Kuro5hin.org: technology and culture, from the trenches
create account | help/FAQ | contact | links | search | IRC | site news
[ Everything | Diaries | Technology | Science | Culture | Politics | Media | News | Internet | Op-Ed | Fiction | Meta | MLP ]
We need your support: buy an ad | premium membership | k5 store

[P]
RIAA vs. Captain Teach (Op-Ed)

By cribcage
Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 03:56:05 AM EST

Music

The RIAA is suing four college students, alleging that each was operating a file-sharing service to trade copyrighted music illegally. In the past, the RIAA has always looked to universities to control campus networks. The RIAA would send a letter to the college, and the college would shut the students down. These lawsuits are a break from that strategy, and constitute a major offensive by the RIAA.

 


ADVERTISEMENT
Sponsor: mattbee
I'll try to fit everything about our hosting into 255 characters but it's hard work. Here goes:
£15 per month for root access on a Linux host, choice of kernel and distributions, content DNS service, configurable watchdog w/ email and SMS alerts, discounts for free software authors, donations to Debian & money off for referrals, serial cons... damn.
active | buy ad
ADVERTISEMENT

Let's be clear from the beginning. If the RIAA's complaints are accurate, these kids are plain, run-of-the-mill idiots. They weren't simply trading files; they were running independent networks, allowing massive numbers of people to trade files. Specifically, the RIAA is charging that the four networks distributed 27,000 files, 500,000 files, 650,000 files, and over a million files, respectively. That's a hell of a lot of pirated music. To use a common analogy: These four were dealers, not simply users.

You have to be pretty stupid to do that sort of thing, today. Think about it: These kids watched Napster burn in flames, courtesy of RIAA lawyers. They watched KaZaA become the next big thing -- and presumably, if they were savvy enough to set up their own P2P networks, they were well aware of the media attention haunting KaZaA. Nevertheless, each of these four decided to sit in his college dorm and set up his own little "Napster," servicing hundreds of thousands of users. If true, this amounts to basically dialing up the RIAA and inviting it to help itself to your future earnings for the next 860 years.

The RIAA is seeking the maximum legal penalty -- $150,000 for every copyrighted work that was downloaded. If successful, the students would lose something in the neighborhood of a hundred billion dollars. Divide that by four defendants, and...yup. They're all still pretty well fucked.

But really, we don't care about them. The reason this story reverberates so loudly across the net is the reason the RIAA filed these suits in the first place: We're all left wondering, "Who will be next?" Is file-trading worth the risk of being dragged into a massive lawsuit? Such suits, even if frivolous and unsuccessful, can easily bankrupt any defendant. For that matter, who should win? Is "piracy" really a bad thing? Who does it harm, and why should you care?

First, let's dispense with the terminology question. I do think it's funny that the RIAA refers to file-sharing as piracy 364 days a year, then drops the term when its minions visit the US Naval Academy...but that aside, the word "piracy" has become a legitimate term for the practice of file-sharing copyrighted works. See Merriam-Webster: "the unauthorized use of another's production, invention, or conception especially in infringement of a copyright." I don't use the term, personally; but arguing that it's improper is a losing battle.

The file-traders' bottom line is pretty simple: "We hate the RIAA." Their two most common arguments are:

  • "We need P2P, because the RIAA and Clear Channel control the radio. Everything on FM is the same, and P2P is the only way we can discover independent music."

  • "The RIAA isn't losing any sales. Most of the songs we download are just singles we heard on the radio. We only wanted each single, so we wouldn't have bought the complete albums, anyway."

So the great benefit of P2P is that you can discover new, independent music...but all you ever use it for is to download popular singles? Can you say, "mutually exclusive"? Either you're getting for free music you would have paid for, or you're not. Step away from the microphone, and make up your minds.

Both arguments, of course, are jokes. I own several thousand CDs of independent music, all of which I managed to discover without the benefit of P2P. Clear Channel became a giant by giving listeners exactly what they want: simple, straight, unconfusing pop music. People want lyrics to sing along to, and 4/4 or 6/8 rhythms that keep their feet tapping. Their idea of "different," from decade to decade, is changing the instrumentation a bit. A song had better be catchy, it had better be repetitive, and it had better be tonal, or else it's not going to get airtime. People simply don't want to hear it.

Don't take my word for it. In the past two years, the record companies have watched their sales growth begin to decline. Immediately, they cut the dead wood. Every major label slashed or eliminated their jazz divisions. Classical music now makes up barely a fraction of their budgets. If you're recording Bach or Mozart, you might have a shot; but you won't find Ligeti or Lutoslawsky on any major labels. Record companies know where the money is. I laugh at people who say, "I like all kinds of music." Invariably, they start rattling off names of pop artists who, to them, sound distinctive -- J.Lo, Puff Daddy, Dave Matthews, Eminem, etc. If it doesn't follow the pop formula, people simply don't want to hear it.

That brings us to the file-traders' second argument: they're only downloading these pop singles because they wouldn't buy the albums, anyway. Well, the record industry phased out short-playing records in favor of LPs long ago, because their market research proved: Spending a bit more to produce a longer album yielded greater profit, because people would indeed pay more to own singles they heard on the radio. Anyone who says people won't buy full-length albums just to hear one or two songs is flat-out wrong. I spent three years working in a record store, and I watched thousands of customers do exactly that. And compilation series like "Best of the '80s" and "NOW" successfully cater to the few stragglers who demand "greater value."

That same market research has been proved repeatedly in the decades since. Cassette and CD singles were both tried valiantly, because the public insisted they would buy more music if they could buy only the songs they wanted. A program was even offered in the late '90s allowing customers to program their own CDs, selecting their favorite popular singles and paying accordingly. Record companies eventually lost quite a bit of money on these ideas. In fewer numbers, singles continue to be mnufactured today -- at a loss. Had they been remotely successful, they wouldn't have been phased out. If you don't want to take the RIAA's word, take my firsthand experience: On a good day for singles sales, they're still outnumbered 20-to-1 by full-length album sales.

So, the question: "Is file-sharing 'stealing'?" Again, Merriam-Webster: "to take or appropriate without right or leave and with intent to keep or make use of wrongfully." Unless you pay for copyrighted music, legally, you don't have the right to possess a copy. So yes, if you're downloading copyrighted music across unregulated network, then you are stealing. "Duh."

The immediate response: "We're helping bands. Artists rarely profit from albums, anyway. They profit from touring, and sharing their music online helps promote their shows." Well, that's a very polite argument, Robin Hood. Record companies may hoard album profits for themselves; but right or wrong, what they're doing is legal, and what you're doing isn't. And whatever your motivation, whomever you may be "helping"...stealing is stealing. Just because you feed the poor doesn't mean you're not stealing from the rich.

But the basic point misunderstood by nearly every file-trader is that copyright law isn't designed to protect money. It's designed to protect control. By file-sharing an artist's copyrighted music, you are violating that artist's right to control his own work.

Again: "We're helping artists. Increased exposure is good." Well, one man's dream is another man's nightmare. I can think of any number of reasons why an artist might not want his music shared online. Maybe he feels embarrassed by the quality of an early album, and he doesn't want it expanded beyond its initial release. Maybe he's decided to change direction, musically, and he doesn't want continued circulation of his older works. Maybe he feels that MP3 compression unacceptably distorts music, and he doesn't want his songs distributed in that format. Hell, maybe he originally released 64 copies of an album as part of a conceptual performance artwork, and expanding its circulation will somehow violate the integrity of that work.

Ultimately, an artist's reasons for wanting to limit distribution of his music are none of your damn business. Copyright law gives him the right to do that, if he chooses. And the moment you become a distributor of copyrighted music, you are violating that right.

For the record: Any unauthorized distribution is a violation of copyright law, whether or not you profit from it. You have the right to buy a copy of the new Britney Spears CD. You have the right to burn copies of that CD for your work and car, if you like. You even have the right to burn 20,000 copies of that CD and stack them in your bedroom, if that happens to be your fetish. But as soon as you hand one of those copies to another person -- literally, or online -- you have become a "distributor." Whether or not you accept money is irrelevant. You have no right to distribute someone else's copyrighted work.

File-sharing isn't a simple issue. It involves a direct conflict between legal precedent and technological advances. As with any complicated issue -- abortion, capital punishment, chocolate or vanilla -- there is logic on both sides, and any "simple" decision is probably either ignorant or self-serving. Certainly, the major studios are guilty of underhanded tactics in the copyright battle. Both sides are guilty of their shares of ignorance, dishonesty, and refusal to listen. But the file-traders are lauded as folk heroes, while the record executives are burned in effigy. And that's just bullshit. If Aaron Sherman, Jesse Jordan, Daniel Peng, and Joe Nievelt are indeed guilty of the RIAA's allegations, then they're guilty of violating other people's rights without reason or justification, solely for their own benefit. And that behavior should never be celebrated.

If you're trading copyrighted works, you're breaking the law and violating people's rights. If you feel fine about that, that's your prerogative. But stop whining about what file-sharing isn't. It is stealing. It is unlawful distribution. Claiming otherwise doesn't support your position. It just proves your ignorance. And it's difficult to respect someone's actions when he hasn't gone to the trouble of understanding them.

Some K5 responses I've read:

Why should I buy CDs when I can get them for free?

So if the police, tomorrow, announce that they will stop enforcing shoplifting laws, will you stop paying for clothes? Technically, it's still stealing. But by your logic: "If I can get away with it, why shouldn't I"?

If you're going to file-share, that's your prerogative. I drive over the speed limit all the time, and I wouldn't want another civilian bitching at me about it. My point isn't to talk you out of doing something. My point is, you should at least be mature and responsible enough to acknowledge what you're doing. Until you are, it's difficult to take you seriously. Your argument is basically, "It's easy, so it must be OK." And that's pretty stupid.

kitten writes:

When I'm forced to special order CDs from a warehouse, that signifies to me that the owner of the song is no longer really interested in making money from it, and therefore, I don't see what the problem is with my downloading it.

Well, then you've either missed or ignored a major point: CONTROL.

You apparently think you have a "right" to obtain anything you want -- and if it isn't easily found for sale, then it's OK if you steal it. So your favorite '80s record isn't available anymore. You don't think the artist or record company has the right to pull a product from the open market?

The phrase "forced to special order" clearly implies that you're not a fan of independent artists, so I'll assume you're not going to pretend that you care about their interests. 99% of the music I buy is independent. Much of it, I've never seen in any record store, anywhere. I buy CDs online, and from mail-order advertisements usually placed by the artists themselves. Saying "forced to special order" is like saying you were "forced" to drive to the next town to avoid shopping at Wal-Mart. Those of us who do it, do it with pride.

For the sake of argument, let's take your example a step further. Let's assume that the album in question isn't available, anywhere -- at retail, online, or from used CD sellers. You're arguing that (a) because the album isn't available, the artist isn't losing a sale; and (b) by taking the album out of circulation, the artist essentially "forced" you to download it. Again: Control, not money, is the primary motivation behind copyright. (Money follows as a result of control.) Copyright law grants an artist the right to decide that he doesn't want to distribute his album any further, regardless of whether there happens to be another person who would like to own it.

godix writes:

As you point out, major labels have slashed their jazz division. Other than P2P, where else am I going to get jazz if that's what I want?

If you're sincerely interested, email me and I'll send you about a hundred links. For the record, all but the real underground albums are available at Amazon, CDUniverse, HMV.com, etc. Most smaller labels are actually quite hip when it comes to the online marketplace. Failing that, unless you live deep in the heartland, there's probably a store nearby with a knowledgeable clerk or buyer.

But again: If every jazz artist and record company decided to fold up tomorrow, copyright law says they can. You have no "right" to acquire jazz CDs. I think it's great that you want to, and I wish you luck...but if you use P2P, you're probably violating someone's copyright.

localroger writes:

My main objection is that, overwhelmingly, it's not about the artists controlling their music; it's about the RIAA controlling their music...

You're right. But the RIAA exercises that control only after it has been contractually assigned to them. I could have written "copyright owner" every time I made that reference, instead of artist; but (a) "artist" was easier, and (b) for most of the music I listen to, the artists do own the copyrights.

And that's part of the point: to illustrate that file-sharing violates the rights of independent artists just as it does the RIAA. Yes, there may be artists like Janis Ian who don't mind, because they welcome the attention. But we shouldn't ignore the rights belonging to half a group just because the other half is willing to throw those rights away. After all, that's our argument against the PATRIOT act, isn't it?

j harper writes:

...studies have shown that P2P downloading is not the overarching cause of the decline in recent music sales.

I don't believe it is. I have little sympathy for the RIAA's "music sales statistics." First, they began protesting P2P by misrepresenting a decline in sales growth as a decline in sales. Second, their profit strategy is based on selling the same products, repackaged. LPs became cassettes, and cassettes became CDs, and the customers lined up to buy replacements for their old favorites. The RIAA has kept CD technology at a standstill, while every other technology in our culture has flown past. They continue to furiously repackage: "digitally remastered," "previously unreleased tracks," etc. There's a very legitimate argument to be made that P2P's is Darwin's "natural selection" eliminating the RIAA, which has refused to evolve.

You're absolutely right: the RIAA gouges everybody. If the RIAA crashed and burned tomorrow, I'd be happier than most people, because then my favorite artists might get more attention. Breaking the RIAA's stranglehold on the music industry is a laudable goal. But we shouldn't pursue that goal at the expense of Constitutional copyright law. "To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries." I believe in that, and I believe it's worth preserving. And that's my bottom line.

Sponsors
Voxel dot net
o Managed Servers
o Managed Clusters
o Virtual Hosting


Collocated UNIX Server
$65/Month
o Root on your own FreeBSD or Linux server
o Very fast, triple-homed network
o NO hardware or setup fees, unlimited support
Testimonials from K5 Users

Login
Make a new account
Username:
Password:

Note: You must accept a cookie to log in.

Related Links
o suing
o shut the students down
o lawsuits
o complaints
o burn
o media attention
o piracy
o drops the term
o visit
o Merriam-Webster
o underhanded
o tactics
o Aaron Sherman
o Jesse Jordan
o Daniel Peng
o Joe Nievelt
o kitten
o godix
o Amazon
o CDUniverse
o HMV.com
o localroger
o j harper
o Constitutional
o More on Music
o Also by cribcage


View: Display: Sort:
RIAA vs. Captain Teach | 518 comments (482 topical, 36 editorial, 0 hidden)
This is yet another outrage (none / 0) (#516)
by funklord on Mon Apr 14th, 2003 at 06:26:57 PM EST
(funklord_ta_myrealbox.com)

How many times do people need to have it explained to them that piracy is not theft,
they are fundamentally different concepts of ownership transfer.

A thief takes something from the previous owner, which in turn loses his possession.

A software pirate (in worst case theory) takes a percentage of software sales away from the author/owner. No loss of possession takes place in this matter, therefore it is not theft.

The reality however is quite different, the concept of copyright is deprecated, controlled by old fashioned laws.
    According to some people like the RIAA and software federations we should be paying in "lease type" forms for our media. (be it software, music or movies)

The idea that media sales have decreased due to piracy is fundamentally flawed, since so many more factors affect this kind of statistics than sales/yr.
When media industries have been earning money as most, it's been during higher economy times, and due to very much bigger advertisement budgets and larger channels to the customer (the internet for information retrieval wasn't always an option, and thus TV and other controlled forms were predominant)
Thus, their number of sales today are a lot higher than one would ever expect. (due to the free advertisement gotten from the many forms of piracy)

People simply don't want any more britney spears, backstreet boys, nor the never changing form of commercial rap.
In the UK this is most notable, since if people are unhappy with the types of music on offer, they create new ones themselves. (looking at the amount of professional artists)

Offer us something we want, on an acceptable media, at a reasonable price, you will see sales rise drastically.

For example CDs are a very good media, and offer top quality sound, as long as they aren't made incompatible due to copy protection schemes.

The DVD video on the other hand is not a very good media since it's increased complexity and demand on playback hardware. due to once difficult and today laughable region/copy protection schemes and closed encoding codecs. This makes the choice for a tech savvy person very simple, copy and reencode the movie into a free format (and technically superior) like xvid and ogg/vorbis in which case it'll fit on a CD, or several movies on one DVD and playback possibilities in the future are safe since the format is free and open for everyone and price is non existant.
Basically, when buying a DVD, part of the sales need to go to:
Author
Distributor
Advertisement
Macromedia
MPEG

And of course those unintelligent copy protection designers/consultants.

Why are we paying for all this?

Advertisement means that we don't really need the product.

Copy protection schemes mean that we are frowned upon as ignorant fools who will pay to make their received media worse.


It has to stop somewhere, either we will copy it, disregard it, but sure as hell still won't buy it unless it meets our needs and demands in all areas.

Piracy prosecution = speeding cameras (3.00 / 2) (#507)
by CAIMLAS on Thu Apr 10th, 2003 at 04:42:53 AM EST
http://benjamin.hodgens.net

The concept of prosecuting nearly the entire populace for piracy is about as unjust as the speeding cameras used in much of Europe, or any other type of device that automates sending you a ticket.

But speeding is dangerous and can kill people, you say. I say, so do cell phones, so does eating and drinking in a car, or even holding a conversation. They're equally as dangerous, yet only speeding is illigal (and punished). Why is that?

It's because they can. This is what is called a "police state" - "A country that maintains repressive control over the people by means of police". The RIAA is just that, if not in name then in function. They're attempting to use P2P networks (and other htings like them) to further their gasp on the control of both citizens and the musicians which they supposedly serve. The technology behind P2P networks drive their thirst for power. They didn't complain too loudly when there were just as many people downloading full albums from FTPs or HTTP servers. They respond now because of the potential for further control - centralized items are easier to control than thousands of non-connected items.

There are more people that 'pirate' music than those that don't, just like hardly anyone obeys speed limits. If they do, it's ususally for fear of a speeding ticket.

Laws only work when people are willing ot obey them, and that usually only happens when people see the sense behind those laws. The comparision to the US alcohol prohibition is a good comparision. Organized crime took a terrible hit at the end of prohibition, because there was no longer any market.

It's almost always an indication that there's something wrong with either the underpinning mores of the society being in dire conflict, or a restrictive and contradictive law. It might very well be both, but it most certainly is the latter.

But what they did wasn't wrong! (3.75 / 4) (#505)
by mcrbids on Thu Apr 10th, 2003 at 01:35:26 AM EST
(useless adt benjamindsmith dot com) http://www.effortlessis.com

These students may or may not have been sharing files - but they did so using Microsoft File Sharing!

Their "magic tool" was simply a search engine that crawled open SMB (Windows File Sharing) shares on the local network.

In short, these guys wrote a search engine for Files on people's hard drives! It wasn't just "copyrighted marterial", it included (among other things) word documents, windows .DLL files, the whole shooting match!

So, perhaps google is next?

The line of "file sharing" == "piracy" has gotten rediculous. When you print a file on a network, you are "file sharing".

And, when you actually get the facts, the colors aren't so black and white.

downloading from kazaa, p2p, napster and the like (5.00 / 1) (#501)
by ibbie on Wed Apr 9th, 2003 at 05:08:18 PM EST
(ibbie can receive e-mail at death-star.com) http://xanga.com/ibbie/

plenty of artists release music on their websites via mp3. some even release entire promotional albums using this medium.

downloading that kind of music is just fine. when they released them into the wild, it was of their own volition. hence, this is not stealing.

downloading an album which is being sold in stores, whether it's by song or by ISO, is stealing.

why is this so hard to grasp?

i would just like to state for the record, that personally i don't give a flying crap if someone downloads one, or a million songs. as a matter of fact, i hope you do. just download the pop songs, the mainstream crap that keeps me from buying a radio, and leave the talented artists alone. (:

--
george washington not only chopped down his father's cherry tree, but he also admitted doing it. now, do you know why his father didn't punish him? because george still had the axe in his hand.
I can't believe this made it on K5! (2.00 / 2) (#496)
by Lethyos on Wed Apr 9th, 2003 at 02:21:11 PM EST

How on earth does an article like this get posted to the front page of K5!  The author of this piece is doing little more than mimick the RIAA's lawsuit, a lawsuit that is not only flat-out wrong technically speaking, its logic is severely flawed.

I highly suggest that everyone here at least skim over this analysis written by an understudy of Edward Felton -- a man who knows a lot more about logic and the law than the author of this article.

What these students were guilty of, is running a service that is fundamentally no different from Google.  If you think that's worthy of a 100 billion dollar lawsuit, you're insane.

earth, my body; water, my blood; air, my breath; fire, my spirit
Stop spreading FUD (4.00 / 4) (#490)
by richieb on Wed Apr 9th, 2003 at 08:41:40 AM EST
http://www.netlabs.net/~richieb

Let's be clear from the beginning. If the RIAA's complaints are accurate, these kids are plain, run-of-the-mill idiots. They weren't simply trading files; they were running independent networks, allowing massive numbers of people to trade files. Specifically, the RIAA is charging that the four networks distributed 27,000 files, 500,000 files, 650,000 files, and over a million files, respectively. That's a hell of a lot of pirated music. To use a common analogy: These four were dealers, not simply users.

You article maybe well reasoned, but you are starting from some flawed premises. For example the student accused of sharing 650,000 files was actually running a local search engine that indexed all files available on people's shared drives within Princeton network.

See the analysis here.

Are you saying that it is a copyright violation to run a search engine?

...richie
It is a good day to code.
Why would I care ? (2.00 / 2) (#489)
by Eivind on Wed Apr 9th, 2003 at 07:36:26 AM EST
(do_not_spam@ekj.vestdata.no) http://ekj.vestdata.no

All you are doing is arguing that using p2p to download or share copyrigthed music is illegal with current American copyrigth-law.

Question is, why should I care ? Why should anyone ? It is a fact that millions of people share copyrigthed music with eachothers by way of p2p and other methods. This was true 10 years ago too, only then it was called "casettes".

Technology makes sharing easier, so people do more of it. Hardly surprising. The RIAA can adapt, or simply become irrelevant. Personally I guess I find their current course a-ok, they're heading firmly for the cliff.

Are these cases truly P2P? (4.33 / 3) (#466)
by lpret on Tue Apr 8th, 2003 at 06:03:29 PM EST
(chinpokemon)

Look at the programs that are under scrutiny. They only help to make searching the network faster. This is like saying that google.com is an evil P2P program because it allows you to search for music faster -- just simply ridiculous.

Also, the network is used for other types of files as well, which means that the network is not used solely for music-sharing. Microsoft could be sued as well under these circumstances, as the integration of the search function in the OS clearly facilitates faster searching of files on other computers. It's ridiculous.

In these cases, there is no way that the RIAA could actually win, and I'm looking forward to them losing. That is to say if they actually get to court, because I bet this was all one big scare tactic for some settlement outside of court.






A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in. - Greek proverb
what is the k5 obsession with wordiness? (1.85 / 7) (#456)
by dh003i on Tue Apr 8th, 2003 at 01:00:30 PM EST
(dh003i@<REMOVE THIS>mail.rochester.edu) http://www.kuro5hin.org/user/dh003i/diary

Look, this entire tired article could have been compressed down to about three or four paragraphs. Why the hell do self-righteous jerk-offs like this guy feel the need to speak in round-about philosophical terms? I had trouble staying awake while reading this.

It comes down to this. You may or may not think that sharing copyrighted files is immoral. That doesn't matter. What matters is reality. Reality is that millions of people are doing this, and nothing the RIAA or MPAA does is going to have any significant impact on it. P2P software will get better, more anonymous, etc. These businesses will be in trouble if they don't change their business model. It's called evolution. Whether they make it or not is of no concern to me, especially since this will ultimately be beneficial for music and culture. There is an entire generation of children growing up with file-sharing and P2P being part of their lives. This is becoming universal in our culture.

These tired moral arguments are as irrelevant as the moral objections of XXX-tians who think that homosexuality is "wrong". No-one cares and it isn't going to do anything.

Mises.org, the cure for the statist thinking of Republocrats and Demopublicans.
what is the k5 obsession with wordiness? (1.71 / 7) (#455)
by dh003i on Tue Apr 8th, 2003 at 01:00:12 PM EST
(dh003i@<REMOVE THIS>mail.rochester.edu) http://www.kuro5hin.org/user/dh003i/diary

Look, this entire tired article could have been compressed down to about three or four paragraphs. Why the hell do self-righteous jerk-offs like this guy feel the need to speak in round-about philosophical terms? I had trouble staying awake while reading this. It comes down to this. You may or may not think that sharing copyrighted files is immoral. That doesn't matter. What matters is reality. Reality is that millions of people are doing this, and nothing the RIAA or MPAA does is going to have any significant impact on it. P2P software will get better, more anonymous, etc. These businesses will be in trouble if they don't change their business model. It's called evolution. Whether they make it or not is of no concern to me, especially since this will ultimately be beneficial for music and culture. There is an entire generation of children growing up with file-sharing and P2P being part of their lives. This is becoming universal in our culture. These tired moral arguments are as irrelevant as the moral objections of XXX-tians who think that homosexuality is "wrong". No-one cares and it isn't going to do anything.

Mises.org, the cure for the statist thinking of Republocrats and Demopublicans.
Several thousand CDs of independent music (2.50 / 2) (#452)
by Pac on Tue Apr 8th, 2003 at 12:00:09 PM EST
(pauloc@nospam.please.pobox.com)

I own several thousand CDs of independent music

I didn't even know there were that many CDs of independent music out there. But then again that is not my point. My point is that I am in doubt if you are single or just filthy rich. Because I know my wife would throw me out of the house if I insisted in maintaining several thousand CDs of unknown, mostly bad music around. My several hundred sci-fi and tech books are already a rich point of discussion.

Evolution doesn't take prisoners


Major Flaw (2.50 / 6) (#449)
by ScuzzMonkey on Tue Apr 8th, 2003 at 11:14:43 AM EST
(indigo_67a@excite.com)

Despite some otherwise well-reasoned arguments, this entire article blew its credibility by trying to drag out the old saw 'downloading files is stealing.' Plenty of people have already pointed out that this is not true; but for me, anyone who makes that fundamental mistake doesn't really have a handle on the issue of infringement and isn't much worth listening to. One of the major things to be discussed is how, in fact, file-sharing differs from theft and what impact this has on both producers and consumers. To simply blow by it and fall into the meme-trap of 'file-sharing=theft' avoids a lot of what makes up the real issue of on-line file-sharing.

I guess what is disappointing is that this comes from someone who elsewhere says "File-sharing isn't a simple issue." Too true... and how unfortunate that the same person has oversimplified it to suit themself.


No relation to Happy Monkey (User #5786)
this might not be piracy (or Google beware) (4.00 / 2) (#446)
by caridon20 on Tue Apr 8th, 2003 at 08:55:54 AM EST
(lynxx at computersociety at lth, sweden)

Joe Barillari, a computer science student studying under Prof. Ed Felten, posted an legal analysis on his blog:

http://barillari.org/blog/2003/04/07/#riaa-vs-peng

It is worth a read !!!

/C
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes
while talking about constitutional copyright... (5.00 / 3) (#427)
by ph0rk on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 10:03:56 PM EST
(ph0rk@no.spamming.thanks.schizoid.com) http://fork.schizoid.com

Our current laws aren't.  

Your arguments are all sound, but your discussion of what is legal and what is not is too personal, to fine-grained.

Filesharing is a herd phenomenon, and the aged lion who takes a few stragglers only makes the herd move, he doesn't kill it.

Filesharing is by and large a reaction to percieved mistreatment, price fixing, gouging, and a host of other things.  

Whether or not it is illegal, or it is wrong, it will most likely continue.  The RIAA will only make themselves look even worse by these lawsuits. (Honestly, a hundred billion dollars? who the hell do they think they are, Dr. Evil?)  Can they even pretend to show losses of even a thousandth that amount directly from the sharing done by these four students?  Of course not, it is merely a 'fuck with them' lawsuit, which by the way, are illegal normally (SLAPP, i believe they are called.)

Unless they stamp out all the sharing geeks and participants in one fell swoop, they will only grow, and complicte, and dig in.

.
[ f o r k . s c h i z o i d . c o m ]
if I were you (2.00 / 1) (#426)
by gdanjo on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 09:33:28 PM EST

If the record companies were smart, they would lower their anti-piracy/marketing budget at the same time as lowering CD prices.



Dan ...
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder
Ugly is in the eye of the observer

You're just a little biased, I take it? (2.75 / 4) (#417)
by NoMoreNicksLeft on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 07:09:00 PM EST
(crapola100@hotmail.com) http://24.125.76.224:8000

In any event, do your best to intimidate people now, and brainwash kids growing up, because technology has a trump card.

I reserve the right to arrange the bits on my hard drive in any pattern I see fit. And I'd like to see a whiny asshole and RIAA minion like you do something about it.

Let me tell you a short story. Some unknown networking hobbyist wakes up one morning with an inspiration. Using mostly "off-the-shelf" VPN software, it would be possible to create a very, very large routed network, where it is virtually impossible to identify more than a handful (6 or less, in some setups only 3) of people. They are completely anonymous, with all sorts of international extradition and search warrant snafus to prevent the RIAA from shutting it down. It's small at first, but it grows. So even if the RIAA convinces some idiot to let them connect, they can browse it all they like, but they can't even figure out who to sue. And little weasels like yourself whine and bitch forever after, but no one listens. THE END.

--
Build an internet incorruptible by corps and goverments.
MetaNET
"Hey brother... (4.20 / 5) (#400)
by opendna on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 05:12:50 PM EST

...can you spare 98 Billion dollars?"

"With my debt you could invade Iraq!"

"I owe RIAA $300 for every American man, woman and child."

"Dear VISA, I regret to inform you..."


"...but that's above my pay grade."
ignorance... (3.00 / 3) (#393)
by xo0m on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 04:50:49 PM EST
http://www.xo0m.com

"If you're trading copyrighted works, you're breaking the law and violating people's rights. If you feel fine about that, that's your prerogative. But stop whining about what file-sharing isn't. It is stealing. It is unlawful distribution. Claiming otherwise doesn't support your position. It just proves your ignorance..."

ignorance is bliss :)

on finding 'independent music' (4.66 / 3) (#390)
by Work on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 04:39:59 PM EST
http://themachine.2y.net

What a crock. I use kazaa lite, which is the largest network, and finding anything not popular or semi-popular is a crapshoot.

I hunt for rare remixes and electronic tracks by one off groups or combinations of certain groups. These tracks are usually out of print or had only limited distribution. Most of the time, kazaa doesn't find them. On the rare occasion it locates someone with the track, it usually says 'Needs more sources'.

If p2p music download advocates want a good argument, they'd better make sure its actually true before spewing it.


-Agents, an amusing game of espionage and backstabbing. Web-based, no download or plugin required!-
Right and Wrong (3.85 / 7) (#384)
by Gravaton on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 03:54:59 PM EST
(gravaton@earthling.net)

Here's my opinions on this whole thing, with two major ancillary points added for no charge!

Saying "we shouldn't pursue that goal at the expense of Constitutional copyright law" has to be one of the most foolish statements I've heard of late (yes, above and beyond those damn protesters). Would you have said the same thing to the civil rights movement? The women's sufferage movement? And what the hell ARE all those amendments on our Constitution there for anyways? I always thought that the whole idea of having a Constitution and a lawmaking process like we do was for the purpose of allowing people to shape their society into somewhere that they want to live.
So you're right, I do violate the law. But my violation of the law is a form of civil disobediance. I refuse to bow to a system that is so blatantly unjust. I commit my acts of piracy in hopes of dismantling a disgusting socioeconomic system. Saying I shouldn't because it goes outside the bounds of our current laws is simply rediculous; they can buy what laws they desire, but I can't protest what laws I don't?

Stop giving the RIAA money damnit!
Do you know how many CDs I own? Zero. Not a single music CD exists within my dominion. Do you know why? Because I despise the RIAA and everything its stranglehold on music, artists and taste stands for. Buying a single CD is tossing my money into their pockets and supporting the system they enforce. I don't give the RIAA a dime, and if you actually care about all the lip service you give to disliking them and wanting them gone, you shouldn't either. I mean think about it, they're making money hand over fist. You bought their CDs before. Now, filesharing comes along, and you buy MORE of their CDs, and are proud of it somehow. Then they prosecute the filesharers, instill the fear of God in all who oppose them, potentially net billions from them, and still you buy their CDs. Boycott goddamnit or quit your bitching.

The Morality of "Digital Stealing"
This is a rather hard topic considering the digital nature of the media. If I copy a file, you still have it (a point that has been raised before) so the only person who really suffers is the provider of said file (assuming they charge money). But this raises the question of whether the paradigm of "Charging money for information" is still really relevant. The entire idea is, whatever we make of it, slowly starting to break down as the Internet and other mass mediums start to reshape our culture. It doesn't matter if it's a bad thing or a good thing, it's happening.

Requirements (3.60 / 5) (#380)
by bugmaster on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 03:37:29 PM EST
(bugmaster(nospam)@earthlink.net)

For me, it comes down to a simple matter of requirements, and quality of service. Here is what I would look for in a digital music distribution system:
  • Legality. Well, duh. RIAA: 1, pirates: 0, free mp3 sites: 1
  • Fast, reliable servers. I should be able to download what I want, whenever I want, at close to maximum bandwidth. RIAA: 0.5, pirates: 0.5, free mp3 sites: 1
  • A good search system. I want to find complete, unbroken music files, at the bitrate that I require, with the names/artitsts/etc. of my choosing. Preferably with lyrics, if there are any. RIAA: 0.5, pirates: 0.5, free mp3 sites: 0.5 (google is your friend, lyrics-wise)
  • Ownership model. When I download a song, I should be able to play it where I want, how I want, on whatever device I want, whenever I like, until the end of time. RIAA: 0, pirates: 1, free mp3 sites: 1
  • Single track downloads. When I want an album, I'll ask for it, thanks. RIAA: 0.5, pirates: 1, free mp3 sites: 1
  • No ads. If I am already going to pay money for this service, I don't want to be bombarded with britney spears popups. RIAA: 0, pirates: 0.5, free mp3 sites: 0
  • Cheap price. I am not paying for physical media anymore, so I expect the per-song price to be cheaper than the CD. RIAA: 0, pirates: 1, free mp3 sites: 1
  • Customer satisfaction. I want to be treated like a valued customer, not like some criminal who needs to be watched at every step. RIAA: 0, pirates: 1, free mp3 sites: 1
Totals: RIAA 2.5, pirates 4, free mp3 sites 6.5 (unless my math is wrong...)

What does this mean ? This means that I will use the free mp3 sites (such as mp3.com or OCRemix) for most of my music downloads. I will use the pirate networks to get some songs that I can't get elsewhere, despite the hassle. I won't buy CDs or use RIAA's ridiculous attempts at digital distribution, unless hell freezes over.

This model works for me because music is really not a large part of my life -- I am no audiophile by any means. I expect that people who are more interested in music would go with the pirates, because of the larger selection.

If RIAA really wants my money, it should deliver a service that I (or any other average person) can comfortably use. This is not really about ethics; this is about supply and demand, pure and simple. If the RIAA wants to keep its outdated CD sales system, more power to them, but then they should not be surprised that their revenues are dropping.
>|<*:=
Response to a bad law (4.45 / 11) (#374)
by kphrak on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 02:41:50 PM EST
(kphrakSPAM@worldofschmittSUCKS.com) http://www.worldofschmitt.com

It may be the law, but in this case it doesn't benefit the sciences and useful arts. I see nowhere in the Constitution the words "To promote the progress of Columbian drug dealers, by giving RIAA executives the massive wads of cash necessary to support their cocaine habits."

OK, seriously. Although the author has spent a good deal of time crushing the arguments of freeloaders who are copying the latest Britney single, the final argument is a resort to legalism: "It may be bad, but it's the Constitutional LAW, so it must be obeyed." Nonsense. Others have chipped in and this is always a big debate, but almost everyone, even the author, agrees that the law is bad.

Martin Luther King, quoting St. Augustine, states that an unjust law is not a law at all. Rather than make society fit a law, a law needs to fit society. If it doesn't benefit us (I refer to "us" meaning "not RIAA", because they are clearly the only ones who benefit), then we have not just a right, but a civic duty to disobey it. Obeying something unjust only gives it support that it has no right to in the first place. Disobeying it is a patriotic thing to do; the US was formed, among other reasons, as a result of laws we broke due to their lack of justice or benefit to our society (think tea parties).

Granted, that's pretty cold comfort to students being butt-raped by the RIAA, but perhaps the cold will numb them into a blissful state of oblivion as they are made a spectacle for the public by being relieved of more money than they will probably ever see in their lifetimes. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have some "civic duties" to perform.


Describe yourself in your sig!
American computer programmer, living in Portland, OR.
In KC, I get no love from the radio. (4.00 / 2) (#370)
by Jaritsu on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 02:17:34 PM EST
http://www.nopj.com

Until I started listening to NPR, I used to just completely disconnect the FM antena to prevent people riding in the car from turning on the radio to some godforsaken top40 piece of shit radio station, of which we got about 8.

In the last say, 2 months, I have downloaded MP3's as a means to preview CDs I purchase. I have grabbed The new CD from Sixpence, Plumb, Massive Attack and Jason Mraz this way.

This is how I operate, I heard Jason Mraz on Letterman, and liked the sound, went and previewed a few MP3s and grabbed his CD at Barnes and Nobel.

Illegal? Surely, but Jason Mraz made his margin or profit from my purchase that I would never had made without KazaaLite.

MP3's can be ripped to sound almost as good as redbook audio from a CD, but rarely are. So personally, I prefer either the CD or MP3s I have ripped myself. I keep the MP3s inside, and the CDs in my car.

Don't get me started on clearchannel and the RIAA

"Jaritsu, have you stopped beating your wife yet?" - Kintanon
Elitist (3.20 / 5) (#365)
by auraslip on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 01:55:59 PM EST
(shelby@shelbyjenkins.com) www.shelbyjenkins.com

"Invariably, they start rattling off names of pop artists who, to them, sound distinctive -- J.Lo, Puff Daddy, Dave Matthews, Eminem, etc. If it doesn't follow the pop formula, people simply don't want to hear it."

bastard.

Just becuase an artist is successful doesn't mean they follow the same formula as J.Lo.
___-___
re: RIAA (3.66 / 3) (#362)
by m0rpheus on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 01:36:20 PM EST
http://dark5tar.dyndns.org

  the amount of damages being sought by the RIAA is ridiculous: $97.8 billion. i know they are trying to make examples of people, but that is just ridiculous. if these students were truly running their own p2p applications inside the school's firewall then they are similar to kazaa/morpheus which the RIAA attempted to sue before. I can no longer find record of this anywhere, but I read that one of the programs was simply a program that scanned public Windows Shares and then catalogued the shared files. If that is true, then I feel the RIAA is well out of line in suing that person without also going after the company that makes the public sharing possible: Microsoft. which will most likely never happen. IMHO, the only way to stop file sharing really would be to disable people's ability to download files, which means no viewing webpages since they are downloaded to a cache, which would be insane. this may be a bit extreme in thinking, but i am just trying to make the point that file sharing is pretty much going to be impossible to stop, but the RIAA is hoping they can scare enough people into not doing it.
   as a software developer i am somewhat sensitive to the issue and i think that it should be available as an option to evaluate things so people can see how good your product is and then go buy it. even at that level it will still be abused, but i don't think it should be stopped because of those that abuse it. i recently downloaded the new linkin park album a week before it came out because i wanted to hear it real bad and my pre-order was going to take at least another week-and-a-half to arrive and i also wanted to make sure my order was worth the money that i was paying for it and, luckily, i felt it was. my major disappointment with the album is that taking out the intro track and the sesion mix track it is only about 30 minutes long, but it was still worth the $15 i paid because i got the version that came w/a dvd loaded w/extra footage. i think using file-sharing for instances such as that should be allowed because once you shell out the money for a cd and listen to it, you can't return it to the store anymore (at least ones that i know of). you just have to trust that your fans will do the right thing and reward you for the hard work you put in on the album.
   i just wish they'd offer music at much more affordable prices ($10-12 instead of $15-20, which would be easier to do if they didn't pay clearchannel to play the songs 50 times a day, didn't spend millions and millions of dollars to try and protect the cds with protection that can be broken using a sharpie,and didn't waste money on some other stupid advertisement gimmicks, e.g. mtv) and allow me fair use of it also. i really like being able to listen to a cd to make sure it's worth the $15  that it usually costs (except for the rare lucky deals found at bestbuy and other places) and if it isn't then i delete it. The new DRM stuff they're adding which requires windows media player 9 to use in your computer screws me because i run linux and it will be unplayable w/o breaking some law so i can put it on my portable mp3 player so i have something to listen to while i run (cd players are a bit bulky to run with).

thats just all my 2 cents tho...

Major label Ligeti (4.83 / 6) (#348)
by x31eq on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 12:22:37 PM EST
http://www.microtonal.co.uk/

In that middle of that article, we had the statement "You won't find Ligeti or Lutoslawsky on any major labels."

Now, I'm not sure how it relates to the general argument, and I know it isn't that important in the greater scheme of things, but it's completely untrue. I only had to search Amazon to find Ligeti CDs on D G, Sony and Elektra.

When people are disparaging of major label offerings on online fora such as this, can I assume that they're systematically blind to offerings such as these?

Oh, I don't know who this Lutoslawsky is, but while you're looking you could check out the excellent composer Lutoslawski who has a confusingly similar name. The first hit on Amazon has a distinctive Philips cover, I haven't checked the rest.

I like it (4.30 / 13) (#346)
by cola on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 12:19:26 PM EST

I particularly like the way the opening paragraph looks like an anti-RIAA post. "The RIAA is crushing college students like popcorn", new paragraph, "and they deserve it!" Then this theme recurs with the fourth paragraph, and there is a pretty repetition: another descent into attack.

The invention of spurious arguments ("P2P is the only way" and "We only wanted the single") is masterfully performed. And cribcage improves on this traditional technique by refusing to say what the arguments prove. They're just arguments. Those music pirates, they're always arguing.

"Both arguments, of course, are jokes." Well, yeah. I think they're supposed to prove that copyright infringement is legal. Is cribcage talking about the legality of infringement or the morality? That calculated ambiguity has hooked about ten people, all saying "LEGALITY in THIS CASE is not IMPORTANT."

"I own several thousand CDs..." Probably true; cribcage's homepage is a jazz magazine. He might be a reviewer. There's a heartfelt rant about how stupid the tastes of music fans are. Then trolling, to a high standard, about CD singles. (Well, what about the prices? And that gets ffrinch to bite.)

(I wonder: why is '"Duh."' in quotes?)

If you can't laugh at a spirited attack on Robin Hood, dear reader, what can you laugh at?

In a nod to Dubya, who popularized funky moral principles, cribcage says "...They're guilty of violating other people's rights without reason or justification, solely for their own benefit. And that behavior should never be celebrated."

Finally, cribcage explains to the assembled readership why everyone who disagrees with him is an idiot.

Not that I'm complaining. I just don't think trolling is appreciated enough. I mean, if you don't know anything about modern rhetorical techniques, newspapers can infect you with really dangerous memes. And trolling cannot be really accomplished unless you 'check your facts before posting', to make sure that they are glorious, unrestrained, and wrong; so it requires a grasp of the subject, experience in the field, and other good things.

Lightening up on trolls. For tomorrow.

The "right" to get music (5.00 / 20) (#344)
by Sloppy on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 12:14:01 PM EST

But again: If every jazz artist and record company decided to fold up tomorrow, copyright law says they can. You have no "right" to acquire jazz CDs.
I think there is a good argument (based on the spirit of the law rather than the letter) that either that "right" exists, or the copyright doesn't.

In USA, copyright exists because the Constitution says it should, in order to promote the arts and sciences. It's not a natural law; it's something society created in order to fulfill a useful purpose. If the purpose of a copyright is defied by its holder, then that copyright loses its legitimacy. If you're not willing to sell me the CD, then your copyright on that CD does not serve to promote the arts. Copyright is a quid-pro-quo deal. Why should society grant you a privilege if society doesn't get anything out of it? No quo, no quid.

If a musician doesn't want their music to be available (and there might be some very legitimate reasons for this), then they shouldn't publish it or otherwise seek the deal offered by copyright. Then copyright never comes into play and their music is effectively just a secret.

While I generally support copyright, I am in favor of its violation in cases where a work is so poorly marketed, that obtaining it becomes unreasonably difficult. (Alas, I have no objective definition for "unreasonably difficult.") This policy, I feel, is perfectly in keeping with the purpose of copyright, and the spirit of the law.

That said, I think that a lot of music can be found if you're willing to do a little digging. Whenever RIAA goes after traders (as opposed to toolmakers) I have little sympathy for their "victims." If RIAA is after you, then you're probably trading RIAA products, and that stuff tends to be relatively easy to obtain without violating copyright -- especially when it turns out to just be recent pop. And if you're trading tens of thousand of files (as opposed to putting up a web page with a few songs from some garage bands in some foreign countries) then recent pop is invariably the stuff you're trading. I've never seen, or even heard rumors of, an exception to that.
"RSA, 2048, seeks sexy young entropic lover, for several clock cycles of prime passion..."
Granularity of punishment, and reciprocity failure (4.88 / 18) (#326)
by Dr. Zowie on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 11:13:18 AM EST
(k5_mail@deforest.org)

I'm glad to see this article up -- after the discussion on the other site, I wanted to see a bit more debate here.

Regardless of right and/or wrong here (and both sides do have both strengths and weaknesses in their point of view), the problem is that law is the wrong tool for affecting behavior on these scales.

Law is meant to deter certain behaviors (e.g. killing people indiscriminately, robbing banks, etc.). But, as Greenspan pointed out in his recent remarks on the rule of law and copyright, it's impossible to enforce a law against even a significant portion of the population at once -- the court system is just too inefficient (and for good reason!).

The result is that many laws that are designed to deter common behaviors have ludicrously stiff penalties: by really walloping the few people that the authorities can catch and prosecute, legislators hope to increase the average deterrence of the law -- there's some sort of reciprocal relationship: (deterrence) = (number of ppl caught) * (amount of punishment for each). But there are limits to that notion -- in particular, there's no real difference between the threat of charging a college kid $97,000 or $97,000,000 -- those fines are beyond the kid's experience.

One sees the same thing in the drug war (where penalties are ludicrously stiff already but people continue to smoke pot) and numerous other examples that are less cogent.

I call it "reciprocity failure" by analogy to a similar phenomenon in photography -- where very low light levels cause the film to react differently to each individual photon than at more moderate light levels.

The lesson I take out of this observation is that it's impossible to enforce copyright -- as it stands today -- via court of law. The law itself is not sufficiently deterrent to combat the individual temptation of file trading. As with the drug war, attempts to enforce widespread compliance with the law will only increase the amount of tyranny in the nation, without providing real justice or deterring the behavior that they're meant to prevent.

The remaining way to increase the deterrence of law is to improve the efficiency of law enforcement. But that way lies madness: more efficiency in law enforcement means more authority for individual police officers, more control over civilian population, and fewer checks on the process. In short, a more totalitarian state. I'm not kidding here -- the drug war provides many examples of what happens when enforcement is increased to achieve a particular end. Individuals are demonized, privacy is invaded (on all levels from increased surveillance of individuals to near-universal drug testing in the workplace -- does anyone else here remember the Nancy Reagan years?) The drug war did not completely reduce the U.S. to a totalitarian state -- but neither did it stop (or even significantly curb) illegal drug use.

It is not worth the trade to me to descend into fascism for the sake of copyright holders' wealth.

Regardless of right or wrong in the case of the michigan students, or the strawman justifications of the file traders (that the article author debunks so well), I believe that the best strategy for copyright holders really is to come up with a new business model that recognizes file trading as a permanent feature of the landscape. The current model -- using artificially augmented scarcity to raise the price of their intangible goods -- just won't work. It relies on the deterrence of law to prevent widespread duplication of their intangibles, and in the digital era that deterrence just isn't enough. The only legal remedy would involve removing a significant part of what freedom we still enjoy -- it's just not worth it.

Why I use P2P (3.00 / 5) (#323)
by randinah on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 11:06:03 AM EST

Quite simply, the biggest and most overwhelming reason for me to use services such as Kazaa is because CD's are too damned expensive.

In what way is a CD really worth twenty to twenty five dollars? Especially when literally a handful of change is actually going to the artist.


"Why waste time learning when ignorance is instantaneous?"
sacrilige (3.16 / 6) (#312)
by Prophet themusicgod1 on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 10:16:05 AM EST
(themusicgod1@hotmail.com) http://themusicgod1.moonside.org

first of all, before i even begin...please open your eyes and relaize that music is not being stolen - as in... when i copy a music file, YOU still have a copy...there is no physical loss, in fact the human collective has suddenly agained value, if it were possible to make such a statement...the metepohr comparing it to a superstore/clothing/if police were to studdenly stop proscecuting theft is faulty:   NO i would not...because shirts and clothing are made of fabric, which is in finite supply...it takes mass to produce, and you cannot imaginably just copy one shirt ifrom almost thin air into two shirts. if i could do that with shirts...YES i would...nevermind solving world hunger...
now THERE is a problem where people like you should sink your teeth into...<BR><BR>
<i>The immediate response: "We're helping bands. Artists rarely profit from albums, anyway. They profit from touring, and sharing their music online helps promote their shows." Well, that's a very polite argument, Robin Hood. Record companies may hoard album profits for themselves; but right or wrong, what they're doing is legal, and what you're doing isn't. And whatever your motivation, whomever you may be "helping"...stealing is stealing. Just because you feed the poor doesn't mean you're not stealing from the rich.</i>
fair enough, that makes me a theif.  a just theif, and a theif who is stealing the right things... and being a good person, as opposed to a person defending a bloodthirsty system that steals from everyone, not just cushy lawyers and millionaries who could loose a few spare dollars that they earned from ripping the rest of us off, anyway...
<BR><BR>
i never saw anywhere in the US constitution, or the Canadian charter of rights and freedoms, or the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights that guarntees us the rightto keeping others from copying information about us....perhaps you are reffering to a privilidge...????
<BR>
<i>"We're helping artists. Increased exposure is good." </i><BR>
if you did a search for Jeff Cliff on AudioGalaxy...you would have came up fwith around 30-35 results...including just about everything i've ever put out into digital, and a few other things...<BR>
and you are going to tell me that your local Sam the Record man is going to have a clue who some poor guy from Saskatoon  sakatchewan Canada is, an whether or not you will like him????
<BR>
"I can think of any number of reasons why an artist might not want his music shared online. "</i>
name one, under this thread.
<BR><BR>
<i>
"Maybe he feels embarrassed by the quality of an early album"</i>
well then create BETTER QUALItY ALBUMS. problem solved.  don't restrict our freedoms because of your own personal failures.  be a better musician, and we'll talk.  and besides, some hardcore fans like having 'really bad songs'/etc just for the novelty of it
[ie a good portion of ummagumma, and a video of reznor and patnera, for example of my found jewels...]...
<BR>
"Maybe he's decided to change direction, musically, and he doesn't want continued circulation of his older works.
" so in other words he's the equivilent of a Stalin, Censoring us from "bad" ideas.  shame
<BR><BR>
" Maybe he feels that MP3 compression unacceptably distorts music, and he doesn't want his songs distributed in that format."
THEN DISTRIBUTE THEM YOURSELF IN OGG!!!! or alternatively...push the mp3 compression committee people to put out 640, 1200 and 30000 kb/s bitrate standards, and record on them...
and secondly on this topic... don't assume that alll of us have the stereo equipment necessary to handle this sort of thing anyway...hell vynil is still better than most mp3  if not all mp33 formats...but i have a record player from the 70's that has no bas, no stereo, etc...should that make using a record player illegal unless it has full quality digital ddts doldby surround sound?  that's insane...
<BR><BR>
" Hell, maybe he originally released 64 copies of an album as part of a conceptual performance artwork, and expanding its circulation will somehow violate the integrity of that work."
that i think is a really flimsy excuse...but i can't find any way to defeat it yet.  are you REALLY going to sue people billions of dollars because it violates some artists performance art?...come on... i'd hope most artists out tther have enough humanity to understand when their art isn't is important as other people's food and shelter...etc...
<BR>
<BR><BR>i hope the rest of the intelligent people out there pull this article to peices, bit by bit, until everyone sees what a farce it is...
"I suspect the best way to deal with procrastination is to put off the procrastination itself until later. I've been meaning to try this, but haven't gotten around to it yet. "-swr
Illegal <> unjust (4.80 / 10) (#310)
by snitch on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 10:13:26 AM EST

It seems to me your core argument is that sharing copyrighted material is illegal - "case closed".

I won't overstate the opposing argument by quoting past laws which everyone's glad to be rid of (just one for argument's sake: the law forcing blacks to ride in the back of busses). Most, if not all laws have a clock attached to them; i.e. once they're outdated they simply vanish.

Copyright-laws in their current form are archaic, and cannot be maintained, simply because technology has provided people with an easy way to circumvent them. This is a fact of life, and whining about "ye olden days" won't change anything.

P2p isn't going to go away, and people will find sufficient justification in freely sharing copyrighted material in the amazingly unjust pricing of CD's (I doubt there are many artists who see even 1% of the profits of a CD-sale), the ridiculous stranglehold of the majors over all the media (resulting in homogenous crap drowning everything even slightly different from the norm), and the lies, deceit and aggression of the RIAA and other watchdogs.

P2p will keep flourishing, becoming more and more anonymous, and people will keep sharing, resulting in the death of middlemen: majors, distribution, retail. Only artists and listeners will remain. What's wrong with that?

Filesharing of copyrighted material and stealing are, of course, very different: stealing deprives the owner of the stolen object, filesharing doesn't. That's not to say I don't consider myself 'wrong' in downloading someone's hard work for free... I do.

Just give me a simple, straightforward way to directly and exclusively compensate an artist, and I will do it. A direct donation of €3 to an artist (about the profit he or she would receive from the sale of ten CD's) would surely compensate for nine other p2p-users who wouldn't? And if it didn't, someone could calculate the fair amount, and I would pay it. But I won't pay a dime on top of the price an artist should get now that I have p2p.

As for the RIAA, we seem to agree that it should seize to exist immediately, for the good of all (except RIAA employees... tough).

I admit I've stopped buying CD's, simply because there's (finally) a way to circumvent the injustice of €20 CD's: p2p. The lesser injustice of depriving the artist of his 30 eurocent is easy to remedy by online means. It's up to artists to provide a way - just charge the startup-investements to the listeners, I won't mind the 10 eurocent on top for a couple of years.

For the record (no pun): I've collected about 400 CD's, and about 500 12"'s for DJ'ing (which I do for free). Most of these 900 records are indie releases, ranging from medieval and classical via early industrial, experimental electronics, symfo and EBM to "cut & paste", breakcore and Japanese noise. I've spend the better part of two decades and €10000 collecting this stuff and expose as many people as I can to "other music" (via DJ'ing, spreading CDr's, and p2p). What do I gain from this except personal satisfaction? There's no money, no hidden agenda, no deceit at work - just the pure joy of sharing something dear to me: good music.


"Against his heart was a thesaurus bound in PVC. He smiled at the entrance guard." - Steve Aylett
Morals? Whose morals? (4.50 / 4) (#299)
by grzebo on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 09:40:22 AM EST

RIAA clearly takes the approach of twisting the current legal system they way they want through lobbying, using legal loopholes, etc. I don't see why people shouldn't do the same by breaking an unenforceable law. When a country is ruled by an oligarchy, civil disobedience is the only way to go. Since everyone is playing by RIAA's rules, they have no reason to whine.


"My God, shouts man to Himself,
have mercy on me, enlighten me"...
A Question for Smart Europeans: (4.33 / 3) (#294)
by ti dave on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 09:19:17 AM EST
http://ti_dave.lickmy.org/

Two posts in this story are asserting that the Danes and the Norwegians have the right to distribute one-off copies of copyright-protected works.

Now, considering that Denmark and Norway are signatories to the 1952 and 1971 Universal Copyright Convention, as well as the 1971 Berne Convention, how can this be correct?

Endorsed by the American Taliban Association

Personal Note To RIAA / BPA (4.66 / 3) (#287)
by meaningless pseudonym on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 08:25:34 AM EST

Black Sabbath - Heaven and Hell
Deep Purple - Made in Japan, In Rock, Deep Purple
Def Leppard - On Through The Night
Dio - Sacred Heart
Eden Burning - Mirth and Matter
Emerson, Lake and Palmer - Pictures at an Exhibition
Guns 'n Roses - Appetite for Destruction
Iron Maiden - The X Factor
Primitive Instinct - Floating Tangibility
Queen - Greatest Hits 1 & 2, A Night At The Opera, Sheer Heart Attack
Radiohead - The Bends
Rage Against The Machine - The Battle of Los Angeles
Rainbow - Difficult To Cure, Long Live Rock 'n' Roll
Semisonic - Feeling Strangely Fine
Whitesnake - Saints & Sinners

Each and every one of those albums was _bought_ by me as a direct result of one of:

* Borrowing a friend's copy then recording it
* Borrowing a copy from a library and recording it
* Borrowing someone's MP3s
* Listening to bootleg recordings.

There's also a large extra collection of albums by those artists where what's on the list there is only what first got me into them and where I've bought lots more since. Checking, I've got 23 albums from Deep Purple alone.

I probably average 2-3 album purchases a month. That level of spending requires I learn about new bands. I have to find out about them from somewhere and recommendations / loans from friends / MP3s are an excellent way of doing this. Recognise that students never have much money to spend on this sort of thing but make more money later so by letting them do this you're letting them promote your music for you in exchange for sales down the line.

Stop me doing this and I'd have probably bought half what I've had over the years, tops. You don't want that.

A modest proposal (4.20 / 5) (#281)
by synaesthesia on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 07:44:01 AM EST

I propose that we (the people) co-opt the word 'terrorism' for what the RIAA is doing to these students, just as they have co-opted the word 'piracy' for copyright infringement.

It's topical enough that it might just stick.
And I think it's reasonable, whichever side of the debate you're on.


In my opinion, we ought to make all sex illegal except for people who can pass a gruelling seven-hour Star Trek trivia quiz, and their chosen partners. - adequate nathan
Don't let it bother you, all the GOOD music is (4.00 / 1) (#279)
by gr00vey on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 06:57:23 AM EST

free, anyway! http://www.dozin.com/

Definition of stealing (4.87 / 8) (#276)
by squigly on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 06:04:05 AM EST
(squigs@postmaster.co.uk)

Surely this depends on definition of "take".  If I take something, does this suggest the other party loses possesion of it?  

But really, that's beside the point.  "Stealing" is used unfairly.  

The reason stealing is illegal is not that the thief gains something for himself.  It is that the victim loses something that he had the right to.  

Very good argument, but we fundamentally disagree. (5.00 / 2) (#271)
by arcade on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 05:21:00 AM EST
(arcade79@hotmail.com) http://arcade.kvinesdal.com/

Your argument are well reasoned and well put. That however, does not make us agree. It seems to me that I have a totally different perspective on things, than you do.

To take some theory first. As I understand it, copyright was first created as an incentive for artists, writers, and so forth to create MORE. It was very time limited, and was created for the benefit of society as a whole, not just the creator.

Furthermore, the reasoning behind copyright, and how it works, is different from country to country. There are some international agreements and so forth - but its up to each and every country to implement it in their laws. As an example, in Norway it is legal to give a copy of a CD to a friend, as long as you bought the original. You may not, however, give away a copy of a copy. Setting up an FTP-server where you share out _only what you've bought yourself_, and only giving access to close friends could arguably be legal in Norway (but IANAL, so take that with some grains of salt ;)

That was the basic. Now, your argument is well reasoned and well put - from a US standpoint. But as I said, we have some fundamental disagreements.
- First of, I do not personally accept laws I think are unfair. Whether I break them or not will depend on my mood of the day, or how much I disagree with them. When it comes to copyright laws, they are laws I really don't consider worth following all the way. Sure, I'll give credit where credit is due - but thats about it.
- Secondly, if someone pisses me of, I do not support them, at least not with money. RIAA/lots of labels pisses me of. Their attempts to lobby for laws, their attempts to make uncopyable CD's, their blatant disregard for users of non-mainstream operating systems (for computer playback).


The question that most often pops up now, is "how is the artist going to make money when you have that kind of attitude?" . There are several ways. Live performance, donations, government grants, selling CDs (which will still be bought by thousands of fans), and so forth. Personally I still buy music from artists I like - as long as they are not on a large lobbying label. The bottom line is that there will still be very possible to earn lots of money as an artist.

--
"Rune Kristian Viken"
arcade@efnet - http://arcade.kvinesdal.com/
Just a repeat (4.50 / 8) (#267)
by Rot 26 on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 05:01:44 AM EST
http://itsbeenconfirmed.com

Musicians had a fit when player pianos came out because they thought they wouldn't be able to make a living.

Musicians had a fit when records first were made.

Musicians had a fit when radio stations started playing records

Musicians (and the RIAA) had a fit when making tapes at home became widespread

Now musicians (and the RIAA) are having a fit because digital music storage became widespread.

What this shows is that so far the music industry has consistently been resistant to new technology. At the time of the dispute it has always seemed to many people that the musicians were right that this new technology would ruin them, but it never has and most of the time in fact it has instead helped the musicians.

Musicians made a living before records existed and they would continue to make a living if "the record industry" were to collapse and all music became freely sharable and downloadable. In fact, musicians today would not only be able to make a living like musicians in the time before records, it would in fact be much better. To the artists the real money always has been and I assume always will be in performing concerts for and selling merchandise to their fans. Even for huge superstar musicians such as Britney Spears this is true.

"Piracy" as the RIAA calls it, does not hurt musicians, it hurts "the industry". That's why "the industry" basically supports "anti-piracy" tactics unilaterally while the artists who speak out about it are really few and far between.

--
Life is like an escalator, steps are born and steps die and in the middle it's slow and boring.
If you ever wanted mindful drivel, this is it.
Prina facie wrong. (4.83 / 6) (#264)
by ghjm on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 04:48:42 AM EST

If Aaron Sherman, Jesse Jordan, Daniel Peng, and Joe Nievelt are indeed guilty of the RIAA's allegations, then they're guilty of violating other people's rights without reason or justification, solely for their own benefit.

"solely for their own benefit" - hardly. They already had their own huge MP3 collections to listen to. How do they benefit from outting their collections online? It's an altruistic act, so that other people can have what they have.

"without reason or justification" - again, hardly. In the context of a pro-IP screed, there can be no possible justification for any copying ever, including giving a copy of that Britney Spears album to even just one other person. But this is not the only context, and there are reasonable justifications of the anti-IP position.

Copyright Law (5.00 / 17) (#263)
by Nucleus on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 04:42:21 AM EST

But we shouldn't pursue that goal at the expense of Constitutional copyright law....I believe in that, and I believe it's worth preserving.

I believe it's worth fixing...

Copyright laws are out of control. The original copyright term was 14 years. It is now 70 years after the death of the author, which is ridiculous and contray to the whole point of copyright which is "To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries." How does 70 years after the authors death promote that author to create new works. "Limited times" was specifically added to prevent CONTROL of something for too long because that then becomes and infringement on the freedom of others... this is especially true is areas where new knowledge is created by building on older knowledge which is in the public domain, OpenSource GPL'd software being a prime example.


Socialism when necessary but not necessarily socialism.
Capitalism when necessary but not necessarily capitalism.

The law is not immutable. (5.00 / 13) (#262)
by ghjm on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 04:37:12 AM EST

The law derives its legitimacy from the consent of the governed, or if you prefer, the will of the people. Lecturing us on today's law is spectacularly uninformative. It is not interesting precisely because it is current. The law as codified today reflects the will of the people of yesterday.

Clearly there are some people who believe that any unauthorized copying is theft. Clearly there are also some people who do not believe that trading MP3s is morally wrong. What are the relative sizes of these groups? What are their growth patterns?

Also note that in order to affect something, you have to engage with it. Shrill condemnation of all file traders as thieves is not an effective way of engaging with the mass of people whose opinions you want to change.

-Graham

Change in paradigm needed (3.50 / 2) (#250)
by heng on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 03:46:20 AM EST

Ultra-Wide Band. Here for some good info.

My musician's impression (5.00 / 4) (#249)
by xL on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 03:42:41 AM EST
(pi@madscience.nl) http://lab.madscience.nl/pim/

The impression I have of music copyright violations, as a musician, is really not different from my perception of warez as a programmer. I really like your article because it offers a very good point: MP3 and warez are equally infringing. This seems opposite to the common perception. Lots of people with a very strong position on the author's rights where software is concerned (screaming wolf when a company apropriates GPL code, itself a 'victimless' crime) take an easy stance on MP3s.

All the cost-based approaches towards self-justification of rampant copyright violations among MP3 junkies fail to take a point into consideration, one that they are less likely to forget when discussing GPL software: That of business model. People who easily accept that not all software can equally fit to the GPL model seem not to accept that not all music can fit to the "get your money through tours" model that they mentally make up when defending their downloading habits.

Most music distributed by the major record labels has, through history, become increasingly dependent on professional recording, production, post-production and mastering. Generally speaking, this effect counts double for music that becomes wildly popular. Getting production done right on that level is a very costly enterprise. Studiotime does not grow on trees.

The point can also be illustrated from the movies. High-budget films like Independence Day have a market. This market cannot exist if the revenues for such a venture don't flow back. Yes, independent films like _The Blair Witch Project_ can be shot at a microscopic fragment of the budget of Hollywood movies, but they are of an entirely different genre and style that do not fill the same market segments.

The people who sneer triumphantly against record companies for failing in a market on which they are spewing low quality crap are being elitists who miss the point: It is the rampant copyright violations on exactly this "low quality crap" that they are getting their panties all in a knot about.

Where MP3 and warez meet, is that the black market they make up, when its size is kept under some form of control, can actually play an enabling role for the sale of the works involved. This implies selective enforcements, concentrating the efforts to get an equilibrium where there is an optimum balance between potential new sales due to this effect and loss of sales due to black market availability.

Piracy of Windows 3.1 among home users has done wonders for Microsoft, has oftenly been stated. The same effect is probably there in music, although less strong (entertainment is purely a consumer thing, there are no corporate buyers worth considering). The balance the RIAA is seeking is one where the average John Q. User has to face a threshold (of inconvenience, fear or technical control) when seeking freely downloadable "mainstream" pop music that is high enough to keep revenues up.

I don't like this line of reasoning (5.00 / 13) (#247)
by blisspix on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 03:31:11 AM EST
http://www.blisspix.net

You don't think the artist or record company has the right to pull a product from the open market?

No, I don't believe they do. Too many works have disappeared due to companies being too greedy to print enough copies of albums to keep them in print, thus forcing people to head to the second-hand or rarities market for sought after items.

The same has happened with books. Thousands of books printed at the start of the last century are lost forever, but the companies still have control and thus they have effectively disappeared. Could you imagine if today's copyright law applied in Shakespeare's era? We wouldn't have his plays now.

I am pro copyright, but also pro archiving. As a librarian, I am fully in favour of legal deposit, which all owners of copyrighted works should take advantage of. Legal deposit states that you should deposit at least 2-3 copies of a work with the National Library (here in Australia) or with the Library of Congress (in the US). Unfortunately, it's still largely a voluntary system so a lot of things pass under the radar. But this system means that a lot of works will be available even after works go out of print.

I believe that once a work has been out of print for say 10 years that the copyright should have the option of releasing the master tapes or galleys for public reproduction.

If you produced it, you should live with the reality that your work will be out there FOREVER. You can't physically recall or destroy every copy if you suddenly decide that your first album was crap.

ahem (3.50 / 8) (#246)
by YelM3 on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 03:23:05 AM EST

Fuck the RIAA.

The recording industry has been screwing the public and the artists since the beginning.

I imagine in the old days, music was free because you heard the actual instruments with your own ears on the street corner, or you payed admission to a performance. Whoever dreamed up the idea that it is OK to charge people ten or twenty times more than the cost of production for a recording of someone else's music was in it for himself, for his profit, and thats all.

Fuck the RIAA. Fuck the artists too. So what if new technology destroys the industry and prevents the artists from using the same old exploitative means to market and mass-distribute their music? You know what? Music is not going away. We will find a better way, and in the process we will do away with the homogenized hegemonic pop culture that is mainstream music.

I hope that the industry does crumble. After all, why is it that everyone is so eager to steal music these days? Is it because people are inherently greedy and evil? Or is it that they live in a consumer society which constantly affirms to them that they do not have enough and that they would be happier if they did? Everyone knows (consciously or otherwise) they are exploited constantly by profiteering corporations in this culture. Of course we are going to take as much as we can grab, given half the chance.

If the music empire is destroyed by this, it will be poetic justice. And hopefully a wakeup call.

Commentary. (4.66 / 6) (#242)
by kitten on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 02:33:24 AM EST
(kitten@mirrorshades.org) http://mirrorshades.org/wc

You apparently think you have a "right" to obtain anything you want -- and if it isn't easily found for sale, then it's OK if you steal it.

It isn't just "not easily found" - sometimes it's downright impossible, or prohibitively expensive. A lot of stuff from the 80s (or any other bygone era) is out of print - my "legal" options then are to spend a weekend hunting around in specialty shops or used record stores, hoping they'll have one album with the one song I want, then shelling out however much money to get an album full of songs I don't want, just so I can hear the one-hit-wonder song that's been stuck in my head for a few days.

I don't think so.

And exactly who am I "stealing" from? The artist? The band doesn't exist anymore. The individual members may or may not get royalties - they probably don't. Or if they do and the particular song I'm looking for is out of print, they wouldn't get the money anyway.
The label? Hey, they're the ones who made the thing unavailable or ridiculously difficult to get. And once again, if the album is out of print, they wouldn't see the money anyway.

Finally, you're ignoring the fact that in cases like these, where the music is old or from a defunct band or a one-hit-wonder, I would not buy the album. Period. It isn't worth the time, expense, and hassle. So they aren't going to see a dollar of my money regardless of whether filesharing is available or not. If it is available, I'll download the song, and they might get a new fan. If it isn't available, then I won't, but either way, my dollar stays in my wallet.

The phrase "forced to special order" clearly implies that you're not a fan of independent artists, so I'll assume you're not going to pretend that you care about their interests.

I don't understand how that follows.

You don't think the artist or record company has the right to pull a product from the open market?

Fine, they do. And when they do, that says to me: "We are no longer interested in trying to make money from this product."

At that point, what are my legal options? Go to a used record store? Well, the RIAA or the artist won't be seeing that money either, so what the hell do they care? Am I "stealing" from Nintendo if I go spend eight dollars on an old 8-bit NES console from a garage sale? If not, why?

There's plenty of ways, as RobotSlave pointed out, to obtain things other than paying the original producer. I could barter for an item, for example - and filesharing does just that: You let me have a couple mp3s, and I'll let you have a couple of mine.

Saying "forced to special order" is like saying you were "forced" to drive to the next town to avoid shopping at Wal-Mart. Those of us who do it, do it with pride.

Gimme a break. The people that do this sort of thing bitch endlessly about how they were "forced" to drive fifteen miles out of their way; WalMart "forced" them to do this because WalMart put all the little shops out of business, and our hero has "no choice" but to inconvenience himself so he can stick it to The Man.

Again: Control, not money, is the primary motivation behind copyright. (Money follows as a result of control.)

Money is the primary motivation behind just about everything. Control is merely a byproduct. And the artist himself doesn't have much say. If his album is doing fantastically well, but he decides he's embarrassed by it, the record label is going to keep selling it - they want more money. And on the flip side, if the arist is proud of his work but it just isn't selling, the label is going to pull it - regardless of what the artist wants. It's about money, not control.

Copyright law grants an artist the right to decide that he doesn't want to distribute his album any further, regardless of whether there happens to be another person who would like to own it.

Then copyright law is flawed. You cannot put the toothpaste back into the tube - once it's out, it's out. As noted above, the artist doesn't have that much control of the distribution of his work, but even if he did, once it's been introduced to the public, there's no way to just take it back with a quick technical fix.

.kitten.
"What a piece of work is man..
In action, how like an angel,
In apprehension, how like a god."

Awww... that's too bad. (5.00 / 2) (#236)
by tang gnat on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 01:44:54 AM EST

I'll just have to use another filesharing network then!

Anyway, it won't be long before some people treat information piracy as a sort of civil disobedience. "Like dude, the establishment is wrong in regulating the private interactions of people." Then they'll have a Piracy Pride day, and a TV show about pirates called W1LL && grayz. Eventually the social stigma will be broken down, peoples' minds will be freed, and the pirates can come of the closet. I have a dream ... Yarr! Thar be some mighty fine music over there!

That, or the RIAA will put some serious pressure on, slowly crushing the P2P movement. That would take active regulation of the internet, mind you. Quite difficult.

A quote (3.50 / 2) (#233)
by tang gnat on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 01:24:11 AM EST

Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what's right - some random sci-fi author.

I would add in this case: never confuse the law with what's right.

Free Joe (4.50 / 2) (#231)
by jon787 on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 01:01:54 AM EST
(nospam@tesla.resnet.mtu.edu) http://tesla.resnet.mtu.edu/

http://freejoe.servemp3.com/
Huskies do it doggie style!
This industry is pathetic (3.66 / 3) (#219)
by glauber on Mon Apr 7th, 2003 at 12:04:49 AM EST
(mailfrom.kuro5.20.glauber at spamgourmet dot com) http://www.autocheck.com

If we were very lucky, all these recording companies would fail, and then we'd be forced to play our own music, as it used to be done before. Who knows, maybe we might have some original music again.


glauber (PGP Key: 0x44CFAA9B)
I can't imagine what those students are facing. (4.57 / 7) (#196)
by zipper on Sun Apr 6th, 2003 at 10:40:10 PM EST

I can't imagine what it feels like to be staring at the wrong end of a 97.8 billion dollar lawsuit. That's an almost cartoonish number... oh, who am I kidding, that IS a cartoonish number.

So turn to humor. Share and enjoy a bumper sticker and a tshirt design to draw attention to it. Before you bitch and complain about the designs, it's a joke. I don't take myself that seriously.

Point, laugh, and extend one glorious digit to a cartel that's abusing laws it bought. Requesting six times more money than they earned last year? More money than these students put together can even hope to achieve?

Riiiiight.

---
It's called a tangent. I get off on them.
How's the view from that high horse? (3.33 / 6) (#189)
by CaptainSuperBoy on Sun Apr 6th, 2003 at 10:10:22 PM EST

Why don't people realize that these moral arguments against P2P are meaningless? It doesn't matter that it's wrong, people will still do it, and there is no technical way to prevent it. End of argument.

--
Sig needed. Say something clever.
Multiple problems here. (5.00 / 13) (#165)
by ubernostrum on Sun Apr 6th, 2003 at 07:58:20 PM EST
(james at ubernostrum dot dyndns dot org) http://ubernostrum.dyndns.org

First, you've erected a straw man:
The file-traders' bottom line is pretty simple: "We hate the RIAA." Their two most common arguments are:
  • "We need P2P, because the RIAA and Clear Channel control the radio. Everything on FM is the same, and P2P is the only way we can discover independent music."
  • "The RIAA isn't losing any sales. Most of the songs we download are just singles we heard on the radio. We only wanted each single, so we wouldn't have bought the complete albums, anyway."
I don't think that's a particularly accurate characterization of the position.

Second, you misunderstand copyright law:
But the basic point misunderstood by nearly every file-trader is that copyright law isn't designed to protect money. It's designed to protect control. By file-sharing an artist's copyrighted music, you are violating that artist's right to control his own work.
That's how it works in Europe, where copyright is considered a "moral right" and authors have the right to control the integrity of their work. But in the United States, copyright is not designed to "protect" anything; it's designed to encourage the sharing of ideas. By granting you a temporary and carefully circumscribed monopoly on distribution, we gain the benefit of your thoughts and ideas.

Third, you propagate a popular myth about copyright:
For the record: Any unauthorized distribution is a violation of copyright law, whether or not you profit from it.
This is factually inaccurate; fair use exceptions do allow for unauthorized distribution in some circumstances.

Fourth, you again misunderstand the nature of copyright:
If you're trading copyrighted works, you're breaking the law and violating people's rights.
There is no "right" involved, despite recent ad hoc attempts to justify intellectual property as "property", e.g., on a Lockean basis. In the United States, copyright is a privilege, granted for a limited duration and with limited scope by the government. It is under no circumstances a "right".

Finally, you appear to be woefully ignorant of modern coyright statutes:
Breaking the RIAA's stranglehold on the music industry is a laudable goal. But we shouldn't pursue that goal at the expense of Constitutional copyright law. "To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries." I believe in that, and I believe it's worth preserving. And that's my bottom line.
Copyright law has moved far beyond the scope intended in the Constitution, and with the ruling in Eldred v. Ashcroft, the Supreme Court may have given Congress the green light for the final demolition of Constitutional copyright via perpetual copyright "on the installment plan" -- twenty years here, twenty years there. Also, please note again that the intended purpose of copyright as named by the Constitution differs wildly from your repeated and erroneous assertion that "control is the primary motivation behind copyright".

And that's just what I found in five minutes of skimming your article; if I went back and dug out my sources (I spent six months last year researching the legal and philosophical aspects of copyright for a paper), I'm sure I could point out more problems, but this is enough. -1.


-------
"You cooin' with my bird?"
Good old American ingenuity... (5.00 / 3) (#149)
by pb on Sun Apr 6th, 2003 at 07:04:43 PM EST
(pbaylies@yahoo.com)

The RIAA is seeking the maximum legal penalty -- $150,000 for every copyrighted work that was downloaded. If successful, the students would lose something in the neighborhood of a hundred billion dollars.
It's a good thing the RIAA has decided to move away from businesses and start prosecuting where the real money is--college students. And at $150,000 a song, that's almost twice as much as the "value" of the E911 document, which was actually worth about $13, while a song generally sells for $1 or so. Yes, with a 2600% inflation rate, this is one of the fastest-growing segments of frau...err, criminal justice yet!

...so, when can we expect the RIAA to start their own law firm? Even if they just donated 1% of the proceeds to the US government, I think we should be able to erase the national debt in no time! And if we could get them working with the ICC, we should be able to collect trillions and trillions of dollars overseas, since there is so much more piracy there, and many college students as well!
---
"See what the drooling, ravening, flesh-eating hordes^W^W^W^WKuro5hin.org readers have to say."
-- pwhysall
Huh? (3.33 / 3) (#143)
by TurboThy on Sun Apr 6th, 2003 at 06:50:07 PM EST
(thy at it dot edu) http://quovadis.dk

You apparently think you have a "right" to obtain anything you want -- and if it isn't easily found for sale, then it's OK if you steal it. So your favorite '80s record isn't available anymore. You don't think the artist or record company has the right to pull a product from the open market?
Yes, they have the right to stop their sales. And if they aren't interested in commercializing their IP anymore, then what harm may come from my leeching it over LimeWire? If they don't want me to have it, then they bloody well shouldn't have published it first place.
__
All that matters is if Liberians would be better off under US marital law... [godix]
Copyright is a privelege though, not a right... (4.50 / 6) (#133)
by loucura on Sun Apr 6th, 2003 at 06:31:20 PM EST

Copyright was originally a compromise between the needs of the society to have new content to advance the society, and the needs of the creators to make a living off from providing that content.

Not to say that copyright isn't important, but that copyright isn't a right that you have. You don't inherently own ideas that you have. You only have ownership of those ideas so long as society deems fit to recognise the ownership of them.

Copyright is a social contract, originally designed to give incentive to those creative people to create it.

Now, as for my assertion that copyright is a privelege, those Rights that we commonly assume to be Rights (In the United States), are ennumerated in the Amendments to the Constitution. Copyright is not mentioned in these Amendments, it is mentioned in the Constitution so far as to provide Congress with the power to determine the length of copyright term.

Congress can continue extending them, or (hypothetically) could make copyright a week, or not existant. In such a circumstance, it's impossible (as far as I'm concerned) to consider Copyright anything more than a privelege.

I have a proposal (3.16 / 6) (#104)
by Filthy Socialist Hippy on Sun Apr 6th, 2003 at 05:59:24 PM EST
(NotThisBit_filthy_socialist_hippy@yahoo.com)

One of the rationales behind file sharing (or viral theft as I like to call it) is that as the Evil Corporate labels usually hold the rights, the artists don't really have any say in it.  You're not hurting them, and they're only saying that it's bad because they're being paid to do so.

Tell you what, how about we put these students in a room with a few dozen artists, throw in some baseball bats, lock the door and leave them to it for half an hour.

Does that sound like fair way of finding out how much the artists care?

--
leftist, you don't love America, you love what America with all its wealth and power can be if you turn it into a socialist state. - thelizman
Freedom of Culture and Information (3.28 / 7) (#83)
by cronian on Sun Apr 6th, 2003 at 05:34:57 PM EST
(aim:cronian)

The corporations who control TV and radio exercise great control over what culture and information people are able to see. I don't see why I should be forced to watch their propoganda (commercials, news, war coverage, etc.) simply to access the popular TV shows and music.

Some might argue that I could simply avoid these things, but they are a part of culture, and I will probably require alternatives. Why should I be forced to support a few large corporations or go through extraordinary effort for something our society deems essential.

I fully support P2P networks because they allow people to ween themselves from a system of propogandistic support of a few large corporations. People can listen to music or watch popular tv shows and movies without supporting the any of these large corporations in actions both small and large. P2P networks help to provide a needed check on attempts to stifle free expression.

Some things are obvious but it's not obvious what is obvious
Competition for the RIAA (4.14 / 7) (#70)
by werner on Sun Apr 6th, 2003 at 05:20:49 PM EST

For years, the RIAA has been ripping off its customers. While they have cut costs by moving from cassette to CD, we have paid more, and we know it.

Now that there is an alternative in the form of P2P networks, ripped-off music buyers are understandably using it. The RIAA is in a panic, as any monopoly would be. Instead of finally learning to respect their customers, they would rather alienate them further by demonizing and prosecuting them.

The RIAA will never catch up with P2P - as soon as everyone is on freenet-like networks, they will be chasing shadows - so their only option is to start giving their customers what they want. They must compete.

If you think about it, it wouldn't be so hard for them: offering high-quality recordings for download is simple, charging for them is simple (PayPal, CC, monthly subscription etc.). They could clearly offer a convenience beyond that of any P2P, especially freenet. Throw in some content - tour dates, interviews, forums - and the RIAA could have the stickiest website in the world. They only have to get the price right.

There is no reason why the RIAA cannot marginalize P2P sharing, but not with their current tactics. Their only option is to compete.

Don't need file-sharing. (3.12 / 8) (#53)
by CaptainZornchugger on Sun Apr 6th, 2003 at 04:57:32 PM EST

The industry gave us a perfectly suitable, inexpensive alternative. Why are you people still whining? I'm far happier with the music industry right now than I ever have been.


Look at that chord structure. There's sadness in that chord structure.
Another thing, too. (4.12 / 16) (#50)
by valeko on Sun Apr 6th, 2003 at 04:53:17 PM EST
(sasha[at]presidium.org) http://www.presidium.org/valeko/

Another thing I always mention in any debate about digital file-trading is that some of us have a principal interest in music that lies way, way outside of RIAA's jurisdiction or field of interest. About 80-90% of the music I listen to isn't Anglo-American, and has absolutely no relation to the RIAA, or any recording studios or enterprises or subsidiaries (even of BMG) in Europe. You can moralise about how trading it might be ethically wrong, but the fact remains, the RIAA doesn't own it, doesn't produce it, and hasn't any financial interest in it. At least, it shouldn't act like it does.

I enjoy a lot of contemporary pop from Central Asia and Mediterranean countries (chiefly Turkey), and old (Eastern) European music that is almost certain not to be copyrighted, as well lots of other stuff from that esoteric realm. Many of the songs I download come from countries where "piracy" is just barely short of a state-sanctioned enterprise -- Russia being the first example I can think of in terms of the music I have personally. When Napster and Audiogalaxy came along, I was elated that I could find such obscure music; things that wouldn't appear anywhere on this hemisphere, let alone in shoppes or from vendors of any kind. It connected me with an entirely different world, some of which I knew before as a child.

But then the assholes at the RIAA had to shut both of these excellent services down. I have an entirely different, very personal reason for being angry as hell about this; I don't want to pirate RIAA's music! I don't want Britney Spears, Eminem, Radiohead, or Smashing Pumpkins -- I'll get compilation CDs of the latter from the store if I really wanted. But, I don't want their stuff! I'm not part of the demand.

Most Americans, I suspect, aren't aware of the immense bloom of foreign music availability that came with the arrival of Napster, and later Audiogalaxy. Suddenly there was interesting music from all over the world available, not just popular stuff from English-speaking countries. A lot of oldies, a lot of songs from long by-gone eras now. When Napster died, all of the "foreigners" that toted such wares went to Audiogalaxy, and for a while all was well. But then it was decided that every song on AG by default was "copyrighted" by "the industry." In my opinion this constitutes a kind of theft from the world's cultural heritage; almost no artist in my music collection has ever sang or played for the RIAA's money, yet they've basically "privatised" their work.

That's my personal reason for sticking it to the RIAA. They took something from me that isn't theirs. I don't care if they copyright their Eminem or Britney Spears or Blink 182 -- I don't want it! Just leave me alone and let me trade music that you don't even know about, let alone didn't produce!


-- Valeko, Spiritual Technologist
In your summation of the file-traders' arguments. (4.09 / 11) (#40)
by valeko on Sun Apr 6th, 2003 at 04:31:27 PM EST
(sasha[at]presidium.org) http://www.presidium.org/valeko/

I think you missed possibly the most important one, which is somewhat related to #2: The artists aren't getting paid anyway. Except for Britney Spears and other synthetic creations of the entertainment industry in the first place, the contracts that artists must make (as illustrated by Courtney Love) with the recording giants constitute complete rape. The company grosses hundreds of millions on CD sales, while the artist gets a basic income that isn't really big enough to be a statistically significant part of the profits.

In other words, by eating into the RIAA's revenue, you're not hurting artists, but only the megacorporate recording companies that exploit them (but which you must go through if you want to have any remote chance of success in "the business" whatsoever - hence monopolists). Whatever money you're taking away in "sales" wouldn't have gotten to the producers of the content anyway, but would've just lined Bertelsmann's or Warner Brothers' coffers. That's a pretty solid argument for trading popular music, but it takes the willingness to put the determination of "fairness" into your own hands, and out of the conventional wisdom about intellectual property rights.


-- Valeko, Spiritual Technologist
Unfair... (3.75 / 12) (#39)
by dipierro on Sun Apr 6th, 2003 at 04:30:32 PM EST
http://slashdotsucks.com/

You have to be pretty stupid to do that sort of thing, today. Think about it: These kids watched Napster burn in flames, courtesy of RIAA lawyers. They watched KaZaA become the next big thing -- and presumably, if they were savvy enough to set up their own P2P networks, they were well aware of the media attention haunting KaZaA.

Was Rosa Parks "stupid" for refusing to give up her seat to a white man?

Hi. (4.28 / 7) (#35)
by ubernostrum on Sun Apr 6th, 2003 at 03:02:28 PM EST
(james at ubernostrum dot dyndns dot org) http://ubernostrum.dyndns.org

If you're trading copyrighted works, you're breaking the law and violating people's rights.

As a philosopher with an interest in rights theory, I've always wanted to see a justification of copyright as a "right" that holds up. Do you happen to have one?


-------
"You cooin' with my bird?"
Refreshing (4.36 / 11) (#33)
by j harper on Sun Apr 6th, 2003 at 02:18:49 PM EST
(jharper@nospam.hotpop.com)

It's refreshing to see the other side's opinion once in awhile.

However, I must point out that you entirely skipped the other two reasons people are involved in file sharing: the RIAA gouges the consumer, and the RIAA gouges the artist. I'd rather download the new Radiohead CD, burn it, and send my eighteen dollars straight to the band than give them all of a dime for it, via the RIAA.

Furthermore, studies have shown that P2P downloading is not the overarching cause of the decline in recent music sales. Some studies even show an increase in music purchases from P2P downloaders. I'll leave the debate about why the music industry is seeing a decline in sales, but here's my two cents: CDs cost too much.

Remember when CDs first came out and we were told they'd be cheaper than casettes? What happened to that? Don't tell me it costs sixteen dollars to produce that CD we pay eighteen for. No no, I'm not that stupid.


"I have to say, the virgin Mary is pretty fucking hot." - Myriad
Schuzme? (4.50 / 10) (#32)
by quartz on Sun Apr 6th, 2003 at 01:37:26 PM EST

So file sharing is stealing, you say. Well, surely I can share something I bought, because it's mine, no? No? Well then, you'd better stop calling the act of getting CDs in exchange for money "buying music", and start calling it what it really is: renting music. Once everybody calls it "renting", maybe I'll think about calling sharing stealing.

--
Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke, and fuck 'em even if they can.
Well done (4.88 / 9) (#31)
by godix on Sun Apr 6th, 2003 at 01:25:00 PM EST
(buggeroff@goaway.screwoff)

Some arguements you didn't address:

Convenience: Lets say I want the latest Eminem song. I can either get off my fat lazy ass, get into the car, fight saturday mall traffic to drive to the store, fight the mall crowds to get into the store, try and find the CD, find out they don't have it on the shelf so ask a sales clerk who gets one from back after 10 minutes, stand in line to pay for it, then drive back home. On the other hand, I can open up Kazaa lite with two mouseclicks, type in the name of the song, and click on it. 5 minutes later I have it on my computer. If I want it on a cd it just takes a few minutes to start burning and I'm back to browsing the web till it's done.

Variety: As you point out, major labels have slashed their jazz division. Other than P2P, where else am I going to get jazz if that's what I want? As another example, I heard of The Frantics years ago but couldn't find a copy of their work anywhere in the pre-p2p days. Without P2P all I'd have is one song from a Dr. Demento CD. Thanks to P2P I now have around 40 minutes of material from them.

Freedom: With P2P I can copy to a portable MP3 player, I can burn to CD, I can play on my computer, etc. With a store bought CD I might be able to do those things, or I may have bought a CD that has copyright control that'll prevent me from doing it. Granted, very few CDs have been sold in America that have that, but I don't want to even worry about it.

Cost: The companies in the RIAA are being punished for price fixing. Why haven't I seen CD prices drop if even the US courts agree they're too expensive? They have been proven guilty of ripping me off, unfortunately the only legal recourse I have is that I MIGHT get $20 from them. It's a lot harder to feel guilty for stealing from someone when they've been proven guilty of stealing from you.

Avoid rip-offs: Many times in the past I've bought a CD based on one or two songs just to find out those are the only songs worth a damn. In some cases the single popular song on the album is done in an entirely different style than every other song on the album. With P2P I can take a look, if the rest of the songs suck oh well, at least I'm not out $15-$20 to learn that this bad sucks expect for one song.

What really bothers me is that the RIAA could have provided me all these advantages from the start. Instead of changing their business strategy, at least slightly, they've instead gone on a crusade to take away every single advantage I've listed from me. I see no reason to defend a business that has gone out of it's way to make things inconvient, limited choice, limited capabilities, and has violated the law to rip me off. Does stealing with P2P hurt the RIAA? Maybe, but I hope like hell it does.


"You think we're arrogant, and we think you're French."
- George Herbert Walker Bush to a group of French intellectuals
Then sue me, if that's the only you can make money (5.00 / 4) (#30)
by the77x42 on Sun Apr 6th, 2003 at 01:19:12 PM EST
(d@ve.smells)

I used to buy CD's all the time. I had about 500 until my house was broken into and they stole my whole cabinet.

The insurance guy wanted to know if I wanted them back. Well... why? I didn't listen to them that much, so I just took the money. Everytime I wanted to listen to a song, I'd download it, and then burn it to play in my car.

I had a few dozen compilation CD's in my car. Then it was broken into and they stole my case. Did I go and reburn all the songs? No. Instead, I bought an iPod, and put 10GB worth of MP3's on that.

But was I downloading individual songs? No, I downloaded entire 2-hour DJ sets from Tiesto, Timo Maas, etc. Then I got hooked.

I spent $4000 on decks and a mixer, and I now buy dozens of $15/each records a month so I can record my own mixes. There's still the odd song I download, but it's only to preview it to know if I should buy the vinyl.

What does this all mean? Why bother buying CD's? If I want the new Oasis CD, I can burn it myself. I no longer have to spend $20 to hear a couple songs that I like for a week. What I do buy now are $15 individual songs that I can mix into my own music. CD's are outdated now by internet trade. It's not piracy, it's technology.

Bring Oasis in concert, and I'll pay lots of money to see them, but why would I spend $20 when I can get it for free? More live acts, that's the sales ticket now. Give up on CD's. Release interactive media (like vinyl), or go find another business because the RIAA obviously can't keep up.


I hate sigs, but wear your fucking seatbelt. - Me
You have skewed the arguments (4.33 / 3) (#25)
by Random Number Generator Troll on Sun Apr 6th, 2003 at 11:47:57 AM EST

I have a few thousand MP3's. The vast majority of which are ripped from CD's or records I have bought, or are live concert recordings, probably ~90%. CD's I dont like go back to the shop, unripped. Less than 1% is from friends, and the remaining ~9% is p2p'd.
Most of the stuff I got on p2p, I can guaruntee you that you will find it impossible to find it in shops, be unable to order, and not ever hear on the airwaves. All of it is either deleted, never-to-be-released, or just of too much personal/monetary value to be found in 2nd hand stores, unless you are very lucky. I find the odd gem trawling the shelves of course, but going out and looking to buy a particular title I want is a futile excersise.
Luckily, nowadays most record labels and artists I like have audio samples from new albums on their websites, so I know wether to avoid or not. Also, a few internet radio stations play my kind of thing, so i can get some pointers to new people I might like.
But all in all it is a struggle. The two piracy agruments are perfectly valid, and, if you don't skew the quotes (where the fuck did 'popular' in your quote come from? you're not the only fucker on the planet with a pretentious record collection, you know), not mutually exclusive at all. They dont truly apply to much of the p2p population, but to those of us that it does, there is simply no other option. The other 90% of course are just cheap, theiving bastards.

"piracy" is now like "hacker" (4.22 / 9) (#24)
by Seth Finkelstein on Sun Apr 6th, 2003 at 11:47:34 AM EST
(sethf[at-sign]sethf.com) http://sethf.com

In terms of the language, "piracy" is now a descriptivist vs. prescriptist debate. So far, I'm with the prescriptists here - the implications of the word are very negative, and so using it to refer to any unauthorized copying is giving an (in my view) negative connotation. Note the word used to have a commercial, for-profit, sense, which has been rubbed off it by the (somewhat successful) attempts to identify sharing with rip-offs.

Richard M. Stallman has a good page on language use and "words to avoid":

``Piracy''

Publishers often refer to prohibited copying as ``piracy.'' In this way, they imply that illegal copying is ethically equivalent to attacking ships on the high seas, kidnaping and murdering the people on them.

If you don't believe that illegal copying is just like kidnaping and murder, you might prefer not to use the word ``piracy'' to describe it. Neutral terms such as ``prohibited copying'' or ``unauthorized copying'' are available for use instead. Some of us might even prefer to use a positive term such as ``sharing information with your neighbor.''

-- Seth Finkelstein
My take on it, if anyone cares: (4.25 / 4) (#22)
by Kasreyn on Sun Apr 6th, 2003 at 11:37:02 AM EST
(Check my Bio for contact info) http://www.bloomington.in.us/~kasreyn

The file-traders' bottom line is pretty simple: "We hate the RIAA." Their two most common arguments are:

"We need P2P, because the RIAA and Clear Channel control the radio. Everything on FM is the same, and P2P is the only way we can discover independent music."
While others may only SAY this, I and at least a few other people I know are only able to find the sorts of esoteric music we enjoy through P2P networks, as it is nowhere to be found in record stores. Yes, there are a lot of weenies out there who only use P2P to download the new Eminem track. Yes, they outnumber the people who actually MIGHT download something by an artist who can't get on with a record label. But there still are a few of us out there, downloading the stuff not many have heard of.

"The RIAA isn't losing any sales. Most of the songs we download are just singles we heard on the radio. We only wanted each single, so we wouldn't have bought the complete albums, anyway."
This is where it gets iffy. Of COURSE the RIAA loses sales. This is why they jack the price of CD's up so high, to compensate. New pop albums have increased about 50% in price in the past 10-12 years that I have been a music buyer, and I cannot believe it's all inflation.

If you're trading copyrighted works, you're breaking the law and violating people's rights. If you feel fine about that, that's your prerogative. But stop whining about what file-sharing isn't. It is stealing. It is unlawful distribution. Claiming otherwise doesn't support your position. It just proves your ignorance. And it's difficult to respect someone's actions when he hasn't gone to the trouble of understanding them.
Agreed on all points there. Personally, I use filesharing networks for two reasons: to get music for free, and to screw the RIAA. Unfortunately, this also screws the artists who work with the RIAA. The way I see it, this is a neccessary evil to bring the RIAA down. They (the RIAA) are useless middlemen; artists could make more on micropayments on mp3 distribution over the internet than they do on sales in stores. Besides, the tactic of selling you 10 crappy tracks and 2 or 3 good tracks and calling it an "album" is getting pretty transparent. Distribution by mp3 allows you to avoid wasting money on the tracks you don't care for. "What about advertising and marketing?" you cry. It's true, those (plus the bean-counters' salaries) are the majority of the RIAA's cut of that 17 dollars for a new CD. But advertising and marketing are there to get you to buy something you would otherwise be no better than indifferent towards (when was the last time you saw a TV advertisement for a bland, ordinary, non-hyped, non-fancified, necessity of life? They're not advertised because people already need them and know where to get them). Since the sheeple will still buy SOMEthing (they don't actually care about music, but they need the noise in the background to feel good), who cares what it is? True music aficionadoes will learn about new music by word of mouth, as they always have done.

As to "solely for their own benefit": IMO, there is also a benefit to myself and others in the future if the RIAA can be replaced with a more benevolent system. Of course, I'm not about to pretend I'm some sort of altruist here. =P


-Kasreyn


"Come fill the cup and in the fire of spring
Your winter garment of repentence fling.
The bird of time has but a little way
To flutter - and the bird is on the wing."

-Omar Khayyam.
Question: (4.00 / 9) (#21)
by Kasreyn on Sun Apr 6th, 2003 at 11:18:18 AM EST
(Check my Bio for contact info) http://www.bloomington.in.us/~kasreyn

Did Merriam-Webster "update" the definition of piracy to include the capitalist-scumbag-friendly definition in the interests of "keeping up with the changing language" (ie., they were fools), or for some other reason (they're sellouts)?

Just curious.

Oh, and does anyone know if Oxford, IMO the REAL repository of the English language, has also changed its definition to suit the RIAA? I would check online but it's a subscription service and I am currently poor. =P


-Kasreyn

P.S. It's STILL a ludicrous use of the word "piracy", regardless of what some dipshit lexicographer decided.


"Come fill the cup and in the fire of spring
Your winter garment of repentence fling.
The bird of time has but a little way
To flutter - and the bird is on the wing."

-Omar Khayyam.
Not dealers. (4.60 / 10) (#17)
by ffrinch on Sun Apr 6th, 2003 at 10:02:27 AM EST

To use a common analogy: These four were dealers, not simply users.
Not really. They operated file-sharing services, which various people used to trade copyrighted matarial. They're like that guy you know who can hook you up with a dealer if you want something.

Google lets me find mp3s too; why is it not under attack? It only indexes other pages, right? So it's the mp3's hosts, not the search engine, who are to blame?

The users of the services are the "dealers", why doesn't the RIAA go after them?

Part of the problem here is that the RIAA is suing to shut down services that have legitimate uses.
Well, one man's dream is another man's nightmare.
I think you've hit the nail on the head, but don't forget it works both ways. The RIAA's nightmare is the independent's dream. Janis Ian raves about how good mp3s have been for her sales, and presumably many other artists feel the same way. If the RIAA succeeds in shutting down filesharing services, these people all lose out. Their actions are heavy-handed and stifle innovation: that is why they are "burned in effigy".

For what it's worth, I'd take out the paragraph about sales of singles, since it ignores a major factor -- price. Singles often contain one good song, a few bad remixes of that song, and a bad song (possibly with remixes). I'm not paying 1/4 the cost of an album for that -- I'd rather risk a CD half-full of tracks I don't want.

If they set up a service where people could buy the songs they want and not pay ridiculous prices for them then people would pay. Such services have always been overpriced or extremely limited, so small surprise no-one's interested.
"...life is so short, questionable and evanescent that it is not worth the trouble of major effort." — Schopenhauer
I think there are different kinds of P2P users. (4.88 / 9) (#15)
by werner on Sun Apr 6th, 2003 at 09:26:40 AM EST

I have used several P2P clients. I've downloaded a fair bit of music - mostly stupid things from my childhood - but not a huge amount. I'm not really interested in music and don't even own a stereo. I used to buy only 1 or 2 cds a year, whenever one of the few bands I really like brought out a new cd. Nowadays, I think cds are just too expensive. The last time I bought cds was 2 or 3 years ago, when I bought 5 or 6 quite cheaply at a cd fair. For me, a fair price is about 10 Euros. I would have to really, really want something to pay more than that.

My girlfriend, on the other hand, loves music. She buys as many cds as she can afford. If she has heard about an artist, she will download a few tracks on Kazaa or similar, and if she likes them, she will buy the cd, because she "likes to have the original".

I think there are a lot of people like my girlfriend. Real music lovers still buy cds. P2P truly does give them the opportunity to find new things. People like me, who don't really care, mostly download music. But then, we never bought many cds anyway. I know for a fact that my girlfriend bought more cds last year because she liked what she had downloaded than I didn't buy because I downloaded instead.

These 4 men fit into another group - those for whom the quantity of music is the end in itself. They just want a fat server, or an impressive directory tree. While these people are indeed the dealers of the P2P world, how much their "dealing" equates to lost profits for the RIAA is debatable. Certainly without P2P, they would personally never have collected that much music. Not much lost there. Then there are the users. As I said above, I believe that the people who always bought music are still buying music.

I am sure cd sales are declining, but I think it is unrealistic of the RIAA to blame this all on P2P. It would be good to see them trying to solve this in a somewhat more constructive fashion, rather than in their typical, luddite way. They seemed to wholeheartedly believe that they could destroy P2P. Now they are moving away from the distribution channel towards the users. This will work for a while, until everyone moves over to freenet-type networks, and then they will be back at square one.

It is time the RIAA recognized that the internet is a distribution medium which will not go away and cannot be defeated by a mere national association. It is time they realized that they have a competitor - albeit an illegal one, but one which will not go away. The internet is more elusive than the man selling fake cds at the flea market and will require different tactics. I think the RIAA members will have to compete with P2P.

It's hard to compete with free, but as the IT industry in particular shows, people are very willing to pay for guarantees, for service, for convenience. RIAA members will have to provide this convenience and find the right price.

Myself, I seriously doubt that I will every buy a cd again. As I said, I only ever bought a couple a year, but now they are copy-protected so I can't play them on my pc (I don't have a stereo, remember). They've already lost my 20 Euros a year; when my girlfriend finds she can no longer make compilation cds for the car from her purchased cds because they are copy-protected, she will have one less reason to buy her music, and it will leave both of us needing P2P if we want to listen to music in the way we are accustomed.

Some thoughts. (4.00 / 6) (#11)
by kitten on Sun Apr 6th, 2003 at 08:03:20 AM EST
(kitten@mirrorshades.org) http://mirrorshades.org/wc

A huge portion of the mp3s I have are songs from the 80s. To get these songs "legally" I'd have to go to the store and special order the CD, since most stores don't stock music from two decades ago, wait two weeks while it may or may not get shipped from the warehouse, and end up with a 20 dollar compilation CD full of songs I didn't want in the first place, plus the one song I did want.

Thanks, but no thanks. When I'm forced to special order CDs from a warehouse, that signifies to me that the owner of the song is no longer really interested in making money from it, and therefore, I don't see what the problem is with my downloading it.

I listen to 88.5 FM which is a local college station here in Atlanta that plays primarily local or independant bands. I hear quite a number of good songs on this station, and hunting them down would be extremely difficult or completely impossible. I have neither the time nor the patience to find CDs from little-known independant groups, but I'll download a song or two, no problem. At least they're getting exposure they wouldn't otherwise.

Before mp3 filesharing, consider what we had to do. If you heard a good song on the radio, you might go out and buy the band's CD. Then you'd find that most of their music sucks, save for that one song. You only need to experience that a few times before you decide to stop throwing your money away on bands that suck. What happens to the precious profit for the record company then?

But along comes filesharing, and suddenly you can find more music by this band and decide before you pay whether they're a one-hit wonder or not. I know I'm not the only one who buys CDs even when I have a couple mp3s from the band. I was introduced to Depeche Mode this way, a couple years ago - I now own four or five of their albums. Had it not been for filesharing, I wouldn't have any of their albums.

Well, that's a very polite argument, Robin Hood. Record companies may hoard album profits for themselves; but right or wrong, what they're doing is legal, and what you're doing isn't.

Perhaps, then, there's something wrong with the law. Simply saying "it's illegal" is not a good argument. There's lots of things that are or have been illegal, but that doesn't mean those things are wrong. Sodomy (this includes oral sex, by the way) is illegal in most states too. Does this mean it's "wrong"? Slavery was legal at one time - does that make it "right"?

The legality of a thing does not necessarily imply the ethical virtue of that thing, nor vice versa.

I was in sixth or seventh grade when Metallica started getting popular. Know how they got well-known? It wasn't from the radio. It was from people making tapes for each other and giving them to their buddies between classes or whatever. Without this horrible and illegal sharing, Metallica would be nowhere near as popular as they became; I find it ironic that they were one of the spearheads in the anti-Napster movement.

Anyone who says people won't buy full-length albums just to hear one or two songs is flat-out wrong. I spent three years working in a record store, and I watched thousands of customers do exactly that.

Was this before Napster and file-sharing became popular? If not, were these people mostly computer-illiterate types who didn't really know what mp3s were? Your example by itself proves nothing. Anyone who knows how to get Kazaa or whatever will download the one or two songs from the album, not buy the entire thing just for those songs. The people today who don't probably just don't care or don't know enough about computers and the Internet.

So the great benefit of P2P is that you can discover new, independent music...but all you ever use it for is to download popular singles? Can you say, "mutually exclusive"?

Only if it's the same person spouting both arguments. I can easily see where one person would use filesharing to get his independant bands and obscure singles, and another person who only wants the good single off an otherwise crappy album, so he uses it for that.

Finally, the RIAA should demonstrate conclusively that filesharing is hurting sales. While 2002 did see a 7-point-something drop in sales of singles, for example, there are many reasons for this other than music piracy. For one thing, according to this article, there was less music released in that year - so we can certainly expect to see less sales. There's other things competing for the consumer's entertainment dollar as well; with the popularity of DVDs and new game consoles out, people may spend their money on these things instead of CDs. Finally, the ever-increasing price of CDs lowers the demand for them, for obvious reasons.


.kitten.
"What a piece of work is man..
In action, how like an angel,
In apprehension, how like a god."

People only buy music they know they'll like (5.00 / 8) (#9)
by lakeland on Sun Apr 6th, 2003 at 06:51:26 AM EST
(kuro5hin@lakeland.hopto.org) http://lakeland.hopto.org

You make a comment in your article that P2P users say "The radio is controlled junk and they want variety" when you think this is just a lame excuse.

Put simply, your argument is bullshit. The drivel that comes out of modern commercial radio stations sounds like it was computer generated. I am sure there is good music out there, but I sure aren't hearing it and so I aren't buying it. If I used p2p then perhaps I would hear it, in which case I would no doubt buy it.

As a personal example... About a month ago, my wife and I wandered past a record store. I noticed it had a 'half price sale' on and being a sucker for sales, I wandered in.

Looking through the rows and rows of music, I was totally lost.. I have heard a number of pop bands on the radio and hated them all. But what did this shop sell that I would like? I have a few 60s and 70s artists I quite like, but I already own a CD of them and don't really feel the need for another. Similarly, there are definate holes in my classical music collection but at $15 a pop I have no strong desire to fill them.

Now, I could have sat in the shop and tried one CD after another. But my time isn't that worthless. With tens of thousands of CDs to choose from, it would have taken days. I could perhaps have got one of the overworked sales assistants to help, but I didn't want to look like an idiot, and I doubt it would have helped. Can you imagine getting anywhere with a conversation starting with "I haven't heard any song produced since 1990 that I've liked".

I left empty handed without even bothering to try listening to a CD. This was the closest I have got to buying a CD since mid last year, when I bought a CD of NZ music to send to a friend in the states. Three years before that, I bought a Liszt CD because I liked a piece I heard on the radio. Perhaps I would have used p2p 5 years ago if it had existed.

The one time I did try P2P, it was moderatly successful. I cliked on things, essentially at random, and occasionally said things like 'oh, velvet underground, I've always wondered what they sound like'. I got most of my search terms by using gnutella's 'passive' mode. I downloaded hundreds of songs. Most of them I hated, and a large number I deleted before I'd even finished downloading them.

But there were a few I liked, and if I did it regularly I'm sure I'd find some that I really liked -- though tying it in with something like Amazon's "If you liked a, b but not c, you might like d and e" would have helped enourmously. I'll now make painfully explicit the difference between this and listening in the shop. 1) It was free with no pressure to buy. 2) It was in the comfort of my own home. 3) It was time I was happy to kill, and I could stop at any time and go do work should I get bored. 4) Just as I could stop instantly, I was able to fire up the app instantly. There was no drive into town, search for a park, walk to the store.

Unfortunatly I didn't find anybody I liked enough to go buy. But in this two hour period I heard more different music than I normally hear in a year. Without exposure to music like this there is no chance I will purchase.

I doubt I'll buy a CD in the next five years, though I'll do nothing to avoid it. Put simply, I am not being exposed to any music I like, so I'm not buying it. I don't have conveniant and legal methods of finding out and (for the same reason I use Debian rather than Warez'ed windows), I do try to obey the law. enough to bother buying.

Am I unique? I don't think so. Most of my friends are in similar situations, though they seem to make more effort to find things. The best conclusion I can come to is that the RIAA has alienated almost everybody over the age of 25, myself included. Rather than fix this, they've simply shifted their marketing to people under 25.

Everybody is doing it, why can't we? (3.75 / 8) (#3)
by Blarney on Sun Apr 6th, 2003 at 05:16:01 AM EST

Here's the problem. If everybody who was copying music illegally was prosecuted, there wouldn't be enough courtrooms to sue them all nor enough jail cells to hold them all.

This is a serious problem for two reasons. First of all, copyright is a government-granted monopoly and we are supposed to have a government which has the consent of the governed. When everyone with a computer breaks the law, the law is really supposed to change - this being why we have a republic and not a monarchy (well, assuming that we aren't ruled by a monarchy already, which is arguable).

Secondly, there's far too many people to bust so that the RIAA has to just pick some kids at random and sue them for all the damages that all the file traders in the world might have cost. This isn't illegal - they can't be required to sue everybody - but it does violate the fundamental common law principle of "a government of laws, not men". When all violate the law, it's all up to a few powerful men to decide who gets punished - and that's not what our country is supposed to be about.

GWB Hates to drink, doesn't like to smoke.
RIAA vs. Captain Teach | 518 comments (482 topical, 36 editorial, 0 hidden)
View: Display: Sort:

kuro5hin.org

[XML]
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. The Rest © 2000 - 2002 Kuro5hin.org Inc.
See our legalese page for copyright policies. Please also read our Privacy Policy.
Kuro5hin.org is powered by Free Software, including Apache, Perl, and Linux, The Scoop Engine that runs this site is freely available, under the terms of the GPL.
Need some help? Email help@kuro5hin.org.
Registered at the post office as: 12 Galaxies Guiltied to a Zegnatronic Rocket Society

Powered by Scoop create account | help/FAQ | mission | links | search | IRC | YOU choose the stories! K5 Store by Jinx Hackwear Syndication Supported by NewsIsFree