Talk:İzmir

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Please do not edit archived pages. If you want to react to a statement made in an archived discussion, please make a new header on THIS page. Baristarim 04:58, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

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Important Note: Please do not change the names of İzmir listed in the intro without first raising the issue in this talk page. For further background information on the debates that led to those names being listed, please see the archives on the right. Thank you.

Contents

[edit] Comments

It doesn't write the the Turkish names of Athens, Yerevan or Thessaloniki in Wikipedia, but why in İzmir page it writes? This makes hard to believe Wikipedia's objectivity. I hope you'll add the Japenese name of the city too! /Qghvz —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.227.82.192 (talk) 01:48, May 1, 2007

The subject has been discussed ad nauseum. Unless you want a headache, don't complain. ALTON .ıl 05:11, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Names

For that looong list of alternate names in different languages, I suggest a solution like at Thessaloniki that I also took the liberty of applying to Istanbul. Baristarim 11:03, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable to me. I'd also suggest that we follow the example of Istanbul by using the English name Izmir in most cases, rather than the Turkish name İzmir (which should still be mentioned, of course). --Delirium 02:27, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I have a feeling that proposal would be contested, because Izmir is not as well-known as Istanbul, in my experience. ALTON .ıl 05:12, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why Turkish name?

Why is this article under the Turkish name (İzmir) as opposed to the English name, Izmir? Quote from WP:NCGN:

When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it.

As far as I can tell the widely accepted English name does not contain a dotted capital I (İ) considering it doesn't exist in English. Explanation anyone? You don't find Munich under München. - EstoyAquí(t • c • e) 18:08, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Check out similar examples like São Paulo, León, Cádiz, Córdoba, Málaga, etc. Res Gestæ Divi Augusti (talk) 20:38, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Of those, at least half should be changed. The English is Cordova. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:52, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

As a Turkish citizen and an izmir residence I agree that the name should be either "Izmir" or "izmir" because of the undefined capital "i" in English the ussers who will conduct sources like google also have some difficulties in finding the article through the search engines. So an editor should correct it to one of the above mentioned choices.--Odevlen (talk) 20:02, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the title should be Izmir, rather than İzmir which should of course still be mentioned in the lead sentence. Although I would not go so far as to say the İ "does not exist in English", it certainly is not very widespread. In this case, I could only find citations for İzmir coming from publications originating from Turkey. The wider English speaking world uses Izmir almost exclusively. For instance:

[edit] Who had the higher populations of Izmir before 1922?

Greeks or Turks? If it is Greeks, don't you think it should be at least mentioned? If it is Turks, how many more were there? If there were more Armenians and Greeks before 1922 living in the city, surely it was therefore mainly a christian city up until 1922? Reaper7 18:52, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

See the article on Greek-Turkish war for more info on that. Basically the Turks said the turks had a majority; Greeks said the greeks did. Historians think the Greeks had a concentrated majority in the city of smyrna itself. Also the complexity of the issue may make it not worth going into in the article itself, especially since there are other pages with that info already (previously mentioned one)Unknown (talk) 04:08, 27 May 2009 (UTC)


It was very nice of Ottomans, way ahead of their time, to let all live in peace. Wish the World at large had adopted these customs.--Murat (talk) 00:34, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Defining population

It was mentioned, defined by a couple of paragraphs showing how the trade boom along with the large presence of Greeks and Armenians changed the character of the city itself. The whole idea is not to define a population in numerical terms, but to show how Izmir evolved. To quantify the population along those lines would be unnecessary and would just spark controversy for the sake of it. Monsieurdl 16:17, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] There have always been Greeks there

So what has that got to do with a sudden trade boom? I am sorry, can someone at least an attempt at my first question? Reaper7 14:17, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] You are missing the point

1. Your question is Greeks or Turks, and the answer is BOTH. 2. Every influence in Izmir has been mentioned in the article. 3. After the 15th century, Izmir was a very multicultural city, and MANY different religions were represented. This is also mentioned in the article.

It is very simple to me- a general, accurate history of Izmir is a lot more important than validating an agenda, plain and simple. Monsieurdl 23:12, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Use a translator if your English is so bad

1. The question is not Greeks or Turks, reread. It is who had the higher population before 1922. 2. It is not a subject to be hidden in cultural garbage section of the article, we are talking facts and figures. If a city in the UK was almost half or over half spanish before 1922 and now there are none, trust me, there would be a section on it, especially if the city is as old and important as Izmir. 3. Again, what are you talking about? Izmir was multi cultural before the 15 century. Please reread and try not to start and answer a new topic to reply. Thankyou. Reaper7 11:12, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Redirecting Smyrna

I propose changing the disambiguation solution currently used for Smyrna. Currently, Smyrna is an article of its own but deals only with the ancient city, with disambiguation notices only in the article heads. But people keep using links to Smyrna in articles mentioning the modern city (under a Greek perspective), especially in pre-1923 contexts. These links should all end up here at Izmir, because that's the article that has the information relevant to those contexts. If you look at Special:Whatlinkshere/Smyrna, most of the incoming links are more relevant to modern Izmir than to the ancient city.

Therefore: Move Smyrna to Smyrna (ancient city), redirect Smyrna to İzmir, include dab notices:

Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:08, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I ended up here by accident but can't help but also ask about the redirect of Izmir to the turkish name with the "İ". Did you mess something up while working out the Smyrna disambiguation? You quoted the English Izmir at first and then the Turkish İzmir. Shouldn't the articles be in the english language and use/quote the local writing inside the article? And to anyone answering please read carefully what I ask. I am not talking about the modern name of the island city. I am asking why the name of the article is in the Turkish language when this is the English page.Arheos (talk) 00:08, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Check out similar examples like São Paulo, León, Cádiz, Córdoba, Málaga, etc. İzmir is not an island by the way. Res Gestæ Divi Augusti (talk) 00:34, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Oops, sorry about the island reference. Don't know how that slipped away, I was on another page about Imbros and Tenedos and I was on auto-mode. Still, even for those, can you brief me on the explanation behind it? I'm sure it's hidden around the talk pages, most probably the archives, but if you can be bothered...Cheers. Arheos (talk) 11:33, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

It sounds great. Now, of course, that should be done with every city that might need it along the whole of Asia Minor. I'll be back to work here tomorrow and will see if any need the same treatment. Monsieurdl 15:22, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok lets do it now! User:Eae1983 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.245.123.154 (talk) 09:15, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

These anonymous and even logged-in (!) Turkish jokers are sufficiently answered at Talk:Smyrna. --Wetman (talk) 13:25, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry Wetman as I am no Wiki-friendly, I posted my comment without logging in then logged in and signed it. I know that is stupid, now could you refrain of calling me a "turkish joker"? Thanks! --Eae1983 (talk) 13:40, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Is this a fake?

http://www.agiasofia.com/horton/table.jpg

If it is not, can it be added? Reaper7 (talk) 05:27, 12 February 2008 (UTC)


These figures are ridiculus... Nearly 3 milyon Greeks living in todays Turkey borders... in 1915... you must be kidding... with a projection from 1915 to 2008, there should be at least 10 to 15 million Greek people out there, somewhere... I believe it is more than todays population of Greece... Therefore you have to consider the fact that (if all Greeks forced out of the Turkey by 1915) todays Greece should be empty in 1915 in order welcome this nearly 3 million Greeks... some math wont harm... Turkey had near 10 million population in 1930's... now is around 80 million.. do the math yourself...--Odevlen (talk) 01:54, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

 ? There are 15 million Greeks all over the world.Reaper7 (talk) 21:40, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Beauty

I know this is kinda irrelevant, but that article is plain BEAUTIFUL!! Congratulations on all editors that worked hard to make it happen! --Eae1983 (talk) 13:37, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

It is not irrelevant:you can nominate this article for "Good articles" or "Featured Articles" AverageTurkishJoe (talk) 15:56, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Good but how? I am a really ignorant person when it comes to computer stuff :)) --Eae1983 (talk) 06:16, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Same here. Kudos to all who contributed. Such a long and coloful history though! Even I am impressed!--Murat (talk) 00:38, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Indeed its accurate but beautiful? Maybe if the writing was ten times higher quality Unknown (talk) 04:11, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] cuisine

It is written:"Historically, as a result of the influx of Greek refugees from İzmir (as well as from other parts of Asia Minor and Istanbul) to mainland Greece after 1922, the cuisine of İzmir has had an enormous impact on Greek cuisine, exporting many sophisticated spices and foods."

so the greek cuisine in smyrna is different than greek cuisine??

i think it shoulbe written like this: " ....the cuisine of Greeks of İzmir has had an enormous impact on the rest of Greek cuisine, exporting many sophisticated spices and foods." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.167.52.4 (talk) 07:35, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

That suggests that the Greeks of Smyrna cooked differently from their Turkish, Armenian, Jewish...etc. neighbors. Excluding dietary laws, is there any reason to believe this true? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:54, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was N Not done. No consensus. — Aitias // discussion 21:45, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

İzmir → Izmir (see also #Why Turkish name? above). 199.125.109.99 (talk) 18:18, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

The above list of evidence is pretty convincing. You have to look at article names case by case, as WP:NCGN tells us. In English we use some diacritics, but not others. So we use São Paulo, but Montreal (not Montréal). The test is whether there is a widely used name in English, and if there is, use that. If there is a source for the assertion that İzmir is widely used in English, let's have it. If there is not, let's rename the article.Mhockey (talk) 16:10, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

  • I support moving the page to Izmir; Erudy has provided a number of reliable sources showing the use of the common English variant in a variety of sources, including US and UK media, US and UK governmental bodies, the UN, etc. Parsecboy (talk) 12:29, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Support, I don't know when I've ever seen this with a diacritic in my experience with the sources. Distinguishable from São Paulo. JJB 22:13, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Support as above. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:52, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose for basically the same reasons as to why the article Tenedos should be under the title Bozcaada. To my impression, those who are in a position to contribute the most up-to-date information to this article usually use the spelling İzmir. Changing the title to Izmir will alienate further contributors. NB: We should also buy the line of these blokes. It could interest them for a change. :) Cretanforever (talk) 17:06, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
    • Alienating those Turks so nationalist that they will decline to edit over the absence of this tittle can only improve the article. If we could find some way to alienate Greek nationalists at the same time, the situation would be close to ideal. Now, is there any objection based on evidence, as opposed to WP:MYPEOPLELIKEIT? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:10, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Support move, in line with the evidence deposited earlier. I think this is a clear case of English convention preferring an unadorned spelling, and we should follow it.Erudy (talk) 00:16, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Support move to Izmir, as the name commonly used in English, and thus the one the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize. - Ev (talk) 16:00, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose. "Izmir" seems to be a failure to dot the "İ" rather than an actual English exonym and Wikipedia usually includes diacritics on placenames (e.g., Düsseldorf, Kraków, Cádiz) even if many English texts don't. Based on the arguments here, all Turkish cities should be moved to diacriticless titles which would be a mess. İzmir does have an English name, though: Smyrna. Anyone in favor of that move? — AjaxSmack 01:00, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose. "Izmir" is the common English spelling for the city because most English-language typesetting equipment does not have İ or ı. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 10:35, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose, for the reasons AjaxSmack and Anthony Appleyard give. Many sources with diacriticless spellings simply do not use diacritics or modified latin letters at all, or only use the ones the most familiar to Anglophones or most easy to produce on a keyboard (such as tildes and accents aigu and grave). If a source consistenty uses i for ı and I for İ, that doesn't tell us anything about the individual place-names, just about whether the source bothers with Turkish letters.--Atemperman (talk) 16:53, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
It doesn't really matter why Izmir is the most conmmon spelling in English texts. It is, and that should be enough. It may well be that the reason is that most English readers are not familiar with the difference between dotted and dotless i, but that does not alter the fact that they do not use İzmir. Recall the example of the BBC cited by Erudy above:BBC (notice that BBC uses İzmir on their Turkish service, strongly suggesting that using the unadorned I is a professional editorial decision on behalf of English readers, rather than a technical limitation.) This does not mean that we should avoid İ in less familiar Turkish names (e.g. İzmit), where there is no common English usage. Mhockey (talk) 21:56, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
But the BBC doesn't use the "İ" on İzmit either[1] so why should it be any different? Who decides which names are more familiar and which are less? Is it to be ad hoc case by case? While many news services have style guidelines calling for no diacritics, Wikipedia does not. — AjaxSmack 02:14, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
Nor on Istanbul either; should we dot the I there, although no English-speaker does? What basis is there for any line other than what does English do? We have no guidance, and no consensus for it, saying always use diacritics. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:39, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
English does many things. While news organizations typically don't use diacritics, encyclopedias often do. For example, the folks over at Britannica use İzmir with the "İ" (but not so with Istanbul). — AjaxSmack 06:48, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
Strange; this version of the Britannica still uses Izmir, with no dot. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:54, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose No need to downgrade accuracy. Húsönd 22:32, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
    • But the present title is inaccurate; it misrepresents English usage. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:50, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
      • English usage is very relative concept. Many English speakers write "İzmir" because they are familiar with the local spelling, and others don't because they are neither familiar, nor bother, nor both. "İzmir" could indeed misrepresent the majority of the English usage, but would definitely not misrepresent the usage per se. Húsönd 16:02, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
        • Speculation; there is no "many". The point of Erudy's accumulation of sources is that English-speakers who use İzmir are extremely rare. There are (of course) pedants; perhaps more frequently, there are Turks who do not know, and have not considered, what English idiom is. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:07, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] Bias in Greek-Turkish War and subsequent fire

Seems a bit biased to me. The bit about how the turks felt (first bullet fire etc.) needs to be more explicitly stated as their POV. Also focus seems to be on Greek atrocities with a bit of "the turks did it too" at the end. I think would be a good idea to look at the wiki page dedicated to the Greek-Turkish war, its pretty unbiased. --Unknown (talk) 04:18, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] The article itself is not the place for continuing an argument related to the move request

I removed the argumentative material Mhockey added to the Names and Etymology section, which consisted a statement that Izmir is the primary way of writing the city's name in English and a list of sources that have the city so spelled. This is original research, which, while accepted as necessary and part of the guidelines for deciding how to title a page, is not appropriate for the article itself. If the material I removed were to stay in, then editors who disagree with Mhockey will be just as justified in offering their countervailing points in the article, distracting readers with what should be a "backstage" controversy. --Atemperman (talk) 01:38, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, it was not meant to be argumentative, I thought it was stating verified facts which were established in the debate. Maybe I misunderstood the arguments put forward in the debate, but I thought we had established that common usage in English is Izmir, but some editors thought that we should use İzmir in English (assuming availability of the appropriate typesetting equipment). I would have no problem if "countervailing points" were included in the article (in fact I included one myself), as long as they can be verified. Plenty of evidence was provided by User:Erudy (not by me) that authoritative texts in English use Izmir. In what sense is that original research? It is citing references, which is what we should always do in WP articles. Mhockey (talk) 20:32, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

If there are no other comments, I am proposing to restore the citations deleted by Atemperman, which are factual and relevant to an undestanding of usage of the name in English. Mhockey (talk) 07:07, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

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