Photo Buyers Guide to Prices Online

Photo Buyers Guide to Prices Online
by Robert Monaghan

Ebay Completed Auctions Search (Keyword, quick check)

Related Links:
Camera Value Determination
EBAY Medium Format Camera Price History
(courtesy of BigCamera.COM)
IMPACT Used Photo Gear Dealers & Ads Links
MyCameraShop (UK)
(price valuations by email..)
Online Collector's Camera Pricing Guide
Photo Gear Values (Database)
Photography Blue Book
Photography Blue Book (frozenmoments)
Price Search (Okongo) [1/2001]
Reviews (Okongo) [1/2001]

Q: How can I find out the going new US imported/warranty and grey market import prices of popular photo items?
Most of us just use the extensive online listings of B&H; store as a guide - see B&H; online catalog.

You will also find B&H; printed catalogs in issues of Popular Photography and other magazines if you prefer a paper format. Don't used B&H; prices for used gear (they're often high).

Q: How come I see some prices for new USA imported/warranty items and grey market items in other dealer ads for less than B&H;'s prices?
You may see some prices somewhat cheaper - up to 10% or so - but be careful. Many dealers try to get you to call with low published prices, then try a bait and switch or upgrade deal on you. Watch out! Other dealers may strip out items like lens caps and straps from the manufacturer's camera kits, selling them to you as "extras". Some will refuse to sell to you unless you buy a UV filter or other high markup item (in one case $130 for 4 generic no-name filters worth $30 or so!). Quite a few dealers charge you $50 or more to mail out any item from their store, even if postage is only $5 or less. You have to look at your bill to see these charges in the fine print.
In general, most mail order stores have a markup circa 5-10% on major items, relying on fast turn-around to make money. B&H; is one of the highest volume discount mail-order stores in the USA, so it is unlikely any other dealers are getting items for much less. A few stores may be less for identical items than B&H;, or offer free shipping or other services, but check to be sure they're reputable before buying (how? see below).
So if you see new USA imported or grey market prices for much less than B&H;, inquire carefully and check on the dealership online too! In the meantime, you can use B&H;'s massive online and published advertising as a price guide starting point.
Note I am only using B&H; as a standard here since they publish the most extensive new gear catalog ads in the popular press (Popular Photography, Shutterbug...). You will find the same handful of reputable stores (B&H;, Adorama, CWO, KEH, Midwest, Pacrim...) listed by reviewers. You can read about the horror stories from burned buyers and how to avoid getting ripped off.

Q: Where can I find an online price guide service?
A new service lists 23,000+ cameras with price guides for interested camera collectors, dealers, and auctioneers. Unfortunately, this service charges a fee ($29.95 US+), but you can pay online via credit cards or via a telephone (900#). See Camprice.com for more details.
Camprice.com claims to have many more cameras than any price guide, and more current price listings than the published sources. However, I believe that you will also want and need the various collector (e.g., McKeown) and user (e.g., McBroom) price guides which have photos and related information needed to properly identify a camera or item too.
Trader's Edge breaks out prices by region (but pricey circa $100 US)

Q: How can I find published price guides to new and used photo prices?
Check your local library, as there are many published price guides for photo equipment:
McBroom's Camera Bluebook (current used camera/lens pricing guide for 35mm, med fmt etc.) [site down 04/00; future site note]
McBroom's Book at Barnes and Nobles
McKeown's Price Guide to Antique and Classic Cameras (10th ed.) (collectible older cameras)
Amazon.com Booksellers Online - Search Camera Price for list of current Camera Price Guides etc.)

Q: Why are price guides so handy?
Price guides formats vary, but most contain quite a bit of information aimed at informing you about the various cameras and lenses and related items. Where a lens has many variants (e.g., 70-210mm zooms), a price guide may help highlight which ones are worth more, and why. A price guide will also list most of the available accessories and lenses, including all variants (e.g., McBroom's). Finally, many price guides supplement their prices with interesting historical notes and photos (especially McKeown's collector price guides).
A typical price guide entry will list the item, e.g., a lens by focal length and aperture, including such information as filter size to distinguish between similar items. The prices consist of a series of price ranges against a standard condition rating scale (well defined) such as 8-, 8, 8+, 9-, 9, and so on. Sometimes the price entries have dates of manufacture and original selling price (in prices not adjusted for inflation).
For each range, a set of typical dealer prices for the used item is given. The high end of one range may overlap the low end of the next, as some dealers may be higher or lower priced than others, so prices vary and overlap.

Q: What's the problem with using published price guides?
Currently*, McBroom's and McKeown's price guides are about to be published in a new version (after delays). So the available most popular guides are rather old, and prices change rapidly. Still, they can be a quick check to see if an ad is a great buy or just an average one. [*May 1999]
Some guides such as the Orion Price Guide are aimed at pawn shop dealers buying photogear at distress prices. Their published prices don't correspond, in my experience, with prices offered by camera dealers for used items.
Some other price books may be published in Europe, reflecting local prices there more than in the USA (and our price books vice versa).

Q: How can I get a quick ball-park online auction price for an item?
The most extensive online photogear auction is EBAY. You can use EBAY's own search engine to locate used gear selling prices at completed auctions online. Go to EBAY Home page, select Search from top menu bar, and page down to "completed search". Enter the keywords such as the name of the camera or item and click search button.

Q: Why do you have to be careful using EBAY completed auction prices?
Be aware that you need to check the resulting list of recent auction ending prices carefully. Many low bids may not have met reserve minimums, and so give a falsely low price estimate. Other high bids may include other items with the basic package too. Some cameras may have different lens options, one or more of which may be worth more than other variants. Be sure the price you see represents an identical camera, lens, or photo item in similar condition.
Unfortunately, EBAY prices are sometimes bid too high by anxious bidders, or too low due to a lack of interest (minimum single bid). But at least, you will have a ball-park price figure in a few seconds using this trick. The more bidders and bids, and the more examples similar to your camera that you see being sold, the better the resulting price estimate is likely to be.

Q: How can I check on used gear prices at dealers?
The short answer is go to some of the larger used gear dealers and look up prices at a few sites. See Jeff Albro's IMPACT! Used Photo Gear Dealer Links.
Some of the more extensive dealers often used include:
B&H; Photo Video Catalog
KEH Camera Brokers
Wall Street Camera

Q: Where can I find a list of used gear dealers for my camera system?
Make your own list by setting up bookmarks while searching through the extensive listing of Jeff Albro's IMPACT! Used Photo Gear Dealer Links. Take notes and explore each dealer site for items of interest to you.
You may want to create separate lists for cameras and lenses versus accessories or film.
Frankly, I generally return and cycle through the dealer listing (on a fast college linkup) on a monthly basis to catch new items and specials.

Q: How can I sign up for newsletters, email updates and preferred customer mailings?
Many dealers have email or mailed newsletter listings of monthly specials. I get these from S&G; Photo, Goodwin Photo, Midwest Photo Exchange, and Pacrim Camera. Other folks have an email update service, such as Goodwin Photo and Cameta Camera. These mailings really work, which is why I buy more stuff, which is why I am kept on these listings ;-)!
Some of the email mailings go out before prices and new items are posted on the store's web pages (E.g., Cameta Camera). So you may get first shot at rare items or special savings items too.

Q: Why has the WWW dealer pages supplanted printed ads (e.g., in Shutterbug Ads)?
Most printed ads take 2 months or more to get into print and through the mails to you. It costs a huge amount of money to layout and pay for placing an ad in a national magazine. Only a small proportion of readers may be interested in your particular product lines.
By contrast, new items can be posted very cheaply on a web site. Listings can be updated daily, or even continuously with some databases and online server software. Some dealers are turning to the WWW as a fast and cheap way to reach buyers for fast turn-around sales.

Q: What about Shutterbug Ads?
Shutterbug Ads is the third largest photo publication in the USA, originally mainly a huge listing of dealer and individual classified ads for photogear. Today, the articles are the best reason to subscribe, IMHO, especially if you like one or more of the regularly featured authors (e.g., Roger Hicks).
Shutterbug Ads has a more professional dealer and studio oriented ad mixture, so you will find many items like view camera lenses listed that won't be listed in Popular Photography ads.
But by the time you get the printed ads via third class mail, many of the items will already be sold. If you don't pay extra for faster shipping (e.g., airmail), you may find that many of the best deals have been snapped up by other collectors or buyers who got their copy airmailed before you got your copy via surface mail. Aargh!

Q: What about other ad sheets?
Midwest Photo Shopper is one of the better known photo newsletters offering photo classified ads.

Q: How can I find listings of bad dealers to avoid online?
From Our Buyer Beware section:
Neighbor to Neighbor Store Ratings
Mail Order Survey
New York City Dept of Consumer Affairs (Fraud)

Q: How can I find listings of good dealers online?
The above sites also list good dealers, as do various authors online, e.g.: Danny Gonzalez's Buyer's Primer

Q: How can I check out a private individual seller?
Do a search using DEJANEWS search engine in the rec.photo newsgroups. This search will turn up complaints by buyers, fraud alerts, and some indication of their volume of online sales. (See also EBAY lookup tricks below). Other search engines such as google.com can also help identify a problematic seller.

Q: How should individual seller prices compare to dealer prices for similar used items?
Dealers offer services including:
credit (Mastercard/Visa)
credit card protections (you can contest charges..)
professional rating of equipment condition
fast shipment of used items
contact phone number for questions
warranties of merchantability and fitness under Uniform Commercial Code
return warranty period - typically 14 days to 60 days on used gear

Private sellers may:
over-rate the condition of their equipment out of ignorance or greed
be slow to mail items (wait for check to show on monthly statement)
don't offer credit, usually demanding cash in advance payment (risky!)
offer no return guarantees that can be enforced

Since the dealer used gear sales offer you credit and various warranties and protections, you would expect to pay more for those extra services. Conversely, you would expect to pay less to a private seller where you are taking more risks, with fewer protections and warranties.
How much less? Typically, I expect to see at least a 20% to 25% discount on purchases in the $100 and up range. If an item is rare or in demand, the seller may be able to get full dealer prices. For smaller items or those with less demand (e.g., obsolete lens mounts), prices may be less.

Q: How can you create your own price guide?
Thanks to the Internet, you can quickly download and print any number of typical dealer price lists for sundry brands of equipment (e.g., Nikon, Canon, Bronica). See IMPACT used photo gear prices for major used dealer site links.
I have created a sample "inverted" Bronica S/S2/EC price list online. By collecting similar lenses, camera packages, and accessories together, you can quickly find the best buys among the listed dealers. Other guides are available for Kowa6/66, Kiev88/60, Koni-Omega, and other cameras too.

Q: Why is this inverted price list so useful?
The inverted price guide provides a quick way to see who has the lowest and highest prices. An inverted price guide inverts the usual list of dealers and items they sell into a guide listed by items (not dealers) and which dealers have it and for what prices.
Remember how I noted at the top of this page to use B&H; for only new gear prices? Now you can see that B&H; is often the highest priced source of used Bronica equipment (albeit with a great warranty etc.).
You can also see how easy it is to locate best buys. One lens sells for $1,000 less from one dealer than from another! You can also locate one of a kind items that are hard to find, versus more common lenses that are readily available from many dealers. From the bottom of the table, you can see many dealers carry only a few incidental items, while some dealers have major listings of items for-sale.
Finally, since the table has links to the specific pages or sites, you can just click to go there and check on the current listings.

Q: How can I create such an "inverted" price guide for my want-list items?
Simple! Start by visiting and bookmarking dealers on our IMPACT used dealer listing. These bookmarks should be dealers who handle your brand of equipment or items of interest.
Now make a list of those items you really need or want, and those you just want to price for personal interest. Unless you want to publish your own price guide, you probably don't want to get prices on every Nikon lens, for example. This list should be on a word processor open along with your browser on your computer.
Using your bookmarks, visit each dealer's site. Copy and paste the dealer's address (URL: http://www.....) into your open document. For each item on your wanted list to price out, copy and paste any entries in the dealer's site list. Continue this for each dealer you bookmarked. Periodically save your document, and print out a copy for your reference.
You can "invert" the list by adding a dealer code after each price and item entry (and the dealer's URL link too). Now consolidate entries so all lenses of a given type are together and so on. You can cut and paste entries in price order. You should end up with an inverted price guide similar to our Bronica S/S2/EC price guide example.
Notice that it is important to recognize when lens or other variants exist which may impact prices, since the items could be different. The Bronica S2/EC 200mm lenses come in three variants labeled as Nikon, Zenzanon, and Komura. Similarly, I noted that a scratch explained the low price on one 150mm lens.
Finally, I provided the condition codes (EX+) as well as the prices. While rating scales vary, they give an approximate condition. You would expect a lower cost lens to be lower rated in condition (say an 8 instead of a 9+ or EX instead of EX++). When they are not, it may be worth looking more closely.

Q: What about using your new personal price guide with EBAY and other auction online sales?
While you can often find good buys on EBAY or Yahoo-Auctions or similar online auction sites, you may assume more risk in doing so than in dealing with dealers. Some auction sites now offer some form of rather limited "guarantees", but these are generally limited and less than a dealer and credit card purchase might provide.
More risk should imply lower prices, but often the competitive bidding process and lack of price information means some buyers often bid too much at online auctions. We even have examples of EBAY used prices exceeding new prices from dealers with warranties on readily available items.
So when you are bidding at online auctions, I recommend you set a maximum price based on stated condition (which I often derate as they are typically over-rated in my experiences online). Don't pay more than used dealer cost, let alone new costs, for the same item without any dealer warranties. Why should you?

Q: What about using your new personal price guide with individual sales?
Once you know what you can buy an item for from dealers, and some feel for its rarity (only a few or one offered on the entire WWW?), you are ready to evaluate individual sellers.
Where can you find individual sellers? See IMPACT used photo gear pages for links to photo classified ad sites at which individuals often advertise photo gear for direct sales. The rec.photo.marketplace groups are also good places to monitor for individual sales. But act fast, as some of us check these listings daily!
It is not unusual to find an odd item selling for a fraction of typical dealer costs. Try to agree on a return warranty if you can. Use the various protections (e.g., USPO money order is recommended by some folks) to avoid being ripped off - see our buyer beware section and articles postings.
As a general rule, I expect individual sellers to get 75-80% of the dealer used costs for similar items - or less, depending on the demand. For collector's items, some pro gear (which may go up in price as similar pro gear becomes even more expensive, like Hasselblad lenses), and rare items, prices may be whatever the market will bear!

Q: Why do you say private buyers and sellers split the dealer markups?
If you offer to sell a camera that will sell for $500 used from the same dealer's web pages, you obviously won't get paid $500 for it. The dealer will offer you circa 30-50% of the expected used selling price. By contrast, a pawn shop owner may offer you 10-15%, sometimes more, usually while using a different trade pricing guide.
Suppose you get an offer of $250 from the dealer. Knowing the camera is probably worth $500 based on the dealer's used prices and those of other dealers online, you decide to sell directly by placing a private ad on rec.photo.marketplace. You know you won't likely get the full service dealer's price of $500, but you hope to get more than $250 which you can get from the dealer. A price of $450 is only a 10% discount from most dealers, and may not get many buyers. Remember that dealer prices vary, often by 30-50% or more, as shown on our Bronica Price Guide. If you split the difference between the dealer's buy offer and selling price, you would ask for $375 ($500-$250 = $250 difference, split in half is $125, added to $250 gives $375 asking price).
From the buyer's standpoint, that $375 price is a nice $125 or 25% discount from the dealer's price. That's enough incentive for many of us to take the extra risks of dealing with an individual and lack of credit card protections and other services and Uniform Commercial Code warranties. From the seller's standpoint, you have made 50% more than the dealer's offer of $250 with your sale at $375. Everybody is happier, except the dealer!

Q: What's the problem with getting a dealer's offer for your gear over the phone?
Recall that most of us over-rate our beloved old cameras and lenses, ignoring the nicks and scratches. Unfortunately, buyers are quite sensitive to those same nicks and scratches as indications of heavy use and possibly abuse. So cameras are rated on an extended scale with fine distinctions on condition. Selling prices vary considerably depending on condition, with truly mint- cameras bringing far more than user grade ones.
Many dealers want to get you to send them your camera, so they will have it in stock and hopefully turn a nice profit from re-selling it. Some dealers will happily quote a very high offer to you, expecting you to send it to them even if you get more realistic bids from other dealers. They may note in passing that "of course, that depends on it being in great condition like you described". But when they get your camera, they are "sorry" to inform you that there are scratches on the tripod mount, so it obviously isn't mint-. Maybe it is really an EX camera, and that means they have to offer you $100 less for it! You want the money, which is why you sent them the camera in the first place, so you will often take the lower offer rather than delay further. See how it works?

Q: What about camera shows?
You can find links to online camera show listings.
Camera shows are fun, and can be a good source of buys if you are properly prepared. Have a want-list of items, along with prices. It may help to have some dealer web-page prices printed out, especially for the low price leaders on some of your wanted items. You can use these to argue down prices in some cases. They will also remind you not to overpay, as you can buy for less at other dealers sometimes too.
Personally, I am more amazed at the folks who pay to get into a camera show so they can sell their bagful of camera gear for $100, or that old nikon F3HP for $100 with that dusty 50mm f/1.4 lens. Many dealers tell me they really go to camera shows to buy stuff from these folks, sometimes to trade items with other local or regional dealers, and only incidentally to sell to local photographers.
Camera shows have one very nice quality - you can check the gear out in person (see camera and lens testing tips). Many of the sellers are actually dealers full-time, offering their regular warranties and just reaching out to new buyers. However, a number of camera show sellers are part-time sellers, repairpersons, or individual sellers (e.g., collectors) who offer minimal or no warranties ("AS-IS"). Buyer beware!
Personally, I find camera shows great places to buy big or bulky items like 6x9 enlargers that look old and nobody wants them. Dealers with boxes of M42 screw mount lenses are also ready to make deals! Many dealers drag out boxes of small items, such as filters and lens caps, that they sell for $1 apiece. Nobody wants darkroom items or older lighting stands, so they go for really cheap prices.
If you are buying a bunch of Hasselblad lenses and offer cash, I have seen folks get some good deals too. I have also seen a dealer buy an AE-1 camera and several lenses for $50 from an individual, then come back to see the new purchase labeled $150 plus $75 per lens on the same table ;-)!
But mostly, I also go to camera shows because it is fun to see so many funky models of cameras and look around for that great buy in a lens or other item that I need, or maybe really don't need but want anyway!

Q: How can I find those hard to find lenses and accessories for my older camera (e.g., Bronica S2, Kodak Medalist, ...)?
Step one is to find out what was available in the way of accessories and lenses. For a Bronica S2 SLR, you might try some older issues of magazines from when they were new in your public library stacks (sometimes on microfiche). Take note of list prices and prices from contemporary ads too. Older camera equipment guides can also help. Some magazines like Modern Photography had annual buying guides in the magazine in the past (now a separate publication). Camera pricing guides (such as McBroom's) will list lenses and accessories for many older models too. You can buy such older equipment guides from online sources such as EBAY or other sites too.
Step two is to make a list of who carrys such vintage equipment. Only a handful of hundreds of online camera dealers carry the Bronica S2 SLRs in any depth, as my list at Used Bronica and Bronica Price Guide makes clear. Look through the used dealer listing at the Jeff Albro's IMPACT! used photo gear pages. You will be able to create a listing of dealers who specialize in your older camera, lenses, and accessories as a set of bookmarks in your browser too. This trick is handy as you can now easily check each dealer's inventory monthly or weekly for new items. Some dealers will also mailout free inventory updates (e.g., Cameta Camera).
Step three is hard work, but may help turn up those rarer lenses and accessories. Email the dealers individually, including a list of your most-wanted items, and ask if they have them in unadvertised stock or know of a source. Again, you can create a list of dealer email addresses, making it easy to send out periodic updates to your most-wanted lists.
A similar trick is to wear a name tag at the next camera show, but have a list of items you want or need. The dealers will be bored enough to read your name tag wanted list, and may direct you to items you might have missed. More often, they will say "Dang!", I have a 40mm noritar lens, but I left it at the shop. Do you really want it?. You can also print up a wanted card the size of a business card and hand it out, listing your contact information and wanted list items. Many laser printers can do a great job on standard card stock that works in the laser printer like regular paper. A "wanted list" on paper can also work, but is more likely to get filed and lost or forgotten than a card that says "Bronica S2 Wanted!!".
Step four is to post Wanted to Buy ads at places like PhotoNet that have free ad postings. You can also post in rec.photo.marketplace in the appropriate forums. A periodic (circa monthly?) posting may be useful given turnover in readership online too.
Step five costs real dollars, but may be helpful for rarer items. Consider a periodic ad (like semi-annually or quarterly) in Shutterbug Ads under the appropriate wanted to buy ad section. Many folks aren't online, especially some of the older users and dealers, but may be avid SA readers. Midwest Photo-Shopper and other camera ad magazines may work for you too.
Step six is to contact experts and collectors, on and off-line, and ask them to let you know if they learn of a source for a given item or short list. Many collectors will turn their noses up at non-collectible condition items you are looking for, or that they already have in their collections. They may also know of contacts and friends who can help.
Step seven is to go international, and hit up some of the over-seas sources. Many times, overseas dealers will have items that are rare in the USA due to local popularity of the camera brand or model being greater in Germany or England than in the USA. Use the listing of foreign dealers at the IMPACT used photogear page links for a starter. Some foreign photo-magazines will also list likely contacts.
Step eight is to compromise or cheat. I would love to have the very rare 30mm nikkor for the Bronica S2. But I have never seen one advertised for sale, let alone at an affordable price. So I use front-of-the-lens fisheye adapters and wide angle lens adapters. Using adapters, I can convert a normal 50mm lens on most 35mm cameras into a 9mm fisheye effect, a 21mm ultrawide, a 30mm wide, or a 38mm wide normal lens, as well as a 65mm and 90mm telephoto lens. The same adapters work with medium format cameras, producing similar imaging effects. For some cameras, these adapters are the only way to get the desired effects!
For panoramic photography, an anamorphic adapter might work for some users and needs. Diopter Lenses may work while you are looking for that super macro-lens. An uncoated lens may substitute for a pricey Ultraviolet lens in UV Photography. The list of temporary lenses and substitutes goes on and on.
If you are still looking for something, consider cheating! You can cheat by modifying an item from another camera to work on your model. Many lenses can be remounted, at least for manual operation, using Lens Mount Adapters. See Lens Registration Table for possible candidate lenses. Bellows can be adapted too. Metering prisms may only need to match the waist-level finder baseplate on that camera's mounting. In short, it is often easier to adapt a common item than find and pay for a rare or collectible item. See our homebrew lenses pages for more ideas!

Q: How can I test a camera or lens?
See our Camera and Lens Testing Tips pages.

Related Postings
From: yaxbalam@rocketmail.com (Stevo)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Subject: Orion Blue Book ( prices )
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999
I copied some pages at the library from a guide called Orion Blue Book ( 1999 ) WHAT A JOKE !
Some examples :

Nikkor 85 f1.4 AI USED retail $177 Whsl mint $104, Whsl avg $58 Nikkor 85 f1.8 AI USED retail $91 Whsl mint $54 Whsl avg $30 Nikkor 50 f1.2 AI USED retail $86 Whsl mint $51 Whsl avg $29

All these lenses command about 3 X the prices stated.
The only reason that I can see for this guide, with it's *completely* ridiculous prices, is for unscrupulous dealers or pawn shops to show naive sellers that their equipment is worth next to nothing.
IMHO the people who published this are SLIME.
Stevo

[Ed. note: I would not agree with the above characterization, but as I have pointed out in my pages above, they are catering to a different market... But if someone pulls out this guide when you want to sell your equipment, I'd run away ;-) ]

[Ed. note: another view of a happy Orion Price Guide user ;-)...]
From: wlewter@aol.com (WLewter)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Subject: Re: Orion Blue Book ( prices )
Date: 21 Apr 1999
I think the point you missed was that, that book is used as a guide. I run a used camera store and we use the blue book as a guide and I agree, some of the prices listed in the book are ridiculous.
I think what you forget is that we buy an item for resale and there isn't any emotional value attached. If you come to me to sell an item, the first thing I would tell you is that you can make more money if you sell it yourself. At that point, you can take or leave my price.
Yes, before you ask, if the item is clean we will pay more than what the book says anyday. Usually by averaging the mint and avg. prices.
So don't knock the guide.
By the way, where is your camera store located?

Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999
From: raymerk@mindspring.com
To: bronica@iList.net
Subject: [BRONICA] Internet Camera Prices
David,
I can't quote the price that S2A'es are bringing on ebay, but I'll give you good rule of thumb... I've equipped virtually my whole studio and darkroom from e-bay and here's what I find reasonable...
1. Pick up an issue of "Shutterbug"..
2. Find all the places that have the same model of camera you just bought, and document the prices for comparable equipment..
3. Take a general average of these prices..
4. If you paid from 20-30% under the average of these prices you got a good deal.. If you paid right at these prices you probably paid to much for on off-the-net purchase, but you still might be okay if the seller is honest... If you paid less, well, more's-the-better...
You can also run price comparisons with KEH, but better add another 5-10% for their prices..
If you're patient and will follow the auctions on e-bay daily, make an informed buying decision, and establish a Maximum bid price over which you will not go by threat of death (auction by auction) you'll be OK...
And hey, if you happen to pay to much for something, well it's just money, as long as you learn from it it's no different than paying for a class at your local community college...
I follow the auctions fairly closely... I do a Bronica search almost daily... I'm in the market for a screen for my etrsi with the 35mm masking lines (anybody got one for sale...) If you don't get caught up in the auction stigma, you'll do OK..
Regards
Kevin
...

Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999
From: TLC tomclark@sprynet.com
Subject: Re: [BRONICA] Internet Camera Prices
I've had experience at both trying to buy from the used vendors who advertize in Shutterbug magazine and trying to sell to those very same vendors. I can tell you that when they are asked to buy something, the price they offer is never more than 1/3 of what they will ultimately ask for it. Naturally, a seller could simply dump his item on one of those used dealers if he wanted to accept such a low price. On the other hand, a buyer could simply pay the used dealer's asking price if he wanted to pay retail. So I think a fair compromise between private parties would be to split the difference. In other words, a private buyer when dealing directly with a private seller should pay no more than 2/3 the Shutterbug used prices.
my $0.02
Tom Clark

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999
From: Ebert Steele k5cad@prodigy.net
Subject: Re: [BRONICA] Internet Camera Prices
Kevin's post is right-on.
The difficulty with trying to devise a formula to set prices is that invariably the market will establish the value. To be sure, there will be variations, but the market will set the mean price.
If I am selling a Bronica GS-1, It doesn't take but one or two issues of Shutterbug to establish a fair price for that camera. There are some subtle issues which impact that: Will the public be a comfortable dealing with you as an established dealer, will the buyers be comfortable with your ability to rate the equipment's condition, how does one sort out the payment issues, what about warranties and returns. When all of those issues get factored in, as an unknown individual, my camera may in fact sell for less than the same one at an established dealer.
There are some things you can do to put you on an even footing with a dealer. Spend some time establishing a relationship. Ever try to buy or sell something to an unknown on the net and they never sign their post with a real name? Or try to get a phone number to talk about the deal and they are reluctant? Shuck 'em fast.
On the other hand, I have been known to send a Leitz lens to an unknown on the net with promise for payment after inspection. Doesn't happen often and I am not advocating others do that. My only point is that a little time, a telephone call or two, a little more openness, can put you ahead of a lot of dealers who leave you feeling like shark bait.
I shy away from people who don't want to do CODs because the think they are risking the shipping cost. Some people expect you to trust them with the whole value of transaction and yet aren't willing to trust you for the value of the shipping. If that's the case and you think its a good deal, offer to send the shipping and COD cost up front.
Even better, find an escrow service. Not fool proof, but a fairly safe way to do business on the net.
The point is, I do not believe that I am somehow less deserving than a dealer to get fair value for my Bronica. And if I think through the transaction, I may even do better.
MY $.02
Ebert Steele

From The Rollei List:
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999
From: Bob Shell bob@bobshell.com
Subject: Re: [Rollei] Where's the Price Competition in MF Equipment

> I have often got things thrown in at my local pro shop where a buy a fair > bit of stuff, and quite a lot of film. A good tip is if you have anything > to trade in, now is the time. If your going to spend a few grand in their > shop they will likely give you a good pirce for your old second hand gear.

Maybe it is different in Australia, but here in the USA it is hardly ever a good idea to trade in gear. Dealers use a Blue Book for pricing trade ins and the prices they will pay you is exactly half of the actual market value of the used equipment. In almost every case you will do better selling it yourself.
Bob

From Rollei Mailing List:
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999
From: "R. J. Bender" rjbender@apci.net
Subject: [Rollei] Haggling like gentlemen
Pricing:
If you don't know what your stuff is worth, ask for offers. If you get a ridiculously low offer, don't get offended.
Have you ever seen those bluebooks that pawn shops use? This is the publisher's website: http://www.bluebook.com/ . I once saw a dealer buy a Mamiya RB67 outfit really cheap with one of those books.
Searching completed auctions on EBay might give you some idea what your stuff is worth unless the seller had their stuff listed under "Rollie".
Searching KEH's listings may give you an average U.S. retail amount: http://www.keh.com/ . Multiplying by .6 will get you close to wholesale.
New York prices?
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/photo/med/rollei/navigation.html
Conduct:
When someone pleads for something you have, ask them "What's it worth?"
http://lq.corenetworks.com/lq/view.cgi?ln=rollei&sp;=271&q;=g+lehrer&a;=1&o;=1&x;=29& y=7&ci;=c097316034∣=18590
or better yet, "Are you prepared to pay?"
http://lq.corenetworks.com/lq/view.cgi?ln=rollei&sp;=301&q;=g+lehrer&a;=1&o;=1&x;=29& y=7&ci;=c097316034∣=19165
Maybe it's best to DEMAND an offer like this guy:
http://lq.corenetworks.com/lq/view.cgi?ln=rollei&sp;=251&q;=stick&b;=1&o;=1&x;=22&y;=9 &ci;=c099317679∣=19362
R. J. Bender (A Nikon, Mamiya and Rollei user. )
mailto:rjbender@apci.net

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999
From: Bob Shell bob@bobshell.com
Subject: Re: [Rollei] Lens cap for baby Rollei / insult or not
Mark,
The reason many ads do not have prices but say "Call" is something called MAP.
That stands for Minimum Advertised Price. Under law a manufacturer or distributor can not set the actual selling price of an item. That is up to the dealer. But many manufacturers/distributors do set MAP, the lowest price a dealer is allowed to advertise on a specific product. When a dealer puts "Call" in an ad it usually means they are selling the item for less than the MAP. Bob

Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999
From: John Coan jcoan@alumni.duke.edu
Subject: [Rollei] Where's the Price Competition in MF Equipment
Why do all the camera stores price MF equipment exactly the same? For example, I was pricing the Contax 645 basic starter kit over the weekend. Without exception, the web sites I looked at had it at $3999. One small exception was at Camera World of Oregon, which had it priced the same but provided free shipping. I believe the same situation would apply to Rollei 6000 pricing (but I haven't looked around as much.)
Do the distributors set a floor price and punish dealers who go below? I thought "fair" trade laws went out in the sixties. It just seems like non perfect market forces are at work here. The rules of economics say there should be *some* variation based on how much profit a dealer is willing to take.
On a related topic, are there any dealers who will "deal" on something like this? We already know some will throw in shipping. How about throwing in an extra back, or insert, or something like that? What's the best way to maximize the scarce dollar?
The used market for this model also seems non-existent. There is one guy on eBay now auctioning off an entire Contax 645 system with many lenses; but his reserves seem to be approaching the aforementioned prices (and he has zero feedback rating, ouch!).

Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999
From: David Seifert dseifert@zyan.com
Subject: Re: [Rollei] Where's the Price Competition in MF Equipment
Hi John,
With Contax equipment it goes something like this. Dealers agree to abide by something called the "Minimum Advertised Price" or MAP. While they are not constrained to actually sell no lower than this price they are enjoined to advertise a lower price. This is one of the reasons for the annoying "Call for price" citation so common in magazine advertising. If a dealer violated the MAP agreement they may well have their dealship withdrawn. I know that competing stores watch each other like hawks to be sure everyone is playing the game and they complain bitterly to the importer when an infraction occurs. There used to be a healthy grey market for Contax equipment but now most of the big NY dealers have stopped offering grey equipment. I am not sure how Contax managed this but it has made a difference in dealer margins. Parallel import goods (grey market) cost less because they are not burdened with the significant US marketing cost. The bad news is that sometimes we rely on a healthy US importer/distributor for support and market value retention so there is a price to be paid on the back end for grey market purchases.
In the case of Contax 645 stuff, it is very new and in very high demand. Dealers can't keep the stuff in inventory. This precludes any real price breaks except to a dealer's very best customers. Bear in mind that at $3,999 (MAP for the kit) the dealer is not likely to be making enough margin to throw in a back. Be glad if you get an additional $200 off!
In the case of Mamiya equipment, the US distributor has a stranglehold on the supply and they control their prices very effectively. There is no gray market of Mamiya stuff.
Rollei equipment is a bit different. In years past there was a substantial discount for grey market goods but since Samsung took over marketing the Rollei pro equipment they have adjusted their prices to make the grey stuff much less attractive.
My best advice is to find a local dealer who understands that mailorder works fine and B&H; really is his competitor. Once you have found such a dealer, and they do exist, give him ALL your business. By doing so you will establish yourself as a serious client worthy of special consideration. On the other hand, you must also understand that he won't be able to sell you USA merchandise at grey prices.
Hope this helps somewhat.
Best Regards,
David Seifert

Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999
From: Bob Shell bob@bobshell.com
Subject: Re: [Rollei] Where's the Price Competition in MF Equipment

> Do the distributors set a floor price and punish dealers who go below? > I thought "fair" trade laws went out in the sixties. It just seems like > non perfect market forces are at work here. The rules of economics say > there should be *some* variation based on how much profit a dealer is > willing to take.

It's sort of a loophole in the laws. Distributors can not tell the dealer how much they can sell something for. What they can and do is set MAP (Minimum Advertised Price), the lowest price a dealer is allowed to advertise and collect co-op. Most dealers get advertising co-op money from the distrubutors based on their volume of purchases, so the dealer may be getting the ad for very little or even free. If the dealer wants to advertise a lower price there is nothing to stop him, but he won't get the co-op money and will have to pay for the ad himself.

> On a related topic, are there any dealers who will "deal" on something > like this? We already know some will throw in shipping. How about > throwing in an extra back, or insert, or something like that? What's > the best way to maximize the scarce dollar?

Many dealers will cut below MAP verbally. Some even do it on their websites by having a different price on the actual sales order page than on the advertising page. This way they don't lose co-op but still sell below MAP. Distributors are disturbed by this practice and looking for ways to stop it, but for now it persists.

> The used market for this model also seems non-existent. There is one > guy on eBay now auctioning off an entire Contax 645 system with many > lenses; but his reserves seem to be approaching the aforementioned > prices (and he has zero feedback rating, ouch!).

Probably someone who picked up the outfit overseas and wants to turn a quick profit.
Bob

Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999
From: Denton Taylor denton@asan.com
Subject: Re: [Rollei] Where's the Price Competition in MF Equipment
you wrote:

>Why do all the camera stores price MF equipment exactly the same? For >example, I was pricing the Contax 645 basic starter kit over the >weekend. Without exception, the web sites I looked at had it at $3999. >One small exception was at Camera World of Oregon, which had it priced >the same but provided free shipping. I believe the same situation would >apply to Rollei 6000 pricing (but I haven't looked around as much.)

It's 'suggested' by the manufacturer under 'minimun advertised price. Since it is a hot item, and the demand is higher than the supply, there would be no incentive anyway for someone to sell cheaper. He would not be able to get enough to sell. When supply catches up with demand, maybe we'll see something happen...
Regards,
Denton Taylo

Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999
From: "A. H. Ongun" ahongun@ecsysinc.com
Subject: Re: [Rollei] Where's the Price Competition in MF Equipment
....

> On a related topic, are there any dealers who will "deal" on something > like this? We already know some will throw in shipping. How about > throwing in an extra back, or insert, or something like that? What's > the best way to maximize the scarce dollar? >

Some distributors set the minimum advertised price for their products e.g. Rollei, Leica, B+W, Mamiya...
However the selling price can be different, an example is B + W filters from B&H;, the actual price is cheaper than the catalog price. I have been able to deal with the dealers when making a major purchase in $xx,xxx. amounts, your mileage will vary.
Andy

From Rollei Mailing List:
Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999
From: "imagineero ." imagineero@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: [Rollei] Where's the Price Competition in MF Equipment
....
I am living in Australia and my experience has been very similar. We have pretty much fixed pricing on all MF gear over here too. The stores seem *very* reluctant to do deals on this type of gear, it seems they just don't want to sell it. I can only guess at the profit margins they are making as compared to 35mm which they practically give away. It is not impossible however to get a better deal;
I have often got things thrown in at my local pro shop where a buy a fair bit of stuff, and quite a lot of film. A good tip is if you have anything to trade in, now is the time. If your going to spend a few grand in their shop they will likely give you a good pirce for your old second hand gear. Secondly, while I have never received a discount, and I have never heard of anyone getting a better deal through mail order or over the phone it is much more possible to get better deals 'in the flesh'. If you ask around and find a good reputable dealer, actually go in, with cash if possible and talk turkey. They will often throw in something small. A filter or two, some film or other accessories. A back might be possible, but unlikely.
Good Luck!

From Rollei Mailing List:
Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999
From: John Coan jcoan@alumni.duke.edu
Subject: Re: [Rollei] Where's the Price Competition in MF Equipment
Based on all the responses I've gotten (thanks to all of you) it seems that market forces really are at work here -- demand exceeds supply so everyone is selling at the minimun advertised price -- which is a defacto price ceiling. They cannot go up, because they lose business to the shop a few pages over or down the street, and there's no incentive to go down because they know they will get the asking price because of the popularity of this model and new status and scarcity of supply. The best that can be hoped for are a few concessions here and there, nothing major, until supply catches up. My prediction is that when demand softens the distributor will offer rebates or the like, and the effective price will be lower (but still the same from dealer to dealer). Mamiya is doing this now on their 645 -- buy one now and get a free zoom lens. I expect they are trying to unload the manual focus models in anticipation of the AF body. Of course, the AF body will provide some competition to Contax too! Isn't free enterprise great!
....

From Rollei Mailing List:
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999
From: Tim Ellestad ellestad@mailbag.com
Subject: Re: [Rollei] Where's the Price Competition in MF Equipment
David Seifert wrote -

>In the case of Contax 645 stuff, it is very new and in very high demand. >Dealers can't keep the stuff in inventory. This precludes any real price >breaks except to a dealer's very best customers. Bear in mind that at >$3,999 (MAP for the kit) the dealer is not likely to be making enough margin >to throw in a back. Be glad if you get an additional $200 off!

True. Also, production of this Contax stuff has apparently been very modest, to date, with deliveries on a selective basis (according to my dealer). I think that one thing will always be a consistent element in MF pricing - small sales volume. In a RAMPAGING MF market, sales will be a spit in the wind compared to 35mm SLR or point-and-shoot sales. The amount of money that a retailer has tied up in MF inventory, the small margins, and the comparably low sales volume make any involvement in MF retail questionable. I'll bet that even acceptable sales volumes have profits that are low enough that it might be wiser to just put the money into the stock market, rather than MF inventory. My local dealers (not a major market, I'll admit) that carry MF equipment say that they just do it for the overall store image. I know from watching their displays that turn-over is real S...L...O...W and, thus, the MF merchandise uses shelf space and overhead with out being very productive. If they make anything less than the typical margin, there will be no reason to handle MF gear at all.
The comparatively tiny production volume of MF equipment should tell the whole story. Unfortunately, our photographic passions have lured us into the realm of some pretty exclusive hardware.
Tim Ellestad
ellestad@mailbag.com

From Rollei Mailing List:
Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999
From: LotusM50 Lotusm50@sprynet.com
Subject: Re: [Rollei] Where's the Price Competition in MF Equipment
Where is Mamiya give a free zoom now with their 654 AF? They were in town last week at the local pro shop and all they were offering was the std 10% visit discount. Mamiya claimed the the model in my hand was the only prototype in the country.
The basic outfit price is high at $3750, especially when compared to the Contax 645 at $3999. The Zeiss 80/2.0 is hand down a better built (and probably performing, although hI haven't tested them) lens than the cheap plasticky Mamiya 645AF 80/2.8. (and you even lose a stop with the Mamiya). The manual focus had no resistance what so ever. Furthermore the M645 does not have interchangeable viewfinders like the C645. The Mamiya handled OK, but far from a nice as the Contax. Autofocus wasn't great, it had difficulty focusing in the shop. One good thing about the M645 is that it will take all the old Mamiya 645 manual focus lenses, which can be had very cheap. At the price the Contax 645 seems to be a bargain compared to the Mamiya.
Outside the US, as is common for Mamiya products, the M645 should be half the price making it a better deal than the C645, but its far from a better camera. I was hoping that new Mamiya 645 would be significantly less expensive than the Contax to drive the price of the Contax down through competition. At $3750 for the Mamiya, Contax can sit tight at $3999 and just take orders (if they can produce enough). Unless you've got a stash of old Mamiya lenses, a side by side will sell the Contax every time at those prices. We'll have to see how prices move over the next 6 months, I expect that the Mamiya will have to come down in price, or perhaps, offer that free zoom after all.
....

[Ed. note: notice effecat of promotions etc.]
From Rollei Mailing List:
Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999
From: John Coan jcoan@alumni.duke.edu
Subject: Re: [Rollei] Where's the Price Competition in MF Equipment
The brochure on the free zoom came today from Mamiya America Corporation. "Special Mamiya demonstration and supersale invitation. Sekonic, Profoto, and Toyo-View Too!" it says. "One day only supersale. tuesday, october 19th 9am - 4pm at Camera Corner. 4619 West Market Street, Greensboro, NC 27407."
"During this one day only, take an extra 10% off our best price. Cameras, lenses, meters, plus many one-of-a-kind specials. Limited quantities -first come/ first served. Sale limited to inventory on-hand. Get here early!"
Now here's the part about the zoom:
645 Pro TL "purchase Camera body, any Lens, any Film Magazine and AE Prism Finder. receive One Free Zoom Lens: Choose 55-110mm f/4.5 or 105-210 mm f/4.5. Value up to $1,800."
Honest, that's what it said. All sorts of other "buy this, get that" stuff too.
I figured this was going around all over. I'll be out of the country so I won't be there. If you come I would certainly call the store first to verify the brochure, especially if you ain't a tarheel from around these here parts and have to drive a long way.
John

[Ed. note: now note the catch in the free deal ;-)]
Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999
From: LotusM50 Lotusm50@sprynet.com
Subject: Re: [Rollei] Where's the Price Competition in MF Equipment
Ahh. The free zoom deal is for the 645 Pro TL, NOT the new autofocus 645. (that's the catch) Actually I don't even think Mamiya has a zoom ready for the autofocus 645., although the prices on the primes that will be available are half the cost of the Zeiss Contax 645 lenses.

From Rollei Mailing List:
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999
From: Greg Kuhnen kuhneng@MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [Rollei] Where's the Price Competition in MF Equipment
I agree wholeheartedly with the recommendations for "in the flesh" dealings. B&H; is great, but for those of us not in NYC who like to browse and chat, it's nice to have a local shop that knows you.
I've been dealing with Calumet Photographic in Boston (well, Cambridge) for a few years now and I've never been sorry. In fact, it was their willingness to make a deal that got me into Rollei in the first place. (although they're not an official distributor) Everyone I've dealt with behind the counter shoots, many professionally. One visit I noticed the salesman (Cole) pause and smile when I handed him my Visa. The photo on the front was his, and it was the first time he'd seen it in use.
Apologies for the off topic post.
Greg

From Rollei Mailing List
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999
From: "imagineero ." imagineero@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: [Rollei] Where's the Price Competition in MF Equipment

> > I have often got things thrown in at my local pro shop where a buy a >fair > > bit of stuff, and quite a lot of film. A good tip is if you have >anything > > to trade in, now is the time. If your going to spend a few grand in >their > > shop they will likely give you a good pirce for your old second hand >gear. > > >Maybe it is different in Australia, but here in the USA it is hardly ever a >good idea to trade in gear. Dealers use a Blue Book for pricing trade ins >and >the prices they will pay you is exactly half of the actual market value of >the >used equipment. In almost every case you will do better selling it >yourself. > >Bob

Yeah, I guess it's a little different. You'll usually get bitten badly when selling them your equipment, maybe about 10%-20%. Trading in might get you up to half, but there are some situations where things change. If you are spending big $$$ on MF gear they will often give you decent prices (70%-80%) on gear. This might not sound too good, but it is if you have a less than perfect piece of gear or something that you just can't move due to lack of interest. We don;t have a big market for pro gear in Aus, and there really isn't a venue for selling it. There is a classified newspaper called the trading post which is popular, but nobody wants to pay reasonable prices. I got $350 (*australian* dollars) for a AF-60mm2.8 micro which I wasn't using and it wasn't in really great shape. (as an aside, why are there *so* many of those buggers on the used market? I bought mine as part of a deal with a guy on a 801 with 24-120 and an SB28 for a bargain price, but I don't think I'd ever buy one new). Trading in an item like this whcih would be hard to sell can be useful.

From Rollei Mailing List;
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999
From: Bob Shell bob@bobshell.com
Subject: Re: [Rollei] Rollei 110/2.0 Any user out there ?
.....
The most expensive lens I've ever shot with is the 1000mm Mirotar. I got the Contax people to loan me one for a couple of days once. Ridiculously expensive at something over $ 50,000! Sharpest mirror lens I ever saw, though. Guess you'd expect that.
Bob

Subject: Re: Dating older cameras?
From: "Jim Williams" jlw@nospam.net
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999

>Does anyone have, or know where I can find a resource to determine the >date of manufacture of older (not so collectible) cameras? Things like >a rangefinder RICOH "35", or an ARGUS C-3? I am looking to see if I >can pin down exact manufacture dates based on serial numbers (?). Any >help? Thanks. - Bob Erdman.

Resources such as McKeown's Price Guide to Collectible Cameras (which covers almost everything, not just primo "collectibles") and the Hove Foto Blue Book will help narrow down manufacturing dates to year ranges, and sometimes more exactingly based on minor model variations (such as those that occurred on the Argus C-3 over the eons that it was in production.)
But most mass-market cameras don't have the kinds of serial-number lists that are available for old Leicas and a few other collectibles -- usually these lists have to be pieced together by diligent enthusiasts through tedious research of records that factories may not be too cooperative about making available. When the manufacturer is defunct, like Argus, it's even harder.
With many older cameras, serial numbers aren't an exact guide to production dates anyway -- the bodies or top covers often were numbered in batches at the time they were cast or stamped, and not assembled into cameras until considerably later. Some manufacturers (e.g. Canon) would pull parts out of bins in non-numerical order depending on the mix that the final assembler needed to get the required tolerances, so there's not even any guarantee that two cameras with sequential serial numbers were manufactured at the same time! So, determining *exact* manufacture dates based on serial number may be an impossible dream, and not too relevant anyhow!

From: McInnes mcinnes@nimec.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.misc
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000
Subject: Value database for second hand equipment
I've added a database to record the price of second hand equipment for reference - let you see a price range before you part with your money. Any submissions would be appreciated.
http://www.uk-photography.net

[Ed. note: package deals can save $$ to buyers, ease selling items too]
From Pentax Mailing List:
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000
From: "dpconsult@mail.integrityonline21.com" dpconsult@mail.integrityonline21.com
Subject: Re: Re: medium format question coming up..

Excellent choice. And they do go CHEAP if you're patient. For instance, I got my first C220 last year at a garage sale for $100.
Later I bought a whole C330 outfit from a gentleman (part-time wedding photographer) in Texas. (This is worth looking at as an acquisition method.) He sold the whole outfit (C330F, C330S, 55mm, 65mm, 80mm, 135mm, 180mm, 250mm, Tamrac bag) for $1250. If you find the same type of bundle in good shape, get one and part it out. The parts are VERY OFTEN worth more than the whole. What you can end up with is something pretty nice for near zero investment. (If cash flow allows.)
These bundles are on eBay regularly and you can watch for the ones that are priced high to start with but don't sell. Ask prudent questions, make an offer. All they can say is "No".
Collin

From Hasselblad Mailing List:
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000
From: Frank Filippone red735i@earthlink.net
Subject: Used prices in general
Dealers pay 50% of used price, at most, for common stuff. Consumers try pay about 60-70% of new......depending on equipment...
My experience says that on used Hasselblad, if I as a user pay 66% of new for a mint used piece, I can usually get another consumer to sell to me. Dealers have asked even more than new for used pieces.....
Many dealers offer 30-35% of a new price......IF they can get away with it!
I remember seeing a pair of Leica M3's sold to a local dealer for $2000... with $5000 worth of lenses and he resold them in 10 minutes. ( no, not me ) His profit was a tidy $7500 on a $2K investment.
But then again, I saw a 500 APO Tessar sold for $1800 from a knowledgeable dealer..... I guess a lot depends on the financial position of the dealer. How badly does he want to unload the lens.....or maybe, how he received the lens......Lenses with poor provenance are more desirable to sell more quickly....
Frank Filippone
red735i@earthlink.net

From Rollei Mailing List:
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000
From: Marc James Small msmall@roanoke.infi.net
Subject: McKeown's! Firm Word Of Sorts!
I received my Pre-Publication announcement today. The cost is $112 for the hardback and $101 for the softback, both postpaid in the US. Orders at this price must be recieved by 15 DEC 00.
Marc
msmall@roanoke.infi.net

From Rollei Mailing List:
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000
From: Marc James Small msmall@roanoke.infi.net
Reply to: rollei@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
Subject: [Rollei] Re: [ZICG] McKeown's! Firm Word Of Sorts!
Pat Mullen wrote:

>How can I place an order for a copy? Centennial Photo 11595 State Road 70 Grantsburg Wisconsin 54840 tel: +715/689-2153 FAX: 715-689-2277 mckeown@camera-net.com

He does accept VISA and MASTERCARD, but these cost $4 more.
Marc
msmall@roanoke.infi.net

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000
From: Tony Spadaro tony_tony_tony@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Subject: Re: Selling used cameras to NYC scam shops?
I don't know specifically about cameras but in general the offer on used equipment will be about 1/3 to 1/2 the expected selling price, and only after an inspection.
An honest shop has to have some sort of written or at least implied guarantee for the used goods they sell, and hidden defects can cost a bundle.
I got lowballed on a couple cameras once because it was claimed the shop was going to put a lot of work into them. They sold them without doing any work on them, and I found out later from the man who did their repairs that this was SOP at the shop. Buy low claiming expenses to be incurred. sell high to the naive. I was naive myself. I learned.
--
Digital photo restoration in autumnal Chapel Hill NC
http://www.homeusers.prestel.co.uk/magor/tony
New - A Digital Workflow + Sharpness: Threat or Menace?
And Selecting Your First SLR - Java must be enabled

From Nikon MF Mailing List;
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000
From: Mike Perkowitz map@cs.washington.edu
Subject: Re: Is there a "blue book" for evaluating Nikon equipment?
it's been my experience that blue book values (at least for things for which there's still an active market, especially where some things are valued for being vintage) are significantly lower than real replacement costs. those blue books exist so that those crusty guys who work at used equipment stores can pull them out as evidence when they offer you $35 for your mint AIS 105/2.5. hedge your bets by looking to KEH or ebay, or getting an estimate of "street value" from someone friendly who works at a used camera shop.
(please, no debate on keh, ebay, etc prices; my point is just that you want to get real street replacement costs, or at least balance the blue book underestimate with an ebay overestimate)
m

From Nikon MF Mailing List;
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000
From: wdshpbiz@aol.com
Subject: Re: Is there a "blue book" for evaluating Nikon equipment?
Although eBay and KEH prices may give a more accurate view of the market, your insurance carrier is probably looking for an "authoritative" book price. There are three I know:
McBroom's Camera Bluebook was recently released in a new updated edition. It's available from Amherst Media. This one is one of the better ones because it is reasonable, current, and has listings for lots of lenses and accessories as well. See www.amherstmedia.com.
Orion Blue Book. This is the one behind the counter at the camera shop. These are very expensive to buy, but you'll occassionally see non-current editions for sale on eBay.
McKeown's Price Guide to Antique and Classic Still Cameras by Jim McKeown. I'm not sure what the current edition is, but lots of collectors use this one. Again, you'll find old copies for sale on eBay.
Lind's List Camera Price Guide and Master Data Catalog 1996-97. Amazon.com sells this. McKeown is listed as one of the authors. I've never seen it, but it sounds like it's list prices, not market prices.
Those are the ones I know about, but maybe somebody else knows some others.
William Sampson
http://hometown.aol.com/wdshpbiz/AImod.html

From Rangefinder Mailing List:
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001
From: Stephen Gandy Stephen@CameraQuest.com
Subject: Re: [RF List] Japanese Range Finder info
For an overall view of most classic cameras made, book sources in English, useful in identifying a camera, the best sources I've found are
McKeowns Camera Price Guide
Hove Camera Price Guide
Lind's List Camera Price Guide
-- all the price guides suffer from the same problem, some prices are too high, some too low, some are way off, but its a volatile market so that is to be expected
The Collector's Guide to Japanese Cameras
all of the above over good information, but all may miss cameras which were made only a short time. For that purpose, I've found a set of the yearly buying guides from the American magazines Popular Photography and Modern Photography invaluable. Once a year, each magazine would publish a list of everything (or almost everything) available that year in the US. Popular usually did it in May starting in 1949, Modern in December starting in 1956.
Stephen

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001
From: "A. P." angelo_p@gmx.net
Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace.35mm
Subject: Re: FS: Nikkor 15mm f/3.5 Rectilinear
Charles "Stretch" Ledford StretchL@Mindspring.com wrote

> > It's in "near mint" condition. ("Mint" would mean that the box had not > > been opened, or, if it had been, that the lens had never been unwrapped > > from the plastic.) > > Yes, Mark. I'm basing my rating of the lens on the standards KEH uses, to > the best of my understanding.

KEH grading system, as described on its web page http://www.keh.com/faq/faq_grading.cfm ), does not use MINT. They use NEW DEMO, Like New, Like New-, ...
None of the grading listed by KEH relates to an item that has never been "touched by human hands after it's left the factory".
I would still consider that the "NEW" grading would be applicable to something that has been taken out of the box by/for a potential customer and then packaged back they way it was shipped from the manufacturer.
As for Shutterbug grading system, as listed on they web site: http://www.shutterbug.net/classifieds/classified.htm , a MINT item may not even include the original packaging or the manual and MUST HAVE BEEN PRE-OWNED.
So Charles, where did you get YOUR definition of MINT?

KEH grading system: NEW As packaged by manufacturer. Manufacturer's USA warranty. Never used or owned by a consumer. NEW DEMO As packaged by manufacturer. Manufacturer's USA warranty. Never owned by a consumer but used as demonstration equipment. May show various stages of wear including slight dings or pecks. LN "Like New" Perfect. Includes original box and instructions and any manufacturer provided accessories. LN- "Like New Minus" Perfect, but without box, instructions or accessories. EX+ "Excellent Plus" 90-99% of the original condition. Exceptionally nice. May have slight marks on finish. Glass very clean. EX "Excellent" 80-89% of the original condition. Shows moderate wear. May have small dings, pecks and slight finish wear. Glass may have some dust, but no marks. BGN "Bargain" 70-79% of original condition. Shows more than average wear. May have dents, dings and a goodly amount of brassing and finish loss. Glass may have marks that should not affect picture quality. UG "Ugly" Very rough looking. Multiple impressions in metal, excessive finish loss and brassing are likely. Glass will have marks, fungus or haze that will probably affect picture quality.
SHUTTERBUG grading system: SB NEW Never sold to a customer and never used. New as shipped by the manufacturer or distributor with all original packing and instruction manuals. Merchandise sold as _NEWO must be eligible for full warranty service from the officially authorized importer/distributor in the U.S.A. SB NEW CANNOT BE ADVERTISED IN THE CLASSIFIED ADS. SB MINT 100% original finish. Just like factory new, but may not include original packing material or instruction books. Must be pre-owned to qualify as SB MINT. SB EXCELLENT PLUS (SB EX+) 90 to 99% original finish. Used very little, but obviously used. No major marring of finish or brassing. Optics perfect. Mechanically perfect. SB EXCELLENT (SB EX) 80 to 89% original finish. May have a finish flaw or two which detract from appearance, but must be optically and mechanically perfect. SB EXCELLENT MINUS (SB EX-) 70 to 79% original finish. May have relatively large flaws in finish which do not affect function. Must be optically and mechanically perfect. SB GOOD (SB G) 60 to 69% original finish. Must be complete, but may be scratched or scuffed. Metal may show wear but should have no corrosion, rust or pits. Must be optically and mechanically perfect. SB FAIR (SB F) 50 to 59% original finish. May or may not be perfectly functional, but all functional defects must be clearly stated in ad. Would not be attractive to the eye. SB UGLY (SB UG) 50% or less original finish. Well used and worn. May have missing parts or may not be fully functional. All defects must be clearly stated in ad.

...

rec.photo.equipment.35mm
From: ledmrvm@aol.com (LEDMRVM)
Date: Thu Feb 01 2001
[1] Re: McKeown's Price Guide

>Has anyone purchased the new 2001-2002 edition of the McKeown's Price Guide >to >Antique & Classic Cameras? What do you think of it? I've been using the >95-96 >version and noticed that there are lots of camera not listed in there. > >Anyone know of a source that has this book in stock at a good price? I've >seen >them mostly $95-105 for the paperback.

I bought the hardback pre-publication in December. It is 300(?) pages longer than the 97-98 edition, and contains many more cameras. There IS A MUCH GREATER difference between the 97-98 and 2000-2001 editions than there was between the 95-96 and the 97-98 editions.
I can't help you on price.
Regards,
Ed M.

From Nikon MF Mailing List;
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001
From: Henry Posner/B&H; Photo-Video henryp@bhphotovideo.com
Subject: Re: Price Guides
you wrote:

>I am starting to unpack all of my nikon equipment to sell. I have 40- >50 items, some of which I don't even know anything about. Guess old >age has finally caught up with me. This doesn't include bodies or >lenses. Does anyone know where I can get a price Guide that would >include most of these items?

Someone else posted this, last December:
McBroom's Camera Bluebook was recently released in a new updated edition. It's available from Amherst Media. This one is one of the better ones because it is reasonable, current, and has listings for lots of lenses and accessories as well. See www.amherstmedia.com.
Orion Blue Book. This is the one behind the counter at the camera shop. These are very expensive to buy, but you'll occasionally see non-current editions for sale on eBay.
McKeown's Price Guide to Antique and Classic Still Cameras by Jim McKeown. I'm not sure what the current edition is, but lots of collectors use this one. Again, you'll find old copies for sale on eBay.
Lind's List Camera Price Guide and Master Data Catalog 1996-97. Amazon.com sells this. McKeown is listed as one of the authors. I've never seen it, but it sounds like it's list prices, not market prices.

-- regards, Henry Posner Director of Sales and Training B&H; Photo-Video, and Pro-Audio Inc. http://www.bhphotovideo.com

Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001
From: jbh@magicnet.net (John Hicks)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.large-format
Subject: Re: ebay vs the dealers
heavysteam@aol.comzapcrap (Heavysteam) wrote:

>They want to buy from you at less than half the "book value" but want to sell >to you at 150% to 200% of book value.

That's the flaw in your statement; the "book" doesn't count.
The nature of the business is that dealers offer trade-in or buy for roughly half of what they think they can sell the item for, and price the item a bit higher to leave some negotiating room. And that's the way it's been as long as a used-camera market has existed.
What appears to be a huge profit must be tempered by the facts that some of those items will have or develop problems and will have to be repaired, and some of them will sit around forever.
Of course some dealers are absurd, as are some ebay sellers.
What never seems to occur to anyone about retail dealers is that the tremendous profit is whittled down by rent, utilities, insurance, payroll etc.
So when retail dealers are told "I can get it cheaper on ebay" and "I can sell it for more on ebay" of course they get a little testy.
Ebay has had a tremendous effect. The camera-show market has vanished, _many_ local camera dealers have vanished, and ebay has become the reality of the business.
Overall, that's raised prices, and it's eliminated the security value of buying from a good local dealer.
I think ebay has to some extent been good for dealers. They've been able to close their storefronts and get rid of the big overhead and sell what decent used items they come across for ridiculously high prices on ebay. This is, of course, limited and those dealers are wandering off into different businesses.
---
John Hicks

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: wiltw@aol.com (Wilt W)
Date: Sat Jul 07 2001
[1] Re: Bronica ETRS cost
Buy yourself a copy of Shutterbug magazine at the magazine stand. Many stores and individuals adverstise used goods there, and you can get an idea. There is also a 'blue book' for used camera equipment which is available.

From: " E-MAIL" karico@sbcglobal.net To: rmonagha@post.cis.smu.edu Subject: Russian Cameras Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 Robert, I'm suprised no one answered your request for information on the Yahoo russian camera group. http://www.fedka.com/Frames/Main_Frame.htm Fedka has high end priced stuff, is in NY and will replace or refund. http://www.sovietcamera.com.ua/ Priluk is on the low end of the price scale, ships from Russia and (claims) his gear is checked by a repairman. The cameras are users but show up with case and lens cap and most purchasers have been happy ..http://www.russiansouvenirs.com/cameras.htm Frank is an American in Moscow and the prices are slightly above average but are usually very good. I hope this gives you some comparisons, shipping will be $10 to $15, Holding the camera in your hand and not waiting 3 weeks is worth?? Kurt Arico Calif.
From russian camera mailing list: Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 From: "tigerarm2000" tigerarm2000@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: prices guide? --- In russiancamera@y..., Robert Monaghan rmonagha@p...> wrote: > Anybody have a price guide to russian cameras and lenses they are willing > to share or post? I have created a few for some medium format cameras > (http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/kowapg.html and medfmt.8k.com/bronpg.html for > kowa 6/66 and bronica s2/EC). > > If not, are there any sites with reasonable prices for each of the common > models and costs? There are kiev price guides for the medium format kits > (see links under kiev at mf/cameras.html). These are quite handy in > showing the range of prices asked by the various dealers with links to > sites or ebay sales pages. > > I may get to a local camera show later this month, and if so, I would > like to have a guide to reasonable prices. Last time, the seller had all > his russian rangefinders at one price ($75 US$) and as is (no warranty) > > thanks for sharing any URLs or suggestions! bobm Hello Robert, I have visited your website many times and have learned a lot from the many excellent articles. Thank you very much for sharing the knowledge. And I must say I agree to most of your opinions. I have only one piece of information to offer. According to a major Russian camera dealer, the import price of Kiev 60 has increased considerably. The selling price of a Kiev 60 set has incresed from RMB1,100 last year to RMB1,600 now. I think this will also take place in the US. Zhang

[Ed. note: probably long sold by time you read this, posted here for info only...] From: Alan Peterman al@dsl-only.net Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace Subject: FS: 2002 Orion Camera Blue Book Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 Cameras of all kinds (35mm, medium format, view cameras, DIGITAL cameras, TLR & more) as well as projectors, light meters, tripods, lights, movie equipment and LOTS more are all covered - there are OVER 22,000 items from 400+ companies with descriptions, original price, and used values. This was my personal copy of the 2002 Blue Book, and it was only used a few dozen times, so it's in LIKE NEW condition. This is NOT a shop worn copy from a used equipment dealer. These are $144 new - I'll take HALF that - $72!!!

From: Christopher Perez chrisper@exgate.tek.com Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Subject: Re: Prices dropping/digital thread... Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 It's probably been said before, but the only things that seem to hold their value is Hasselblad gear. Everything else is WAY down. For the cost of a used/mint Hasselblad 500CM with 80mm lens and extra back, I picked up an entire Mamiya RZ kit with three backs and four lenses, extra screens, and accessories. On the one hand it's rather sad to see the value of MF camera gear drop like a rock. OTOH, it's quite exciting to be able to finally afford a few nice things... but only if I can stay employed... and remain true to Luddite traditions... :-) Rabbitbert wrote: > Hey! I started that "Are used medium format camera prices dropping?" thread > and I'm now amazed how it has just totally gone into a digital discussion. :) > I'm not criticizing this turn of events, I'm just amused by the drift. > Still, as a Rapid Omega owner (have three of 'em) I see prices on these and > the Koni Omegas down substantially. I just have to accept the fact that the > stuff I own just isn't selling for what I once paid for it. Still, the RO's > have held their value better this computer which is worth about 7 or 8 % of > what I paid for it. > > R.

From: "Jeremy" jeremy@nospam.thanks.com Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Subject: Re: first TLR, very cheap Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 "whitewave" marcob81NOSPAM@tiscali.it wrote ... > But it isn't true that EM or LM goes for 50$, the price for all > these camera from Yashica are very high on ebay. I have seen many photographic items on eBay that were priced higher than they could be purchased from photo dealers' web sites. eBay is not always the most economical source for used equipment. Either the sellers believe that what they are offering is "rare," and price it in accordance with those expectations, or buyers are not knowledgeable about appropriate prices, and they offer more than items are worth. Either way, it is hit-or-miss when it comes to finding bargains on eBay. Even worse is the tendency of the seller to overrate the condition of the item, so you don't often know how much of a bargain you got until you receive it and inspect it yourself. You might find the following online site helpful as a guide to pricing used photo equipment: http://photographics.com
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