rec.photo.equipment.large-format
From: nstrand@hal136.ch.intel.com (Norman Strand~)
[1] Re: 6x17cm. What is Your Opinion?
Date: Tue May 12 1998
I know this is not the answer you are looking for but I have taken photographs with a 65mm Super Angulon on a 4x5 camera, then had the print made 16x20 then trimed the uninteresting parts off with a paper cutter to make a 8x20 print. This method is alot cheaper than the panoramic cameras and gives a sort of simular result.
Norman Strand

From: "Bob Salomon" bobsalomon@mindspring.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: any 6 X 12 users?
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998
Organization: HP Marketing Corp.
Please be aware when talking about 612 the sizes vary considerably.
Linhof's 612 camera and Techno Rolex film backs have a 56 x 120mm picture area.
The others from Horseman, Sinar, Calumet, etc are much smaller. About 56 x 111 to 112mm.
This can be quite different in effect. You can see the difference in print by looking at the comparison shots in Joe Meehan's Panorama book.
Bob

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: w.j.markerink@a1.nl (Willem-Jan Markerink)
[1] Noblexian ponderings
Date: Thu Jul 09 1998
Well, not so much Noblex-specific, but medium-format panorama nontheless:
Which companies make vertical contact sheets, three collumn wide? That's the only way to get the 6 images of 6x12cm into one single A4 sheet....the 25cm of two images is too wide to fit horizontally on A4, and 6 seperate ones don't fit below eachother either....so only vertical is possible, three collumns, two images each.
Thus far I have found only one company that makes these sheets, both clear (for contacts) and translucent (for slides), Panodia in France.
But this can't be the only manufacturer....actually I *hope* it is not the only one, since the Dutch distributor charges US$10 for 10 sheets....that's no good for a Dutchman....;-((
Soooo....what are my alternatives for vertical roll film contact sheets?
Many thanks in advance!
(my first rolls are still waiting to be developed....won't hand them to my lab before they have the right format sheet....)
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: glosdl@email.uc.edu (David L. Glos)
[1] Re: Noblexian ponderings
Date: Thu Jul 09 1998
I use a contacting sheet from Print File (120-3B). I think they are like $40 US per 100. Works great for my 645 and 66 stuff. Contacts fit nice on a normal 8x10 sheet too. Don't know what I will do if I eventually buy a new Pentax 645N, which has 16 shots per roll.....I guess buy the 4X horizontal sheets for that one and the 3X vertical sheets for the rest of my stuff.

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: "Michael Liczbanski" mliczbanski@email.msn.com
[1] Re: Noblexian ponderings
Date: Thu Jul 09 1998

Why not using a roll of negative sleeves and just cut it to size? This way you can keep as many negatives in one strip as you wish (there are storage boxes available in a variety of sizes.) As a side benefit, you may find it easier to cut out (and dispose of) bad negatives [grins]
Michael

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: w.j.markerink@a1.nl (Willem-Jan Markerink)
[1] Re: Noblexian ponderings
Date: Sat Jul 11 1998

"Michael Liczbanski" mliczbanski@email.msn.com wrote: >Why not using a roll of negative sleeves and just cut it to size? Thisway >you can keep as many negatives in one strip as you wish (there are storage >boxes available in a variety of sizes.) >As a side benefit, you may find it easier to cut out (and dispose of) bad >negatives (g)

First: I want an easy way to get contact sheets (my lab only has the horizontal 4x row sheets, and I don't think they like contacting bare neg's).
Second: sleeved rolls are very tight, removing the neg from the sleeve for printing, without destroying the sleeve, is impossible....not much different than 35mm sleeved rolls (my lab automatically roll-sleeves my slide films, and I don't like that one bit....I try to remind them each time, but sometimes I forget).
But I found the good (read: cheap) solution already, Print File, at
http://www.pfile.com
They also make 70mm sheets, something I have been trying to find as well for some time.
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink

Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998
From: Vincent H Chan vhchan@me.UVic.CA
Subject: [Rollei] TLR panorama head question
Hi all,
I'm wanting to build a panoramic head for my TLR, as I'm too cheap to spend the $100+plus for one. Judging by the pictures in Ian Parker's books, the "trick" seems to be to rotate the TLR by an axis going through the middle of the lens group, and not the tripod axis.
Is this assumption correct? and can someone tell me what the offset between the axis where you connect the panorama head to your tripod and the axis of the regular tripod attachment on the bottom of the TLR?
Thanks,
--
Vincent Chan e-mail: vhchan@me.uvic.ca

Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998
From: Richard Knoppow dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: [Rollei] TLR panorama head question
This is about correct. The camera must be turned using the nodal point of the lens as the axis. This keeps the relative positions of near and far objects the same when the camera is turned. Otherwise there will be a displacement from frame to frame of near objects with regard to the background.
You should be prepared to find that the edges of the negatives do not match anyway. There is a distortion of three dimentional objects at the edges of imagas formed by rectilinear lenses. A sphere is reproduced as an egg shape. When a flat picture is viewed from the right distance this "distortion" is compensated by the angle of view. But, that does not happen when one is matching picture edges for a panoramic image. I don't know how Rollei gets rid of it in the demonstration images shown in publications. It would require printing onto a curved plane to do this.
----
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles,Ca.
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998
From: Matthew Phillips mlphilli@hsc.vcu.edu
Subject: [Rollei] TLR panorama head question
In principal, the axis of rotation should be on the lens' nodal point - though in practise, this seems to be of less importance: when Rollei redesigned the panorama head in the late fifties, the center of rotation was moved to the tripod socket. Only when this redesigned head is used in conjunction with the Rolleifix is the axis of rotation near the optical nodal point. (Near, because remember, the distance from tripod thread to optical center changes as the lens is focused on closer objects.)
I have both the older and newer style heads: personally I prefer to use the newer style, in conjunction with the Rolleifix, because it is a more robust design and is easier to level. (Keeping the bullseye level centered throughout a sequence of shots on the older model can lead you to tear out your hair.) You should be able to find Rollei panorama heads for significantly less than $100. If you're interested, you could have my older style head for less than $60 (US). Contact me off list if you're interested.
Regards,
M.Phillips

Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998
From: Eric Goldstein egoldste@bu.edu
Subject: Re: [Rollei] TLR panorama head question
Vincent H Chan wrote:
> the "trick" seems to be to rotate the TLR by an axis going > through the middle of the lens group, and not the tripod axis.

Just to amplify on what Richard and Matthew have said, you are looking for the rear nodal point (versus the front one) and in many lenses, including tessar-types, the iris is located at or near this point (the Elmar is a notable exception to this). I'm not sure if the Rollei heads were set up for 75 mm or 80 mm lenses...
In my experience panning around this point does make a difference in getting a closer print matching than just panning with the tripod head, though I have had the same experience as Richard with a certain amount of distortion making a prefect match tough. One technique to help deal with this is to retain a thin strip of mat between prints from each negative.
Eric Goldstein

From: w.j.markerink@a1.nl (Willem-Jan Markerink)
Newsgroups: rec.video,rec.photo.equipment.misc
Subject: Re: Looking for VERY wide angle lens
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 98
antispam@here.not (john r pierce) wrote:

>Jim Pike jpike@nyx.net wrote: > >>I'm wondering how wide an angle is possible. I'm wondering >>if it's possible to have a lense or assembly of lenses that >>gives 270 degrees. Something that can be placed on an exterior >>corner and see all the way from one wall to the other. If not, >>what is the widest angle possible? > >I think anything wider than 180 degrees would violate some law of physics or >another. a true 180 degree fisheye generates a circular image.

220 degree fisheyes exist, in the form of 6mm fisheyes....:-)) Someone even reconstructed one of these into a swing-lens panorama system, creating 360 degree horizontal x 220 degree vertical shots....no brain can handle that....:-))
Check my homepage for that particular link:
http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/mainpage.htm
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink

From: josh@WOLFENET.COM (Joshua_Putnam)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: 6x6 or 6x7 or rather square or rectangular
Date: 30 Jul 1998

>Bonnephoto wrote: >> > The 6 x4.5 and 6 x 7 formats are "ideal" only because they don't have >to be cropped to make a standard 8x10 enlargement. From an aesthetic >viewpoint, there is nothing ideal about them... >Any frame ratio requires compositional adjustments. Whether you shoot >square, 1.25:1, 1.5:1, 2:1, etc. you need to compose with the frame in >mind. >I prefer 6x9cm (aprox. 1.5:1) because of it's pleasing shape. Some >compositions are harder, while other compositions are a natural.

Likewise, I find 6x9cm, or even the standard 24x36mm 35mm negative, far more natural and pleasing for landscapes than the squarer formats. Luckily, if you take standard paper and cut it in half, you get paper that matches 1.5:1 pretty well, e.g. 16x20 makes 10x16.
--
Josh@WolfeNet.com is Joshua Putnam / P.O. Box 13220 / Burton, WA 98013
"My other bike is a car."
http://www.wolfenet.com/~josh/

From: "Dirk J. Bakker" dbakker@mindspring.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format
Subject: Re: Lens to cover 6x18 format
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998
twh@geog.pdx.edu wrote:

> > I am in the process of building a 6x18cm panoramic camera. I need a lens to > cover the 18cm width, but do not need room for shifts. I don't want to spend > too much money on this flaky project. Older lenses are okay. I don't even > know where to start. Does anyone have a lens recommendation? Anything in > the slightly wide angle to "normal" focal length would be okay. Thanks. > > -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- > http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum

Hi,
Check out Glen Evans' site. He's had a 6x18.5cm foe sale for a while and you may find good info there. The URL is:
http://www.photomall.com/gepano.htm
HTH,
Dirk

From: black_bird@usaf.org
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format
Subject: Re: Lens to cover 6x18 format
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998
twh@geog.pdx.edu wrote:

> I am in the process of building a 6x18cm panoramic camera. I need a lens to > cover the 18cm width, but do not need room for shifts. I don't want to spend > too much money on this flaky project. Older lenses are okay. I don't even > know where to start. Does anyone have a lens recommendation? Anything in > the slightly wide angle to "normal" focal length would be okay. Thanks. >

Check your local newspaper(s) to see if they have an old Process camera in the attic. Some newspapers don't use a process camera anymore, and may have a lens they sell at a reasonable price.
Newspaper negatives are about 14" X 24", and a lens from a process camera will cover your format nicely.
Steve

From: Allen Greenky esquire@ricochet.net
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.misc
Subject: Re: LF lens advice
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998
Cindy wrote:
> > Hi > > I am using it in a home-made camera, which will incorporate a roll-film > back, so it only has to cover 6X9 centimeters. I know there are lots of > good MF cameras out there that will do a good job, (I own a Medalist, > Yashica Mat 124G, and several folders). > > My husband and I are building this thing (well, he's doing the > building.. I am the brains in this outfit!)- it will be a fixed-focus > (infinity), aerodynamic, and use the film advance portion of an old 6X9 > folding camera. We'll be hanging it out the side of an open-cockpit > airplane, and we're trying to make it as aerodynamically "clean" as > possible. >

do you require a focusing mount? if not, a view camera lens would be great.
Look for lenses for orphaned cameras, Kowa 6, Mamiya universal.
But it seems that there are special cameras for arial work, with large handles to grip and easy winding levers. Those folders have a small knob to twist.
esq uire AT ricochet . net

From Medium Format Digest:
From: Tom Loizeaux loizcren@erols.com
Subject: Response to Horseman SW612
Date: 1998-09-07
John,
Though I haven't shot with the Horseman SW612 yet, I have seriously looked into it as my possible next step toward wide-field photography.
The camera is similar to the Linfof 612 in many ways. The Linhof, however, exposes a frame that is nearly 120mm long, while the Horseman 612 back give you a frame of 56 x 112mm. Though it is a true 2:1 ratio frame, it really can't be considered a panoramic frame.
I have found that, to some degree, the more extreme the frame ratio - departing from "normal", the more specialized the images or subject matter must be. Of course, what is "normal"? The 6x17cm cameras are interesting, but I wonder how useful they would be in my nature photography. Wide landscapes, yes, but delicate compositions of tone and texture may be difficult with a panoramic camera.
It's for this reason that I like the 6x12 image. I reaches out horizontally to help create a sense of being in a space, but is not obtrusively long. I also feel that I'd be happier with the 65mm, or even 75mm lens on the 6x12 camera because it renders the scene in a more realistic way to my eye.
The quality of the Horseman seems quite good...maybe not quite up to the Linhof standards, but then at half the Linhof price I think it holds it's own quite well!

From Medium Format Digest:
From: James Chow jchow@atom.isl.melco.co.jp
Subject: Response to Horseman SW612
Date: 1998-09-08
I originally was considering getting a horseman SW612 and have played with it in shops and camera shows. On the plus side, it's very compact, the size of a Mamiya 7. OTOH, it appeared as if the film would be a little tricky to load, as the film and take up spool are close to one another, so you have to wind the film outwards and around. Instead of the horseman, I ended up buying the Fuji G617, mostly because I got the Fuji w/ filter for a fantastic price. Optically, it's not as sharp as my schneider/zeiss glass for my Rollei 6008, but still is quite good...you have to stop it down a lot, though. I've used it for shots of flower beds from about 10 ft away w/ very good results, as well as the typical landscape shots and some verticals. One thing about 6x17 is that you can always crop, and you can use it in place of a tilt-shift lens for architecture (in some sense) by cropping out the bottom portion of the image, leaving about a 6x12 with no converging verticals. The Fuji loads like a 35mm SLR...much easier to load than the Horseman.

[Ed. note: posting on r.p.m. about VPAN panoramic...]
rec.photo.marketplace
From: gfsteve@oro.net (STEVE WONG)
[1] FS: V-PAN 6 X 17 PANARAMIC VIEW CAMERA MINT (-) CONDITION
Date: Sun Sep 20 1998
I have For Sale a V-Pan 6 X 17 Panaramic View Camera w/ 2 rails,Mint Minus Condition...This Camera is no longer being manufactured...Collector's item!!!! I am selling this w/out lenses. Asking $2,700.00 E-mail me gfsteve@oro.net

Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998
From: Steve Berezin sbere@ix.netcom.com
Reply to: steve@berezin.com
To: "panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au" panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: How to make a 360o camera?
I am new to the list so please excuse this question if it is too basic.
I wanted to know if a panoramic 360o camera can be made simply by arranging small cameras in a circle with the lenses pointed outwards and using stitching software to put the resultant photos together. Either by using digital cameras or by using film cameras and triggering their shutters simultaneously.
I see no reason why it wouldn't work but I see no cameras like this. Also what type of distortion would this introduce?
Thanks,
--
Steve Berezin

rec.photo.equipment.35mm
From: "Gene F. Rhodes" GFRhodes@mail.direcpc.com
[1] Re: Homebuilt cameras
Date: Wed Nov 04 1998
I have 2 220k .jpg photo files defining a 35mm super wide angle pinhole camera and a hybrid twin lens wide frame 35mm camera made from a TLR and a 35mm body. Please e-mail me directly if you want copies.
regards
Gene

[Ed. see our Adapters Page for more on .42x adapters]
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998
From: Edward Meyers aghalide@panix.com
Reply to: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
To: Glenn Barry bonza1@ozemail.com.au
Subject: Re: Viewfinder
look for a .45x or similar front-of-the-lens wide angle lens attachment. Just mount a "foot" on it and look through it. It's close to 180 degrees viewing and is what the camera makers are doing to make their finders. Ed

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998
From: "KATHRYN L. CLARK" kathjeff@pacbell.net
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au, panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au, panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Horizon 202 machine prints
For those interested in 35mm panoramic machine prints from the Horizon, 24 X 58 mm or Widelux film formats, and you live in California, I found a Kodak lab in San Leandro that does inexpensive 4 1/2 X 12 inch prints. The lab is in San Leandro, Calif. (no mail order) however they pick up at various locations in California as follows:
Sacramento, Red Bluff, Santa Rosa, Lakeport, Fairfield, Fresno, Visalia, Monterey, San Francisco, San Rafael, just to name a few. Some of the chain stores they service are Longs Drugs, Ritz Camera, Wolf Camera, and others. The key is making sure they are sent out to the Kodak Processing labs in San Leandro, and not Sacramento or Manteca. The San Leandro lab has modified their machines to print the Horizon and Widelux formats. You must write in Special instructions (HORIZON or Widelux, and 35mm panoramic 4 X 12 prints. The actual prints are 4 1/2 X 12 inch, and are charged $.59 each plus procesing (2.25) each roll.
I also tried Thompson photo in Knoxville. They did a great job on the prints, which were 4 X 12 @ .90 each plus $1.95 process.
Another lab that has had their machines modified is Custom Panoramic Lab, Boca Raton. The prints are printed on five inch paper and cost $1.50 each plus $2.25 process.
I did attempt to send a test roll to the Kodak processing lab in Manteca, Ca. but they screwed them up, with a photogram explaining that there were overlapped images, improper film advance, and a need for camera service. You can imagine what the negatives look like!
So if your in Calif. and in need of Horizon machine prints, and you can wait about 8 - 10 days, the San Leandro Kodak processing lab is a best bet. If not, Thompson photo and Custom Panoramic for mail order, give great machine prints.
Has anyone else found any other labs willing to do inexpensive machine prints?????
Jeff Weisenburger

Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998
From: Robert Erickson bob@panoramic.net
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: Roundshot Enlarger
Any info on the Roundshot enlarger available???
-----

http://www.panoramic.net/panstore/roundshot.htm
http://www.roundshot.ch
(Shhhhhhhhhh. Don't tell anybody. There is a rumor that Noblex may be comming out with a strip enlarger soon. The target price is said to be under $10,000.)

Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998
From: Robert Erickson bob@panoramic.net
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: Publications Gifts
Looking for a gift for your panorama maniac?
Panoramic Books for sale on line at
http://www.panoramic.net/panstore/books.htm
(If your favorite panorama book is not here please let me know so that I can include it. I would be happy to include a review if you will write it)
Robert Erickson, bob@panoramic.net

Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998
From: "J.Redfern" jae7@nunanet.com
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: 6X12 conversions
Has anyone on this list any experience in converting a Polaroid 600SE or a Graflex XLSW (or something similar)into a 6X12 wide angle camera?
I've been toying with my 600SE for a while and noticed that the clearance at the rear would allow a 6X11 back such as a Horseman (not sure how it would attach) and my old 47mm SA F5.6 could be fitted into a focusing mount.
Any home engineers out there tried something like this before?
Cheers,
Jae

Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998
From: "M. Denis Hill" denis@thehillgroup.com
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: 6X12 conversions
...
I guess my project is the complement to your idea. I took the lens mount (bayonet), lens and viewfinder from a 75 mm Mamiya lens from a 600SE. I removed the lenses and opened up the front of a Stereo Realist to a 25 mm x 97 mm format on 35 mm film. I've been both busy (sold my house and moving to Washington state) and procrastinating about the final step: finishing the drawings to have a block of Delrin milled to mate the lens to the body.
I considered using a view camera lens, but the Mamiya already has a focus mount, much simplifying the project. It also takes 67 mm filters, and I happen to have an extra center filter that size in case I encounter vignetting.
--
M. Denis Hill mailto:denis@thehillgroup.com
The Hill Group http://www.thehillgroup.com
Marketing communications: writing, editing, photography
949-366-1641 San Clemente, California, USA

Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998
From: Edward Meyers aghalide@panix.com
Reply to: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: 6X12 conversions
It's easier to use an old speed graphic with a graflok back, as the Horseman 6x12 rollfilm holder fits it. Ed

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998
From: Steve Morton Steven.Morton@sci.monash.edu.au
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: 6X12 conversions
One option is to get a 6x7 or 6x9 roll film back from Mamiya Press camera and open the front of the magazine upto 6x12. You must alter the advance mechanism for the 6x12 image size. Then you could mount a lens (with focusing helicoid) directly onto the film back. I have had this done with a 35mm Apo Grandagon and it makes a very neat ultra wide angle camera.
Obviously you need access to a good engineering workshop
Cya
Steve

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998
From: Greg Vannasse gregbuys@ecqual.net
Reply to: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: 6X12 conversions
Hello
I made a 6x12 out of a mamiya universal camera by opening the film back to 6x12 and permanently mounting it on the camera. The older style cameras are wide enough for 6x12. The latter models are not. I used a 75 mm lens. I have not tried the 50 mm yet, but is should cover 6x12. I also mounted a 100 mm w.f. ektar with focus mount to a film back for a camera. I am working on one for a 65 mm sa. The film counter i just advance two times for each picture(6x7 back). You lose one picture per roll. Greg

Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998
From: Jan Boles jambo@micron.net
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Cylindrical Distortion
11-26-97
List:
A recent wide-ranging thread on "distortion" stopped short of the area I have been exploring lately. The term "cylindrical distortion" is helpful, in my opinion, in discussing the geometry involved. A scholarly discussion of the subject my be found in the March-April, 1983, issue of "American Scientist" magazine, pp. 132-140, the article "Panoramic Photographs," by Harold E. Malde, a mathematician, geologist, and very fine photographer.
As long as panoramic photographs (no matter what techniques are used to produce them) are displayed flat (i.e., in two dimensions), their visual effect is restricted. If the same pictures are displayed as an arc (i.e., cylindrically, in three dimensions) an altogether different effect results.
An example may be seen at:
http://www.acofi.edu/~comm/webquest/spring98/qboles.htm
My best to all on the list,
Jan Boles jambo@micron.net

Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998
From: Willem-Jan Markerink w.j.markerink@a1.nl
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: 6X12 conversions
Edward Meyers wrote:

> It's easier to use an old speed graphic with a graflok back, > as the Horseman 6x12 rollfilm holder fits it. Ed

But I believe the 47mm can't be mounted on a Speed Graphic, only on a Crown Graphic (has no focal plane shutter, and is hence less deep).
Of course, "doesn't fit" is a relative statement....it just depends how much you dare to saw off....:-))

Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998
From: Robert Erickson bob@panoramic.net
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: Panoramic equipment for sale web site
I got a suggestion to add a web page for panoramic equipment for sale.
I think that we should all join the Panoramic Photography Club on Yahoo! http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/panoramicphotography
It's free, and you can post what you want to sell there. The messages can be viewed by everyone, not just club members. That means that more buyers will see your items and you will have a better chance of making a sale.
When you sell your items you can delete your message.
Robert Erickson, bob@panoramic.net

Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998
From: YDegroot@aol.com
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: 5x17 back for 5x7 cameras
There are currently three options for 6x17 rolllfiilm backs:
1. An old Navy Torpedo or Burke & James Royal Panoram back, around which you can make your own view amera (I did), or use it on a homemade back for a 5x7 camera.
or:
2. (Not sure if still in production); a 6x17 back from Art Panorama, Tomiya
3. The back from the Chett Hanchet V-pan (do you need the camera to make it work???)

Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998
From: Tim Ellestad ellestad@mailbag.com
To: rollei@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
Subject: Re: [Rollei] Rollei Panormic Adapter
Years ago I made many "perfect match" panorama shots for a client that had a "baffled seamless" rear projection installation in house that they frequently produced big AV shows for. It takes a well marked ground glass to provide precise overlap positions along with some frame-for-frame "surveying". The panhead must be perfectly plumb and the nodal point must be centered over the panning pivot point to insure that the "pie-wedge" sections will fit snuggly shoulder to shoulder. All horizontal lines do line up, but higher and lower lines connect in corners making "facets", 1 for each frame. You are making a faceted arc, the inverse of the arc of the film plane. The effect becomes less pronounced with longer focal lengths, obviously. I don't know if the Rollei panorama adapter centers the node or not. Manfrotto (Bogen) has a new tripod head on the market that does just this. It has geared travels for x and y positing of the nodal point and three position screw leveling like a surveyors transit. A plodding job really, but the results can be spectacular.
Tim Ellestad

Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998
From: "Mitchell P. Warner" indepth@kuentos.guam.net
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: Linhof 617 DOV?

>Could someone tell me the DOV for the Linhof 617? How does it compare to the >Noblex or Horizon? > >I'm new at all this - thanks for the help. > > .....steven

Steve, try some of these sites

http://www.panphoto.com/ http://www.panphoto.com/cameras.html http://www.shortcourses.com/chapter11.htm http://www.pansnw.com/ http://www.panoramic.net/ http://www.midoil.demon.co.uk/pano/photog.htm

Also go to the Hm Pgs of large format lens makers:
Lens ForSale: http://www.ucc.uconn.edu/~jas95013/index3.html
B&H; has a very good informative set of pages covering the major large format cameras and lens:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/photo/large/navigation.html
A list of MANY large format links:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/links/photolinks.html

Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999
From: Willem-Jan Markerink w.j.markerink@a1.nl
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: Horizon 202
Gene F. Rhodes wrote:

> Hi Frank, > My 202 is 1/250 with no banding. Can't find the ser no.

It's around the lens, inside the turret....:-))

First two digits is year of construction....believe I have never seen the remaining 4 digits go pas 1800 or so....surprising low-quantity production actually.
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998
From: Helmut Dersch der@fh-furtwangen.de
Subject: Panorama Tools 1.5 (final release)
Changes and new features of Panorama Tools 1.5 final: (Mac and Win32 versions):
- Step-by-step tutorial (including sample images) on how to create spherical panoramas and large vertical FOV QTVR-panoramas (without using hemispherical lenses as claimed by IPIX).
- Stitcher with documentation
- FAQ explaining, among other questions, how to retouch and edit QTVR and RealVR panoramas, and how to correct barrel distortions in any lens.
- Facility added to easily read marked feature points from images.
- and many bug fixes and minor changes.
Best regards, and happy holidays
Helmut Dersch
-------------------------------------
Spherical Panoramas, Macro Panoramas,
Free Panorama Software:
http://www.fh-furtwangen.de/~dersch

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998
From: Steve Shapiro sgshiya@redshift.com
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: panoramic frames?
Not quite clear on what you call, not willing to make yourself; as I am always assembling frames and inserting my matted prints.
The American Frame Company in Ohio, USA offers the best, the very best prices. You buy pairs of the chosen style, Newton Bainbridge metal or other types wood, plastic -- the gamut, frankly -- and they offer cut plexiglass, too. Anyone can find glass, locally; but this is the very best price ever.
I hung a show that would normally cost over twelve hundred US dollars for $300, all 16X20 matted (11X14)prints.
Call them 1-800-537-0944 for a catalogue.
Steve Shapiro, Carmel, CA

rec.photo.equipment.large-format
From: bg174@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Gudzinowicz)
[1] Re: 90mm and shorter for 6x17cm???
Date: Mon Jan 25 1999
PentaxPix pentaxpix@aol.com wrote:

>What lenses, old or new will cover this format? Besides the Super Angulon. >Older lenses that are sharp are not out of the question!

To just cover, you need an image circle of 180 mm or so. A list of "modern" lenses follows. The columns are focal length, max. f/stop, image circle in mm, coverage in degrees, model, design (elements/groups), shutter size, the year(s) which the specs were published and the rise/fall/shift permitted by the image circle.
Rise Yr of Fall FL f/# IC Deg Model E/G Shttr Specs Shift 72 5.6 226 115 Schneider Super Angulon XL 8/4 0 98 24; 44 75 4.5 200 106 Nikkor SW 8/4 0 84-98 10; 23 75 4.5 200 106 Rodenstock Grandagon 7/4 0 76 10; 23 75 5.6 198 106 Schneider Super Angulon n.a. 0 68-98 9; 21 75 5.6 196 105 Fujinon SWD 8/4 0 76-98 8; 19 75 5.6 196 105 Fujinon SWDS 8/6 0 84 8; 19 75 4.5 195 105 Calumet Caltar II 8/6 0 91 8; 18 75 4.5 195 105 Rodenstock Grandagon 8/4 0 84-91 8; 18 75 4.5 195 105 Rodenstock Grandagon N 8/4 0 98 8; 18 75 4.5 195 105 Sinar Sinaron W 8/4 0 91 8; 18 75 6.8 187 103 Calumet Caltar II n.a. 0 91 4; 9 75 6.8 187 103 Rodenstock Grandagon 6/4 0 84-91 4; 9 75 6.8 187 103 Rodenstock Grandagon N 6/4 0 98 4; 9 75 6.8 187 103 Sinar Sinaron W 6/4 0 91 4; 9 75 8 179 100 Schneider Super Angulon n.a. n.a. 56-76 0; 0 88 5.6 305 120 Wild Super Aviogon 6/4 n.a. 56 65; 97 88 5.6 305 120 Wild Super Infragon 10/6 n.a. 56 65; 97 90 5.6 259 110 Schneider Super Angulon XL 10/6 0 98 41; 68 90 4.5 240 106 Rodenstock Grandagon 6/4 1 76 31; 55 90 4.5 236 105 Calumet Caltar II n.a. 1 91 29; 52 90 5.6 236 105 Fujinon SWD 8/4 0 76-98 29; 52 90 5.6 236 105 Fujinon SWDS 8/6 0 84 29; 52 90 4.5 236 105 Rodenstock Grandagon 8/6 1 91 29; 52 90 4.5 236 105 Rodenstock Grandagon N 8/4 1 98 29; 52 90 4.5 236 105 Sinar Sinaron W 8/4 1 91 29; 52 90 5.6 235 105 Calumet Caltar HR n.a. 0 84 29; 51 90 4.5 235 105 Nikkor SW 7/4 0 84-98 29; 51 90 8 235 105 Nikkor SW 7/4 0 84-98 29; 51 90 5.6 235 105 Schneider Super Angulon 8/4 0 68-98 29; 51 90 6.8 221 102 Calumet Caltar II 8/4 0 84-91 21; 41 90 6.8 221 102 Rodenstock Grandagon 6/4 0 84-91 21; 41 90 6.8 221 102 Rodenstock Grandagon N 6/4 0 98 21; 41 90 6.8 221 102 Sinar Sinaron W 6/4 0 91 21; 41 90 8 219 101 Ilex Acugon n.a. n.a. 76 20; 39 90 8 216 100 Fujinon NSWS n.a. 0 84 19; 37 90 8 216 100 Fujinon SW 6/6 0 76-98 19; 37 90 8 216 100 Schneider Super Angulon 6/6 0 56-98 19; 37 90 8 215 100 Calumet Caltar WII 6/4 n.a. 76 18; 36

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999
From: Marco Pauck pauck@wmd.de
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: dewarping panoramas for stills
Some examples for 'flattening' images can be found at
http://www.pauck.de/marco/photo/panorama/living_in_panoramic_format/living_in_panoramic_format.html
I'm using a Horizon 202 and Helmut Dersch's Panorama Tools (Thanks Helmut!).
Marco

Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999
From: Clint O'Connor clint@argonauta.com
To: rmonagha@post.cis.smu.edu
Subject: Pinhole posting
I don't see how to post a reply to this particular topic but thought you'd be interested. I recently made one myself using a set of pinholes I bought for $31 and model aircraft plywood and basswood, using 120 film and a semicircular back. Finished it up with veneer and a brass T-crank to make it look nicer. Total cost was about $60 plus one pinhole out of the $31 set. I took it to the Pacific Northwest and got spectacular transparencies using Velvia and Provia 100 & 400 and B&W; with HP5 400 and Pan F 50. I should have the prints ($200 worth!) back next week and can scan them if you're interested in posting them.
Camera
0.0126" pinhole in .001" monel
3" focal length
effective f-stop of 238
120 roll film
images are 54mm x 160mm (about 6" long)
field of view is approximately 120 degrees
uniform exposure, edge to edge (no apparent falloff)
The one thing I never anticipated in building this was whether anyone in town could print 6" negatives. They have to go to Dallas; no one in Austin has a 5"x7 enlarger.
Clint O'Connor

Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999
From: Helmut Dersch der@fh-furtwangen.de
Subject: Panorama Tools - Speed Up & Automatic cropper
New Features:
o Panorama Tools now finds the brightest rectangle in an image and cuts the frame. This is useful for automatic cropping of scanned images and of circular fisheye images.
o A faster algorithm for the resampler has been implemented which results in 80-200% faster sampling speed.
o And many extensions, bug fixes and minor changes...
Panorama Tools is a free Photoshop plug-in (PC & Mac) which can be used to generate, edit and transform many kinds of panoramic images. Check the Readme file at my site for more info, and download 'Panorama Tools 1.6.0' if you like it.
Best regards
Helmut Dersch
-------------------------------------
Spherical Panoramas, Macro Panoramas,
Free Panorama Software:
http://www.fh-furtwangen.de/~dersch

Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999
From: "Gene F. Rhodes" GFRhodes@intcon.net
Subject: New Project Complete
My 35 mm equivalent of a 6 x 25 cm wide angle / wide image panoramic camera is complete, I think. It can shoot from f32 to f11 with virtually no light fall-off because of an internal 1x neutral density center filter (thanks Sir Simon) and a software center filter mask in Picture Publisher 6.0. The 102 mm negative requires three scans to load, is stitched in PP6, and then edited for light balance. Details are available on my home page.
http://linux.cottagesoft.com/~gfrhodes
--
II*

Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999
From: "Mitchell P. Warner" indepth@kuentos.guam.net
Subject: Beg to differ! Re: V-pan problems
I've owned a V-pan for about 2 years and had NO trouble with it. If anything the machining is a Machinists dream come true. Perhaps overdone, but absolutly NOT lacking in refinement. I've shot with it from steaming jungles in the Micronesian Islands to the teeming concrete jungles of SFO, Chicago and NYC with no problems. Despite it being a dedicated tripod camera I've even been able to do some aerial work from a helicopter with the doors off. The slide/lock mechanism for the rear standard is so finely machined that I often use IT for fine focus adjustments. If I have a complaint it is that it is built like a tank and weighs accordingly.
Having full front moves, and, with a little creativity, being able to simulate tilt and swing on the back via tripod head movements, makes the camera a valuable tool. Comparing it with a Fuji is inappropriate, as the Fuji was intended to be able to be hand held. Comparison with a Linhof may be more appropriate, but not having had the joy of shooting with one I can't say.
Having full front moves, and, with a little creativity, being able to simulate tilt and swing on the back via tripod head movements, makes the camera a valuable tool. Comparing it with a Fuji is inappropriate, as the Fuji was intended to be able to be hand held. Comparison with a Linhof may be more appropriate, but not having had the joy of shooting with one I can't say.
When I was getting ready to purchase a 617 I was ready to buy the Fuji but, at the last minute I asked my Pan agent which camera they recommended, which sold the most. Hands down it was, at that time (I don't know now nearly 2 years later) V-Pan.
Another advantage was that I could easily slip all my XL 4x5 lenses onto the V-Pan, saving thousands in lens purchases.

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999
Subject: How to know focus free setting of large format lens?
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au

I have made my own "V-pan", using a 4x5 Graflex focusing bed, and bellows, a
homemade box with a 6x17 rim, and removable 6x17 rollfilm backs. I have two
lenses, both from, Osaka, (4-element Ektar/Tessar design) and can focus using
a 6x17 groundglass: a 120mm and a 180mm.

However, for quick shooting without wanting to focus, I want to be able to
set the lenses at "infinity", so that I do not need to focus and can just
increase my depth of field by using smaller f-stops.

Does anybody know at what distance I can consider these lenses focused at infinity?
The 90mm lens on my Linhof 617 focuses at infinity beyond its 40 feet mark,
at about 50 or 60 feet, which is about 15 meter.
The 120 must be around 18-20 feet
The 180mm around 80 feet (twice the distance of the 90mm????)
To anyone who can help, thanks in advance.

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999
From: Charles Tait charles.tait@zetnet.co.uk
Subject: Re: 6x17 masks
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Hi there
I had Secol make me up some 6x17 masks a while ago. They were a tad expensive, but they were very satisfactory and smaller than the huge Kenro ones. By the way I found a very interesting site in Utah "The Stock Solution" which has these mounts and lots of other goodies, especially Epson inkjet stuff, at http://www.tssphoto.com/sp/.
What kind of stuff do you shoot?
Charles

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999
From: Gary garybeaton@bigfoot.com
Subject: RE: 6x17 masks
Try

Javerette Ltd Unit 13 Gatwick Metro Centre Balcombe Road Horley Surrey RH6 9GA UK Telephone: 01293 771020 Fax: 01293 821011

They were a stock item a couple of years ago.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Dunn [mailto:jimmyd@dial.pipex.com]
Sent: 22 May 1999 15:15
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: 6x17 masks
I am looking for a source for 21cm x 10cm (outside edge of card) black masks, to take 6x17 tranies, preferably a company that sells world wide.
Also does anyone have a web page for Kenro and any other mount suppliers.
Thanks
............................................................
Jimmy Dunn
Scottish Stock Photography

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999
From: Robert Durn Robert.Durn@tesco.net
Subject: Tolerance
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
I have just taken some test shots with my new home made "Roboscope 2" camera! It uses 120 film stock and a 24mm Nikon lens. The image measures 152mm on the negative for a full 360 degree. Using the 2 x focal length x Pi rule it should be 150.796mm. Is this within tolerance? The images are sharp-ish but I'm not sure if the lens is mounted at the correct distance to the film. Should it be 46.5mm for Infinity?. Any thoughts?
Rob Durn.

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999
From: Edward Meyers aghalide@panix.com
Subject: Re: Tolerance
Robert Durn wrote:

> I have just taken some test shots with my new home made "Roboscope 2" > camera! It uses 120 film stock and a 24mm Nikon lens. The image measures > 152mm on the negative for a full 360 degree. Using the 2 x focal length x Pi > rule it should be 150.796mm. Is this within tolerance? The images are > sharp-ish but I'm not sure if the lens is mounted at the correct distance to > the film. Should it be 46.5mm for Infinity?. Any thoughts? > > Rob Durn. > > Also at Robert.Durn@CS.Stockport.ac.u.k

No problem. Marked focal lengths are rarely true. Manufacturers like to round off the numbers and fudge on the side that's more desireable. This is why Erickson of Florida, USA, uses zoom lenses. After the camera is complete he makes tests at slight focal length variations to find the right one for the "disc".
Ed

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999
From: Don Roberts droberts@soli.inav.net
Subject: Re: Tolerance
Yes, 46.mm is the right distance for flange to film and infinity focus. The previous poster pointed out the problem I think that matching the disk diameter and the actual focal length is tricky and time consuming. Using a zoom lens does help (I use a Tokina 20-35mm zoom) or you can follow the procedure in Michael Dusarriez' book and build up or cut down the disk. He gives some diagnostics for which you should do. Still a lot of trial and error though.
Good luck.

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999
From: Dan Irvin DIrvin@centuryoptics.com
Subject: RE: Tolerance
46.5mm is the correct flange focal distance for Nikon Lenses. Make sure that in your mounting that the lens mount is parallel to the focal plane. We use tolerances of +.0000" -.0005" for our systems, and require parallelism to be within .0002".
I have measured focal length on a great many Nikon Lenses and find that the focal length marked is usually pretty accurate.
Dan Irvin
Century Optics.
dirvin@centuryoptics.com

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999
From: Helmut Dersch der@fh-furtwangen.de
To: "panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au" panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
QTVR Mail list Quicktime-VR@public.lists.apple.com
Subject: Fisheye Lenses & Panorama Tools
To all users of Panorama Tools:
I just received notice that IPIX is searching US-sites for panoramic images made with fisheye lenses and my software.
They claim that in the US this is not allowed without their permission. If they find such images, the author of the image and myself may be subject to legal actions (patent infringement).
Helmut Dersch

from Panorama-L list:
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999
From: Helmut Dersch der@fh-furtwangen.de
Subject: Re: Ms. Stark's e-mail *Statement from Infinite Pictures*
Dgling@aol.com wrote:

> Would you, Ms. Stark or Dr. Dersch, be willing to take the time and explain > to us in plain English: the scope of IPIX patent, details of the court ruling > yesterday, and specifics that the public should be cognizant of, lest we > inadvertently infringe on IPIX patent and be harassed by them in the future.

Hello George,
IPIX claims that no one in the US is allowed to extract perspectively corrected images from hemispherical fisheye images using a computer. I might put the exact wording of their patent claims on my site soon. I personally do not believe that these claims are valid but that is another story.
Not infringing their patent does not mean that they will not harass you as I and others have experienced. Eg, they might claim that your images are theirs, or don't like it if you describe their file format, or that your panoramas have large vertical field of view, etc.
Helmut Dersch

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999
From: Julie Stark stark@smoothmove.com
To: "'panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au'" panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: RE: Statement from Infinite Pictures
Glen,
Thank you for your response. The court said the following:
"Nothing in this injunction shall preclude or prevent defendants IPI ... from making, using, distributing, or selling or offering for sale in the U.S., any seamer or viewer software that is used in ways that do not infringe the '667 patent, including without limitation ... processing, projecting, or viewing photographic images that are not taken with hemispherical fisheye lens cameras..." (irrelvant sections omitted as indicated by "...")
The judgement was specific to Infinite Pictures' panoramic solutions and only addresses the use of hemispherical fisheye lens... not 15mm or longer lenses. Essentially, the judgement cleared the way for Infinite Pictures to offer other solutions - such as our SmoothMove Spherical Photo Solution that couples the Kaidan QuickPan Tripod Head with our stitching software - that don't include hemispherical fisheye lens.
Kaidan and Infinite Pictures are dedicated to offering the best solutions possible without mandating the type of equipment used, limiting what can be captured and how the completed panoramas are used, or charging for each image captured.
Once again, thanks for your response.
Julie A. Stark
Public Relations
Infinite Pictures
33 NW First Avenue, Suite 1
Portland, OR 97209
503/221-2449
stark@smoothmove.com
http://www.smoothmove.com

[Ed. note: I am posting this tip here as many 616 cameras have a 2:1 aspect ratio (panoramic) and can use 120 film with this tip, making it cheap to use and low cost to buy for a panoramic 120 film camera...]
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999
From: claudia smith cbs@ns.net
To: rmonagha@post.cis.smu.edu
Subject: using 120 in Kodak Six=16
Hi
I use a 616 spool for take=up and then pop 120 film in the loader with a nickel on each side for spacers. Can get 5 exposures by advancing to 3 for the first exposure and going to 6, 9 etc. Nickels are a lot easier than trying to make extenders. Your site is very helpful, thanks.
cioa!
Claudia

From: perkowitz@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: cheap 6x17 (or similar) camera?
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999
ive been really enjoying the huge negatives i get from my $10 kodak cartridge premo camera. sure it can be a pain to use, but what do you want for $10? anyway, i've been wanting to get into panoramic and havent the money for an XPAN or something.. are there any old 6x17 (or so; anything wider than 6x9) cameras out there that i might be able to find for $20-50? (using 120 or, in a pinch, 620 film)
thanks
mike

From Rollei Mailing List:
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000
From: Richard Knoppow dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: [Rollei] Panoramic Shooting with TLR

>I've been lusting after a Noblex for years, but was wondering if I was >foolish not to simply use my 2.8E for panoramic shots. I have some >questions: > >Do I need a Rollei panoramic tripod thing, or can I use my ballhead (which >has a pan adjustment graduated in degrees)? How many degrees precisely do >I shift for each shot? > >What will be the difference in results -- perspective, DOF, etc. -- >between this method and a true panoramic camera? >Thanks in advance, >Douglas Cooper

The Rollei panorama head devides 360deg into ten sections. This is enough overlap for both the 75mm and 80mm lenses.
The important difference between using the panorama head and just paning the camera on a tripod is that the panorama head places the center or rotation under the rear nodal point of the lens (at least at infinity focus). At this point there is no shift in the relative postions of background and foreground as the camera is moved. You can make an off-set plate to accomplish the same thing. The nodal point is about in the air space behind the diaphragm.
There was some discussion here a while back (read argument) about whether the camera should rotate around the rear or front nodal point. After doing some research, and talking to a friend who is an actual Phd in optics, it seems the rear nodal point is the correct one.
Note that the images will NOT match at the edges due to the rectilinear characteristic of the lens. While this is desirable for making flat images it results in a distorsion of three dimentional objects at the corners, i.e. spheres become egg-shaped. It also results in a lack of matching of diagonal lines which run through the seams at the edges of the sections. This can be corrected to some extent by printing onto a curved surface. I am not sure how Rollei got the beautiful panoramas printed in their instruction books but I would be willing to bet they were _not_ photographed with a Rollei panoram head. They look much more like the results from a Cirkut type camera.
----
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles,Ca.
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

From Rollei Mailing List:
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999
From: "John A. Lind" jlind@netusa1.net
Subject: Re: [Rollei] panoramic head follow up.
Lucian wrote:

>I had the same question a while back as: what is the difference between >panoramas taken on the panoramic head with the 75mm lens and 80mm lens. >I don't dare ask about Rolleiwide! > >Lucian > > Andre Calciu wrote: > >> ok, now that we established that the rotating axis should be in the >> rear nodal point of a lens, has anybody been able to figure out >> whether the rollei pano heads accomplish this centering? what a >> disappointment would be to find out that f&h neglected to think about >> this little detail when they made the adapters.

Don't know if this has been posted here before or not, so at some risk of repetition . . .
I have seen two tests described for the position of the rotation axis:
1. This works best for SLR's (possibly TLR's if the lenses are aligned perfectly vertical and the nodal point of the viewing lens is in the same plane as the nodal point of the taking lens). Level the tripod, then with camera attached ensure the camera is level! Looking through the viewfinder or at the viewing screen find a narrow near object such as a thin pole. If one is not to be found, you can plant a narrow vertical stake near the camera. When the camera is rotated the alignment of the near object should remain aligned with very distant objects and should not shift.
2. This can be used with rangefinders or other cameras (TLR's ?) for which looking through the viewfinder using the first method will not work. Two people to do this may be more efficient. Level the tripod, then with camera attached ensure the camera is level! Plant a thin narrow stake about 10 feet or so from the camera. Stop the aperture down to the smallest possible (usually f/16 or f/22). Find a position where the stake is between you and the camera lens and it is lined up with the aperture opening in the lens diaphragm. As the camera is rotated, the stake and the diaphram opening should remain aligned and should not shift. After my test using a shift is completed (see below), I may use this to see if it will work with my 35S!
I cannot vouch for the efficacy of either method because I have tried neither. If someone has, remarks on them both would be appropriate. Found the methods when researching how to do panoramics with standard cameras and lenses. I am in the middle of shooting a roll of film in an SLR using a 35mm shift lens: shifting left, center, then right to see if this will work for a panoramic that can be assembled out of the three resultant prints. Supposedly one can do this also. Rollei SLR owners who have a shift lens might try this also. Of course, even greater shift can be achieved using a 1.4x or 2.0x teleconverter. When I shifted the lens on my SLR near and far objects appeared to remain aligned, however the real test will be when I get the prints and digital files and attempt to stitch them together.
-- John

From Rollei Mailing List:
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999
From: Richard Knoppow dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: [Rollei] panoramic head

>Richard Knoppow wrote:

Very long thread snipped....

>>Richard > >Excellent exposition !! Worthy of Kingslake. However, if we don't rotate >about the forward nodal point (not to be confused with the misused >"Optical Center"), we no longer have a fixed viewing POINT. > >I don't think we need curved focal plane and curved enlarging easels >to accomplish a pleasing and fairly accurate panorama. I used to use >focusing rail by (I think) Novoflex to shift the axis of rotation to >what I then thought was the optical center. This was BC, before >computers. > >Jerry

The problem is that the first nodal point is really a fiction. Its measured when the lens is turned around. The "viewpoint" for the film is effectively at the rear or second nodal point.
Thanks BTW for the complement although my reference this time was Warren Smith rather than Kingslake.
One of the few books that seems to address the panoramic camera directly is _Fundamentals of Optical Engineering_ Donald H. Jacobs, First edition (1943) New York, The McGraw-Hill Book Company
See page 24 for an illustration of a rotating panoramic camera which shows the location of both principle points.
Its all an optical illusion anyway;-)
Other stuff. I tried my panoramic head on both my 3.5MX and 2.8E. The center or rotation for both is just about the plane of the front of the camera body. Because the focus panel of the 2.8E is deeper (although the body seems actually slightly shallower) the center of rotation seems to be about the diaphragm location for both lenses. I don't know how far the rear principle point is from the diaphragm in either lens but it is likely pretty close.
I can't tell from Prochnow (my German is rudimentary) the details of the four variations of the pan head he shows but two of them seem to differ only in the size of the mounting thread. I suspect at least one of the others is meant to fit older Rolleis which did not have the locating pins on them.
There is enough overlap in the images to eliminate any problem from the very slightly narrower field of the 80mm lens.
The rear principle point of the viewing lens must coincide with the taking lens for the focusing to be coincident so that should not be a problem.
As far as Rollies, I have an Old Standard with f/3.5 Tessar, an MX Automat with Xenar, a 2.8E with Xenotar, and a Rolleicord IV with Xenar. I also have a small collection of accessories. Small fry in this company:-) OTOH, I now have nine cameras which take 4x5.
----
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles,Ca.
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

From Rollei Mailing List:
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999
From: "John A. Lind" jlind@netusa1.net
Subject: Re: [Rollei] new panoramic head info
Andre Calciu wrote: [snip]

>the image showed the rotating axis going straight through the middle >of the front element of the lens.

I'm not surprised after reading the in-depth discussion about the "front" and "rear" principal point (or nodal point) locations given on Phil Greenspun's site under the lens FAQ and tutorial (written by David Jacobson).
In the FAQ, see Q20 which talks about the pivot point for normal lenses:
http://www.photo.net/photo/optics/lensFAQ.html
The tutorial, which is deeper technically, talks about the principal, or nodal points of a lens. The discussion is found under the section entitled
"Object distance, image distance, and magnification":
http://www.photo.net/photo/optics/lensTutorial.html
After reading it, my understanding is these points are not necessarily where one might expect to find them intuitively, or even inside the lens. Where they are located is very dependent on the lens design. The "front" point can be in front of the lens, inside it somewhere, or even behind the "rear" point. I don't claim to completely understand the entire tutorial, but every time I read it a little more gets clearer. For the diagram/picture in the tripod and head brochures, the pivot point may have been correct for the Nikon and lens depicted. For a different lens, it could be somewhere else entirely, which is why it is adjustable if I understood your description correctly.
Maybe the brochure should have the disclaimer: "Your nodal points may vary." (grin)
-- John

From Rollei Mailing List:
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999
From: Richard Knoppow dickburk@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: [Rollei] new panoramic head info
....
This is a good tutorial but pretty concentrated. The Nodal points and Principle points of a lens in air at both sides are identical. For lenses which have each side in a medium with different index of refraction they will not coinside. A consideration for microscopes or underwater lenses but not for general photographic optics.
The nodal points are defined as being unique points where a ray of light entering at the first nodal point will emerge from the second without change in direction.
The nodal points are found using a "nodal slide" on an optical bench. The lens is focused at a source effectively at infinity (like a colimmator) and the lens is swiveled around while sliding it back and forth in the fixture. When the pivot is under the rear nodal point the image will appear to stand still. To find the location of the front nodal point the lens is turned around in the fixture. The rear nodal point has the interesting property that beside not causing the position of the distant source to move when the lens is pivoted the relative position of close and far objects in the field also remain the same. This is the qulity which is important in panoramic photos. The same point is used for some special effects in motion pictures, particularly when the old system of "glass shots" is used or the matching of a distant background to a closer miniature. If the camrera is paned around the rear nodal point the foreground and background will remain stationary to each other.
The principle points or nodal points depend on the type of lens. For very thin lenses they lie inside the lens. For thick lenses or compound lenses they can be anywhere. For bi-concave or bi-convex lenses both nodal points lie inside the lens. For a positive meniscus lens one point lies just below the convex surface and the other in front of the lens. For a negative meniscus one point is again inside the lens, the other outside the concave surface.
The nodal points can lie well outside the lens. Telephoto lenses and reversed telephoto or retrofocus lenses make practical use of this. The focal length of a lens is defined as the distance from the rear principle point to the second focal plane, which is plane language is the film. For a telephoto lens this point falls well in front of the rear of the lens and may be in front of the lens itself. Its not too difficult to measure the focal length of a lens if great precision is not required. The FL can be determined by the amount the lens moves when changing magnification. The easiest way to measure this is to focus first at infinity, then set up for a 1:1 image. The distance the lens has moved from one focus position to the other is the focal length. The location of the second nodal point can be found from this by simply focusing the lens at infinity and measuring from the film to the indicated focal length. The marked focal length is good enough for to see if the lens is a tele or retro type.
Since the aluminum strip at the rear of Rollei TLR bodies is supposed to mark the film plane (is this right Marc?) the rear nodal point will be exactly the distance of the focal length of the lens to this mark when the lens is focused at infinity.
I think I am exhausted:-)
----
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles,Ca.
dickburk@ix.netcom.com

Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000
From: Denton Taylor denton@asan.com
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: recent panorama-camera-prices
you wrote:
>Hi, > ><< 1.) At ebay.com: Linhof 617 S F5.6/90 mm lens, 4500 $ >> > >I can't see why anyone would pay $4,500 for a used Linhof when you can buy a >brand new Fuji GX617 body with a 90mm lens for about $5,200.

You can buy a Linhof 6x17 with fixed 90 brand new for $4000 from Wall Street Camera.

Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000
From: zxiong@mgg6.crcamet.mq.edu.au
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: you want coverage? ;-) Re: Nikkor coverage

>Actually you should consider the circle if the lens were shifted 10mm in >BOTH directions! So your lens would have to cover about 24x54 (the Nikkors >both have fall off when shifted in the length of the film and Nikon >recommends only shifting it 8mm). So doing the math says that the Nikon 28mm >PC lens has about a 59mm circle. not too bad for a 35mm lens. but still >not enough to cover more than a slit on a 120 panning camera. So please >explain how the 24mm Nikkor cover 120?

Hi Joe,
I thought people were talking about 120 slit cameras where you need only 56mm by 3 mm or so. So if you have an image circle of 59 mm that will do the job. On the other hand. I believe a lens is capable of covering a circlar area, due to optical symmetry. If it covers 24x54, if covers something slightly less than 54x54. I'm not familar with designs of any particular PC lenses, but the pricipal should be the same. If a lens if shifted, it extends coverage to a wider area. Then again, because the image circle is symmetric to the optical axis, it must extend the coverage to an entire circle, even though the camera opens only for part of it.
I came to this conclusion when I was puzzled by the tiny size of the Noblex 135U lens which is capable of shifting 3 mm. The lens itself is smaller than those on many point-and-shoot cameras, yet the image quality is exceptionally good and shifting never produce any vegnitting. I found out why when I reckoned with the numbers. The Noblex lens need only to cove 3x24 mm, far less than the 24x36 area required for other 35mm cameras. With 3mm shift it need only 6mm more of coverage, which is only 3x30 mm.
Zonghou Xiong

Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000
From: Sofjan@aol.com
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: How about the new Heliar 15mm (Cosina) for 360 deg pan ?
Hey Guys
Thanks a bunch for all the answer. I'll definitely will try the sources for the M39 adapter. I've already take apart a Zeiss Nettar 6x9 and try a dry fit.
The dimension of Voigtlander (cosina) Bessa L body (Thickness. Front to film plane) and Zeiss Nettar is very close. Since the Heliar rear element doesn't touch the film plane and The Bessa L body has enough clearance to fit a Focal plane shutter, I think I'll have enough clearance to fit Heliar on The Nettar body. With room to spare for the slit. I think I will have no problem with the rollers too. Because even though the rear element ported into the body the dimension of the rear element is very small.
I don't have my Heliar with me right now in my office but I'll measure the protrusion and will post it.
Anyway I'm very excited about this project. Up to now I have already pick together all the material needed to do the project with the exception of the Roller with O rings and the way to attach the Heliar to the body. I got a very low Rpm Geared motor very high torque and will run from 4 AA batteries. No vibration either. I also pick up a Children RC Toy car from Radio Shack for $6. I 'll use the Radio control parts and junk the car.
I just hope I can fins enough free time to do this project.
I'll post the dimension of Heliar protrusion and my progress
Thanks again
Sofjan Mustopoh

Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000
From: Sofjan@aol.com
Reply to: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: How about the new Heliar 15mm (Cosina) for 360 deg pan ?
Hi Stan
It is not my original idea or project . It is actually Those of Mr Dusariev and his colleaguae. Of whose Books has been a great help for me. Mr Dusarev sold a compilation of 360 deg panoramic camera construction notes for a very reasonable price. You can also see the Introduction on
http://www.panoramic.net
My odessy into 360 panoramic started out when i read Robert Erickson post on the newsgroup. he offered to show a homemade 360 deg panoramic . I was intrigued so i email him and he send back the web site. That was 2 1/2 -3 years ago. Took me 3 weeks before i ordered the book from Mr Dusariev. and take me a full 1 years to dream( alot of dreaming), imagine, scrounge and obtain parts for my first 360. it has a Tokina 17mm on it. work Okay. but this second one will definitely work much better.
Here is some of my parts source
Zeiss folder Nettar 25-40 dollars from used market .
Pulleys i used a 1.25 inch pulleys cost less than 2 dollars each from Small parts Inc.
Orings Same above.
Motor i used a 12v gera head motor. i got from maplin $12-15 mine would give 12.5 rpm with 6 V and 24 Rpm with 12 V
Current Jameco catalog has Alot of new Gear head motor at the same price range. Jameco motor has less torque but it should be more than enough.
And a Leica screw mount retaining rings (5 buck) My local camera store promised to sell it to me for that price when he find it in his junk bin.
And of course your choice of wide angle lens. Tokina 17mm MF seems to be cheap enough or if you enjoy new toy like me A 15mm Heliar should fit the bill. BTW any of the wide angle could do it is just that the negative become too long.
The formula is Neg length = Focal length * 2 * 3.1416
I try to stay under 4 or 5 inches( 100mm - 125mm). Because i don't think that is photofinisher that has a 8x10 enlarger and will print for you inexpensively. Hope this help.
Sofjan mustopoh
Web site for 360er
http://www.panoramic.net/larscan/index.html
http://www.cyberbeach.net/~dbardell/panoptic.html
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Gallery/8874/
skp113@hotmail.com writes:
Dear Sofjan,
Your project, a homemade 360 pan-camera, sounds very interesting and ambitious. If you ever get the thing built, I hope you will share plans and your sourcelist (like for the gears, etc.).
Stan Patz NYC

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000
From: Marco Pauck pauck@wmd.de
To: Panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Horizon 202: Bad News
I just talk to Robert Wiese about the missing multi-coating of some of the latest Horizon 202s I've seen.
He called the factory and was told that they stopped production of the camera! In addition, the whole last production run (about 160 cameras) is without multi-coating.
Marco
--
Marco Pauck - WMD GmbH Hamburg, Germany - http://www.pauck.de/marco/

Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999
From: MIKE GRACE amazing50@hotmail.com
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: Pan roll paper recommendations?
Printers purchase all types of stock in roll form. These rolls feed high speed color copier type machines, that take layout from computer programs such as Photoshop. The problem is that the rolls weigh about 34kg. thats around 75lb. and depending on the paper weight can be 450m about 1500ft. long in the 30mm. 12.25 inch width. Quite a bit of paper and a lot of money to tie up. However at the end of a print job, if there is less than 10% of a roll left it is scrapped, because of the time required to change rolls once the job has started. I purchase these ends at a very reasonable rate from a local printer and cut them to any length I need. The printer also laminates my panos for a reasonable fee and his roll film laminator has no length restrictions.

Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999
From: Marco Pauck pauck@wmd.de
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: swing lens distortion
For a discussion of swing-lens 'distortion' with many examples, see
http://www.pauck.de/marco/photo/panorama/living_in_panoramic_format/living_in_pa noramic_format.html
and
http://www.fh-furtwangen.de/~dersch/perspective/Wide_Angle_Perspective.html
Marco

Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999
From: Philip Wang pwang1@home.com
Cc: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Use 35mm in a 220 camera to make paranoma pictures
Does anyone care to comment if it is feasible to use 35mm film in a 220 film back of a medium format camera?
It may be possible to take paranoma pictures 120/220 cameras if the 220 film back works with 35mm films. The only additional modification needed is to cover the approprieate part of the viewfinder window to make composing pictuer easier. Roll 35mm film into a 220 film holder is easy, and need to attach 220 film lead to the begining of 35mm film.
Here is the ratio for 6x6, 6x7, and 6x9 cameras:

6x6: 24x60mm, 1:2.5 6x7: 24x70mm, 1:2.9 6x9: 24x90mm, 1:3.7

I saw an example of adapting 35mm to 120 film using Russian Lubitel 120 camera. The advantage of using 220 film back is when rolling your own film there is less paper back needed - just need the lead and trailer paper, about 35 inches.
Thanks,
- philip

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999
From: Steve Shapiro sgshiya@redshift.com
Subject: Re: Panorama debate
Moving cameras and high resolution lenses don't mix.
The lenses considered flat plain lenses used ascopying lenses or enlarger lenses have a flatter front element and they can be useful for rotation cameras. Gauss type lenses or Daggor type Grandigon wide angles lenses with that design for extreme clarity and convex front element tend to distort when used on rotating pano cameras.
That's the advantage to those 'junk' lenses of Turner Reich design with flat plane, front elements and five elements cemented that distort light to the point where testing is a necessity to achieve exposure consistency.
I have a client in the group of the Pacific Grove Fire Department. Their captain is a once, professional photographer; and to please them is a 'no bullshit proposition.'
I have mobilized over a thousand men and failed on my exposures twice, now.
Testing at $50 per roll and $30 development, plus $48 FedEx is not an expense to take lightly.
I owe, I owe; and there are subscribers who know I owe.
For the two of them [truly my dear friends for the credit], let me haistly add, checks are in the mail; receivables are now made clear. Creditors be aware payments due soon.
Merry Christmas,
Steve Shapiro, Carmel, CA

[Ed. note: this camera is presumed sold, and listed here as an example of a custom panoramic - and its cost factors!]
From a Photonet Ad:
Nikonwide Custom Widefield 35mm Camera - $4500
advertised 4/1/2000 by Al Satterwhite
Nikonwide custom-built widefield camera 24mm x 108mm (frame= 4 1/4 inches) exactly 3 frames wide, 12 exposures per roll; this camera was built for me (using 2 Nikon FM bodies) by Mike Lawton, one of the best custom camera builders in the biz, to shoot billboards & gatefolds in advertising; I've used it in many ad campaigns (American Express, Salem, Saab, Johnson Outboard, to name a few); see my book "Satterwhite on Color and Design" for more pix of and by this camera. It comes with a 65mm f5.6 Schneider & 135mm f5.6 Nikkor lenses, Schneider Center ND, 2 Groundglasses, 10X Magnifier, Hassey Quik-Release foot; You can change lenses midroll with no loss of film; it has very accurate optical viewfinders built-in or you can use a ground glass for total accuracy; I even made a waist-level finder for low angle situations; there is virtually no distortion as this is a widefield camera not a panoramic camera. If you want to go extreme wide you can adapt the latest Rodenstock Grandagon 35mm f4.5 & 45mm f4.5 lenses since they cover over 125mm. The optics are pristine & clean, exhibiting excellent sharpness & contrast; the body is in very good condition; mechanically excellent. This camera cost me close to $15,000.

Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000
Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace.digital,rec.photo.marketplace
From: rrounsev@teleport.com (Roger)
Subject: Inexpensive Panorama Head
Why pay as much (or more!) for a panorama head as you did for your camera? While the professional pan heads are very nice, they are overkill for most people.
The expensive pan heads have adjustable positions for nodal point and lens offset. Mine are built for just one camera model. This means that my pan head needs no setup before it can be used. Just put it on your tripod, attach your camera and you're calibrated and ready to go!
I make my own pan heads in my craft shop from 1/4" polycarbonic plastic. I fabricate a rotating pivot that can be easily turned, but has enough stiffness to hold the camera firm for each photograph. Plus there's a bubble level that makes setup a quick and easy.
As a final touch, I make 16 marks on the pivot dial to indicate where to take each picture.
All this for only $49.99 plus shipping from Portland, Oregon.
At the moment, I have dimensions for making pan heads for these digital cameras:
Kodak DC220, DC240, DC260, DC265, DC280 Nikon Coolpix 950
Want one? See my web page at http://www.teleport.com/~rrounsev/ or contact me at rrounsev@teleport.com

From Panoramic Mailing List;
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000
From: Helmut Dersch der@fh-furtwangen.de
Subject: Spherical Java Viewer
Some example panos featuring PTViewer.java, a new tiny spherical java viewer (10kByte applet size):
http://www.fh-furtwangen.de/~dersch/Monp_ptvj.html
http://www.fh-furtwangen.de/~dersch/GCp_ptvj.html
http://www.fh-furtwangen.de/~dersch/StBp_ptvj.html

Pan using the mouse, and zoom using cursor up and down. I have tested the viewer on Netscape and IE on MacOS and Windows. Please provide feedback about problems and other platforms.
The viewer itself can be downloaded from
http://www.fh-furtwangen.de/~dersch/PTVJ.zip>.
It is free.
Helmut Dersch
-------------------------------------
Spherical Panoramas, Macro Panoramas,
Free Panorama Software:
http://www.fh-furtwangen.de/~dersch

From Panoramic Mailing List;
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000
From: Alan Zinn azinn@netbox.com
Subject: Re: New Guy
Trevor,
Check out my web pages for a rotating panoramic camera that will work anywhere. Generally rotating cameras are shot from a steady level platform. Not because they have to but because people are not used to curvey horizons in pictures. Check out the Larscan camera for a home brew 120 camera - links to IAPP and others on my pages.
Lookaround Panoramic Cameras and Gallery:
http://www.keva.com/lookaround
Panorama workshop 4/28-4/30
http://www.area360.com/workshop.html

[Ed. note: why hassy panoramic backs weren't big hits...]
From Hasselblad Mailing List:
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000
From: Frank Filippone red735i@earthlink.net
Subject: V35 Back on Hasselblad
First, notice the film in your blad rolls from top to bottom ( maybe it is bottom to top, it makes no difference.). Vertically. That is how the film transport works, vertically.
the 35 film is positioned VERTICALLY, in size 24x56mm. That means that the camera is great for VERTICAL panormics. TO use it on horizontal panoramics, you turn the camera 90 degrees. SOunds like duck soup..... try it, especiallly hand held. I think you will see why this was not one of the big hitters.
Price for these backs varies from about $350 to $700, used. They show up about monthly in some ad or another in Shutterbug.
I think the solution is to use a 12 or 24 or 16 or 32 back and just plain crop in the VF and on the final print. It is cheaper and gets around the issue of the crazy turning of the camera on its side.
I heard 2 stories on this back... the most likely was that there are many more types of film made for 35mm cameras, especially scientific emulsions. This back allows the use of those emulsions.
The other story us that soemone at Hasselblad thought the market would go crazy for this back. WRONG!
Frank Filippone
red735i@earthlink.net

From Panoramic List:
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000
From: David H Quackenbush dhq@juno.com
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: help
Most DIY stores carry ultra-sonic range finders. The Loew's in this area has a laser aimed range finder that is good to 60 feet, +- 1/4 inch. They carry a cheaper one that is good to 40 feet, and if you tape a pocket laser to it you can save 30-40 dollars.
Regards, David Quackenbush

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000
From: Peter Shute pshute@melbpc.org.au
Subject: Re: New Guy
Robert Erickson cirkut8@yahoo.com wrote:

>You already own a computer. Why not start with digital >stitched images. You will find free to try software at >http://www.panoramic.net/PanBusiness.htm

Another free one is at http://www.panoramafactory.com.
Peter Shute

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000
From: Andrew Fildes afildes@rabbit.com.au
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
If Greg Vanasse is still on this group -
Just picked up on your old message (11/98) about chopping a Mamiya press into a 6x12. Was this a Universal or an 'older' model i.e. a Standard. I have an old standard, a wretched old 6x7 back, and 50/65/75/100/127 lenses which I normally use on a Super 23. It would be fun to sacrifice the standard and back and the bodies are dirt cheap anyway but there seems to be a 11cm width limit as well as an internal baffle which could be a problem.
Would love to emulate your feat - how exactly did you do it and what have the results been like with the various lenses?

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000
From: ralph fuerbringer rof@mac.com
To: panorama-L@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: 69 to 612
andrew fildes asked about old mamiya for new 612 format. did some of that about1965. i found 47mmf5.6 super angulon would cover 612 so after cutting opposite ends off 2 mamiya backs i reassembled them on a 45 plate, clicked 66 twice. i spent 2 weeks and $100 ( $500 now). no eye appeal but long before first commercial 612 roll back. because of the deep focusing mt of the mamiya only the 127 and 75 mm lenses cover even 34 polaroid.
the graflex xl systen is lighter, more adaptable . its wide angle companion veriwide xl can do 612 wonders. using xl interfaces w/adjusted spacers i make the 612 vistashift with 35,45,55 apo-grandagon, 47xl the last 2 capable of shift 45 . all take polaroid too. shift i achieved by mounting lens and back each offset 1/2 the max shift available.
reverse the back: max shift, no extra weight.
fifteen years ago for philip griffith jones i spaced an xl wa body on a cambo frame. the 58mm grandagon and 100 tessar interchange in the focusing mt, cover 45 as well as the 612. xl's own focus mt no good in cold.
-- rof

Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000
From: Simon Nathan simonwide@earthlink.net
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: 69 to 612
since we don't put photographs on the list, for anyone who is cottoning 6x12 back i can snailmail version i have that goes on graflok back. the magazine was done in japan by nikon prototype shop, then beauty camera, and graflok part by wizards at marty forscher's. earlier, mine was cobbled and used on 6x12 slr for while. the graflok was done to make one aerial photo by caroll seegers III,1976, and whom i've never met. put address in block form and i'll copy it onto envelope. my 6x17 magazines precede the 6x12. i have two scanners hooked up but need more lessons on their use. i simply photocopy the mags, forscher plate. simon nathan from behind his rock near the wendy's in east orange, new jersey, usa.

From panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000
From: Robert Monaghan rmonagha@post.cis.smu.edu
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: re: Longfellow camera and misc homebrew panos
the ensigns were picked because they were cheap in the UK (around $20 US each) all metal camera bodies which could easily be chopped and mated end to end to produce a long film channel body. Nothing sacred about them at all.
Probably a few come up on EBAY now and again, but there is also a usenet group of UK photo groups, where a WTB ad might turn some up cheaply ;-) Any metal body 120 rollfilm camera you can buy two of, to match up exactly, would probably work similarly - viewfinder models cheaper and simpler=better?
You can also check my site's IMPACT Used Photo Gear Dealers pages at http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/mf/albro.html with hundreds of dealers listed; the photonet ad board of Phil Greenspun is also a good site to post WTB ads; I was lucky enough to get a Nimslo 3D camera for $20 ppd with manuals for conversion from a WTB ad there to use per Andrew Davidhazy's article on converting this 72mm long 35mm camera (21x72mm) see http://www.rit.edu/~andpph/text-nimslo.html - the Nimslo is an all metal body, originally $229 US priced, now obsolete but with a nifty 72mm long film channel that makes it the perfect easy to modify 35mm film small pano!
the longfellow 6x18cm article I saw was in the British Journal of Photography, by Roger Hicks at BJP Jan 15, 1997 issue, a few pages describing and showing the final Longfellow 6x18cm camera and info about the coverage and the fact that a 90mm f/6.8 angulon (not super angulon, the cheaper older version) would cover 6x17cm or even 6x18cm, depending on how you put the bodies together. Interesting, but too much metal work for me (I'm an EE in telecom and software engr grad student, not in ME ;-) So I'm using some older film format camera models for "conversion", hence the larger film channel, hence the ability to use "film shifting" per past posting...
basically, any metal body low cost 120 (or 620?) format camera pair which can be stripped down, hack-sawed and filed/sanded flat edges, then drilled and screwed together (plus black epoxy..) will convert them into a long film back with large format leaf shutter lens on the front ;-) About 90% of the expense is in the lens and shutter, plus maybe $100 US for the rest of the metal work lens to body mount plus the 2 startup camera bodies ($20-25 each?). A modest plus is the cameras don't have to work; lenses may be frozen etc. and it won't impact results but lower costs.
Bob has some interesting ideas on hacking a pano too, see his 6x12cm at http://bigcamera.com/articles/6x12x4x5.htm - he is using a 4x5 camera back and regular film holders plus mamiya front end, nifty, esp with wide angles being so cheap among the mamiya press cameras etc...
Doug Bardell's panos are also worth reviewing; see:
http://www.cyberbeach.net/~dbardell/alternat.html
I especially liked learning that the low cost Agfa Isolette lenses will cover 6x9cm which makes them possible candidates for the Nimslo-3D lenses; the 72mm channel will be longer than the Xpan, so should be interesting ;-)
regards bobm
* Robert Monaghan POB752182 Dallas Tx 75275-2182 rmonagha@post.cis.smu.edu *
* Medium Format Cameras: http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/mf/index.html megasite*
On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, Stan Patz wrote:

> >the Longfellow 6x17cm (or 18cm) joining the pair of Ensign 620s used the > >older and cheaper 90mm f/6.8 angulon (not super) > > Dear Robert, > > A few years ago I read an article in Shutterbug about the "Longfellow". I > would be interested in building one but cannot find suitable donor cameras - > e.g. Ensign 620s? Do you know a source?

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999
From: "Kerry L. Thalmann" K.Thalmann@worldnet.att.net
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: panoramic cameras
Just in case anyone is still following this thread...
Since Bob S. insisted I shop around to try to find a better price (than I was originally quoted from B&H;) on the Linhf 617, I also checked prices on the Fuji. As I previously posted, I did find the Linhof 617 IIIs with 90mm lens and finder at Wall Steet Camera for $5495. The lowest price I've found on the Fuji GX617 with 90mm lens and finder is $4508 from Camera Crazy (in San Francisco). Both of those are sunstantially lower than the B&H; prices I originally posted, and in spite of Bob's claim that:
"And the 617 SIII with either the 72 or the 90 is currently LESS than the Fuji with a 90mm."
I have yet to find any dealer selling the Linhof for less than the comparably equipped Fuji. In fact, the lowest price I have been quoted on the Linhof is still hundreds more than the highest price I have found on the Fuji. The Linhof is a great camera (so is the Fuji) and at $5495 it is a bargain compared to previous pricing, but Bob's claim that it is cheaper than the Fuji is incorrect and very misleading to anyone in the market for a 6x17 camera. As always, it pays to be an informed shopper and not just believe everything the salesman tells you.
Kerry
--
Kerry L. Thalmann Large Format Images of Nature
A Few of My Images Online at: http://www.thalmann.com/

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999
From: "Bob Salomon" bobsalomon@mindspring.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: panoramic cameras
You found a grey market Fuji, or a used Fuji or a demo Fuji but no dealer sells the US imported current Fuji for that much below his cost. Did you verify why that one dealer was so cheap?
--
bobsalomon@mindspring.com http://www.hpmarketingcorp.com/

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999
From: "Kerry L. Thalmann" K.Thalmann@worldnet.att.net
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: panoramic cameras
.....
I'm getting tired of calling around checking prices for your benefit. Your initial claim that:
"And the 617 SIII with either the 72 or the 90 is currently LESS than the Fuji with a 90mm."
is out and out false. As I said above, the LOWEST price I've been quoted on the Linhof is hundreds of dollars more than the HIGHEST price I've been quoted on the Fuji. You have yet to provide any data to back up your claim that the Linhof is cheaper. Why, because it is not. Your statement was false when you made it and it still is, but then I'm sure you knew that. So why not just admit it.
To anyone looking for a much more affordable entry into the 6x17 format, here's another option:
The ArtPan 6x17 body accepts standard large format lenses from 75mm - 120mm. The body is available new from Badger Graphic for $1495 including viewfinder mask and lens mount in your choice of focal lengths (75, 90 or 120). The 90mm f8 Nikkor SW is available new for $839.95 (US warranty) or $789.95 (direct import) from B&H.; Badger Graphic also sells the Fuji 90mm f8 for $789. So, it is possible to get a brand new 6x17 camera with a 90mm lens and viewfinder for as low as $2284. The ArtPan is not as elegant a design as the Linhof or Fuji, but they all focus by guestimating distance anyway. It is certainly useable, and has the added advantage of accepting standard large format lenses of any brand rather than outrageously priced lenses in dedicated helical focusing mounts. It uses a knob driven lead screw for distance scale focusing and comes with an integral ground glass to check fine focus.
For about $500 less than the cost of the Linhof with the 90mm lens, it is possible to buy a new ArtPan body and three new US warranty lenses (75mm f5.5 Nikkor SW, 90mm f8 Nikkor SW and 120mm Super Symmar HM - the latter should outperform any of the dedicated lenses for either the Linhof or Fuji). If you don't mind gray market lenses, you can save another $400 or so on the glass.
Kerry
--
Kerry L. Thalmann Large Format Images of Nature
A Few of My Images Online at: http://www.thalmann.com/

Date: 23 Jun 1999
From: heavysteam@aol.com (Heavysteam)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Fuji GX617 Panoramic?
Just some notes on panoramic photography:
Some folks are incorrectly identifying types of panoramic cameras and their capabilities. Here's a breifing:
Fixed lens-- Conventional view and rollfilm cameras with wide angle lenses and panorama film formats. These work by masking the edges of a wide angle, large image circle lens to a panoramic format. Tend to minimize linear distortion but usually require a center filter (with about two f-stops of loss) to even the light falloff inherent with WA lenses. Fuji 617, Horseman & Linhoff 612, Linhoff 617, Art Panorama, V Pan, etc.. Field of view is usually about 80 - 110 degrees.
Swing lens- Camera with a lens that swings in an arc and exposes the film through a corresponding scanning slit. The film is pulled around an arc as well. Doesn't need ultrawide angle lens so light falloff is not a problem, and corner to corner sharpness is excellent, but the curved film plane causes severe barrel distortion that is readily apparent, especially in horizontal lines. Must be carefully leveled to reduce distortion. Widelux, Noblex, Horizon are popular brands, both 35mm and 120 film.
Rotating-- The entire camera rotates on a base and the film is transported behind a scanning slit to make the exposure. Even though the film plane seems flat, it is moved through space in an arc so the same barrel distortion appears as with the swing lens camera. These cameras usually offer coverage of 90 degrees to 360 degrees and some can turn until the film runs out for exposures of more than 360 degrees. No center filters needed, and some rotating cameras are very sophisticated with computer controls and large film sizes like 70mm. Old Kodak Cirkut cameras fit this type and film is still available, with some very astounding sizes (10" high or higher) and they can be cranky, but you can make large contact prints from the resulting negative. (And kodak still sells film for them.) Some rotating camera brands --- Roundshot, Spinshot, Alpa.
VR Immersion-- There are new camera attachments that take shots with fisheye lenses and use computer software to produce virtual reality images that you can move around in your computer. Interesting technology to watch.
Other notes: The Meehan book noted in a previous post is a must and gives great information about panoramic photography. Most important, you can see similar shots taken with different cameras and gauge the effects of distortion yourself. Don't buy a panorama camera before you read this book.
Miscellaneous: The Hasselblad V-Pan is not a Hasselblad (made by Fuji), nor is it a panoramic camera. Yes, it has a wide film format, but a very limited field of view (about 74 degrees) with the WA lens, which hardly qualifies as panoramic. For $2000-plus cost of the V-Pan you can buy a good used 35 mm camera with much better lenses (Contax G1) AND a Noblex Prosport 35mm swing lens camera for the best of both worlds.
Unless you do your own prints, there aren't many places that can handle full-frame 35mm panorama shots. 120 film is worse. The new HP film scanner can scan up to five frame wide 35mm shots, though, and goes for under $500.

From panoramic mailing List;
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999
From: "David N. Horn" dh@bell-labs.com
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: 6x17 back on 4 by 5 camera: Yes!
You could mount a 6cmx17cm back on a 4" by 5" camera - it just has to have some extra depth, and have its own ground glass focusing screen.
Horseman had (has?) a 8" by 10" back for their VHR 4 by 5 camera. Same principle. Think of the camera as a focusing lens mount.
Dave Horn

>How can a 6x17cm back work on a 4x5" (10.2 x 12.7cm) camera? >Or should that read 6x12? >I like cheap solutions, but not when they conflict with simple >math....;-))

Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999
From: Willem-Jan Markerink w.j.markerink@a1.nl
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Hulcherama register addendum
Mmm....I have been measuring my TS-E 24mm....for those not familiar with it, the rear part of the housing (not the lens or any optical part of it!) can be switched 90 degree by removing 4 screws, to allow tilt and shift either in-line, or perpendicular (factory setting is perpendicular).
After those 4 screws are removed (Canon tells you to send it to their Service Department, but it is really a piece of cake), the rear part (including lens mount) is only attached to the rest by a flat data cable....and guess what, the rear part is 21mm deep, measured from mount-flange to mating surface.
All it takes is a lens mount with the same 4 screw holes, and the entire lens sits 21mm deeper all at once. Add 1-2mm for correct focus, and the game can start....:-))
Okay, okay, that flat cable has to be taken care off....sad side-effect is that one can't control the aperture without having access to (and mount the lens on) an EOS camera....but a 'hot swap' will keep the aperture fixed on its latest setting.
Nothing a stubborn soul couldn't solve....:-))
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink

Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000
From: "L. J. Powell" ljpowel@banet.net
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Inexpensive, homebrew 6x17 panoramic?
Becca Stephens wrote:

> Is it possible to inexpensively use an old Speed Graphic with a rollfilm > back to make an inexpensive panoramic camera? Or would a 6x18 rollfilm > back be too expensive or impossible to find? > > Or should I just consider buying one of those cheap Russian Horizon pan > cameras?

The greatest challenge would be in finding a suitable panaramic rollfilm back.
But there is a simple solution - buy some used 4x5 film holders, shoot on 4x5 film, but mask down and print the panaramic format.
--
Louie J. Powell, APSA
Glenville, NY USA
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Maison/7881/

Date: 08 Apr 2000
From: dkfletcher@aol.com (DKFletcher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Inexpensive, homebrew 6x17 panoramic?
both are home made panoramics:
http://members.aol.com/dkfletcher/panoramics.jpg

Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000
From: Jay Bender jay@benderphoto.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Inexpensive, homebrew 6x17 panoramic?
The cheapest solution is to use our 2x5 panoramic adapter for standard 4x5 film holders.
http://www.benderphoto.com/2x5pa.htm
--
Jay Bender
Bender Photographic, Inc.: http://www.benderphoto.com

Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000
From: Rebeccs@hotmail.com (Becca Stephens)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Inexpensive, homebrew 6x17 panoramic?
Clive Warren consult-interact@cableinet.co.uk wrote:

> The cheapest and probably best option is to use an old Speed Graphic > 4x5 with sheet film and crop the negative.

But:
* there are @many@ more film choices with rollfilm
* 4x5 film is more expensive per shot
* rollfilm shooting is faster/easier

> The pano roll film backs are hideously expensive new and used.

That's what I was afraid of. :( I'm surprised more affordable solutions aren't more easily available.

> The Russion cameras are fine to use for 35mm but the results from a > 4x5 format will of course be superior due to the larger negative.

True. But I rented an Xpan a few weeks ago and ran several rolls through it, and I LOVED IT! $1800 is way beyond what I can afford right now, though. So, since an inexpensive Speed Graphic 6x17 doesn't seem to be plausible, I think I may look into a Horizon....

Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000
From: "Ken Iisaka" kiisaka@pacbell.net
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format,rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Inexpensive, homebrew 6x17 panoramic?
....

> But: > * there are @many@ more film choices with rollfilm > * 4x5 film is more expensive per shot > * rollfilm shooting is faster/easier

But, you don't need many more film choices. You just need the right films to be available. To me, film selection was not an issue. I can get all my favourite films: Ilford Delta 100, 400, FP4, Fujichrome Velvia, and Kodak Technical Pan in all sizes from 35mm to 4x5.

> True. But I rented an Xpan a few weeks ago and ran several rolls through > it, and I LOVED IT! $1800 is way beyond what I can afford right now, > though. So, since an inexpensive Speed Graphic 6x17 doesn't seem to be > plausible, I think I may look into a Horizon....

Also, consider that Horizon is a special purpose camera with limited uses. A Speed Graphic can produce 4x5" negatives which you can crop to obtain decent "panoramic" images, while it can also produce excellent 4x5" negatives or transparencies. 6x17cm will also require a 5x7 enlarger which is harder to find.
Unless you shoot hundreds if not thousands per year, the additional cost of 4x5 film is small compared to additional expense of specialised equipment.

Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000
From: Bob Salomon robertsalomon@mindspring.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Price on a Linhof 617?
Very poor reference you found.
The XL was used on the last 2 dozen 617 fixed lens cameras sold in the US as well as on the current versions. All others had the non XL lens and that includes cameras from the end of the 90s.
Get a serial number or call me at 800 735 4373 with a good description such as the number of accessory shoes on top, color of the lens, frame counter capacity (4 or 8 exp), MC on lens etc.
--

www.hpmarketingcorp.com for links to our suppliers
HP Marketing Corp. U.S. distributor for Braun, Gepe, Giottos, Heliopan, HP Combi Plan T, Kaiser fototechnik, KoPho cases, Linhof, Pro Release, Rimowa, Rodenstock, Sirostar 2000, Tetenal Ink Jet Papers

> From: "mikiten" mikiten@swbell.net > Organization: SBC Internet Services > Reply-To: "mikiten" mikiten@swbell.net > Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format > Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 08:24:59 -0500 > Subject: Re: Price on a Linhof 617? > > I just check the archives and got some good information on the camera. This > appears to be an older version (78' or so?) since it doesn't have the XL > lens. Thoughts on pricing? Brian

Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000
From: Glenn Barry dglenn@acay.com.au
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re:
Hi Andrew,
I am looking for some 6x9 backs and am at present not having much luck, would you know of a source anywhere in Australia? or O.S. for that matter, anyone?
On the subject of cutting a darkslide, I have done so with a 5x4 and it works very well. It would be wise to get a non metal one to work with and also leave your press ones intact, you can get 6x9 DD Slides for a couple of dollars each at Photantiques up here in Sydney in Stanmore, let me know if you need the full details.
Glenn

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000
From: "Lyndon Fletcher (UAB)" Lyndon.Fletcher@uab.ericsson.se
Subject: RE: lens coverage, selection, cost.. was why Re: actual vs ratio sizes

> the Longfellow 6x17cm (or 18cm) joining the pair of Ensign > 620s used the > older and cheaper 90mm f/6.8 angulon (not super); evidently, > it hits 150mm > coverage wide open (and the 156mm format used in the camera > nicely); the > builder was also president of the MPP large format group in > Britain, if I > recall the article text correctly. From my camera hacking > point of view, > the cheaper lens makes it economical to hack a panoramic camera with > greater coverage, so collecting such factoids and info on actual film > gate sizes is handy ;-)

I think there may be more to this Bob. The Ensigns were one of the few small folding cameras to move the whole lens to focus (ie unit not cell focusing.) This allowed a wider selection of donor lenses for projects because you didn't have to find a lens in a focusing barrel. The 620 and 820 Ensigns are actually pretty rare these days because Ross didn't do at all well in the 1950's against perceived "superior" German opposition. I suppose in theory there is little to gain in a focusable panoramic, perhaps you could use any camera and set the lens on infinity focus.
Has anyone considered an old half plate camera as a doner? I have one and the body is aluninium diecast. It wouldn't even need to be stretched that much if a way could be found to add in a film transport.
Lyndon

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000
From: David Hibbeln dhibbeln@tccpa.net
Subject: Horizon 202
Does anyone know of this camera or this website?
Is there a different source?
URL: http://www.russia2all.com/
(snip)
In the world of panoramic cameras the Horizon 202 distinguishes itself for its high product quality and for its economic price. It is entertaining, easy-to-use, and of high optical quality, and boasts a legion of enthusiasts who wouldn't dream of leaving home without it. The Horizon 202 is a panoramic swing lens camera which exposes 24x58mm images onto standard 35mm film.

Film type 35mm Image size 24x58 mm Lens 28mm f2.8 Focusing scale from 0.5 m to infinity Panoramic angle 120 Aperture scale f2.8 to f16 Shutter speeds (seconds) High: 1/250, 1/125, 1/60 Low: 1/8, 1/4, 1/2 Overall dimensions, mm 117.5x146x73 (snip)

David R. Hibbeln
IT Director - Tobin & Collins CPA PA

From panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000
From: Joe McCary mccary@erols.com
Subject: Re: Horizon 202
A website for a camera... I have this link that may be of some help. It is more of a manual for the 202. http://www.dedal.cz/optics/operating_manuals/horizon-202_manual.htm I have no connection to the site
Joe McCary

Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format
From: mr_wratten@hotmail.com (Mr. Wratten)
Subject: Re: Inexpensive, homebrew 6x17 panoramic?
Rebeccs@hotmail.com (Becca Stephens) wrote:

>Is it possible to inexpensively use an old Speed Graphic with a rollfilm >back to make an inexpensive panoramic camera? Or would a 6x18 rollfilm >back be too expensive or impossible to find? > >Or should I just consider buying one of those cheap Russian Horizon pan >cameras?

Judging from the other posts, you want to shoot rollfilm in a larger format than is normally available (6x9). You discuss using a Speed Graphic, which can only shoot up to 4x5 in, or 10x12 cm. You say you don't want to use sheet film. So, here are my suggestions:
1. Find a good 112 roll film Kodak from a long time ago (5x7 film format) and modify the camera to take 120 roll film (not too hard, but cameras are very old).
2. Find a good 122 roll film camera (3.25 x 5.25 film format). A Kodak 3A, for example. Modify to take 120 roll film. Again, cameras are very old. May have problems such as leaky bellows, etc.
3. Find a good Polaroid roll-film camera (model 150, 800, 900), modify to take 120 roll film. A slightly more involved modification, but only slightly.
Film format is about 3.25x4.25. You also get rangefinder focus with this modification. Cameras are very cheap ($10 or so) and high quality, but exposure system is rudimentary. You could also find a Pathfinder (110, 110A, or 110B) that has not been modified into a pack film camera (they have "normal" lens/shutters as opposed to the Polaroid EV exposure system). Buy a 110 as opposed to am A or B model, they are harder to modify into pack-film cameras and are cheaper for that reason (usually less that $100).
4. Find a good 116 or 616 roll film camera, modify to take 120 film. Film format is 2.5x4.25. The easiest modification, discussed here:
http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/bronfilms.html
Good luck,
Jim

Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000
From: Joe Durante jandvd@wtco.net
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: rumors of new medium format horizon? RE: Horizon 202
Robert Monaghan wrote:

> Within the last few months, I have seen a posted note about a planned > medium format version of the Horizon series, but no followup on any of > the logical groups (kiev88 etc. newsgroups)... > > has anyone heard about such possible new medium format versions of the > Horizon? Granted all the issues with Q/C, but a new lower cost swing lens > camera has its attractions ;-) > > thanks! bobm > > * Robert Monaghan POB752182 Dallas Tx 75275-2182rmonagha@post.cis.smu.edu *

I contacted Silvestri in Italy earlier this month, "no set release date, but possibly within a few months" --Horizon 205
Joe

Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000
From: Stan Patz skp113@hotmail.com
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: RE: Horizon 202
To Christophe and the group,
I would advise caution to anyone contemplating buying a Horizon 202.
It is a compact, attractive little thing that is capable of making very nice images - and it is inexpensive too. However, I think it is poorly made or that the Rusky quality control is non-existent.
I am now working on my third issue. The first failed catastrophically while I was traveling in Mexico; the advance gears slipped and overlapped most of my pictures. On the second issue the speed indicator (the device for setting shutter speeds) floated around from time to time, such that I never really knew what speed the camera was set to. I now have a third camera and the advance lever disengages at the slightest provocation.
Maybe I am just unlucky, but you should cover your ass by getting a money back guarantee!
Stan Patz NYC

Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000
From: Marco Pauck pauck@wmd.de
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: rumors of new medium format horizon? RE: Horizon 202
Robert Monaghan wrote:

> Within the last few months, I have seen a posted note about a planned > medium format version of the Horizon series, but no followup on any of > the logical groups (kiev88 etc. newsgroups)... > > has anyone heard about such possible new medium format versions of the > Horizon? Granted all the issues with Q/C, but a new lower cost swing lens > camera has its attractions ;-)

Citing from by Horizon page:
"The larger cousin of the Horizon 202 is the 205PC that uses medium format film (120) and also includes a shift lens 3.5/50mm which covers an image format of 55x110mm. However, this model doesn't seem to have productions status yet. Only a few models were shown on fairs and even fewer have been sold. (NB: A similar faith has the Kiev 90 (the to-be successor of the Kiev 88) that has kept the prototype status over several years, probably due to severe design or manufacturing problems. Considering the problems that are existing even for long-term production models such as the Kiev 88 this implies nothing good ...)."
I actually had one of these beasts in my hands some months ago. It was (as you may expect ;-) huge and heavy but it was also quite expensive (can't remember exactly how much). The dealer said that it's more a 'collector's item'. That probably meant that it didn't work at all ... ;-)
Marco
see http://www.pauck.de/archive/mailinglist/htdig/htsearch.cgi?words=horizon+205pc&c; onfig=mailinglist

Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000
From: Simon Nathan simonwide@earthlink.net
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: mamiya good starting point.
andrew- put your snailmail address in block form so that i can lift it onto envelope and you'll receive from me large john west drawing plus two part 1970 popular photography columns on doing similar in 1964. good luck. my camera started from mamiya standard and was sectioned. magazines spliced together to make 6x18cm.
simon nathan
Andrew Fildes wrote:

> I'm a Mamiya Press user and lucky enough to ownn the 50 and 75 lenses. I > had been thinking about how I could use the large circle of the 75, which > was designed to cover a full Polaroid frame plus more, by hacking a Press > body. It then occurred to me that simply by cutting a darkslide as a mask > for a 6x9 back, I could expose two 24 x 85 strips on a 6x9 frame, upper and > lower and then hand cut them for scanning. As the camera has no interlocks, > double exposure is usually a problem rather than an opportunity. > Has anyone tried this? It seems a cheap way to me to achieve 35mm panoramas > with a better result than most dedicated 35mm panoramic cameras which seem > to have frame widths in the high 50's. > Andrew > PS - I'm in Melbourne - anyone know where I can get 120 or 35mm pans > scanned at a reasonable price locally or, at least, in Oz?

Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000
From: "M. Denis Hill" denis@area360.com
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: 1/2 slide
I use a Bender half slide in a 4x5 view camera for shots requiring lenses I don't have in my "real" panoramic cameras. There are just two caveats: modify your slide leaving enough material to fill the light trap of the film holder, and carefully insert the slide straight!
M. Denis Hill
Area 360 Communications
http://www.area360.com

Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000
From: Christophe GLAUDEL cglaudel@netforce.fr
Reply to: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: RE: Horizon 202
You're not unlucky, the most of the models does get a trouble (advance as yours, rotating irregular, risk of broken pieces, etc...= I may consider (saddly) Horizon new model as a camera toy. Noblex 35 & 120 Format, apx.150 Degrees Of Vision heve to stay on consideration. also Widelux, Al-Vista are strong values But I saw slides made with a second hand Widelux and zones bars was truly visible...
Have a look to :
http://www.pauck.de/marco/photo/panorama/horizon202/horizon202.html
Horizon report and Versus widelus and Noblex
Noblex factory in Dresde (Ex-east Germany)
http://www.kamera-werk-dresden.de/
I was in Kiev two weeks ago and did not found any horizon. Horizon are only available in Moskow camera shops
In Ukraine, it is very easy to find Kiev88 models (Hasselblad 1000's copy) for approx US$ 100 - 150
Chris

> To Christophe and the group, > I would advise caution to anyone contemplating buying a Horizon 202. > Maybe I am just unlucky, but you should cover your ass by getting a money > back guarantee! > Stan Patz NYC

Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000
From: Bill Cameta photo@cameta.com
To: CAMETAUPDATES cametaupdates@laser.sparklist.com
Subject: New Arrivals
ALPA 12S/WA(Shift/Wide Angle) Brand New Medium Format Camera System With Built-In Perspective Control(Extremely Smooth Ball-And Roller-Bearing Shift Movement Up To 25mm) With The ALPAs Uncompromising Regard For Reliability, Precision & Simplicity "... It Is Unlikely That Any Camera On Earth Delivers Higher Quality From A Given Format..." Includes: Schneider Super-Angulon 58mm f5.6 Lens In Compur 0 Shutter(B, 1-1/500 / Filter Thread: M67 x 0.75), Extremely Bright Five-Element 120Y Viewfinder Made In Switzerland Exclusively For ALPA With Built-In Spirit Level Visible In Viewfinder & Adjustable Diopter Correction, Linhof Super-Rollex 6x9/120 film(8 Exposures) Roll Film Back, ALPA Focusing Screen(Holder & Screen), Ergonomically Shaped Solid Wood Hand Grip, Nylon Reinforced Leather Neck-Strap. This Is A Brand New Camera With Warranty Papers.(ALPAs Website Price For Same Items is $8849). Cameta Super Special Price $6499.

Date: Sat, 08 Apr 00
From: w.j.markerink@a1.nl (Willem-Jan Markerink)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format,rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Inexpensive, homebrew 6x17 panoramic?
Rebeccs@hotmail.com (Becca Stephens) wrote:

>Is it possible to inexpensively use an old Speed Graphic with a rollfilm >back to make an inexpensive panoramic camera? Or would a 6x18 rollfilm >back be too expensive or impossible to find? > >Or should I just consider buying one of those cheap Russian Horizon pan >cameras?

While 6x17/18 converting backs do exist for 4x5" (simply extending the back several inches backwards), you would no longer be able to use short focal lenghts (too much effective bellows extension), and most people want wide-angle effects, not tele.
That said, a Horizon 202 is on the very other end of the scale, with 24x58mm frame size, for less than US$400....see my homepage for a bunch of info about the 202, including pictorial samples:
http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/mainpage.htm
Also consider subscribing to the Panorama Photography Mailinglist (see PhotoForum link on my homepage for an overview of photo related mailinglists, including a nifty mail-to: form for direct subscription).
Btw, I also currently have a Noblex 150 for sale, 120/220 format, 5x12cm image size; US$1600 or make me an offer I can't refuse....;-))
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink

Date: Sun, 09 Apr 00
From: w.j.markerink@a1.nl (Willem-Jan Markerink)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format,rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Inexpensive, homebrew 6x17 panoramic?
"John Stafford" John@Stafford.net wrote:

>Becca Stephens Rebeccs@hotmail.com wrote > >> As I pointed out in another message, I prefer the ease of use, speed of >> use, and greater choice of film that comes from rollfilm. I was just >> hoping that there was a solution using an old Speed Graphic that enabled >> me to inexpensively get into 6x17 panoramic photography. > >If you find a way, please do share it. > >Speed Graphics are commonly 5" in width, which is too short, and the 5x7 >(17cm) version is rather rare, the bed might interfere and I am not aware of >any 17cm-wide rollfilm transports. Fabricating a 17cm transport would be >quite a challenge and I strongly doubt that it would provide ease of use >compared to using a 5x7 with an internal mask because such a transport would >probably be quite large (to keep film flat), and you would still have only >about 4 frames per roll. Bummer, eh?

6x17 cameras exist (Linhof, Fuji), and so does a certain (or more?) 5x7 adapter for 4x5 cameras....simply a huge extension backwards (limiting the choice of (wideangle) lenses of course, which would normally defeat the purpose of panorama....8-)) Not sure who makes these 5x7 adapters.
Btw, 220 format would allow 8 shots....this even sortof works with the Noblex 150 (not meant for 220, but just fire one shot between 6/S and 1, which makes 11 shots instead of the usual 6).
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000
From: Peter Marshall petermarshall@cix.co.uk
Subject: RE: Horizon 202

> A friend of mine (a russian one) whom I asked infos about How to buy a > Horizon camera told me that now (for 2 years env) the price of such a > camera > is the same approximatively rather than years ago (three to four time > the > price in west europa rather than in Moskow). > The other trouble with horizon (even 202 s) is that the camera often > have a > problem after some months of use. > It means it seems to be not interesting to purchase this type of camera > that > does not resist to a normal use. > A more reasonable decision is to but a Widelux one or another type (a > german > mark also) of rotating camera. > Christophe Glaudel > > > Does anyone know of this camera or this website? > > Is there a different source? > > URL: http://www.russia2all.com/

Quite a few of us her use them. I have a Widelux and a Horizon, and greatly prefer the Horizon (which cost about a third as much.) The Widelux is better built, metal rather than plastic, but much less convenient in most ways. I only use it when the extra 10 degrees or so it gives is important - you can cover 360 degrees with 3 shots rather than 4 for example. The Horizon has a better range of speeds, and is also sharp to infinity at moderate apertures - you need to use my Horizon at f11 to acheive this. The Horizon viewfinder is so much better - brighter, more accurate and has a spirit level in it. With the Widelux you need to use the arrows on the top to decide what will be in your picture.
Peter Marshall
Photography guide at About.com http://photography.about.com/
email: photography.guide@about.com

Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000
From: "M. Denis Hill" denis@area360.com
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: RE: 1/2 slide
Now that you mention it, I knew a photographer in Southern California who took the cut-out approach. In fact, she bought my V-Pan. Anyway, she told me that she sometimes had trouble with the slide hanging up on the far edge of the opening when she removed the mask. She used an extra sheet of 4x5 film as a guide to prevent the mask/slide from catching on the light trap. This also argues for taking really good care of the mask to prevent bending it.
M. Denis Hill
Area 360 Communications

Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000
From: Ari Pesonen ari.pesonen@mail.wwnet.fi
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: rumors of new medium format horizon? RE: Horizon 202
The camera can be seen at http://www.zenit-foto.ru/eng/news.htm
AriP.

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000
From: Robert Monaghan rmonagha@post.cis.smu.edu
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: homebrew panos RE: lens coverage - any plate camera conversions?
Hi Lyndon;
RE: longfellow and ensigns the article in BJP already cited suggested the ensigns were chosen as they were cheap all metal cameras and readily available in the UK (prices circa 20 brit. pounds?); the cameras were stripped and chopped; only the film channel related pieces were kept, not the lens mounts or finder; the lens goes into a metal mount screwed onto joined bodies with lens and shutter at one end, very similar in look and design to fuji G617 to my eyes. Most of these cameras are nice, modest cost, but frankly too much work and mechanical finesse for me or most of us ;-)
your plate camera conversion idea would be interesting, but a rollfilm camera seems an easier starting point. The ideal would be the Kodak #4A which would be long enough for 18cm (versus the actual 15.6cm of the so-called "17cm" panoramic cameras, based on McKeown's film charts and my memory ;-) But that camera is collectible at $400 US, and out of the casual hacker league. I don't know of any cheaper ones using the same long roll-film format until you get to the aerial or torpedo specialty ones
the Kodak #3A series is the basis for my 6x14cm "postcard panoramic"; or you could go with a more compact Kodak #1A for 6x12cm, but lose the option of film shifting I previously discussed/posted. These cameras have the advantage of being cheap and common, meaning $25 US buys one on EBAY ;-) For that money, you get the 3 1/2" x 5 1/4" film channel and winding mechanics, the bellows (often with pinholes that need black wetsuit adhesive filling-up), a foldout lens standard, and lens and shutter (for other projects if you elect to mount a 90mm f/6.8 angulon instead of the longer lens on it now) - just load film and you have a 2:1 pano for $25! ;-)
another interesting pan hacking option would be a stereo camera using rollfilm; but here again, the cameras seem to all be collectibles ;-( You would have to replace the bellows and dual lens mount standard, but might end up with a longer film channel in the long panoramic 16cm and 18cm range and up in a few cases...
I wonder what goodies the Russians might have that could be converted; the recent russian panoramic rollfilm back sale on ebay of 6x18.5cm back http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item;=301965526 - is interesting (vs actual 15.6cm for a 6x17cm length back?) - again, I haven't seen much info or online sources on these russian panoramic items?
the plate cameras seem sufficiently big that you might as well take a 4x5" and Bender pano-back kit and do that, or simply cut film in half with a standard film holder, much cheaper than a custom back is not as nifty I'd be interested in learning more about any quarter plate or similar conversions, but I suspect it would be easier/cheaper and more flexible to just get a non-collectible calumet c-400/440 and go from there?
Has anybody actually converted a plate camera, and with what results? ;-)
regards bobm
quote:
I think there may be more to this Bob. The Ensigns were one of the few small folding cameras to move the whole lens to focus (ie unit not cell focusing.) This allowed a wider selection of donor lenses for projects because you didn't have to find a lens in a focusing barrel. The 620 and 820 Ensigns are actually pretty rare these days because Ross didn't do at all well in the 1950's against perceived "superior" German opposition. I suppose in theory there is little to gain in a focusable panoramic, perhaps you could use any camera and set the lens on infinity focus.
Has anyone considered an old half plate camera as a doner? I have one and the body is aluninium diecast. It wouldn't even need to be stretched that much if a way could be found to add in a film transport. Lyndon

Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000
From: Andy Buck buckwiet@yahoo.com
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: actual vs ratio sizes
Bob -
Every Fuji 6x17 I've seen was 56x168, not 156. Which ones are 156?
Also, the Horseman 6x12 is 56x112.
And the back for sale on eBay at
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item;=301965526
certainly looks like a torpedo back to me.
Andy

Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000
From: Robert Monaghan rmonagha@post.cis.smu.edu
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: torpedo camera pages etc. Re: actual vs ratio sizes
thanks for the numbers and info; I'll add them to the growing table and list;
typically formats are correct for ratios but not 6cm rather 55mm so longer axis ends up being shorter, e.g., 6x9cm is really 55-6mm x 82-84+mm)
re: ebay panoramic back - it does look like a torpedo camera back, as you say
see my torpedo camera pages (Jim Vilett's post) and sample pano photos and the *torpedo camera manual* and ads for the B&J; panoram 120 at http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/mf/torpedo.html and
http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/mf/torpedo/index.html manual and
http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/mf/torpedo/index.html sample photos (Jim's)
the back does look like the torpedo camera on the panoram 120 (B&J;) etc. not clear if this is just a Soviet/russian copy, parallel design, or another EBAY seller with bad info (can that happen?? ;-)...
grins bobm

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000
From: IAPPPresident@aol.com
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: lens coverage, selection, cost.. was why Re: actual vs ratio sizes
One of the nice things about the V-Pan is WYSIWYG: What you see is what you get. There is nothing sacred about 6 x 17. If you look on the viewing screen you may discover that the image circle is smaller than what you hoped for, but the image works and you have only to do a little cropping. Chet Hanchett himself suggested putting some little black boards on the sides of the film magazine to crop to 6 x 12, and there's nothing sacred about 6 x 12, either. And don't forget, the image circle thrown by the lens may just cover the 6 x 17 format, but sometimes you want to shift the lens, and then the bigger the image circle, the more room you have for shifts. Chet recommends an image circle of 200 mm for full coverage of the V-Pan frame. There have been times when shift was more important to me than frame size - so I just shifted the lens, and later cropped the edges straight.
Liz Hymans
evphoto@insync.net writes:
As soon as I find a mm ruler I'll send you specs for my V-Pan mark III. Do you want the film gate diagonal as well. You of course are aware that published specs for image circles are often conservative. And are talking about the older 90 mm f/6.8 Angulon or the current or original version of 90 mm f/6.8 Super Angulon? Three different lenses with different specs.

Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000
From: Robert Erickson cirkut8@yahoo.com
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: lens coverage, selection, cost.. was why Re: actual vs ratio sizes
I have 10 folding 120 format Seagull 203s, that I paid $20 each for. I bought them to build LarScans. They must have been returned as defective when new. The shutters are all shot, but the bodies are all in excellent condition. They should be perfect for build your own 6x17s and LarScans.
I am willing to sell them for what I paid for them - $20 each. If anyone would like one or some please contact me at cirkut8@yahoo.com
Bob Erickson

From Panoramic Mailing List;
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000
From: ralph fuerbringer rof@mac.com
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: lens coverage, selection, cost.. was why Re: actual vs ratio sizes
to cut, combine 120 bodies into longfellows with stability and precision you need cast not stamped film planes. at least 90% of folders are crummy stampings even the vaunted bessa 11. i understand the ensign is cast but the 620 spools would seem a problem. inspired by the shutterbyg article i now have an extra longfellow, wide as standard 57 film made from 2 brooks veriwide backs: unique features include autofilm stop(4 on 120 & 9 on 220) dark slide w/ groundglass interchangeable midroll with 90 super angulon or 47xl super angulon (good coverage f22,32, (planning 360 tele-xenar). attachable also to a standard 45 international back , finder 140 degree horizontal from panofic, with masks. scale of l to 10 projected degree of difficulty for above from shutterbug article:7,5. actual:15
--
....

Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000
From: Joe Durante jandvd@wtco.net
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: Horizon 202
David Hibbeln wrote:

> Does anyone know of this camera or this website? > Is there a different source?

Check Ebay. I have several Horizon 202 cameras that function just fine, the main problem
I encountered with them was the light seals. The replacement of the seals is not a major undertaking, but could be costly it the repairperson is not aware of Russian humor. Not all metal parts are lubricated and were not meant to be, the bearings yes, the mainspring maybe a dry spray or if you want a quit camera a very small amount of bike silicone non harding grease. If you want any addition info contact me off the list.
Joe Durante

[Ed. note: thanks for more ratio and actual size info... by model]
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000
From: Willem-Jan Markerink w.j.markerink@a1.nl
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: actual vs ratio sizes
....
Noblex 150 is 50x120mm, Noblex 175 is 50x170mm.
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink

Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000
From: Willem-Jan Markerink w.j.markerink@a1.nl
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: Horizon 202
David Hibbeln wrote:

> Does anyone know of this camera or this website? > Is there a different source? > URL: http://www.russia2all.com/

Hi David,
You might want to check my homepage for a variety of info about and for the Horizon 202, and panorama + fisheye in particular, including pictorial samples:
http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/mainpage.htm
A 202 can be had for US$375....mail me privately if you want details.
--
Bye,
Willem-Jan Markerink

From Panoramic Mailing List;
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000
From: Andrew Fildes afildes@rabbit.com.au
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
I'm a Mamiya Press user and lucky enough to ownn the 50 and 75 lenses. I had been thinking about how I could use the large circle of the 75, which was designed to cover a full Polaroid frame plus more, by hacking a Press body. It then occurred to me that simply by cutting a darkslide as a mask for a 6x9 back, I could expose two 24 x 85 strips on a 6x9 frame, upper and lower and then hand cut them for scanning. As the camera has no interlocks, double exposure is usually a problem rather than an opportunity.
Has anyone tried this? It seems a cheap way to me to achieve 35mm panoramas with a better result than most dedicated 35mm panoramic cameras which seem to have frame widths in the high 50's.
Andrew
PS - I'm in Melbourne - anyone know where I can get 120 or 35mm pans scanned at a reasonable price locally or, at least, in Oz?

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000
From: James Romeo jromeo@iopener.net
Subject: RE:
For years I have shot 4x10 with a 8x10 using a 8x10 darkslide I cut in 1/2. I make a exposer with it on the bottom put the full darkslide back reverse the back shoot again the 1/2 again on the bottom put the full slide back I have 2 4x10 per holder.
James Romeo

Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000
From: Andrew Fildes afildes@rabbit.com.au
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: 1/2 slide
Thanks Denis - I had intended to cut a precise mask 'slice' out of the dark slide leaving material on end and edge rather than just halve it, for more precision and to make straight insertion easier (no double ententres please). Am I being too careful?
Andrew

>I use a Bender half slide in a 4x5 view camera for shots requiring lenses I >don't have in my "real" panoramic cameras. There are just two caveats: >modify your slide leaving enough material to fill the light trap of the film >holder, and carefully insert the slide straight! > >M. Denis Hill

Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000
From: James Romeo jromeo@iopener.net
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: alt-process large surface
Jamie
If you are using alt-process get in the alt-process group. A lot of members work on very large prints. You could post ?? there some one can help you. I do pan in alt-process but not realy large Great group and very helpfull
James Romeo.
....

From Panoramic Mailing List;
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000
From: Glenn Barry glenn@acay.com.au
Subject: Re: fisheye or roundshot?
The easy way to see this is to put the lens on look through the viewfinder or ground glass and watch the degree of image distortion as you rotate the camera. Fisheye mapping and compression requires that this is quite severe, more so at the edges agreed, but it is present throughout the frame including the centre. Just look at a straight line in the middle of the frame. It must begin to curve the moment you rotate the lens due to the fisheye projection. There will always be some blurring.
Glenn
Rod Sage wrote:

> > Fisheyes on a scanning slit panorama camera do not work very well. > > For example if you set the rotation and film transport speed/ratio to > > give you a good image in the centre of your picture you will find that > > > the further you go from the centre toward the edge the more streaked > the > > subject will become. > > > > Cya > > Steve > > Wouldn't it depend on the width of the slit? A narrow slit will have > less distortion taking place on the top and bottom edges. If you look > though an SLR with a fisheye or wide lens and pan the camera you will > notice a curving, pinching effect taking place along the left and right > edges, but vertically through the center the image is fairly stable and > predictable.

Glenn Barry Photography
Web: http://www.acay.com.au/~glenn

Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000
From: Ray Raffa raffa@concentric.net
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: 1/2 slide
I manufacture specialty dark slides and have two a few comments from my experience:
1. Don't try to cut a rectangular frame in the dark slide. The thin edge at the end of the slide will catch on the light trap material and you will be unable to remove the slide.
2. Original dark slide material is a bit shiny and can cause unwanted reflections with strong lighting. You can paint the slide with a flat black paint, but it must be a very thin coat or the addae thickness will make insertion and removal difficult due to the added thickness of the paint.
3. Only cut enough material to expose the film. You want the full width of the dark slide fully engaged with the light trap to prevent light leaks.
4. On my product, the tab (insertion/removal handle) is on the opposite side of the cut out portion which applies a diagonal force which seats the slide properly.
Hope this helps.
Ray Raffa
Sintec Photographic
Andrew Fildes wrote:

> Thanks Denis - I had intended to cut a precise mask 'slice' out of the dark > slide leaving material on end and edge rather than just halve it, for more > precision and to make straight insertion easier (no double ententres > please). Am I being too careful? > Andrew > > >I use a Bender half slide in a 4x5 view camera for shots requiring lenses I > >don't have in my "real" panoramic cameras. There are just two caveats: > >modify your slide leaving enough material to fill the light trap of the film > >holder, and carefully insert the slide straight! > > > >M. Denis Hill

Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000
From: Andrew Fildes afildes@rabbit.com.au
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: 1/2 slide

>I manufacture specialty dark slides and have two a few comments from my >experience:

Sounds unusual - what's a 'speciality dark slide'?

>1. Don't try to cut a rectangular frame in the dark slide. The thin >edge at >the end of the slide will catch on the light trap material and you will be >unable >to remove the slide.

Excellent warning, thanks! I would think that the best way to aviod this problem would be to cut the ends of the cut-out at an angle or, even better, with rounded ends in the area outside the image. The Mamiya 6x9 slides have a rounded and scalloped insertion end for just this reason

>2. Original dark slide material is a bit shiny and can cause unwanted >reflections with strong lighting. You can paint the slide with a flat black >paint, but it must be a very thin coat or the addae thickness will make >insertion and removal difficult due to the added thickness of the paint.

My new darkslides are unpainted stainless steel so this would be a problem. An old original one I own is black painted 'blued' steel - much better.

>3. Only cut enough material to expose the film. You want the full width >of the >dark slide fully engaged with the light trap to prevent light leaks. > >4. On my product, the tab (insertion/removal handle) is on the opposite >side >of the cut out portion which applies a diagonal force which seats the slide >properly.

Nice trick!

>Hope this helps.

Sure does
Thanks and regards
Andrew

Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000
From: "Linus Layman" linus003@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.digital
Subject: Found a Panoramic software for ANY digital camera
Hi all digital camera users,
Check out my new New Zealand trip
http://www.geocities.com/laneng_1999/nz/nz_kaikoura.html#
I used a new software called PixMaker. You can download FREE from http://www.pixaround.com . It lets u create panoramic scenes with ANY digital camera. The best part is that you can publish it into a Web page instantly.
Oh yes, it includes native support for Nikon cameras! You can also print out your images.
Cheers
Linus

Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000
From: Steve Berezin sbere@ix.netcom.com
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: Horizon 202
I sell them on this site.
http://www.russiancamera.com/Horizon202.htm
We have quite a few in stock and offer a 30 day money back policy.
Joe Durante wrote:

> David Hibbeln wrote: > > > > Does anyone know of this camera or this website? > > Is there a different source?

Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000
From: kc7cax@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Inexpensive, homebrew 6x17 panoramic?

> > Is it possible to inexpensively use an old Speed Graphic with a > >rollfilm back to make an inexpensive panoramic camera? Or would a 6x18 > >rollfilm back be too expensive or impossible to find? > > Or should I just consider buying one of those cheap Russian Horizon > > pan cameras?

I have been thinking of making some 6X17 backs. Would there be enough market for one that will fit under the Ground Glass of a 5X7 camera to make it worthwhile to build them? How much could I get for them? I would need to make enough on them to make building them worth my time, but I would need to keep the cost low enough to sell a lot of them.
The Cambo 6X12 Back I have for 4X5 is almost $800.00 new.
I do have a small machine shop at home.
Ted of Ted's Photography

Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000
From: Ray Raffa raffa@concentric.net
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: 1/2 slide
Specialty dark slides are for multiple exposures for various uses. For example, there is a set of two slides which produce 8 separate images on a 4X5 sheet of film. Most commonly used to determine best film speed, or to determine development times for Zone work. They are also used to test lens/shutter for accuracy. A special target is used which produces an exposure grid for each exposure. Since all exposures are developed the same, it eliminates all variables except shutter speed and aperature. The negative can be printed and compared to an included match card or the negative can be measured with a densiometer.We are currently working on an adaptor to work with Polaroid films and also a film holder which holds the film flat using vacuum.
Another slide produces 4 exposures approx. 2 1/2 x 2. These are commonly used for portrait work. A few customers use them to produce 4 different 8 x 10 portraits by printing and processing 4 images together on 16 x 20, then cutting up. These portraits are often toned, so it reduces processing work dramatically.
Regards,
Ray Raffa

[Ed. note: Prof. Davidhazy is a noted panoramic photography hacker and author of many related articles etc.; see RIT site links...]
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000
From: ADavidhazy ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: fish eye lens test
Alan,
snip)

> ... As predicted there is no way to get the full 180 vertical coverage. > I think the lens will be best with ambiguous space without straight lines.

This has been my mischievous way of saying that whenever the angle of view of a rotating panoramic camera extends beyond the axis of rotation of the camera one might be illustarting how things look "beyond infinity" ... infinity being defined as that location in the photograph where there is an infinite amount of distortion ... where a "point" ... the extension of the axis of rotation to a location above the camera ... is reproduced as a line.
I had placed an illustration of this effect in a webpage devoted to my experiments with making a digital camera out of a hand scanner and not only does the photograph approach the point directly above the camera but significantly exceeds it. I was trying to make a point about this and so did not just point the camera straight ahead and included both the North and South "poles of rotation" but decided to only include the North and go beyond it.
This, of course illustrates that subjects beyond the infinity line are reproduced as being 180 degrees out of phase and upside down with respect to their "real" counterparts. It is easiest to see this effect by example.
The photograph is at: http://www.rit.edu/~andpph/text-better-scanner-cam.html
A side effect to this discussion is that raising the angle of view of the camera by tilting it backwards would cause converging verticals in a normal photograph but in a rotating panoramic camera, as long as you keep the axis of rotation vertical, the verticals in the scene will be reproduced as verticals.
Sure, there will be more and more unsharpness due to image/film slippage but otherwise the lines will not converge. This unsharpness can be reduced by small slit sizes ... the smallest ones being those that are not slits at all but photosites in a linear CCD array. And, BTW, with these variants on our film camera conterparts, rotation direction does not matter as there is no moving photosensitive material in the camera! The only thing that matters is TIME.
happy rotat'n
andy

Andrew o o 0 0 o . o Davidhazy, Imaging and Photo Tech \/\/\/\/\/\/ http://www.rit.edu/~andpph __________| |_____________________________________

Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000
From: simon nathan simonwide@earthlink.net
Reply to: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: fixed focus panoramic
dear andy- i will give my experience if you will listen a bit. it is from my 1970's early hulcherama experience, ok? the first lens for the models that were for sale was selected by simon for his own use as well as to increase salability. this was 35mm fl from mamiya which covered 6x4.5", therefore and easily the vertical slit. lens were set at hyperfocal distance and the focusing mount didn't do diddly except turn, rotate. hulcher was smart as a whip and he created two additional focusing (my malaprop) transport rollers. #1 was supplied with the camera. #2,#3 costa ya extra. picture this. hulcher ain't doing anything cirkuit guys don't know about. they shift or change gears. varoooommmmmmm.these different diameter rollers move different amounts of film. in effect you are changing the image circle and the focus happens because you are advancing a matching amount of film to points you want sharp. i have rollers for even closer focus. #4.#5 and i have used them well. i recall an ann report that asked for interior of upstairs-boeing 747 cockpit. off line i shall tell why we chose 35mm mamiya lens even though two prototypes had 50mm lenses. simon nathan andy, it will be a cold day in hell when you can overcome image smear with depth of field!
Andy Buck wrote:

> A little help, please! This is probably a basic > question, but I'm an on again/off again subscriber. > > I am building a 360 that will use a 90mm f/8 super > angulon. The actual focal length has been measured at > 89.23mm, i.e. focused at infinity. It will be built > with fixed focus - for simplicity. Focusing at 15' and > closing down to f/16 gives me the depth of field I > need. > > Given a focal length of 89.23mm, that distance is > increased by 1.77mm to focus at 15'. My questions: > > 1. Obviously, that 1.77mm should be added to the > flange-to-film distance. Should it be added to the > pivot radius, as well? > > 2. Should the 1.77mm be added into the film length, > i.e. rate of film movement? > > After writing this, it seems like the answer to both > will be the same. > > Thanks!!!!

[Ed.note: related post about smear issues..]
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000
From: ADavidhazy ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Reply to: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: fixed focus panoramic

> it will be a cold day in hell when you can overcome image smear with > depth of field!

This is at the very core of image sharpness when it comes to panoramic cameras. DOF will continue to work in a direction parallel to the slit but perpendicular to the slit it will be image/film slippage that will largely determine how sharp the image is. Basically the worse the slippage the less apparent dof given a particular dof associated with perfect sync.
Further, motion of film and image must be the same otherwise significant blurring is the result even thought subject proportions may be maintained.
The situation is a bit more complex or simple when a digital panoramic camera equipped with a linear array is used. In this case there is no moving film and rotation can take place in either direction with the result only being a reversal of subject features (easily solved with software!). Futher, since "pixels" are much smaller than any physical slit in a film camera can probably be, sharpness along the slit is maintained over a wider angle than when slits are used.
More or less ...
adios, andy davidhazy - andpph@rit.edu

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000
From: kathjeff@postoffice.pacbell.net
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: Horizont 202 vs. Noblex
Check the following for comparisons:
http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/pan_35mm.htm
....

Date: Mon, 08 May 2000
From: lubjek@placebase.com
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: Searching for a free Java applet thats a 360 degree panorama viewer !!!

> I am in need of a 360 degree panorama viewer applet that 100 % free, > and that can use it in my website .Also it should not contain any > developer's link or message as most of the free stuff do .

Why do you object to a developer's link or message? Do you object to a copyright message too?
For a 100% free version of what you want (*with* a developer's message), look at http://www.placebase.com.

From Panoramic Mailing List;
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000
From: John Strait jstrait@acm.org
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: ANNOUNCE: The Panorama Factory V2.0 Released
I have finally completed and released The Panorama Factory V2.0!
This version is chock full of new features and improvements to existing features. The most exciting new developments in V2.0 are:

** A New Project Wizard that helps you create new stitching projects with just a few mouse clicks. ** The ability to create VR panoramas. ** A library of digital camera models. ** A printable user's guide in PDF format.

For a more complete listing of changes in V2.0, visit
http://www.panoramafactory.com/whatsnew.html
To download V2.0 visit:
http://www.panoramafactory.com/download.html
The Panorama Factory V2.0 is also available at Simtel -- a worldwide distribution network for Shareware, Freeware, and Public Domain software:
http://www.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/win95/graphics/pf2p0.zip
ftp://ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/win95/graphics/pf2p0.zip 6101820 bytes

From Panoramic Mailing List;
Date: Wed, 03 May 2000
From: Steven Morton Steven.Morton@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: Has C.A..Hulcher Co.Inc. moved ?
Peter M wrote:

> Has Charles.A.Hulcher Co.Inc. moved from 909 G Street, Hamton,Virginia > ? > I've tried to fax on 1 804 2452882 and phoned on 1 804 2456190. > Now I know that the phone is out of service, so can anyone help me ?

At:
http://www.hulchercamera.com/
it says the telephone number is:
757-245-6190 FAX 757-245-2882
or Email:
hulcher@hulchercamera.com
Looks like just a new area code
Cya
Steve

Date: Wed, 17 May 2000
From: Bill Barton wbill@bellatlantic.net
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: widelux 1500
Eddy,
I got some information from "Widelux" last year from Japan, it seems they will sell direct from the factory.... Address and contact name follows below.

PANON CAMERA SHOKO CO.,LTD. 24-3. 2-chome, Azusawa, Itabashi-ku Tokyo, Japan Export Manger S. Kubota

Hope this helps.........
Bill

From Contax Mailing List:
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000
From: "Bob Shell" bob@bobshell.com
Subject: Re: [CONTAX] never too much... :)
Wei,
You should have asked before you bid on one!!
The Widelux cameras are hand made by a small company in Japan. The mechanical design is so-so and the assembly and QC what you would have expected in 1950s Japanese cameras. They are notorious for mechanical problems and vastly overpriced when new. There is no USA importer and the dealers that sell them (Cambridge and Adorama) buy directly from the factory. The best one is the F7 which is more reliable than the earlier ones. I think they are up to F8 now, but the last one I tried was F7.
Shoot some narrow latitude slide film first and check for density variations. The Widelux drum tends to stick, speed up and slow down, and cause this sort of thing. You need to exercise the drum often to keep one working.
I gave up on Widelux a while back and traded the F7 that I had for a Russian Horizon panoramic which is far more reliable and a lot less expensive. It also has a better lens.
The Noblex line are the best of the currently available pan cameras, and if I did a lot of pan work this is what I would buy.
Although not marked as such, the Noblex lenses come out of the old Zeiss factory at Jena.
Bob

>From: "wei zhang" milklover2@hotmail.com >To: contax@photo.cis.to >Subject: [CONTAX] never too much... :) >Date: Wed, May 31, 2000, 1:14 AM > >How is Widelux camera? Anyone use one? > >I've been planning to do some panoramic photography for a long time (I have >been admiring those long images for couple of years), and finally won an >ebay auction on a Widelux F6 camera last night. How is it? I have done >some research on it, but it seems not a lot of information on this >particular model, and I don't too much pictures taken with this camera >either (mostly Noblex). Any special tips on this camera or panoramic swing >lens camera in general?

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000
From: ADavidhazy ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Re: flatbed scanhead in rotating camera
Has anyone out there tried fitting the moving scanning bar from a flat bed scanner into a rotating camera? I have a #8 Cirkut camera and talking with a friend who is into all this computer stuff, it would be the ideal camera to do it to. Fit a 600 dpi bar behind the slot, hook up a laptop, rotate the camera and download the file (probably 300mb) and print 12 inches wide times eight feet long on an Epson photo printer.
Clayton,
I have (and others before me also) done something similar to this. In my case I took the linear array out of a small hand scanner and installed it in a channel I attached to the back of a 35mm camera. Keeping the camera still and pulling the array across the image plane gives you the equivalent of a still camera fitted with a slow moving focal plane shutter. Keeping the array still and rotating the camera gives you panoramic photographs and keeping camera still and rotating the subject gives you peripheral or "rollout" records.
Got a pair of little articles at:
http://www.rit.edu/~andpph/text-demo-scanner-cam.html
http://www.rit.edu/~andpph/text-better-scanner-cam.html
Generally, however, you need to keep in mind the aspect ratio for which the scanner is set up. Most would be something like 9x12 inches so not quite the 1:8 aspect ratio that you are hoping for. Whiule you could cut down on the height keeping the length the same and that would improve the aspect ratio, this generally means loss of "pixels" or information in one direction.
A more interesting solution would be to "massage" the hardware or software in such a manner that it does not stop recording data and continuously spews out image info ... of course, a 1G or more file then would be the problem of the computer.
great fun but now what's next??

Andrew o o 0 0 o . o Davidhazy, Imaging and Photo Tech \/\/\/\/\/\/ http://www.rit.edu/~andpph __________| |_____________________________________

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000
From: Mike Sinclair sinclair@microsoft.com
Subject: RE: flatbed scanhead in rotating camera
Thanks for the post David.
I should have also pointed out that 42mm (length of the active area on many tricolor CCDs) is also the diagonal of a 35mm film aperture and the minimum diameter of coverage for most 35mm lenses. Also, the Russian 16mm Zenitar (www.russia2all.com) will yield its 180 degree FOV over this length sensor.
You're right about squaring up non-square pixels by changing the aspect ratio through stretching. This is what I have to do to make the 11" flatbed-scanning-dimension fit into a 360+ degree swing. This results in severe aspect ration problems but can be repaired at the cost of wasting a lot of pixels.
Thanks for your input.
-Mike-

> -----Original Message----- > From: ADavidhazy [mailto:ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu] > Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 6:06 AM > To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au > Cc: ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu > Subject: RE: flatbed scanhead in rotating camera > > Mike, > >> I think you're on the right track but may run into some problems. To get >> scanner software/firmware to move the sensor head farther than the factory >> length of the bed itself is next to impossible (but if you do, PLEASE share >> it!). [snip] > > Words of wisdom! > >> glass....but this is a BAD way to do it. Instead, put the tricolor CCD >> sensor physically in the image plane (without the 5+ mirrors that are in the >> image path of most flatbed scanners) and mechanically scan it across the >> film plane. Of course this will only digitize a 42mm wide path in the image. >> Use different gearing to move it the required distance to give you square >> pixels - for the case of a rectilinear camera with a flat film plane. > > Yup ... or, if you tolearate fixing things after the fact you can scan always > to the same length and then stretch using software by interpolation to a > longer length. ;-) > > BTW, a 42mm sensor is actually not too bad. In my improvised camera I am using > a only 20mm or so sensor which is really not very good in terms of quality but > the purpose was only to have a "demo" system for teaching purposes. > > The bottom line is that I think you have neatly summarized the problems and > possible solutions. Thnaks. > > Andrew o o 0 0 o . o Davidhazy, Imaging and Photo Tech > \/\/\/\/\/\/ http://www.rit.edu/~andpph > __________| |_____________________________________

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000
From: Ernst Dinkla ernst@dinkla.demon.nl
Subject: RE: flatbed scanhead in rotating camera
Mike Sinclair wrote:

> Another thing that probably won't work that was suggested is putting the > flatbed scanner "as is" in the film plane - you don't have a real image! > You'll need something for the camera to produce a real image like ground > glass....but this is a BAD way to do it. Instead, put the tricolor CCD > sensor physically in the image plane (without the 5+ mirrors that are in the > image path of most flatbed scanners) and mechanically scan it across the > film plane. Of course this will only digitize a 42mm wide path in the image. > Use different gearing to move it the required distance to give you square > pixels - for the case of a rectilinear camera with a flat film plane.

You are right of course. The only way to get the virtual image from the film plane to the CCD would be with light conducting fibres or a small etched strip of glass in the film plane moving along with the CCD. Would a rod of glass on the same spot work as an additional optical element? It needs to get the width of the pixels in the optical path of the scanner. I'm still thinking that where it passes the optical axis of the lens there will be a hot spot.
Using the CCD only will change the aspect ratio and I think that changing the gears will be limited by the design of the bearings etc. A 600 ppi A4 scanner will have a 3000 ppi CCD so the steps will have to be 5 times smaller. Still a nice area of 42 x 60 mm. But you don't need a large enlarger for it.
Makes me wonder whether the new true 1200 ppi flatbed scanners can't be rebuild to panorama film scanners at 1200 x 6000 ppi and some nifty resampling software. Reducing the gears by a factor two would give an area of 150 x 42 mm and 2400 x 6000 ppi. Another lens is needed to get the distance between the film and the CCD.
Ernst
--
Ernst Dinkla Serigrafie,Zeefdruk

From Koni Omega Mailing List:
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000
From: johnstafford John@Stafford.net
Subject: Re: [KOML] 58mm image circle - coverage for movements
From: Clive Warren Clive.Warren@baesystems.com

> Am considering simply chopping a hole in a 5x7 darkslide and using 5x7 film > with a 203mm Ektar but we are getting dangerously off topic here....

Drake Hokanson, a pro photojournalist here shoots 6x17. Main problem is that it requires a big enlarger. I strongly suggest you consider 6x12 and a lens wider than 203. The math all works out, you don't lose that much and there are very good lenses which cover. (pricey, too!)

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000
From: Robert Erickson cirkut8@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: mounting/framing pans
The only way to do framing cheap is to do it yourself. This is not a difficult task. The big savings will be worth the effort.
Framing material comes in 10 foot lengths. You can buy it and cut it with a miter box and hack saw...or have it cut by the supply house. Check out Graphik Dimensions at http://www.pictureframes.com Their 48" precut "Standard" metal style is available in your choice of 8 colors for just $11.10 per pair! Custom cut pair of 8 footers would be just $23. A two foot by 8 foot custom cut "Standard" frame is just $29.10. This price includes hangers, spring clips, wall savers and wire.
Often large framed photographic prints are not protected at all. Some use lamination. I have found that prints that have plexyglass or glass are prefered by my customers and worth the effort. Plexyglass is available at Home Depot in 4x8 foot sheets. You can easily saw it with a hand circular power saw. (I have a table saw which can rip the plexy and precision cut the framing material too)If you prefer glass take your completed frame to a glass shop. Have them cut the glass and drop into your frame.
Mat board is a little more difficult. The best solution is to use a two layer two color frame to get the mat board look. The second layer of the frame provides the border in front of the glass instead of behind it! Graphic Dimensions has several styles to pick from. If you must have mat board you will need to special order a full sheet that is 8 feet long. I have seen home made bevel cutters, but I prefer to settle for a 90 degree cut. IMHO - forget using a mat board for longer than 40 inch prints. Instead, produce the print with a large white border around the image to simulate the matte board look. I have found that my customers don't give a darn if I use mat board or simply provide a white border for really big prints. If you must have a mat then this would be the time to leave it to the professional. Graphic Dimensions charges $2.50 per square foot plus $3 per cut. IMHO- do not use a mat, print with a white border and/or buy the frame with a border instead.
For cheap cardboard for the backing check out behind your local appliance store. There you will often find 6 foot refigerator boxes. I often use pieces of cardboaard and with a few cents worth of white glue build up backing cardboard in a couple of overlaping layers.
A two foot by eight foot frame job including plexyglass or even glass should cost you somewhere in the $50-$60 range. Framing shops would charge $250 to $400.
:-)
Bob Erickson
--- "M. Denis Hill" denis@area360.com wrote:

> I recently had a 72" print made from an XPan neg. > Then I needed to have it > made ready for presentation in a hurry. I went to a > local framer who does > good work, but is not cheap. The results were OK, > but not spectacular and > too expensive. This is partly because the print > exceeded the size of matte > board. Of course the frame (aluminum) and plexi were > not cheap, either. > > Has anyone come up with a way to present large > prints that does not end up > costing out-of-proportion to the cost of the print? > In this instance, the > framing was nearly 4X the cost of the print. > I was wondering about mounting on gatorboard then > somehow finishing the > edges. That, with lamination, should make a nice > presentation. But what > would work for the edges? Any ideas about this or > other low-cost mounting > methods? > > M. Denis Hill > Area 360 Communications > http://www.area360.com

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000
From: GAPiccagli@aol.com
Subject: Re: mounting/framing pans
While packing cardboard might be fine for some applications, be aware that it is unlikely to be acid-free and may contribute to the deterioration of the photo. This may, or may not, be a problem for you depending on the type of print you are dealing with and your, or your customer's, requirements.
Giorgio P.
...

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000
From: Mike Sinclair sinclair@microsoft.com
Subject: RE: flatbed scanhead in rotating camera
I think you're on the right track but may run into some problems. To get scanner software/firmware to move the sensor head farther than the factory length of the bed itself is next to impossible (but if you do, PLEASE share it!). As one vendor put it to me "why would you want to do this? It will just bang the motor against the stops (he was speaking about the factory flatbed use)". One solution is to re-gear the timing belt so the total traversal of the equivalent length of the flatbed is never exceeded. There are a number of vendors that carry these small parts for a reasonable price (Sterling, Small Parts, Inc, Stock Drive, etc). Most use an 80 pitch belt. Just calculate the gear ratio required for a full traversal of the film plane or 360+ in the case of a rotating lens camera.
Another thing that probably won't work that was suggested is putting the flatbed scanner "as is" in the film plane - you don't have a real image! You'll need something for the camera to produce a real image like ground glass....but this is a BAD way to do it. Instead, put the tricolor CCD sensor physically in the image plane (without the 5+ mirrors that are in the image path of most flatbed scanners) and mechanically scan it across the film plane. Of course this will only digitize a 42mm wide path in the image. Use different gearing to move it the required distance to give you square pixels - for the case of a rectilinear camera with a flat film plane.
Most linear CCDs are TRUE RGB sensors, usually with a 42mm long image length, with SEPARATE red, green and blue strips - no bayer patterns to mess with cross-chroma-luma artifacts!). As for IR, use an IR-cut filter (Edmond Scientific, Inc) somewhere in the optics path. Be careful that the total angle subtended by the image passing through the filter at this location is not very wide as these filters are usually angle dependent (dichroic or thin film interference type) and will yield a color shift from center to edge of the image on the CCD.
Hope this helps.
-Mike-

> -----Original Message----- > From: Clayton Tume [mailto:tume@world-net.co.nz] > Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 5:41 PM > To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au > Subject: Re: flatbed scanhead in rotating camera > > > Andrew D and Joe.....thanks for the replies...I've got my > computer friends > looking into the aspect problem, they don't think it will be > too much of a > problem telling the scanner software driver to run past where > it thinks the > page ends......but we'll wait and see! > > I'll keep you informed > > Clayton

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Wed, 03 May 2000
From: Zonghou Xiong zxiong@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au
Subject: Scanning Horizon 202 images

>Hi, just joined the list primarily to find out how y'all scan frames from >a Horizon 202.

You might want to try scanning your 35 mm pano slides using a 35 mm film scanner. Do two scans for one image and stitch them together. I bought a Microtek ArtixScan 4000 to do this. To get similar quality scans, you would have to put your slides on an Imacon or a drum scanner. Easier ways would be flatbeds but be prepared for loss of quality in terms of Dmax and resolution. 35 mm film scanners are way cheaper (factor of at least 10) than larger size film scanners. The Artix offers 4000 dpi and its Dmax is adjustable up to 4.0. With a dynamic range of 3.4 to 3.6 for the Artix this means you might have to do up to four scans to get a single pano image. Sounds bit tedious but all this can be accomplished within a few minutes. I believe the only other scanner that would give me same quality scans for my Noblex and Xpan images would be a pricey top-end Imacon for which I'm not prepared to spend for the moment.
Zonghou Xiong

Date: Tue, 02 May 2000
From: Robert Erickson cirkut8@yahoo.com
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: My correction advice for stitching images
IMHO- Forget Corel or Photoshop for stitching. My new love is PanaView, a true professional stitching program with pleanty of controll if you need it or full automatic if not. PhotoVista is also excellent for automatically blending values and color correction. Both cost about $60 and will pay for themselves the first time by time saved. Both can be downloaded and have a free trial. Why not try them both? Once stitched then import the results into your favorite graphics program for improving.
Bob

Date: Tue, 02 May 2000
From: WILLIAM D SCHWADERER WDAVID@prodigy.net
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: My correction advice for stitching images
I like Panorama Factory at http://www.panoramafactory.com/ . Its completely free...and very professionally done.

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000
From: ADavidhazy ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Re: fixed focus panoramic

> it will be a cold day in hell when you can overcome image smear with > depth of field!

This is at the very core of image sharpness when it comes to panoramic cameras. DOF will continue to work in a direction parallel to the slit but perpendicular to the slit it will be image/film slippage that will largely determine how sharp the image is. Basically the worse the slippage the less apparent dof given a particular dof associated with perfect sync.
Further, motion of film and image must be the same otherwise significant blurring is the result even thought subject proportions may be maintained.
The situation is a bit more complex or simple when a digital panoramic camera equipped with a linear array is used. In this case there is no moving film and rotation can take place in either direction with the result only being a reversal of subject features (easily solved with software!). Futher, since "pixels" are much smaller than any physical slit in a film camera can probably be, sharpness along the slit is maintained over a wider angle than when slits are used.
More or less ...
adios, andy davidhazy - andpph@rit.edu

From: kahhengDELETETHIS@studioQ.com (Tan)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000
Subject: Re: Roll Film Backs
tburfordtb@wa.freei.net said this on the Internet:

>I have some of the torpedo camera backs that I am planing on >making some 6X17 Backs to fit 5X7 Camera. Something like the roll >film backs that are made for 4X5. > >Later I may make some backs from scratch. > >Ted

This sounds like an interesting project. Do keep us up to date of how you're doing with this 5x7 roll film project.
Here, I have a cheap Kodak Autographic Jr 1a (uses 120 film) with bad bellows that I would like to turn into a 6x17 rollfilm back/camera.
The body of this camera appears to be made of wood so it looks quite easy to saw into half and then extend with more wood and aluminium. The neat bit would be that it would have all the mechanisms for a rollfilm back without needing to hunt down rollers and a winding mechanism.
I once came across a Tomiyama 6x17 rollfilm back for a 4x5 (not even 5x7) when I was in HongKong. It's a graflok type device. Wish I remember clearly how it looked like now!
It wasn't cheap though. Something like US$2000. It was priced the same as their 6x17 camera with bellows focus.
Doug Bardell's 6x17 camera sure looks inspiring! http://www.cyberbeach.net/~dbardell/panorama.html Regards,
K H Tan
STUDIO Q
http://StudioQ.com

Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000
From: Bob Salomon robertsalomon@mindspring.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Linhof 612 PC vs Linhof 612 PC ll
The original 612 took 65 and 135mm lenses as did the original 612 PCII.
The later (current 612PC II) takes your choice of 58, 62 or 135mm lenses)
The earlier ones can not be modified to take the 58mm.
The 612 PC had an interlock on the shutter release to prevent firing the shutter if the dark slide was in the camera. This resulted in a rough feel to the release and photographers complained about it. That interlock was removed on the PC II so the release is very smooth.
The original 612 PC and the current PC II accept 120 or 220 film.
The first 612 PC II only took 120 film and can not be converted to also use 220.
So; there are really 4 versions:
1st: Original PC with 65 or 135mm, interlock, and 120/220 film.
2nd: 612 PC II with 65 or 135mm, no interlock, 120 only
3rd: 612 PC II with 58, 65 or 135mm, no interlock, 120 only.
4th: 612 PC II with 58, 65 or 135mm, no interlock, 120/220.
The 612 PC II was introduced in 1988
IF YOU HAVE FURTHER QUESTIONS CAL 800 735 4373 AND WE WILL BE HAPPY TO ANSWER THEM. PLEASE DO NOT EMAIL ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS
--
www.hpmarketingcorp.com for links to our suppliers
HP Marketing Corp. U.S. distributor for Braun, Gepe, Giottos, Heliopan, HP Combi Plan T, Kaiser fototechnik, KoPho cases, Linhof, Pro Release, Rimowa, Rodenstock, Sirostar 2000, Tetenal Ink Jet Papers

Date: 31 Aug 2000
From: zorzim@aol.com (ZorziM)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: help with panoramic camera
Harald Finster finster@ave.ac.agit.de writes:

>It should be mentioned, however, that the kind of 'perspective' >(or more correctly: 'projection') produced by swing-lens panorama cameras >differs significantly from large angle images taken with 'regular' >(rectilinear) cameras. > >I don't say, which one is preferable, just want to point out, >that there ** is ** a difference (and you have to decide by >yourself, what you find more pleasing or what you need ...) > >IMHO swing-lens cameras are a perfect solution for landscapes, >but in architecture? Hmm, I don't know, if I like straight >lines 'bend' as seen with a fish-eye.

A trick I like to do with some large prints from pictures from my Widelux swing-lens is to curve the print and have the viewer see it from the center of the curve. All the curved lines straighten out and one is popped right into the scene.
Architectural shots can work if you get used to the way the camera sees. You can pretty well hide the curved lines in a lot of situations by a judicious selectin of just the right camera angle. The funniest example of this that I have is a shot of the *curved* row of buildings on one side of the Campo in Siena where the camera did a very nice job of flattening them out!
Check out the link to the panoramic shots on my site:
members.aol.com/zorzim

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000
From: Bill Glickman bglick@pclv.com
Subject: Re: Stiching Software
This web site by James Rigg shows all the pan software out there and there reviews...
http://www.panoguide.com/about/contact.html
However, there is limitations to stitching...one of them being file size...if used on a PC in windows 98. I had good luck with Panorama factory by John Strait...its share ware...
It is always best to shoot something you know the size and look of...... like your backyard....then experiment stitching those shots together so you know how close your final product is to what you think it should look like...
Bill G

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000
From: Denton Taylor denton@asan.com
Subject: Re: Stiching Software, who needs it?
you wrote:

>I have been taking a number of panoramic photographs by making multiple >shots. I have been attempting to stich them togather but so fat the >results have not been satisfacctory. Can any one recoomment a good >commercial stiching program or give me a descrition of the steps >necessary to accomplish the stiching in Photoshop?

After trying various stitching software, I decided it's easier to do in photoshop, and I use this to scan and stitch my Noblex pans, 1/2 at a time.
Open both images.
Check their measurements in pixels.
File/New and create a image that's a tad higher than both images and a tad wider than the combined image will be. IOW if each image is 400 x 600 create a new image 410 x 1210.
Take the first image, do a Select/All, then Edit/Copy. Close this image, you're finished with it.
Select the new empty image and do an Edit/Paste. That dumps the first image into the new file.
Repeat for the second image.
Now, using the Move tool, align each image within the new file until the desired results are achieved.
When satisfied, do a Layers/Flatten.
Crop any remaining white space and save.

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000
From: "M. Denis Hill" denis@area360.com
Subject: RE: Horseman 612 RFH
You'll find a photo of an Art Panorama 617 at http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/panoramic.htm#Label06, as well as UK prices.
This 120 roll film camera has a lens board and bellows with screw focusing. Usually seen with cone for 90mm lens, a 150mm cone is also available. Viewfinder is (in my experience) notably less accurate than that of the Fuji G617. 6x12 shots are achieved by installing two small, overpriced metal clips at the film plane. Film is inverted in camera compared to other cameras, so the image and the writing face opposite directions. The (included) ground glass slips into a holder/slot on the back cover, obscuring the red film counter window (no automatic stop). Focusing much closer than the scale on the knob is possible, requiring use of ground glass. Back is removed (a la Nikon F) to load film. No shift.
M. Denis Hill
Area 360 Communications
http://www.area360.com

From panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000
From: "M. Denis Hill" denis@area360.com
Subject: RE: Xpan 30mm lens
What I should have "done in the first place" was bought an XPan, but they did not exist when I bought my Fuji G617, Art Panorama, Noblex 150U, Widelux 1500, and Roundshot Super 220 VR. I get at least as many viable shots with the XPan as I did with those, more rapidly, with less weight and film cost, more accurate image composition, and with better film selection. I've sold prints up to 6' long from XPan negs. That satisfied my requirements. I do use a Noblex 135U in preference to the 30mm for the XPan. That's a personal choice I'd never try to force on another photographer. The 30 second limit of the XPan was a serious impediment to my shooting only once: during a lightning storm (not worried about reciprocity). But I don't think I could have dealt with the changing weather with a larger camera. If you get a camera that is not right for you, at least you've learned from the experience. If you shy away from a camera because it is, in the opinion of experts, not sufficiently macho, you've been cheated of an opportunity to learn.
M. Denis Hill
Area 360 Communications
http://www.area360.com
....

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000
From: Jeffrey Rogers jeffreydrogers@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Xpan 30mm lens
Some of us love working with the X-Pan, particularly after experiencing and working with much larger and bulkier medium and large format cameras. For many years I was under the mistaken impression that bigger is better. What is the end use? If it is to be a jpeg on a web page that is one thing, if it is to be a billboard that is another. Although, I would not hesitate to give a client an image created with my X-Pan for a billboard or a mass transit bus. I do, however, agree that the limitation of a 30 sec exposure with a center filter should be a consideration if one does low light photography.
...

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000
From: Robert Erickson cirkut8@yahoo.com
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: Software for panoramic images...
IMHO - THE #1 best guide for panoramic software review is http://www.panoguide.com/
Buy and use what ever you want, just be sure to visit this site and study the information before you do!!! BTY the software suggested on this mailing list is not top ranked. Visit http://www.panoguide.com to see what is and why.
:-)
Bob Erickson

From panoramic mailing list:
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000
From: Jeff Foster jncfoster@home.com
Subject: Re: Software for panoramic images...
....
Robert -
Thanks for sharing this web site with the list. There is a lot of very helpful and useful information - including the non-biased comparison chart for the VR software.
http://www.panoguide.com/software/compare.html
You say that "the software suggested on this mailing list is not top ranked", but the comparison chart alone proves that not necessarily true.
As far as I'm concerned, there are only 3 options on that list that I would consider full-feature tools (that is, they are capable of stitching, object movies and scenes). Among those only one is dual-platform - Reality Studio (Windows only), QTVRAS (Mac only) and VR Worx (Both).
It is amazing to see so many stitching tools available for those who just want to stitch together panos but not make a virtual movie or an object movie... so I guess it's subjective as to what you're trying to achieve as to what the best software is for each individual. You also have to look deeper than a comparison chart as well - that will only tell you available features, etc... not how well the product actually works.
All in all, this seems like a very good resource...
Best,
Jeff

From Panoramic Mailing List;
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000
From: Jeff Foster jncfoster@home.com
Subject: Re: QTVR Make Panorama 2
Peter Doughty at pdoughty@drizzle.mm.com wrote:

> Can anyone be specific about the address to download this? I searched > the Apple site and didn't find it without wading through many many > "possible" pages.

Ah... I finally found it!
http://developer.apple.com/quicktime/quicktimeintro/tools/
Lots of utilities and updates...
Jeff

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000
From: "Mitchell P. Warner" indepth@mpwarner.com
Subject: Re: VPan cameras
go to:
http://www.pansnw.com/
Click on: CAMERAS
Click on: V-Pan
Read, read, read, read,,,,,,,, go to the bottom and
Click on: CHECK OUT the Canham / V-Pan Conversion Adapter
Or, if you are focused, obsessive-compulsive and blinkered like a race-horse,
you can just go to:
http://www.pansnw.com/html/canham.htm
At Your Service,
mpwarner

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000
From: IAPPPresident@aol.com
Subject: Re: VPan cameras
Dear Dan,
Work on V-Pan cameras was stopped due to the manufacturer's health problems. I did hear some talk of having an adapter made so one could use a V-Pan back with another view camera - you can ask Joe DeRenzo about that at jderenzo@ix.netcom.com
Other than that, I've got a V-Pan and it's taken many fine pictures and I like it a lot. Fortunately it's a very heavy camera and after using it I no longer need to work out at the gym. It also doubles as a door-stop.
Liz Hymans

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000
From: SegalPan@aol.com
Subject: Re: Stereo panoramas
Craig,
360 stereo is actually quite easy. take two pans one above the other by 3 to 5 inches. Display them one above the other in a large circle with the viewer in the middle holding a periscope viewer, which views one pan height in one eye , the other pan in the other eye.
Voila
Mark Segal

From Panoramic Mailing LIst;
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000
From: Robert Erickson cirkut8@yahoo.com
Subject: panorama software info
PhotoShop is awfull for stitching. :-(
Go to http://www.panoguide.com for a side by side comparison of stitching software. Some are free ;-)
Bob

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000
From: Steve Berezin sbere@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Stereo panoramas
....
I have been taking stereo pairs with twinned Horizon and also one Horizon on a slide bar. I am working on a slide viewer for these which consists of two Horizon Panoramic loupes. We offer a viewer for Panoramic Stereo Prints at:
http://www.berezin.com/3d/ViewMagic.htm
The site below has formulas for Maximum on film deviation which details the optimal separation of the cameras. They have several Excel Spreadsheets. I have found 1:30 usually works OK for most scenic images:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/tech3d/techdocs.html
Also see:
http://www.berezin.com/3d/Tech/lens_separation_in_stereo_photog.htm
Hope this helps.

-- mailto:sbere@ix.netcom.com http://www.berezin.com/3d http://www.russiancamera.com/ Steve Berezin Berezin Stereo Photography Products

Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000
From: "Kerry L. Thalmann" largeformat@thalmann.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format
Subject: Re: Art Pan 617 back
Ronald R. Levandoski, DMD. wrote:

> I am interested in getting information about an Art Pan 617 film back > for 4X5 cameras. Anyone have a web site or maybe have one for sale?

Ron,
The Art Pan back will fit on a 4x5 camera with a Grafloc compatible back. It works, in principal, like the 5x7 expander backs made by Wista and others. In other words, it expands the 5" dimension to accomodate the 17cm width of the panoramic format. This adds 43mm of depth between the lens board and the location of the film plane. Due to the geometry involved with this type of back, the focal length range of useable lenses is limited by mechanical vignetting. According to the brochure I have, all lenses with sufficient coverage from 120mm - 180mm should work. It also states some 90mm lenses will work. The 110mm Super Symmar XL was not available when the brochure I have was printed, but it should work as well.
This is a two piece aparatus - a ground glass focusing unit and the roll film back itself (the separate ground glass is required since the camera's 4x5 ground glass is both too small and in the wrong location). The film holder weighs 1.25kg and the ground glass unit weighs 0.7kg. The back uses a "red window" for film advance, so it requires 120 film with the paper backing (or, I suppose you could use 220 film and figure out how many turns of the film advance knob is required for each frame).
I have no idea if this back is still being made, or what the current cost is. I looked into this several years ago. At that time, I believe the back was actually more expensive than the Art Pan 170 camera. Badger Graphic used to carry Art Pan. I'm not sure if they still do, but you can call Jeff (800-558-5350) and get more info. I have not used this back (or even even seen on in person). All the info above is from the brochure I have that is several years old. There is no date on the brochure, and it is in Japanese. Other than a picture of the back mounted on a Horseman FA, and a diagram showing the 43mm displacement of the film plane, that's pretty much all the info contained in the brochure.
If you do find out anything else on this back (availability, price, etc.) please post it here.
Kerry
--
Kerry's Large Format Homepage
http://largeformat.homepage.com

Date: 14 Nov 2000
From: Martin Jangowski m.jangowski@phoenix-ag.de
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format
Subject: Re: Angulon 90 f/6.8 - what hole?
Victor Bazarov vAbazarov@danai.com wrote:
> About to get the Schneider-Kreuznach 90 mm f/6.8 in Synchro- > Compur. Could anyone please tell me what diameter of the > hole in the lensboard is needed?

The Angulon 6.8/90 should be in a #0 shutter, you'll need a 34.6mm hole in your lensboard.
Martin

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000
From: Robert Erickson cirkut8@yahoo.com
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: stitching software
--- Clayton Tume tume@world-net.co.nz wrote:

> Bob E what stitching software are you using?

For easy stitches, where there are no problems, I use LivePicture PhotoVista. In under 5 minutes, with a few clicks, I can stitch an image AND produce a webpage with it spinning VR style. For difficult stitches (such as when I shoot down using a birds eye view) I use PanaVue Image Assembler. This true professional tool takes longer to use but can produce a stitch that would fail in most other programs. I have not tried them all. PanoGuide ranked them both high. I tried them, liked them, and bought them. Others are high ranked and worth a look at http://www.panoguide.com

> I've been to pano guide and had a look at a few, > there's seems to be plenty > of good stuff there. My needs are simple and up to > now I've been using > photoshop which I find slow but easy.

Using PhotoShop to do stitching shows me that you are ignorant. What I mean here is not that you are stupid, but rather that you use it only because you do not have knowledge of anything better. Do yourself a favor. Download a free trial stitching software program and give one a try. Have tissues ready and be prepaired to cry real tears of joy. :-)
After you have the final stitch save it and then open it in PhotoShop to do the magic!

> Your comments on the 3 mega pixel cameras are > interesting, I would have > thought the extra quality would be worth having, my > work will be mainly > Cirkut sized prints, not internet images.

If you believe that a two megapixel digital camera will give you an 8x10 print that is equal in quality to one from film, then you must also believe that it will give you an 10x60 stitched panorama that is equal in quality to an 8x10 from film. :-) The problem with 3 megapixel originals is that the resulting stitched file is gigantic and the resulting prints do not look any better. On the other hand a 3 MegaPixel camera should give you a 16"x10 foot long panorama that is equal to a 8x10 from film. WOW! If you are printing panorama that are say three feet long or less, then you can shoot with a one megapixel camera. These are available for $200+ and will give you perfect 6x36 panorama. If you are shooting for the internet and print media that will say fit on a 8.5x11 then you can get perfect panorama using a half mega pixel, sub $100 point & shoot digital camera. :-)
BTY- The new digital Roundshot 360 degree digital camera gives you a file that is only 1,000 x 2,900 pixels. This is a ONE megapixel camera! This baby costs thousands of dollars but produces an image that is equal in quality to a $200 point & shoot with a fish eye lens attachment. Why should anyone spend the money for the digital Roundshot? The same money would be better spent on a new 1000 megahertz computer, 3 Megapixel digital camera, PhotoShop6, Stitching Software, and 16 inch inkjet printer for those 16x44 inch prints. :-)

> Do you still shoot Cirkut cameras?

NO. I even shoot groups with my digital camera. My #10 Cirkut is for sale for $3000. I put it on Ebay twice with no takers. :-(
Bob Erickson
=====
Robert Erickson, cirkut8@yahoo.com
The Panoramic Network: http://www.panoramic.net

Photos of Rotations Specialties Camera courtesy of Ron Baker (rbaker3@kscable.com):

Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000
From: Ron Baker rbaker3@kscable.com
To: bronica@topica.com
Subject: Re: $5 shift adapters and Arsat shift lenses was Re: [BRONICA] Zenza Bronica SQ-
Hi Bob
Thanks for the information. I don't think that vigneting will be a problem as I will only be using the center portion of the lens. I have some shots of the rotation camera similar to what mine looks like. I don't know if we can put attachments on the list or not . I will try and see what happens. If this doesn't work I'll email them directly to you.
Ron

From Panoramic Mailing LIst:
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001
From: Clayton Tume tume@world-net.co.nz
Subject: Update of Bob Langs gear program
Hi all
A programmer friend of mine updated Bob Langs gear program and it's now quite user friendly. You can download it from my web site
http://www.bigshotz.co.nz/resources.html
Clayton

From Panoramic Mailing List;
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001
From: Megan Rhodes megan@vineswinger.com
Subject: Re: quicktime vtr $
There is a great article in the IQTVRA's website by Scott Highton on QTVR Pricing. I recommend taking a look at it.
http://www.iqtvra.org/
Megan
...

From Camera Makers Mailing List;
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001
From: "george jiri loun" george.jiri.loun@urbanet.ch
Subject: Re: [Cameramakers] rollfilm back plans
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Johnson" genej2@home.com
To: "cameramakers" cameramakers@rosebud.opusis.com
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001
Subject: [Cameramakers] rollfilm back plans

> To anyone's knowledge, has anyone ever made a rollfilm back? I am > interested in making a set of three or so for a project mini- view > camera. I wonder if there are any plans out there. I'll check out any > answers when I get back. > > Gene Johnson

---------------------------------------------
Yes, I did. It is a 6x24cm roll film back, for my home made camera with a Nikon 300mm f9 lens. It uses a simple construction inspired by Linhof 617 camera. Unlike this camera it also features a simple way of "continuously regulatable film drag force" which means that in whatever moment of frame changing I can adjust the force whit which the film is draged from the spool. Much easier in its use than its description sounds... I put there this feature for fear of insufficient film flatnes but it showed up that I don't need to use it at all. Even with a 8x loupe I can't fine any unsharp place on the slides the camera produces!
George

From Panoramic Mailing List;
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001
From: Jeffrey Rogers jeffreydrogers@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: V-Pan

The latest info I have about Chet is Chet Hanchett #1 Meppin Drive St. Louis, MO 63128 314-849-4774 fotoqtvr@i1.net

rec.photo.equipment.35mm
From: dkfletcher@aol.com (DKFletcher)
Date: Tue Jan 23 2001
[1] Re: Panoramic camera question
I have bought equipment from Micheal Fourman (Keiv camera I think) in Atlanta with good sucess. I have seen his Horizons around $245.

From Contax Mailing List:
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001
From: Bob Shell bob@bobshell.com
Subject: Re: [CONTAX] question

> From: "Mikhail Konovalov" m_konovalov@mail.ru > Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 > Subject: Re: [CONTAX] question > > They also have Horizons 202 for around $200 (don't remember more exactly), > want one?

Not right now. I have one already and it still works!!
Keep an eye open for the big one that uses 120 film, though. They showed it again at photokina and claimed to be close to production.
Bob

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000
From: Robert Erickson cirkut8@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Pro Photo
Like I said in my note, I bought the Mexican Noblex last year. If you are looking to buy one I would check with CASA ZERTUCHE,Alejandro Zertuche and find out who does the official Noblex warrentee work. It still may be Pro Photo in Irvine, CA USA
--- Frank Militzer militzer@hotmail.com wrote:

> The NOBLEX homepage says that CASA ZERTUCHE, > Alejandro Zertuche is their > importer in Mexico. So, how do the information go > together? > Frank Militzer > > > >Here is a secret, but you have to promise not to > tell > >anybody. > > > >Pro Photo Connection in Irvine California is the > >importer of Noblex for Mexico. A year ago I bought > a > >"Mexican" Noblex for less than anybody in the US > was > >selling them. The Official Noblex Warranty Repair > >Service for all of Mexico is done by Pro Photo > >Connection in Irvine California USA. ;-) > > > > > > > > > >===== > >Robert Erickson, cirkut8@yahoo.com > >The Panoramic Network: http://www.panoramic.net

=====
Robert Erickson, cirkut8@yahoo.com
The Panoramic Network: http://www.panoramic.net

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001
From: Robert Erickson cirkut8@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Horizon 202
For a while I was an unofficial Horizon dealer...so to speak. Every complaint that I got about the Horizon 202 was caused by operator error, not camera design or workmanship.
Check out my webpage at
http://panoramic.net/www/Swinglens.htm to read "Top
Ten Stupid Human Tricks that my exfriends did to my Horizon 202"
:-)
Bob Erickson
=====
Robert Erickson, cirkut8@yahoo.com
The Panoramic Network: http://www.panoramic.net

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001
From: visitacasas@wol.es
Subject: Smaller pano applet?
Hello,
I have just found what I think is the smaller pano viewer applet. It is only 4k sized and despite it does not correct pano distortion I find it very useful for showing a pano in a banner, for example. I got it from a web but not know the creator's site. Does any body know?
Some samples at my personal web,
http://leo.worldonline.es/jmrequen/pas/entra.htm
And take a drink!
Jose M.

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001
From: "Brian Walton - dotco.co.nz" info@dotco.co.nz
Subject: Re: Smaller pano applet?
Try http://www.duckware.com/pmvr.html
even better
Brian

From: Logan McMinn llmcminn@earthlink.net
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Fuji 617 90mm or 105 lens?
I've shot the fuji G617 with the 105 lens and the GX617 with the 90 mm lens, and the difference in angle of view is more significant than I would have expected. If I had to choose between the two, I would probably consider the angle of view more than any difference in inherent sharpness between the old and new designs. I am quite sure if you shot with the 90 and then cropped and enlarged to produce an image the same as the one you'd get with the 105, the 90mm image would be noticeably less sharp. For the work I do, I prefer the 105, but that's NOT a recommendation.

Dan wrote:

> Has anyone shot with the Fuji GX617 with both the 90 and 105 lenses? The > difference in angle of view/focal length is not that much, so maybe the 90 > is better, being a newer design and having 8 elements instead of 6 as the > 105 does? > > Thanks in advance. > Dan

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001
From: Bill Glickman bglick@pclv.com
Subject: Pony 6x17
Has anyone seen or heard about the new 6x17 Pony camera made in china? It uses LF lenses on what looks like Toyo boards, it uses bellows focussing, gg focussing, etc. For people that shoot LF and already have the lenses mounted in the appropiate boards it seems like a great camera for $1550. Any users, or input?
Bill G

Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001
From: "Jim Bancroft" bancroft@home.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format,rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: anyone with comments on horseman sw612 pro
Hi Darren-
I have the CamboWide 470 with a 47mm SA XL lens. It's about the same weight as the horseman 612 but has a few advantages IMHO.
1. It can be used with 6X12 rollfilm or 4X5 (when confronted by a subject which is not panoramic it's nice to have an option)
2. The back is compatible with Cambo gear like a reflex viewer.
3. It's a lot less money even with a 6X12 rollfilm back (unless you buy a Linhof or Sinar).
4. You could buy a CamboWide 470, 612 Horseman Back, and a 5X7 Hobo with a 110mm Symmar XL for less than the list price of the Horseman pro with a 45mm lens.
Also, keep in mind:
1. These are all one lens cameras since the price of additional lenses is almost as much as the camera kit.
2. In most cases these WA cameras require using a center filter ( 11/2 - 2 stops)and a minimum f stop of f16 which translates to shutter speeds of 1/15th sec. or less with ASA 100 films in sunny conditions. Not easily hand holdable for best results.
Hope this helps.
jim
"Darren Lew" dlew@interport.net wrote

> i'm considering this camera against a cambo wide. > > anyone have any experience with the horseman, or even the non-pro model or > the sw69?

From: goldscout@aol.com (Goldscout)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format
Date: 02 Mar 2001
Subject: Re: anyone with comments on horseman sw612 pro
See a review on wrote for the luminous landscape. They cover a lot of equipment. It's at www.luminous-landscape.com the sw612pro review I wrote is under equipment/panaromic section.
I like the camera for architectural and scenic shots when traveling.

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001
From: Gerhard Bonnet bonnet@spheron.com
Subject: Re: Continuous digital panoramas (was Duel)
As far as I know there are several companies announcing, and/or "really" selling scanning digital panoramic cameras.

Dr.Clau_ www.dr-clauss.de e-pan www.e-pan.com EyeScan www.kst-dresden.de Innotech www.innotech-ht.com PanoScan www.panoscan.com Seitz www.roundshot.ch SpheronVR www.spheron.com

The cameras (solution) differ in many aspects such as resolution, sensitivity, contrast ratio, noise, color depth, color reproduction quality / ICC-support, effective scanning speed, price, cabling, interfacing, portability, lens manufacturers supported, mechanical vibration, size, weight, battery operation time, capability of doing spherical panos, integrated post processing tools, ease of overall workflow ....
Yepp.
When talking about transmission speed, the scanning cameras do not really suffer from that, as the camera can buffer the image data and/or use suitable interfaces like SCSI/USB1.1/FireWire or the forthcoming USB2.0. Instead - in many situations we find that the image scanning time is "exposure time limited" and dominated by the exposure time per scanline imes the number of scanlines of the image. Examining the reason for this, you find that it's both the original CCD sensor sensitivity and the quality of the analog electronics used. There are very BIG differences which can easily be spotted when comparing the systems.
Gerhard Bonnet.

------------------------------------------------------------------ Gerhard Bonnet Phone +49 631 3111292 Founding Member Fax +49 631 3111293 SpheronVR AG Mobile +49 171 4529166 St. Quentin-Ring 73 Email bonnet@spheron.com 67663 Kaiserslautern, Germany Web http://www.spheron.com

[Ed. note: a number of printers can be software set to use ANY length of paper in software, a great trick for panoramic long prints...]
From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001
From: WILLIAM D SCHWADERER WDAVID@prodigy.net
Subject: Re: Epson printers to longer than 44"
Could someone verify the instructions below work? If they do, I will buy one of these printers immediately.
Thank you Kendall for the heads up...
---
Best regards,
W. David Schwaderer
...

> From: Kendall Pinion kpinion@worldnet.att.net > To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au > Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 > Subject: Re: Epson printers to longer than 44" > > > > My Epson 1270 will print longer than 44-inches by selecting USER DEFINED > in > > the print menu. > > > > From your software application, click on PRINT. > > > > When the print menu comes up, select PAPER. > > > > Select PAPER SIZE. > > > > Scroll down to USER DEFINED > > > > The measurements are in either units of cm (0.01) or inches (0.01) > > Default WIDTH is 850 (8.5 inches), and HEIGHT is 1100 (11.0 inches) > > > > Enter the value you desire for the HEIGHT (paper length) > > For a paper length of 20-feet, enter 24000.

From: goldscout@aol.com (Goldscout)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format
Date: 02 Mar 2001
Subject: Re: anyone with comments on horseman sw612 pro
See a review on wrote for the luminous landscape. They cover a lot of equipment. It's at www.luminous-landscape.com the sw612pro review I wrote is under equipment/panaromic section.
I like the camera for architectural and scenic shots when traveling.

From: Mark Rabiner mark@rabiner.cncoffice.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format
Date: 02 Mar 2001
Subject: Re: anyone with comments on horseman sw612 pro
Heavysteam wrote:

> I use a Horseman 6X12 back with my field camera and it is essentially the same > back that is on the SW612. It works well and I've had no overt problems with > spacing or light leaks. > > However, when you get into the price realm of the Horseman SW612, you might do > well to look at a used 617 system. While 6X12 is a great format, I think 6X17 > has a big edge for pure visceral impact.

Did you see this guys site?:
http://aci.mta.ca/personal/holownia/index.html
6x17 has a few bad aspects to it.
1. As a rectangle it with that extreme of an aspect ration, it has lost all semblance of formality.
You just read it from left to right like a line. It IS a line. A 6x12 though is still a rectangle, a box. You can compose in it. Things can move in a circular motion and make shapes.
It's like going to the movies like you see them now: Vistavision or ToddAO. (6x17 moviewise is Ultra Panavision 70 or Cinerama. Not what you're going to see anymore)
2. Everyone and his grandmother is doing it. It's like cross processing, infra red, hand coloring, Polaroid transfers..
3. Requires a 5x7 enlarger. 6x12 you can print in the standard 4x5.
4. I forgot.
5. 6x12 gives you more on a roll....ooops.
6. A 6x12 back is a nice alternate way to use a 4x5 press or regular view camera alongside sheet film.
7. Cut a piece of paper in half long wise and it's great for a 6x12 with nice borders!
Mark Rabiner
Portland, Oregon USA
http://www.rabiner.cncoffice.com/

rec.photo.equipment.35mm
From: Gene Rhodes gfrhodes@home.com
Date: Sun May 06 2001
Subject: Re: Why I bought a Panoramic Camera
Panorama lenses for fixed cameras are very expensive. Here's a comparison photo between a swing lens camera and a fixed camera with a Schnider 47mm lens (top photo).
http://www.photoprojects.net/fixed-swing.jpg
Gene http://www.photoprojects.net/index3.html

From Rollei Mailing List;
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001
From: Bob Shell bob@bobshell.com
Subject: Re: [Rollei] OT = Widelux Information Needed
Hi Evan,
I had a Widelux F7 and I think the current model is F8. Mine was never reliable and suffered from uneven drum travel. I ended up getting rid of it and getting a much less expensive Russian Horizon which has performed perfectly, and to my eye has a better lens as well.
There's a new panoramic camera out now, made in China. It used 120 film and is called Panflex. I have one here for testing and it seems really well made.
Bob
...

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: Thu May 17 2001
From: "Christopher M Perez" christopher.m.perez@tek.com
[1] Horizon 205pc appears to have reached production
I've been trading email with various parties around the globe trying to figure out if the Horizon 205pc is actually in production. It appears to be!
But the price is over $2000US. Gulp.
I'm sure people realize they can go to Robert White and pick up a new Noblex E2 for around $1525US... I wonder if the Russian are trying to recoup their development costs?
- Chris
Postscript:
Komplat, I believe, may be shipping the 205pc now. Check with them. I suppose you could check with the factory as well. But they seem to have a $2000US order minimum.
I hope this helps.

From Minolta Mailing List:
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001
From: Christian Deichert torgophile@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Panorama exposure
There was a great article in Adobe Magazine about 6 months ago that gave great tips on how to take separate photographs with unequal exposure and/or angle and make them into a seamless panoramic strip. Might be available online at adobe.com, worth a look. I still have the issue at home but am currently at work, otehrwise I'd share issue and page number.
=====
Christian Deichert
http://members.aol.com/cldphoto/

From Rollei Mailing List:
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001
From: Bill Barton wbill@bellatlantic.net
Subject: Re: [Rollei] Re:
Andrei,
You can special order glassless slide mounts from Wess in NY or get a/n glass mounts from Gepe part #2603 22x54mm These will both fit in a standard Rollei 6x6 slide tray.....I have the mounts and a non-working P-11 at this time, it needs a good CLA
Bill Fairfax City, we should get together for a drink sometime....

From Rollei Mailing List;
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001
From: ARTHURWG@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Rollei] OT = Widelux Information Needed
I had a Widelux F7 for a while. It was in very good condition and worked perfectly-- no "banding" or other stuff Widelux is famous for. But the camera was kinda difficult to use. One can easily get one's findertips into the picture, not to mention toes. I was inspired by the book "Inside Algeria," which is spectacular reportage shot entirely, and on the sly, with a Widelux. Still, I sold it. If the panoramic impulse strikes again I think I'll got for the Xpan. The pictures look lots like a 6x17, and lack the perspective distortions (bulge in the middle) of the Widelux.
Arthur

From Panoramic Mailing List;
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001
From: "Thomas B. Kunz" tbk@tbk.de
Subject: Panoweaver on MAC?
folks
the Panoweaverversion for the MAC is ready and we need a Programm to to ZIP. BTW, someone use the Aladdin DropIt or Vise Installer, who could help in this situation, please soon.
Thank you!
I'm asking here for the programmer of Panoweaver, not for me.
Friendly
Thomas

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001
From: Glenn Barry glenn@acay.com.au
Subject: Re: More IPIX tomfoolery ?!
Has anyone read this
http://www.pictosphere.com/real-story.html
I would love to hear what happens with this one.
Glenn
...

From Rangefinder Mailing List;
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001
From: Timothy Nelson timothy.nelson@yale.edu
Subject: RE: Widelux
Chris,
It's hard to come by info on Widelux. Not even sure if they're still in production. They do have some advantages over the Horizon and the Noblex--better optics and much quieter than Horizon, no exposure lag as with Noblex. Also, Widelux has the focus set at 5m, which is more useful for people-photography than the infinity focus of the other two, IMHO. I also like the classic construction of the Widelux, compared to the modern plastic moulded bodies of the other two. The XPan is a different concept--a slice out of a wide angle MF negative rather than a rotating view panoramic. It therefore has a different perspective than the swing-lens cameras. You probably already know about the banding problems that can appear with pre-F8 Widelux cameras, but this can be fixed. With the F8, they reshaped the gear teeth, as I understand it, and these seem to have less of the problem. Unfortunately, I think a lot of people gave up on the Widelux by the time the improved F8 appeared.
Check out this site for some history and a view of the insides of a Widelux:
http://www.gearboxtp.com/jesse/widelux_ro.html
Have fun with your F6--I hope it is fun for you. BTW, you can cut a negative carrier for the 24x59mm negs from a couple 4-ply mat boards (unless you're a digital darkroom type)
Tim Nelson
onetreehillclw wrote:

> I beLIEve that the Widelux negative is slightly longer than the Xpan's. > The > Xpan is a great camera, but I have enough RF's. > So far, the only website I have looked at is: www.panphoto.com > > I should be using the Widelux by the end of the week. I'll keep you > posted > on the results. > > Goodnight New Orleans! > Chris Williams

[Ed. note: corrected per postscript focus to 5 m (was 15m) ]

From Rangefinder Mailing List;
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001
From: Jon Ladd jonladd@mediaone.net
Subject: RE: Widelux
I bought my Widelux F6-B about six years ago from Dave Hawk at Photo Tech in Anaheim, CA (714-281-0468). He upgraded the gears inside with F8 parts. He is very good. I have had nothing but fun with the camera and take it all over. I've yet to see any banding.
Not such a good scan but here's a pic:
http://www.jacksonville.net/~jonladd/NC_Panorama.jpg
Took this one morning on a motorcycle trip to North Carolina. Kept the camera in my tank bag. Its been from Florida to Nova Scotia on my motorcycle.
Regards,
Jon Ladd

[Ed. note: WOW!! - check this out ;-0)]
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001
From: Stan Patz skp113@hotmail.com
Subject: 616 camera
To the group,
For the last year, I have been working - spare time - at the construction of a panoramic camera. Check out the results at:
http://www.PatzImaging.com/Patz616.html
Stan Patz NYC
SKP113@hotmail.com
http://www.PatzImaging.com

[Ed. note: thanks to Stan Patz for these inspiring camera design tips and pages!]
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001
From: Stan Patz skp113@hotmail.com
To: rmonagha@post.cis.smu.edu
Subject: Patz 616
Dear Robert,
I saved your email from last June so I could show you my finished camera project.
Check out the results at:
http://www.PatzImaging.com/Patz616.html
I said I was planning to use a 90mm Angulon as the prime lens. It does cover, but the edges, an inch on either side, were slightly soft. Not artsy soft... just not sharp. I thought I would have to buy another Super Angulon, but I came across an Ilex Acugon - on eBay - and it does just fine.
Actually it tested slightly better than my SA at the edges!
Stan Patz NYC
SKP113@hotmail.com
www.PatzImaging.com

From Rangefinder Mailing List:
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001
From: Timothy Nelson timothy.nelson@yale.edu
Subject: RE: Widelux
The vertical bands (Widelux) are indeed caused by uneven rotation of the turret. As I understand it, pre-F8 gears mesh less smoothly than the F8 gears, and this is why upgrading to F8 gears usually solves the problem long-term. I know that Bob at Precision Camera Works in Illinois can also do this conversion. However, some (most?) pre-F8 cameras don't have problems, or have banding problems that can be fixed by CLA. If it ain't broke....
Tim Nelson
...

From Rollei Mailing List;
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001
From: Evan J Dong evanjoe685@juno.com
Subject: [Rollei] OT = Widelux Information Needed + Panflex Update
Well, I finally handled the Panflex yesterday at Ken Hansen Photo. Not looking to steal the thunder form Bob Shell, I will wait for Bob to give us all the nitty gritty on this inexpensive120 format panoramic camera.
By the way, Bob I looked at that Chinese website. Can't read, BUT I can get my wife to decipher it for everyone when you are ready.
Until then..........

Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 From: Edward Meyers aghalide@panix.com To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Chinese PANFLEX T120 Oh! I thought you wanted who had experience with it. Two of my Panflex photos appeared in Oct 01 Shutterbug magazine. The only "negative" is that you need small fingers to load film into it. My most successful shots with it was at slow 1/2 sec exposures using a tripod. It seems to be a good value, as it's spring driven. New version has another name and also accepts 35mm film. I don't see the use for this as the 120 film advantage is taken away. My camera is 120 only. No 220. In the U.S. repairs (I'm told) will be by Armato's in Queens New York, about 3 miles from where I live. No need for repairs as yet. Ed

Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 From: "George S. Pearl" alps007@mindspring.com To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Chinese PANFLEX T120 Hello Sofjan, The Chinese Panflex camera is NO LONGER in production. It has been replaced by a newer design of that camera called the WIDEPAN Pro-2. This newer / better camera will soon be coming to dealers here in the USA, Canada, and the Caribbean sometime during the next couple of months. We have been working on different aspects of importation and dealership before we start importing the camera for distribution. Please check out our web site: www.widepan.com for information on this unique swing lens camera. We estimate that the camera will sell for a suggested retail price of about $1,500 US at camera stores. There are also other products from WIDEPAN on the way down the line. Stay tuned for more news! Thank you for your interest in WIDEPAN, I am Very truly yours, George S. Pearl ALPS - WIDEPAN Cameras 2139 Liddell Drive, NE Atlanta, Georgia 30324-4132 1-404-872-2577

Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 From: Edward Meyers aghalide@panix.com To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Chinese PANFLEX T120 I've seen them selling for from $1,200 to $1,500 . I think B&H;, Ken hansen and Armato's, all in New York have them. Each has a website, I believe. Ed

From ROllei Mailing List;
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001
From: Bob Shell bob@bobshell.com
Subject: Re: [Rollei] OT = Widelux Information Needed + Panflex Update

> From: Andrei.Calciu@hn.va.nec.com > Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 > Subject: Re: [Rollei] OT = Widelux Information Needed + Panflex Update > > The Russian Horizont 205 (or is it 505) is supposed to be available at > about $750, but I am yet to see one. Has anybody had a chance to play with > the medium format Horizont? The specs make it a very attractive camera, > having a Tessar type lens, up/down shift and the same fully mechanical > features as the 35mm Horizont.

Yep. At photokina in 1998 Mr. Silvestri was showing one at his booth. We got to talking and decided to try it out, so we borrowed some film from Kodak and got permission to go up on the roof of one of the halls. Carried up a big tripod. Loaded the camera, got it lined up just right, pressed the shutter release and it made a grinding crunching sound and jammed tight! Last I saw of it was when it was in pieces on a table at the Silvestri stand and the poor Russian technician was trying to get it to work. He did not succeed. Silvestri tells me he has since gotten one or two that work!!! If they ever debug it this would be a nice camera, but for now I wouldn't touch one.
Bob

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001
From: James Young jamiehy@globaldialog.com
Subject: Re: Cirkut prices

>Can anyone venture a guess the value of a #6 Cirkut camera (NOT the #6 >outfit) with a Turner-Reich triple convertable lens (complete with tripod >and turntable)? > >Steve > >blumn@erols.com > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Scott Davis sddavis@mint.net >Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 >Subject: Cirkut prices > >> I have 2 Cirkuts that I need real world price for : A # 10 Cirkut >> Camera , and a # 8 Cirkut outfit. Both are with tripods. Would anybody >> be willing to hazard a guess as to value? >> >> many thanks...Scott

They seem to be going between $1200- $2500.00. Only 127 were made, and they are often seen without the original lenses.
I got one without a lense for $1200. With all the original stuff and cases in exc condition they can go as high as $2500- but prices do seem to be down so who knows.
Jamie

From Rollei Mailing List:
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001
From: Andrei.Calciu@hn.va.nec.com
Subject: Re: [Rollei] OT = Widelux Information Needed + Panflex Update
The Russian Horizont 205 (or is it 505) is supposed to be available at about $750, but I am yet to see one. Has anybody had a chance to play with the medium format Horizont? The specs make it a very attractive camera, having a Tessar type lens, up/down shift and the same fully mechanical features as the 35mm Horizont.
Andrei D. Calciu

From Panoramic Mailing
Date: Sat, 30 un 2001 21:03:03 +
Subject: Re: Widelux 6
Probably a light leak around the drum. I know that Horizont cameras suffer from this problem (I have had it myself) so the Widelux may do also.
A simple test for this is:
1) in the dark wind on to a new frame
2) take the camera into bright sunlight and have the front of the camera pointing directly at the sun for several minutes.
3) in the dark fire the shutter and wind the film on.
This should give a blank negative. When you have the film processed examine this frame carefully. If there is any banding you have a light leak. If it is close to the ends of the frame its most likely from around the drum. Would mean the sealing felts need replacing.
Good luck
Richard

From Panoramic Mailing List;
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001
From: Edward Meyers aghalide@panix.com
Subject: Re: Widelux 6
I had "light streaks" such as yours with my f7. After a few "fixes" I was told to wind slowly. It worked. No streaks. Ed
...

From panoramic mailing list;
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001
From: "George S. Pearl" alps007@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Widelux 6
Hi N.O.,
Many years ago I used to import the Pennon Camera 35mm Waddle's. The actual dealer cost for the Widelux 35mm was only $350 US new. The cameras were selling for around $1,500. in the camera stores 20 years ago. We never really had too much trouble with these cameras except for lubricants drying up and causing uneven exposing across the film (banding). The slower speeds will be the first to go, then the upper speed. If your camera is doing dark and light bands across the picture, then your camera is in for an overhaul. It will need to be taken apart cleaned and re-lubed. This should not cost you more than whatever you paid for the camera! I don't even own one myself even though they are fun for snapshots, especially when you have a lab that will do machine printing for you. The Roundshot 35/35S cost more, but it is a real deal camera. Very small, portable, and takes whatever degree angle picture you desire. If you ever see a used one that you can afford, it would be a good investment. Hands down winner over the Widelux for sure! Now, go get your camera fixed.
My Best,
George S. Pearl, QPP
Atlanta Panorama
----- Original Message -----
From: onetreehillclw
To: Panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001
Subject: Widelux 6
I'm new to this forum. I just purchased a Widelux 6 w/filters. The camera is working great except that there seems to be some light and dark vertical lines on some of the negatives. Does the shutter need adjusting? I know that the camera has not been used for awhile.
Any info would help,
Thanks,
Chris Williams
New Orleans

From Rangefinder Mailing List;
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001
From: Timothy Nelson timothy.nelson@yale.edu
Subject: Widelux info
I know the Widelux isn't technically a RF camera, but the RF List seems a likely place to find other users and enthusiasts. I've been trying to learn more about the history, construction, and user tips of Widelux/Panon, and have found that info is very scarce. As I understand it, Widelux production at Panon ceased (once again) after a factory fire a while ago, but they are still producing replacement parts. Can anyone direct me to other sources of Widelux info? I've done the usual web searches. Widelux seems to be out of favor with the panoramic lists, which seem to be dedicated to software for stitched panoramas and virtual reality these days.
Thanks!
Tim Nelson

From Panoramic Mailing List;
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000
From: Marco Pauck pauck@wmd.de
Subject: Horizon 202 availability (was: Re: finders - hacking solutions anyone?)
I wrote:
[...]

> Just talked to Richard Wiese here in Hamburg, who's selling and > repairing Horizons: He ordered a large batch of finder lenses > from the factory now that production has been stopped.

Some good news: just got the info that the production will probably resume soon.
BTW: The september issue of the German magazine FOTO MAGAZIN has a comparison of the Noblex entry model and the Horizon.
Marco
--
Marco Pauck -- marco@pauck.de -- http://www.pauck.de/marco/

From Panoramic Mailing List;
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001
From: scantech Subject: Re: A new method of Panorama Photography ?????
I made a similar cylindrical pinhole panoramic camera but with the pinhole at the geometric center of the cylinder - less distortion while retaining the very wide field of view. Also less edge fall-off. I would be happy to see a drawing of a picture .
Make the pinhole out of very thin foil that you "zap" with a needle, capacitor and battery. This can produce very clean holes with no ragged edges. Is it the discharge of a capacitor through the foil to burn a small part of metal ?
It seems really interesting because making pinholes with a drill is often an awfull experience !
If it really work , I propose to named it "Sinclair Holes" because it is a really good idea .
Is it possible to get more details ?
Friendly
G. L.L

From Panoramic Mailing List:
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001
From: Mike Sinclair sinclair@microsoft.com
Subject: Pinhole_panorama
Concerning the construction of a panoramic pinhole camera (hope this is not off-topic):
I have posted a single picture explaining most of what I did (way back in 1964) at ftp://ftp.research.microsoft.com/Users/sinclair/Public/.
Basically it's two half-cylinders mounted on top of each other. The half-circumference of the cylinders is 5" while the length of each is 4". This gave me slightly less than 180 degree field of view horizontally and about 103 degrees vertically. The top half held the unexposed sheets of 4"x5" film, wrapped around the inside of the cylinder, facing the flat side and the pinhole. This put the pinhole in the geometric center of an equivalent full cylinder. I rigged up a shutter mechanism with a cable release but a piece of black tape over the pinhole should work also.
I just now repeated the pinhole production procedure to be sure of my facts. I used a 12v power supply (batteries will do) to charge a 330 uf capacitor through a 1K ohm resistor (to limit the current). One lead of the capacitor was connected through a clip lead to a strip of ordinary aluminum foil (mine is .018 mm thick) and the other to a needle, also through a clip lead. A small gauge wire cut on a bias also works as a needle. When the resistor charged up the capacitor after a couple of seconds, I'd slowly bring the needle into contact with the aluminum foil, producing a small spark and making a tiny hole - much smaller and cleaner than you can drill!. I did this repeatedly, spacing the holes about every inch. I then looked at the holes under a medium microscope and chose the best one. I also found that putting a drop of light oil on the end of the needle and letting the metal vaporize in oil produced cleaner holes. The holes were about 0.08mm in diameter which will produce a surprisingly sharp image (for a pinhole camera). You can vary the diameter by varying the voltage.
For multiple exposure capability, I taped a length of string to the bottoms of each of the unexposed 4"x5" films (I could get up to 6). Each string had one, two, three...knots tied in it to indicate what exposure I was on. As I'd take an exposure (several minutes in daylight with Tri-X film) I'd pull the next string in the exposure series which would pull that sheet into the bottom cylinder, leaving the next unexposed sheet ready for exposure in the top cylinder.
I will try to find some of the pictures to post, but it's been a long wile and many moves ago....
Hope this helps.
-Mike-

From Rangefinder Mailing List;
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001
From: Timothy Nelson timothy.nelson@yale.edu
Subject: RE: OT re: widelux
Robert,
I'd like to respond to your Horizon vs. Widelux post. I know both Widelux and Horizon fairly well, and I much prefer Widelux. I know this is a minority view, so I'll explain. I used Horizon for a year before getting my Widelux. Horizon is a good value, and I put lots of film through mine. BUT quality control is as with some other Russian cameras--I went through 3 before I found a good one. They seem to replace rather than repair them. On the other hand, parts are still being made for Widelux, and there are several good repair sites in the US. Also, I found the infinity focus of Horizon (and Noblex) to be a limitation for the journalistic, hand-held way I use a panoramic, especially when I wanted to use the bigger apertures, such as indoors. The closer focus of Widelux is an advantage for this. Also, I found the Widelux lens to be better than my Horizon at these larger apertures.
Both are nice when stopped down. Infinity is in focus from f/5.6 with Widelux, so it's not really an issue for landscapes. In other words, I think the set focus at about 5 meters is a design advantage, not a disadvantage, but then I'm not primarily doing landscapes. Another issue for me is the build of the camera. The Horizon is molded plastic, cheaply finished, and noisy. As one user commented, releasing the Horizon shutter is like releasing a bear trap. The Widelux is a classic mechanical camera, quiet and precise, and it just feels good to use. This is obviously just my own preference and opinion--I made many photos I like with Horizon, too, but I just prefer the feel of the Widelux.
Regarding the terrible reputation that Widelux has today for banding and general unreliability, banding seems to be a function of variation in manufacture and user care, especially with earlier (pre-F8) models. Some Wideluxes seem to have minimal problems, even over many years, while others have chronic problems. It does require more frequent CLA than other mechanical cameras, and regular exercise, but it does work well when maintained. The banding tendency was largely cured by the redesign of the turret gears in the F8 model, and earlier models can be upgraded with F8 parts. Widelux gets a bad rap these days, but much of it is second-hand legend that gets worse and worse in the retelling. My own view is that Widelux is the Leica of panoramic cameras, and that the prices for used Wideluxes are warranted, but I've had a good experience so far. Try one someday, you might change your mind...or maybe not.
I'm still interested in hearing from folks who have more Widelux info!
To the person who wondered how to print pano negs with an enlarger, I just cut pano negative carriers for my D2 from 4-ply mat board and my bevelled mat cutter. Holds negs more flat than masking a 6 x 6 carrier.
To the person musing about the role of pano cameras in the age of Photoshop stitching, that works fine for static subjects, but if you want a pano photo of an event with people and movement, forget it. The option for stitching does make pano cameras even more of a niche market these days, though.
Tim Nelson

Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001
From: Bill Barton wbill@bellatlantic.net
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: Widelux 6
Chris,
For repairs on the Widelux try these guys.....I went for a Noblex 135 instead of the Widelux, but I found out who did repairs on the Widelux before I made up my mind....

Nippon Photoclinc 920 Broadway Suite 705 New York NY 10010 phone # 212-982-3177

I have never used them for any camera repair, but they are supposed to be the warr repair shop for new Widelux's
Bill Barton

From Rollei Mailing List;
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001
From: Bob Shell bob@bobshell.com
Subject: Re: [Rollei] OT = Widelux Information Needed + Panflex Update

> From: Marc James Small msmall@roanoke.infi.net > Subject: Re: [Rollei] OT = Widelux Information Needed + Panflex Update > > I haven't a clue as to that which about what you are speaking. The Panflex > was a reflex housing made by Zeiss Ikon shortly before, and shortly after, > World War II for the Contax RF system. Whyever would anyone be doing a > "review" of this today? Even the original Leitz PLOOT was vastly superior > to the Panflex.

The Panflex in question is a brand new rotating-drum panoramic camera made in China. The trademark owner is Panflex Cameras USA, Ltd. My review featuring photos by list member Ed Meyers will appear in the September issue of Shutterbug, out at the end of this month. They have a web site, but it is only in Chinese.
Bob

From Panoramic Mailing List;
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001
From: Dreisholg@aol.com
Subject: A new method of Panorama Photography ?????
Please have a look at my homepage: A HREF="www.members.aol.com/dreisholg/"
H.Dreis"rner

Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001
From: "M. Denis Hill" denis@area360.com
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: RE: Which lenses for a 617 format camera ?
You can take some guidance from the Fuji G617, Fuji GX617, and Art Panorama 617. They user 105mm or 90mm as widest lens. A center filter will generally be essential in any of these instances to eliminate vignetting. Of course, the Fujis use Fuji lenses. But the Art Pan I owned used a Nikkor 90mm f8 view camera lens, which is available used and not too expensive. A Schneider Super Angulon or Rodenstock Grandagon 90 should do the trick nicely, but I'm not certain that an Angulon (earlier than Super Angulon) will cover adequately. If you want to avoid the center filter, that might be accomplished with the Rodenstock Grandagon N f4.5 90mm or one of the new Schneider XL lenses. Neither is cheap!
An inexpensive longer lens would be a 210mm view camera lens. That will cover evenly with no center filter, and can be found cheap; I've been trying to get $200 for a Schneider Repro-Claron I own without success, though camera stores want more for them.
Good luck and keep us posted on your project!
Denis Hill
-----Original Message-----
From: Timothy Harvey [mailto:timothy_harvey@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001
To: Panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Which lenses for a 617 format camera ?
Dear All
I am new to panoramic photography, and in the process of trying to build a 6x17 format camera.
Could anyone advise me as to what I should look for when choosing a lens and/or suggest a few possible lenses (preferably ones which can be obtained second hand).
Also, if anyone else has ever successfully built their own panporamic cameras, any advise ??
Thank you very much.
Tim Harvey

From Panoramic Mailing List;
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001
From: ralph fuerbringer rof@mac.com
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: Which lenses for a 617 format camera ?
i have a unique 617 i designed to includ the widest angle ever invisioned. i had two brooks verywide film backs morphed together for body.enlarged the film metering wheel to give me 120 plus 9shot 220 option.
i added slide to body so lens fronts can be interchanged and gg could be made if desired, all used w/o frame loss. i noticed that the 47xl could cover a 30mm shift on 45( i devised from a cambo frame a 45 wa with shift going only in any l direction from center. i discovered at smallest stop the xl covered the 30mm shift. so present complement is world's widest 617 (linhof's 72 covers less than 1/2 the area) . this currently interchanges with 90 f8 superangulon. while the 47xl is not as good a lens at all f-stops as the 35,45 and 55 apo-grandagons it does at its smallest f-stop cover more and gives unique results on 617.
using the same but single graflex xl interfaces i have devised a line of vistashift-612 cameras based on the brooks veriwide exploiting the apo-grandagons mentioned above. photographic illustrations comparing coverage with the hasselblad superwide and a discussion of the vistashift 612's:
www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/mf/vista612.html
i can supply these vistashift-612's but my machinist wont make another 617. howver at 80 i will entertain any offers for the one and only 617xl.
regards, ralph
....

[Ed. note: thanks to Tim Nelson for sharing his tips and notes on Widelux!]
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001
From: Timothy Nelson timothy.nelson@yale.edu
To: rmonagha@post.smu.edu
Subject: RE: OT re: widelux
Hi Robert,
I posted a response to your Horizon vs. Widelux discussion on the RF list, but wanted to share a couple more things with you, since the whole thing is OT for the list.
I corresponded with Bob Shell a while ago when he was selling some Widelux filters on eBay. He'd discovered them years after he sold his camera. He had a generally negative line about Widelux, as you related, but he also said he hadn't had much to do with Widelux in a long time and in fact had never worked with or on an F8 when he was doing repairs (maybe in pre-F8 days). I think the F8 eliminated the major Widelux criticisms about banding. If you ever become interested in checking out Widelux, talk to Bob Watkins at Precision Camera Works in Niles, IL, or Brian Kay at Tempe Camera Repair in Arizona, to get an idea about just as a rental. I was almost warned off by the stories, too, but I'm glad I checked it out. Used F8's go for about $600-800 on eBay these days. I got my F7 (which has been fine) for $500. I think they're a bargain, given that Horizon retails around $350-400, and you have to do your own quality control.
Best regards,
Tim

From Rangefinder Mailing List;
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001
From: Timothy Nelson timothy.nelson@yale.edu
Subject: RE: More Widelux
Chris,
why not just cut a holder out of mat boards? It's cheap and just as flat as an expensive metal one.
Tim Nelson
onetreehillclw wrote:

> I hope to be using my Widelux 6 again soon, sent for CLA. > I see the Beseler now makes a pano mask for their 45 series enlargers. > Steep price(139.95-B&H), but not like it will ever break, right? Has > anyone used this carrier yet? Currently, I am using a 6x6 carrier masked > off to the Widelux negative size. > > Chris Williams

From Rangefinder Mailing List;
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001
From: photogeek@att.net
Subject: Re: [RF List] Hasselblad X-Pan
It's a nice camera. A little bigger and heavier than a M6. Maybe more the weight of a F100.
Images are very sharp with both the 45 & 90. I don't have the 30 so I can't say. The RF patch is a little smaller than the M6's. But quite bright and easy to use. Everything is very solid. I wish there were shutter speed readout in the finder instead of on the back of the camera. The AE seems pretty accurate (though I don't use it much). Not nearly as loud as you might think for a camera with a 6 cm shutter.
I don't use it as much as I probably should. Mostly because the lack of a 35/2 or 50/2 makes it not the best travel camera. Of course, a 35 or 50/2 that covered the pano format would be a huge lens. But I'd be happy with one that just covered the 135 frame.
It's hard to think of good pano format compositions. It's easy to fall into the "landscape" trap, and just use the camera for that.
I can't think of what else to say. E-mail me if you have specific questions.

From Rangefinder Mailing List;
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001
From: Polak187@aol.com
Subject: Re: [RF List] Hasselblad X-Pan
Great camera, but lack of speeds in the viewfinder drives you nuts, slow lenses but very sharp, strange panoramic switch. Besides that it's a great piece of equipment.
Some users complained about finish that wears of easly, but I haven't had this problem yet.
Matt. The soon to be one and only xpan master.

From Rangefinder Mailing List;
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001
From: Polak187@aol.com
Subject: Re: [RF List] Hasselblad X-Pan
tical@libero.it writes:
If you think carefully, you can obtain much more quality, flexibility and panoramic effect by using a Mamiya 7 and a pair of snips (or the accessory which allows you to use 24x36 films in it).
Hmmmm...
Polish logic:
the widest lens on the mamiya 7 is 43mm which is about 21mm in 35mm with your pair of snips (92 degrees). 45mm in panorama mode is 24mm (84 degrees). You are loosing about 8 degrees. Price wise you are still better of with xpan.
So following that 30mm on xpan in panorama mode will be a 94 deggres (that's a number out of their manual). No camera can catch that much on that wide strip of film excluding widlux or horizon of course.
I don't know the price of mamiya 7 and a 43mm lens but on ebay you can buy brand new 30mm for xpan for $2200 and xpan with 45mm for $1500. Plus it's like having 4 lenses: 45 becomes 24 and 30 becomes 19. You can add a 90mm for about 400 and you are set.
Can your mamiya do that?
Matt

From Rangefinder Mailing List;
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001
From: Toti Cal tical@libero.it
Subject: Re: [RF List] Hasselblad X-Pan
FTlix L=pez de Maturana fmaturana@inicia.es wrote:

> No flame at all, Toti. You are right, but,please what is a panoramic camera?

Ha! After the RF one, It seems I'm entangled into a definition issue again! Well, lacking an absolute definition, I'll try to give you my personal one, in order to focus the technical aspects which made a panoramic camera something very different from a camera which uses an ultra wide angle lens.
Panoramic camera: a camera that covers a field larger than the one covered by the lens it uses.
Examples:

Horizon 202: lens 28 mm (75Y) - field covered: 120Y Noblex 135: lens 29mm (little less than 75Y) - field covered: 136Y Widelux F8: lens 26mm (little more than 75Y) - field covered 140Y Roundshot 35/35: lens 35mm (63Y) - field covered 360Y

Advantages: you photograph mountains, you see mountains (with, say, the Hologon, you photograph mountains, you see barely visible hills thrown away toward the horizon by the perspective).
Disadvantages: you must keep the focal plan perpendicular to the ground, unless you don't mind to obtain a curved horizon. How: by using mechanical tricks. Most of them (all?) use a rotating lens; someone here had the idea of a sliding lens (great! Finally no more curved focal plans); someone may try to assemble a camera with two or tree lenses side by side (ok, only kidding); I don't know, I'm not an engineer, a rotating element seems to be the best solution, but I'm ignorant, and maybe it is not the only. The others are not panoramic cameras, but cameras which mount a super wide angle lens. If you want just a "panoramic" effect given by the rapport between the larger side of the frame and the shorter one, all you need is a lens wide enough and a pair of scissors. You'll obtain a cropped image giving a panoramic effect, but the short focal length will cause the loss of most of the details farther than +/- 50 metres; this doesn't happen with the above mentioned cameras, hence they're true panoramic cameras.

>What are exactly the pictures I'm getting from my XPAN?

That is: mechanically cropped wide angle pictures.

>And, is a XPAN a MF with 135 film?

It is:
1) a 135 film camera which "half uses" MF lenses, or
2) a medium format camera with the "panoramic" switch always in the "on" position (shades down).
Both definitions describes exactly the same thing by using different words.
I live in the south east, and always have a bottle of good red ready. Best.
--
Toti Cal=
mailto: tical@libero.it
http://web.tiscalinet.it/ephoto

Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001
From: michael@westmoreland.demon.co.uk
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Re: Which lenses for a 617 format camera ?
An excellent cheap long lens to cover 617 is the 203 mm 7.7 Kodak Ektar.
----- Original Message -----
From: Timothy Harvey timothy_harvey@hotmail.com To: Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001
Subject: Which lenses for a 617 format camera ?

> Dear All > > I am new to panoramic photography, and in the process of trying to build a > 6x17 format camera. > > Could anyone advise me as to what I should look for when choosing a lens > and/or suggest a few possible lenses (preferably ones which can be obtained > second hand). > > Also, if anyone else has ever successfully built their own panporamic > cameras, any advise ?? > > Thank you very much. > > Tim Harvey

From Panoramic Mailing List;
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001
From: ADavidhazy ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Re: just a thought...
I am not sure that a traverse is what was meant by the original poster ... wait ... maybe it was! periodic 140 degree pans ... yes ... but as Peter says this is maybe best acomplished with a standard camera. Anyway, this next bit was interesting to me:

> A friend of mine was part of a team that did a book showing both banks of > the River Thames from Tower Bridge to Greenwich a couple of years back, > repeating something which had been done in the 1930s. I think they shot > every 300m from the opposite bank with a 300mm on 6x17cm Fuji.

I photographed the full length of a historic street in my town by driving down the mile or so long avenue with a panoramic camera that was not allowed to rotate but simply pulled the film past its shutter slot. The speed of the car was adjusted to match the speed of the images of the buildings' facade's as we passed by (since they were at various distances from the road centerline).
Needless to say this was accomplished with police escort so the car would not have to stop along its route. In the morning we did one side of the road and in the evening the other. The negatives were about 25 or so feet long. I then made 5x enlargements of them using my "home-made" strip enlarger. The resulting prints measured roughly 125 feet in length.
BTW, I heard that at least the Globus Brothers also did a similar thing in NYC.
regards,
Andrew o o 0 0 o . o Davidhazy, Imaging and Photo Tech
\/\/\/\/\/\/ www.rit.edu/~andpph 716-475-2592

From Panoramic Mailing List;
Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001
From: Jook Leung jook360@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Konstructions-Rotators
Hello Thomas,
Here is my page for a simple Coolpix 990 rotator.
http://360vr.com/tablepano/
Of course instead of using wine bottles, this can be adapted to small table-top tripods. To defeat the ball head, put a collar (like a thick metal washer) over it so that it only moves horizontally.
http://360vr.com/amc_iqtvra/
-Jook

From Panoramic Mailing List;
Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001
From: michael@westmoreland.demon.co.uk
To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: Just a thought
As Liz Hymans so kindly says, I have been doing linear pans "a lot". It amounts to over 30 years-worth, and involves hundreds of subjects. these are joiners, mostly streets and long-distance skylines. (Ordinairy cameras though, not turning ones). Digital software makes it a lot easier now than it was in the 1960s with the primitive colour technology of that time.: The stitching routine in Picture Publisher (nothing existed like it in Photoshop) has been my main tool over recent years, with Panavue as a useful adjunct. Most subjects are too long to show on the web but I will send printed examples and articles by post to serious enquirers.
I considered at some length using a static moving-slit camera synchronised with a moving vehicle many years ago to do street facades: the main problem was uneven road surface leading to wobbly pictures and although military technology existed to iron this out it was far too expensive unless a lucrative market existed to get your money back. There were some primitive examples in a big pan show in Paris in the 80's which looked as though they were done like this, but they only confirmed my view that it was unlikely at that time ever to be much more than a jokey one-off gimmick. .
The finest professional example I know of such techniques is the wonderful record of the quarter-mile bas-reliefs of Angkor Wat in Cambodia made by Professor Poncar and a team from Cologne Technical College; this was done with a synchronised Roundshot, 100ft lengths of 70mm film and specially-constructed vehicle and rail system. An allied tour-de-force is Bob Meiborgs astonishing circus train photograph done of a moving subject from a stationary race-finish camera, synchronised with a radar-gun, and using 14 ft of 70mm. This is for my money one of the greatest photographic images of all time, a wonderful subject achieved with unique technology; but you are lucky if youve seen it, as its just about totally unviewable in the mass media. (even more frustratingly, given that some things can only be seen on walls, with classic Catch-22 logic the people who own the walls often wont show things which cant be publicised in the mass media)
To return to photography from moving vehicles: there is an imaging scientist over here in the UK of my acqaintance who has developed a light-gathering apparatus for making instantaneous 360-degree images from a van: as it can make 3000 images a minute it doesnt matter if the van is moving. The "camera" is a circular array of image sensors about the size and shape of a tin of tuna fish screwed to the roof, and it feeds its information into the processing equipment aboard the vehicle; the system is at present analogue, but could be digitised. I have seen large hard copy prints of this stuff and the quality is very impressive.

Date: 24 Jun 2001
From: andpph@vaxb.rit.edu (ADavidhazy)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.misc
Subject: Traveling Exhibition available
I have put together a small exhibition of peripheral portraits made with an improvised linear array digital camera and printed with an Epson ink-jet printer. The idea behind them is that they are available for exhibition or study in any venue that you would like to display them in and your only responsibiltity is to send them on to the next destination wherever that might be. They are not archival. No hassles about insurance or damage or loss or anything. Reasonable care is hoped for ... that is all.
The exhibit consists of 40 unmounted 5.5x7 and 5.5x14 inch prints that are shipped in a 12x16 manila envelope. At this time the photographs are being shown in California and the next stop is in Mexico.
Details and sample images can be seen at:
http://www.rit.edu/~andpph/davidhazy.html

Andrew o o 0 0 o . o Davidhazy, Imaging and Photo Tech \/\/\/\/\/\/ www.rit.edu/~andpph 716-475-2592 __________| |_____________________________________

Date: 26 Jun 2001
From: waynea1048@aol.com (WayneA1048)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Noblex 150UX

>Any other comments would be appreciated-- for example, how long you used the >camera before you got tired of it!

This is the critical point. I found that the panoramic format was extremely difficult to compose and process. The distortion from the rotating lens severely limits the type of perspectives I could photograph, e.g., no dominant horizontal lines. A 140 degree view is hard to compose and the light conditions can vary considerably from one end of the picture to another. The Noblex has a rather erratic film advance mechanism so some shots will run together (never color, only TP) and yes, in spite of the electronically controlled motor, banding does occur occasionally. So if it's a shot I really want I will normally shoot at least three exposures. Having said all that, when everything comes together the final product can be stunning. The Noblex lens is sharp; my BW prints show amazing detail. Using this camera for a while will make you a better photographer, but be prepared for a lot of frustration and failure. So about three years for me, but I still use it now and then and for some interior shots.
PS I am using the 150. This is the vanilla 120 model with no shift or focusing controls. For around $2500 new, I thought many of its construction features were really cheesy

Date: 27 Jun 2001
From: harold007@aol.com (Harold007)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Noblex 150UX
Have nothing but success with my Noblex 6/150U. Learned all of my mistakes on a Widelux F7.
Go with standard model. You will not do any close ups. if you need to get within 15 to 20 feet you can stop down.
Multple exposures with 1/15 for 66 seconds will give you a one second exposure, set the appropriate F-stop. Have many perfect night shots with this. Speed module is expensive and eats batteries and even has its own set for that purpose. You will get differrent effects using multiple exposures vs. the speed module if light is moving, i.e. Cars and how many.
Key to film advance is to make sure the film is tight and always use the load procedure. Load Film, close back, Press shutter then wind to postion 1. If you advance the knob any then press you will get funny spacing. Never hand banding problem, but have had film spacing issue when moved the wind knob before pressing the shutter.
Have seen funny things happen on the take up spool. Some films wind tight others taht may be thicker? have gotten fat on me.
You will get very sharp negatives. It is not uncommon to blow up a noblex image to 20x60 frame size. Always tri-pod and level. You can hand-hold the noblex but it is best on a tri-pod
Don't need the panolux. Never shoot into the Sun. Was built to speed up the rotation when you hit a bright spot.
I always bracket and always shoot two rolls of film. One Negative and One slide. I pick my range then bracket three, then change my speed or F/Stop. With six pictures on each roll. It works out.
My other scenario is to shoot the slide stuff in the above manner then only shoot three shots on the negative. I usually shoot 100 film so the latitude is there. I usually have three printable images on negatives. That is if I composed it properly.
I usually get process only on the negative film. I cut it myself. First edit off the negatives then group the film and have contacts made.
Noblex is light and fits into my LowPro just fine. In the bottom, in the middle, with my 35mm around it.

From Leica Mailing List;
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001
From: Peter Miller peter@silverprintpress.com
Subject: [Leica] Xpan vs 6x17
The reason I stick with the 6x17 is because one of my agents, Panoramic Images, has made comparison high res scans between the two and and 6x17, of course, is the winner. Their general rule is to put 6x17's in their catalog and Xpans in their files and websites. They find that many buyers of their images often use only a portion of the 7" long trannie, which would be difficult with the 35mm version. However, they did suggest I use one for unobtrusive shooting. I also use a V Pan, which is a 6x17 format. The longest lens I have for that is a 500mm.
Still, I wouldn't be going to China lugging a 6x17 unless it was only for pans. If I photographed in some countries with a 6x17 I would perhaps gain too much recognition with the authorities.
Peter
Peter
Sounds like you might like a Hasselblad Xpan...
It is my favourite camera these days and you might like the way it complements the Leica Ms. Great lenses, tough bodies and good value (except perhaps the 30mm which though a must-have for me is priced exotically). I understand there are more than a few folk who are giving their 6x17 cameras a rest now they have an Xpan!

Bests Adrian

From Leica Mailing List;
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001
From: apbbeijing apbbeijing@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Leica] Xpan vs 6x17
Peter
That is very interesting. I know how impressive the 6x17 images are - wonderful as transparencies especially. I know some agencies dupe up all the 35mm panoramics onto 6x17 because they sell better but of course the quality is not to same. Printing 6x17 is troublesome in most places.
You might be surprised by how many fancy panoramic cameras are in use in China. I believe it is the number one market for Seitz who have quite a number of state of the art slit enlarging systems around the People's Republic. Not used the service myself but would love to have some 80 foot enlargements done one day!
Bests

Adrian - -- Adrian Bradshaw Corporate and Editorial Photography Beijing, China e-mail apbbeijing@yahoo.com OR adrianpeterbradshaw@compuserve.com website: http://www.apbphoto.com

From Leica Mailing List
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001
From: Mark Rabiner mark@rabiner.cncoffice.com
Subject: Re: [Leica] Xpan vs 6x17 vs 6x12
apbbeijing wrote:

> Peter > > That is very interesting. I know how impressive the 6x17 images are - > wonderful as transparencies especially. I know some agencies dupe up all the > 35mm panoramics onto 6x17 because they sell better but of course the quality > is not to same. Printing 6x17 is troublesome in most places. >...

I just checked the website of Panoramic Images, Ltd. (which is in Chicago)
http://www.panoramicimages.com/home.html
their hundreds of clickable thumbnails are all in the 6x17 format horizontal. But a cover page layout showed a 6x12 and some verticals.
A 6x12 will fit in an 4x5 enlarger. A 6x12 to me is still a rectangle and not a strip that you read left to right. (Or right to left) a 6x12 is close to what you see when you go to the movies. I like that, I'm used to that. It feels right to me. A 6x12 gives you 6 on a roll of 120, heck you can bracket! a 6x12 is an antiformat. It looks more original that the typical formats, 6x17 being one of them.
To print a 6x12 you can cut paper in half but if you stick to using a full sheet it looks pretty good. You don't have to have a second stack for a separate panoramic portfolio. I get 1/2 (one over two) when i use the 60x30 mask with my Hasselblad which i do often so i have some experience with it's mise en page.
When Hasselblad came out with its "medium format" 35mm panoramic point and shoot the XPAN i was surprised that the format turned out to me 24x65. The Hasselblad square itself is 55! and 24x55 which is what you get when you use a mask with the Mamiya 6 is a good step wider than 6x12! A 2.25 aspect ration instead of 2. (6x17 is 2.83 as i figure it). They wanted the XPAN to compete against i guess the very popular 6x17 format, a 6x17 point and shoot! What a mistake.
When they make one which gives me more on a roll I'll think about getting one. Like somewhere between 24x48 and 24x55!
I'd love a Hasselblad back which gives me 24 60x30's on a 120 roll! When i shoot 630 with my 645 I'm flushing a tad more silver down the drain than I'd care to and getting 16 on a roll. But it's not a bad deal all in all the contacts look ok.
Mark Rabiner
http://www.rabiner.cncoffice.com/

Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001
From: Roland roland.rashleigh-berry@virgin.net
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: challenging sources/answers Re: Q: focal distance of a Widelux F8
I've taken a roll through one and it should be obvious what the focal distance is once I get the prints back. If not I'll try taking a roll indoors and setting the f stop to f2.8 in which case the depth of field will be so narrow that there won't be any doubt. In fact I am suprised that reviews give this f2.8 lens as a plus point since you can not focus the camera and this effectively gives you a narrow band of focus that would only be of use if the camera were focussed to infinity which it is not.
I tend to doubt reviews. I have seen this 5 metres as the focol distance repeated -- but in the same article it will say about the viewfinder "what you see is what you get" and that the viewfinder covers the exact same view as the camera takes. However, if you handle one of these cameras, it will soon become obvious that the viewfinder covers a lesser angle than the lens.
Yes, I do challenge sources and answers. If they are repeated from a review then they are not to be trusted as reveiws themselves are untrustworthy. I respect those who have actually taken measurements with the camera such as the person who had taken notes in his student days
that his F7 would have the nearest object in focus at F8 with the lens set to f2.8. That implies a focal length of 9.5 feet at the most. Maybe less and approaching 8 feet. Perhaps 8 feet itself if he were fussy about the focus. And if it were fixed focus to 8 feet then the camera would be useless at infinity since it would not be in focus even if stopped down to f11.
I have looked at a few sites where there are more than one photos taken with an F8 and the distant background is not in focus in any of them. This implies that the focal distance is nore like 8 feet rather than 5 metres. But one or two rolls through the camera should settle it.
Robert Monaghan wrote:

> re: challenging response, manufacturer's references etc. etc. >....

The importers can't answer the questions either. And I can't write in Japanese.

From Rangefinder Mailing List;
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001
From: Polak187@aol.com
Subject: Panoramic slide mounts...
Yesterday in B&H; I found slide mounts for my panoramic shots. They are made by Mamiya and originally they were supposed to accomodate Mamiya 7 with 35mm film adapter but I found out that they also fit Hasselblad Xpan. Price was $35 for 50 (ouch!) but it's worth it. They are standard 6x7 when mounted.
Now how do you project those damn things without getting in debt?
Matt

Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001
From: "A. Buck, G. Wietelmann" <buckwiet@yahoo.com>
Reply to: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
To: Panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au
Subject: list archive

Is there an archive of this list? I just looked on
Marco Pauck's website and it only goes up to 5/1 of
this year.

Andy

Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 From: "Thomas B. Kunz" tbk@tbk.de> Subject: Spherical Panoramics To: Panoramalist panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au> Hi friends, the company "Panorama Technologies" is still working now at www.easypano.net with a new website. The old webite www.easypano.com may not distribute the program panoweaver because IPIX has stopped this in US. But here you can now update and buy the brand new Panoweaver 2.2 (PC) or 2.1 (Mac) if you want. Please help this young crew of programmers and buy this excelent programm for making shperical panoramics. Buy a licence without keys. Please use for download also this site: http://www.geocities.com/nonyesey/easypano/ to minimize the trafic from the homepage. MAC = ~ 1.4MB PC = ~ 3.8 MB Thank you! comments welcome friendly Thomas German Reseller for Panoweaver www.tbk.de
From: ralf@free-photons.de (Ralf R. Radermacher) Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Subject: Re: Noblex etc.. Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 Max octopussy@tin.it> wrote: > I like panoramic (true panoramic): any suggestion about Noblex 135 > (ok,isn't MF height :-) > or others reasonable priced ,NO HORIZON please :-( ? Well, if you must insist on not buying a Horizon, you'll have to spend a lot of money or you'll have to make do with a slower lens (4.5 instead of 2.8), no spirit level (this alone makes the camera unuseable) and no speeds below 1/60 - a sunshine camera. All this for 1000 USD - twice the money for a camera with half the features. The most basic 'extras' like a decent speed range and a built-in spirit level with one of the 'better' versions of the 135 will cost you another 200 bucks. No cure for the slow lens, though. Oh, and don't expect to do quick snaps of moving objects or any other kind of action shots. The trigger delay of a first-generation AF camera is nothing against the eternity a Noblex takes to crank up its drum and take the picture. Are you sure this is what you want? Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - K"ln/Cologne, Germany private homepage: http://www.free-photons.de manual cameras and picture galleries - updated 26 Sept. 2001 Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses
From: Roland roland.rashleigh-berry@virgin.net> Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Subject: Re: Noblex etc.. Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 Max wrote: > > I like panoramic (true panoramic): any suggestion about Noblex 135 > (ok,isn't MF height :-) > or others reasonable priced ,NO HORIZON please :-( ? > Something about stitching software: is a quality alternative ( I own a > Pentax 645,45mm&35mm)? > Sorry, I write English a little only: I hope is understandable. > Thank you in advance. > Massimo. Horizons can be picked up quite cheaply. OK it is plasticky but at least you have infinity included in your depth of field at all apertures. You should take great care about that when chosing an alternative camera. No, stitching is very limited. You can get funny bends in large buildings if they span more than one of the frames. Your entire scene needs to be very fragmented for stitching to look conclusive. OTOH, the curves you get in straight lines can be disconcerting as well if you use a swing lens panoramic camera. A super-wide angle lens might give you better results. Maybe a full or half frame fish-eye lens plus software to transform the image could be good as well.
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 From: adri de groot adrijanus@juno.com> Subject: RE: Chinese Phepan panoramic camera To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au FYI: I just received this email from China: Dear Adri De Groot Thanks for your inquiry of our Panflex camera. We just authorized a distributor in New York, please contact with him about the details of purchase. ARMATO'S Pro Photo & Video Michael F. Armato President Tel: 718-628-6800/800-628-6801 Fax: 718-628-7441 e-mail:armatos@ix.netcom.com When you use 135 accessory, you can get 11 exposures per roll of 36 frames. Please check our web site: www.phepan.com Best regards,
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 From: Michel Dusariez dusariez@pano360.org> Subject: Larscan camera To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Hi , Larscan fans !! Most banding problems comes from not strong enough motor torque regarding pulling force to move the film. Camera too heavy ? - no problems if well balanced You have also to observe if bandind occurs, on all the film or on only portions of it - are the banding at same angles at each turns ? Maybe the film plate push to hard on the film, the plate springs maybe have to be lighten. Size and place of the slit are also sources of banding problems. We use in our cameras, a slit size between 1 and 2 millimeters, placed at about 2 millimetres from the film plane. YOU WROTE : It seems as if the camera is oscillating while pivoting. PLEASE EXPLAIN !! Have a look at http://www.pano360.org/ Good luck in your construction, feel free to ask more. Michel DUSARIEZ Source of Larscan system from the inventor Lars Larsen. >Hello experts! > >Please help me. > >I am trying to build a small Larscan-camera, using 35 mm film. > >Does anybody know the exact reason for the occurrence of almost perodical >vertical banding on the negative. It seems as if the camera is oscillating >while pivoting. >(motor problem? friction problem? camera to heavy? camera not balanced? ) > >Holger Dreis=F6rner -- http://www.pano360.org/ Michel DUSARIEZ UNLIMITED FIELDS RESEARCH PANOPTIC IMAGING asbl KITE AERIAL PHOTOGRAPHY WORLDWIDE ASSOCIATION - FOUNDATION 14, Avenue Capitaine PIRET B-1150 BRUXELLES - BELGIUM =46ax 32 2 512 68 29
From: Charles Pezeshki pezeshki@mme.wsu.edu> Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format,rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Subject: Noblex 150UX Review Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 Hi Folks, I had asked folks earlier about the Noblex, cuz I wanted to buy one. Well, I did. I took it out last weekend, and you can check out the work done in about two hours here: http://users.moscow.com/pezeshki/panpage.html You can't get to this page off my main page, so you have to use this link. There are 5 pix, each of 120K+, so it takes a little while to load. What do I think of the Noblex? I bought the 150 UX. It takes 120 film. The UX comes with the slow speed module that gives slow shutter speeds down to 2 seconds. If you don't get this, then you're limited at (I think) 1/15 sec. Since I shoot lots of landscapes in low light, the slow speed module was essential. Some people have said that you can use the multiple exposure function to replace it, but I can't imagine not getting some fuzziness if you had to hit the button 15 times or so. What a pain in the butt! Optically, the Rotar lens is just super-sharp, and super-small. You can't see it most of the time cuz it's hidden in the camera. I put an 81A filter on it that I plan never to take off. I don't think you can put multiple filters on the lens, which is a bit of a bummer. The Noblex uses these funky magnetic filters, but they seem to work. Pretty wild! I didn't buy the Panolux exposure module, which evens out exposure over the frame. I don't really see why anyone would want it. I used a spot meter like I do for my LF stuff, and spotted the highs and lows and went for it. It worked great. The exposure barrel swing is super-smooth, and I saw no banding. In fact, aside from the fact that a 1 sec. exposure takes 90 sec. to swing through an arc, it was a lot like working a LF camera-- just a lot easier. The 150UX focusses (it has three settings, and a DOF table on the back). I focussed it, and it worked. Mostly, I left it on infinity focus, but it was nice when shooting a couple of close-ups to have the focus feature. I'm glad I got it. I stopped down the 4.5 lens to at least f8. It was just incredibly sharp. Mechanically, these things have had problems in the past. Robert White, whom I bought the camera, had stopped carrying them, and told them to get their act together. Robert White says that they now have. Everything on my camera was mechanically flawless (for the design). The design, save for the lens swing mechanism, is relatively rudimentary. Film is wound with a knob, and you have to be careful to make sure the film is tight. The gap between frames was even save for between frame 3 and 4 (6 frames/roll), but it did not overlap. The battery wells are ridiculously place on the back of the camera, and if you're not careful, if you're shooting hand-held, you'll push out a battery! The viewfinder shows about 80% of what you'll get on the film. The biggest surprise was the fact that there was a lot more 'top' on the picture than was evident in the viewfinder. The problem with this is that if you're shooting in the direction of the sun, you may get flare that you didn't count on. Film was easy to load. I didn't get any negative scratching, as has been reported by others in the past. The biggest question is: is it worth it? Is it worth spending $2500 for a camera that does what the Noblex does? It was for me. The shots I took with that thing, I've been visualizing in my head forever. The transparencies are tack-sharp, beautiful things, and the creative interpretation that one can get is just wild. Shooting with the camera was easy. After LF, anything is easy! And the results-- well, those are some of the best shots of old-growth cedars I've ever shot. So I'm pretty happy. Any questions, don't hesitate to ask. Chuck http://users.moscow.com/pezeshki
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 From: Bill Kennedy 70602.2000@compuserve.com> Subject: Printing To: "INTERNET:panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au" panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au> Hi Mike: A 1270 will print 10 feet long, at least with the PC software that comes with it. The trick is that you must tell it the length is user defined. It will pop up a box that allows you to put the paper length in hundredths of an inch, so you can put in 12000 for 120 inches, or 10 feet. I don't know anything about the Mac software, but would assume it would do the same, somehow. Bill Kennedy
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 From: Mike Sinclair sinclair@microsoft.com> Subject: RE: Printing To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au The kind folks at Epson answered my query fairly promptly (see below) and solved the problem. I am very happy with XP (hasn't crashed in 2 months). -Mike- Thank you for taking the time to contact Epson. It is my pleasure to respond to your inquiry. Below are the steps to set a custom paper size in Windows XP: 1. Click on 'START' 'SETTINGS' 'PRINTERS'. 2. Highlight the icon for your printer and click on 'FILE' 'SERVER PROPERTIES'. 3. Put a check mark in the 'CREATE A NEW FORM' box, and name the form (Example: Payroll Checks). 4. Enter your dimensions for Form Size and Margins. WARNING: The maximum width in Win NT is 13.61' 5. Click on 'SAVE FORM', then click on 'OK'. > -----Original Message----- > From: MIKE GRACE [mailto:amazing50@hotmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 10:07 AM > To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au > Subject: RE: Printing > > > > Non-standard paper sizes are inefficient according to Bill G > and therefore > are being eliminated from society. Going over to XP is just > asking for piles > of trouble. > > It's big selling point is that it doesn't crash as often as the other > Microsoft operating systems, some promise eh! > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: Mike Sinclair sinclair@microsoft.com> > Reply-To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au > To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au > Subject: RE: Printing * Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 > > Speaking about older printers, does anyone know how to > specify a non-standard paper length for an Epson Stylus Photo > under Windows XP? The only driver XP will load (that comes > with XP) only acknowledges the few standard paper sizes but > no arbitrary size or even their stock panoramic paper. Under > Win98 you could do this. XP refuses to load the older Win98 driver. > > Thanks. > > -Mike-
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 From: Bill Kennedy 70602.2000@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Printing To: "INTERNET:panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au" panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au> X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Yup, I've printed many long prints with the 1270. . . in fact, none less than 44 inches, usually around 7 feet. You might want to look at the following settings -- In the program you are using to print the picture, select 'User Defined' for media size. If you don't have that option you may have to use another program. Then under 'Properties' (printer properties button), you will get the 1270 software control panel. On the 'Paper' tab, AGAIN select 'User Defined' as the paper size. THEN CLICK ON 'User Defined' in the window with all the standard sizes. This will bring up a new window where you can enter the paper size in hundredths of an inch. To use 12 x 114 inch paper, put in 1200 and 11400. In the 'Main' tab, be sure you have selected 'Landscape'. You might want to select 'Preview' as well. Saves a lot of time, ink, and paper. Bill Kennedy
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 From: Bill Kennedy 70602.2000@compuserve.com> Subject: Epson 1270 & Long Prints To: Panoramic Forum Panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au> Hi TL: I've never been able to get PhotoShop to print long prints properly, but I'm not a PhotoShop expert. To do something I know will work with software I know you have, please consider the following -- 1. Assemble the images with an image assembler. I use PanaVue Image Assembler and really like it. 2. Use PhotoShop to rotate (if necessary) and crop the image. You probably don't want to crop the image as much as you would think as the printing software seems to crop more whether you want it to or not. 3. Use PhotoShop to resize the image to 10 inches tall, for instance, if you are going to make faux Cirkut camera prints. Be careful of the resampling setting. You need about 200 DPI (PPI) to have the same quality as a large format wet process print, although the subject matter affects this somewhat. I've seen absolutely perfect prints at 175 DPI, but you won't always get away with that. Of course that means you need enough data to begin with. . . and a good way to do that is to take more images. . . so shoot with the camera in a vertical mode. I had both the camera and PhotoShop save the images as the highest quality .jpg files. When you are using PhotoShop to size the image, it will tell you the resulting DPI. 4. With the 1270 comes a program called Photo Factory. It can print the assembled image properly. It also has a killer automatic retouching 'button'. Really nice. Saves a ton of screwing around, but you'll still have to use either PhotoShop or manual retouching in Photo Factory to fix some things a lot of the time. Just like dodging and burning, only you can do a lot more, particularly in PhotoShop. 5. In Photo Factory, do the following exactly. . . a. From the first screen 'Print Options', click 'Standard Prints' b. Click 'New Roll' c. Name the roll d. Click the 'Add' button e. Click the 'Import and Retouch' button f. Click the 'From File' button g. Select the file that has the assembled image h. Click 'Make Changes' (relax, it knows what it's doing) i. Click 'Step 3 Print Assignment' j. Select 'Fit To Media Size' k. Set 'Height / Width Ratio' to 'Trim To Fit Print Size' l. Set Media Size to 'User Defined' m. Select 'Properties' n. In the 'Main' tab, set the paper type, quality, and check 'Preview' o. Select the 'Paper' tab p. Click 'Paper Size' q. Select 'User Defined' (at the bottom of the list), AND THEN CLICK ON IT r. Set width to 1100 for an 11" wide paper s. Set length to whatever length PhotoShop made the print when it was the right height. If it was 97", set the window to 9700 or a little more t. Click OK u. Select 'Landscape' v. Click OK w. Click 'Step 4 Print' x. Click 'Print' It will take it awhile, but you should see a preview of the image and be prompted to print it. You actually have not lost any time. . . i.e. the same time is used whether the preview is displayed or not. Of course if you are making multiple copies or gain a lot of confidence in your work you won't want the preview as it requires you to be there to OK the preview before it will print. Incidentally, you'll probably want to get the roll paper accessory for the 1270. And more incidentally, the new model 1280 is supposed to be able to do a full bleed. It does this with only a firmware change, and the inclusion of some additional absorbent material in which the edge overspray is absorbed, I understand. I don't know anything about it otherwise. With the 1270 I tell it the paper is half an inch wider than the desired print, as it thinks it must have a boarder. You can trim it off, but it is actually handy for framing if a mat is used. I usually have it show me a preview of the image. The preview isn't too good, but it tells you if you have screwed something up badly and prevents a lot of wasted paper, ink, and particularly time. Although I haven't done this, I assume that if you put on a long roll of paper and convert the printer to bulk ink, you could tell it you wanted 20 prints, start it, make sure there was space for the output, and go to bed. Hope this helps. Bill Kennedy
From: robertdfeinman@netscape.net (Robert D Feinman) Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Subject: Panoramic Landscapes and Cityscapes Website Date: 31 Oct 2001 You are invited to look at the new additions to my website. I have posted a series of panoramic pictures of Colorado taken this past March. There are some horizontals, verticals and a few 360 degree images. I have also added a few new Photoshop tips of interested to panoramic photographers. (It's sort of medium format interest since they were taken with a Noblex camera format: 60mm by 24mm ) http://robertdfeinman.com
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 From: Alan Zinn azinn@netbox.com> Subject: Re: Things To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au you wrote: >Hello to Everyone again-- > >Thanks for your replies about cameras and finishing. > >I was wrong in my name. It is Jasper Engineering that makes the panorama >attachment for your "other" camera. The website is at: > >http://stereoscopy.com/jasper > >If you go to the panorama head and print it, there is complete directions on >how to use it. > >Some people mentioned scanning negatives into the computer as a way of doing >stuff. Where do I get info on scanning? I have not tried that mode for any >reason yet although I do have access to a scanner. > >Thanks. > >Tim > >Timothy A. Stabler, Ph.D. >Department of Biology >Indiana University Northwest >Gary, IN 46408 >Phone: 219-980-6718 >FAX: 219-980-7125 > Tim, Check out these URL's: http://www.bob-weber.com/ http://www.interlog.com/~pinkster/photo/ http://scantips.com/ All my work is scanned with a Umax PLIII from negs. AZ Maker of Lookaround panoramic camera. www.geocities.com/soho/gallery/8874/ or keyword.com lookaround
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 From: "George S. Pearl" alps007@mindspring.com> Subject: Horizont Camera Comparison? To: PanoramaList panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au> Dear Alan and Group, I just wanted to say this to you for what it is worth....I muse at the amount of post over the email group about how much trouble people are having with their Horizont cameras. This goes on and on and on with how they don't work because of one reason or another. Those cameras only provide 140 degree view, if that much. I constantly wonder why would someone buy such a piece of junk for the money rather than getting one of your Look-Around cameras that are so much far superior in every way? I have over and over told people to look at your camera rather than going with the Russian trouble maker. I do not have one of your cameras, but have seen them and what can be produced from your cameras while attending the IAPP meetings. Although I do not as of yet own one, I just wanted you to know that I am a big promoter of your camera and your quality workmanship. What I am proposing is that perhaps you think about doing a little shootout comparison between your camera and the Russian paper weight. Your camera is so simple, there is really nothing to go wrong. It will give the user a 360 degree or more image while the Horizont is only 1/3 of that coverage. Your camera is unique, and could be a way to "Pick up Girls!", or at least meet a bunch of new people every you pull it out and start filming. I bet there are lots of people who come up to you all the time to ask you about it. Your camera has so many better things going for it than the Horizont that I for one just could not see why one would buy a problem camera over your Look-Around camera for the money. There are only a couple of things that could be seen as not as good with your camera, but for overall what your camera does do, it should not be a problem to anyone who uses it and gets used to it. The Horizont has 'real' shutter speeds, and I am only guessing must weigh less than yours. It might also take up a little less space in the camera bag than yours too. That is all that I can think of, and in my way of thinking isn't enough to be a turning factor for buying the troublesome Russian camera. Is there someone in the organization who owns both cameras? Perhaps we could get them to do an article on the comparison for the Panorama Magazine? I would like to see it. As for me, I have those Swiss cameras in my panorama arsenal to shoot big groups with, so I would be a bad prospect. I have never had a Horizont, but have seen people using them.... Bob Erickson whipped one out of his bag once when we were doing a shoot together....it wasn't working right, and I think he only had one speed or some such while he fiddled with it. I never saw any pictures from it. Well that's it for me today. I have said my peace, now I will get back to work. Bye. My best, George S. Pearl, QPP
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 From: Glenn Barry glenn@acay.com.au> Subject: Re: More or using pano tool viewer To: kkratzke@mac.com, "Panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au" Panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au> Hi All, As there has been more interest in this than I had anticipated and I have uploaded both versions to my website: http://www.acay.com.au/~glenn go through the first page and click on the links button in the bottom menu bar to get to the page. Some tips: Mac users: you have to ignore the loading instructions in the PDF, and just use the photoshop load actions button from the actions palette. Otherwise all of the instructions in the PDF apply equally to both versions. Both versions: One thing to remember is that if you sharpen heavily and get haloing, you can reduce this side effect by changing the opactiy and blending in the highlights of the sharpened layer. Enjoy Glenn kkratzke@mac.com wrote: > Hi Glen, > > Please send copy of the Mac version to me. Sharpening is one of the > most critical parts to making a scene look good. If you want and if > this becomes popular, I can post a copy of the software on my web site > so people can download it themselves. Thanks. > > Kevin Kratzke > www.kekus.com > On Monday, November 5, 2001, at 09:17 PM, Glenn Barry wrote: > > > Hi Robert, > > > > I noticed some of tour tutorials on photoshop, primarily the one on > > sharpening. > > > > I have been using a great freeware program called ultra sharpen for some > > time. It is actiually a photoshop action which makes good use of some of > > the inbuilt filters. > > > > For anyone out there that is interested let me know and I'll send you a > > copy. > > > > Anyone working on Macs if you need a copy of this as it is only PC I > > have > > made a version that works on Macs as well, let me know and I'll send you > > the right version. > > > > Glenn > > > > Robert Feinman wrote: > > > >> Previous message: > >>> I'm using ptviewer for my web page panoramas and I see a request for > >>> PTdefault.html everytime my page is accessed. Does anyone know where > >>> this is coming from and how I can turn it off. > >> > >> To clarify: This file, PTDefault.html is a ptviewer optional parameter > >> file which apparently contains information about x and y of original > >> view of initial position of the pan. Users won't notice it (or it's > >> lack), but it does show up in the web server logs as a request for a > >> missing file. > >> As an interim, I put a blank version of the file on my web server. I'll > >> see if the error messages cease. > >> > >> -- > >> Robert D Feinman, Ph. D. > >> Database Doctor > >> Photographer: http://robertdfeinman.com Glenn Barry Photography 2/13 Gerroa Avenue Bayview N.S.W. 2104 Australia Ph (612) 9997 3431 Mobile 0415 279 366 E-Mail: mailto:glenn@acay.com.au Web: http://www.acay.com.au/~glenn
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 From: "George S. Pearl" alps007@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Camera comparison To: tstabler tstabler@iun.edu> Hello Again Troops! I have been emailed by a couple of people already wanting to know what the name etc. of the camera that I thought was better for the money was called. I think I mentioned the name in my post as the Lookaround. The Lookaround camera is a $500 (for IAPP members) hand made beautifully finished wooden panorama camera made by one of our long time IAPP members Alan Zinn. I think it is a much better deal for the money than the Russian camera. You get real panoramic coverage of 360 degrees plus, and it is really cool to use. I do not have any "stock" in Alan's camera production one way or the other, but I just think it is a better deal for someone who wants to really make panoramas. See: www.geocities.com/soho/gallery/8874/ I hope this helps, George S. Pearl, QPP, FEPIC, BCEP, BCQDE % ALPS - Evidence & Photo and Atlanta Panorama 2139 Liddell Drive, NE Atlanta, Georgia 30324-4132 web sites: "http://www.alpslabs.com" "http://wwwatlantapanorama.com" ----- Original Message ----- From: "tstabler" tstabler@iun.edu> To: alps007@mindspring.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 11:52 AM Subject: Camera comparison > I read your posting about camera comparisons. I have to admit that I was > thinking of that Russian camera, mainly due to cost. But I also know myself > well enough to realize I would never be happy with it. Right now, I am using > a Nikon N90s as my main camera and two Olympus OM-1's for stereo. > > I am interested in exactly what was the other camera you were talking > about???? > > I figure the more I know, the better. > > Thanks. > > Tim Stabler > > Timothy A. Stabler, Ph.D. > Department of Biology > Indiana University Northwest > Gary, IN 46408
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 From: Thinh Le thinh@thinh.com> Subject: Using Adobe InDesign to make long prints... To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Here's an example of a procedure for creating an Adobe InDesign document which contains multiple-continuous-pages that can be used to print long images. In the steps below, I will create a spread that contains 3 pages each is 4" (a little short but will illustrate the point). For longer images, simply create more pages and larger page size. I can also email the InDesign document created by the steps below to those who might be interested. 1. Create a new document: in the new document dialog, specify: 1 page, facing pages checked, page size: custom, width 4 height 4 all margins and gutter 0, 1 column. 2. On the Pages pallete, create a new master: specify the number of pages: 3 3. Insert a new page spread with the new multi-page master by grabbing the new master in the Pages pallette and dragging it to the pane below 4. Now, drag the 1st page that was created automatically into the trash to delete it 5. Now, you have a new continuous multi-page document 6. Under the File menu, select Place... to place your image into the document 7. You need to enable color management by going under Edit -> Color Settings -> Application Color Settings and Document Color Settings. In the Application Color Settings dialog, in the System Profiles area, make sure you select your printer for the Composite field. In the Document Color Settings dialog, check the Enable Color Management box. Please read the user guide for more info. (You don't have to do this step if you don't want to use profiles) 8. Now go to Print... to bring up the Print dialog box 9. Select your printer and then click on Properties to open up the printer's properties dialog 10. Under the Main tab, select the right paper settings 11. Under the Paper tab, specify: (a) "Roll Paper" as Paper Source (b) Define a new user defined paper size to match your document size, in this example 4" by 4" - and then select the new size (c) Set Orientation to Landscape (d) Set Roll Paper Option to "Banner" All of the steps above are important and need to be done correctly 12. Click OK to close Properties dialog 13. Click on OK to print Happy printing... TL
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 From: Jook Leung jook360@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Is there any precut 17x44 Panoramic inkjet paper out there? To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Try http://www.redriverpaper.com They have 13x38 and 24x36 inch sheets, 17"x100foot rolls and you can request custom sizes. I like the Premium Matte papers. The Denali Matte is cheaper but holds less detail. >I have an Epson 3000 which can print 17x44 panoramics. I am looking for a >supplier of already cut sheets of semi-gloss and/or matt waterproof paper, >photo paper quality or heavier. > >Companies like Epson and Konica have 44inch wide rolls, that i could cut >down or have a printer cut into individual 17x44 sheets, but does anyone >know where I can buy this size already cut??? > >I twice used the 17inch paper roll Epson sells, but it's very hard to load >and cut; too much waste, and the paper is just too flimsy for my taste. > >If you know of someone who sells 17 inch (or 16 1/2) wide rolls, that >would be super, because those I can cut down into individual sheets quite >easily myself. Haven't found such rolls either; again, only Epson. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . JOOK LEUNG 360VR STUDIO http://360vr.com
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 From: Mike Sinclair sinclair@microsoft.com> Subject: Electronic PanCam To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Anybody have any experience with this camera? (Apologies of it's already been discussed) http://www.zoomage.ca/indexTpgi.htm ? (Not a very informative website but intereting) -Mike-
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 From: Alan Kafton skinnypix@kafton.com> Subject: RE: Is there any precut 17x44 Panoramic inkjet paper out there? To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au On Thu, 10 January 2002, JCR wrote: > Does anyone have an opinion or is there a forum thread somewhere covering > this topic? Try the Epson Injet list. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/epson-inkjet/ --Alan
From: brianc1959@aol.com (brian) Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.35mm Subject: Large format quality with small format equipment Date: 22 Nov 2001 I'll no doubt be crucified by the skeptics that live here, but I thought that some of you might be interested. I do lots of wide-angle/ultra-high resolution architectural photography using small format equipment. I'll admit up front that I use a digital SLR camera, but the technique can be applied equally well to scanned film, so I thought this was an appropriate place to post this. I shoot multi-row panoramas that I stitch together with Panorama Tools ( http://www.fh-furtwangen.de/~dersch/ , http://www.ptgui.com/ ). The basic resolution of my camera is 5.9MP (ressed up from 5.3MP), and I typically shoot anywhere from 4 all the way up to 40 separate images for each mosaic. This would imply a net resolution of 23.6 up to 236MP, but in practice this is reduced by a factor of about two due to the overlap that is required to stitch the images together perfectly. Those of you who have seen crudely pieced-together mosaics may doubt that a truly seamless image can result from this, but the average stitching error I get is on the order of 0.3 pixels, which is impossible to spot in the final image. The main drawback of the technique is that it takes time to shoot all the separate images, and some of the subject matter can move around during this time. In citiscapes I often get "twins" inadvertently in this way. However, for truly stationary subjects and many types of landscapes, the results can be absolutely stunning. How does it compare to large format? Consider scanning 4x5 film at 1000dpi. This gives you 20MP. Many of my images are far better than this. I often get asked why it is not better to just use a large-format camera to begin with. My answer to this is that I normally carry my digital camera with me. Although it is best to shoot mosaics with the camera mounted on a tripod using a special panorama head ( see http://www.kaidan.com/ ), it is also possible to shoot them hand-held, especially if the subject is fairly distant from the camera. If you are casually walking around with your 35mm camera and see something you want done at super-high resolution, you can use the mosaic technique to accomplish it. For further reading you can check out my tutorial ("ultra high resolution digital mosaics") at: http://www.outbackphoto.com/workshop/workshop.html . For some excellent examples see http://cgibin.rcn.com/maxlyons/ . Brian
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 From: Douglas Segal dsegal@panoramicimages.com> Subject: Re: Scanning 6x17 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Hi Adri, Recently a friend of mine reviewed his experience with the Epson 1680, a few choice quotes below: about scanners for various pan formats. We recently added an Epson 1680 to our equipment list and it was recently used to scan about 115 6x17 pans for review . It appears to be an excellent scanner and has been working well for us. It can take three mounted full-size pans at a time, and probably could handlefive unmounted ones, so the throughput rate should be fairly fast in production mode. The scanner is very easy to use and has higher Dmax (3.6) than our earlier model 1600, which we have been using for about six months. Another impressive fact is that the 1680 can scan at 48 bit color depth. note : I have heard that Epson makes a similar slightly more expensive model with an even larger scanning bed. We are using the 1680 to scan large numbers of medium and large format originals and duplicates for our future web site. I am sure you know the specs on this scanner, which offers true optical resolution of 1600 dpi -- far more than required for the web, especially from medium and large formats. In fact I would not be too much afraid to do high-res scans for delivery to clients on the 1680 should our Imacon break down. ( although the Epson would take much longer to do hi-res ) I think the 1680 scans would be quite satisfactory for most uses. The total scanning area is actually bigger than 8x10 (8.5x11.7 inches, to be precise), and it can handle multiple pictures per pass, so it can be loaded up with a lot of images. It would handle all but the very longest Hulcher or 70mm pans (up to nearly a foot long) and should also do a suitable job with the 35mm pan formats, although you would not get huge files from these. (But not to worry, since Genuine Fractals can bump up those files to 500 megs if you really want them that big, and from what I have heard no one will be able to tell the difference! -- Doug Segal dsegal@panoramicimages.com new keyword searchable panoramic web site at panoramicimages.com Panoramic Images, Chicago "world's greatest collection of wide format stock photos" tel. 312 236-8545 fax 312 704-4077 > From: adri de groot adrijanus@juno.com> > Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 > To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au > Subject: Scanning 6x17 > > Does anyone have any experience with the following scanners: > > Epson Expression 1680 Pro
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 From: Richard Schneider richard.schneider@nara.gov> Subject: Widelux: The Rise and Fall (?) To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Dear List-serve Members, I would like to issue a call to all potential contributors for an article to be published in IAPP's official publication, Panorama Magazine. I am looking to featuring this in the December issue. The article would be centered on the Widelux, its rise and more recently its fall. I am not 100% sure whether the company is still in existence, but even if it were it is only a shadow of its former self. I have been in touch with Tetsu (?) of Nippon Photo Clinic in New York and his assessment - to my ears - appears grim. Yet for many years, the Widelux was the camera of choice for panoramic photographers who did not want to lug around a Cirkut Camera, for instance. Its portability helped give rise to new uses of the panoramic image, including aerial and vertical shooting. It certainly broke new ground and enabled a whole generation of photographers to become acquainted with panoramic imaging, later graduating perhaps, to an Alpa, Cyclopan or Roundshot. The Widelux was and is an important chapter in the history of panoramic photography. Its history should be documented before the company indeed goes under. All submissions will be considered, whether or not you are currently an IAPP member. To find out more about submission guidelines to Panorama, please visit the IAPP web site at http://www.panphoto.com/panorama.html Thanks, Richard Schneider Panorama Editor
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 From: Dale Dickerson vze2g2z8@verizon.net> To: rollei@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us Subject: [Rollei] Re: OT Panflex Check out this website: http://www.phepan.com/ A 120 film Widelux/Noblex type camera, that can be used to run 35mm through it. Hmmm............ interesting. The factory is the same that makes the Phoenix lens series for 35mm SLRs.
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 From: postmaster postmaster postmaster@kafton.com> Subject: Re: A new panoramic camera from China; American involvement To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au One of the new Panflex's sold on EBAY (new) for $850 a week ago. The dealer selling it was Adorama, although I don't see the camera on their web site. Check out the EBAY info at: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item;=1265112748 It looks like there is a 35mm adaptor....look at the photos in the manual. There is a battery, but it's a small light-meter size button, so I'm sure it's a spring-loaded swing mechanism. Probably junk! --Alan Kafton
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 From: ralph fuerbringer rof@mac.com> Subject: Re: Widelux: The Rise and Fall (?) To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au While an article on the Widelux would not be out of place, to claim it broke new ground is ridiculous. the 120 Panon and Panox in the fifties were true groundbreakeers. They were technologically superior and a more versatile tool. I had a Panox. In addition to convential panoramic photography the Panox with an exposure of 2 seconds allowed a subject to be sharp at the beginning and end with marvelous streaks from moving in sync with the lens. An example would be entering a bank and then going to the tellers window. quality wise the camera was superb.While the 35 is ok, the 2 1/4 Widelux in particular was and is a mess. The Panoptic while mechnanically not on a par with the Panon/Panox sported a 140 degree finder that beats the pants off anything before or since in that respect .it could also be hacked to get a top optic. so put the Widelux in its place: a popular,fair performer that produced some great pictures almost in spite of itself. It was no pioneer and leacked the craftsmanship that distiquished the Panon/Panox. mention of these would not be out-of-place in an article devoted to a lesser but more prolific follower embraced by photographers who had no choice. so what happened to Panon/ Panox and Panofic? Panorama didnt have the popularity it has today. there just was't that much demand for speciality products whose precison came at a relatively high price. Widelux simply downgraded the quality to a level that was acceptable and profitable,35mm for the most part .Rumored dead six times previously I would like to know how it lasted decades in the quirky specialty market for panorama cameras.i make a linear one myself, the vistashift-612 with 35 to 55 apo-grandagons. http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/vista612.html so what happened to my Panox? Cinerama consisted of three normal angle movies shot and projected at the same time. they needed a still camera that give that 1440 degree effect. they made me an offer i couldnt refuse. anyway at heart i'm just plain linear. I like buildings. I never have the time to arrange them in a semicircle so they come out right in the picture. Ralph > From: Richard Schneider richard.schneider@nara.gov> > Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 > To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au > Cc: senator@gci.net > Subject: Widelux: The Rise and Fall (?) > > Dear List-serve Members, > > I would like to issue a call to all potential contributors for an article to > be published in IAPP's official publication, Panorama Magazine. I am looking > to featuring this in the December issue. > > The article would be centered on the Widelux, its rise and more recently its > fall. > > I am not 100% sure whether the company is still in existence, but even if it > were it is only a shadow of its former self. I have been in touch with Tetsu > (?) of Nippon Photo Clinic in New York and his assessment - to my ears - > appears grim. > > Yet for many years, the Widelux was the camera of choice for panoramic > photographers who did not want to lug around a Cirkut Camera, for instance. > Its portability helped give rise to new uses of the panoramic image, including > aerial and vertical shooting. It certainly broke new ground and enabled a > whole generation of photographers to become acquainted with panoramic imaging, > later graduating perhaps, to an Alpa, Cyclopan or Roundshot. > > The Widelux was and is an important chapter in the history of panoramic > photography. Its history should be documented before the company indeed goes > under. > > All submissions will be considered, whether or not you are currently an IAPP > member. To find out more about submission guidelines to Panorama, please visit > the IAPP web site at > http://www.panphoto.com/panorama.html > > Thanks, > > Richard Schneider > Panorama Editor >
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 From: "George S. Pearl" alps007@mindspring.com> Subject: My story about Widelux... To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Hey Alan, Who makes this Panflex camera? Same people who have brought us the amazing Pearl River Camera and the Drop-0-Flex no doubt? It sort of looks like my old Panon Panox 120mm camera, and it has like shutter speeds and lens. The shutter was spring driven through some gearing in the old Panox. You would simply pull the lens around with your hand to cock the shutter. In the full open position the lens would click and stay full open. When you pressed the shutter release the lens would open and the lens barrel would release to allow it to rotate all around to the closed position. On the 250th speed the lens would wiz around so fast and hit up against the stop so hard that I was worried it might hurt itself, so on my camera I altered the brake design with installation of a hunk of a rubber flip-flop for the lens barrel to bang into. I have sold the old Panox a couple years ago, and somewhere out there is the only operating "flip-flop" camera system! Years ago in the `80's I used to import the Widelux from the Panon Camera Company. My cost back then was about $350.00 per unit for the F-8 including the shipping etc. They were a very small company which had all the parts made by different people all over the place, and then they would assemble the cameras and ship them out from their location. I never had enough money to do the proper advertising for this camera because there were no funds from Japan for such. Sho Kubota owner of Panon once told me when I asked for advertising money; "AMERICA...Big Country!....NO CAN DO!". So that was it with my selling the camera. At the time, for what ever reason, Kornelius was also importing and selling the cameras. The big problem was that there was no price control on the cameras and he was just giving them away for just about what we were paying for them. Go figure? I don't get it, but it wreaked the market for any dealer to be able to promote and service the cameras. He certainly had the right to do what he did, and he might have made a few bucks, but the whole price structure for the camera went from what it was selling for in New York $1,400ish to $385ish or some such on the West coast. Without the proper advertising on the camera, it is my belief that the cameras started to decline. Also, about that time there were other panorama cameras appearing on the market. Without funding for promotion and r & d, the camera went down. The Panox 140 degree 120mm camera was a great camera, and the images were very sharp. I still do not understand why Panon just didn't update that camera by adding an optical viewfinder and calling it a day. They already HAD the tooling for it, and the camera was a workhorse. Panon took years and years to again turn out a 120mm 140 degree camera, but by then, there were many others on the market to compete with such as the Noblex which in my way of thinking is far superior in every way. I sold the Widelux cameras, but presently do not even own one myself. I sold them all and bailed out. That's my story, and I am sticking with it! My best, George Pearl, QPP Atlanta Panorama ----- Original Message ----- From: "postmaster postmaster" postmaster@kafton.com> To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 Subject: Re: A new panoramic camera from China; American involvement > One of the new Panflex's sold on EBAY (new) for $850 a week ago. The dealer selling it was Adorama, although I don't see the camera on their web site. Check out the EBAY info at: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item;=1265112748 > > It looks like there is a 35mm adaptor....look at the photos in the manual. There is a battery, but it's a small light-meter size button, so I'm sure it's a spring-loaded swing mechanism. > > Probably junk! > > --Alan Kafton
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 From: scantech scantech.pano@wanadoo.fr> Subject: Re: Scanning 6x17 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au You will find on this web page a description of the way I scan 120 format panoramic films : http://perso.wanadoo.fr/panorama/voyageur/scanning.html As this page has been translated from French to English, I am sure there is a lot of mistakes , so it will be kind of you to indicate to me where are this mistakes. I have forgotten to say that it is better to heat the scanner before using it. Results are much more homogenous wich is very important for this kind of work. Thanks for your comments G. Le Lostec
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 From: Bruce Anderson bruce@livepicture.co.jp> Subject: Re: Virtual Walk through To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au If you use Reality Studio you can link panorama's together with a movie in the middle of them, so click on a hotspot, then the movie plays, and after finishing changes to the next pano. So you take a movie of zooming (or walking) from the location of the first pano to the location of the second. Just using the Nikon 60 second movie feature is fine. This will only work offline as the timing is important, and the MGI plugin only supports avi or quicktime movies which can be heavy..... (online you may get the pano changing before the movie finishes as there is no timeline). Bruce > >-----Message d'origine----- > >De : future.com@vsnl.com future.com@vsnl.com> > >To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au> > >Date : jeudi 30 aout 2001 20:21 > >Objet : Virtual Walt through > > > > > >Hi, > > > >We want to design a virtual walk through of a showroom. Normal panoramic > >images give an idea about 360 degree view. > > > >Suppose if we want to enter a passage through a door and want to give a > >straigt moving view, then how can we achieve this. > > > >Just like a CD multimedia presentation we want a walk through presentation > >in such a way so that it can be implemented on the web. Can anybody help by > >suggesting the softwares that can be utilised ? > > > > > >Thanks S Agrawal
From: "Brian Swale" bj@caverock.net.nz> To: Robert Monaghan rmonagha@post.cis.smu.edu> Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 Subject: 6 x 17 Hello Robert If you ever wondered what could be done with 6 x 17, take a look at these two websites which are almost identical. I have known Andris for nearly 40 years, from when he was a very junior Forest Service field officer with a passion for photography. Now he is quite well-off, and has, for example, a Crossfield drum scanner to scan his transparencies. I think they cost about $US 108,700 now. Each. More than a Nikon Coolscan. http://www.nzlandscapes.co.nz/ http://www.andrisapse.com/ He produces the most beautiful calendars and desk appointment books using his shots. Amongst other things.. I think I am going soft in the head. I have located a Linhof Schneider Super Angulon 5,6/47mm with Copal 1 Shutter and recessed Lens board 45 on a European site for $US 483, and although I'm not sure exactly what I might use it for right now, I'm tempted to stretch out, with the manufature of a Clabo-style walnut wooden camera in mind. Not necesarily using walnut - though I can get local european walnut (Juglans regia) here if I try. I don't know if that's a good price, but it seems so to me. Brian ---------------------------------------------------------- Brian Swale e-mail bj@caverock.net.nz 140 Panorama Road URL = http://www.caverock.net.nz/~bj/ Christchurch 8008 New Zealand tel. +64 3 326-7447
To: rollei@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 Subject: [Rollei] OT = Shutterbug's review of Panflex 120 Panoramic Camera From: Evan J Dong evanjoe685@juno.com> For the list members who remember the earlier posting on this list regarding the Panflex, we now have an official review. In the newest issue of Shutterbug, Bob Shell reviews the Chinese made 120 format Panoramic camera. For those who hasn't yet seen nor handle this camera, this review will be the closest thing. I want to thank Bob for being the gentleman that he is, as promised me that the translation credit will be given to whomever helps with it. My wife did the translation for Bob and was very happy to see her name in a trade publication. We both thank you for your word of honor. For the record, I had handle this camera back in early June at Ken Hansen. If you all get the chance, try to see and handle this camera. Evan Dong
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 From: Austin Lindsey alindsey@cableone.net> Subject: Re: Long panoramas To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au One should check out this site http://www.photoprojects.net/ I have always admired Gene's experiments and he has a number of suggestions on how to do orthographic photos. Austin Lindsey adri de groot wrote: > > Thanks for the replies so far, > > Actually, what I have in mind is to do long stitched panoramas shot > indeed at a somewhat closer range, e.g. a street with interesting > buildings, shops, etc., showing lots of fine detail. It is not even > necessary to show the buildings from top to bottom, just the bottom half > of a building might be enough (depending on the artistic overall appeal > of course). > > My question is more about equipment. Can I do this with SWC? Or shall I > move to a medium format with a much longer lens, such as a 80mm or 120mm? > > I am interested to know how people did this, in terms of lens choice. > > Of course, I have to experiment with this approach by myself. >
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 From: Mike Sinclair sinclair@microsoft.com> Subject: RE: Long panoramas To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Brian Jones and I put together an electronic scene stitcher a while ago to automatically stitch (most) any long and random-orientation path you could traverse. It consisted of a high resolution video camera, rotated 90 degrees (scan lines were vertical) and looking at right angles to the vehicle's travel. Two .050" resolution encoder wheels spaced at 64" were fixed to the rear of the vehicle and were input the the camera's digital audio tracks. These generated the instantaneous path position and yaw which Brian used to process the video to correct for vehicle motion. See http://www.imtc.gatech.edu/html/othographic_mapper.html for a more detailed description and Brian's 1977 Siggraph presentation. -Mike- > -----Original Message----- > From: Austin Lindsey [mailto:alindsey@cableone.net] > Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 > To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au > Subject: Re: Long panoramas > > > One should check out this site http://www.photoprojects.net/ > > I have always admired Gene's experiments and he has a number > of suggestions on how to do orthographic photos. > > Austin Lindsey > > adri de groot wrote: > > > > Thanks for the replies so far, > > > > Actually, what I have in mind is to do long stitched panoramas shot > > indeed at a somewhat closer range, e.g. a street with interesting > > buildings, shops, etc., showing lots of fine detail. It is not even > > necessary to show the buildings from top to bottom, just the bottom > > half of a building might be enough (depending on the > artistic overall > > appeal of course). > > > > My question is more about equipment. Can I do this with > SWC? Or shall > > I move to a medium format with a much longer lens, such as > a 80mm or > > 120mm? > > > > I am interested to know how people did this, in terms of > lens choice. > > > > Of course, I have to experiment with this approach by myself.
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 From: Bill Glickman bglick@pclv.com> Subject: Re: This Panorama List To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Steve > > I am fascinated by the camera that you show on the link.... What > > was the benefit of re inventing the wheel? > > Isn't this a crude version of the Seitz 220 Roundshot? > > I'll try not to take that as an insult. My camera has less banding than > any roundshot I tried at the time of building I see.... I shoud have first asked when you built this baby! There was no insult intended for sure, I truly admire the engineering expertise that went into this! When I said "a crude version", what I was referring to was all the sophistication in programing available on the roundshot...of course they designed it with the intent of amotrizing the R&D; cost over hundreds of units. While on the subject of brilliant camera designs, have you ever seen the Dr. Gilde camera? A 6x17, MF and MF stereo camera all in one! Absolutely brilliant, except for the pricing.. http://www.gilde-kamera.de/ Bill
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 From: Clayton Tume tume@world-net.co.nz> Subject: Re: giant monopods To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Hi Michel I had Gildas design a new Scantech for me so that it could be used on a monopod. He balanced the design by building the power pack into the body and redesigning the base layout, also a new motor to drive the extra weight. You can see it here http://perso.wanadoo.fr/panorama/voyageur/USE50_03.html I'm very pleased with the way it handles, it's a lightweight camera that allows me to do things I couldn't do with my other cameras. Originally I looked at buying the Roundshot 65/70 or Alpa Rotocamera but they were too big and heavy for my use, I don't think you'd want to use one on a monopod. I wanted 120 film and probably the only other cameras worth looking at (lightweight 120) are the Hulcherama or Rotational Specialities cameras, neither of which I've seen in the flesh. Prints from the Scantech are as good as I've seen from a Roundshot, you can see some on my website www.bigshotz.co.nz under new panoramas on the homepage. I've shot transparency on it and they're pretty good too! Clayton > Hi all ! > > About MONOPOD, just be sure that your rotating camera (Scantech or > Larscan) is well balanced as well as for vertical use, to avoid > balancing of the camera during rotation. > > I have also put a level to be sure the monopod is vertical. > > Michel DUSARIEZ > > Have a look at http://www.pano360.org/ > -- > http://www.pano360.org/ > Michel DUSARIEZ > UNLIMITED FIELDS RESEARCH PANOPTIC IMAGING asbl > KITE AERIAL PHOTOGRAPHY WORLDWIDE ASSOCIATION - FOUNDATION > 14, Avenue Capitaine PIRET > B-1150 BRUXELLES - BELGIUM > Fax 32 2 512 68 29 >
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 From: "M. Denis Hill" denis@area360.com> Subject: RE: Roundshot To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au For a lot less money than the factory shift option, Mamiya 645 and other medium format lenses can be used on the Super 220 VR (and other 35mm mount cameras that are relatively flat above and below the lens mount) with rise and fall using Zoerk (http://www.zoerk.com/) adapters. I was very happy with the combination of this shift capability with a Mamiya 110mm lens on a Super 220. Moving the horizon makes all the difference. Denis -----Original Message----- From: gene360@erols.com [mailto:gene360@erols.com] Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 5:07 AM To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Roundshot Mike, Im in Va Beach VA and have had a VR220 for a while & wasnt aware of a 28/220 version. What Ive done before Sietz had an adapter for Mamiya lenses,I had a local company (Hulcher in Hampton) make me one because i had 645 lenses and want the option to "shift" the image. All has been working well and have aslo been doing aerials with the same. Feel free to corespond or ask questions.!!!!!!!!!!!!! Gene Woolridge Mike Bell wrote: > I recently purchased a second hand Roundshot 35/35s, the one with the > additional slow speeds. I would be interested to correspond with > anyone who owns one of these cameras. When I bought my camera it was > without the viewfinder loupe. Whilst I have managed with an adapted > Agfa loupe I would like, if possible, to purchase one if anyone > should happen to have a spare. Seitz no longer have any. > > I have just ordered the new Roundshot 28/220 and would also like to > make contact with anyone who has already taken or will soon be taking > delivery of this camera. > > Regards > Mike > -- > Mike Bell > ingham-bell.vr.ltd > http://www.scotlandspages.net
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 From: "M. Denis Hill" denis@area360.com> Subject: RE: Roundshot To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Zoerk makes a variety of adapters. The one I used on a 220 VR was shift only, adapting Mamiya 645 lenses to the Nikon mount of my RoundShot. Because the film plane-to-lens-mount distance of a Nikon is less than that of the Mamiya, there is room (just) for the intervening adapter while keeping the infinity focus capability. Other Zoerk adapters shift and tilt, but this moves the lens further from the body, so infinity focus is no longer possible. Those are really designed for macro work, where shallow depth-of-field at any aperture makes the availability of Scheimflug effect very useful. As I recall, some of these adapters are designed to use enlarging lenses. Denis -----Original Message----- From: Bill Glickman [mailto:bglick@pclv.com] Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Roundshot Dennis > Tilt is use of the Scheimflug effect; altering the plane of focus by moving > it out of parallel with the film plane. Wedge makes a camera look up or > down, but does not alter the relationship between the film plane and the > plane of focus. Tilt and wedge are not synonymous. Well said, totally agreed... has anyone successfully implemented True Lens tilt on a roundshout 220VR with the use of a tilt/shift adapter by the link that was provided, I believe it was called Zook? I am using the 220VR with the Mamiya 645 lenses with Seitz Camera tilt / lens shift options. To me this, this would be a great enhancement as changing the plane of sharp focus will overcome one of the inherent weakness of focussing a rotational camera. Someone mentioned the inability to achieve infinity focus due to the extra spacing the adapter provided. I am confused by this... if you refocus the lens to a closer distance, I would assume infinity would come into focus on the gg? Am I missing something here? Bill
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 From: "M. Denis Hill" denis@area360.com> Subject: RE: 220vr + shift + mamiya-lens = advantages? To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au I think that the shortest focal length Mamiya 645 lens is 35mm, so the vertical coverage will be considerably less than that of the Sigma. My experience was with Mamiya 110mm and 300mm lenses with the shift adapter, a very different animal from very short focal lengths. I also used the PC-Nikkor 35mm, Nikkor 18mm, and other Nikkor lenses when appropriate to the task. It seems to me that the point of using rise/fall, a.k.a., shift, is to crop out portions of the scene, just the opposite of the purpose of using very short lenses to include as much as possible. As a side note, the Nikkor 18mm covers 100 degrees on a Nikon, with an image circle of about 43mm on a RoundShot. I think that makes it about 120 vertical degrees on the RoundShot. Denis -----Original Message----- From: lists [mailto:lists@we-st.de] Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: 220vr + shift + mamiya-lens = advantages? after having got some things straight, let me ask you, what advantages do i get from using a 220vr with mamiya- lenses? shifting -> big advantage better image-quality by better leneses -> big advantage but: is there any mamiya-lens that gives me a bigger vertical field of view than the sigma 14 mm? michael. http://www.we-st.de check out our triplets at: http://www.drei-wichtel.de
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 From: "M. Denis Hill" denis@area360.com> Subject: RE: Shift for Scheimpflug? Yes or No? To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au George, The Zoerk adapter I used had rise and fall. It had a Nikon mount on the camera side and Mamiya 645 mount on the lens side. It did not have tilt. As far as I know, the only Zoerk adapters that offer tilt eliminate infinity focus due to the extra distance they introduce between the lens mounts (camera side/lens side). As I mentioned earlier, they are basically for macro work only. I've never used a wedge, but it seems that wedge and lens tilt would complement each other in your application. Logically, that the combination would reduce the amount of lens tilt required because the plane of focus (along with the film plane) is already tilted by the wedge. Bill's comments got me thinking about an interesting project: building a rotational camera based on a Rollei SL66. It has bellows focusing with tilt. If I were going to undertake this, I'd probably stick with the 80mm lens and calibrate the whole thing to a particular focus distance in the way the 28/220 and Voyageur are done. Of course, the SL66 has a fixed film magazine, so making it into a rotational camera would not be a trivial undertaking. Denis -----Original Message----- From: George S. Pearl [mailto:alps007@mindspring.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 8:31 AM To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Shift for Scheimpflug? Yes or No? Hello Dennis, It sure looks like the Zoerk adapter will allow a lens to look up or down to me. Is it not doing that? That isn't a shift, but a rotation of the lens or tilt being done. If the lens can tilt a small amount with a Zoerk adapter and the wedge can make the camera to look down, won't that allow the Scheimpflug Principle to work to achieve greater depth of field? Hell, I don't even know if such a Zoerk Adapter can be used on a 220 VR....can it? My best, George S. Pearl, QPP, FEPIC, BCEP, BCQDE "http://www.alpslabs.com" "http://wwwatlantapanorama.com"
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 From: ralph fuerbringer rof@mac.com> Subject: Re: input needed for study To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au why bother with a bunch of formats when roll film is so cheap? shoot 220 with the longest format you have, crop later rather than fooling around with red windowa and wasting shooting time. even the varioformat sinar 612 roll holder with an autostop averages twenty times the breakdowns as the 612 horseman. i've sold at least 50 612 horseman 612. no breakdowns reported. > From: Bill Glickman bglick@pclv.com> > Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 > To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au > Subject: Re: input needed for study > > >> the gilde has more red windows than a texas whorehouse. who wants to pay >> 5 to 10 ten grand to peek into those things today? a rollfilm camera today >> must have an automatic stop period. ralph > > Agreed, what a pain, but that is the price you pay for multi images on > one roll...
From: Nathan Myhrvold nathanm@intven.com> To: "'panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au'" panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au>, "'rof@mac.com'" rof@mac.com>, "'rmonagha@post.cis.smu.edu'" rmonagha@post.cis.smu.edu> Subject: RE: 6x17cm - or wider smaller pan format? Re: input needed for study Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 I have a question and comment. There is a wide angle large format lense for 6 x 17 format - the 72 mm Schneider Super Angulon XL. I use it on a V-pan camera. Obviously, a monorail style view camera like V-pan is more cumbersome than the Fuji GX617, Gilde or others. However, although slower to set up, you do get movements, which is often very useful. Since you can't make an SLR this size if you want to actually see what you get you need to look at a groundglass anyway. Also, the wider the lens, the more I find a need for view camera movements. However, the image circle does get you eventually on super wides. I have a Cambi-Wide with 47mm SA-XL. It has some (limited) shift. I use it 4x5 and crop, or with a 6x12 roll film back. How is this different than the Vista 612 ? For quick work, it is hard to beat the convienence of X-pan - albeit with a smaller negative. Nathan -----Original Message----- From: Robert Monaghan [mailto:rmonagha@post.cis.smu.edu] Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: 6x17cm - or wider smaller pan format? Re: input needed for study well, I used to think that my dream camera would be a 6x17cm or even 6x24cm, then I made the mistake of pricing and hefting examples of 'em ;-) I think the question is complicated by improvements in films, which are enabling larger degrees of enlargement, and improvements in 6x9cm MF lenses, which are providing wider lenses with shifting movements but only with enough coverage for 6x9cm or maybe 6x12cm? A fuji G617 with 105mm lens is covering circa a 24mm lens on 35mm SLR horiz. angle of view IIRC? Even if you crop a typical 47mm XL SA 56x90+mm image to the same 2.83:1 ratio, you will still have over 20% more in the image in terms of degrees of coverage? (and so can crop a "shifted image equivalent" bigger than 15 degrees, again offsetting the shifting benefits). personally, I think the 6x12cm models are more interesting, esp. with the newer wider lenses, unless you are doing seriously huge enlargements beyond 12 or 16X? The lack of really wide lenses in 6x17cm coverage with movements, coupled with ability to do large enlargements from 6x12cm or less, makes wide angle panoramic 6x17cm less interesting to me now than in the past. So I would recommend being cautious about projecting new markets and 6x17cm models, esp. with the overall medium format and LF market dropping 50% as it has in the USA in the last year per rpm-med fmt HTH bobm
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 From: Steven Morton steven.morton@sci.monash.edu.au> Subject: Build your own digital camera To: panorama-L panorama-L@sci.monash.edu.au> Hi All, This may be of interest (mentioned on Helmut's Imaging list) http://www.sentex.net/~mwandel/tech/scanner.html Mike Sinclair should like this one... Cya Steve
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 From: Richard Cooper cooperin@frontiernet.net> Subject: Re: Stitch programs? To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au No--- but go to MGI.com and they have a $49 stitcher called Photovista. There is a free download demo to try the software. We use it all the time and we find it works better than most competitors. Richard Cooper V 585-256-0971 F 585-244-6492 ----- Original Message ----- From: "jaugusta" jaugusta@adelphia.net> To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 Subject: Stitch programs? > Does anyone know of a couple of good online (free) PC stitching programs for > download? > > best wishes, > J. Augusta
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 From: JCR jcr@jcr-cameras.com> Subject: RE: Stitch programs? To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Hi, Pixmaker Lite Version 1.0.6 is free and simple to use and does a good job. It has useful pre-sets for 15mm to 50mm lenses and also for Nikon 900 series digital cameras. You can download it from http://pixaround.com Good Luck, John -----Original Message----- From: jaugusta [mailto:jaugusta@adelphia.net] Sent: 13 December 2001 12:48 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Stitch programs? Does anyone know of a couple of good online (free) PC stitching programs for download? best wishes, J. Augusta
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 From: lists lists@we-st.de> Subject: javascript to prevent stealing photos ... To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au folks, you might get one over there: http://javascript.internet.com/page-details/no-right-click.html but as it tells you on the page: it's not fool-proof. one always can steal your content by: -> taking a screenshot -> by browsing the document-source for the location -> by "fishing" in the browser's cache -> by downloading your page with adobe golive -> by downloading your page with acrobat maybe the best way is to use macromedia flash for site-building. with this software you can -> do great little animations, yeah, but: -> lock you images into the swf-file (to avoid reimport) -> take control over the users keyboard (to avoid screenshots) -> even ensure, your photos are played back only from a certain url michael Michael Stoll, Diplom-Designer (FH), AGD, SND e-mail mstoll@we-st.de WWW http://www.we-st.de check out our triplets at: http://www.drei-wichtel.de
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 From: Bruce Anderson BruceA@mgisoft.com> Subject: Re: javascript to prevent stealing photos ... To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au We have been using a software tool called, "aquaporta". It places an invisible message in an image, by very slightly altering colour in pixels in the image. When a decoder is used later, the message can be extraced. If someone steals an image that has been encoded, they can add noise, rotate it, slice it up even and the message still remains. IT's amazing technology. Still the main problem is policing it all. Bruce Frank van der Pol wrote: > Bob Hardin wrote: > > > > No! If it displays on your screen some hacker has a way to save it. > > And if it's "protected" using Javascript, you switch off Javascript > in your browser. And if you don't know how, you pick the images from > the cache of your browser. > And if the image is sliced or encrypted or serverside protected, you > make a screen dump. And if the image is more than a screen wide, you > use two screendumps. And if it's displayed using a plugin to disable > your screendump button, nobody will look at the images or they will > make a screendump via a network or some other solution. > > > These kinds of things are the challenges hackers love. > > And it doesn't even take a hacker. It probably takes less than 3 secs > to get around Richard Cooper's Javascript. > > > If it is on the net and not encrypted then it is public. > > Encrypt a flat image and numerous people will be able to > display it on their site or use it within seconds via a screendump. > > Protecting images on the web is only possible using restricted access > for a selected number of people you can absolutely trust. > But 'possible' does not always mean 'sensible'. > > There are just a few things you have to accept in order to get a > good night sleep when it comes to copyright and the web: > > -Accept that images are being used by others without paying. > -Send them an e-mail if you see your image elsewhere. If they do > not respond, send them an invoice. If they won't pay, sew them. > -Keep in mind that images are only stolen if people want to or can > use them, which more or less means: Don't overestimate the quality > or useability of your work. There is a chance there are a zillion > images on the web people will probably like better. > > And if you still want to protect your images, the best solution is > to use a visible watermark in the center of the image that enables > people to enjoy your work, but at the same time makes the images > worthless to use by other people than yourself. > * Frank *
To: medium-format@yahoogroups.com From: Robert Monaghan rmonagha@post.cis.smu.edu> Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 Subject: Re: [medium-format] larger than std 35mm negative horizonally yes, the stitching software approach has its benefits. there are free software modules (see mf/lists.html for panoramic list and archives). you can't stitch together moving action shots very well, so panoramics and large formats still have a place. ;-) The horizon can have its problems, but I have been happy with mine, as have many others, esp. at $200-250 US. The widelux and noblex are other options, but more $$ by far. The xpan hasselblad makes them look cheap too ;-) These use 35mm film... medium format film is relatively cheaper per square inch than 35mm or LF, but if you are going to cut out a 1" (24mm) panoramic you aren't going to be getting the full benefit of medium format's higher quality in that dimension. But you will get a more panoramic 24x56mm (on 6x6cm) shot you can't get with 35mm. And you can select where to crop (handy with buildings, as a built-in shift lens effect, see mf/square.html). But I would explore stitching software with 35mm, if you have the scanning gear, as a low/no cost way to do panoramics, then look into panoramic cameras (for action etc) and medium format when you can define a need to do so. Film costs add up if you shoot a lot, but frankly, the film is modest for most panoramic camera shooters. Many folks with kilobuck panoramic cameras only shoot a few shots on any given day. I bought a horizon 202s from a guy who had shot only about a roll of 24 exp. per month in it. I have averaged a roll+ a week this semester, but did 220+ rolls of C41 plus slides in 35mm, and lots of 6x6cm chromes etc. So film costs are relatively modest compared to the special nature of composing panoramics, sort of like fisheyes, they are unique and nifty but you don't shoot lots of them on most outings ;-) Similarly, I wouldn't pick a medium format camera because it had a 35mm capability to do panoramics (unless you need a 35mm only specialty emulsion like infrared). You just will be using it probably 95% for general shooting if you are like most of us, and only doing a panoramic crop now and again. see http://www.mamiya.com/photography.asp?id=4&id2;=129 on comparing size impact of medium format vs 35mm etc. for some reasons HTH bobm
From chinese camera mailing list: Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 From: "tigerarm2000" tigerarm2000@yahoo.com Subject: Some interesting new products A manufacturer in Hangzhou developed a series of digital film backs for 120 SLRs such as Hasselbald.The top model has a 16 M. resolution but must be connected to a computer therefore it is intended for studio shooting only. The price is about 30,000 US dollars if my memory serves. Another company also in Hangzhou called SHENLONG developed a 360 deg. swing lens 120 camera. The camera is equipped with 2 lenses 4/75 and 125/4 and has a speed range of 8"-1/60". The whole outfit includes the camera body,2 lenses,a tripod.and an aluminum case costs 28,000 RMB (USD 3,500). But the special enlarger alone costs another 38,000RMB. The company also offers a 120 SLR with a format of 60mmx80mm.The camera has only one speed 1/30" for flash so it is also intended for studio works only. the basic outfit includes a camera,a125/4 or a 180/4 lens and costs RMB2980(USD350). My impression is that Chinese Photo industry is trying to catch up and some of the companies might be competative in a few years.So we just wait and see. Zhang
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 From: Gene Johnson genej2@home.com To: Camera Makers Mailing List: Subject: Re: [Cameramakers] ROTATING CAMERA PROJECT IDEAS There is a nice low voltage solenoid inside the plastic pyramid shaped Polaroid cameras. Also a nice little motor, some rollers and gears and a great first surface mirror. I buy them at thrift stores all the time for 1-3 dollars. Gene

Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 From: Ellis Vener evphoto@insync.net To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: V-Pan >Anyone know the telephone/address of V-Pan, Chet Hanchette: I have a >film magazine that has rewind problems. Thanks. Peter Miller > Peter, I should think you have rewind problems with your V-Pan. Last I checked it worked like every medium format camera I've ever used, the camera winds the film from the supply reel to the take up reel. If you've discovered a way to make the camera rewind , I'd sure like to hear about it! Chett is no longer making the V-Pan. Last I heard he was running a bed & breakfast in St. Louis and recovering from open heart surgery (that was middle of last year). You might want to find a good camera repairman or machinist in your neighborhood or in Boston. Mechanically the V-Pan is a pretty simple (if ingenious) camera. Ellis Vener Houston, Texas

Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 From: Ben Aguayo info@change7.com To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Distribute your images and panorama files to anyone [Advertising] I'm sending this emai to the list to let you know about a new program, called Pano2exe. Pano2exe is intended to convert panoramic 360Y JPEG images into stand-alone executable programs. It also can create installation packages to distribute your panoramas or images. There are several advantages in converting panoramas to self-executable files (*.EXE) instead of distributing them as QuickTime movies: 1. Quality. JPEG images do not display color banding. So skies and other backgrounds can be shown with excellent definition. 2. Smallness. JPEG images are smaller than QuickTime movies. The size of the viewer attached to the images is only 66 KB. 3. Facility of use. Not all people have QuickTime installed. Only a self-executable file (*.EXE) can grant you that all people you sent a panorama will view it. Pano2exe can also creates installers, so you can include one or more panorama files into a professional looking install package. The uninstall feature is included. Pano2exe allows adding sounds (in .WAV format) to the installations, so sounds can play while panoramas are shown. Note: You can install QuickTime and JPEG files are supported only in the registered version. The unregistered version can create installation including self-executable panorama files and .WAV sounds. I will glady answer any question regarding the program. Ben Aguayo

Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 From: MMagid3005@aol.com To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Effective shutter speeds for swing lens I did this for a friend today, and since I've never seen the calculations on this list or anywhere else, I thought some would find it useful. Please let me know if there are any errors. Marty The effective shutter speed (ESS) of swing lens cameras is determined by 3 factors: 1. W=The width of the slot that passes along the film plane. 2. L=The length of the film that is being exposed. 3. T= Time the slot takes to pass the entire length of film, in seconds. The formula is ESS = (W/L) X T. W and L should be the same units, both inches or both millimeters. Examples: My Al-Vista 5D exposes a 16 inch length of film (L). The slot is 0.5 inches wide (W). Without using any of the fans that come with the camera, the slot takes 2.5 seconds to traverse the film length (T). Therefore, the effective shutter speed (ESS) is (0.5/16) X 2.5 = .078 sec., or 1/13 sec. Using the same camera with a #2 fan, it takes 14 seconds for the slot to pass the entire length of film. Therefore, the ESS is (0.5/16) X 14 = .44 sec., or about 1/2 sec. These calculated Effective Shutter Speeds can be used with an ordinary exposure meter to determine the proper lens opening.

Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 From: AJNECP@aol.com To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Effective shutter speeds for swing lens MMagid3005@aol.com writes: >> . W=The width of the slot that passes along the film plane. The duration of time it takes the slot of the given width to expose film of the same length as the width of the slot..... i.e. a 5mm slot takes 1/2 sec to expose a 5mm length of the film, the time is therefore a 1/2 second exposure.

Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 From: ADavidhazy ANDPPH@ritvax.isc.rit.edu To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Effective shutter speeds for swing lens It seems to me that essentially you are stating that the Exposure Time is equal to the "slot" or shutter-slit size divided by the Rate of Motion of same. This particular example uses the travel time of the slot past a known length of film to determine travel rate. Not bad! This is the same formula used for focal plane shutter exposure time determination. In the case of Cirkut cameras the formula is the same except the rate of motion is that of the film past the exposing slit. Has anyone done any determination of (Actual) Effective Exposure in these shutters as influenced by the efficiency of the shutter? Shutter slits located at some distance from the film plane are more prone to exhibiting a discrepancy between quick-n-dirty calculations and those that take efficiency into account. Use of large apertures and small slit sizes would be particularly affected by efficiency considerations. Oh, I have not done such studies! This is merely something to ponder for me before getting to that first cup of coffee this morning! Andy

Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 From: MMagid3005@aol.com To: ANDPPH@ritvax.rit.edu, panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Effective shutter speeds for swing lens Yes, I am saying that the exposure given to any point on the film is determined by the speed of the slot and the width of the slot. The speed, or velocity, is the distance the slot travels (the film length) divided by the time it takes to travel that length. That's the formula I've used for my Al-Vista, and it has proven to be accurate with chrome film, which does not have much latitude. Marty

Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 From: SegalPan@aol.com To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: XPAN The Xpan has a weakness - i have had both of my Xpan bodies repaired in the past year - what happens is the rangefinder mechanism loosens up due to use, handling and being bumped around - it is extremely sensitive so unless you want to spend $300+ over and over again, I suggest you handle your Xpan very carefully. Otherwise I love the little guys - i shoot 90% with the 45mm lense, altho i own the 90 and 30 lenses. Mark Segal

Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 From: Mike Bell qt@ibvr.com To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: XPAN If your primary need is for panoramic images the Noblex web site, http://www.noblex.com has an excellent comparison of a number of formats which, in my opinion, show the XPAN to be pretty limited as a panoramic camera. A swing lense or rotational camera will give you better panoramic images and, in some cases, at a lower price. Where the XPAN scores, of course, is the ability to switch from one format to the other and this may be your main consideration. Had I not seen some of the comments on the list from XPAN owners I would have assumed that quality would also have been a plus point but this also seems debatable. Good luck with your choice. Mike Bell >I'm thinking about buying a Hasselblad XPan, and I remember past discussions >on this list about it so I was wondering if there is an archive I could find. > I also heard that the XPan is made by Fuji and that Fuji makes an identical >camera but they are prohibited from the U.S. market. I would appreciate any >comments on the XPan, especially by those who have owned them, and on how to >get one of the Fujis. I live across the Detroit River from Ontario -- would >that help? > >Marty -- Mike Bell Ingham-Bell & Company Ltd

Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 From: "George S. Pearl" alps007@mindspring.com To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: WIDEPAN web site? Hello, No, not yet for the WIDEPAN since we will be introducing it at the PMA show later this month. We will have a site for it after the intro. Stay tuned for more WIDEPAN news in the future. My best, George S. Pearl, QPP ALPS - WIDEPAN Cameras 1-800-873-2577 Atlanta, GA.

From: brianc1959@aol.com (brian) Newsgroups: rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment.35mm Subject: Ultra-High Resolution Stitched Mosaics Date: 13 Feb 2002 I've just put up a small collection of multi-row panoramas stitched with Panorama Tools. All are from New York City, my former home, where I felt compelled to return last fall after the disaster. Fortunately, most of my favorite places are still standing and seem more beautiful than ever before. http://www.caldwellphotographic.com/NYCMosaics.html You can also follow a link on this page to a detailed tutorial I wrote on how to make multi-row panoramas. I prefer the term "mosaics". All images were shot using a Nikon D1x camera, and most were taken using using the cheapest of all Nikon lenses: a 50mm f/1.8. Stitching provides the means for creating medium format or even large format image quality using a normal (i.e. non-scanning) digital camera. For example the Jefferson Market Library shot compares very favorably with an image I shot from the same location using a 165mm Super Angulon on 8x10" film a few years ago. Brian

From: "John Houghton" j.houghton@ntlworld.com Newsgroups: rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment.35mm Subject: Re: Ultra-High Resolution Stitched Mosaics Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 Eric, As an introduction, try this beginner's stitching tutorial at http://homepage.dtn.ntl.com/j.houghton/pttute.htm If you manage to follow that, you should be able to graduate onto Brian's without any trouble. John ...

From: brianc1959@aol.com (brian) Newsgroups: rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment.35mm Subject: Re: Ultra-High Resolution Stitched Mosaics Date: 17 Feb 2002 Eric: If you are trying to use Panorama Tools by itself without the assistance of one of the new graphical user interfaces then your comments are right on the money, and I hope you haven't become too frustrated by the experience. The idea of having to write scripts was very alien to me, and it prevented me from even trying Panorama Tools for over a year until I learned that Joost Nieuwenhuijse had developed an intuitive graphical user interface called PTGui. Joost now charges $40 for PTGui, and it is available at http://www.ptgui.com/ . Max Lyons' PTAssembler interface is also excellent as well as free, and is available at http://tawba.tripod.com/ptasmblr.htm . With either PTGui or PTAssembler, all you do is select the "Add" button, and then select all of the images you want to use in the panorama. All of the images should then automatically load onto the program. If you have trouble using either PTGui or PTAssembler you might try contacting the respective authors, as they are both very helpful and forthcoming in my experience. Once you get through the process a couple of times it should become routine, and you can concentrate on non-computer matters. Good Luck Brian

From: "Eric Miller" ericmiller@ericmiller.dynip.com Newsgroups: rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment.35mm Subject: Re: Ultra-High Resolution Stitched Mosaics Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 Yep, I downloaded PTGui, the trial version. It is worth its weight in gold! Thanks to you and to John Houghton for pointing me in the right direction. Eric Miller ....

Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 From: MMagid3005@aol.com Reply to: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Panoram shutter speeds I did a side-by-side comparison of photos between my No. 1 Panoram and a new Mamiya rangefinder, and the Panoram's effective speed was about 1/125. Marty

Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 From: MMagid3005@aol.com To: rsage@infi.net Subject: Re: Panoram shutter speeds My No. 1 seems to have a focal length of about 100mm and an aperture of about 7mm. so that would make an f stop of about 14.3. A couple of years ago someone on this (or another) list said the advertised lens opening for the No. 1 Panoram was f/13. Marty

From: brianc1959@aol.com (brian) Newsgroups: rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Subject: Ultra-High Resolution Stitched Mosaics Date: 13 Feb 2002 I've just put up a small collection of multi-row panoramas stitched with Panorama Tools. All are from New York City, my former home, where I felt compelled to return last fall after the disaster. Fortunately, most of my favorite places are still standing and seem more beautiful than ever before. http://www.caldwellphotographic.com/NYCMosaics.html You can also follow a link on this page to a detailed tutorial I wrote on how to make multi-row panoramas. I prefer the term "mosaics". All images were shot using a Nikon D1x camera, and most were taken using using the cheapest of all Nikon lenses: a 50mm f/1.8. Stitching provides the means for creating medium format or even large format image quality using a normal (i.e. non-scanning) digital camera. For example the Jefferson Market Library shot compares very favorably with an image I shot from the same location using a 165mm Super Angulon on 8x10" film a few years ago. Brian

From: David Littlewood david@demon.co.uk Newsgroups: rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Subject: Re: Ultra-High Resolution Stitched Mosaics Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 .... >Hi David: >You're right, the posterization is due to jpeg compression and is not >visible in the original files. Blue sky seems to show all sorts of >problems like this. Unfortunately, my site would fill up in a hurry >if I used level 12 JPEGs for every image! My sympathies. I know when I spent a large part of my time doing Ilfochrome prints, clear blue skies were the bane of my life; the very slightest unevenness in processing, which would be totally invisible in a "ground" or cloudy area, would stand out like a sore thumb in a blue sky. -- David Littlewood

From: pjrose@frontiernet.net (Phil Rose) Newsgroups: rec.photo.digital,rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Subject: Re: Ultra-High Resolution Stitched Mosaics Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 ... If you're referring to what I _think_ you're referring to, I find it to be a _browser_ problem--particularly a fault of Netscape. Netscape's dithering--last I looked--was very inferior (to Explorer), and it inevitably caused posterization effects in any smooth gradient portion of an image. The poor jpeg rendering was the reason I finally abandoned use of Netscape and now use (ugh) Explorer. So your photos look absolutely +great+ to me. Phil Phil Rose Rochester, NY

From Panoramic Mailing List: Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 From: simonwide simonwide@earthlink.net Subject: Re: FS: custom 6x12 camera body omigoodness, there is a simpler way to do this.it was written as a pair of simon says columns in popular photography mid 1970. start by asking list participant glenn barry in australia. my own sectioned magazine for 6x12cm is on guam ......same thinking as 6x18cm mamiya magazine(s) used on 1964 simon/wide. original concept was not to have to diddle
with film counter and splice two 6x9cm mags to have one. mine was for 6x12 slr i used till nov 1968. later use in 1976 on back of speed graphic.no mods were made to film winding
knob. hand wind 1,3, 5, 7........ capice? price the ready made 6x12cm mags as you research
for your lotta money wail. simon nathan
DFStein@aol.com wrote:
Why not publish a tutorial for us on how to do that-esp the counter
adjustment. THAT's a lot of money,
THANKS

Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 From: "George S. Pearl" alps007@mindspring.com To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Panflex being reborn as WIDEPAN :-) Yes Dennis, you are correct! The camera did indeed start out as the Panflex... until I got a hold of it. I have been working with the company to re-design and change many things on the original camera to make this a truly great 140 degree shooting camera. Along with the alterations and up-dates to the camera came the new name for the new camera to become: WIDEPAN. I have been shooting with the prototype of the new camera, and it is a joy to use and the pictures are incredible. I was at first very leery of this camera and its possible manufacture until I got involved with the company and started working with the camera and the people making it. I believe we have turned an "OK thing" into a great thing for panorama shooters. We have so much belief in this camera's ability and construction that I have been able to place a 3 year warranty against any mechanical problems on the camera! What other camera company does such a thing? Even though I have and use 3 different Roundshot cameras and love them, I have quickly found that there is a needed place for this kind of hand-holdable panorama camera. It is just so fast to use and easy for fleeting moments to capture a panorama. I am not real easy to impress, but I am blow away with the new WIDEPAN. WIDEPAN.....coming soon to the PMA booth # 4753, Feb. 24th - 27th Orlando, FL., and after which to hopefully a dealer near you! My best, George S. Pearl, QPP ALPS - Widepan Camera

From Panoramic Mailing List: Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 From: Bill Glickman bglick@pclv.com Subject: Re: input needed for study George....the dream camera is already built! outside of rotational cameras, there is the Dr. Gilde camera, very expensive but the ultimate design for a Pan camera.... http://www.gilde-kamera.de/ Then the more economical approach, but bigger and bulkier is Keith Canhams new 6x17 back, due out very soon.... it fits on his field 5x7 camera...so it can double as a 5x7 or 4x5 camera and uses all the same lenses and has all view camera movements.... very crafty... While the Gilde camera you can shoot 6x4.5.... 6x6, 6x7, 6x9, 6x12, 6x17.....all one the same roll film! Bill

From Panoramic Mailing List: Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 From: ralph fuerbringer rof@mac.com Subject: Re: input needed for study i had my dream camera made up: it is 6x17 with the 47xl superangulon, a 90 super angulon, removable mid frame with a slide in the roll holder (made from 2 brooks veriwide back, auto counting 120 or 220 (9 shots) ground glass. i design/refine rectilinear extreme wide angles cameras.my vistashift-612 and 45 downsize cameras with 35 to 55 apo-grandagons plus shift and polaroid can be seen at http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/vista612.html ralph fuerbringer

From panoramic mailing list: Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 From: "A. Buck, G. Wietelmann" buckwiet@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Gilde camera and 6x14cm format (commercial) I've had two film holders made that shoot 6x14 and have used them for 3-4 years. But I guess you meant "commercial cameras". I spoke with Keith Canham about 3-4 months ago about having his back altered to make 5 6x14 exposures. Since his back has motorized winding, he said it would probably be easy enough to change a value in the software so that the right mount was wound. andy

Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 From: WILLIAM D SCHWADERER WDAVID@prodigy.net To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: software stitching recommendations? > I'm Peter McLennan. I've been lurking here for a week or so. I've been > stitching panoramas quite successfully with Photovista, but it does have > some limitations. I'd love to know if there are better alternatives. > > Anyone have any advice? Peter, I researched all available stitchers when I designed SpinPic's. I chose to bundle Panorama Factory with our product because of the output quality and the incredible support John Strait gave when I sent him deliberately dumb questions. As a shareware package, it has a free-trial period. Nothing spent, nothing lost if it does not meet your hopes. Give it a shot and use it to re-stitch your problem capture sequences. I bet you would pay double the price gladly. All stitchers have their side effects. But I have never been disappointed with Panorama Factory. Been there, chose it. http://www.panoramafactory.com --- Best regards, W. David Schwaderer SpinPic President and CEO http://www.spinpic.com/

Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 From: "George S. Pearl" alps007@mindspring.com To: PanoramaList panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Machine printing panorama format! HELP!!! Dear Panorama Group, It is amazing to me that where there are literally thousands of panorama cameras in the hands of thousands of photographers all over the world, these people don't seem to be questioning the companies that are making the printing equipment bout why they can't get machine prints made from their negatives! Since I have just taken on the WIDEPAN camera line to distribute in Canada, USA & Caribbean, I too was miffed as to why all of the cameras both 35mm and 120/220mm that are just swing lens designed, or are wide like the Hasselblad X-Pan where the negatives are longer than the "standard" 35mm frame, can't be machine printed. I think the reason is that not enough of you are asking for this service directly to the companies that MAKE the processing and printing equipment being sold to all of the photo labs worldwide. Our camera makes 35mm negatives that are 24mm x 110mm, and it also makes 120/220mm negatives that are 50mm x 110mm. Why can't these be machine printed I asked. Now maybe there is hope...read on.... While exhibiting at the PMA show last month in Orlando, FL., I was able to make appointments to consult with FUJI, KODAK, and NORITSU about this machine printing question and their new machines. I was doing this for not only our camera's buyers, but for all panorama camera customers worldwide. I spent the better part of a day in meetings for Noblex owners, Widelux owners, for Horizon owners, for Hasselblad X-Pan, for Roundshot 35, for Panon, for Cyclops, for Electropan, for Spinshot, for all of these types of camera owners that shoot cameras that make either 35mm or 120mm negatives that are under 5 inches in length. Unfortunatly the FUJI folks were not able to incorporate negatives of this size into their new Frontier Printers, but Kodak and Noritsu were very interested and open to this format when I explained just how many different kinds of these cameras were "out there" and are continued to be sold every day all over the world! They had no concept! Noritsu said that, "Several customers did in fact ask them about printing this size." Hum...it seems that for over 50 years now there have been 1,000's of these cameras sold that produce these longer negatives, and they had someone ask them? Ding dong...panorama format calling! Hard to beleive it isn't it? The new digital scanning and then photo paper printing design of the new machine printers from Noritsu and Kodak scan the entire roll of film first. Then their software must 'read' where the frames are located. >From that point on, it is "no problem to make machine prints"....so I am told. OK, So.... all they are needing to do is to correctly program their software to allow the scanner to detect our longer format frames as valid negatives for printing. They will need to add these new formats into their menus available for printing on their new processor / printers. I do not know just how many of you owning panorama cameras like this I am reaching by this one email, and then just how many of you will act on this, but I am doing this for you..... PLEASE....if there are enough of you out there wanting this, you also should send email asking for the formats to be incorporated into their new equipment design. Don't leave out the panorama photographers worldwide when it will be so easy to add our format into their software mix. Send your email to: Guy Calkins for Kodak; Guy.Calkins@Kodak.com Tetsuya "Ted" Wada for Noritsu; twada@noritsu.com Steven L. Lefkowicz for Noritsu; slefkowicz@noritsu.com Larry Hilderman for Noritsu Canada; lhilderman@noritsu.com Jeff Nienhaus for Pakon; jnienhaus@impak.com Carolyn Ryan, Editor...Focus on Imaging Magazine; cryan@rfpublishing.com Peter Lorber, President IAPP; CustomLab@aol.com (I realize that our IAPP President also owns a 'custom' panoramic photo lab, but for the good of panorama photographers everywhere I am in hopes that he will step up to the plate and help contact manufacturers of photo finishing equipment to push this issue. It is for the good of the panoramic photography community worldwide. When the film format for these cameras is so hard to get prints made, the art of panorama photography itself is being held back simply because there are so few places for machine prints to be produced.) Thank you for your attention and your support to this important matter . I am Very truly yours, George S. Pearl, QPP ALPS - WIDEPAN Cameras 2139 Liddell Drive, NE Atlanta, Georgia 30324-4132 Tel: 404-872-2577 Fax: 404-872-0548 Mobile:404-840-0834 Home: 404-634-1139 http://www.widepan.com

Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 From: DFStein@aol.com To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Best stitching software for Mac OS? It may be worth starting with Photoshop Elements. $99 or a giveaway with many products. If you have a copy of Photoshop 4 or LE kicking around, I even think you can upgrade to it.

Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 From: Kerry Swartz kerry@swartz.net To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Noblex 135U repair You might try the Canadian distributor of Nolblex for parts: http://www.whistlerinns.com/noblex/ Kerry

From Panoramic Mailing LIst: Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 From: ralph fuerbringer rof@mac.com Subject: how wide the 617's/ the horseman 612 rollholder has a horizontal film opening just short of 112mm , a full 8mm short of that key dimension in its name. does anyone know the actual horizontal aperature on these so-called 617's: linhof technorama 617, fixed 90mm lens? Fuji 617 with fixed 105? Linhof 617 with interchangeable lenses? Fuji 617 with interdhangeable lenses? it would be useful to know the true horizontal dimensions of these 617's instead of swallowing manufacturers possible b.s. I've ralph nadered the horseman 612 (not 12cm with any caliper) can any on the list do the same for 1 or more of these 617's? i suspect none are 17cm but love to hear i am misjudging Linhof and Fuji. ralph

Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 From: "Mitchell P. Warner" indepth@mpwarner.com Reply to: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: how wide the 617's/ The opening on my V-Pan Mk III is 182mm. This may seem an advantage but I have to be careful with images that I'm going to put in cardboard mount. If I fill the image area corner to corner then the mounted image seems inept. mpwarner

Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 From: "M. Denis Hill" denis@area360.com To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: RE: how wide the 617's/ I just checked a Fuji G617 tranny; it measures 6-5/8". M. Denis Hill Qualified Panoramic Photographer

From Panoramic Mailing List: Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 From: adrijanus@juno.com Subject: Re:RE: how wide the 617's/ Linhof 617 (fixed lens): almost 6 3/4, or 17.1cm exactly Fuji 617 (fixed lens): almost 6 5/8, or 16.8cm exactly Old Navy Torpedo or Burke & James Royal Panoram back: 17.8cm or eactly 7 inches (the winner!) While the Linhof and Fuji uses the entire width (height in this case) of the film, the Torpedo back only uses 2 inches exactly. Hope this helps.

From: w.j.markerink@a1.nl (Willem-Jan Markerink) Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Subject: Re: Noblex 150U Date: Sun, 10 Feb 02 .... But don't forget to try vertical panorama's too....a few examples, in a sublimation (pun intended, you'll see why) of panorama, infrared and winter/snow(skiing) can be found on: http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/mainpage.htm tp://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/mainpage.htm (note that all thes were taken with a Horizon 202....I do have just as stunning samples from the Noblex 150 (yes, you can use Kodak HIE with that format, simply cut-down 70mm Aerographic IR), but those haven't been digitized yet (the current pans were scanned from print, bought a Leaf45 to get to the ultimate limit of B&W; scanning)). -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink w.j.markerink@a1.nl [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]

From: w.j.markerink@a1.nl (Willem-Jan Markerink) Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Subject: Re: Noblex 150U Date: Sun, 10 Feb 02 Paolo paolo_zanini@yahoo.com wrote: >Any experience with Noblex 150U ? >I usually take photos in the Italian mountains. Recommendations are >welcome. >Thank you. >Paolo Hi Paolo, Just remember to have an extra set of batteries at hand in case you want to use it in winter (like I do). If you want some inspiration of what you can do with infrared & panorama in winter: http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/thumnail.htm Those are from 35mm & a Horizon 202, but I have done the same with a Noblex 150, with even more dazzling results (not scanned yet). Requires a lot of effort and preparation (both filters & film), but is worth every penny & drop of sweat.... -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink w.j.markerink@a1.nl [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] PS: there is a Panorama Mailinglist available too; see the PhotoForum link on my homepage: http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/mainpage.htm

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 From: "George S. Pearl" alps007@mindspring.com To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: 24 Feb. @ PMA booth # 4753... WIDEPAN!!! Hello group! The 140 degree WIDEPAN camera is on its way to make new inroads into panorama photography! This all new swing lens panorama camera can shoot 120mm, 220mm or 35mm film (with adapter kit), giving a negative size of 21/4" X 5"! The focusable lens is extremely sharp, and look Ma...no batteries to go dead! The camera operates on 'human power' to prevent problems such a batteries going dead in the cold or the wrong moment. With shutter speeds of 1/2 a second, 1/60th, and 1/250th of a second, it will enable 99.99% of any required exposure situation, especially when you find out that the price for this camera will be under $1,500 suggested retail. Come see us at ALPS - WIDEPAN Cameras, Booth # 4753 at the PMA show in Orlando. I have just barely touched on the features of this incredible new medium-format panorama camera. You will be seeing and learning more about the WIDEPAN in the very near future after its formal introduction at the PMA show. Thanks, George S. Pearl, FEPIC, BCEP, BCQDE, QPP Toll Free Nationally: 800-873-2577 "http://www.alpslabs.com" "http://www.atlantapanorama.com"

Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 From: Peter Marshall petermarshall@cix.compulink.co.uk To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: All quiet > Yes, I'd suggest killing two birds with one stone and getting an Xpan. > It looks quite Leicaish and does panos as well... > > AJNECP@aol.com wrote: > > LeicaChris@worldnet.att.net > > writes: > > > > << I'll try the Horizon first. Noblex would cut into my Leica fund. >> > > > > From the frying pan into the fire........ It is only really any good at panos with the 30mm, which makes it a rather expensive option, more than the Leica fund. Working with the 45mm is just like working with a standard lens, but having an extra bit of subject on each side. The 30mm gets the angle of view just over 90 degrees horizontal and things start to get interesting, though if you are really interested in panoramas the Horizon is generally more impressive. It is handy to be able to shoot normal format, but no replacement for a Leica. Nice camera certainly. Peter Marshall Photography Guide at About http://photography.about.com/ email: photography.guide@about.com

Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 From: "George S. Pearl" alps007@mindspring.com To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: WIDEPAN lens system Hi buddy, How are things in Belgium? The lens is a 50mm F3.8 - F22. The lens will allow focusing from about 3.5 feet (.8 meters) to infinity. The lens is extremely sharp for a camera with a swinging lens. It is a Tesser type made with 4 elements in 3 groups. I really have to hand it to the Chinese for this really cool unexpected camera. I once had something sort of like it made by the Panon Camera Company in Japan (Widelux). The camera was called a Panox and was also a 2 1/4 x 5 inch 120mm format covering 140 degrees. It too had a 50mm lens that was able to focus. It also was a spring driven hand cocking kind of camera. I used that camera for over 20 years with never a problem because it was simple. The WIDEPAN has all of the good things that the Panox had plus so many more updates and improvements over that same idea of camera. My Chinese camera maker has told me that he did not copy the Panox camera, but it sure has the same idea as far as I can see. That is not a bad thing because my old Panox made in the 60's was still clicking along when I sold it last year. The new WIDEPAN will come with a 3 year warranty against any problem mechanically. Who else does such a thing unless they believe in the camera to continue to correctly operate for years and years? After the PMA show in Orlando later this month, I will be showing pictures and giving more details on this 120mm, 220mm, and 35mm (with adapter) film camera. My best, George S. Pearl, QPP ALPS - WIDEPAN Camera

Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 From: Andrew Eschbacher photolists@sc.rr.com To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Who is printing Pans in the US? Mitch, Try www.colorfolio.com. They print all my color and Black & White stuff, including the pans. Ask for Bob Cornelis. Drew you wrote: >All, > > I'm looking for a panoramic printer, in the USA, who can print > from digital files. > >Suggestions please. > >Mitch Warner

Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 From: Harold Wong hgw@math.ucla.edu To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Who is printing Pans in the US? Give http://www.fullcirclephoto.com/ a call but for sure Pro Photo Connection will print from digital 800-732-6361 Harold

[Ed. note: see link on aerial panoramic photography site!...] Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 From: michael przewrocki europanorama@web.de To: rmonagha@post.cis.smu.edu Subject: panflex-title wrong dear bob, as a long year-specialist i am very happy finding you again concerning details about the new panflex, a copy of widelux 1500. but th title is wrong. tha camera exposes a 55x112mm not 120mm negative. [Ed. note: fixed!] this is almost 10 % smaller than widelux 1500, noblex 150 pro, horizon 205 pc/pan 120. 128 instead of 140 degrees of horizontal angel, a big difference! do not miss checking my website: http://www.europanorama.ch.vu have a look at my rotating prism aeropanoramic camera fairchild kb 18b markerink as you know has a similar camera in his files, 70mm and 5 inch versions. I would like to get a pankopta 105mm swing-lens panoramic camera. there are not much around. byby michael

[Ed. note: thanks again to Michael for these updates and tips on resources!] Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 From: michael przewrocki europanorama@web.de To: rmonagha@post.cis.smu.edu Subject: pan 120-link does not work hi bob again the pan 120-link does not work. http://www.free-photons.de/pano120.htm [Ed. note: site has changed, linked to home page] silvestri.it (silvestricamera.com) has details. kmz offers the shipping of the horizon 205 pc. (a similar model like pan 120)min. are 2 cameras! i do not need 2 at the moment. i need one more rotating prism pancam. fairchild kb or ka 18 a or b (complete), evtl. camera-only or cam plus magazine without remote control. michael

From: dickburk@ix.netcom.com (Richard Knoppow) Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format Subject: Re: Eastman Kodak Banquet Camera Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 sanking@clemson.edu (Sandy King) wrote: >There is a 12X20 banquet camera for sale now on ebay, at >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item;=1350876186 > >I knew that Korona (or Gundlach), Folmer and Schwing, B&J;, and even >Deardorf made banquet cameras but this is the first time I have ever seen >an Eastman Kodak banquet camera of any size for sale. Does anyone have >additional information about when this camera was manufactured. > > >Sandy King The camera was made by Folmer and Schwing during the time it was owned by Kodak. F&S; was aquired by Kodak around 1905 and reorganized into an independant company (The Folmer Graflex Corp.) in 1926 as the result of an anti-trust action. From its aquisition until 1917 the company was known as the Folmer & Schwing Division of Eastman Kodak. >From 1917 until 1926 is was called the Folmer & Schwing Department of EK. F&S; was combined with the Century Camera Company, also aquired by EK (in 1901). This division made most of Kodak's view and studio cameras and the famous Cirkut panoramic cameras. So, if your camera has a label saying F&S; DIVISION it was made sometime between 1905 and 1917. --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA. dickburk@ix.netcom.com

From BJP Digital News - 28 May 2002

Applied Image Technology now has wide format papers for digital printing in widths from 24 inches to 60 inches (5 feet!), in either glossy or satin finishes. Various dye or inkjet bases; prices $.60/ft in 100 ft rolls on up; ph: 01732 875000 (UK)

From panoramic mailing list: Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 From: Dave Buyens davepe@tampabay.rr.com To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: RE: 60 inch wide x 100 ft long papers - printers? Robert, Check out the link for the Epson 10000. I've seen plotters even wider and more impressive. All it takes is $$. http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/WideFormat/WideFormatDetail.jsp?BV_Sessio nID=@@@@1066846335.1023142758@@@@&BV;_EngineID=fadcefcldhdfbfdmcfjgckidnf.0&i; nfoType=Overview&oid;=4742585&category;=Wide+Format+Printers Here is just one place that does such work. It is a copy store. Printing houses are sure to offer better services. http://www.kinkos.com/our_services/store_services/signs_banners.php#order_info5 Dave Robert Monaghan wrote: > My question is what printers will handle such widths and lengths of wide > format papers? Are there any services providing such widths (24 > to 60 inches) in extended panoramic format lengths? prices?

From rollei mailing list: Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 From: bigler@ens2m.fr To: rollei@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us Subject: Re: [Rollei] Panorama head question > I'm wondering if using a Rollei panoramic head Joe. There has been at least two models of the R-TLR panorama head. Basically what you need **for a R-TLR** is to rotate around a point which is located somewhere in the middle of the lens and not the bottom screw. So any modern rail like Manfrotto has on catalog will do the job to adjust to the **proper** rotating point. What is this proper point of rotation is explained below, I hope in detail (pardon me if it is too long). You can jump to the conclusions directly also. Moreover for the R-TLR there is a mechanical advantage since most of the weight is under the lens and not under the bottom screw. So the camera, mostly Planar and Xenotar (heavier than Tessars and Xenars) R-TLR cameras are much better balanced when the fixing point is in fact under the lens. > generally gives images that appear to line up properly when put > together afterwards (I'd be scanning and then joining them in > Photoshop), or if particular conditions are required, such as > avoiding certain subject matter (like regular geometric patterns, > squares etc). I'm thinking primarily of making images from two or > three frames, shooting landscapes, cityscapes and interiors. Any > hints appreciated. Joe B. The question you raise is the question of 'panoramic stitching'. There are several issues there. First, even if you do not take into account the question of parallax alignments, which are solved if you set the right rotating point, you'll not be able to render as a straight line on the image a long-long straight line of the object. In architecture, this is certainly not acceptable to have straight lines rendered as polygonal lines. In landscape this is less a problem. Now we come to the delicate and potentially controversial question of "what is the proper rotation point". For a long time I had mis-conceptions about that and what I am saying here is the result of careful examinations and discussions with some French experts so I'm pretty sure about the theory behind even if it is hard to find a detailed reference in a textbook. First, the right rotation point for the kind of panoramic stitching you need is *not* the *rear* nodal point of the lens. Yes a photographic lens is always a compound so you have to take into account the fact that the front and read nodal points are separate. The rear nodal point is used to rotate a lens barrel in another kind of panoramic cameras, where the *film* is fixed w/respect to the landscape and the *lens* is rotating. This is another story. Here with a regular camera and a "panorama" attachment, the film is fixed w/respect to the lens and both (lens + film) rotate together. The problem is different, but what is the problem ??? You want that aligned objects in the object space be rendered as aligned images on the film for **all successive images** you want to stitch. In other words, what you **do not want** is to see that somebody initially well hidden behind a tree on image #1, could be visible on image #2 because the lens has slightly shifted sideways (a parallax effect) due to an improper choice of the rotation point. In this case even the best stitching software will be helpless. So what you want is that aligned points in the object space are rendered as aligned points... well not in the image space in general but **on the detector**, a film or a digital sensor. Usually this detector is plane. And the key point is that except the only object plane which is, strictly speaking, the optical conjugate of your film (and yes you can also consider a pair of Scheimpflug slanted planes), **most objects are rendered as out-of-focus images**. Hopefully depth-of-field of course allows to a certain extent a whole volume of the object space to rendered "approximately sharp" on film. This is the core of the story. Out of focus images have no reason to obey optical conjugation rules like true optically conjugate planes (parallel or slanted in the Scheimplfulg case). So **out of focus images do not care for the position of nodal points**. The right rotation point **is not the front nodal point of the lens**, in the most general case. There is an exception for symmetric or quasi-symmetric thick lenses, see below, and *there* is a source of confusion. The right rotation point is in fact **THE ENTRANCE PUPIL OF THE LENS**. Why. Because out of focus images are built by the projection of the *exit* pupil on the film, for optical reasons difficult to detail here, you should rotate the camera around the centre of the **entrance pupil** to keep the alignments identical on successive images to be stitched. Difficult to explain without a ray tracing on a diagram, but here is the idea. Plot an entrance ray going through the centre of the entrance pupil, and consider all alignemnts in object space defined by this ray. It will exit from the lens at the centre of the exit pupil, and all out-o-focus circles originating from various aligned objects (on the entrance ray) projected by the exit pupil on film will be centered on the same film point. In other words, out of focus images will be 'aligned' (i.e. their centres will be the same) on the same film point, even if there is no optically "true sharp" image on film. So nodal points and conjugation formulae do not play a direct role in this parallax and alignment issue. This was something I refused to admit for a while. This entrance pupil is very close to the entrance (front) nodal point in a quasi-symmetric lens like a purely symmetrical repro lens of view cameras. Generally most view camera lenses are quasi-symmetric and the entrance pupil is located very close to the front nodal point. This applies to R-TLR lenses but **not** retrofocus (distagon) or telephoto lenses. For example there is a 180mm Nikon telephoto lens for 35mm cameras, where the entrance pupil is located **in the film plane *!!!! so there, as incredible as it may appear, the screw under the camera body is perfectly OK as the proper rotation-and-stitching point !!! Well several authors including the most respected ones like Kingslake duly mention the fact that the "centre of perspectibe is the centre of the entrance pupil", but unfortunateley they often take as an example a single element lens, which is a simple example of a perfectly symmetrical lens, where both nodal points are the same and are located in the pupil planes, both pupil planes being identical. I've hardly ever seen described the case of a a thick, asymmetrical compound lens on this delicate issue. Conclusions : they are very simple. - panoramic stitching with a regular camera is not appropriate for certain subjects where you do not want a long straight line rendered as a polygonal line. - to avoid as much as possible unwanted parallax effects, you should rotate around the centre of the entrance pupil of the lens. For a quasi-symmetrical lens like a R-TLR lens this is located a few millimetres in front of the diaphragm. For modern lenses precisely documented by the manufacturer like MF SLR Zeiss lenses, the position of the entrance pupil is written in the datasheet and I suggest that you browse through those Zeiss datasheets to make your own idea about the difference between a quasi-symmetrical lens design and a retro-focus or a telephoto as far as the position of the pupils is concerned. - once you know approximately where the entrance pupil is located, you can refine the position of the proper rotation point if you have an adjustable rail. There the ground glass attachment of the R-TLR may be helpful although unwanted parallax effects will be very hard to see on a 56x56 ground glass. I hope this is understandable, and above all, not controversial ;-);-) -- Emmanuel BIGLER bigler@ens2m.fr

From rollei mailing list: Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 From: bigler@ens2m.fr Subject: Re: [Rollei] Panorama head question, distorsion on edges From Joe B: > >I'm wondering if using a Rollei panoramic head... >From Richard K: > The images won't merge evenly at the edges due to the the lens being > rectilinear. Yes Richard ; this is an additional effect I did not mention in my long post. The proper choice of the rotation point as hopefully provided by one of the R-TRL panorama head models, unfortunately, cannot do anything for this either. For those who can read French there is an excellent article on the subject of panoramic stitching with a regular camera by Ronan Loaec in "Chasseurs d'images" No 232, april 2001, pp60-73. BTW on pp 50-53 of the same issue there is a nice comparison of used and new medium format cameras. Including of course Rollei MF cameras. All the article on panoramic stitching is excellent and without maths. Nothing to object to the contents in practice. The author clearly shows on pictures what can be done. And a lot of excellent pictures can be achieved even if some professionals do object against polygonal lines and edge distorsion. The parallax issue is very well demonstrated experimentally, very convincing. Since the author --a very minor point-- was fuzzy about the definition of the proper rotation point, I tried to find what was behind and after several errors and wrong ideas on my side (like the entrance nodal point) I was eventually taught the entrance pupil story, thanks to a passionate e-mail exchange on a French Internet photo-forum. -- Emmanuel BIGLER bigler@ens2m.fr

From panoramic mailing list: Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 From: Rick Levine rick@levinesquared.com Subject: Re: 60 inch wide x 100 ft long papers - printers? We're running a Colorspan Series 12 inkjet. We use media up to six feet wide, and usually run 12 colors in the box, CMYK + light/medium magenta & cyan + RGB + Orange. The Colorspan boxes are nice printers, given a bit of care and feeding. They're Rube Goldberg contraptions that harness up 12 600dpi HP print heads on one carriage, and do three-pass printing, offsetting the media a third of a dot on each pass. Coupled with a good RIP, you get a perceived 1800dpi output, with all 12 heads in knife-sharp registration. The color gamut on the 12-color prints is eye-popping on decent watercolor paper. The results are good enough for gallery display, which is what I do with 'em. (And, according to Wilhelm, they outlast lightjet prints on crystal archive by a good margin.) If people on the list are interested, I can work up prices for a pano scan and prints. We can scan beyond grain resolution up to 17" long, and the technology doesn't place a limit on the length of the prints we can do. (You'll run out of data long before we run out of paper!) We'd need to explore quad-tone inks for b/w, to avoid metamerism, but if there's enough interest to pay for some ink, we can do that. Rick Levine One World Arts 1831 Pearl Street Boulder, CO 80302 rick.levine@levinesquared.com

From: dickburk@ix.netcom.com (Richard Knoppow) Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format Subject: Re: Korona 7x17 info needed Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 "J Burke" burkeboyz@peoplepc.com wrote: >bought it today at $650. Original finish is excellent with a perfect Korona >Panoramic decal on the front/ GG is scratch free but not gridded (Original >maybe)/New bellows 10 years ago but never used/ Missing those rods that go >in the bottom somehow and that film holder needs some professional repair >although it is complete it is very fragile and the darkslides are warped. >J. Burke > >Didn't need it BUT you never know. Couldn't pass it up. >Any suggestions on restoring that film holder?? Who and where? Seems to be a >glass plate holder maybe > >Again will that 480 mm Nikkor cover the format or maybe my 19 Artar barrel >lens?? > > >-- >J. Burke The Apo Artar will just make it. Their image circles are not much more in diameter than the focal length. If the Apo Nikor is a process lens it will be about the same. If its a Tessar type or Plasmat it should have more coverage. Beware that Korona and Graflex type banquet holders may not be compatible. The position of the lock ridge is different. For holder repair check with: Alan Brubaker awbent@cosmoaccess.net AWB Enterprises 33320 Gafford Road Wildomar, California 92595 Tel/Fax: (909) 674-0466 I have no personal experience but other denizens of the LF group seem to think he's good. --- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA. dickburk@ix.netcom.com

From: bg174@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Michael Gudzinowicz) Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format Subject: Re: Korona 7x17 info needed Date: 22 Jun 2002 "J Burke" burkeboyz@peoplepc.com wrote: > Ran across a Korona 7x17 Banquet camera with good bellows, ext rail, 1 film > holder (clean camera actually) priced at $700 complete w lensboard, Is it > worth the money????????? Not an Ebay item but rather sitting on a shelf for > sale and owner wants to move it. > No lens but I have a 480 mm APO Nikkor in a Copal 3 for 8x10(will it cover > the format?) -- The 480 mm f/9 Nikon Apo-Nikkor specs indicate coverage of 46 degrees, or 407 mm. The 7x17 format with allowance for film edges requires a minimum of 460 mm to cover. I'd suggest that you try it stopped down and see if the barrel vignettes. If it doesn't. it should work since the demands of contact printing aren't as great as enlarging. For closer work such as portraits, it should cover. Here's a list of "modern" 7x17 lenses, and there are probably more which will work. FL f/# Manufacturer & Model E/G Shtr YR IC DEG 7X17 Rise mm mm Shift (in) 84 22 Wisner Hypergon 2/2 n.a. 98 462 140 0.1; 0.2 200 6.8 Rodenstock Grandagon 8/4 3 91 494 102 0.7; 1.6 200 6.8 Rodenstock Grandagon N 8/4 3 98 494 102 0.7; 1.6 210 8 Schneider Super Angulon 6/4 1, 3 56-98 501 100 0.9; 1.8 250 6.3 Kodak Wide Field Ektar 4/4 n.a. 53 460 85 0.0; 0.1 270 6.8 Kyvyx APO-Kyvytar n.a. 3 80 589 95 2.7; 4.6 273 6.8 Goerz Dagor 6/2 n.a. 53 518 87 1.2; 2.4 300 6.8 Schneider Symmar 6/2 n.a. 53 503 80 0.9; 1.9 300 5.6 Rodenstock APO Sironar 7/5 3 91 486 78 0.6; 1.2 300 5.6 Rodenstock APO Sironar W 7/5 3 98 486 78 0.6; 1.2 300 5.6 Sinar Sinaron WS n.a. 3 91 486 78 0.6; 1.2 305 6.8 Goerz Dagor 6/2 n.a. 53 579 87 2.5; 4.4 305 9 Computar F9 6/4 3 84 485 77 0.6; 1.2 355 7.7 Goerz Dagor 6/2 n.a. 53 674 87 4.5; 6.9 355 9 Schneider Graphic Claron 6/2 n.a. 68 479 68 0.4; 1.0 360 6.8 Schneider Symmar 6/2 n.a. 53 604 80 3.0; 5.1 360 9 Kyvyx APO-Kyvytar n.a. 3 80 523 72 1.4; 2.6 360 6.8 Calumet Caltar SII n.a. n.a. 76 504 70 1.0; 1.9 360 10 Fujinon AS 6/4 1 84 504 70 1.0; 1.9 360 5.6 Schneider Symmar 6/4 n.a. 56-76 504 70 1.0; 1.9 360 5.6 Nikkor W 6/4 3 91-98 495 69 0.8; 1.6 360 6.8 Schneider APO Symmar 6/4 3 91-98 495 69 0.8; 1.6 360 6.8 Schneider Symmar S 6/4 3 86 495 69 0.8; 1.6 360 6.8 Schneider Symmar S MC 6/4 3 84 495 69 0.8; 1.6 360 6.5 Fujinon CM-W 6/6 3 98 486 68 0.6; 1.2 360 6.3 Fujinon NWS 6/6 n.a. 86 486 68 0.6; 1.2 360 6.3 Fujinon W 6/4 3 76-98 486 68 0.6; 1.2 360 6.8 Rodenstock APO Sironar S 6/4 3 98 468 66 0.2; 0.5 375 6.3 Calumet Caltar n.a. n.a. 76 469 64 0.2; 0.5 420 7.7 Goerz Dagor 6/2 n.a. 53 797 87 6.9; 9.9 420 5.6 Fujinon FS 3/3 3 84 505 62 1.0; 2.0 420 5.6 Fujinon SFS 3/3 3 86 505 62 1.0; 2.0 420 4.5 Schneider Xenar 4/3 n.a. 56 505 62 1.0; 2.0 450 8 Fujinon CM-W 6/6 3 98 520 60 1.3; 2.5 450 8.5 Fujinon C 4/4 1 98 489 57 0.6; 1.4 450 8.5 Fujinon CS 4/4 1 86 489 57 0.6; 1.4 480 7.7 Goerz Dagor 6/2 n.a. 53 911 87 2 9.2; 12.5 480 9 Kyvyx APO-Kyvytar n.a. 3 80 697 72 4.9; 7.5 480 4.5 Schneider Xenar 4/3 n.a. 56 577 62 2.5; 4.3 480 8 Goerz Gotar 4/4 n.a. 53 510 56 1.1; 2.2 480 8.4 Rodenstock APO Sironar N 6/4 3 98 500 55 0.9; 1.8 480 8.4 Rodenstock Sironar N 6/4 3 91 500 55 0.9; 1.8 480 8 Schneider APO Symmar 6/4 3 91-98 500 55 0.9; 1.8 480 6.8 Schneider Symmar S 6/4 3 86 500 55 0.9; 1.8 480 6.8 Schneider Symmar S MC 6/4 3 84 500 55 0.9; 1.8 480 9 Sinar Sinaron S n.a. 3 91 479 53 0.4; 1.0 508 6.3 Ilex Acutar 4/3 n.a. 76 563 58 2.2; 3.9 508 4.5 Zeiss Tessar 4/3 n.a. 53 552 57 2.0; 3.5 600 11.5 Fujinon C 4/4 3 98 625 55 3.5; 5.6 600 11.5 Fujinon CS 4/4 3 86 625 55 3.5; 5.6 600 11.5 Docter Apo-Germinar 6/6 3 97 497 45 0.8; 1.7 600 9 Jenoptik Apo-Germinar 6/6 n.a. 56 497 45 0.8; 1.7 600 9 Rodenstock Apo Ronar 4/4 3 56 497 45 0.8; 1.7 600 9 Sinar APO Sinaron DBM n.a. n.a. 91 497 45 0.8; 1.7 600 9 Voigtlander Apo-Skopar 5/3 n.a. 56 497 45 0.8; 1.7 600 9 Jenoptik Apo-T 4/3 n.a. 56 473 43 0.3; 0.7 610 6.3 Zeiss Tessar 4/3 n.a. 53 662 57 4.2; 6.6 610 10 Goerz Gotar 4/4 n.a. 53 649 56 3.9; 6.3 610 11 Goerz APO Artar 4/4 n.a. 53 518 46 1.2; 2.4 610 11 Goerz Red Dot Artar 4/4 n.a. 56 518 46 1.2; 2.4 610 9 Nikon Apo-Nikkor 4/4 n.a. 68 518 46 1.2; 2.4 610 9 Schneider Repro-Claron 4/4 n.a. 56 518 46 1.2; 2.4 610 9 Rank Apotal 4/3 n.a. 56 505 45 1.0; 2.0 650 9 Voigtlander Apo-Skopar n.a. n.a. 53 538 45 1.7; 3.1 750 14.5 Docter Apo-Germinar 6/6 3 97 621 45 3.4; 5.5 750 9 Jenoptik Apo-Germinar 6/6 n.a. 56 621 45 3.4; 5.5 750 9 Jenoptik Apo-T 4/3 n.a. 56 591 43 2.8; 4.7 760 11 Nikon Apo-Nikkor 4/4 n.a. 68 645 46 3.9; 6.2 762 12.5 Goerz APO Artar 4/4 n.a. 53 647 46 3.9; 6.2 762 12.5 Goerz Red Dot Artar 4/4 n.a. 56 585 42 2.6; 4.5 762 9 Rank Apotal 4/3 n.a. 56 585 42 2.6; 4.5 762 10 Wray Apo-Process Lustrar 4/4 n.a. 56 495 36 0.8; 1.6 800 9 Rodenstock APO Ronar S 6/4 3 56 614 42 3.2; 5.3 800 11 Schneider APO Tele Xenar HM 5/5 3 98 504 35 1.0; 1.9 890 12.5 Goerz APO Artar 4/4 n.a. 53 756 46 6.1; 8.9 890 12.5 Goerz Red Dot Artar 4/4 n.a. 56 648 40 3.9; 6.2 900 9 Jenoptik Apo-Germinar 6/6 n.a. 56 746 45 5.9; 8.7 900 9 Jenoptik Apo-T 4/3 n.a. 56 709 43 5.2; 7.8 914 10 Wray Apo-Process Lustrar 4/4 n.a. 56 594 36 2.8; 4.8 965 4.5 Fujinon Fujinon 6/3 n.a. 56 780 44 6.6; 9.5 1000 19.5 Docter Apo-Germinar 6/6 3 97 828 45 7.6; 10.6 1067 14 Goerz APO Artar 4/4 n.a. 53 906 46 1 9.1; 12.4 1067 14 Goerz Red Dot Artar 4/4 n.a. 56 777 40 6.5; 9.4 1067 10 Wray Apo-Process Lustrar 4/4 n.a. 56 693 36 4.8; 7.4 1200 15 Goerz APO Artar 4/4 n.a. 53 1019 46 5 11.4; 14.9 1200 11 Jenoptik Apo-Germinar 6/6 n.a. 56 994 45 9 10.9; 14.3 1200 15 Goerz Red Dot Artar 4/4 n.a. 56 826 38 7.5; 10.6 1200 10 Wray Apo-Process Lustrar 4/4 n.a. 56 793 36 6.9; 9.8 1600 10 Wray Apo-Process Lustrar 4/4 n.a. 56 1040 36 9 11.8; 15.3 1780 16 Goerz APO Artar 4/4 n.a. 53 1511 46 6 21.2; 25.2 1780 16 Goerz Red Dot Artar 4/4 n.a. 56 1122 35 6 13.5; 17.1

From russian camera mailing list: From: marco@pauck.de To: russiancamera-user@beststuff.com Subject: Re: [Russiancamera] Soviet Panoramic Cameras Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 "E. T. Kiska" Seymour@hotmail.com schrieb > Most of the discussion here has been on the Soviet .Contax and Leica clones. > > What has been people's experience with the Soviet panoramic cameras? Does > anyone have information about the long-rumoured 120 version of the Horizont? Check my pages about the FT-2 and the Horizon 202: http://www.pauck.de/marco/photo/panorama/ft-2/ft-2.html http://www.pauck.de/marco/photo/panorama/horizon202/horizon202.html The Horizon 205PC (120 format) seems to have left its long prototype phase. However, I'm not convinced that it can compete with the Noblexes as it is in almost the same price range. IMHO it's more a collector's item (similar to the Kiev 90). Marco

From russian camera mailing list: Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 Subject: Re: [Russiancamera] Soviet Panoramic Cameras From: Bob Shell bob@bobshell.com E. T. Kiska at Seymour@hotmail.com wrote: > What has been people's experience with the Soviet panoramic cameras? Does > anyone have information about the long-rumoured 120 version of the Horizont? The only one I have had in my hands jammed before I got a single shot out of it. The 35mm version, on the other hand, is pretty good. I've had one for about seven years and it still works perfectly. Bob

From hasselblad mailing list: Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 From: Jeff Grant jeff.grant@pobox.com Subject: RE: [HUG] Heresy: Xpan full frame enlargement questions I have had a number of 30" enlargements made from full frame shots taken on a 45mm lense. At 30" there is no sign of softening. The shots in question are here: http://www.photo.net/photodb/folder?folder_id=164497 Jeff

From: "Sven Hafner" mail@zone7.de Newsgroups: aus.photo,rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Subject: Re: Looking for classic panorama friends Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 Hi Gordon ! thanks for feedback: I would call an image a panorama when it is a) produced with a panorama camera (noblex,xpan,...) "What you photographed is what you print" or b) is made by the photographer with a "normal" camera, but with the intention to make a panorama Even like the Indian Image in the guest area. My personal opinion: I don't like working like this "Hmmm the image is crap, but I can use the middle part as panorama." or making a dozen images at the backside of you campingsite and "Lets try to build a panorama...". regards Sven "Gordon Moat" moat@attglobal.net schrieb > Nice images. I noticed one image of a temple in India, over three > frames, which was very nicely done. You mentioned not wanting stitched > images, though this one is consecutive frames. Would consecutive frames, > as possible from a panorama head, be sufficient for submission? > > Also, is it necessary to only use a dedicated panorama camera, or do > cropped shots get consideration? There are many ways to get panorama > format images, including some tricks with shift lenses, and not merely > digital stitching. > > I hope you stick with the B/W shots for quite a while. They have a very > classic look to them, and I think work better over the internet. Colour > images tend to be at the mercy of the end user, whose monitor many be > off enough to show green, or orange, people (like some televisions). > Much tougher to be off on B/W over the internet. > > Best of luck for the future. I hope the site lasts a long time. > > Ciao! > > Gordon Moat > Alliance Graphique Studio > http://www.allgstudio.com/gallery.html > Sven Hafner wrote: > > > oops, I forgot the website's address: > > sorry. > > > > www.panorama-gallery.com > > > > regards > > Sven Hafner

From panoramic mailing list: Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 From: Ted Baker ted@ldeo.columbia.edu Subject: Re: Projecting Xpan Images > Anybody here project Xpan slides? I can know which > projector to use. You need a 6x7 projector due to the long dimension of the XPan panoramic frame, which is the same size as the 35mm Noblex frame & the 35mm panoramic adaptor for the (normally 6x7) Mamiya 67 II. I'm aware of only 2 brands of 6x7 projectors currently being sold: Pro Cabin and Goetschmann. Mamiya sells both of them & you can see them at: http://www.mamiya.com/products.asp?id=1&id2;=174 As you might imagine, they do not come cheap. I bought a Pro Cabin projector last year during a Mamiya promo sale & got it for a bit under $1100. It's very solid, will outlast me for sure & I have been very pleased with it. I got it with the 150mm lens, which works fine unless you have a very long room or a small screen, in which case the 200mm lens might suit better. It's a manual projector & comes with only a 100mm-wide drop-in slot, so I also bought the #601-421 6x7cm carrier as well. It's still manual, of course, but far easier to use. This carrier takes slide mounts that are 85mm square. Regarding the Goetschmann projectors, as I recall they cost somewhere north of $2K and (I'm told) very well made. They have a wide variety of lenses available. Mounts for XPan transparencies are available from: TSS Photo, part#35mhn (in white) or #35mhnB (in black) at: http://www.tssphoto.com/sp/35mhn.html I have used lots of these cardboard glassless foldover mounts & have been very pleased with them with only 1 exception: for reasons unknown to me they are 3.5" square after mounting & thus must be trimmed down to 85mm square to fit the 6x7cm carrier on the Pro Cabin projector. I use a standard guillotine in my office that cuts the mounts well. These mounts are reasonably priced. Gepe, part#2702 at: http://www.keytechnology.ch/gepe/fs_productlist.asp?Country=181&Language;=1 These are high-end plastic mounts with glass & cost me about $23 for a box of 10 mounts. I haven't tried them yet but they at least are already 85mm square. Mamiya also makes cardboard glassless foldover mounts for the Pro Cabin projector. I bought a box of them last year but at the moment I can't find the part#. In any case, the mounts are a strange 80mm x 100mm after mounting & that size is suitable only for use in the Pro Cabin projector when using the drop in slot. You also can't use them for verticals in that format. Most folks have never seen a panoramic slide projected & I found that in the 2 slide shows that I've given with XPan slides that the reaction of the viewers is quite positive. It seems to take most of them a longer to process the images than with normal format 35mm slides & thus I suggest showing fewer slides than you otherwise might. Regards, Ted

from panoramic mailing list: Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 From: Gary aots37@dsl.pipex.com Subject: RE: Xpan Image management A company call Javerette in the UK make black card mounts (and sleeves) for XPan format. I think these mounts are compatible with several other display and filing systems (Kenro and Panodia) so you can display shots on a variety of formats in a single system. http://www.photosleeves.com/productsp3.htm Gary

From: "Al Denelsbeck" AL@wading-in.net Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.35mm Subject: Re: Stitching photos together Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 Patrick L. oijg@fouf.com wrote... > While driving home I noticed in the sky a chemtrial from a rocket > launch. It was very pretty and since it was getting dark, the sun, > although hidden by clouds and mountains (mountains not in camera view, > but below clouds), there was enough sunlight setting behind the > clouds and mountains to illuminate the chemtrails. I didn't have my > camera with me, but I lived only two blocks away, so I raced home to > get the camera, and back to the field where I first noticed the > chemtrail, and where I would have a unobtrusive view of it. I knew > that I had only about ten minutes or so to get the camera, or the > chemtrial would fade due to the wind and the disappearing sun. > > http://www.choozart.com/ch-trails.jpg THAT'S... pretty damn cool! > Unfortunately, I not only forgot my tripod, my camera bag had only the > worst of my two zoom lenses, the (Canon) kit 28-80. Oh well, I got > the shot. But 28mm wasn't wide enough to get the entire trail, so I > took two shots hoping to stitch them together. I didn't have a > tripod, but held the camera as steady as I could on the top of my car. > I put it on program mode, I just wanted to get the shot, since I > didn't have much time. I do recall the shutter speed at about a > second and a half, forgot what the aperture was, though. I took > several shots, knowing that, without a tripod, most were bound to be > way out of focus, except these two (for the most part), which were > also stitchable, thank goodness. > > Anyway, here is the question: > > Can PhotoShop fix the color difference between the two photos I'm > trying to stitch? If so, how can I do this? Yes it can. This question might be better asked on the Photoshop newgroups (like alt.graphics.Photoshop). Be careful on those groups - graphics people have issues, and the main one is being asked to do things for free. Be ready for some flak. But there's a couple of stumbling blocks. First, the primary color in the photo is black. Doesn't give you much to compare Levels with and try to correct from there. Second, part of the problem in matching is the light falloff of the lens, where it darkens the sides of the photos. You'll have to correct this first in order to get a good match. But once your light levels are even across both photos, you can take a color sample from matching portions of the trail on either side of your seam, and the difference in RGB values should be the adjustment you'd have to make. If you like, I could take a shot at this for you. Send the two separate files to Al@wading-in.net (don't worry about the size, I have broadband) and I'll see what I can do. Or set up an FTP site and e-mail me the link. Really fascinating shot! I think I would have freaked out if I saw this in the sky. - Al.

From panoramic mailing list: Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 From: Edward Meyers aghalide@panix.com Subject: Re: Noblex repairs Try NIPPON Repair at 920 Broadway in New York City. They were the official widelux repair people. I think they also took over Noblex repair. If not ask Noblex. Ed John Tice wrote: > Can anyone point me to a qualified Noblex repair facility with access > to parts as necessary? I have a 135U, new but no warranty, that needs > to be repaired and will likely need parts. I would prefer a US shop > but am willing to do what it takes to get it working. Anyone know any > talented technicians? Thank you in advance for responses.

from panoramic mailing list: Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 From: Edward Meyers aghalide@panix.com Subject: Re: Noblex repairs Sorry, Professional Camera Repair is out of business. Ed Robert Feinman wrote: > Professional Camera Repair on 47th Street in NYC fixed mine. > Took about a month though. > Why not send back to importer

From contax mailing list: From: Jimkeller@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 To: contax@photo.cis.to Subject: [Contax] How video chips deal with wells/ and the real issue re:falloff A video producer friend of mine once described a sort of lenticular screen (not the projection type) which is laid over the chip. Each sensor has it's own tiny lens to concentrate the area surrounding the well aperture into it. Obviously alignment is an critical with this sort of thing. Incidentally, the ratio of diameter to depth of the well is the real isue with regard to sensitivity falloff with angle. The high resolution chip from Kodak may have such a steep falloff only because of the size of the openings. With a large diameter sensor, a greater percentage of the 'floor' will be exposed at a given angle (assuming the depth is the same). I am just speculating here. As an aside, a friend of mine in Texas has designed a rotating digital panoramic camera (e-pan which you can see at sealestudios.com). I think it uses a 1" in line sensor (one row each of RGB) with a 14mm Sigma wide angle lens (nikon mount). It seems to have no problem with falloff at the ends of the sensor (corresponding with the top and bottom of the resultant image). - Jim

From panoramic mailing list: Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 From: nick blackburn nick_blackburn@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Stitching Gary MGI Photovista is good, and cheap. Nick

Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 From: Paul Holman panoramic@holman.compulink.co.uk To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Stitching Gary, Have a look at The Panorama Factory. http://www.panoramafactory.com/ It works very well and is pretty easy to use, the early version is even available as freeware although the latest version is pretty cheap anyway. If you'd like to see some results from it have a look at www.cix.co.uk/~holman/vr1.htm all of the VRs there have been stiched with The Panorama Factory as have a few other panoramas on my web site. Hope this helps Paul Holman

Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 From: Bill Barton wbill@bellatlantic.net To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Noblex website This is the address I use ????? http://www.kamera-werk-dresden.de/index_eng.htm

Date: 16 Sep 2002 From: Kendall Pinion kendallphoto@worldnet.att.net To: panoptic panoptic@coollist.com Subject: Re:Scanning panoramic negatives I have an EPSON EXPRESSION 1680 that has a transparancy adapter that takes negatives up to 8-1/2 by 11. I am successfully scanning 10-inch Cirkut negatives in 8-inch increments and stictching them in PS-6. Scanning prints that size produces remarkable results. http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/index.jsp Under products, click "scanners" Scroll down to the bottom of the page under Professional Click Expression 1680 Professional Kendall Pinion Capitol Photo Service (since 1920) http://www.cappphoto.com

Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 From: Robert Feinman rdf@virtualdba.com To: panorama list panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Photo Albums Several months ago I asked if anyone had ideas for panoramic photo albums, but didn't get any replies so I'd like to share my current solution. I print most of my panoramas as 13x5 inches (approx) since my printer takes 13inch wide paper. Occasionally I print one sideways and thus can go as large as 13x40, but the image really needs to be special for this. What I found is a line of albums made by Itoya call "Art Portfolio". These are available in 8 1/2x11, 9x12,11x14,11x17 and 14x17 inches. They have 24 plastic sleeves with black paper and a black plastic coated binding. The are inexpensive. The 11x14 one is $7-12US depending on where you get it. So I mount one 13x5 image on each side of an 11x14 page. (You can mount two, one above the other if you wish). This gives a small margin at the sides and a larger one top and bottom. To hold the images in place I use Scotch #1097 repositionable glue tape. This is a double sided tissue paper tape that gets dispensed from a small hand-held holder. A small strip on each short edge is enough to keep the pictures from sliding around and I can always remove the images if I wish to modify the album or frame them. The only down sides to this setup are that the album has to be turned sideways to view and that the page proportions are not ideal. -- Robert D Feinman robertdfeinman@netscape.net Landscapes, Cityscapes, Panoramic Photographs: http://robertdfeinman.com

Date: 16 Sep 2002 From: Michael O'Neill mfophoto@hotmail.com To: panoptic panoptic@coollist.com Subject: Re:Scanning panoramic negatives I have an epson 2450 photo scanner and it does a great job scanning strips of 120 negs and chromes, especially if you have photoshop 6 or 7 and can work with a 16bit file. The optical resoultion is 2400 dpi and the scanner costs about $400. I frequently scan images for publication with it and couldn't be happier with the results. Michael

From camera makers mailing list: Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 From: Alan Zinn azinn@netbox.com Subject: Re: [Cameramakers] 120 pano camera ... The Kodak Panoram is just two 1/4 in. thick half disks of varnished wood with simple metal retainers. http://www.panoramacamera.us/kodak-1.jpg The top is the same as the bottom. There are 1/8 in. roller at each end and that is all - sweet! AZ Maker of Lookaround panoramic camera. http://www.panoramacamera.us

Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 From: gewinnspiel1@plueckhahn.de To: Panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: NEWS! - German company announces stereoscopic pano cam if you are looking for details on the stereo pano cam announcement from the current Photokina look here: http://www.dr-clauss.de/ Carsten

From: zorzim@aol.com (ZorziM) Newsgroups: rec.photo.misc Date: 05 Oct 2002 Subject: Re: Widelux F7 Question swedolsen@hotmail.com (Glenn Olsen) writes: >Hello panoramic shooters. My Wdelux came without instructions and I >find that when I look through the viewfinder wearing my glasses, the >image is out of focus. It is OK when I take off my glasses however. >My questions: > >1. Is this normal? Do you use a different eye location (farther back) >when shooting with this camera? > >2. Is it possible that there is a correcting lens installed in the >viewfinder? Never noticed that! I just looked through my viewfinder and, indeed, I can see better through it without my glasses. Seems that the finder requires the eye to focus somewhat closely - I can't quite focus on the image through the upper part of my bifocals, but I can through the lower part. Unless the image in the viewfinder is severely out of focus, i guess it's normal. That viewfinder, BTW, only gives you a rough idea of what the image will look like. The incised lines on the camera top give you a better idea of the lens coverage.

Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 From: Clayton Tume tume@world-net.co.nz To: SPuckitt@historysanjose.org Cc: Panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: giant panorama Hi Sarah this is a reply to your query about large historical panoramas, the photo below explains most of it. As you can see the panorama is 40 feet long and was made for the World Fair 1904 in St.Louis. It was enlarged from six 8"x10" negatives, an exposure for each onto one long length of photo paper, the joins were carefully blended by artists after processing was completed. The enlargement and processing operations were done outdoors at night. The 19"x96" panorama you refer to could possibly have been made without enlarging as cameras capable of producing a negative this size were indeed made. Information on them is very difficult to find, if you have a look at my website here www.bigshotz.co.nz/panorama_photographers.html you'll find some info that I've been gathering on the subject. kind regards Clayton Tume ----original message--- Hello Fellow Panoramaist! Here's a good one for you today.....this lady has written to me (below letter) asking if I could tell her how she could have a panorama photo from the 30's that is 19" X 8 feet long? I am no history major that is for sure....Maybe one of you can help her. Please email to her directly and copy the panorama list so that we may all share in the answer. Thanks you....Hope to see you all at the IAPP convention next week. My best, George S. Pearl, QPP > hello- > I am trying to understand how such a large photo was made. We have a photo > in our collection c.1930. Do you know anything about how panoramic > enlargements were made? I've been researching the cameras, and it seems that > they didnt manufacture cameras this large. > > History San Jose has an exhibit opening next week which will display this > photo and I'm trying to get information to pass on to photography students. > > Thanks- > Sarah Puckitt > Visual Resources Manager

Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 From: Godfrey DiGiorgi ramarren@bayarea.net To: hasselblad@kelvin.net Subject: Re: [HUG] Scanning Xpan 35mm Negatives Yes, the 2450 will handle this very easily. I don't think the Epson TWAIN software will do it, but I drive this scanner with VueScan http://www.hamrick.com/ which allows any arbitary size negative that fits within the 4x9" transparency scanner's space. Godfrey Steve Baker wrote: > Can anyone guide me as to whether the Epson 2450 or something similarly > priced will scan 35mm negatives for the Xpan? Also-any USA pro labs > out

Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 From: Manu Schnetzler marsu@earthling.net To: hasselblad@kelvin.net Subject: Re: [HUG] Scanning Xpan 35mm Negatives Actually, Epson TWAIN doesn't have any problem with arbitrary size. I've scanned xpan negs with it with good results (such as http://www.schnetzler.com/PAW/week_39.html). The only problem I see is a bit of vignetting but that's a due to a lack of center filter on the camera, not to the scanner. Manu

Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 From: Jim Brick jbrick@elesys.net To: hasselblad@kelvin.net, hasselblad@kelvin.net Subject: Re: [HUG] Scanning Xpan 35mm Negatives Manu Schnetzler wrote: >Actually, Epson TWAIN doesn't have any problem with arbitrary size. I've >scanned xpan negs with it with good results (such as >http://www.schnetzler.com/PAW/week_39.html). > >The only problem I see is a bit of vignetting but that's a due to a lack >of center filter on the camera, not to the scanner. > >Manu Over the years, some of my best (and most sold) photographs are those taken with a very wide angle lens and no center filter. The edge darkening quite often (most often for me) enhances the photograph, especially when printed 20x24 or 30x40. You don't really notice the drop off around the edges but it really helps to keep your eyes focused within the image rather than having them run off the edge of the print. You Xpan photograph (very nice photograph) falls into this category in my view. The drop off is good. :-) Jim

Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 From: Marco Pauck marco@pauck.de To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Chinese PANFLEX T120 Does anyone have experiences with this beast? http://www.phepan.com/web/homepage_e.htm Marco

[Ed. note: probably long sold by the time you read this, but here for model # and price info on the fuji XPAN version] From: bordocom@aol.com (BORDOCOM) Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace Date: 05 Nov 2002 Subject: FS: Fuji TX-1 Pano Camera with 45mm Lens FS: Fuji TX-1 Pano Camera w/45mm Lens Like new $1200

Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 From: Mehrdad Sadat msadat@yahoo.com To: hasselblad@kelvin.net Subject: [HUG] new xpan body does anybody have any info on the new xpan2?? xpan as now seems to be discontinued Thanks, Mehrdad

Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 From: Robert Feinman rdf@sunny.virtualdba.com To: panorama list panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Using Voightlander 12mm for panoramas I just had a close look at the 12mm lens for the Voightlander Bessa. Comparing it to my 35mm Noblex it appears that the horizontal field is just about the same (120 degrees). This leads to the interesting question as to whether this is a viable alternative to a dedicated camera. The pluses: 1. Rectilinear lens, no swing lens distortion. 2. BIgger vertical field of view, allows cropping after the fact. 3. Shutter speeds down to time exposures. My Noblex has longest of 1/30. 4. No "smiles" or "frowns" when camera is tilted, just trapazoids. The minuses: 1. Negative size is 1/2 of Noblex once film is cropped to 1:3 size. 2. Lens has hotspot in center. Very cumbersome to use a center filter. You need the 77mm lens adaptor and a 77mm center filter (expensive!) and you lose about 2 stops. 3. Lens is only f5.6. Focus by guess. Has anyone tried this for panoramas? How have you found the quality? -- Robert D Feinman robertdfeinman@netscape.net

Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 From: ralph fuerbringer rof@mac.com To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Using Voightlander 12mm for panoramas i have a camera, the vistashift-612, an update on the brooks veriwide that uses the 35,45,55apo-grandagons on 612. with the 35apo it is slightly wider than the 12 voight on 35, has an optional max panoramic shift, interchangeable backs including polaroid 545 centered! i have a software program, photo parade that show some 612's including a couple comparison shots with the noblex 35. this has about same horizontal, 1/2 the height and architectural rending problems evident in the comarison shots. problems. I have the 12 too which is an ok lens but 5.6 and retrofocus. the 35mm apo is f4.5 and incredible. if anyone would like to see vistashift-612 the comparisons to the noblex and other 612 pics wwith the 35apo the parade program works like this: you send me your email, i send the photoparade to the software maker . they send you a notice to pick it, along with the free software to play it. the software maker also has a $10 email program where instead of an attachment another computer may not be able to open, the pic already open is picked up the same way. both these software programs are a bargain i find very useful.

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 From: John Brownlow john@pinkheadedbug.com To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Roundshot 28/220 Anyone else here using one of these? I just got mine. Am still shooting tests but the build quality is terrific and the general ergonomics excellent. It's much smaller than I expected. You can check out the kind of thing I intend to shoot with it here (these pictures are all stitched using PTMac) - as you'll see it's mainly people on the streets. http://www.pinkheadedbug.com/wip -- John Brownlow

From: foto28@aol.comnospam (Foto28) Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Date: 26 Nov 2002 Subject: Re: Looking to buy.. 6x17 You might be interested in the updated review that covers both Linhof and Fuji 617 cameras, which I posted yesterday to my website: www.dannyburk.com Go to "Reviews" and then to Linhof/Fuji 617. Regards, Danny =============== Danny Burk www.dannyburk.com - fine art photography

From: bud@bud.com (John) Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format Subject: Panoramic Shots on 5x4 Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 I was trying to decide if I should purchase either a 6x12 back for my Horseman or lash out on panoramic camera for a recent series of assignments for a client, I did some tests and hired a Fuji 6x17 - not my cup of tea, difficult to use. Into the darkroom, a scalpel an old 4x5 film sheath, 2x5 modification to insert, the results using a 75mm Grandagon are fantastic and I get all the movements - it is cheap to make the modification yourself or you can buy a "Bender" or "Toho" (not Toya) kit yourself. Shooting ratio is 1:2.5 so it is better than 6x12 (ratio 1:2) and looks better than 6x17 (ratio 1:2.83) Getting four panoramic shots from each film holder and they scan in superbly using my 2450 - thats because the customer wants digital shots - I will not be telling him how I got such superb results. BUD UK

Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 From: ralph fuerbringer rof@mac.com To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Horizon 202 film developing in NYC? best price for trans is flatiron on 18th st. best color neg is carol color also 18th st . they are a block apart. manhattan. Jockdeboer@aol.com wrote: > Where can I get my Horizon 202 35 MM film developed in NYC? Does > anyone know? I recently moved to Brooklyn and work in Manhattan. > Thanks, Jock

Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 From: "Thomas B. Kunz" tbk@tbk.de To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: New Panoweaver 3.0 will be released soon Dear Group, please visit soon www.easypano.com and see the famous new Panoweaver 3.0 from Panorama Technologies Corporation Ltd. (This will be a cold winter for IPIX) friendly Thomas What's new in Easypano Panoweaver 3.0? [ Legend: ] [ + Added feature ] [ * Improved/changed feature ] [ - Bug fixed (we hope) ] [+]3 fisheye images stitching [+]Manual stitching for 2 or 3 fisheye images, allowing users to define the center and radius of the fisheye image [+]Remapping single fisheye image and publish single fisheye image panorama [+]Conversion between spherical and cubic panoramic image [+]Viewing stitching line when manual stitching [+]Min/Max toggle for every fisheye image window and stitched image window [+]Pan, Tilt and FOV settings for QuickTime VR [+]QuickTime VR plug-in can be downloaded online automatically [+]It is not necessary to rotate fisheye image before stitching, just choose the kaidan pano head checkbox in the loading dialog [*]Friendly GUI for batch stitching [*]Better automatic stitching for 2 fisheye images [*]Cubic and Spherical edition are merged together [*]JRE is used to replace Microsoft JVM in Panoweaver application [*]Loading fisheye images made easier [*]Clearer output image dimension setting [*]Adjust JPEG quality when viewing the image quality visually [*]Output image size limitation is replaced by watermark in trial version [*]Registration info is shorter [-]Bug of failing in loading fisheye image from flash card reader is fixed [-]Publishing QuickTime VR in Spherical version [-]Publishing VRML in Spherical version [-]Anti-aliasing Version 2.4 (for Windows) March 30th, 2002 1.Batch stitching available in both cubic version; 2.Three kinds of interface style; 3.Garbage collection to free memory manual; ...

Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 From: SATO Hideaki ADS07416@nifty.com To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: RE: PICTURES FROM THE SURFACE OF THE EARTH Michel, It's a 6x17 camera made in Japan by TOMIYAMA. I think TOMIYAMA doesn't have website. Try following. This site use Japanese, however some part is written in English and you'll see photos of the camera. http://www.mediajoy.com/mjc/artpanorama/art_panorama.html Hideaki Sato 22-33 Mitsuzawanakacho, Kanagawaku

Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 From: John Brownlow john@pinkheadedbug.com To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: pano head recommendations On Wednesday, December 18, 2002, at 09:15 PM, ring-of-fire@onebox.com wrote: > 1. I've done a lot of panos with the noblex / xpan, however I'd like > to make some stitched shots with a 35mm camera. > 2. Any recommendations re: pano head for 35mm camera? I've noticed > that the Kaidan is made for vertical shooting; I know they have this > optional horizontal attachment. Is there anything simpler where one > can just shoot horizontally? The Kaidan is very good IMO. I've used it for almost every pan for the last year. I'm having a hard time imagining why you would want to shoot horizontally, but if you do, then it takes less than an hour to build a simple rig out of wood offcuts. All you need in your case is a square piece of wood with two holes in it, positioned so that when the camera is mounted through one hole the nodal point of the lens falls over the second hole. You attach a manfrotto base plate to hole #2 on the underside of the wood using a 1/4" bolt available at all hardware stores, and either mount the camera direct on the other hole or (what I did) attach a manfrotto quick release mount to the wood so the camera clips in and out easily. Er, that's it. You need 1 saw, 1 drill, some sandpaper, a few 1/4" bolts and nuts, and a couple of manfrotto bits. Having said that, I've been having fun with a Seitz roundshot rotational camera which will shoot 360s, 720s and anything you throw at it. It is very nice not to have to stitch! JB

From: sofjan@aol.com (Sofjan) Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.misc Date: 13 Dec 2002 Subject: Re: panoramic camera that's not 'swing lens'? If you want a panoramic camera that is not a swing lens. You definitely get into a regular camera that is cropped at the top and bottom frame. All of the non swing lens camera employ the cropped method. Hasselblad Xpan uses Medium format camera and then cropped it to make it fit the 35mm film. Xpan has 30mm 40mm and 90mm lens. A 40mm lens is very wide angle in medium format. but if you only take the central portion of the frame and make it fit the 35mm film it is 40mm in 35mm format which is about normal. Now if you let the horizontal side of the 35mm go all the way to the medium format coverage. you get a pseudo panoramic. because the resulting film has a horizontal that is wider than regular 35mm format. But if you look at the coverage carefully. Xpan 40mm in 35mm pano format has as much coverage as a 22-24mm 35mm lens. So yes it look like a panoramic but it is just a cropped film. The real genius is Hasselblad together with Fuji (Xpan is Fuji and Hasellblad joint venture) make the camera so you can take both regular 35mm and pseudo panoramic format by changing the film shade or size in the horizontal area not just cropped the top and bottom but lengthening the film format. That is really cool. Many other "expensive" non swing lens panoramic camera do that. Like linhof. Fuji and etc. Emphasis "Expensive" part. lens cost more than your pentax outfit What qualify swing lens camera as panoramic camera is the horizontal coverage. My Horizon 202 has a 28 mm lens and has almost the same coverage as my Voightlander 15mm heliar. My Noblex 135U is in the same too. Much much wider coverage in the horizontal area. So you can mount the widest lens you have on your camera shoot a picture. cropped the top and bottom called it panorama and be done with it or join the real panoramic camera and get one of those swing lens. BTW there is always a huge format war debating which is real panoramic camera the cropped type or the swing lens type. Many panoramic fanatic equate those cropped type as just like your pentax But i disagree . they all have its place. Any other question i'll be happy to help. SOFJAN MUSTOPOH

Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 00:36:38 +0100 From: Willem-Jan Markerink To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Konica 17mm, new Horizon & 6x24 swing lens Mentioned in last months FotoMagazin (German), a revival of the Konica 17mm disposal camer (oddly the press-release on their site was around PhotoKina time): http://www.konica.jp/global/press/020924_3e.html Two other PhotoKina releases have not received any significant media coverage yet either....a new Horizon S3-Pro, with a more curved body, and additional 1s shutter time (but not the 1/500s from the current 202 high-speed version it seems, same 1/250s as the normal model). Second highlight was a 6x24cm swing-lens camera, with 100mm lens from the EyeScan (neatly matching the format/lens-ratio's of the 6x12cm/50mm and 6x17cm/75mm Noblexi; it even seems as if one or more of the EyeScan designers used to work for Noble in the past). Seems already 50 have been sold to the USA, after the prototype was also requested by an USA dealer/customer, for a specific project/application (group photography?....Peter Seitz told me that was the largest market for their large-format Roundshots (70mm & 5"), Asian companies wanting pix of their entire workforce, hence being also the largest market for their continuous/panoramic film printer. -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink w.j.markerink@a1.nl [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]

Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 From: Willem-Jan Markerink w.j.markerink@a1.nl To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Adding the 4th dimension.... .....time: http://www.roundshot-labor.de/html/popup/pano03.htm Never thought about that effect actually....anyone knowing other samples? A vertical pano (urban/high-rise buildings) from late night into morning could create nice effects too....or vice versa. -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink w.j.markerink@a1.nl [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]

Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2003 From: Hermann Klecker panorama@klecker.de To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Adding the 4th dimension.... > .....time: > > http://www.roundshot-labor.de/html/popup/pano03.htm > > Never thought about that effect actually....anyone knowing other > samples? I know this is not of much help as I do not remember the URL to the image. However, once I saw a panroamic image of a large grup of people shot with a swing lens camera. One funny guy who placed himself at the very edge so that he was the first beeing pictured by the camera. Then the ran to the other end and was photographed again - on the same frame! On my own web site is a related photograph. (I am afraid, it is not panoramic at all) http://www.klecker.de/Detroit/bilder/skyline5d.jpg You see the Skyline of Detroit, Michigan, USA. The left part of the image was taken right before sunset (using a split field black filter) and the right part was taken 1 hour later. No Photoshop tricks at all. This is a color slide. Hmmm, one coment is useless and the other slightly off topic. However, I hope to contribute to that discussion. Regards Hermann

Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 From: Steven Morton steven.morton@spme.monash.edu.au To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Adding the 4th dimension.... Even though it is not new it can still be fun: http://www.spme.monash.edu.au/~smort/panorama/rotunda.html http://www.spme.monash.edu.au/~smort/panorama Cya Steve

Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 From: Michael Stoll lists@we-st.de To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: art panorama user's manual catau@gmx.net schrieb: > where i found subject thing ? www.panoguide.com, maybe .... Werder & Stoll. Design Consultants

Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 From: Jook Leung jook360@earthlink.net To: w.j.markerink@a1.nl Cc: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: VR in panorama-format (was: Adding the 4th dimension.... For displaying my QTVR's I use some HTML tags <<< color >< param >0000,0000,FFFF< /param > param < /color > name="scale" value="tofit" > <<< color >< param >0000,0000,FFFFembed height="90%" width="95%" > [ed. note: spaces added] that will allow the visitor to grab the corner of the VR window and resize the panorama in real time to any proportion that fits on your desktop...even across multiple monitors. try these: http://360vr.com/2003 http://360vr.com/wfc regards, Jook leung

Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 From: Willem-Jan Markerink w.j.markerink@a1.nl To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: VR in panorama-format (was: Adding the 4th dimension.... Jook Leung wrote: > For displaying my QTVR's I use some HTML tags > > > that will allow the visitor to grab the corner of the VR window and > resize the panorama in real time to any proportion that fits on your > desktop...even across multiple monitors. > > try these: http://360vr.com/2003 http://360vr.com/wfc Ah yes, much better! (although I could only do this (in Mozilla 1.0) by squeezing & pulling the entire browser window....couldn't get hold of the corners of the actual VR-frame itself....) However: the pulling of the image/objects on the far left and right gets a bit distractive/annoying....while a still-pan rolling over from left to right, like a moving video-camera, would not do that....no 1-dimensional magnification 'acceleration' on the sides, all stays 1:1.... -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink

From: bhilton665@aol.comedy (Bill Hilton) Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Date: 15 Feb 2003 Subject: Re: wide format photo printer? >From: "gb" wbegun@hotmail22.com >Any suggestions for printing wider than 13" on a hobby level budget(< $1K), >with similar to Epson 1280-level image quality? Epson 1520 or 3000? The 3000 is a very old workhorse with 11 picoliter ink drops (huge compared to the 1280). Best bet is the Epson 7600, which is 24" wide and produces exceptionally fine prints with long print life, but costs $3,000 (sorry). I was going to get one but couldn't clear out enough space in my office, and also the lab I use just dropped their prices on 20x24" LightJet prints to $25 if you pre-flight your files, so I decided to use the Epson 2200 for the small prints and send out for larger LightJet prints. If you have a good ICM color management flow you can use their LJ profiles (available for free download) to soft-proof in Photoshop and get a very good monitor-to-print match. Dunno about the 1520, sorry. Bill

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 From: Robert Feinman rdf@sunny.virtualdba.com To: panorama list panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Panorama photolabs The IAPP has agreed to update their web site ( http://panphoto.com ) with a list of photofinishers that provide panorama services. If you have any suggestions, I'll forward them. -- Robert D Feinman robertdfeinman@netscape.net Landscapes, Cityscapes, Panoramic Photographs: http://robertdfeinman.com

From: Sam.w1 [Sam.w1@cox.net] Sent: Fri 3/14/2003 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: RE: panoramic site Gary, Thanks for the Great Site for Old Pans. Best, Sam Welch -----Original Message----- From: gary r. beasley [mailto:grbeasley@cox.net] Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: panoramic site This has probably been posted before,but maybe everyone did not see it.This is a collection of thousands of older panoramic photos. If you are using Netscape for mail you can just click on the link, otherwise you can cut and paste. http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/pnhtml/pnhome.html Gary Beasley Chsrles Hulcher Co. inc. http://www.hulchercamera.com

From panoramic mailing list: From: Jook Leung [jook360@earthlink.net] Sent: Wed 3/19/2003 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: RE: Spherical Panoramas Hi, I use Helmut Dersch's Panorama Tools with PTMac http://kekus.com/gallery or PTGui http://www.ptgui.com ...

Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 05: To: Russiancamera-user russiancamera-user@mail.beststuff.com From: scoop scoopsmail@monmouth.com Subject: [Russiancamera] Save your kopeks.... It seems that the Horizon 205 medium format panoramic camera is available for sale now: http://www.rusgoods.ru/cgi/lira/view_product.cgi?database=optics&category;=12&productID;=40101000020⟨=Eng At $2299, it is difficult to see how this Horizon can compete with the Fuji 6x17cm fixed lens camera, which sells for about the same price, or the Noblex swing lens 120 format camera, which sells for quite a bit less money. Even allowing for the discounting which will inevitably occur as importers begin to bring them into the US, we might expect the going price to be about $1500, more or less the discounted price of the Noblex. The 35mm versions of the Horizon are quite decent cameras, available for as low as $150 for the used older "Horizont" model or $230 or so for the Horizon 202 (when Mike Fourman is having a sale - this is for new camera with a warranty). I use a 202 myself and given the price of the 205, will continue to use 35mm for quite some time ($2295 buy a lot of Plus-X).

Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 To: Russiancamera-user russiancamera-user@mail.beststuff.com From: scoop scoopsmail@monmouth.com Subject: [Russiancamera] For a few kopeks less I see that: www.kalinkaoptics.com is importing the Horizon 205 to the US and offering it for $2199. Some detail on the camera is available on that website.

From: John Brownlow [john@pinkheadedbug.com] Sent: Wed 4/9/2003 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Latest comparison of swinglens to 12mm I shoot 360 panos with a 15mm full-frame fisheye The images are stitched using PTmac (www.kekus.com) When stitched they are remapped to a cylindrical projection The distortion is not an issue, since both rectilinear and fisheye lenses are equally 'distorted' with respect to a cylindrical projection. A swing lens on a curved film plane is much closer to a cylindrical projection and therefore needs less morphing to stitch. Some examples here: http://www.pinkheadedbug.com/wip/360 Robert D Feinman wrote: > Well it would be interesting to hear what some of those shooting > 360s with 8mm fisheye lenses think about perspective distortion.

From: Hill, Michael D. (NASWI) [HillM@naswi.navy.mil] Sent: Mon 4/14/2003 To: 'panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au' Subject: RE: fisheye & rectilinear lenses for stitched pans >I'm beginning to think that I need to use the Roundshot in a radically different way, maybe handheld or moving around. That's a technique Alan Zinn uses with the Lookaround. http://www.keva.com/lookaround/looksut2.html

From LUG Leica user group: Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 From: John Brownlow john@johnbrownlow.com Subject: Re: [LUGforum] Optics question I used shareware There are two packages, one for mac and one for windows, that are essentially identical mac: http://www.kekus.com (PTMac) win: http://www.ptgui.com (PTgui) I use them both. They're dead cheap and piggyback off the free panotools suite by Helmut Dersch. Javier Perez wrote: > Was curious > What kind of software did you use to meld the images > together without seams or distortion induced > discontinuities? Is it freeware by any chance? > Javier - -- John Brownlow

From: John Brownlow [john@pinkheadedbug.com] Sent: Mon 4/14/2003 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: fisheye & rectilinear lenses for stitched pans Michael D. (NASWI) wrote: > You say of your 28/220 shots, "I don't think they are anywhere near as > effective as the stitched pans." Then you comment that, "I found it > difficult to use for people stuff." Your example includes a lot of > conventional images extracted from the pan. > > Have you considered using the 28/220 in lieu of stitching for pans, > and using the 35mm camera rather than extracting and dewarping the > 1:1.5 images? In other words, the information and comments you've > provide (in email and on your site) suggest that you're doing it > backward. Maybe I just don't understand street photography (or street > photographers!). That page probably isn't very clear. The extracting of single images was just an experiment. If you follow one of the links on the page you'll find a lot more 28/220 pans featuring people. Here's the page I mean: http://www.pinkheadedbug.com/wip/roundshot/more.html I haven't yet exhausted the Roundshot but here are the issues I found: 1. Moving people are either compressed or extended depending on whether they are travelling with or against the direction of slit rotation. This is less of a problem at higher shutter speeds BUT 2. You need all the DOF you can get, because the focus of the 28mm lens is pretty much fixed at about 7m (this is a function of the film transport speed). 3. With people it is unbelievably hard to arrive at a satisfying composition in all 360 degrees of view. That's why doing it in multiple shots and stitching is easier. With the Roundshot you have to expend a LOAD of film to have a chance of anything good, and that gets expensive very fast. You can of course do multiple exposures with the Roundshot and comp them together but then the advantage over stitching digital images disappears. 4. The selection of film in 220 format is not huge, especially above 400 ISO. 5. You have to use a tripod. With a monopod you will get a (slightly) wavy horizon. I'm beginning to think that I need to use the Roundshot in a radically different way, maybe handheld or moving around. > In any event, what are your impressions of the 28/220? Which one do > you have (have they actually produced both models promised)? Mine is the 28/220 (not the 'outdoor' one - it has a full selection of shutter speeds). The camera is phenomenally well built, a real thing of beauty. It is totally over-engineered and if anything I am surprised it costs so little. It is capable of really superb results. It is just that what I am trying to do with it may be a little against the grain. -- John Brownlow http://www.pinkheadedbug.com http://www.unintended-consequences.com

From: Anton Zackaria [anzac@cbn.net.id] Sent: Mon 4/14/2003 To: Hasselblad Forum Subject: [HUG] Horseman SW612 FYI: Here's my experience with Horseman SW612 (another Super Wide camera) : The lens is great, I use Rodenstock Apo Grandagon 45/ 4,5. But take note that this lens can only be used at F11, since all the other f stop could only caused very significant vignetting. This is merely based on the test using slide film on blank white wall. The F11 is considered to be the best choice. If you use slide film, the vignetting still occur even with F11, unless you use negative instead (then over exposed for 1,5 stop). The best solution is to attach a center filter as in large format wide angle lenses, it will eat up your f stop another two, but it's worth it. No more annoying vignetting over your blue sky, etc. Sharpness is very good, but due to very wide lens, distortion is quite apparent on corners. Try not to tilt the camera too much, keep it parallel all the time. I got only 45mm, this is the whole set frm my cousin. Sold for only US$ 1685 in mint condition (body, 45/4,5 apo Grandagon lens, 6x12 Horseman back, range finder, ground glass for focusing, Horseman loupe). Only used once. If you could find it, the 135mm lens is great for snap shot. (almost regarded as normal lens). They also have 58, 65 or 90, I forgot.... The great thing about this camera : 1. No mirror, you can handholding & shoot even at 1/8 if you are steady enough. (or even 1/4?) 2. Very quite camera, not very obtrusive. (somehow a little bit look likany other SLR) 3. Operation is simple : load the film, advance as in Hasselblad until frame1, pull out the darkslide, set the f 11, shutter, cock it, and go ! (don't forget to pull out the darkslide coz this camera will keep shooting even wth darkslide inside, you'll end up with blank film) 4. You can keep the center filter attached all the time, you don't focus anything, surely the depth of field of F11 is enough to ensure the whole range sharp. You just compose thru attached range finder on top of camera. (this range finder come wth 6x9, 6x12 mask to suit any back used accordingly) 5. You definitely can forget about having distances to shoot a scene, you can cover a very wide area just from 15 feet away. (And forget about depth of field, too) 6. IF you purchase a newest version which got a perspective control capability, this even better. 7. Excellent large format lens quality inside a medium format camera. The lens is typically large format quality. ( I used Sinar camera with Rodenstock lens as well) 8. You can crop the lower part of the scene, make it into 6x9 cm format. I use this since mine is not coming with perspective control, so I just shoot parallel then crop the lower part. 9. Cheap camera comparing to Linhoff 6x17, unless you buy Linhoff 6x12 & got a good bargain. (anyway the lens is German made, too) The handicapped : 1. No polaroid back for commercial use. 2. Still a question for using digital back on this camera. 3. No smart precaution against wrong action. (you shoot with darkslide attached!) This camera could be considered a manual camera just like any other view camera, only this come with range finder, and focusing barrel. 4. Not very comfortable in your grip, Linhoff might be better in you hands. But alas, for only $ 1685 what can I complain? 5. Don't inadvertently move the focusing barrel from the your set one. (F11, hyperfocal distance) You could end up with wrongfully unfocus image in certain areas. Hope this will help. Anton

From: "Bandicoot" "insert_handle_here"@techemail.com Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.35mm Subject: Re: Hi anyone use Hasselblad x-pan or Fuji Tx-1? Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 "ezara" ezara@photoman.com wrote > Hi > I am interested in panoramic photography and am wondering about these two > cameras. Anyone used one? What are they like? I have read on the net that > bulb is no loner than 30 secs, is that true? Is there some way to by pass > this? Sometmes my expsures go up to for 5 Minutes. > Thanks > > I like mine a lot. On a recent trip I gave it pretty heavy use (heavier than at any time in the year or so since I bought it) and was pleased with the way it stood up. And the images are excellent: the lenses are very sharp and contrasty. The shutter speed is displayed on an LCD on the back, not in the viewfinder, which in Aperture Priority Auto could be a nuisance for some - for me it is mostly a tripod camera anyway and so this is not a big deal. Also, some people complain that they find the switch for changing between panoramic and standard 35mm formats awkward - I have no problems so I think this is a personal thing. (And it isn't to do with Japanese having smaller hands than Westerners: my hands are larger than most.) The 30 second Bulb time (actually, it is 32 seconds) is true - the shutter draws current from the batteries while it is open, and the design engineers were concerned about overheating, apparently. I have heard rumours that Hasselblad / Fuji realised they'd messed up with this short a limitation, and that newer bodies have a longer time set: I don't know the exact truth of this. I've also heard it rumoured that Hasselblad can adjust an 'old' X-Pan to work with the longer B time limit that they now ship with. You might want to ask the Hasselblad importer in your country about this. A while back in response to someone else's question on this same newsgroup I put a few X-Pan images on my website. These are scans done with a desktop flatbed off contact sheets - so they are pretty lousy scans - and they are of the first few films I ran through it so they don't represent the 'serious' work I've done with it since (some of which will make it onto the site in due course.) However, for what they're worth you may find them interesting: http://www.bard-hill.co.uk/X-Pan.html It is a camera with quirks, but taken as a whole I think it is a superb tool and have never regretted buying it. Let us know if you have any more specific questions. Peter

From: Robert D Feinman [robertdfeinman@netscape.net] Sent: Tue 4/8/2003 To: panorama list Subject: Latest comparison of swinglens to 12mm I've added the latest tip to my web site. This one shows the difference between two 360 immersive images. One taken with a Noblex and the other with the 12mm Voigtlander Heliar. The differences were more surprising than I had expected. Take a look, if you're interested.. (last tip under tips page) -- Robert D Feinman robertdfeinman@netscape.net Landscapes, Cityscapes, Panoramic Photographs: http://robertdfeinman.com

Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 From: Robert Feinman robertdfeinman@netscape.net Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format,rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.digital Subject: OT: 360 panorama comparisons I've added the latest tip to my web site. This one shows the difference between two 360 degree immersive images. One taken with a Noblex swing-lens camera and the other with the 12mm Voigtlander Heliar on a 35mm Bessa. The differences were more surprising than I had expected. Take a look, if you're interested.. (last tip under tips page) -- Robert D Feinman robertdfeinman@netscape.net Landscapes, Cityscapes, Panoramic Photographs: http://robertdfeinman.com

From: Arie de Ruiter [esitd1@knoware.nl] Sent: Sun 5/4/2003 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Epson printer quiz! Hi, I am pleased to describe two ways to print very large panoramas (much wider than 44 inch on A3+ roll paper) with the Epson 1290 (1280 in the US): 1. Use the free Epson PhotoQuicker program. I have been using version 2 without problems to print panoramas sized 19634 x 2441 pixels (98.17 x 12.2 inch at 200 ppi) on Epson Photo Paper. I use 'Cut Sheet Mode' and haven't had a need to use banner mode. The current version of PhotoQuicker (3.2) is somehow less easy to use for this purpose. 2. Use the 'Print with Preview' menu in Photoshop 7. This has the big advantage of full access to Photoshop's color management options, optimized printing profiles, etc. The disadvantage is that printing of large sizes is much less straightforward. After much trial and effort I have found that the following, iterative procedure works reliably for my system (1 GHz Pentium III, 1 GByte RAM, MS Windows 2000 SP3 & Windows XP Professional SP1) with Photoshop 7.01 and Epson 1290 printer with v5.22 drivers and Status monitor v3: - open the 'Epson Stylus Photo 1290 Printing Preferences' panel, select the 'Paper' tab, choose 'Roll Paper' as Paper Source, select and click 'User Defined' as Paper Size and then define, name, and save a series of 'user defined' page sizes in the 'User Defined Paper Panel'. I made a series of 44, 45, 50, 60, 70, 80, and 90 inch height (all 12.95 inch wide) and called them 'w4400', 'w4500', ... - prepare your image in Photoshop, making sure that the image dimensions as displayed in the 'Image Size' menu stay within the width of the roll paper, and depending on the total size of the image, choose not too high a resolution to start with (e.g., 150 ppi) - select the 'Print with Preview' menu and - within this panel - select the 'Page Setup' button - set 'Roll Paper', 'Landscape', and choose one of your newly defined paper formats, take a smaller one to start with, e.g., 'w4400' (44 inch x 12.95 inch) - back in the 'Print with Preview' panel, position, resize, and center your panorama image in the preview window in the upper left part of the panel - click the 'Print...' button (still in the 'Print with Preview' panel), select the Epson 1290 printer, and choose the Media Type and the Mode, and make sure that the 'Print Preview' box is checked - make the Epson print preview of the panorama - if it looks OK, click 'Cancel', go back to the 'Print with Preview' panel, select the 'Page Setup' panel and select one of the larger new formats e.g. 'w5000' (50 x 12.95 inch), and repeat the above steps - if the Epson print preview looks good again, repeat the steps another time until you have successfully tested at the target size, and then finally print I don't know why this rather convoluted approach is needed, but it has already been working for me up to print sizes of 85 x 12.95 inch (at 150 ppi), and I do know that the immediate use of a large print format like 'w8000' consistently fails on my system. Probably, a much larger amount of system RAM is needed to improve this limit but I suspect that also a larger size of the print buffer of the 1290 would be required. I hope that these methods will be of help to you. Regards, Arie de Ruiter ...

From: Harold Wong [hgw@math.ucla.edu] Sent: Mon 5/5/2003 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Epson printer quiz! www.inksupply.com has devices to defeat the ink chip on the Epson. They sell CIS as well but you have to match it to the printer you'll eventually buy. They have third party Archival ink. Look here for some exciting upcoming products, especially the CIS for the Epson 2200. http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/new_prod.html Harold > ----- Original Message ----- > From: George S. Pearl > To: Panoramic Mailing List > Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 > Subject: Epson printer quiz! > > > Hi Gang, > I was thinking about getting an Epson Printer for printing some of my > Roundshot 35-35S pans. I would like to be able to print out the > pictures longer than 44 inches, and need to know how to get a driver > or what is needed to do this? I have been looking at the new 1280 > printer as a possible choice, but before I jump into that I want to > hear your thoughts. > Also, I would "like to get" a big ink supply and be able to just pour > the ink in to refill the supply. I have been told that the new Epson's > have some sort of a smart chip in their ink cartridges that does not > allow frugal panorama users to refill their cartridges. Does anyone > know about this? Can this chip be turn off permanently? > Where is the best place to get paper and ink for these printers? > Are making prints with this smaller unit much more expensive than > paying mucho more up front and buying a larger unit and making prints? > For the long run, in other words is it much cheaper to go ahead and > buy the bigger large format printer? I have heard that their smaller > units are more expensive to print on. Is it more than printing photos? > I would think it should be much less. > That's it for now. Thanks for the help. > Your old buddy, > George S. Pearl, QPP > Atlanta Panorama

From: Glenn Barry [glenn@acay.com.au] Sent: Sun 5/4/2003 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Epson printer quiz Hi George, there are several ways around the length limit, the most accessible one I just encountered is to make a multi page PDF with the image cut into pieces going edge to edge on each page, then print it with the Roll paper option. I'm not sure as to the details as to settings but details are in a message recently posted to the immersive imaging list below Glenn Hi I am pleased to offer two more ways to print very large panoramas (much wider than 44 inch on A3+ roll paper) with the Epson 1290: 1. Use the free Epson PhotoQuicker program. I have been using version 2 without problems to print panoramas sized 19634 x 2441 pixels (98.17 x 12.2 inch at 200 ppi) on Epson Photo Paper. I use 'Cut Sheet Mode' and haven't had a need to use banner mode. The current version of PhotoQuicker (3.2) is somehow less easy to use for this purpose. 2. Use the 'Print with Preview' menu in Photoshop 7. This has the big advantage of full access to Photoshop's color management options, optimized printing profiles, etc. The disadvantage is that printing of large sizes is much less straightforward. After much trial and effort I have found that the following, iterative procedure works reliably for my system (1 GHz Pentium III, 1 GByte RAM, MS Windows 2000 SP3 & Windows XP Professional SP1) with Photoshop 7.01 and Epson 1290 printer with v5.22 drivers and Status monitor v3: - open the 'Epson Stylus Photo 1290 Printing Preferences' panel, select the 'Paper' tab, choose 'Roll Paper' as Paper Source, select and click 'User Defined' as Paper Size and then define, name, and save a series of 'user defined' page sizes in the 'User Defined Paper Panel'. I made a series of 44, 45, 50, 60, 70, 80, and 90 inch height (all 12.95 inch wide) and called them 'w4400', 'w4500', ... - prepare your image in Photoshop, making sure that the image dimensions as displayed in the 'Image Size' menu stay within the width of the roll paper, and depending on the total size of the image, choose not too high a resolution to start with (e.g., 150 ppi) - select the 'Print with Preview' menu and - within this panel - select the 'Page Setup' button - set 'Roll Paper', 'Landscape', and choose one of your newly defined paper formats, take a smaller one to start with, e.g., 'w4400' (44 inch x 12.95 inch) - back in the 'Print with Preview' panel, position, resize, and center your panorama image in the preview window in the upper left part of the panel - click the 'Print...' button (still in the 'Print with Preview' panel), select the Epson 1290 printer, and choose the Media Type and the Mode, and make sure that the 'Print Preview' box is checked - make the Epson print preview of the panorama - if it looks OK, click 'Cancel', go back to the 'Print with Preview' panel, select the 'Page Setup' panel and select one of the larger new formats e.g. 'w5000' (50 x 12.95 inch), and repeat the above steps - if the Epson print preview looks good again, repeat the steps another time until you have successfully tested at the target size, and then finally print I don't know why this rather convoluted approach is needed, but it has already been working for me up to print sizes of 85 x 12.95 inch (at 150 ppi), and I do know that the immediate use of a large print format like 'w8000' consistently fails on my system. Probably, a much larger amount of system RAM is needed to improve this limit but I suspect that also a larger size of the print buffer of the 1290 would be required. I hope that these alternative methods will be of help to some of you. Regards, Arie de Ruiter "George S. Pearl" wrote: Hi Gang, I was thinking about getting an Epson Printer for printing some of my Roundshot 35-35S pans. I would like to be able to print out the pictures longer than 44 inches, and need to know how to get a driver or what is needed to do this? I have been looking at the new 1280 printer as a possible choice, but before I jump into that I want to hear your thoughts. Also, I would "like to get" a big ink supply and be able to just pour the ink in to refill the supply. I have been told that the new Epson's have some sort of a smart chip in their ink cartridges that does not allow frugal panorama users to refill their cartridges. Does anyone know about this? Can this chip be turn off permanently? Where is the best place to get paper and ink for these printers? Are making prints with this smaller unit much more expensive than paying mucho more up front and buying a larger unit and making prints? For the long run, in other words is it much cheaper to go ahead and buy the bigger large format printer? I have heard that their smaller units are more expensive to print on. Is it more than printing photos? I would think it should be much less. That's it for now. Thanks for the help.Your old buddy, George S. Pearl, QPPAtlanta Panorama Glenn Barry Photography N.S.W. 2104 Australia E-Mail: mailto:glenn@acay.com.au Web: http://www.acay.com.au/~glenn

From: Alan Zinn [azinn@netbox.com] Sent: Mon 5/5/2003 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Epson printer quiz! George, Regarding the bulk ink supply check out MIS: http://www.missupply.com They have everything you need for 1280 including chip info and carts. Also look at my web page for a slick top-off refill system I use. Regarding the longer than 44 inches - I think it can be done but never tried it. The 1280 is slow. If you are thinking of any kind of production speed you'd be better off with something fancier. I don't have any recommendations. The tech folks at MIS are very good and will answer all your questions about that. AZ

From: Anil Rao [arao99gsx@yahoo.com] Sent: Tue 5/6/2003 To: PentaxMF@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PentaxMF] Re: Large format printing Hello there, > I have been doing some research for a local (which means a 100 > miles around Mendocino) shop that I can produce the same results > I am achieving, in the next size up... sounds like your question > as well. I don't know if this will help but Calypso Imaging in Santa Clara (CA) offers large format digital printing services on their Epson 9600. They can go as far as 44" wide. Check them out. I haven't got any prints made there, but Calypso has done an excellent job with scanning some of my 6x7 slides on their 12000dpi drum scanner. -Anil http://arao99gsx.home.att.net

From hasselblad mailing list: From: Peter Marshall [petermarshall@cix.compulink.co.uk] Sent: Mon 5/12/2003 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: The Fuji TX-1 (Hasselblad Xpan) > The other day I purchased a camera I have long wanted, a second had > (and rather well-used) Fuji TX-1, better known outside Japan as the > Xpan. > > Now I understand an improved version has been announced. If I'd waited > a little longer I might have got a better deal, but as it is I already > love my TX-1. I was too busy to use it this weekend (argh!) but the > first roll of film is in it and waiting. I must say the automatic > functions are a pleasant surprise after my all-manual Bessa L, R and T > and the ageing Widelux that feeds my Panorama habit. They seem quite > well thought out. > > I know the angular spread of the 45mm lens is rather small by most > panoramic standards (a mere 25mm converted to the 135 format) but I > really love the image quality I have seen produced by this camera. > However, I know all about stitching, and am prepared to stitch one or > two images if I need to! > > Roger > Roger, Yes, its a great camera, but look out for a 30mm lens too if you can find one. This really transforms the camera in terms of angles of view. The problem I found with stitching is that I almost always needed more vertical coverage as well as horizontal. The 45mm is only a standard lens in terms of vertical coverage. The viewfinder for the 30mm is also a joy to use, with a large bright image and spirit level, considerably better than the built in one. It does have a couple of minor defects - it doesn't show which format you are using (but I always shoot pan now), or the rangefinder or warning lights, but is much nicer to use. Since I got the 30mm, I use this for the great majority of the shots I take on the X-Pan. The 45mm does have an advantage in terms of aperture, particularly as you can use it without the centre filter on negative film (though it often helps to correct a little on the computer if you do this.) And I still use my ageing Widelux occasionally, although the slightly younger if more decrepit Horizon gets more frequent outings. Both the 15mm and 21mm Voigtlanders are great lenses, especially for the price, but I've not tried stitching images from them. Peter Marshall Photography Guide at About http://photography.about.com/ email: photography.guide@about.com

From: Roger Williams [roger@adex-japan.com] Sent: Mon 5/12/2003 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: The Fuji TX-1 (Hasselblad Xpan) Michael D. (NASWI) HillM@naswi.navy.mil wrote: > If you've not found this info at the Hasselblad site, the data sheet on the > 45 mm lens gives info on where to rotate for stitched pans. At infinity > focus, rotate 55mm in front of the film plane (which, of course, is > marked on the top of the body). That is MOST helpful of you, Michael. Finding the nodal point with a rangefinder camera is at least an order of magnitude more difficult than with an SLR! I was thinking I would have to contact Fuji here in Japan... and expected a long session of being handed from one person to another-- always politely, of course--until I found someone who knew what I was talking about! > I didn't realize there was a new XPan, but looking at the differences, I > suspect that used XPan prices won't drop dramatically. Though the new one > has features that should have been in the original, I'm not inclined to > sell my (camera) body to upgrade. They are more in the nature of improvements to remove disincentives to a first purchase rather than major changes designed to encourage trading up. I believe they have addressed most of the complaints that greeted the original model. On the other hand, I hear the price increase is rather stiff... I was out using the TX-1 this morning, and it is very convenient to have both standard and panoramic coverage in the same camera. Roger > > M. Denis Hill, QPP > Teleproductions > FASOTRAGRUPAC DET WHIDBEY > 360.257.3141 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Roger Williams [mailto:roger@adex-japan.com] > Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 > To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au > Subject: The Fuji TX-1 (Hasselblad Xpan) > > > The other day I purchased a camera I have long wanted, a second had (and > rather well-used) Fuji TX-1, better known outside Japan as the Xpan. > > Now I understand an improved version has been announced. If I'd waited a > little longer I might have got a better deal, but as it is I already love > my TX-1. I was too busy to use it this weekend (argh!) but the first roll > of film is in it and waiting. I must say the automatic functions are a > pleasant surprise after my all-manual Bessa L, R and T and the ageing > Widelux that feeds my Panorama habit. They seem quite well thought out. > > I know the angular spread of the 45mm lens is rather small by most > panoramic standards (a mere 25mm converted to the 135 format) but I > really love the image quality I have seen produced by this camera. > However, I know all about stitching, and am prepared to stitch one or two > images if I need to! > > Roger

From: Thinh Le [thinh@thinh.com] Sent: Fri 5/9/2003 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Epson printer quiz! Michael, Look in this PDF document for the Maximum Printable Area Limit section which explains the limit by the driver, operating systems and applications. http://files.support.epson.com/pdf/pro10a/pro10aps.pdf TL ...

From panoramic mailing list: From: Hill, Michael D. (NASWI) [HillM@naswi.navy.mil] Sent: Wed 5/14/2003 To: 'panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au' Subject: RE: Cirkut Replacement My choices would be the Noblex 175 or, when it goes into production, the Schorlex. The Noblex 175 gives you a 6x17 with 75mm lens. Schorlex will be 6x24 with 150mm lens. (For you Cirkut guys, that's 6x17 and 6x24 cm, not inches!) A RoundShot Super 220 VR would also do quite well, say with a Mamiya 645 110mm lens. M. Denis Hill

From: ralph fuerbringer [rof@mac.com] Sent: Tue 5/13/2003 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: comparisons does anyone have comparison shots of the same scene, same angle with a Hasselblad X-pan,30mm and a Noblex 35? they would of interest to a lot of us. i would expect the noblex to be significantly wider with a trifle more vertical coverage but at a significant disadvantage in the rendering of architectural details nearby. i have on my homepage 2comparison shots taken by James Romeo at the same time i was shooting on 612 with a 35mm f4.5Apo-Grandagon,an incredible rectilinear optic. the horizontal coverage is almost the same as you can see in the railway station scene where the cameras were in exactly the same spot.. The vertical of course of the 612 is about 80% greater. the shots are at the bottom of my homepage.

From: ralph fuerbringer [rof@mac.com] Sent: Sun 5/18/2003 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: 120 Widelux - Panon? the successor to the panon, the panox (besides additional speeds had no red windows) was available in the 50's. it was a well-made, good performer with versatile speeds, longest was 2-seconds i believe thus it could be used it for the opposite of runners. someone coulld walk in sync with the lens for a nifty blur from bank door to teller's window for example. in nyc and not shooting groups my preference is for rectilinear rendition of buildings and interiors so i sold it to cinerama. they needed something for stills to approximate the coverage of its 3 lens 3 strip shooting system. it's chief weakness panon and panox red windows) an imperfect finder, just a peepsight with a frame out front. i got a finder from the panofic(best 140 degree finder ever), had a special bracket made to hold the finder on the camera w/o defacing, changing anything, so camera was intact when i sold it. still have the special bracket and the finder which i use on a 617 with the 47mm xl super angulon, which is one result stretching 120 rectilinears 50 years after i sold the panox . at 82 yesterday i will stop fiddling/hacking. a good friend of mine had the widelux 150 or whatever it is called. had to set it at some weird distance for general shooting. had a variety of people work on it to no available. strange because i understand it was made 20 years or so later by the same people who made the panox which was at least the one i had a superlative performer, if you happen to prefer rotating cameras, not that there is anything wrong with that. http://homepage.mac.com/rof Steven Morton wrote: > If it was made in 1969 and it is 120 is it a Panon? > > Although wasn't the first prototype for the 1500 made in the 70s, > many, many years before it went into production? > > Cya > Steve > >> I just got a call from someone about a Widelux for sale. I'm >> guessing that it's a 1500, but it's 120/220, was made in 1969, but >> the lens was made in 1974. I haven't seen it. > >> Thoughts? >> Scott

From: ralph fuerbringer [rof@mac.com] Sent: Sat 5/17/2003 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Cirkut Replacement From panoramic mailing list: those who recommend the 6x17 and 6x24 and other 2 1/4/70mm wide film as circuit replacements apparently are under the illusion that these will allow larger groups than the 612. wrong.. the overall horizontal angle remains about the as the focal length of the lens increase offsets the longer fillm size . even more disastrous the vertical covering power declines horrendously : instead of the 50mm lens of the 612 noblex the 6x17 has 75, and probably 100mm on the still to be seen 6x24s. this doesnt help on finding an adequate replacement for the circuit for really large groups as i doubt if there is anything to match a circuit contact print in impact, definition, not even considering the cost/time of some sort of substitute. if color negative film is still available for the circuit i see no immediate problem whatsoever. fine black and white prints, contacts/enlargements can be made from cn easily as well as great color prints. i have a sample of a scenic in both black and white on my website. http://homepage.mac.com/rof ...

From: Andy Buck [buckwiet99@yahoo.com] Sent: Tue 5/27/2003 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Cirkut film sources I, too, ordered Forte film through Eight Elm Photo - http://www.eightelmphoto.com - in Toronto. I dealt with Michael Lee there. It took about 6-8 weeks. I ordered 8 100' rolls of 5" wide ISO 400 B&W;, their minimum. It cost 1/2 what the US distributor quoted me and 1/3 what Ilford wanted. Andy James Young jamiehy@tds.net wrote: Hi Scott When I was getting my #16 cirkut going I looked at a bunch of choices for film and finally contacted the canadian distributer for Forte film, which is EIGHT ELM PHOTO- In toronto if I remember correctly.They were cheaper than the us outlet. They gave me a great price on film. The minimum order was 4 100 foot rolls, which is pretty good. I ended up paying less per roll in materials ($20.00)

From: Ron Klein [panorama@gci.net] Sent: Tue 5/27/2003 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Cirkut film sources Scott: Needless to say, you can go directly to the great yellow father and see what they offer. Kodak only has aero films and they sorta work. You would have to experiment with developing to get the results you need. If that is your direction, pick low altitude films as they will have the least problems with increased red sensitivity / contrast. If you decide to load your own film you need to have a source of spools and paper leaders. No problem if you have saved every roll that you have shot since day one. If not, then you will need to use suitable material for both leader and trailer. Plain paper will work for trailers, but the leader can be a problem. I have seen black plastic used but that seems trashy to me. You could tape four 120 leaders together with Scotchtape. That's a lot of work, but I have done it and it makes a good leader. Kodak won't part with their leader paper don't even ask them.. They claim it is proprietary. Using the camera by loading raw film in the darkroom and shooting it is risky because of light leaks and doesn't allow for in the field reloading even with a changing bag. There you sit, dripping in sweat, fighting a stubborn roll of film in a changing bag with three hundred kids yelling at you. It ain't a pretty sight. Been there and done that.... USE LEADERS. The best bet for film would be to contact Ilford as they seem to want to help the little guy more than Kodak. There is the possibility that the other companies that make b&w; film will help but time and language can be insurmountable. I actually had a roll of 8 inch x 250 feet Chinese cirkut film that was given to me when I was in China, but that was years ago and the trail is now cold. Places like China still use the cirkut camera for groups like what you are doing only involving many more people. At the PMA show in Las Vegas I talked with a rep from Lucky film (Chinese) about getting cirkut film. At first they we interested but after a few phone calls, they dropped the idea. I believe it is a matter of the left hand not knowing what the right is doing. I know they make it. You'd have to go to China and start at the back door of the factory if you know what I mean. A few years ago I approached FOMA and actually got a price for b&w; 8, 10, and 16 inch film and it was very reasonable. Then 9/11 hit and I lost interest in the film thinking that it would be impossible to get film shipped without it being X-rayed to death. FOMA is in the Czech Republic. No doubt my worries are highly exaggerated, but I haven't started looking again. Jamie Young had Ilford make some 16 inch film for his cirkut and although somewhat expensive he is happy with it. I have no idea as to the delivery time on special order products but it could be long and I suspect you need to start shooting groups soon. If there is an interest in film from FOMA I might be able to place an order. I have an excellent connection who lives only a few miles from the factory and he has talked with them. My pal is a photographer so he knows what to ask. Sorry about the long letter but I hope it helps. Ron Klein IAPP president and cirkut shooter as well

From: "Norman Worth" nworth@earthlink.net Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format Subject: Re: 6x17 air panorama camera Date: Sun, 11 May 20 The Surplus Shed (www.surplusshed.com) has been selling KB-18A cameras. They take 70mm film and give a 2.25 by 9.4 inch image - about what you want - with 180 degree panorama coverage. "amt" a.mile@libero.it wrote > does any one knows where i can buy one (possibly secondhand)? > thanks

From: "Bandicoot" "insert_handle_here"@techemail.com Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.35mm Subject: Re: Hi anyone use Hasselblad x-pan or Fuji Tx-1? Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 "ezara" ezara@photoman.com wrote > Hi > I am interested in panoramic photography and am wondering about these two > cameras. Anyone used one? What are they like? I have read on the net that > bulb is no loner than 30 secs, is that true? Is there some way to by pass > this? Sometmes my expsures go up to for 5 Minutes. > Thanks I like mine a lot. On a recent trip I gave it pretty heavy use (heavier than at any time in the year or so since I bought it) and was pleased with the way it stood up. And the images are excellent: the lenses are very sharp and contrasty. The shutter speed is displayed on an LCD on the back, not in the viewfinder, which in Aperture Priority Auto could be a nuisance for some - for me it is mostly a tripod camera anyway and so this is not a big deal. Also, some people complain that they find the switch for changing between panoramic and standard 35mm formats awkward - I have no problems so I think this is a personal thing. (And it isn't to do with Japanese having smaller hands than Westerners: my hands are larger than most.) The 30 second Bulb time (actually, it is 32 seconds) is true - the shutter draws current from the batteries while it is open, and the design engineers were concerned about overheating, apparently. I have heard rumours that Hasselblad / Fuji realised they'd messed up with this short a limitation, and that newer bodies have a longer time set: I don't know the exact truth of this. I've also heard it rumoured that Hasselblad can adjust an 'old' X-Pan to work with the longer B time limit that they now ship with. You might want to ask the Hasselblad importer in your country about this. A while back in response to someone else's question on this same newsgroup I put a few X-Pan images on my website. These are scans done with a desktop flatbed off contact sheets - so they are pretty lousy scans - and they are of the first few films I ran through it so they don't represent the 'serious' work I've done with it since (some of which will make it onto the site in due course.) However, for what they're worth you may find them interesting: http://www.bard-hill.co.uk/X-Pan.html It is a camera with quirks, but taken as a whole I think it is a superb tool and have never regretted buying it. Let us know if you have any more specific questions. Peter

From: "Bandicoot" "insert_handle_here"@techemail.com Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Subject: Re: Panoramic options - Hasselblad X-Pan vs Mamiya 7 vs Horizon etc Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 "Q.G. de Bakker" qnu@worldonline.nl wrote > Bandicoot wrote: > > > I use and really like the X-Pan, but haven't used the others you mention so > > can't give much in the way of comparison. I've answered a few questions > > about the X-Pan on R.P.E.35mm fairly recently: a Google Groups search should > > bring those up if you're interested. Certainly the aspect ratio is one I > > find very satisfactory, and the lenses are uniformly excellent. It has its > > faults, but overall is a system I like (and use) a great deal. > > > > If you have any specific questions on the X-Pan, feel free to ask, > > I assume you will have seen the specs of the "new" XPan II? > Could you tell us if and how these new specs answer deficiancies you may > have felt the "original" XPan has? > And what XPan faults, if any, are continued in the XPan II? > > Thanks in advance! The single biggest issue for me is addressed, as well as some things that are niggles, or that I know bother other people more than they bother me. When The X-Pan was launched I felt sure a II model would come out before too long to correct the niggles - but I bought an original one anyway and haven't regretted it. Going over the list of changes: IMPROVEMENTS RELATIVE TO XPan LCD display in the viewfinder showing shutter speed and exposure information - This is the biggest deal for me. As I use the camera mostly as a tripod camera, and mostly setting manual exposure based on a spot meter, I didn't mind not having the shutter speed (when set to AE) displayed in the viewfinder _most of the time_ - but I did miss it a lot now and again if using the camera handheld for 'grabbing' something. This correction means it is freed from being basically a tripod only camera and becomes a real street shooter as well. Multi exposure (up to 9 exposures) - A minor niggle, but certainly nice to have. Self-timer delay 2 or 10 s - ditto B-time 540 s - The limited length of the B time was an issue for many, though not a particularly big deal for me. You could get it modified by Hasselblad on an X-Pan, but making it standard on the X-Pan II makes sense. Improved IR film performance - Not a really big deal for me personally (I use other cameras with IR films) but certainly it would be nice to try HIE in an X-Pan. Flash sync at the beginning or end of exposure - This is good: trailing curtain sync. for a panoramic shot of a bicycle race sweeping past is the sort of thing that comes to mind. Rewind of film with option to leave a film tip out of the cassette - This is useful, though for me it would be most useful if I could then reload a film back into the X-Pan and go back to where I left off with it before: I'm not sure if this is possible of not (though it can always be fudged, of course). Lens shade for 45 and 90 mm lenses with locking device - I never felt the original version to be loose, but I know some people did Dioptre lens with locking system - Ditto Electrical remote release (optional release cord) - Not something I really missed In addition, the manual film speed setting dial has vanished, replaced by menu controls on the back plate. Looks a bit neater I suppose, but not a big deal. Some people have said they find the switch for changing formats is awkward to use, and this has not changed. Personally I have no trouble at all with it, despite having quite large hands. Others have also complained about the slow lenses, made even more so in the case of the 45mm and 30mm when the centre filters are fitted. To me it seems these are about the best apertures one could expect when making Medium Format lenses that are only 35mm sized! For my use of the camera it isn't an issue anyway, but if you plan to use it hand-held a lot or in low light, it might be. Overall, yes, the main niggles have been addressed and this has made a great camera greater still, and will broaden its appeal. I'd like one, but for the landscapes I mostly shoot the difference is not big enough for me to feel like trading up. Some time back a 135mm lens for the X-Pan was rumoured. Now that is something I'd really like to see. Peter

From: "Daniel VERMEERSCH" dvermeersch@nordnet.fr To: cameramakers@rosebud.opusis.com Subject: Re: [Cameramakers] film holder spec. Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 Leonard, you are the best! Thanks a lot. Friendly yours. Daniel ----- Original Message ----- From: Leonard Roberts To: cameramakers@rosebud.opusis.com Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 Subject: Re: [Cameramakers] film holder spec. Daniel, I measured an 8X20 holder and here is what I found: Thickness of holder: 13/16" (20.5mm). Outside sizes: 9 19/32" (243.5mm) by 22 3/8" (569mm). Exposure field window sizes: 8" (230.5mm) by 19 5/8" (499mm). Distance to exposure field at end: 1 1/4" (31.5mm) at "flap" = end. 1 1/2" (38mm), = at darkslide insertion end. Depth to film surface: 23/64'" to 3/8" (9mm). I took most of these measurements with steel machinist rules, so they are fairly accurate, although this is an old wooden holder, so the dimensions of the holder vary somewhat. The "Depth to film surface" is actually the depth to the face of the center divider board that the film lays against. On my holder, this board appears to be a dense cardboard material and is slightly warped, so this depth varies depending on where on the holder the measurement is taken. If the material you use for a center divider is a different thickness from the material in my holder, you will have to change the thickness of the holder to allow for the difference. If you need any other measurements, please let me know. If you are sucessful making a holder, please post details for the rest of us. Leonard

From: Willem-Jan Markerink [w.j.markerink@a1.nl] Sent: Thu 3/13/2003 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: (FWD) Announce: PTGui 2.0 (front end for Panorama Tools) Subject: Announce: PTGui 2.0 (front end for Panorama Tools) From: "PTGui" support@ptgui.com Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 Newsgroups: de.rec.fotografie,de.alt.rec.digitalfotografie A new version of PTGui has just been released. PTGui is a Windows graphical user interface for Panorama Tools, to stitch pictures into 360 degree panoramic images. Download a free trial version from: http://www.ptgui.com/download/ Many features have been added to the software, among which: - a project wizard - more flexible control point editing - batch stitching If you have tried PTGui or Panorama Tools before, but gave up, then the new Project Wizard will be a big improvement. You can now quickly create a panorama without worrying about projections or optimizer settings. As before, the Panorama Editor of PTGui allows hands-on manipulation of perspective corrected images, a feature not found in many other packages. The resolution and speed of the panorama editor is improved in this version. To ease Panorama Tools installation, an installer package is now available which installs everything in the right place and configures PTGui too. If you are a registered user of PTGui, your registration key will remain valid. Simply install the new version over the previous one. If you have not ordered PTGui yet, give this version a try; it will start a new trial period of 30 days. PTGui - www.ptgui.com -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink w.j.markerink@a1.nl [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]

From panoramic mailing list: From: ralph fuerbringer [rof@mac.com] Sent: Tue 7/15/2003 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: list is still here hello out there, list. anyone curious as to see the same scene with swinglens noblex and 612 rectilinear with 35mm apo-grandagon look at http://homepage.mac.com/rof . the horizontal angle is about the same but that is all that is alike. via la difference

From: Dan Vint [dvint@mindspring.com] Sent: Mon 8/25/2003 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Noblex user question you wrote: >made, but the battery cover is held in place only by a very small plastic >pin sort of thing, which in my case broke. Keep in mind that I just bought >the thing in late June, and it broke in mid July, but isn't considered a >warrantee item. Sometimes the devil really is in the details. Be careful and don't put too much pressure on the back film cover either as the plastic there breaks very easily as well. I know I did it while trying to load film in a hurry. Had to send it back to Germany for the repair. For a camera as expensive as this and with the size of the back and the batteriies being on the back, I'm surprised the hinge wasn't beefier than it is. Otherwise I love my 175. Several years ago I was looking to buy accessories and was actually told that the Panulux was not very reliable for the expense. ..dan

From: Roger Williams [roger@adex-japan.com] Sent: Tue 9/9/2003 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: stitching software need recomendations Les, If you also have access to a PC, PanoTools with the PTGui interface (the former is freeware and the latter modestly priced shareware) is hard to beat. All operations are performed at the very highest resolution, but with low resolution previews to speed things up, and all operations are ultimately combined so as to avoid successive degradation throughout the process of warping and stitching, etc. The final resolution can be whatever you want it to be, it is not limited to web 72dpi! It is a shame, from your point of view, that this is not available for the MAC. I hesitated to mention it for that reason but did so on the offchance you might have the needed access. Roger

From: Steven Morton [steven.morton@spme.monash.edu.au] Sent: Tue 11/25/2003 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: View - 1880's View of Washington, DC Hi All, Go To: http://www.spme.monash.edu.au/~smort/42WashDC.jpg Cya Steve

From: Willem-Jan Markerink [w.j.markerink@a1.nl] Sent: Wed 11/26/2003 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: (Fwd) WIDEPAN still not available ------- Forwarded message follows ------- From: "George S. Pearl" alps007@mindspring.com To: w.j.markerink@a1.nl Subject: WIDEPAN still not available Date sent: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:18:28 -0500 Dear panorama people, Since I am a panorama photographer myself, I know what I like and don't like in a pan camera. So far I have not had success with the Chinese manufacturer of the WIDEPAN Camera to produce cameras with Quality Control. They have been very close to what should be expected, but still not quite there yet. If you do not see me advertising the camera for sale, you will know that it is not ready for our market. If you buy this camera in other markets in Europe or China, you will take your chances for a camera that is properly made and operating. I wish I could say they are ready, but so far they are not quite there yet. When they are ready for US sales, you will be getting the best camera in the world for what it does and the price. Period. It does have promise to turn the pan market upside down when released. See: www.widepan.com My best, George S. Pearl, QPP ALPS - WIDEPAN Cameras ----- Original Message ----- From: "Willem-Jan Markerink" w.j.markerink@a1.nl To: "SteveS" sgshiya@redshift.com Cc: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 Subject: Re: Long exposureRe: Noblex question > SteveS wrote: > > > Can you tell me more about this Chinese camera? Where are they > > available? > > > > S. Shapiro > > One of our listmembers in the US sells them: > > George S. Pearl > ALPS - WIDEPAN Cameras > 2139 Liddell Drive, NE > Atlanta, Georgia 30324-4132 > 1-404-872-2577 > > > Wish it did 50x120mm, instead of 50x110mm (and be a bit less tall). > Note that it also does 24x110mm with 35mm film and an adapter, very > nice option. -- Bye, > > Willem-Jan Markerink > ------- End of forwarded message ------- -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink w.j.markerink@a1.nl [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]

From: Helmut Dersch [der@fh-furtwangen.de] Sent: Sun 12/28/2003 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Cc: Subject: PTViewer 3. for HDR-panoramas A new version of PTViewer (3.) can now work with high contrast images. Allowable dynamic range is 256 f-stops or 77 orders of magnitude. File size is ~25% larger than JPEG-compessed 8bit images. See my website for two demos, a technical article, download of the viewer and file conversion program. http://www.fh-furtwangen.de/~dersch Regards Helmut Dersch

From: Marco [listman@invisiblesilence.de] Sent: Sun 12/28/2003 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: PTViewer 3. for HDR-panoramas Helmut Dersch wrote: > A new version of PTViewer (3.) can now > work with high contrast images. Allowable > dynamic range is 256 f-stops or 77 orders of magnitude. > File size is ~25% larger than JPEG-compessed > 8bit images. > > See my website for two demos, a technical article, > download of the viewer and file conversion > program. > http://www.fh-furtwangen.de/~dersch Welcome back! Are you aware that there is a 'new' mailinglist for your Panorama Tools? ;-) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PanoTools/ Marco

From: Robert C. Fisher [rcfish@pacbell.net] Sent: Wed 9/10/2003 To: panoptic Subject: Re:Larscan Mike Bell wrote: > > Does anyone have Larscan plans. I am trying to obtain the Larscan book > but am not having much luck. Any help will be appreciated. > > Regards > Mike Bell I think between these sites there is the information you need. I tried about a year ago to buy the book also with no luck. http://panoramic.net/www/larscan.htm http://www.cyberbeach.net/~dbardell/panoptic.html Cheers Robert C. Fisher QTVR Photography/Cinematography www.rcfisher.com

From nikon MF mailing list: Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 From: "Daniel F F Ford" daniel_ford@optusnet.com.au Subject: Panorama stitching s/w (was: Online photo albums -- which one?) Stuart, The software I used consists of two major components: PanoTools (free) and PTAssembler (shareware). PTAssembler is free for a one month evaluation, then gets partially crippled until you pay the USD29 registration (well worth it in my view). PanoTools is very powerful (written by a university professor, I believe - adjusts yaw, pitch and roll, as well as colour and brightness), but is command-file driven (very complex to drive, I'm told). PTAssembler, written by someone else, provides a graphical 'front-end' for PanoTools, allowing you to specify graphically the matching points on adjacent images, as well as 35mm-equivalent lens focal length (or FOV if you prefer), and then generates a command file and feeds it to PanoTools to do the stitching and colour adjustments. A small tip for anyone planning to try stitching hand-held panoramas (after many hours of trial-and-error before getting a satisfactory stitch of that Indian panorama) - the worst mismatch in hand-held panoramas usually occurs in the foreground. So in specifying the matching points on adjacent frames, avoid specifying foreground points or you might get a badly curved horizon. I ended up specifying three points on each frame edge: one at the top of the mountains and two (roughly horizontal) along the eye-level horizon (the interface between the river-bed and mountains in my photo.net example). Of course the foreground needed lots of cloning to disguise the poorly-matching blends, and the maximally-polarised sky also needed much work between the middle frame (dark sky) and the outer ones (lighter) to make a smooth transition. Regards, Daniel Sydney, Australia

From: Willem-Jan Markerink [w.j.markerink@a1.nl] Sent: Mon 9/29/2003 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Panorama article in New York Times Tony Andrews wrote: > There is an article called "The Sweeping View from Inside a Digital > Bubble by Matthew Mirapaul in the Technology section of today's > (25.9.03) New York Times which I read on-line - http://www.nytimes.com > It mentions several panoramic photographers and their websites: Tito > Dupret's World heritage sites http://www.whtour.net Jook Leung's > Manhattan panoramas http://www.360vr.com Sydney Australia's Peter > Murphy's weblog with photos http://www.mediavr.com/blog Danish Hans > Nyberg http://www.panoramas.dk with links to 400 sites with panoramic > photos. > > Tony Andrews I like the 'business-card' in this one....:)) http://www.panoramas.dk/fullscreen2/full40.html (tilt over forwards, to the ground) -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink w.j.markerink@a1.nl [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]

From: ADavidhazy [andpph@ritvax.isc.rit.edu] Sent: Sat 1/10/2004 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Interesting use of slit camera FYI - A description of such application is included in "Linear-strip photographs using Cirkut and Hulcher cameras" available at: http://www.rit.edu/~andpph/text-cirkutrain.html This article was written to answer the question: "How does one set-up and use a Cirkut camera to make "linear strip photographs" of a passing train resulting in a long photograph presumably showing the train from engine to caboose including several cars in between?." BTW, this is also refered to in a more extensive article with a "summary" illustration: http://www.rit.edu/~andpph/articles.html and the full article at: http://www.rit.edu/~andpph/text-conical-strip.html Plus there are several other related articles on the same general topic at: http://www.rit.edu/~andpph/articles.html Andy Andrew Davidhazy, Professor School of Photographic Arts and Sciences/RIT andpph@rit.edu http://www.rit.edu/~andpph

From: Robert D Feinman [robertdfeinman@netscape.net] Sent: Fri 1/9/2004 To: panorama list Subject: Interesting use of slit camera Home made slit camera for taking train pictures: http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~js4k-nmk/egindex.htm -- Robert D Feinman robertdfeinman@netscape.net Landscapes, Cityscapes, Panoramic Photographs: http://robertdfeinman.com

From: "Harry Smart" harry@harrysmart.plus.com To: cameramakers@rosebud.opusis.com Subject: Re: [Cameramakers] wooden panoramic 120 camera Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 Umit, don't know if this helps, but I recently made a 'longfellow' using an old 120 body ... instead of the usual method of joining two 6x9 bodies, I took a 6x6, halved it, and did a 'stretch' job, so had to make up new sections for the film gate and the back (front as well, of course, but film gate and back were more awkward). I found some plastic sections marketed for railway modellers, a range of H and T sections in various sizes from about 4mm to 8mm (longest dimension of cross section). I found I was able to use these to make a lip on the door (T section) which fit into a rebate (H section) on the back. I don't mind the mix of materials, used steel plates to join the cut sections of the back and the body, and a wooden plate on the bottom, and cardboard with gaffer tape to build a nose to hold the lens. Have struggled with light leaks, but from the lens side of the body and not, as I had feared, from the back / door. Harry ----- Original Message ----- From: Umit Ulgen To: cameramakers@rosebud.opusis.com Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 Subject: [Cameramakers] wooden panoramic 120 camera I just made a prototype mould of 120 film panoramic camera which will use 90 mm angulon lens. wood measures 10cm wide, 9cm hight and 24 cm in lenght. it has two handles on each side ust like the alpa design. it isnt glued togeher small parts of wood, it is carved from a solid piece of wood. what i am finding difficult is and need some help is the film door. film door is 0.5 cm thick. i dont see anyway i can make it ust like the normal camera which the door is reall thin metal and comfortably fits in to the camera body. do you thinlk my best option is add 0.5 mm thick pieces of wood to the back of the camera and slide the door in just like a sheet film holder? this would be the only option as far as the light tight situation goes. if anyone has a better idea or plans please contact. umit

From: Andy Buck [buckwiet99@yahoo.com] Sent: Wed 2/11/2004 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: New Web Photo Gallery Open for Comments (Siracusa and the Baroque Valley of Noto) As far as using a panoramic camera 'at an angle', Alan Zinn, maker of the Lookaround camera, has done some wonderful things with the technique, some of which are at http://panoramacamera.us/m_recentwork.html Andy ...

From: Willem-Jan Markerink [w.j.markerink@a1.nl] Sent: Mon 2/16/2004 To: michael przewrocki; panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: (Fwd) Re: Roundshot 28/220 & 28/35s Wow, cool!....:)) Only a bit more patience and we will have all info from the horses mouth....:)) ------- Forwarded message follows ------ Send reply to: w.seitz@roundshot.ch From: "Werner Seitz" w.seitz@roundshot.ch To: w.j.markerink@a1.nl Subject: AW: (Fwd) Re: Roundshot 28/220 & 28/35s Date sent: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 19:33:43 +0100 Organization: Seitz Phototechnik AG -----Urspr_ngliche Nachricht----- Von: roundshot [mailto:seitz@roundshot.ch] Gesendet: Sonntag, 15. Februar 2004 An: w.seitz@roundshot.ch Betreff: WG: (Fwd) Re: Roundshot 28/220 & 28/35s -----Urspr_ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Willem-Jan Markerink [mailto:w.j.markerink@a1.nl] Gesendet: Sonntag, 15. Februar 2004 An: seitz@roundshot.ch Betreff: (Fwd) Re: Roundshot 28/220 & 28/35s > Dear Mrs/Mr, > > As you can read below, we have a discussion on the Panorama > Mailinglist about the range of rare & unusual Roundshot camera's > that were once made, either prototypes or custom-orders....could > you send me a complete list of these rare models, perhaps even with > further specifications? > Many thanx in advance! Hello Mr. Markerink Thank you for your mail. I started to make a list with all cameras that we have made and I found more and more. Al over we have made in the last 45 years over 70 different camera-models. Most cameras in the beginning have been made in small quantity from 1 to 10 pcs. They have been made for users all over for photographers, for industry and military. We will do a list and we will trie to put almost all the mede cameras on it. Please give us some more time, as we have to make resurch in our documents. To the question below I can tell the following: We have made several panorama cameras using a 28mm lens. All of them used 35mm film. They have been made with Leica and Schneider 28mm lenses. In the same time we produced a camera using a 21mm lens from Leica. Some cameras hade changeable head's. One motor with the control could be used for a 21mm camera-, a 28mm camera- and a 35mm camera-head. We made cameras using the 90mm Rodenstock lens together with 5 Inch film We never made a camera with 10 Inch film. Also several Super 5 Inch have been produced.The camera had film cassettes and could carry all lenses from 65m to 600mm. We hope this short info helped you for the moment. As said we will forward you a list with almost all cameras ( trie to find pictures as well ) with more info. If you like you may have a look at our actual web page. A new release is in preparation and will be online in 3 weeks. www.roundshot.ch With best regards Werner Seitz SEITZ Phototechnik AG Hauptstrasse 14 8512 Lustdorf Switzerland w.seitz@roundshot.ch www.roundshot.ch Werner Seitz SEITZ Phototechnik AG Hauptstrasse 14 8512 Lustdorf Switzerland w.seitz@roundshot.ch www.roundshot.ch Phone +41 52 376 33 53 Fax +41 52 376 33 05 -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink w.j.markerink@a1.nl [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]

From: Richard Schneider [richard.schneider@nara.gov] Sent: Tue 3/16/2004 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Site of Interest Some of you "big shots" out there might find this article interesting: http://www.tawbaware.com/maxlyons/gigapixel.htm Have fun, Richard

From: ralph fuerbringer [rof@mac.com] Sent: Tue 3/9/2004 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: digital nut. this is no longer true. i have examples of direct photographic prints as good as it gets from my 6x12 color negatives. for the hell of it i took one of my negatives to photo expo in nyc a few years back for a 16x20 crystal archive fuji print and a heidelberg scan by Nancy Scans with a 15minute conference for $60 or so. this shot of a guy picking up he girl in the late afternoon at the Hoboken Railway station is on the bottom of my homepage http://homepage.mac.com/rof .. the first print i got from Nancy Scans i told them was so dark it looked like Dracula picking up a prospect in the Transysvania Station at Midnight. I sent them a 12x24 print which is my idea of a contact from 612. The 2nd print was fine easily surpassing the straight print in sharpness and color. i thought i could never equal that on the 1200 epson stylus i bought but the first print i made on it surpassed the crystal archive as clearly as that haf surpassed the c=print. The ny times had an article saying the crystal archive easily surpassed the humble inkjet in definition and color. baloney. As an oldtimer and i do mean old, 83, you cant base judgements on the past or on someone else's brainwashed conclusions. i have the 3 comparison prints that do not lie to show to anyone who comes to the big apple. incidently on my homepage that same Hoboken Rail Station was shot by James Romeo on a Noblex at the same time as i shot mine on Vistashift 612 with a 35mm Apo-Grandagon in case you are interested in how the swinglens camera stacks up against the rectilinear when architecture is involved. George S. Pearl wrote: > Dear Mr. Walton, > I think you have gone digital nuts over this. Why not just have the > negatives printed normally by projecting the negatives in an enlarger > onto > photographic paper ?!!! You can not get better results than direct > photographic printing from the original negative. Maybe you should > give it a > try. It has been around for years you know :-) > My best, > George S. Pearl, QPP > Atlanta Panorama > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian Walton" info@dotco.co.nz > To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au > Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 > Subject: dpi and all that > > >> I have just spent the last few days trying to fid out a little more >> about neg size/ enlargement/ dpi and all that. >> >> I shoot 66X24mm (via a Noblex) and was wondering if it was really >> worth the extra expence in camera gear and drum scanner to go up >> to either 6X12 or 6X17. Most of my work is shot for the net, so in a >> way the 66X24 is overkill, but some of the work is enlarged to about >> a metre in width. The fun starts when you talk to the "experts" >> about how I should present the final image for printing. >> >> Some say EPS some say Tiff. Some say 300/400dpi, some say >> 150 is fine. So I'm firstly confused about the output via a CD I >> should be giving to a printing house. Where should I be looking via >> the net for help. >> >> And ref the 6X12 or 6X17 neg size. Sure it would be lovely to have >> all that size and quality. But in reality is it worth that extra when >> the end print is only going to be a metre wide. >> >> All comments appreciated. >> >> Brian

From: "David J. Littleboy" davidjl@gol.com Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Subject: Re: The opposite of a close-up lens? Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 "Ralf R. Radermacher" fotoralf@gmx.de wrote ... > jjs nospam@please.xxx wrote: > > So, where are we now? What's the format again? 50mm? Brand? > > Noblex 150E. 5 x 12 cm. Rotary lens panoramic camera using 120 film. I'm surprised you are having such problems, since lots of people claim that they produce very sharp images, but I do agree that hyperfocal focusing is generally a bad idea. A minus diopter lens* should increase the focal length, but I'd think that it would degrade the image more than stopping down would. Have you tried it at f/16 or f/22? (Yes, I realize that having to shoot at f/16 or f/22 with a seriously expensive camera is seriously irritating.) *: Looking at the scale on my 645 55mm lens, the distance the lens moves between infinity focus and the hyperfocal distance for f/22 is very small, so I suspect that any minus diopter, even -1/4, will be way too large for what you need, which is probably on the order of 1 mm out of 55. David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan

From: w-buechsenschuetz@web.de (Winfried Buechsenschuetz) Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Subject: Re: The opposite of a close-up lens? Date: 29 Mar 2004 fotoralf@gmx.de (Ralf R. Radermacher) wrote > I've just found out that my new camera (Noblex 150E) is short-sighted by > design. Well, they call it "hyperfocal focussing". We don't even have a > word for this nonsense in German. In german this method sometimes is called 'Naheinstellung auf unendlich'. > Now, given that human short-sightedness can be corrected quite > satisfactorily with glasses, is there a possibility of doing the same > with a camera and what would be the effect on the optical performance? A close-up lens actually shortens the focal length of a given lens. In your case you obviously have to make the focal length longer (as you probably can't change the distance between lens and film plane). A plano-concave or concave-concave lens would do the job. But as with close-up lens, a poor additional lens will degrade the performance of the original lens. A single negative lens is not achromatic and not corrected for astigmatism and other aberrations. Such lenses are not available as an accessory. Edmund Industrie Optik makes 'negative achromats' in a wide variety of focal lengths, but of course these come unmounted. By adding a 'weak' negative lens (i.e. one with long - negative - focal length) you will get a longer focal length of the complete system. Winfried

From: "Nicholas O. Lindan nolindan@ix.netcom.com Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format,rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Subject: Re: Large formad drawback? Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 Someone wrote: > The only exception is that Australian designed movie lens where > everything is in focus but it is so weird and far out of what we're > talking about its not relivant. Discussion on photo.net: http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=004Hcm Court ruling tossing out the patent: http://www.engin.brown.edu/courses/en100/IP/Frazier.txt It seems this was the Emperor's new lens. -- Nicholas O. Lindan

From: "MikeWhy" mikewhy@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Subject: Re: The opposite of a close-up lens? Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 "brian" brianc1959@aol.com wrote > fotoralf@gmx.de (Ralf R. Radermacher) wrote > > brian brianc1959@aol.com wrote: > > > > > I assume that you've got a "normalish" lens such as a Tessar with a > > > modest field of view. > > > > It is in fact a Tessar type but at a focal length of 50 mm for a > > medium-format camera it isn't exactly what one would call "normalish". > > > > Ralf > > Since the lens only has to cover the short side of the format it is > optically "normal" even though it produces an ultrawide panorama. The > vertical coverage would be about 54 degrees. If, as is discussed > below, the hyperfocal distance is set to about 30 feet, then you would > only need -1/10 diopter of correction to focus at true infinity. The > resulting astigmatism introduced by such a weak plano-concave negative > lens would be negligible compared to the inherent zonal astigmatism of > a Tessar. Alternatively, you could attempt to move the lens back by > about 0.25mm. Do you know where the focal distance is set? 1/100 of an inch is about two layers of bond paper. A layer of duct tape on the pressure plate ought to do it. I think Littleboy suggested that some fifty posts ago.

From: "Roland" roland@rashleigh-berry.fsnet.co.uk Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Subject: Re: The opposite of a close-up lens? Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 ... > 1/100 of an inch is about two layers of bond paper. A layer of duct tape on > the pressure plate ought to do it. I think Littleboy suggested that some > fifty posts ago. That seems the best idea. Pad up the back that the film runs over so the film is further away from the lens. Perhaps some strips of Dynotape label without any writing on. Could be called something different wherever you are but the plastic tape you press characters into so they turn white and are raised and then you stick them on things.

From: "David J. Littleboy" davidjl@gol.com Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Subject: Re: The opposite of a close-up lens? Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 From: "David J. Littleboy" "Roland" roland@rashleigh-berry.fsnet.co.uk wrote: > "MikeWhy" mikewhy@my-deja.com wrote > > "brian" brianc1959@aol.com wrote > > > fotoralf@gmx.de (Ralf R. Radermacher) wrote > > > > brian brianc1959@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > I assume that you've got a "normalish" lens such as a Tessar with a > > > > > modest field of view. > > > > > > > > It is in fact a Tessar type but at a focal length of 50 mm for a > > > > medium-format camera it isn't exactly what one would call "normalish". > > > > > > > > Ralf > > > > > > Since the lens only has to cover the short side of the format it is > > > optically "normal" even though it produces an ultrawide panorama. The > > > vertical coverage would be about 54 degrees. If, as is discussed > > > below, the hyperfocal distance is set to about 30 feet, then you would > > > only need -1/10 diopter of correction to focus at true infinity. The > > > resulting astigmatism introduced by such a weak plano-concave negative > > > lens would be negligible compared to the inherent zonal astigmatism of > > > a Tessar. Alternatively, you could attempt to move the lens back by > > > about 0.25mm. Do you know where the focal distance is set? > > > > 1/100 of an inch is about two layers of bond paper. A layer of duct tape on > > the pressure plate ought to do it. I think Littleboy suggested that some > > fifty posts ago. > > That seems the best idea. Pad up the back that the film runs over so the > film is further away from the lens. Oops. Wrong direction: you need to get the film closer to the lens. > Perhaps some strips of Dynotape label > without any writing on. Could be called something different wherever you are > but the plastic tape you press characters into so they turn white and are > raised and then you stick them on things. FWIW, this is NOT what I suggested (which was to get a repair person to adjust the lens position); this sounds like a screamingly bad idea. Getting tape adhesive anywhere near a camera's internals is not something I'd even think about doing. (Other than Holgas, where it's necessary.) David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan davidjl@gol.com Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Subject: Re: The opposite of a close-up lens? Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004

From: Martin Jangowski martin@jangowski.de Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Subject: Re: Older Noblex 150??? Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 Ralf R. Radermacher fotoralf@gmx.de wrote: > Is there anything inherently wrong with a first generation Noblex 6/150? > How much of a problem is the hyperfocal focussing as opposed to infinity > in landscape photography. Anything else one should be aware of? There are two problems known to me with the older 6/150: It is easy to loose the old style battery covers, and the leaf springs at both film rolls can be loose, so you have large steps between negatives and the last one is only half exposed. The lens is easily one of the best I have yet seen. I routinely use my Noblex freehand with 1/250s and (mostly) f8 or f11 (depending on light), but everything is incredible sharp at all distances. Martin (Noblex 6/150U)

From: dcolucci@aol.comspam (DColucci) Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Date: 29 Feb 2004 Subject: Re: Older Noblex 150??? fine camera, but can be a bit finicky. Things you should know: http://www.whistlerinns.com/noblex/protech.htm http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=000pHy Great camera with insane sharpness when working correctly.

From: Scott Davis [sddavis@midmaine.com] Sent: Thu 2/26/2004 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Re: Epson 2200 A clarification.....I need to produce prints in large numbers, each 8" high by about 30" long. This requires a roll of 8" wide paper, which Epson doesn't produce (8.3" only), which would be too short if they did (33'), and far too expensive. There are many other papers out there, made by companies such as HP and Kodak, as well as by companies that just make paper and the like. And yet, only Epson paper will work correctly because of the roller design. I find that curious...... I think that I have solved the problem, however, by the use on the plastic ties that are used to bind wiring. Cut off and use the latch (?) and the last cm or so of the strap, push the roller up into its bracket with one hand, and slip the tie into the bracket with the other. So far this has worked well for me, and the ties are something like $ 3.00 per 100 at Home Depot. In colors, yet. Epson should give those away. FYI, judging by what I've read on other groups, and in surveys (try CNET), this is a serious problem, which Epson seems to be avoiding. They might have a problem here. On my other question, any ideas on inksets for the 2200 to produce B/W prints? Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Williams" roger@adex-japan.com To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 Subject: Re: Epson 2200 > Scott Davis sddavis@midmaine.com wrote: > > > Questions: > > > > A) Can anyone recommend a system for B/W printing inks for the 2200? > > > > B) Can anyone offer a solution for the roller streaks on same? I know > > that > > this is endemic with the 2200, or just Epson's sad attempt to get > > everyone > > to buy their paper. > > I find the system that came with the 2200 just fine. And Epson's paper > seems great to me. > > Roger

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 From: me me@me.me Newsgroups: aus.photo Subject: Re: Panoramic Camera Recommendations Rob Wild wrote: > Hi All, > Can anyone recommend a good panoramic 35mm camera other than the > Hasselblad XPan/XpanII? > > Cost would be a factor - would be looking at less than $1500 AUD. > many thank in advance. > > Rob Not at $1500. You may pickup a *Widelux 35mm or 120 swing lens *Noblex 35mm or 120 swing lens Then you go to something like *Xpan *Mamiya 7 with 35mm pan insert and wide lens (Mamiya M7 65mm/f4.5 N Lens #OC1005 c/w Lenscaps, Lenshood, Instructions and original packaging - (Excellent ++) $1850 Mamiya M7 Panoramic Adapter - (Excellent) $225) *Fuji 6x17cm *Linhof 6x17 or 6x12 (Linhof Technorama 612 PC Kit inc: 612 PC Body#9751057, Super Angulon 65mm/f5.6 Lens #14293489, Symmar-S 135mm/f5.6 Lens #14227277, - Optical Veiwfinder, Centre Graduated Filter, Lenscaps, Neckstrap and Linhof Aluminium Case... - (Very Good) $4750) *ArtPanorama 6x17 **then you could look for a field or view camera wide lens and a roll film back. Cambo Wide 470 Kit c/w Schneider Super Angulon XL 47mm/f5.6 Lens #14539981, Centre Filter # IIIC, Cambo Inline Viewing Hood and Fresnel Screen - (Excellent +) $5250 Prices are from www.europeancameras.com Most of this stuff is still good real estate tho.

From: fotoralf@gmx.de (Ralf R. Radermacher) Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Subject: Re: The opposite of a close-up lens? Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 RolandRB rolandberry@hotmail.com wrote: > [... a lot...] Just a few short notes as I'm almost out of the door for a week's holiday: > Now I believe from reading some Internet sites that the Noblex 120 > film models have a fixed slit at the back and different exposures are > achieved by using different rotational speeds. I have no confirmation > of this, though. This is right. The slit (they call it the gap length) is 3 mm wide and, unlike that of the Horizon, it is not variable. http://www.kamera-werk-dresden.de/english/noblex/cameras/frameset.htm > If the lens is a Tessar type then they could adjust > the air gap between the front converging element and the strongly > diverging element behind it. The lenses on early MF Noblex cameras were even labelled as Tessars. They're calling them Noblar now that they have them manufactured by Docter Optics. One may safely assume that it is in fact a Tessar clone. Ralf -- Ralf R. Radermacher

From: rolandberry@hotmail.com (RolandRB) Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Subject: Re: The opposite of a close-up lens? Date: 7 Apr 2004 fotoralf@gmx.de (Ralf R. Radermacher) wrote > RolandRB rolandberry@hotmail.com wrote: > > So shifting the lens backwards is not a good cure for the > > distance being out of focus. > > In real life, this doesn't appear to be that much of a problem, since > the 150U can be focussed to various settings from a few meters to > infinity. And no, they don't do this by shrinking and expanding the rear > of the camera. > Ralf I've just found a Noblex site with some information on that I can use in a few calculations. What I will show you is that moving the lens backwards to achieve focus at infinity will cause horizontal resolution problems. But focussing at infinity can be achieved by adjusting the focal length of the lens in any case so long as the effective distance from the film will not change. But first I will show you how moving the lens back causes a problem. I will use this model for my calculations: http://www.whistlerinns.com/noblex/150_hs.htm First I need to calculate the radius of the drum inside the camera (from centre to film surface) according to the figures provided on that page. The horizontal 135 degrees is on 120mm of film so the radius is given by: (360*120)/(135*2*pi)mm = 50.93 mm The lens is quoted as having a focal length of 50.75 mm so you see that they are using a lens of slightly shorter focal length than the centre to film radius. The effect of this is to have a distance closer than infinity in focus and they quote this distance as 10.4 meters. I will now use that figure of 10.4 meters to accurately calculate the lens centre to film surface distance. 1/f = 1/objectdistance + 1/imagedistance 1/imagedistance = 1/50.75 - 1/10400 = 0.019608 ...therefore image distance = 51 mm So the distance of the optical centre of the lens to the film surface is 51 mm and I will assume that this is what 50.93 should have been if the figures for the angle and film length were given more accurately. So what we have is a 50.75 mm focal length lens at the centre of a 51mm radius and the effect of that slightly shorter focal length is to have objects at 10.4 meters in focus rather than objects at infinity in focus. I will show you how the horizontal resolution is affected as the lens is moved backwards. Moving back from 51mm to 50.75mm to put the distance in focus will change the magnification to 1.005 of what it was before. Half a percent. First I will make a guess of the resolving power of such a lens. This will be very high due to the simple design that is not required to "get into the corners" as flat film cameras do. I will assume a resolving power of 100 line pairs per millimeter, except maybe at the top and bottom of the image. Now supposing the slit at the back were 1 mm in width, then the 0.5% change in magnification would cause an upright image to move by 1/200th of a millimeter horizontally. This would reduce the horizontal resolution from an initial assumption of 100 lp/mm to a guesstimate (done by me drawing) of 66 lp/mm (not a problem). But if the rear slit were 2mm wide then the horizontal resolution would be reduced to about 33 lp/mm (a slight problem but such a poor resolution is, I believe, not uncommon for medium format cameras) and if the slit were 3mm wide then the horizontal resolution would be reduced to 17 lp/mm (a problem). If the slit were 5mm wide then the horizontal resolution would be about 4 lp/mm and this would be in stark contrast to the vertical resolution still at 100 lp/mm. Now I believe from reading some Internet sites that the Noblex 120 film models have a fixed slit at the back and different exposures are achieved by using different rotational speeds. I have no confirmation of this, though. So if the focussing at infinity was achieved by moving the lens backwards then there is no way this problem can be escaped and the resolution would be affected as I have indicated. If the slit were 2mm wide or less then I wonder if that problem would be noticed. It wouldn't be noticed if the slit were as narrow as 1mm. So what I am suggesting is that if the slit at the back is indeed fixed and is wider than 2mm then they might be achieving the change in focus by means other than moving the lens forwards and backwards. There is nothing to stop them changing the focal length of the lens using a correcting lens so long as the optical centre of the arrangement was still 51mm from the film and therefore the magnification did not change. If the combined lens had a focal length of 51mm instead of 50.75 mm and the optical centre was 51mm from the film then the distance would be in focus and there would be no loss of resolution. But there is a much easier way to achieve this without a correcting lens. If the lens is a Tessar type then they could adjust the air gap between the front converging element and the strongly diverging element behind it. Ths was done on front-cell focussing folding cameras. This changes the focal length of the lens and could probably be done in such a way as to leave the optical centre of the lens arrangement the same distance from the film. I guess it would be just as easy or even easier to move the front element as move the whole lens. It would be interesting to hear from somebody who knows the optical construction of these focussing Noblex 120 film cameras. If somebody out there has one then can they confirm that the slit at the back is fixed and if so what width is it?

From: Willem-Jan Markerink [w.j.markerink@a1.nl] Sent: Tue 4/6/2004 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: Diffractive optics insect-style Including panoramic vision....sounds cool....:)) http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20040402-015549-5848r.htm -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink w.j.markerink@a1.nl [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]

From: Thomas B. Kunz [tbk@tbk.de] Sent: Mon 3/1/2004 To: panorama-l@sci.monash.edu.au Subject: AW: Widepan Hi, please look at the great Website of Widepan: http://www.widepan.com/WIDEPAN-PRO2-PHOTO-GALLERY/A-PAGE-MAIN-PRO2-PHOTO-GALL-TABLE.htm there is a small gallery. GEORGE S. PEARL could help you best. I have just bought the Widepan 140 Pro II in Shanghai,China with the 135Filmadapter and it works well. Some german infos at: http://tbk.de/panorama/show2.htm#Widepan friendly Thomas

From: rolandberry@hotmail.com (RolandRB) Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Subject: Re: The opposite of a close-up lens? Date: 14 Apr 2004 rolandberry@hotmail.com (RolandRB) wrote > rolandberry@hotmail.com (RolandRB) wrote > > fotoralf@gmx.de (Ralf R. Radermacher) wrote > > > RolandRB rolandberry@hotmail.com wrote: > > > > > > > [... a lot...] > > > > > > Just a few short notes as I'm almost out of the door for a week's > > > holiday: > > > > > > > Now I believe from reading some Internet sites that the Noblex 120 > > > > film models have a fixed slit at the back and different exposures are > > > > achieved by using different rotational speeds. I have no confirmation > > > > of this, though. > > > > > > This is right. The slit (they call it the gap length) is 3 mm wide and, > > > unlike that of the Horizon, it is not variable. > > > > > > http://www.kamera-werk-dresden.de/english/noblex/cameras/frameset.htm > > > > > > > If the lens is a Tessar type then they could adjust > > > > the air gap between the front converging element and the strongly > > > > diverging element behind it. > > > > > > The lenses on early MF Noblex cameras were even labelled as Tessars. > > > They're calling them Noblar now that they have them manufactured by > > > Docter Optics. One may safely assume that it is in fact a Tessar clone. > > > > > > Ralf > > > > > > I have tried emailing the manufacturers to get information about what > > mechanism is used to focus the lens in the focussing models 150U and > > 150UX. I have an answer but I feel there is a language problem. I > > think it would be better if the question were both asked and answered > > (and perhaps clarified) in German. I wonder if perhaps you could find > > the time to do this? I feel it would be worthwhile to clarify this for > > the newsgroup and hence to have it archived for the future. The > > contact page I have is: > > http://www.kamera-werk-dresden.de/deutsch/kontaktframe.htm > > > > Roland > > > I did get a response in clearer English (I'm not complaining because I > should be able to speak German) and the person from the company said > that they do indeed move the lens towards and away from the film > (moving the secondary principal point). I am very surprised about this > for the reasons I have stated. I would be interested in a focussing > model but not if it worked the way they said it did. I would want some > assurances as to horizontal resolution before I parted with the > considerable money for one of those focussing Noblexes. I found just what I was hoping for. This is the web page of people who built a swing-lens camera. Note how they say the rear (posterior) optical node (second[ary] principal point is the same thing) must stay exactly on the axis and how they had to adjust it using a microscope and said that it could take a week to do this. http://www.funsci.com/fun3_en/panoram2/pan2_en.htm Now, if I am to believe it, the focussing Noblex 150U and 150UX moves the lens back and forth when it is focussing and the information sent to me clearly indicates that it is the secondary principal point that is changing the distance to the film surface -- I quote (note that the point 2 referred to was me listing possibilities of how the focussing was achieved which was "2) by changing the distance of the lens to the film surface"). "The outlook of the removal (focus) results through an axial displacement of the entire lens. In your second inquiry this would become the point 2) correspond to. For the three areas following the image distance a' are discontinued (removal secondary principal point in the lens to the film): Outlook "infinite" ~ = 50,9 mm Outlook "m" ~ = 51,15 mm Outlook "n" ~ = 51,7 mm" So you have an amateur site where they have made their own swing-lens cameras and they stress that the rear (posterior) optical node (same as secondary principal point) must stay exactly on the axis and might take a week to adjust using a microscope to get it right and a manufacturer of professional expensive swing-lens cameras who are moving the secondary principal point back and forth in the direction of the film surface to achieve focussing. What I thought they would be doing, when focussing at the different distances, was using a combination of moving the lens back and forth but altering the spacing of the front element such that the secondary principal point always stayed exactly on the axis. That way the magnification stays constant even though the lens is focussed at different distances (or so it would seem from the equations I have looked at). Now somebody, somewhere has got it wrong. Maybe the information I received wasn't official and was just a personal interpretation of a technical issue they were not fully conversant with. Is there anybody out there with a 150U or a 150UX who can do resolution tests for the lens at the three focussing positions (without using the close-up diopters) for both horizontal and vertical resolution? If the horizontal resolution goes to hell when focussed at the closer distances and there is horizontal movement of the image obvious from an enlargement, then that would support the theory that they are moving the secondary principal point. But then, who would buy a camera designed that way? Roland

From RF mailing list: Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 From: Roger Williams roger@adex-japan.com Subject: Second-hand TX-1s The advent of the TX-2 on the Japanese market the other day (Sep. 4), after some disturbing rumours that Fuji might discontinue marketing it under its own brand within Japan while Hasselblad markets it everywhere else as the XPan II, has certainly pushed a number of SH TX-1s onto the market and marked down their prices. There's a perfectly good SH TX-1 including 45mm and 90mm lenses going for 110,000 yen at my favourite SH shop. That's just about US$1,000! One factor that made Fuji hesitate was Hasselblad's insistence that they WOULD be marketing the XPan II within Japan. Until now, it has only been possible for Japanese to buy grey market Hasselblad XPans. Fuji had the market to themselves. The Japanese are prepared to may more for the prestigious name, so Fuji will inevitably lose some sales to Hasselblad. There's also a brand new TX-1 being offered WITH 45mm lens for less than the TX-2's body alone (148,000 yen against 156,000). And that very expensive 30mm is going for about 150,000 yen (new, with finder but without radial filter). However, I don't think I will be trading in my TX-1 to upgrade any time soon, although I do think the TX-2 is a definite improvement in several important respects. Roger Work: www.adex-japan.com Play: rogerama at www.pgallery.net & www.fujirangefinder.com

From: rolandberry@hotmail.com (RolandRB) Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Subject: Re: Moscva 5--decent student camera? Date: 24 Apr 2004 fotoralf@gmx.de (Ralf R. Radermacher) wrote > RolandRB rolandberry@hotmail.com wrote: > > I have one in storage at the moment. Because it is so heavy and bulky > > I haven't had the chance to use it yet. > > Oh, sure. > Ralf You don't believe me? I bought one last century. Do a search on "Roland and Noblex". I have not used the Noblex yet. I am aware that it is not focussed at infinity and I will do the calculations sometime to work out what effective resolution I can get at infinity distance. I don't want to take it on a serious shoot with me if it is incapable of doing the job. If I find a firm that is capable of doing a sensible conversion then I would be interested in getting it changed to focus at infinity (with the secondary principle point still on the axis, I would stress). I have the Horizon 202, the Horizont and the Widelux F8 as well and have used those last three. The Horizont has only had a test roll through it. I will have to strip it down and fix the clutch. I got more into the physics of these cameras after I was very disappointed with the results of my Widelux F8 that I took on a tour of Europe. Even when stopped down at the smallest aperture the far distance (which was what I was most interested in) was not in sufficiently sharp focus for me. I took it into Lee's of Holborn and they explained this business about magnification and how, because of this, they could not do any work on the camera to set the lens fuurther back. I now note that the manufacturers of the Noblex have focussing models but from the information available to me and my understanding of the situation they are focussing by moving the secondary pprinciple point away from the axis and to me this is totally wrong. If you look at that web site where some amateurs made a swing lens camera then they mention how important it is to make sure this secondary principal point has to stay on the axis. They say it might take a week to adjust it in. But don't let me put you off buying one of these expensive focussing Noblex 150 models. If you get one then please report back on this newsgroup, your findings of the horizontal resolution you are achieving at the various focus settings. Roland

From: hemi4268@aol.com (Hemi4268) Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Date: 30 Apr 2004 Subject: Re: Noblex 150 resolution at infinity Hi You get close to infinity when the image is 1000 times smaller then the original. This is about 200 ft with a 2 inch lens. Actual focus position will be 50.050mm with a 50mm lens or 50 microns in from true infinity. At f-8, which has 64 microns of focus depth, easly overlaps the above 50 micron focus error and will actually overpass infinity. Then again at 2000 ft, the actual focus position of a 50 mm lens is 50.005mm or 5 microns in from infinity. This is good enough for a f-2 lens which as 4 microns of focus depth. Larry
End of Page

Widelux F7 Lens Data
Widelux F7	26mm	f/2.8 Lux
f/stops	center	edge
2.8	58	33
4	65	36
5.6	82	41
8	73	41
11	73	58