Related Local Links:
Adjusting Alignment
Checking a Kiev88
Diopters for Kievs (vision correction)
Kiev 88 Film Back Adjustments [5/2004]
Film Flatness in Kiev
Film Flatness Testing
Hasselblad/Kiev Origins Mystery by Sam Sherman [4/2001]
Hartblei 1006 Posting
Arax 60 TTL SLR Review by Mike Matthews [8/2004]
Iskra Folder
Kiev 88 Film Magazine Loading Instructions by Kevin Kalsbeek
Kiev 88 and 60 TTL Prism Recalibration Techniques by Kevin Kalsbeek
Kiev 88 Do's and Don'ts Guide by Kevin Kalsbeek
Kiev 88 and Kiev 60 Buyers Guide by Edward Lau (Sept. 2000)
Kiev 88CM Review and Info by Sam Sherman [4/2001]
Kiev 90
Kiev Lenses (resolutions..)
Kiev Names - Sources, What they Mean
Kiev Prisms (for Hasselblads..)
Kiev System (list..)
Kiev/USA Upgrades Info
MF SLR Cameras
Moskva-4 Folder
Moskva-5 Folder
Repair Manual Source
Repair Manual Online
Repair Source
Risk Assessment Statistics
Salyut Camera
Salyut-C Upgraded by Sam Sherman
Tanto parts manual archived

Related Links (off-site):
Avoiding Frame Overlap Problems Tip (Thanks to Stacey!) [8/2003]
Bob Reis' Photo Album of Kiev Photos
Kiev Lenses and Post Soviet Photography Pages
Kiev Price List and Sources Guide [04/00]
Kiev related threads at medium format digest
Kiev Report Forum
Kiev 88 Mailing List [10/99]
Kiev 88 Technical Notes
Kiev 60/88 Lens Specifications/Resolution.. Courtesy of Kevin Kalsbeek [03/00]
Kiev Photo Black and White Gallery
Kiev Photo Color Gallery [3/2001, updated 6/2001]
Kiev-Aholic's Pages (Kevin Ing - FAQ, MF, Lenses, Shopping..) RECOMMENDED! [5/2001]

Vendor Related Links:
Kiev Camera
Kiev related manuals online index (Hartblei site) [8/2000]
Kiev Taiwan (Tip Thanks to Paulus Susilo Tjahjadi)
Kiev/USA USA official importer and service center
Russian Camera
Russian Plaza (see address..)
Wiese Photo

As the long listing of links above and at our camera models pages dealing with Kiev cameras shows, these cameras are very popular, in part because of the low cost of cameras, lenses, and accessories. My own experience with Kiev cameras and low cost lenses has been quite positive. But I felt I was probably just lucky to get a good camera? Now I think that you can improve your odds of getting a good camera once you understand your options, and why these cameras are so different as an owning experience.

So I asked on some of the Kiev newsgroups. Turns out lots of folks have had minimal problems with their new Kiev cameras. Folks who used various USA importers who carefully checked these cameras before use also reported fewer problems. Other dealers suggest problem rates of 5 to 20% for some of the more recent Ukrainian cameras, such as the panoramic Horizon 202s.

Others claimed that camera year of manufacture (first 2 digits of serial number) was critical to determining camera quality and minimizing problems, like buying the best wines. But these owners could not seem to agree on whether the older cameras were better, thanks to more hand labor and usage or repairs, or if the newer cameras were better due to improved production efforts. Folks seem to agree that the older "zebra" colored pentacon 6 lenses were not quite as refined on average as the later lenses, at least most of them seem to. ;-0)

Still, another set of responses cited various minor glitches, often easily fixed, which were part of the "Kiev experience". Particularly if you were buying recylced domestic cameras, you paid a very low price for camera and lens hardware (e.g., $50-100 on up). But you should probably expect more problems, perhaps the need to return a back or lens or body until you ended up with a fully functional kit. At the extreme, some folks became expert at lubricating their own camera mechanism, or became good friends with local repairers who worked on these cameras.

My suspicion now is that many of the broken Kiev-88 cameras got that way because they were misused or abused when first used by persons who had not read the camera manual. The manual specifically warns that you will likely break the camera if you change certain controls (e.g., shutter speed) in the wrong sequence. Not you might break the camera, but you will break it (unless you get really lucky).

Okay, now what do you think happens to those cameras that were abused as demo cameras or broken by folks who "never bother to read the manuals"? Do you think they send their broken camera off to get repaired? Maybe some do, but others just sell them off, right? So the broken camera gets passed around, and around, and around. If you got a broken Hasselblad in a trade, it might be worth fixing even at $100-200+ for labor and parts. But if you get a broken Kiev-88, repairs can easily cost as much as another body. So the problem cameras get passed around, until they end up in the hands of someone who will fix the camera, or throw it out! ;-)

Soviet consumer products were not built in the Western tradition. Oftentimes, the cameras were not tested before shipping. Many cameras may have been shipped without being fully lubricated or adjusted. In part, some observers suggest this was due to low priority of consumer goods, and the difficulty of getting stocks of the proper lubricants to do this work. It was up to the store and the consumer to complete any adjustments and lubrication needed.

So new-in-box (NIB) cameras may not be ready to shoot cameras, at least until somebody checks and lubricates them. Again, this has been reported for some NIB cameras, but won't apply to all cameras. Oddly, a modestly used camera may already be adjusted and lubricated and worn in, making it a better buy than a "dry" or unlubricated camera new in the box. Just as operating a machine without lubrication can be expected to cause problems, the same is true of cameras.

Another problem area involves Kiev lenses. There have been a series of camera models, with slightly different lens mounts. Sometimes, it only takes a slight adjustment to the length of a lens stopdown lever to make everything okay. At other times, it can be a major effort to get clearance on camera controls with some older lens variants.

The ability to use a huge variety of older lenses is one of the benefits of these cameras. But the line has had many different camera models, made in different factories and even in different countries (e.g., Salyut, Kiev88) and with new versions (Hartblei...).

Similar issues affect the Pentacon 6 mount lenses used on the Kiev 60, which is also used in the Exakta 66 camera variants and some Kiev88 body variants. My point here is that not every lens that is a K88 or P6 lens will immediately and perfectly fit every model of camera. Most will work fine without problems, but a few (mostly older) lenses may require some adjustments.

Some of the older cameras did not have the best flocking or blackening of the camera innards to reduce the chance for flare. Again, this is easily fixed thanks to an inexpensive ($5 up) kit of flocking material, or black paint.

The biggest problems with the Kiev cameras, once adjusted and after reading the manual, seems to be the backs. The solution is pretty simple too. Get some of the new backs (US$ 65-99)! These backs are much improved, hold the film much flatter, and are highly recommended.

So the good news here is that the odds of getting a good camera are a lot better than many casual commentators would probably believe (e.g., 80-90%+). If you buy from a source (Kiev/USA, kievcamera..) which warranties their cameras, and checks them before shipping (including lubricating them if neeed), then you might expect fewer problems.

Conversely, if you buy a camera that has had a good bit of use, it has probably had its gears worn in (hopefully, not worn out) and otherwise fixed so as to work pretty well. You may be taking more risk with a new in the box camera that has been sitting around unused for years, even decades, which still needs finishing out. On the other hand, you might be in the worst shape if you buy a camera without a return warranty from another user (or abuser?). Or as in my experience, you may get a camera in which all the bugs have been worked out, but at a big discount due to the bad reputation of these cameras.

Is it worth it? That is for you to judge, depending on your budget, needs, and options. If you intend to do professional work, you should have gear backups anyway, but especially so with a used or budget Kiev camera body (IMHO). As an amateur, you have more leeway in what you will tradeoff in time and effort against having more equipment.

Sundry Kiev owners have pointed out that for US$1,000-1,500+, they have a camera body, metering prism, spare backs, accessories like tubes or bellows, and a kit of four or more lenses! Wow! That kind of equipment would cost ten times that price in some other equipment lines. But others (such as Sam Sherman, see postings below and links above) have pointed out that there are other kits such as Bronica S2A/ECTL which also offer some great buys. In addition, while older than many current production Kiev cameras by decades, this competing equipment was pro quality (often with Japanese quality control) and features first rate optics for low dollars.

Which should you buy? Again, it depends on you and your needs and budget. But I think it would be worth the cost to buy a Kiev kit (Kiev 60 or 88) just to be able to use the outstanding 30mm fisheye lens. This fisheye lens is one of the great bargains in medium format, even if you have to buy a $150 camera body to use it!....

 

Editor's Note:

The Salyut camera listed above is another Soviet Hasselblad copy and is the 
predecessor to the Kiev 88 medium format 6x6 camera.



[Ed. note: thanks to Sam Sherman for sharing these observations and tips!]
From: "S. Sherman" flexaret@sprynet.com
To: kovacsc@stargal.net
Subject: Kiev 88 backs/problems
Date: Sat, Mar 24, 2001

I just read your excellent article on fixing light leaks in Kiev 88 backs.

Some years back I was quite involved with Kiev 88 cameras and gave it up due
to the technical problems.

I had heard that some of the earlier models (called Salyut-C) were better made and so just got one.
The camera is well made and functions well. The backs are the problem.

It came with 2 of the older backs - both with problems - not light leaks.

One back was old but almost mint as it was unused. It could not be used as when film was loaded the
geared post that connects to the wind in the back shell is in a position too far down vertically to lock into the
body shell wind. When you remove the takeup spool the geared post moved upward and is able to lock into the
body shell. I could not see fixing this and returned it to the seller for another back. This had insert and shell with
matching serial numbers.


The second back had insert and shell with serial numbers which don't match. The same problem with the geared post
not properly fitting into the body shell but this one was too far up when the film was loaded. To correct for this
I unscrewed the post on the left which fits into the hole on the left of the takeup spool. I experimented with various
washers and added two thin ones and then screwed the post back in. That slightly pushed the takeup spool to the
right (but not enough to crinkle the film on winding - as thicker washers did). By moving this spool to the right
slightly it pushed the position of the geared post slightly down, so that it fits perfectly into the geared wind of the
body shell. The camera now works well and all photos taken have been excellent. The camera winds smoothly with
film as well as without film.

It seems to me that this was always a problem with the old backs and the loaded inserts not fitting easily into the
body shell. This made it hard to latch the inserts into the back's body shell and made winding tougher.

So... a Kiev 88 type camera which winds the shutter well with the back off -winds roughly with the film and insert in
the back - putting strain on the camera's winding gears and causing breakdowns.

Have you an experience with this problem?

Would like your thoughts on this.

Best,

Sam Sherman

From cghol455@aol.com
Fri Nov 14 1997
From: cghol455@aol.com (CGhol455)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Subject: Re: HELP! Medium format?
Date: 14 Nov 1997

HELP! Medium format?

This is really a long winded reply to you but the camera system works. I've had mine since 91 also w/ no complaints.

Shutterbug Jan 96

Kiev Cameras, Lenses and Accessories by Bob Shell (excerpts only by me)

Tested some newer accessories for the Kiev 88 MF camera. ''My Kiev 88, bought in 1991, is still clicking along flawlessly, although I admit I do not use it heavily.'' There is now a nice 16 exposure back producing 645 images on these cameras. Only problem with this is that it is horizontal in orientation and w/ either waist level/45' prism finders it is a nuisance to take a vertical photo. But it does work and you can do it if you get the knack of viewing at a strange angle.

(Cghol455@aol.com, Cliff Gholson, ''A few weeks after I recieved my Kiev 88 kit from Continent Wide Enterprises (Greg ?), I saw advertisement in Shutterbug from a camera store in NYC a 90' prism finder for the Kiev 88. Doesn't have metering, but hey!! I've got one. I cannot tell who made it but on the top (which has flashmount) reads something like '' A'HOP''. CGhol 455@aol.com)

Tested chimney magnifier which comes w/ plate ground glass which can be attached to the back of the camera for very critical direct focusing. Put plate on bottom of chimney finder and you have a MF slide viewer. Put on your light box and you have an exceptional loupe for viewing negatives. Can also adjust the eyepiece for your eyesight as well.

A set of extension tubes are available also.

Last Kiev accessory tested is Polaroid back which works like any other Polaroid back for proofing and works well. ''It is the only Polaroid back I have ever seen which comes with two ''test prints'' made on Polaroid film to show that there are no light leaks. That's the kind of quality which will move Kiev cameras out of the bush leagues and into the mainstream of medium format cameras.''

The Kiev 88 accessories used for this article were loaned by Continent Wide Enterprises Inc.

PHOTO NOTES: MIR-26 LENS-
Mir-26V is a high quality Soviet made lens for Kiev-88. F=45 mm, 1:3.5 (aperture settings from 3.5 to 22), coated. Focusing from .5 m, field of coverage 83 deg. The lens comes complete with two filters (yellow-green and UV), front and rear caps, a rigid carrying case and instruction manual (in Russian). This Mir-26 is in mint/mint- condition, clean glass.

(posted for info only)
From: "Gary Alderson" gary.alderson@sympatico.ca
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format,rec.photo.marketplace
Subject: FS:Kiev 65mm Lens for KV88
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 

For Sale

Kiev Mir 38B  65 mm f3.5 lens.
Fits Kiev 88 only.  ( Old Hassy 1000f as well )
Mint (as NEW)

$135.00 USD (shipping included to USA/CDN destination)
Duty to USA extra (check UPS for details)

Gary
Toronto,Ontario,Canada  

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: Scott Jaqua jaqua@centerlinewheels.com
[1] Re: Kiev 88 problems
Date: Sat Apr 11 1998

Paul and Woody,

I find your experiences with the Kiev 88 hard to believe. Both my father and I own this camera and are very pleased. We have both noted a minor problem in frame spacing, but I have had the same problem in older 35 mm underwater camera before . The work around, if you are using paper backed film, is to open the back port and adjust the film position until the frame number is in view for the first two or three frames. After that, there is enough film on the take up spool to prevent frame overlap. As I do not do action shots, I don't see this a major problem. Other then this minor problem, my father and I love this camera. For the record, my dad got his via Kiev U.S.A., while I got mine direct from Russa via my wifes friend in St. Petersburg.

Scott Jaqua

From: graphic@delphi.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 88 problems
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 98

I have a KIEV 60 whose frames usually "kiss"....the new Fuji spools seem to have corrected the problm on a roll by roll basis. Give them a try with the "88" and let us know if this works.....

...in my case, there is no special procedures to use, except the "new-type" fuji rolls (on NHGII-800 and possibly other emulsions by now).

Look thru the slit for the leader and you'll see an inverted "T" molded in.

Graphic@delphi.com

From: graphic@delphi.com
[1] Re: Pentax 67 neg frame overlap
Date: Sat Apr 25 1998

chet provoda cprovoda@fas.harvard.edu writes:

>advance the film with a slow, steady stroke, and also try to make sure
>the film is nice and taught when loading.  Just for future reference,

Kiev (Kneb) MF cameras are notorious for this problem.

The best solution with my Kneb 60 is to use th new style (NHGII-800 and possibly othr emulsions) spools as your take-up spools.

This has even worked for me with Kodak film that I haven't even had tim to punch the Fuji-style "grabber" hole (use a standard hole punch on non-fuji products) into the film's paper backing.

The spool features an inverted "T" molded inside the film leadr slot.

Wayne Catalano 504-271-1507 (voice & fax)

Graphic@delphi.com

From: Ryszard Stasinski rs@tiur.hin.no
Subject: Response to Kiew lens quality opinions ?
Date: 1998-04-29

I really doubt that Kiev lenses have no multicoating. I have several Carl Zeiss Jena lens for MF and 35 formats, and some (post-)Soviet for 35 mm. I am using them through converters on Mamiya M645, and Canon EOS 10. Except for one or two _all_ of them are multicoated, some being up to 20 years old. I have been considering the purchase of 250/5.6 for Kiev 60 - it has an abbreviation 'MC' in its name, what do you think, what does it mean?

My experience with flare in East-European lenses is quite good. For example, Biometar 120/2.8 MC for Pentacon 6 (and Kiev 60) seems to be not worse from this point of view than Mamiya 645 80/2.8 N, but Sonnar 180/2.8 MC is not so good. Coating of post-Soviet 20/3.5 for 35mm cameras is quite good, too. BTW Biometar was CZJ name for Planar (5-element), CZJ had no rights to this name.

Kiev fish-eye has a very good reputation. The name for Kiev standard lens is Volna. I have a 35mm format Volna-9 50/2.8 for macro. This is my sharpest lens at around f=8!

General opinion is that unless you have no luck Kiev lens represent very high value for money, the price of a converter included.

Hope this helps.

Ryszard

From: Dean Tomasula dtomasula@rocketmail.com
Subject: Response To Mel brown: Kiev TTL for Hasselblad
Date: 1998-05-17

Mel -

Regarding you question about the Kiev TTl prism being out of adjustment, make sure the battery is the correct one. If the votage is off I could affect the meter. You can use three Maxell LR-44 button batteries (or their equivalent Duracell or Eveready). If you want to have it checked, i'd suggest sending it to Kiev USA for evaluation. They are at 248 Mill Street, Greenwich, Conn. 203-531-0900

From: Bart gba-opus@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Response to Can anyone tell me anything about the Exakta 66 cameras and lenses?
Date: 1998-06-07

Latest issue (June, I believe) of Popular Photography has anextensive article on the Exakta 66 and Soviet/German cousins.

From: cure@wms.com (cure)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev USA vs. Continent Wide
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998

a.calciu-dumitr@csu-e.csuohio.edu wrote:

> find some other place to buy, an online auction or whatever. the price from
> the two outfits you mention are grossly overpriced for no other reason than
> profit. their cameras work just as well(bad) as the ones coming straight
> from ukraine. i bought several kievs over time from various russian traders
> and was very happy, at half the price of kiev usa.
>
> andre
>      

Maybe the reason they worked "(bad)" as you put it is that it wasn't purchased through Kiev/USA. They take apart and rebuild, then completley test the outfit *before* sending to the end user. As I'm sure you know, there is next to *no* quality control done at the Arsenal factory in Kiev.

Regards,

--
Michael Rubinsky
Sewell, NJ

From: Don Feinberg donf@intercall.net
Subject: Response to Hasselblad magazine light trap relacement
Date: 1998-06-08

I have found that the light trap problems can be handled by any competent Hassy mechanic for cheap. As was said, the materials are less than about US$10.

BTW, the light trap in the Kiev backs is identical; the Hassy material will solve the light leaks there, also (i.e., the Hassy backs and the Kiev backs seem bug-for-bug compatible...

I was able to fix one myself once using some fibrous nylon material. It was pretty fussy to do, but not all that difficult.

From: Michael Kaiser kais@1st.net
Subject: Response to Can anyone tell me anything about the Exakta 66 cameras and lenses?
Date: 1998-06-09

I've got a Model II Exacta 66, and find it is built like a tank except for the film wind lever. It doesn't always keep an accurate count of exposures. The Model III has mirror lock up and I miss it on my Model II. This camera comes with a Schneider 80mm that is sharp. I also use three Kiev lenses, a 250, a 150mm and a 45mm. They are not well constructed, but give great B & W images. Color is a little unsaturated for my taste. I end up using a Mamiya Universal in 6 x 7 much more than the Exacta. Would I buy another? Probably not, and I had the same problems you have had with the Hasselblad.

From: Ed Lau elau632855@aol.com
Subject: Response to What battery for Kiev 88 Prism
Date: 1998-06-13

Your Kiev 88 Meter prism should take TWO " Varta brand batteries ". Varta V76PX. This brand of battery is made a little wider and longer and a tiny bit more powerful, than normal Eveready A76 batteries.

I have the newer kiev meter prism, with two lights instead of three. The battery chamber is just the right diamater for the above Varta batteries. If your battery chamber is too wide and too long, what you can do, is take a 35mm plastic film container and cut it to make a sleeve around the actual batteries. As for length of the battery chamber, use a little ball of alumumin foil, about the size of a pea, to take up the distance.

Hope this helps you.

Ed

From: Ulrik Neupert Neupert@int.fhg.de
Subject: Response to What battery for Kiev 88 Prism
Date: 1998-06-15

My Kiev prism takes four EPX 625 G cells, these have 1.5 Volts, EPX 625 cells with 1.35 Volts (more common) do not work.

[Ed. note: I include all these battery info postings as there are some obvious problems - of interest to Hasselblad users of Kiev prisms too]

From: Don Feinberg donf@intercall.net
Subject: Response to What battery for Kiev 88 Prism
Date: 1998-06-15

I have both of the Kiev TTL viewfinder types. The batteries are NOT the same!

For the older type -- the viewfinder which has the "on-off switch" and three LEDs in the viewfinder instead of two, I have found that the CR-2 lithium (Radio Shack #23-267) works just fine.

The diameter is perfect. The length is just a little short. I took a spring from an "AA"-type batter holder and worked it over so there were no sharp edges. This works fine from the (-) end of the battery to connect to the removable cover.

No problems since...

From: Tsun Tam ttam@cybernex.net
Subject: Response to What battery for Kiev 88 Prism
Date: 1998-06-15

I have the tri-LED version as well and I find that the same battery that is used with the Blad 2000 series (i.e., PX-28 and its derivatives in Silver, Alkaline or Lithium) works fine. The diameter is smaller, but the screw-on cap will keep the battery firmly in place and IT WILL NOT RATTLE!

Now if someone can answer a question for me. I need to recalibrate my prism and need to know what the three (3) adjustable resistors (potentiometers) do. Two are 5K OHMS and on is 10K OHMS. I find my meter to be inaccurate and also the original resistors are not easily adjustable. I replaced them with miniature 'sealed' American-made units that are very easy to adjust but need to know the range of brightness each resistor covers. The possibly also exist that one of these resistors is used to control linearity too.

Will appreciate ANY and ALL responses.

Tsun

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: Arved@my-dejanews.com
[1] Re: kiev 6 c / 60 camera any good ??
Date: Wed Jun 24 1998

  robbie57@aol.com (Robbie57) wrote:
>
> I've seen a few,and own one.It's a basic easy to use manual camera.The backs
> don't change.No multiple exposure.120 film only,no 220.The metered prism is
> ttl,but not coupled .The one I have was made in 1994.I have had no problem with
> it.BUT........I would not subject it to the uses and abuses of a pro.I have
> heard horror stories about the Kiev 60,but I like mine.You can find reasonably
> priced good lenses on the used market too.
> 

Have you? I've seen a lot of horror stories about the 88, but the 60 seems to be pretty robust. Perhaps we're talking about different cameras? The 6c, I beleive, is an earlier camera. It had some problems with the film advance mechanism where it measured the film that was transported. This was deleted in the later 60, which just winds film. With a 60, you end up with uneven frame spacing because the wind just winds a certain number of turns in the take up spool, and the distance changes between the beginning of the roll, and the end because of the amount of film on the spool.

In short, I've heard of problems with the 6c and the 88, but the 60 is pretty good, if you can accept uneven frame spacing.

I just checked the Kiev web site, and man, did I get sticker shock! These cameras sure have gone up in price in the two years since I was considering them. I think the prices have nearly doubled! The Kiev 60 just went from "I think I might try one some day" to "No way."

- Arved

From: glewis4457@aol.com (GLewis4457)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: kiev 6 c / 60 camera any good ??
Date: 25 Jun 1998

I have a 6C (actually an "S" in Russian) with a Vega-12b 90mm lens. Nice lens! Very sharp with little flare. I really like the camera, except it could double as a boat anchor. Mine can be set for either 12 or 24 exposures using the black knob just to the right of the viewfinder. I have had no problem with the film advance. The biggest hastle I have is the front mounted shutter release.

I have wasted more film inadvertantly releasing the shutter..it is quite sensative. I do try to not advance the film until I am ready to compose and shoot again but I still sometimes trip the shutter, and as you know you must advance the shutter to return the mirror. I usually use my Weston hand meter as the TTL meter is funky at best. On the whole, I find it quite a useable camera. I did buy one of the old Zeiss Ikon 6x6 folders to carry around because this puppy is too much for casual shooting...for me anyway.

Jerry in Houston

Jerry Lewis
League City, TX., USA

From: bobshell@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.35mm,rec.photo.equipment.misc
Subject: Re: You are being fooled...
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998

Ed and I were talking about Russian lenses.

Kiev lenses are Ukrainian, not Russian.

Flare problems with older Kiev MF bodies are well known. I use my Kiev lenses on my Mamiya 645 Pro with an adapter and have NO flare problems. Same lenses on my old Kiev 88, mucho flare. Same lenses on late Kiev 88 with internal flocking, much less flare. The lenses are not at fault.

Bob

wcmarti@ibm.net wrote:

>
> ed romney wrote:
> >
> >    Oh yes..here is  more Shutterbug disinformation exposed:  A recent
> > article warned of high flare in Russian lenses.
>
> I believe there is no particular flare problem with Russian lenses, at
> least the ones I use; The flare problem is caused by reflections from
> internal body parts in a lot of cases. I had to line the inside of my
> Kiev 88 with black cloth, and that mostly eliminated the flare problem I
> had. Oddly enough, taking a picture directly toward the sun didn't
> produce as much flare as that produced from off-axis bright objects.
> Maybe you can suggest a simple way to fix the problem -- my way is kind
> of a kludge, and Kiev-USA's way is quite expensive. The scary part for
> me was that I'm afraid to muck around with any part that looks like it's 
> supposed to move. Consequently, I think there are still some surfaces
> that reflect under rare conditions -- maybe once every 3 or 4 rolls I'll
> get a couple of negatives with a thin dark straight line in them, that
> print like jet airplane contrails? Strange behavior, but I hope I'll
> track it down sooner or later. Il legitium non carborundum.
>
>                                        Bill Martin
>

From: Alex kalimex@dedal.cz
Subject: Response to Hassy Bellows on Kiev 88
Date: 1998-07-07

Would not just purchasing the Kiev extension tubes be easier and cheaper? They sell used for $79.00 and new for no more that $170.00 (Both size combined).

We have sell new sets for $35 (20+40mm set for Kiev-60 or 19+48mm set for Kiev-88).

From: Roman Rohleder rohleder@t-online.de
Subject: Response to Kiev 4.5/55mm & 3.5/65mm shift lenses
Date: 1998-07-07

yesterday my 4,5/55 Arsat Shift was delivered. (Serial Number 9800001)

My first impression : it's an nice toy.

Until now, I haven't had a chance of using at "work". I did some test shots, and it performed quite well. I'll stay in contact with MFD until I get the first results.

But now i can confirm the existence of the lens!

MFD:
From: Robert Monaghan rmonagha@post.smu.edu
Subject: Response to Hassy Bellows on Kiev 88
Date: 1998-07-03

Greetings ;-) - You would seem to have two obvious options.

The easiest is to get a machinist to make a simple adapter to go from the Kiev lens mount to the desired bellows mount - hasselblad 1000f here.

Lacking a machinist, you could cheat, as I do, by mating a Kiev rear lens cap to a body cap (for bellows or body) with epoxy and drill out the center, producing a simple adapter at low cost. See my page on homebrew medium format lenses for more details at http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/bronhb.html.

The bad news is that using a bellows and/or adapter will mount the lens beyond infinity focusing distance - so you can't focus at infinity. Both the Kiev-88 and Hasselblad 1000f/1600f have about the same lens registration distance (circa 82mm as I recall).

Another approach I have seen hassy owners use is to get a local machinist to re-thread the Kiev lenses to exactly match the Hasselblad 1000f/1600f thread mount. This retains infinity focus etc., but you lose use of these modified lenses on your old Kiev mount cameras.

I can provide a reference to someone who will remount Kiev88 lenses into hasselblad mounts, not only the older 1000f and 1600f but the more recent 500c/m series mounts etc via my site at: http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/mf/hassy.html top article/posting. As an example, he is offering Hasselblad 500c/m mount Kiev88 fisheye 30mm f3.5 180deg. lenses in Hasselblad mount for $900US etc.

Also, some recent reviews have pointed out that the Kiev lenses, which are often maligned for lens flare, are usually not the culprit, rather, it is the lack of light absorbing flocking in the bodies etc. For more info on this, see last post on http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/mf/kiev88.html

In short, the Kiev lenses are interesting, low cost, med fmt optics..

From: Ed Lau ELAU632855@AOL.COM
Subject: Response to Hassy Bellows on Kiev 88
Date: 1998-07-03

Would not just purchasing the Kiev extension tubes be easier and cheaper? They sell used for $79.00 and new for no more that $170.00 ( Both size combined ).

Ed

[Ed. note: I am adding a Kiev 60 related post here for future re-use, and as it may interest visitors looking for general lower cost Kiev camera info]

From: charlesw99@aol.com (CharlesW99)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: kiev 6 c / 60 camera any good ??
Date: 26 Jun 1998

The Kiev 6 C is an early version of the Kiev 60. It features a LEFT hand shutter release. One recurring story is that it was designed this way as a concession to Cosmonauts who, with their heavy gloves, had difficulty using the right handed wind and right handed release (doesn't make much sense to me, but evidently the Kiev 6C was indeed used in the Russian space missions).

The back is not interchangable, but the 6C WILL take 220 film (which the present version does not). Since there is no rewind provision and the wind advances the film as well as cocking the shutter, you cannot make double exposures.

Recently, Keppler in Popular Photography (June?) evaluated the current Kiev 60 80/2.8 lenses which were a bit soft wide open and only sharp at about f8. The 90/2.8 that I have is very sharp, as good if not better than the Rolleiflex 3.5 Planar that I have.

The only problem withe the 6C is the age, I think these were discontinued around 1980. Mine has a new shutter so should last another 20 years or so....

Charlie

rec.photo.equipment.35mm
From: bobshell@my-dejanews.com
Re: You are being fooled...
Date: Fri Jun 26 1998

Well, Jim, I'd rather talk photography, too. This other bullshit is depressing and silly.

You are right that sweeping generalizations should be avoided in photography, as in most of life.

I understand that Pop Photography recently tested some of the Kiev lenses for the Kiev MF cameras and said they weren't very good. Am I going to throw out my Kiev cameras and lenses because the grand high gods of photography say the lenses aren't very good? Hardly!!!

First of all, my Kiev lenses take sharp and contrasty images. I'm happy with the image quality. Also, I have seen tests of Kiev lenses done by one of the major Japanese camera companies, and to quote their test technician, the lenses were "frighteningly good". Translation: if these guys ever got their act together on QC and marketing, they would be really serious competition!

Do I automatically assume that Pop Photo is full of crap? No, because I know these guys and know they make every effort to be objective.

So I have to conclude that the samples they got came from the bottom of the curve, while mine and the ones tested in Japan came from the top. Ukrainian lenses, just like Russian ones, suffer from highly variable quality and lack of quality control.

The trick with this stuff is to buy with the right to return. When I wanted a 30 mm fisheye I tried three. Two were good, one was spectacular.

Bob

From: mr645@aol.com (Mr 645)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: kiev lenses on hasselblad
Date: 19 Jul 1998

I actually own a Kiev 60, I bought it so I could geta 6x6 fisheye lens cheap. Considering the total investment of $490 for a Kiev 60 body, Prism with totally inaccurate meter, 80mm lens, 30mm fish-eye and a few filter/case it's not bad. As long as you stay away from wider f-stops he shots are sharp, on par with Hassy or Mamiya lenses. I recent test in one of the mags showed that at f8 or f11 the Kiev 80mm lens was virtually as sharp as the T* Zeiss.

One problem with the Russian optics is a lack of flare control. Fortunately the 30mm is not nearly as bad as the 80mm which flares badly under difficult conditions.

I would say that the Kiev 60 is one of the best values in MF photography.

Jon
http://www.interpoint.net/~mr645

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: "Mitch Kief" mitchk@msn.com
[1] Re: kiev lenses on hasselblad
Date: Mon Jul 20 1998

Was fooling around with my Kiev60 last night and finally figured out how to calibrate the meter:

This involved a grey card and another "trusted" calibrated light meter. There are three rings: an inner for ASA, middle for F stop and outer for speed. The outer ring matches up the LEDs. Thus, I rotated the outer ring till both LEDs lit up. I took a light reading with the trusted meter, then on the Kiev, I rotated the middle ring till the speed and F stop matched the setting based on the reading from the trusted meter. All I ask for now is consistency from the Kiev 60 meter. But you know, I think I'll still keep a hand meter when I lug the Kiev 60 around.The Kiev 60 also has an easy to use set screw by the lens holder opening that can adjust the diaphragm opening on the lens.

The 80mm Volna, Velna, whatever, that came with the camera is sharp enough based on an informal comparison using 8X10 enlargements against the same scenes taken by my Leica with a 50mm DR Summicron (I know, apples vs. oranges etc, but sorry, I don't have a Hassy, or Pentax 6x7, it's either a 35mm camera or a Kodak Brownie for a comparison shot). Best sharpness at f8 - f11 and the lens can have very good contrast (using the provided lens shade and thoughtful shooting, watch out for the sun). Took shots with Leica and Kiev hand held and braced on top of a wall (no tripod, hey I can only carry so much junk). Only shot TriX, so I don't know about chromes.

I was at a dock doing the test, and a few Russian merchant sailors were amazed and amused that I was using something they recognized from home. It seems they like taking back Japanese zoom P&S; cameras as gifts for the loved ones.

Bought the Kiev 60 kit (case, prism, filters) in like new condition for about $225 (the price of a Japanese zoom P&S;) a couple years ago at a photo swap. The seller had, as he put it, "moved up" to a Pentax 6x7. My pet peeves about the Kiev60: The poor fit of the simulated leather on the body; the strange meter (I hope I've solved that problem); and the negative images that can jam next to each other on a roll. Understand the Kiev60 can take a host of Zeiss Jena and Schneider lens designed for the Pentacon; if I ever buy one I'll let you all know the pictures turned out.

Later!
Mitch

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: ginkgosy@vicnet.net.au (Frank Webb)
[1] Re: kiev lenses on hasselblad
Date: Thu Jul 23 1998

"Mark Ziemann" mziemann@wkpowerlink.com wrote:

>Hi Steve,
>Kiev lenses will not fit or function on Hasselblad 500 series cameras, they
>do not contain shutters because the Kiev bodies have focal place shutters
>instead. I have never tried to see if they will bayonet into place, I
>suspect not...
>Perhaps some of the Hasselblad gurus out there know whether Kiev lenses
>might be used for the ageing 1000 and 1600 series of Hasselblads, but I
>would suspect that it would be cheaper and easier to simply use a Kiev body
>than to try to use up an obsolete collector's item Hasselblad body.
>(I know - I know! There are probably plenty of shooters out there using 1000
>and 1600 sets, but Hasselblad itself considers them obsolete, they even
>laugh when I tell them that I'm still using a 500C body and tell me to get
>with the program and get modern for they consider even the 500C to be
>obsolete!)
>
>--
>Mark Ziemann: voice 250 367 6684 fax 250 367 7099
>Canada: P.O. Box 467, Montrose, B.C. V0G 1P0
>U.S.A.: P.O. Box 707, Northport, WA 99157
>Email:  mziemann@wkpowerlink.com
>Steve wrote
>>Heavysteam wrote:
>>>
>>> <>> i know zeis optics are better, but for experiments it may be nice>>
>>>
>>> Try buying a disposable camera.   It is a lot cheaper and will probably
>take a
>>> better picture.
>>>
>>> Visit my web site for 100's of model railroad items in N, HO and O
>scale....
>>> http://members.aol.com/notcheight
>>
>>Are you saying that you do not know the answer to the question?
>>
>>I, too , would like to know. I don't care if the results are worse than
>>using a Diana. I want to know.
>>
>>Steve
>

You are quite correct Mark about the Kiev, the rather crude course quarter turn screw thread lenses and the fact that the Kiev uses a focal plane shutter rather than leaf shutters built into the lens puts it more into the 1000/1600 category.

I use two Kiev bodies (80 & 88) for shooting during bush walks with the fabulous 30mm lens, 65 & 80mm lenses.

In Australia you can no longer buy Kiev products for love or money and many of the 30mm lens were adapted onto the 500C/M bodies as they could be purchased for $A400 compared to the Hasselblad equivalent which costs over $A4000!

If you can obtain the 30mm then I can thoroughly recommend it, there is supposed to be an 45mm lens but I have never seen them in Aust.

regards ....... Frank Webb

From: ELAU632855@AOL.COM
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: My Kiev 88 Experience
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998

My Kiev 88 experience:

First Id like to thank all the wonderful people on the Medium Format Digest, for all their help and suggestions during the past several months.

I like most people became interested in the Kiev 88 camera system, because I could not afford a Hasselblad camera. When I first started to research the camera system, I was very turned off by all the negative feedback of poor quality control and lack of real customer service. However, like most photo nuts, I kept on looking at web site printout of the camera system and compared every other used & new Japanese / German / Swiss / Chinese camera system. There were two main reason I wanted a 2 + system, first was the fact that a larger negative will always beat a smaller negative when doing super sized enlargements ( regardless of the newer films Kodak & Fuji have out ). Although Ive printed color 16" x 24" enlargements from 35mm Kodak Royal 400 film, with excellent results, there is always something still lacking when you compare photos side by side, were the negatives are from two different formats. My second reason was that the Kiev 88, is a very beautiful looking camera. The only camera that is made to semi modern standards but with a real retro styling look to it, at a low price.

I then started to look at all the advertisements for used and new Kiev 88 cameras. The bottom line was a new outfit that was totally re-work and brought up to U.S. standards would run for $600-$700 (USD) with 1 year dealer warranty. A factory NEW setup from Russia / Kiev would be $500 (USD), with a 3 month dealer warranty. Then there was used equipment, which ran from $250 - $600 (USD) and NO WARRANTY at all. But the thing with a used setup, was that you had a lot of extras.

For Example: New Kiev 88 setup might include: camera, 80 mm lens, strap, box, lens hood, two 120 backs or one 120 back and a Polaroid back, UV and Green filter, instruction (sometimes in Russian or English ) and a waist level finder.

A USED setup would include, all of the above but maybe only one 120 back and a TTL prism finder and a extra lens.

After several months, I found a USED setup advertised on Dejanews.com. I paid $400.00 (USD) for the following, Kiev 88 camera (Made in 1996), with two 120 2 + X 2 + film backs, 80mm lens, UV & Green filter, TTL Prism Finder and a waist level finder, cheap camera strap. The camera was Super clean and smelled also like it just came out of the factory. The previous owner said his wife purchased it in Russia, directly from a Manager at the Kiev Camera Factory. He also said he only shot 6 rolls of film in a studio setting and only 1 back was used / tested. He said his results were very good but they were in NO-WAY even close to a Hasselblad. He said the image quality was although comparable to a Mamiya 645. Well, I gambled and my results were as follows, in door flash and available light shots were excellent, the sharpness and contrast surprised me. There was a problem with frame spacing. And when I did outdoor shots on a sunny day, there was a light leak on the bottom and left side of both film backs. Also there was a problem with a plate within the camera body that connected with the PIN on the rear of the 80mm lens. This plate would press on the pin and stop down the lens during exposure. The plate was out of alignment and sometimes the lens would not stop down to F16. I decided to send the entire outfit to Kiev USA a dealer in the United States. Ive read several good things about this dealer, Kiev USA has factory trained personal and offers a 1 year warranty. However they also are the most expensive Kiev Dealer in the entire world. But they seem to stand behind there work and products. After sending in my outfit, the repair bill came to $275. (USD). The plate within the camera body that I spoke of before was adjusted and both 120 backs were adjusted for space framing and light leaks. The repairs came with a 1 year warranty, which is VERY rare for photographic equipment repairs. After getting my equipment back, I went to Central Park in New York City and shot my favorite subjects ( Trees in front of the New York City / Manhattan Skyline ). One roll came out great, the frames were all evenly spaced and no sight of any light leaks. The other 120 back however, still had a light leak. I send back the 120 back to Kiev / USA and received it back in 4 days. Just yesterday, I went shooting again in Manhattan, tomorrow I will see the results when I pick up my pictures and Ill see if they really fixed the light leak this time.

As for additional accessories for the Kiev 88 camera. Heres the next story. Dont buy anything prior to 1991. The Kiev lens all have serial numbers the first two digits represent the year that they were made. From what Ive seen, the earlier than 1991, the workmanship is very poor. Now you have probably heard that even with new Kiev lens, that they sometimes look used. This is VERY TRUE. Sometimes, you get lucky and the new lens looks just as good as a Brand New Lens made in Japan. That recently happen to me, I purchased a NEW 30mm Kiev fish eye lens from a company called Continent Wide Enterprises. When I saw the box, I thought is was previously flushed down the toilet. It was covered with old dried brown and white glue and cheap string. However, when I opened the box, I found a Beautiful retro style leather and brushed aluminum lens case and a Super Clean Brand New Fish Eye lens that would rival any fish eye lens made in Japan. I quickly took several pictures the following weekend and the shots were just great. The contrast and sharpness are just excellent, NO Lens Flare. By the way, the lens only cost me $299. (USD) and it came with a 3 month dealer warranty. The lens was made in 1992 and is Multicoated. The best lens deal I ever had was when I was at the New York City Camera show. I purchased a Kiev 45mm wide angle lens. It was new and made in 1991. On a scale of 1 through 10, this lens was a 8.5. The lens is also multicoated. I paid only $160 (USD). However there was no warranty. At the time, the guy selling the Russian cameras also had a Kiev 30mm fish eye for $190. But two hours later, he offered it to me for $150. Now not all lens are cheap priced. I just purchased a Kiev 250mm F3.5 from Kiev / USA. I paid $525.00, it was only single coated and the exterior finish was only a 7.5 to a 8. I thought about sending it back, but mechanically and optically it was the best out of all of my Kiev Lens. I said to myself, dont chance it. Anyway, the glass on the lens is just so clear and well polished, that I was shocked. I later found out from a guy in Cleveland Ohio that Kiev / USA disassembles all the lens they purchase and regreases, and reworks every part of the interior. I wish they could do that for the outside too.

So far, I have spent about $2000. (USD) on my Kiev 88 system. About $150. (USD) went to processing film that showed light leaks. After everything, if I had to do it all over again, I think I would only purchase a Kiev 88 body from Kiev / USA company. Its not worth the time or hassle to find a bargain and pay for repairs later. The main saving in a Kiev 88 system is the price of the lens.

Please feel free to E-Mail me about anything Kiev 88.

Ed Lau

E-Mail = ELAU632855@AOL.COM

P.S. I finally did get a decent picture with my Kiev 88 camera.

From: cure@wms.com (cure)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: My Kiev 88 Experience
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998

I recently bought a Kiev 88 kit also. I was looking into 6x6 options for about 6 months or so, and I must say I had a lot of the same feelings and concerns that you describe.

After all the looking and the talking and the reading, I decided to play it the safe, but more expensive way and go directly to Kiev/USA from the start.

I purchased the 88CB kit, along with the TTL finder a few extra backs and 2 additional lenses, the 250mm Jupiter and a used 50mm Zeiss Flecktagon.

So far, the only problems I have discovered was a problem stopping down to f/22 on the 80mm arsat lens, and a 2x teleconverter with a dirt on the inside surfaces of the lens. Both problems were corrected, and shipped back to me within 2 days. As far as image quality is concerned, I've only tested the 80mm and the 50mm flecktagon so far, and they appear to be very sharp. The flecktagon looks like it has some very slight markings on the front lens, but they don't appear to affect image quality and the size of enlargements I tend to make (no larger then 11x14).

At first, I had a hard time shelling out the bigger bucks to buy from Kiev/USA, but I figured in the long run, it would probably be worth it....and I have peace of mind knowing I have a hassle free 1 year warranty on the equiptment.

So far, I'd have to say I'm happy with the camera, although I havn't put it through any real heavy shooting yet.

--
Michael Rubinsky
Sewell, NJ

rubinsky@voicenet.com
http://www.voicenet.com/~rubinsky

From: geostar@SPAM-Xaccesshub.net (Geo)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: My Kiev 88 - Exacta 66
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998

Another option for people considering a relatively cheap 6x6 is the Exacta 66. The new model has a mirror lock up and quiet shutter for under $1000. for the body. It takes Kiev 66 lenses too. A appears to be a much higher quality than the Kiev. I have a Kiev 66 with the light leaks option.

-George Struk
Natural Light Black & White Photography -
http://www.accesshub.net/naturalight

From: charlesw99@aol.com (CharlesW99)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev Lenses ?
Date: 8 Aug 1998

These lenses can best be compared to the Zeiss equivalents. The 2.8/80 is a Planar design.

Popular Photography did a comparison a few issues ago and found the Ukrainian lenses were a bit soft wide open compared to the name brand lenses. It's best to use them at f8 or f11.

Charlie
---------------------

>From: Francisco Ribalta ribaltaf@nym.alias.net
>Date: Fri, Aug 7, 1998 
>
>Please, can someone compare a quality of lenses for
>Kiev88 with any known brand ? I intend to buy second
>hand 135mm "Kaleinar" and second hand 80mm "Arsat B".
>Can it be compared with Bronica lenses, Yashica, Pentax..?
>
>Thank you very much.

From: graphic@delphi.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev Lenses ?
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 98

>>I have been surprised at how sharp the Kiev lenses can be.  I have a 66  with
>>the Arsat 80mm lens and in the middle F-stops it is very sharp.  On par  with
>
>
>I have to agree with Jon.   The Kiev lenses are very sharp.   I own a
>Kiev 88 which is a copy of a Hasselblad.  If I remember correctly, the
>lens was manufactured in the old East Germany.   The shutter is
>accurate and is located in the camera body.  The problems I have
>encountered are flare and occasional improper spacing between frames
>on the film.    The Kiev is an excellent medium format starter camera.

My Kiev 45mm lens is a very nice performer....including color rendition. I have had 2 pro photographers ask if i had used a polarizer (I hadn't) on 2 enlargments that had dramatic, intense "sky-blue" skies. One of the sho was done side-by-side with a Schneider 47mm super=Angulon that was polarized (and it caused th sky to go to a an unpleasant dark blue and showd the uneveness inherent in skies rendered by wide-angle lenses that are polarizd). PRN used on all shots.

Magnified negs showed slightly less contrast than the Schneider and a hair less resolution.

From Medium Format Digest:
From: Chauncey Walden CLWalden@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Response to Kiev TTL metered prism calibration
Date: 1998-09-01

I also got tired of replacing batteries. I velcroed a Radio Shack 4xAA battery box on top of the meter, ran the leads in the enlarged vent hole of the cover, and connected the ends to a dummy battery made from a piece of dowel and some foil. The batteries have been in use for over two years now - and the exposure is right on.

From Medium Format Digest:
From: Scott Sansom ssansom@traveller.com
Subject: Response to Kiev Lens 150mm vs. 120mm
Date: 1998-08-12

The info I have list the Vega 120mm resolution at 50/30 lp/mm Center/Edge. The Kaleinar-3 150mm resolution is 45/18 lp/mm Center/Edge. In addition the light transmission coefficient is 90% for the Vega and 80% for the Kaleinar - leading support to the theory that the Vega is multicoated and the Kaleinar is single coated. f-stops are similar at 2.8-22 for the Vega and 2.8-16 for the Kaleinar. I don't own either lens but just looking at the spec's I think I would go for the Vega, unless you purposely want a softer lens for portraits (and the price was significantly better).

BTW, the Kaleinar weights more than twice as much as the Vega (1 kg vs 0.4 kg) and takes a larger 82mm filter vs the 62mm filter on the Vega.

Scott

From Medium Format Digest:
From: Ed Lau ELAU632855@AOL.COM
Subject: Response to My Kiev 88 Experience
Date: 1998-08-16

My continuing Kiev 88 experience.

Well, as I last left off. I went out and tested my newly repair (2nd time) Kiev 88 back from Kiev/USA. The result was that they did not fix the light leak at all and the frame spacing problem returned. After another $22.00 in flim and processing, I was really made at Kiev/USA. The next day I wrote a real nasty letter to them and included every copy of previous correspondence, pack up my Kiev 88, film back and lens and shipped everything to them. The following day I followed up with a phone call too. I receive the entire camera setup back in 8 days. The 120 back was rebuilt and it seems to work now. However this camera system is such a pain in the neck.

I have to honestly tell you that when ever I pick up my Canon Elan //E camera, its like magic. Every shot is perfect, even when I go to full manual. Sometimes, I ask myself when did I every purchase a Kiev 88. The cost of 120 film and processing is so costly. And everything MUST be printed by a custom lab to get a decent picture. Kodak is terrible these days. They average a 1 in 2 chance of screwing up your negatives or how about taking 3 attemps to print an enlargement with the proper color balance or without dust.

Ed Lau

From Medium Format Digest:
From: sheldonhambrick shambric@us.ibm.com
Subject: Response to Any reviews of Cambron Pro six?
Date: 1998-09-07

This camera IS a Kiev 88. DO a search on that on.

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: cure@notvalid.com (cure)
[1] Re: How do you rate the Kiev 88
Date: Tue Sep 15 1998

I bought a 88CB system about 4 months ago from Kiev/USA and so far I am very pleased. I bought the kit (body, 1 back, 80mm lens, w/l finder, TTL prism finder) plus 2 extra backs, 2X tele, a 250mm lens and a used 50mm Zeiss Jena lens. I have used the camera on several hiking trips and have had great results with it. I shoot mostly black and white landscapes, and never enlarge past 11x14, so take this into account when reading my comments.

I did have a small problem with the 80mm lens stopping down all the way, but a quick shippment back to Kiev/USA and it was fixed, back in my hands within 5 days. You will hear a lot of bad press about this camera system, must of which stems (IMHO) from the lack of quality control at the factory level. In recent years, the quality of these cameras has improved greatly. I would also recommend buying from a company such as Kiev/USA who totally strips the cameras down and rebuilds them up to specs, also providing a one year warranty.

In my opinion, this is a good camera system for amatures looking to explore MF without the cost of a full Hassie system. Not suggesting that the quality is anywhere near as a hassie, so please, no flames ;)

HTH, feel free to email me with any further questions.

From: dont-use@this-address.com (H.Gunnarsson)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: EXAKTA 66
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998

nycfoto@aol.com says...

> It's my understanding that the lenses for the exakta66 are the same as the
> schneiders used by Rollei for the 6000 series cameras.  iI this is true  is it
> possible to get MTF charts for the 150mm f4 tele-xenar and 60mm curtagon? Who
> would have these charts?  Does exakta have a web site?
> thanks

I've got MTF-tests of these lenses published in a Swedish photomagazine. The values of 10, 20 and 40 cycl./mm are put together into a single curve according to the following figures: 10cycl.mm: 57%; 20cycl.mm: 29%; 40cycl.mm: 14%. When the values of the Distagon 60/3,5 are weighted in the same manner it proves that the Distagon is vastly better than the Curtagon/Exakta; this and the fact that the Schneider Tele-Xenar 150/4 for Rollei (the results at 10, 20, 40 cycles/mm are weighted in the same manner) is vastly superior to the same Tele-Xenar for Exakta make me suspect that the Exakta Schneider's and the Rollei Schneider's aren't exactly the same designs although they share the same name; I don't know otherwise how to explain the great discrepancy.

--
Hekan Gunnarsson
Gvteborg/Gothenburg, Sweden

h dot gunnarsson at ebox dot tninet dot se

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: Mon Oct 19 1998
From: wcmarti@ibm.net
[1] Re: Kiev 88 mount - Convertable to new Hasselblad?

I've owned a Kiev 88 for over 7 years, and it still works & looks great. Mine doesn't & hasn't leaked light since I got it; And judging by some of the articles posted in rec.photo.x by Hassleblad owners, the 'Blad is also no stranger to a few quirks and problems ( I don't own an "unjamming" tool, whatever that is, but apparently it's used to make a Hassleblad work when it won't do it of it's own accord). I did have to fix an internal reflection problem in my 88, it was made before the factory started using less reflective material inside. This took me about half an hour of very unskilled labor plus maybe 25 cents worth of material. Haven't had a flare problem since. For 7+ years of flawless performance, my $500 investment doesn't seem half bad to me, even if it honked out now and had absolutely no salvage value. 7 years of fun for $500 .. hell, how many times could you go out to a real nice restaurant for that amount? And if I ever do become a camera body snob, I can just replace the "KIEV 88" logo with one that says "Hassleblad". I doubt most folks would know. Meanwhile, enjoy that $3000 Swedish Kiev, and happy shooting.

Bill Martin

Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998
From: Marc James Small msmall@roanoke.infi.net
To: hasselblad@kelvin.net
Subject: Re: Kiev Prism battery holder

Gabor Csanyi wrote:

>I have a Kiev TTL prism, but the original Russian battery died, and of  course
>it is completely nonstandard.  I was told at a show (by a gentleman with a very strong
>Russian accent :-) that there exists a little plastic device, which holds four
>little lithium cells, and fits into the battery compartment.

No, the original battery is not non-standard: it is a stack of PX-625 mercury cells plastic-wrapped into a column. The meter-prism has "compensated circuitry" (an inbuilt voltage regulator), so it will work on a similar column of PX-76 silver-oxide cells, available at a buck or two each from your village Radio Shack. These are narrower than the old PX-625's: shim them in place with paper or plastic, and take some pictures.

Marc

From Medium Format Digest:
From: Don Feinberg donf@intercall.net
Subject: Response to Kiev 88 Lens VS. other camera lens
Date: 1998-11-23

First of all, the lens mount is "Pentacon", not "Pentagon". The Pentagon is in Washington, DC.

I also have several Kiev 88's with all of the available lenses. If I had it to do again, I would have bought the Kievs with the Pentacon mount (which is available today), just for the accessibility of other lenses. I have no complaints with the Kiev lenses, but I would like the flexibility.

It is not possible to mount Kiev-88 lenses on a Pentacon mount; the depth just isn't there. You would have to get the camera modified -- then what do you do with the Kiev-mount lenses?

I decided to live with the Kiev-mount lenses, as I have seven plus the teleconverter and tubes ...

From Medium Format Digest:
From: Thomas R. Young tryoung@jrec.net
Subject: Response to Kiev 88 Lens VS. other camera lens
Date: 1998-11-25

To all that have contributed to this, just another bit of info- "Photo Arsenal" of Germany offers a lens adaptor ring that allows using standard Kiev 88 lenses on cameras with the Pentacon mount, such as the KIev 60. Their website is www.arsenal-photo.com Hope that this info is usefull. Cost is about $40 plus shipping. BY the way, I have two Kiev 88 bodies with cloth shutters and interior flocking from KIevUSA that work great with a good selection of lenses. Thanks, Tom Young

From Medium Format Digest:
From: Yen-Ting Liu carenda@ficnet.net
Subject: Response to Problem with Kiev 88
Date: 1998-12-14

Common ! You don't waste your time and money to repair your Kiev88 body.

My Solution is:

Pasting a cloth(dark black) about 5*5 cm on the buttom pat behind the reflect mirror.

And from now on, you can enjoying the hi-quality pictures from Kiev88.

From: Ace SR71@USAF.org
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: pentaconsix handbook
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998

Nathan Dayton wrote:

> It only exists in German and has been out of print since the fall of  the DDR.
> That said here may be everything that you want to know.
>
>  It is important to note the most common problems with all of these  cameras.
> Although these problems were supposed to have been corrected in the later
> cameras I would still advise caution. First never, I repeat never,  allow the
> film advance lever to snap back after winding the film. This has been the
> cause of breaking more of these cameras than every other problem combined.
> Also never release the self-timer when the camera is not cocked, again a
> common way to break the camera. The third problem is improper frame  spacing.
> This has two causes one is a broken film advance and the more common is
> improper film loading. The proper way to load the film is to use the film
> advance lever in short advances, without allowing it to return to the lock
> position to advance the arrows on the film to the alignment dot on the
> filmguide. This by the way is the only time that you use more multiple strokes         
> to advance the film. This sets proper tension on the film, turning the  spool
> with your finger does not and will result in frame overlap.
>
> Nathan Dayton

Hey Nathan

Great advice. I just printed out your notes. I would bet that this stuff would apply to the Kiev 60, as well.

Ace

From: "Michael Liczbanski" nospam@nospam.net
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: pentaconsix handbook
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998

>. The proper way to load the film is to use the film
> advance lever in short advances, without allowing it to return to the lock
> position to advance the arrows on the film to the alignment dot on the
> filmguide.

Respectfully, I disagree with the above statement, especially for older Practi Six, Pentacon Six and Pentacon Six TL: Never use the film advance lever to load the film. Attach the end of film smoothly and evenly to the take-up spool, and use your finger to turn the take-up spool and wind the film until the arrows are aligned. Thus the advice would be never to touch the film winding lever when the back is open. Also, after 12 (or 13 on some specimens) frames, release the rewind block (located on the side of the rewind lever) and use even, gently strokes to wind the film. If the above sounds stupid, well, it is stupid, but necessary. These cameras had a very poorly executed film winding mechanism.

Also, instruction books do exist in German, English, Polish, Russian and probably more Eastern-European languages. These IBs were either printed in E. Germany, or translated by the importer of these cameras (such as in UK.) The "usual" US source of IBs in CT may be a good start.

Michael (Former owner of many a Pentacon Six )

From: Nathan Dayton nathandayton@netscape.net
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: pentaconsix handbook
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998

It only exists in German and has been out of print since the fall of the DDR. That said here may be everything that you want to know.

It is important to note the most common problems with all of these cameras. Although these problems were supposed to have been corrected in the later cameras I would still advise caution. First never, I repeat never, allow the film advance lever to snap back after winding the film. This has been the cause of breaking more of these cameras than every other problem combined. Also never release the self-timer when the camera is not cocked, again a common way to break the camera. The third problem is improper frame spacing. This has two causes one is a broken film advance and the more common is improper film loading. The proper way to load the film is to use the film advance lever in short advances, without allowing it to return to the lock position to advance the arrows on the film to the alignment dot on the filmguide. This by the way is the only time that you use more multiple strokes to advance the film. This sets proper tension on the film, turning the spool with your finger does not and will result in frame overlap.

Nathan Dayton

From: Nathan Dayton nathandayton@netscape.net
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: pentaconsix handbook
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998

Well I would never argue that you couldn't load the camera that way. The instructions that I gave are straight out of the manual that was printed in the DDR. I was also told by the repairmeister for Pentacon in Berlin to use this procedure. This was after he had fixed one of my pentacons. He also said never to use the procedure that you suggest. I am a great believer in doing what works, so if the method works use it.

I have 2 Praktisixes and 4 Pentacon Sixes and thet is the method that I use.

Yes there was an instruction manual printed in many languages, but it too is out of print. I can only speak for the English and French versions and say that they are interesting translations of the origonal German.

But if no one agrees with me that's ok if I keep them from letting the wind lever from snapping back.

Nathan Dayton

Michael Liczbanski wrote:

> >. The proper way to load the film is to use the film
> > advance lever in short advances, without allowing it to return to the  lock
> > position to advance the arrows on the film to the alignment dot on the
> > filmguide.
>
> Respectfully, I disagree with the above statement, especially for older 
> Practi Six, Pentacon Six and Pentacon Six TL:  Never use the film advance
> lever to load the film.  Attach the end of film smoothly and evenly to the
> take-up spool, and use your finger to turn the take-up spool and wind the
> film until the arrows are aligned.  Thus the advice would be never to touch
> the film winding lever when the back is open.  Also, after 12 (or 13 on  some
> specimens) frames, release the rewind block (located on the side of the
> rewind lever) and use even, gently strokes to wind the film.
> If the above sounds stupid, well, it is stupid, but necessary.  These
> cameras had a very poorly executed film winding mechanism.
>
> Also, instruction books do exist in German, English, Polish, Russian and
> probably more Eastern-European languages.  These IBs were either  printed in
> E. Germany, or translated by the importer of these cameras (such as in UK.)
> The "usual" US source of IBs in CT may be a good start.
>
> Michael (Former owner of many a Pentacon Six ) 

From: rich@cup.hp.com (Rich Satterlee)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: pentaconsix handbook
Date: 21 Dec 1998

The tread is getting long here (sorry), but I do agree with Nathan. My old and coffee stained english copy of the pentacon 6 manual does state this. I don't have the manual immediately available (due to shifting stuff around for Xmas), but if the original poster can't find one before hand, he can e-mail me and I can xerox sometime in January. Nathan is also VERY correct about the advance of the film as well. The wind advance is not like what you are used to with a standard 35mm. Treat it with care and it will last for many rolls of film. Can't answer for the Kiev 60. BTW, the Hanimex Practica 66 is the eastern version of the camera.

Cheers,

Rich S.

From: "Michael Liczbanski" nospam@nospam.net
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: pentaconsix handbook
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998

Not to argue needlessly, but I had only a very slight film advance problem on my P-Six TL (4 bodies ca. 1972, 1975,1978,1979 vintage) when using the "finger-on-the-spool" film loading method, vs. numerous film advance problems with 2 bodies (ca 1975 and 77 vintage) when using the film winding lever to advance the film to the arrows. Just my 2 cents and a long experience. Your mileage may vary. The official Commie position on the advance issue was a tad misleading in my view ;-)

As an aside, Pentacon Six is a *really* lousy camera comparing even to the most beat up Hassy or Bronica. I had to use it (there wasn't much choice in E. Europe then) but would never consider it again for any work other than driving nails into walls. And I have no idea how Pop Photo come up with such stellar lens test results. At best, I could get half of what they are claiming with Zeiss (Jena) Biometar 80/2.8 and 120/2.8. OTOH the 50mm Flektogon was OK (huge light fall-off though) and the 180/2.8 Sonnar (Jena) was really good at certain f-stops and distances. Again, it is my opinion.

Michael

From: carlos@theriver.com (Carlos Alvarez)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Problems with Kiev 88?
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998

>I have heard about many problems with Kiev 88! Can anybody tell me some
>experiences?

Yes, I have a Kiev 88 and have had wonderful experiences with it. I use it for landscape and portraiture work. I have used it a lot with Fuji Velvia, which is very picky about exposures, and had perfect results.

There are some things to watch for in buying one. Most importantly, make sure it was made recently. The first two digits of the serial number are the year of manufacture. Mine is a 97 and I've heard good things about 95 and 96. This is also true about the backs. As far as the TTL exposure meter, it is hokey and not so accurate; don't depend on it for chrome films. It will do in a pinch for print film, though. Finally, note that it will only X-sync at 1/30, which some people consider a handicap when shooting in bright daylight with fill. This just depends on how much power your fill flash has, and I've had great results using my Speedotron lights outdoors.

As far as the glass, it is truly superb. For one thing, there is the amazing fisheye lens you can get for around $250. The cheap 80mm that comes with the kit is excellent, as is the 2x converter. In a side-by-side comparison at 10x magnification, the people at my pro lab could not tell which shots were through the TC. I picked this up for $70!

You can also see more info on my web site, http://www.wedding-photo.com under the "photo info" button.

--
Carlos A. Alvarez Professional Photography
http://www.wedding-photo.com

From: carlos@nudephoto.net (Carlos Alvarez)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Problems with Kiev 88?
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998

Garry Lee glee@iol.ie wrote:

>I think they're poor.
>If you shoot into the light you will find out why.

This is true with the older Kiev's that don't have flocked interiors. This problem has been resolved in the last few years.

>Also, the lenses are good enough, but e.g. My Mamiya 6 lenses are MUCH
>MUCH sharper, contrastier etc.      

I made a side-by-side comparison of a transparency shot through my Kiev 80 lens, with one shot through a Hassy. Blind test, the subjects were the Hassy owner and two lab techs. None could tell the difference at 10x magnification.

--
Carlos A. Alvarez Professional Photography
http://www.wedding-photo.com

[Ed. note: possible fix for mis-framing problem common in kiev 60, pentacon 6 and Kiev 88?]
rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: graphic@delphi.com
[1] Re: Pentacon six
Date: Mon Mar 15 1999

"Spencer Childs" spencer@mistral.co.uk writes:

>I have heard that the old "overlapping frame" problem can be fixed on the
>Pentacon Six if I learn how to load it properly - can anybody tell me the
>secret?

All that I can do is advise a semi-fix for a similar camera.... the Kiev 60. My Kiev 60 has frame spacing that results in frames that "kiss" but do not overlap when used with Kodak take-uo spools. Simply switching to the newer Fuji spools with the inverted "T" in the film slot for take-up results in real frame "spaces". I suspect that Eastern European films that these cameras were designed for had a thicker film base which makes the designed gear ratio a mismatch for Western film substrates....but I could be wrong. why do the Fuji spools work better? I suspect that tyhe "grab" of the inverted "T" pulls the film more tautly across the film gate so that it does not slip back causing the frame edges to be double exposed. *If this is correct* It implies using Fuji spools will increase film flatness and as a result resolution figures should jump upwards for any given lens. Anyone care to test this theory? I suggested this test to Popular Photography and the "editor" (Keppler ???) was not interested and apparently did not pass it along to Jason Schneider who I would have thought it interesting to be able to "turbo-charge" the non-coated or single-coated lens on ancient MF cameras simply due to the take-up spool. BTW, Fuji offered this technology (pretty low and low-cost) free of charge to Eastman Kodak, et al. Apparently no one was interested in a better mousetrap.

Wayne Catalano 504-271-1507 (voice & fax)
Graphic@delphi.com

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: Nicolussi Paolaz Walter npwalter@tin.it
[1] Kiev report
Date: Thu Mar 18 1999

Where is the "Kiev report" home page ?

I can't find it at

http://members.aol.com/kievrpt

nor

http://users.aol.com/kievrpt/index.htm

Thanks

NPW

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: "Frank Bridges" fabfab@mindspring.com
[1] Re: Kiev report
Date: Thu Mar 18 1999

I suspect he has lost interest in it and taken it off-line

Many of us who ordered from him waited several weeks to get the reports.

From: roma@stalker.gamma.ru (Roman Prokhorov)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev Cameras on E-Bay
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999

wzhang1@my-dejanews.com wrote:

> Frankly, most of the Kiev60 or 88 on ebay are new, fresh out of the  box, only
> few are used.  I have checked KIEV USA before I bought my 80 and 60,  they are
> charging too much, by the same amount of money I can buy a used Mamiya RB67 in
> very nice condition.  If someone tells you how much they actually cost in
> Russia, too cheap you couldn't even believe it.

I can tell how much they cost in Russia :-)

Kiev 60 US$ 70
Kiev 88 US$ 250

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: ELAU632855@AOL.COM
[2] Re: Kiev 88 Buyers Guide
Date: Sat May 08 1999

..

Hi again everyone,

well, I just received my Kiev 88 Meter Prisms back from being repaired. I had sent two meter prisms to a company call "Roskam Optics", in the county of Netherlands. My first meter prism was made in 1997, to compensate for its inaccruate reading. I always had to open 1 Full F-Stop. For example: if the 1997 Kiev Meter Prism, said F 8.0 @ 1/60 of a second, I had to shoot at F 5.6 @ 1/60 to record a normal exposure. The second Kiev Meter Prism was made in 1998. That meter prism if it said F 8.0 @ 1/60 of a second. I had to open two Full F-Stops for a normal exposure. Example: the correct or compensated setting would be F 4.0 @ 1/60 of a second.

What was I using to judge a NORMAL exposure, a Canon Rebel G, Canon Elan //E, Gossen Luna Pro SBC ( hand held meter ), Soligor Spot Meter. Both the Canon camera meters gave the exact same exposure settings at various film speeds. The Gossen hand held meter was under the Canon Meters by 1/3 of a F-Stop all the time at various film settings. The Soligor Spot meter was 1/3 to 1/4 of a stop under the Canon camera meters. And yes I know that all of the previous meters are using different meter reading methods. I fully trust the Canon meter readings, as Canon & Nikon meters are the best in the world. All meter readings were done in the same lighting conditions and off a Kodak Gray Card.

Now for the REPAIRED meter results. The 1997 meter now is within 1/3 to 1 / 2 of a F-Stop under the Canon meter. I now need to OPEN 1/3 to 1 / 2 of a stop more to match my Canon meter reading. The 1998 meter is a different story completely. I now have to CLOSE down 1 Full Stop to match the Canon meter reading.

Let me just say that before Dr. Roskam started the work on the meters, he could not guaranty how accruate he could get the meters to work. He did say he would do his best though. He told me early that Kiev Meters depending on the year that it was made, could be adjusted to some degree.

When I mailed the meters to Roskam Optics, It took 2 = weeks to get to Dr. Hans Roskam. Then it took his company another 7-10 days to do the actual repair. The cost was $25.00 ( USD ) for each meter. Then it took a little less than 2 = weeks to receive the meters back. Shipping each way was U.S. Airmail ( Gobal Priority Service ).

All in all, I dont think it was worth the time or money. I do trust that Dr. Han Roskam did his best. But since sending away the meters, I got so used to using my Gossen Luna Pro SBC hand held meter. Regardless that it is 1/3 under my Canon camera meter readings. I alway tend to bracket exposures because I mainly shoot Fuji Astia film. The 1997 prism meter will be a decent backup, if my Gossen is not around. As for the 1998 prism meter, perhaps it just a good prism finder. After all this, now I know why the Kiev/USA repair guy said, just compensate the inaccruate exposure reading with the film speed dial on top of the Kiev meter prism. Kiev/USA also said its not worth the money to open the meter and attempt to repair it. Panorama camera repair of New York City also said the same exact things.

Well, like I said Im sure Dr. Hans Roskam did his best.

Below is his E-Mail address if anyone is interested.

Roskam Optics Company
E-Mail Address: roskam@rulsfb.leidenuniv.nl

Best of Luck!

Ed

Date: Sat, 22 May 1999
From: Kevin Kalsbeek krkk@earthlink.net
Subject: What happened to the Kiev Report?

In reply to NPW's question: what happened to the Kiev Report? Good question. The last issue appeared in June 1998, then it disappeared without warning-I had a year left on my subscription. No one that I have talked to has any knowledge of what really happened either. Damned shame- KR was a great newsletter.

If your'e interested in collecting (primarily) Russian/ Ukranian cameras, I would strongly recommend The Russian Camera Collectors Club based in the U.K. . As far as I have been able to determine, the RCCC is the only organization left which is dedicated to Russian/ Ukranian cameras. The RCCC's web address is: members.aol.com/rcccuk/rccc.htm. David can be reached at: rcccuk@aol.com .

Regards,

Kevin

krkk@earthlink.net

From: "Edouard de Castro" dece@colorado.edu
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kalimex
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999

graphic@delphi.com wrote in

> "Frank Bridges" fabfab@mindspring.com writes:
>
> >I ordered a lens from them last july.
> >
> >They cashed my check in august.
> >
> >I still have not received the lens. I've sent ten or twelve e-mail
> >messages
> >with only 2 replies - one last year said they were on vacation, and  another
> >in march said they needed two days to check on my order. I give up!!.
>
> Does anyone have a comparable (but reliable) source outside the U.S.???
> Please advise details if possible.

I was luckier than you! I ordered and get from Kalimex a complete Kiev 688 (kiev 88 with Kiev60/pentacon six lens mount, hand crank, mirror lock-up) kit at ~$1000. I also get two lens (the 30mm fisheye + a 45mm wide angle) that was in late 1997, early 1998 (I paid by wire transfer). everything was ok.

then the camera shutter broke (I lent it to someone who probably turn the speed knob in the wrong direction), and I tried to get it fixed by Kalimex (it was under warranty) early July 98, it took hundreds of Email, FAX, phone calls to get it fixed!... I almost gave up, and then, just before Christmas 98, the body came back, everything was fixed!

Since then, I've tried to order another lens, but they never replied to me! (they are angry at me!?)

now I use eBay to find/get lenses!

to summary:

Kalimex used to be ok!?
but now, I don't know! They never reply. Maybe they are out of business? but their web page was updated on 3/18/99 !!??

Its too bad because they used to have very good prices, a huge choice, a good web page... and it used to work!

For your lens, never give up!...

There is an German dealer: (I don't know if they are reliable!?)
http://www.arsenal-photo.com/kiev/ehomekiev.htm

Photo Arsenal
Klaragasse 8
D-90402 Nuremberg, Germany

arsenal@arsenal-photo.com

Tel: +49 911 / 20 30 03
Fax: +49 911 / 20 40 33

There is also Brenner Foto Versand that is supposed to trade Kiev camera http://www.brenner-foto.de/

From: GRAPHIC@delphi.com
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999
Subject: Re: homebrew KO 135mm lens Re: [KOML] Kiev lenses

I have been following the discussion of adapting Kiev lens with some degree of interest, especially the wideangle optics since I own the following:

2 K-O bodies with 58mm's

1 Kiev 60 body with 45mm MIR lens

1 Graflex-XL body with 47mm F8.0 (older design than current F5.6) lens 1st, I'd like to restate the obvious --- rather than convert the shutterless Kiev lens to a KO/RO body, just go and by the very inexpensive Kiev 60/45mm MIR package.

*Why*? Probably the reason why I did it. Not only did I need the wider view of the 45mm, *but* I needed the accuracy of framing provided by an SLR. I already owned the 47mm S.A. lens on the Graflex XL/SW body, but it suffered from the same problem as the KO's---- auxillary finder inaccuracies. When I am backed against a wall filling the frame with people, I cannot just hope that I have everybody on the left side in frame and not leftout, but 2 extra feet of room on the right side because the vfdr shifts around in it's shoe or I placed my eye a little differently than the last time I shot with the viewfinder.

WHY I STILL THINK THE KIEV CONVERSION HAS A REASON TO LIVE:

The same reason that I love the KO design --- film flatness enhanced by a pressure plate smashing the film flatter than wimpy springs ever could. What someone really needs to think about is tossing the KO body out of the equation altogether and going the Graflex-XLSW design route --- mate a shuttered wideangle lens directly to a KO back. Scale focus with a wideangle on MF film is a piece of cake----if you can live with the auxillary finder woes (see my comments on why you should just buy the damn SLR.

HOW THE KIEV 45MM (my sample only) COMPARE TO THE SCHEIDER (old) 47MM (my sample only):

I've shot them side-by-side with the same film, PPF (not the finest grained film in the world), at between f8 and f11 and what I see is that they both have resolution fall-off at the about the same degree when comparing the 6x6cm portions of the Kiev and Graflex negs. The Super-Angulon is a tad more contrasty, but pretty much of a dead heat. *however* I was using the old knob-style Graphic 6x9 roll-holder which alledgedly does not hold film as flat as the newer style Graphic roll holders that have two chrome "rolling pins" to hold film a little flatter (anyone have any real world data on these backs?).

Personally, I feel that in medium format (and especially large format) the biggest variable in resolution is the design and execution of the film backs.

Anyone building vacuum backs for the Kiev or Graflex for field use that run on "AA" batteries.

graphic@delphi.com
Wayne Catalano 504-271-1507 (voice and fax)

From: wzhang1@my-dejanews.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Russian Medium Format Usernet (update)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999

Hi there--

Right now I'm working on creating a Russian Medium Format Usernet, and an email list, anyone interested? My email address is rb67prosd@excite.com

Wei

From: ELAU632855@AOL.COM
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Wanted:Kiev 88 repair manual(English)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999

Russell Hippert riverspiritphoto@uswest.net wrote:

> I'm looking for an English Kiev 88 repair manual.Anybody
> know where I can find one?
> Russ
*******

A English Kiev 88 Repair Manual & Parts list with lots of pictures is available from

Continent-Wide Enterprises LTD
41 Bertal Road
Toronto, Ontario Canada M6M 4M7 416-762-8101 ext. 110 1-800-667-0293
http://users.aol.com/contwide/home.htm

From: John Halliwell john@photopia.demon.co.uk
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Opinions sought: USA Kiev 88 vs. older camera
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999

....
I read some years ago from a UK photo mag, that if the "Kiev" was spelt in English (rather than cyrillic) letters, the camera was for export (and therefore of better quality). I've seen photo's of Kiev cameras with both spellings here in the UK.

--
John

Preston, Lancs, UK.

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 99
From: melhus melhus@fdrc.iit.edu
Subject: [KOML] Kiev lenses

Lyndon Fletcher, Fletch2@ibm.net, wrote:

>I wonder if anyone has considered the inverse to what you were attempting,
>ie to take a modern lens designed for a #0 shutter and mounting it on a
>spare KO shutter assembly? The Kiev lenses are very good, very cheap and
>might be a method of KO owners getting access to a 135mm lens without
>spending big bucks on a KO 135mm.

A good idea, but since the Kiev lenses are for a 6x6, the same tests that Kerry and Chris are doing, to make sure that the Kiev lenses can cover the full 6x7 area that the KO requires.

Also, the knock on the Kiev cameras has always been great optics with cruddy mechanics. Are the lens helicoids subject to this problem?

Checking my copy of McBroom's (96-97) found that the 45mm Mir lens is running about $300 in excellent shape. That would be a great extension to the K-O lens set. There's also a 30mm, but if I remember correctly, that's a fisheye.

However, one other issue cropped up. The Kiev cameras have a focal plane shutter, which implies that the lenses don't have a shutter. This would require mounting them in a Copal #0 or equivalent - the shutter would not be included with the lens, and the price would go up accordingly. (Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.)

Still an interesting thought, though. I've been chafing for something with the angle of coverage that the Mamiya 7 has with its 43mm lens.

This might do it for under $500.

Regards,

Martin F. Melhus | PDGA# | Welcome to day 23xx of
melhus@fdrc.iit.edu | 11296 | "The Truman Show" presidency.

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999
From: GRAPHIC@delphi.com
To: koni-omega@snoopy.cmagic.com
Subject: Re: [KOML] Lens Tests

Hi again Kerry,

At the risk of seeming as senile as I am and repeating something that I might have mentioned as food for thought in your ongoing lens testing project: Fuji new style spools with the trapped "T" in the take-up slot in the 120 size spools.

My suspicion is that these spools may aid on-film resolution for some if not all lens/body combinations in roll-film MF applications. This belief is based on my own experience with my personal Kiev60 MF SLR (please don't laugh too l;oudly). These Kiev 6x6's are notorious for poor spacing problems (different thickness of Soviet block films?) and mine suffers from frames that normally "Kiss" with any take-up spool type except the new Fuji.

With the Fuji, proper though minimal spacing is maintained, even when using kodak film without the Fuji-style hole-punched leader (I do sometimes add my own leader hole if time allows).

My only explanation for this spacing is that the Fuji spools must "grab" the leader paper more firmly and maintain better tension.

Better tension in the film gate should theoretically create the flatter film environment that would result in better resolution as long as the lens/film plane combination was designed properly.

I dropped an e-mail note to the "editors" (Herbert Keppler?) at Pop Photo Magazine suggesting this might be an intereting project for their lab, especially to see how this might improve the performance of older MF's as well as newer Hi-tech (????) MF's.

I got a note back from "the editors" implying that I sounded like a shill for Fuji and they had no interest. BTW, I attended a lighting seminar in New Orleans sponsored by Fuji where the rep mentioned this new spool and said that Fuji had offered this new technology (low tech, low cost) free to other manufacturers if they wanted to use it.

I have never seen anything else written or spoken about this take-up spool. Even Fuji is not openly touting it's advantages.

Well, just food for thought.

Wayne Catalano 504-271-1507 (voice and fax)

graphic@delphi.com

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999
From: wcmarti@ibm.net
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 88 worth the trouble?

Russell R. Stewart wrote:

> I am interested in trying out medium format photography but don't have a
> lot of money, therefore the Kiev 88 is appealing.  I can get a new one for
> about $330, but have read that even brand new 88's have inaccurate
> shutters and other problems.  Is this true?   Any advice would be
> appreciated.  Thanks.
>
> ========================
> Russell Stewart
> rstewart@computerpro.com

I bought mine from some Canadian company ( I'm not sure they're still in business ) around 8 years ago. They CLAIMED their cameras were completely inspected and tested by an independent company in the Netherlands, prior to being sent to the U.S. This may be true, because I've had ZERO problems with mine since I've owned it. It makes beautiful negatives, that blow up nicely to 16x20. I did have to "flare-proof" the innards of the body, which was easy to do and works great. I have only one 120 back, but have found no uneven spacing problem or light leaks. Judging from some of the adverse PR in this NG, my camera may be somewhat unusual; Or maybe the rule is to buy one from an agent ( such as KIEV USA ) who does go through them and bring them up to reasonable standards. I do recall that the Canadian company gave me a 2-year warranty, so apparently they had confidence in the company that did their testing ( maybe that's why they're no longer in business? :>) ).

Anyway, for the same price, if I could buy a camera as good as my KIEV 88 ( and needed another one ) I'd do it in the proverbial heartbeat. By the way, it's one of the dreaded ones made before 1991 -- made in 1989, to be exact. If it disintegrated into dust tomorrow, I feel I would have had some cheap fun from it and got some very good pictures, and got my money's worth.

No, mine isn't for sale, contrary to MGOP's speculation about those of us who own KIEV's. I have no interest in getting rid of it. At one time, I was faced with deciding whether to sell it or my Mamiya C330. The Mamiya went, and I haven't suffered one moment's regret for making that decision.

If you get one, I hope it's as good as mine, you'll enjoy owning it.

Bill Martin

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999
From: Michael Buchstaller buchi@dci.de
To: hasselblad@kelvin.net
Subject: Re: Keiv 88

you wrote:

>Can anyone give me any feedback on the Kiev 88 camera used with their
>30mm fisheye.   Has anyone tried this combination.

On several occasions i have used this setup to do some fisheye images, and have it found to be really good. Once i did a shot in an old cement (sp?) factory, i photographed from the floor against the sky, with the sun in the frame; and there were no problems with lens flare, color changes or anything like this.

Some time ago i was looking for a fisheye lens, and did not find a hasselblad lens for a reasonable price. On several occasions i have used this setup to do some fisheye images, and have it found to be really good. Once i did a shot in an old cement (sp?) factory, i photographed from the floor against the sky, with the sun in the frame; and there were no problems with lens flare, color changes or anything like this.

But one of my local cemera stores offered me the Zodiak-8 lens in like new condition for DM 350 (approx. $200 i think). I asked the owner for any possibilities to change the lens mount to use it on my Hasselblad or at least on my Bronica, but he told me that this would be very, very expensive and instead sold me a Kiev88 kit. On several occasions i have used this setup to do some fisheye images, and have it found to be really good. Once i did a shot in an old cement (sp?) factory, i photographed from the floor against the sky, with the sun in the frame; and there were no problems with lens flare, color changes or anything like this.

> What kind of
>pictures does this thing yeild.

On several occasions i have used this setup to do some fisheye images, and have it found to be really good. Once i did a shot in an old cement (sp?) factory, i photographed from the floor against the sky, with the sun in the frame; and there were no problems with lens flare, color changes or anything like this.

The only two things i do not like with this are:

1. My Kiev-88 does somehow suck mechanically. It works OK, but when i move the wind knob to get the next exposure, the gears make strange sounds, and the entire camera shakes and moves :-(

2. On the focusing screen everything looks a little greenish. I suspect this to be a flaw in the screen or the mirror, because the slides are OK.

>Can I use this as my fisheye option
>for my weddings?   I shoot Hasselblad, how will the fisheye pictures
>compare with the true Hasselblad fisheye lens pictures?

Sorry, i did not have a Hasselblad lens to do a direct comparison between those two. But if you think about how often (or should i say: how seldom) a fisheye is really needed, i believe it is OK to use the Kiev setup. The lens is great, only the camera sucks, at least IMO.

I donYt know if you want to use the fisheye for your work on a regular basis, or if you are just (like me) *wanting* to have one so you can use it, if a situation arises that screams for a fisheye.

I would say, for light use the Kiev is OK, but for heavy, regular shootings a Lens for your primara workhorse camera (which you know you can rely on) would be definitely the better solution.

-Michael Buchstaller

Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999
From: Marc James Small msmall@roanoke.infi.net
To: hasselblad@kelvin.net
Subject: Re: 1000F/1600F Lens to Kiev 88?

The answer is, "yes-and-no". The Kiev 88's have an aperture stop-down mechanism while the 1000F does not. The lenses SHOULD fit manually but the production tolerances at the Arsenal Plant can be, well, a bit creative, so a given lens may not mount smoothly on a given camera body.

Marc

msmall@roanoke.infi.net

Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999
From: BobR38@aol.com
Subject: Re: 1000F/1600F Lince to Kiev 88?

Matias,

I have a Haselblad 1000F camera and I use some lenses and attachments from the Kiev 88 with no problem. There is no need for modification. The mounts are exactly the same.

Bob R.

From the Hasselblad List:
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999
From: nordin nordin@bc1.com
Subject: Re: 1000F/1600F Lens to Kiev 88?

Just to add my bit to the discussion on the orign of the Kiev 88. I agree with my esteemed and knowledgeable friend Marc Small (below) on the origns of the Kiev 88 - it began as a copy of the Hasselblad 1600 and evolved to a much better camera over time. There have been several totally undocumented stories with other explanations, however none of them have any credibility. I've spent time trying to trace down documentation on these alternative theories - there is none.

Hasselblad did not sell their tooling to the Russians. They provided service and produced spare parts for the 1600 /1000F till 1983. As for the idea that the Kiev 88 design was arrived at independently from the original Fritz Volk Handkammer HK 12.5/7x9 - this is quite absurd. There is really nothing in common mechanically between the HK and either the 1600F or the Kiev 88.

Rick Nordin

>In the '50's, the Arsenal Plant in the Ukraine and the KMZ plant in Moscow
>began to produce a variety of designs which would eventually consolidate
>into the Kiev 88.  There are some significant improvements in the Soviet
>design over the Swedish original but this lad, in any event, believes it to
>have been an outright theft, though perhaps a damnum absque iniuria, as
>Hasselblad had by then abandoned the design.
>                                               

From: ruscam645@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 88 vs. Bronica ETRsi
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999

....

Hi Sergio,

I have been shooting Kiev 88s ( I have 3) since 1995, and have been very happy with them. I shoot mine in 645, as I do not get along with 6x6 for landscapes.

In my opinion, MOST of the problems are user induced. A local dealer tells me that he has problems with no more than 4 cameras out of 100, and some of those are due to less than honest customers.

The only problems that I have had was that a couple of magazines( I have 8) had light trap leaks which are easily repaired, or can be exchanged..

MOST of the bad press is from people who do not know Kievs, or in many cases, people who are insecure because an inexpensive camera can do as well as their expensive name brand equipment.

The stories about flare are hogwash- people apparently do not know what to do with lens shades, and there is nothing wrong optically with the lenses- they all perform well- I have 10 of them.

The Kiev 88 system represents a fantastic bargain for the beginner, especially if you have a little patience to work out any bugs that might crop up.

Also, there is nothing wrong with 99% of the magazines- the frame spacing problems occur because the mags aren't being loaded correctly, which is easily done.

I hope this is of some help to you.

Regards,

Kevin

From: ruscam645@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 88 vs. Bronica ETRsi
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999

....

Hi,

There are several good places to order Kiev equipment in Europe. I would NOT recommend Kiev/USA, as they are the world's MOST expensive Kiev dealer, although they do have the best warranty, I question whether the warranty is worth the extra $150-$200 you will pay there. I have had very satisfactory dealings with Photo Arsenal in Germany. Kalimex in the Czech Republic also has very good prices, and a wonderful selection of equipment. The down side is that they don't really seem to have anything in stock, so if you ,order from them, you will WAIT, but after I got my "full race" VRN/Hartblei Kiev 88 body, the wait was worth it.

If you're in a hurry, try Photo Arsenal- they are very reliable, and their prices are decent, and your shipping costs should be much lower than mine(California).

By the way, there are 2 prisms available for the '88- the metered(TTL), and the nonmetered. I have both, but as I use a spotmeter, I normally use the nonmetered prism.

At any rate, I hope that this is some help.

Kevin

From: ruscam645@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Cambron? Kiev?
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999

....

Hi, I seriously doubt that your Kiev 60 had any flare problems- it was more likely overexposure caused by a loose or misadjusted stopdown arm in the camera not allowing the lens to stop down. This happened to me-looked like bad flare, but it wasn't. I fixed in about 20 minutes. Kiev 60's are NOT known for flare problems.

The Kiev 88's are widely believed to be flare prone, but I do not find them to be so- my 2 old unflocked bodies make just as good negatives as my new VRN/Hartblei body which IS flocked. the people complaining about flare might have had light leaks in the darkslide light traps, or might have been caused by misused, or nonexistant lens shades. I have been shootings '88s since 1995 with no problems with the bodies, and about 3 light leaks in the mags, which I had repaired. 90+% of the problems with Kievs are user generated, usually due to improper film loading, etc,etc. the only Kiev I've had mechanical problems with is my '60, one problem I fixed as mentioned, and one which will require a repairman, but I will get it fixed so I can use my great CZ-J lenses! The Kiev 60, by the way has the best lensmount of the two cameras, in my opinion.

Regards,

Kevin

From Hasselblad Mailing List:
Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999
From: Peter Klosky Peter.Klosky@trw.com
Subject: Re: Kiev Viewfinder Battery

Bill,

Did you get the late model with the auto-off meter with the red pushbutton? The old one has an on-off switch that can drain the batteries. Plus the late model has better optics, in my testing. Also superior to the Kiev NC-2 copy. I think it is easy to read the date code from the first two digits of the S/N.

The part about the 3 each 76 batteries that the other fellow said sounds 100% correct.

Peter

From Hasselblad Mailing List:
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999
From: "Dr. Ulrik Neupert" neupert@int.fhg.de
Subject: Re: Kiev Viewfinder Battery

Depending on the age of the prism you might need different kinds of batteries. The one I sold recently was from the early 90s and used 4x PX625G cells (1.5 V, not the PX625 type with 1.35 V!). As I understand the batteries now used for this prism are different.

Ulrik

Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999
From: Mattias Andersson eskes@hem.passagen.se
To: hasselblad@kelvin.net
Subject: Re: Kiev Viewfinder Battery

Hi!

Realuy if I am not wrong is the battery depending on the calibration. Th old type is using 5.5V (I belev, I will check when I am at hom this evning) and is supose th take on batery. The sizes is inposebel to get in Sweden so it is posebel to use several small insted to get the coret volt. Luckly did I get from an hospetal 5 new batterys that is the corect type. The was used in a hearing aid that is not used anymore.

//MAttias

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
[1] Re: Meyer Optik 300mm/f4.5 Telemegor
Date: Sun Jan 02 2000

from: flexaret2@aol.com (Sam Sherman) 1-2-2000

This lens is probably black barrel and coated from the 60s or 70s and intended for Pentacon 6 or Praktisix. The lens was later upgraded in another mount under another name as Meyer was further integrated into the East German Optics group of companies. I think later called Meyer Orestagon. Definitely not as good as the Carl Zeiss Jena similar 300MM lens.

I would think that at f8 to f11 that you will get sharp pictures. The internal elements may need cleaning - have a pro do it if needed.

From: "Robert L. Wilson" wilson@math.wisc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 80 metal or cloth shutters
Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000

This is really Kiev 88, not 80... Were there really any 80s made with cloth shutters?

I have two 88s, one with metal, one with cloth. The metal one is MUCH louder, and it is coming from the resonance of the curtains and not from somewhere in the gearing. That may not make a difference to you, depending on how/where you will use the camera. While I knew the metal shutter sounded much louder, here are the results of a quick experiment. I used an old A-weighted sound level meter, not really meant for measuring short sound impulses as distinct from continuous sounds, but it is what I have. I took each body and fired it several times at 1/125 second, with no lens or finder or film back that might damp the sound and with the microphone of the sound meter 3 inches from the curtains at the back of the camera. The metal curtain body consistently produced 84 decibels. That is a pretty big difference...

Bob Wilson

From: ruscam645@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 80 metal or cloth shutters
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000

....

Hi Bob,

you are right it is quite a difference, but the Entire Kiev 80 series- that is: Salyut through the Kiev 88 was designed with the metal shutter curtains. The MC are reliable on the two examples I have, even though the '89 is in need of a CLA.( My Zenith 80 needs a CLA!)

I have a VRN with cloth curtains, that finally got so bad, I had to return it to Kalimex, and thence to VRN- I am having the cloth curtains replaced with the black metal ones, which I am sure will be reliable, as are my others. I might add this was after about 3 months light use.

If the shutter mechanism were redesigned for the cloth curtains, they would probably be reliable, but putting cloth curtains into a shutter that was designed for metal curtains is most unwise. My recommendation is that until Arsenal redesigns the shutter mechanism to accomodate cloth curtains, avoid them like the plague- overall, the metal curtains are much better. Further, I have seen No evidence in my photos that the bronze colored curtains cause flare!!!

As for the Shutterbug article, my view is that it is a poorly researched article, and is at the very least misleading.

Best wishes,

Kevin K

From Rollei Mailing List:
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999
From: Bob Shell bob@bobshell.com
Subject: [Rollei] Hartblei 1006 camera!

Today I have sitting before me a Hartblei 1006 medium format SLR. Never heard of it? Well it is the product of a man in the Czech republic. You see he buys those Kiev 88 cameras out of the Ukraine and, as he puts it, "hot rods" them. He completely takes them apart, polishes all of the moving parts, replaces some parts with ones he makes, and then puts the whole thing back together with all new lubricants. He does the same to the lenses, checking centering and so on.

The finished product is a wonder to behold. He has stripped off all the chrome plating (or maybe they sell to him without it) and painted everything gloss black. He replaces all leather with brand new. The one he sent us has very garish and fakey looking "snakeskin" on it!!

But once you get past the creepy leather the camera is remarkably smooth in operation. Much smoother than the two Kiev 88s I already own, which came from Kiev USA. They are sold by Kalimex in Prague. You can see a photo of one of these snakeskin clad beauties in next month's Shutterbug.

I gotta have one for my collection. It is just TOO weird.

Bob

From Rollei Mailing List:
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999
From: Mamiya645@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Rollei] Hartblei 1006 camera!

....

It looks like he replaces the checkered grip on the lens barrel with snakeskin, too.

Is the one he sent you? http://www.dedal.cz/OPTICS/o_imgs/camera/Hartblei-1008.gif

I'd rather have one of these two models:

http://www.dedal.cz/OPTICS/o_imgs/camera/Hartblei-456.gif

http://www.dedal.cz/images/Kiev-688_MLU3_Black_NT+Mir-26+SideGrip.gif

This guy is really talented. He should be converting the lens mounts on Kiev lenses to Mamiya 645 mounts.

R. J. Bender (A Nikon, Mamiya and Rollei user. )
http://homepages.infoseek.com/~rbender/RS.htm

From Kiev Mailing List:
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999
From: "Robert Reis" scaramouche2001@prodigy.net
Subject: Re: Photos with Kievs?

http://www.delphi.com/kievreport/messages/?msg=88.12&ctx;=1

[ed. note: try http://forums.delphiforums.com/kievreport/start/ ]

Portfolio section on this page has many photos Kiev 88 and 60.

Bob Reis

From: "Matt O" nojunkspam@nojunkspam
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Questions about Kiev88
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999

> 1. Kiev 88 I know (is made in Ukraina) but and what is Hartblei (who makes
> the last one?)

Hartblei is a refined Kiev88. It's been more carefully QC'd and includes some improvements over the base Kiev88. It sounds like you have been visiting various vendors' Web sites to pick up these model names.

> 2. What is Kiev 88CM? and do we compare it with the Hartblei?

The one I am aware of is a very new model from Kiev's Arsenal factory, not yet readily available. I haven't seen any comparison information on that model. I've heard from one vendor that it will be more readily available next year. It might be like that Hartblei in that it might accept Hasselblad magazines. Information has been scant on the CM, but *rumour* has it that the Kiev Arsenal factory might have started...ahem...some notion of quality control, something that's been lacking sorely.

> 3. There are how many available mounts? 2 or 3 I know B mount and C  mount
> (Pentakon6). What is P mount?

I'm aware of two basic mounts:

- Kiev88 basic mount - mostly only Russian and Ukrainian optics are available for this mount.

- Pentacon breech lock mount - Based on the former East German Pentacon, a bigger variety of lenses are more readily available in this mount, including Carl Zeiss Jena, Schneider, Meyer, and the mix of Russian and Ukrainian lenses.

> 4. What's the advantage to pay extra money to get the Pentakon6 mount?

Availability of German optics, especially those that were used on the Pentacon 6 and the Exakta 66.

> 5. Can we find a larger range of lenses in P6 mount? (example: can we find
> the 30mm 3.5 fish eye in P6. Is is more expensive?)

Yes and no. I've seen the *same* price for the 30mm in either mount. $169 plus shipping.

> 6. Can we find better lenses in P6 mount? (optically)

Schneider and Zeiss Jena better enough for you?

> 7. Are the P6 mount lenses easy to find? Who makes them the Russians or the
> Germans?

Yes, but many of the German P6 lenses may be second-hand; Schneider still makes P6 mount lenses for the Exakta 66.

See answers above. And visit some Kiev dealers to see brand and model names of Russian and Ukrainian lenses (Jupiter, Volna, Zodiak, Arsat, Mir, Telear, etc.)

> 8. What is better (more reliable) the steel shutter or the cloth shutter?

Some people alleged that under very cold conditions that the cloth shutter may fail, but cloth is quieter.

> 9. When we purchase a kit what do we have to check about the TTL prism? Do
> exist different types (qualities) of TTL prisms?

Suggest you pay a visit to the the Russian/Ukrainian Camera Enthusiasts Forum at:

http://www0.delphi.com/kievreport/

[ed. note: try http://forums.delphiforums.com/kievreport/start/]

There's lots of help and more specific info there. You can also get links to various Kiev vendors.

Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000
From: ginkgosy@vicnet.net.au (Frank Webb)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 80 metal or cloth shutters

radiojon@means.net wrote:

>A few weeks ago a poster made the sweeping statement that cloth shutters
>should be avoided in Kiev 80s.
>
>I disputed this claim, stating that metal blade in focal planes have ALWAYS
>been a problem, and that the "Russian" engineered version is no better, most
>likely worse due to poor quality control.
>
>Now I add this from the January 2000 Shutterbug article on Kievs.
>
>This quote is found on page 82 with a picture:
>
>"The bronze metal shutter on the left is a poor choice of materials.  The
>more expensive cloth shutter on the Kiev 88CB is smoother, more accurate and
>much quieter."
>
>Attention newbies: ALWAYS question sweeping statements from "experts" in any
>newsgoup, including  me.
>
>
>John

For what it is worth I have been using a Kiev 80 since 1992 and a Kiev 88 since 1993, both are equipped with the corrugated stainless steel original shutters and neither have ever given any trouble.

Shutter Bug magazine back in 1993 evaluated the 88 and found the shutter speed accuracy to be extremely good at all settings.

The main problem I believe with the Kiev 80 series occurs with the backs:

1. Light leaks even from new occur at the dark slide entrance as well as around the top of the back due to poor quality control.

2. Film not winding evenly leading to bunching up of the film towards one end of the take-up spool or even worse, breaking.

3. The frame counter sticking and not correctly registering the number of exposed frames.

4. Uneven spacing between frames with overlap of some frames.

I believe that the newly re-designed backs from Kiev overcome to a large extent the above problems, but the above problems can be overcome, albeit with the right tools and lots of patience!

Cheers, Frank Webb

Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000
From: shambric@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Russian???

I just put about two inches of wide duct tape at teh begining of the leader, and I get nice fat frame spacing.

Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000
From: Gary Sanford sanford1@sprynet.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: How is Kiev 88?

They were written up in this months Shutterbug and there is a Kiev and Russian camera forum on www.delphi.com The Shutterbug article was balanced and very well done. In any case, if you want to get your feet wet in Kievs, my recommendation is to get a Kiev60 to start on Ebay or at www.russianplaza.com or www.kievcamera.com They have less problems out of the box and will be the subject of another article in next months Shutterbug. I have one and am having the time of my life with it.

Date: 12 Jan 2000
From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 80 metal or cloth shutters

It can happen I burned a hole in my shutter curtain!

While shooting stills in the California desert with a 180MM f2.8 Zeiss Sonnar tele on a Pentacon 6 camera, somehow a big hole was burned by the sun's rays into one rubberized fabric shutter curtain.

That is one of the reasons Lens Caps come with lenses and should be used on all old and new rangefinder cameras, plus SLRs without instant return mirror. It is true -- be careful!

Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000
From: "Thom Tapp" ttapp@bellsouth.net
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Help need opinion on Kiev 88

First let me say - I LOVE MINE!

Some observations:

Positives:

1. It's a GREAT entry level camera! Those who can't afford a more expensive MF camera can get into it with a Kiev 88.

2. My Kiev 88 has produced some GREAT images! My lens produces razor sharp images with good contrast and color saturation.

3. The lenses are cheap enough that you can have several for the price of ONE of the name brand's.

4. My metered prism finder works well, and has been right on target. But a friend calibrated it for me.

5. I like the interchangeable backs. They are inexpensive, and come in 6X6 AND 6X4.5 sizes.

6. For the price, you can afford to have an extra body, for backup!

Negatives:

1. Quality control is VERY bad on these cameras. (So be sure to get a warranty, and buy from a reputable vendor!)

2. Common problems are: Light leaks in the camera backs, flair (in un-flocked bodies,) un-calibrated meters in prism meters, occasional shutter problems, and general problems with "loose fits," etc. 3. My camera had a problem with 1/1000 sec. shutter speed. It made a light

vertical streak across the left hand side of the negative. At all other speeds it worked fine. (I can live with it...)

4. You have to be VERY careful loading the film. (It must go under the little "lip" on the 6X6 back, or it will crinkle the backing on the film.)

5. You have to be VERY careful not to change shutter speed before you cock the shutter! Damage (to the shutter) WILL result if you do this!

If you are careful with this camera, it will serve you well. If you are harsh with a camera, don't get a Kiev!

Like I said, I LOVE mine! I've got some of the best shots I've ever done with this camera, and I hope it lasts forever! Would I rather have a Hasselblad? You bet I would! Would I buy another Kiev 88? I sure would! In a heartbeat!

Hope this helps!

Thom Tapp

Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000
From: Grafton Corruption noone@nowhere.org
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Help need opinion on Kiev 88

You'll get a wide range of opinions here, so I'll throw mine in too. I bought one of these a little over a year ago, from the company claiming to upgrade the cameras to some level of reliability.

The first 10-12 rolls of film that came out of it were really very nice. I thought I had found the motherlode. I was preparing to invest in another body, some film backs, lenses etc. for my newfound friend. At about 15 rolls, this thing turned into a nightmare. Shutter speeds all over the map, shutter failures, hanging film wind lever etc.

My camera is the cloth shutter model, which is supposed to be better? ( I don't know). What I do know is that a year later, and lots of emails and phone calls to Kiev USA, I have a broken camera that cost me about $800 and I find that there really isn't a repair available, just send in my body and buy another for $300-400 bucks. I've dropped this thing into a drawer and plunked down money on a real medium format camera. I'm sure ther are lots of other experiences out there, it usually is. I'd say that sums up the Kiev.

By the way, lens quality and image sharpness were superb. I was very pleased with the few rolls I got out of this thing. If I could put Kiev lenses on a Blad body it would be heaven. The camera is just mechanically a piece of junk.

My 2 cents.......

....

Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000
From: ruscam645@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Help need opinion on Kiev 88

......

I have 3 '88s and generally like them very much,but I am glad to find out that I'm not the only one that has had less than satisfactory results with the cloth shutters.

CCs are a nice idea, even tho the the non-auto return mirror leaves you open to burning pinholes in the curtains. The way I look at it, these cameras were designed for metal shutters, and that's what they should have. A Ukrainian acquaintance of mine, that has contacts inside VRN, the firm that did the extensive modifications on my camera, says that the factory really doesn't recommend the CCs. the problem is, apparently, that there is no money to do the engineering required to do the redesign necessary to make the CCs reliable. A shame. My VRN was returned to Kalimex, and is now back in the land of it's birth being retrofitted with black metal curtains- for, they tell me no charge.

I am a bit suprised that the much vaunted K/USA is not able to repair the CCs as they charge a premium price and they say the CCs are superior to the metal curtains.

Although I no longer recommend the '88 as a camera for beginners- it's just too unforgiving- they are really marvellous values due to their excellent optics, and truly superb results can be had. For anyone interested, I have written several documents to help Kiev users which can be had directly from me by e-mail: Kiev 88 does and don'ts, K88 magazine loading, and Kiev 60 film loading. I can be contacted at krkk@earthlink.net

Best wishes,
Kevin

From Kiev 88 Mailing List:
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000
From: Bill Brady wmbrady@olg.com
Subject: Re: factory status?

Robert Monaghan Wrote:

>What is the status of the various factories making kiev/ukrainian.. cameras?
>The latest shutterbug hints at some problems, as have some posts I have seen,
>of folks grabbing up lenses etc. due to some problems with production?
>
>here is another related post also raising suspicions...
>
>can anyone elucidate what is going on - is it temporary or permanent or??

I have been monitoring the situation for some time. The following should be considered one notch above rumor value:

The factory is shut down. I have read and been told that this is temporary while the over production is sold off. (this is why there are so many bargains out there.)

Apparently, some people (German camera makers) are resisting a re-start and are trying to buy the factory, others are urging the opposite.

I say: get 'em while they are hot.

Wm. "Bill" Brady, Harwood MD - Who knows that wood warms you twice, once when you burn it, once when you cut it.

From Kiev Mailing List:
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000
From: Kevin Kalsbeek krkk@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: factory status?

Hi Bob,

The Horizon 202 post is puzzling. I was told a few days ago by a local Zenit dealer( Steve Berezin) that the Horizon 205- the MF version of the Horizon- should be available soon. Perhaps they are just selling off the preproduction run?

Best wishes,
Kevin Kalsbeek

Date: Thu, 30 DEC 99
From: graphic@delphi.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Russian???

FLEXARET2 flexaret2@aol.com writes:

>from: flexaret2@aol.com (S. Sherman) 12-29-99
>
>Being aware of the problems of film buckling in the aperture in
>120/220 cameras, I would not trust a lens test photographed on a camera.
>
>Good lens tests must be made in a lab on an optical bench, and then we will
>know if a lens is sharp or not. While results in a camera may not be "crisp" it
>is many times a known 120 problem of film flatness and
>not a problem with a lens.

IMHO, I think it would be great if someone would test a pet theory of mine (*and* of Fuji, as expressed by a Fuji Rep at a lighting seminar that I attended). I have a Kiev 60 that had frames that "kissed" with Kodak take-up spools, but found this problem was solved by using Fuji spools with "trapped 'T'". Fuji's idea is that the film is held tighter and flatter in the film gate by their take-up spools. My experience with the spools seems to bear out the theory. If it is true, lens resolution tests shot with Fuji spools should have higher res numbers than kodak, et al spools.

Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000
From: Pookywinkel pookywinkel@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 88 questions

Hi Mark!

That's a loaded question. The Kievs have been discussed *many* times on this forum. Here are some golden rules on Kiev purchase considerations:

- NEVER--repeat never--buy a used one!

- Don't expect to compare it to a Hasselblad as we know them today.

- It is based on the miserably failed and unreliable Hasselblad 1000 and 1600 models from the 1950's.

- It does not accept modern Hasselblad lenses.

- It flash-syncs at 1/30th of a second MAX!

- Both the Kiev and the Hassy jam up but for different reasons.

- Expect the Kiev to be tempermental.

- Don't expect the quality, reliability, or ruggedness to come close to that of a Hassy or any other name-brand medium format gear.

- It's not a professional grade camera by any stretch, but *a few* "pros" claim to also use (like any other non-professional grade camera).

- It instant return mirror.

- It has a cruddy TTL meter that is very likely to be out of calibration and unreliable in higher and lower lighting conditions. (Some Kiev fans use a hand-held meter.)

Why buy a Kiev 88?

- If you know the vendor (seller) and whether or not the camera has been credibly rebuilt or upgraded and the vendor offers a full money back return or exchange or warranty of a reasonable time frame, then the Kiev offers a basic entry-level intro to medium format photography. It can fun funky and fun, or it can be an excercise in frustration. Some fans love 'em; some photographers would be better off buying a credible second-hand medium format camera by Hassy, Mamiya, Pentax, Yashica, etc.

Before you buy a Kiev, research what others have to say. Here are some good links I encourage you to visit:

http://www0.delphi.com/kievreport/

[ed. note: try http://forums.delphiforums.com/kievreport/start/ ]

http://www.pauck.de/marco/photo/stuff/kiev88/kiev88.html

http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a.tcl?topic=Medium%20Format%20Digest

If there's only ONE thing to remember, this is it: If you buy a Kiev, don't expect a Hasselblad!!

Date: 06 Mar 2000
From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 88 questions

from: flexaret2@aol.com (Sam Sherman) 3-6-2000

A used and working Kiev 88 might be better than a new one as the gears have "worn in". You would be amazed at the results that Russian photographers have gotten with these cameras.

I once bought a broken one had it repaired and it worked on for many years. Currently I prefer the Bronica S2-A.

Shutterbug magazine featured an extensive three part story on these cameras by Jay Abend, they will tell you what you want to know.

-Sam Sherman

[Ed. note: see Kiev 60/88 Lens Specifications Table courtesy of Kevin Kalsbeek]
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000
From: Kevin Kalsbeek krkk@earthlink.net
To: Robert Monaghan rmonagha@post.cis.smu.edu
Subject: Kiev 60 and 88 lens table

Hi Bob,

Please find attached the Kiev 60 and 88 lens table. I'm sorry that it took so long to finish it, but in a way, it's good too, as I was finally able to find data on the old 300mm Tair. The data was from a Ukrainian acquaintance. I am a bit puzzled though- the resolution data is quite low, but my Salyut mount export version performs as well or perhaps just a bit better than my 250 Jupiter-36.

Hope this is useful.

Best wishes.

Kevin

Date: Tue, 28 Dec 99
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: kiev88 in general
From: radiojon@means.net

I have used and written about Russian cameras for the old Kiev Report and even (much earlier) Modern Photography. Given the inherently cheesey construction of these cameras and the utter disregard for quality control, I cannot imaging anyone depending on one as (of all things) a photojournalist. The refurbed stuff may be better, but you still can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear!

The 1/30 shutter sync was troublesome for me when I tried to use one for an outdoor HS Senior portrait. MY lens was OK. Yours could be different.

Buy something better to base you career on and find some other area, such as going to $8 movies or $6 trips to fast food restaurants to make up the loss. Brown bag lunch for 3-6 months if needed. It'll be worth it.

BTW, what lens do you imaging using most in your particular stsle of work? I ask, becasue it seems most photojournalists lean to the wide side. The 80mm lens would be OK, but a 75 on a reliable Rollei might be better and faster handling. Plus a LOT quieter. Bert Stern did a lot of famous work with "just" a Rollei and it's one available lens.

Hope this helps, it's just my opinion.

John

....

From: ruscam645@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: kiev88 in general
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999

....

Hi Joe,

I've been using '88s since 1995, and have been in general very satisfied-- whether it would suit YOU, is something only you can answer, I have no major problem with the 1/30th flash, and have had good results with it, but you might not. In general, I avoid flash- I don't like it. One tip: avoid the cloth shutter curtains like the plague! If you have the Bux to buy from K/USA, go for it- they DO stand behind their warranty, and the lens/camera combination can easily rival Hasselblad for a fraction of the cost-- this should bring THEM out of the wood work!!

Best wishes,

Kevin

Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999
From: ruscam645@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Russian???

Dwight dwigh03@ibm.net wrote:

> I am considering purchase of a Kiev or Lubitel(sp??) medium format
> camera as an entry point into MF.
>
> They both seem to have some bad press.
>
> Has anyone got anything good to say about them?
>
> TIA, Dwight Huffman
> Hi Dwight,

I've been shooting K88s since 1995 with minimal problems- a couple of light leaks in the mags. The only major '88 problems I've had are with a highly modified '88 body with cloth curtains- do yourself a favor and avoid them like the plague!! It's now on it's way back to VRN to have the curtains replaced with the original metal ones.

My Lubitel is ok, but it has a really lousy viewfinder, identical to the Voigtlaender "Brilliant"- very poor, but optically quite good, and shutter is also good.

You might want to consider the Kiev 60-- usually more reliable out of the box, with a much better lens mount than the '88, and better for beginners.

My favorite is the Kiev 88, but I also like the K60.

If you (or anyone else)is interested, e-mail me direct- I can send K88 does and dont's, K88 mag loading instructions, K60 loading instructions, Kiev TTl prism recalibration techniques, Kiev MF lens specs- just ask.

Best wishes.

Kevin
krkk@earthlink.net

From Rollei Mailing List:
Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000
From: Andre Calciu a.calciu@anent.com
Subject: Re: [Rollei] Kalimex Ordering

rich, both bob shell and myself posted about kalimex. when i dealt with them two years ago i received promptly via express mail my cheap purchases and got ripped off on the big one (check cashed, merchandise never delivered and no reply to emails/phone calls and even a visit to prague ended in front of a locked warehouse door in an old high school).

on the other hand, bob had a good experience with them, although the shutterbug write-up on kievs suggests that it was a long, slow process getting stuff from kalimex.

i guess it can be a craps shoot dealing with them, at least until they start accepting credit cards and getting their business ethics up to the level we expect from mail order companies.

why not fly to kiev for a week long vacation and buy there an armful of cameras, keep the ones you like and ebay the others. that should more than pay for your trip, maybe even for the equipment you will keep. my last visit to kiev cost $620 round trip plus another 400 in meals/hotels, plus 2000 in purchases. i turned everything into almost 4000 cash via ebay plus i got to keep a few pieces (most notably a kiev projector for 6x6 slides).

andre

Rich Lahrson wrote:

> Rich Lahrson wrote:
> > Soile Kontio wrote:
> > > $225 for Peleng!? Crazy.
> > > Zenitar costs in Moscow 75-120$ depends on mount.
> >
> > Greetings Stas!
> >
> >      I've been watching these lenses sell on eBay and $225 is about the
> > most they sell for.  I just checked the Kalimex web page and the price
> > is $140, plus it's new.  Maybe some have reservations about dealing
> > overseas.
> >
> >     Bob Schell, didn't you post something about the Kalimex products
> > recently?  What's your take on the best shipping method?  I may buy
> > a 17mm PELENG later this year. (I've reposted from the NikonMF list)
> >
> >                                 Cheers,
> >
> >                                                 Rich Lahrson
> >                                                 tripspud@wenet.netre:

From Rollei Mailing List:
Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000
From: John Coan jcoan@alumni.duke.edu
Subject: Re: [Rollei] Kalimex Ordering

If anyone is interested I can recommend an honest seller of Kiev stuff at cheap prices here in the US. Mike Fourman of Atlanta sold me a Kiev 60 kit for $172, and the Zodiak 30mm fish eye for $180. Each came with the complete set up normally provided (case, filters, etc.) and was new. The camera kit had a crummy English translation of the manual and both items had the original Russian instruction books. He also takes credit cards at no extra fee, and offers a 30 day exchange. He was mentioned in the January article on Kiev cameras in Shutterbug, and sells stuff on Ebay. The URL for his web site is

http://www.kievcamera.com/

I don't have any financial interest in him, etc. etc.

From Kiev88 Mailing List:
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000
From: "Todd Leghorn" musclepuppy@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Question?

>From: fatcatbaby@webtv.net (Beanie Hunter)
>
>Hello everyone,
>
>I am new to this list but have been using onelist for a year or two now!
>
>If any one on the list can give me a heads up on any problems that the
>kiev 88 has before i go and buy one would be greatly appreciated.

You asked about the Kiev 88's value, quality, sharpness, comparable ease-of-use, etc. Wow, that's a loaded question indeed. One doesn't buy a Kiev expecting it to be perfect. It's not built anywhere near to the basic standards and requirements of a brand-new camera. You cannot compare the Kiev to what you expect from a Mamiya or Hasselblad. Some common problems and issues with Kievs include:

- erratic, unreliable shutters, both metal and cloth, that do not provide the marked shutter speed.

- fair to poor fit and finish. Sometimes the meter prism is too tight or too loose. Sometimes lenses don't fit.

- a useless TTL meter that is never calibrated at the factory. When you calibrate it against a benchmark meter at a given target (such as in the sunshine), you can calibrate it yourself to match, but change to a different lighting (such as in the open shade), and you'll get very different results.

- slow flash speed sync at 1/30th of a second

- light leaks in the magazines (How much film and money do you want to spend troubleshooting and testing and troubleshooting and testing for light leaks with brand new equipment?)

- glare and reflections

- internal vibrations when the mirror goes THUMP and the shutter whirls. (Even if your camera is perfectly steady, your camera's internal vibrations are potentially a problem. Some people buy a mirror lock-up version, but are you prepared to accept the cluminess and slowness of mirror lock-up to reduce the camera's own internal vibrations? The REAL problem isn't the lack of mirror lock-up, but it is a work-around for some.

- non-instant return mirror

- lenses with factory dust *inside* them! (some lenses come out spotless, and others look very dusty; aperture blades may need repair or returning to the vendor if the vendor takes them back under a warranty.

- Some vendors offer 15-day, 30-day, 60-day, 90-day warranties. Some vendors are notoriously inconsistent about warranty terms and don't want to talk about it if you question their own inconsistencies!

- Some vendors might offer a one-year warranty that you pay extra for.

- When it's out of warranty, where are you going to get it fixed? Are you prepared to send it to a repairman in New Jersey, however good he may be? With a Hassy or Mamiya, chances are your local repair facility can deal with it, but not so with a Kiev.

And let's not forget that even though the Kiev is intended to be an amateur camera, let's not pretend that any pro with a substantial volume would really want to depend on it. I wouldn't want my wedding to be dependent on a Kiev "pro" photographer!

If you like to tinker and play and enjoy the Kiev given its potential for problems, then you might like it. Many of us like the Kiev because of its character, its funkiness, its design that's over 40 years old (based on the ill-fated Salyuit which was based on the very ill-fated Hasselblad 1000F and 1600F designs of the mid-50's).

Kievs are not for everyone. Some people who want a taste of medium format but do not want to buy better second hand equipment by reputable Japanese, German, or Swedish companies may be very satisfied with the funky, clunky, DEAR Kiev.

I'll take my Kiev where I wouldn't want to take my Japanese or German medium format equipment. I knew of its limitations and potential problems before I bought it, so I have nothing to complain about. I can really appreciate and respect your question. The information I provided is readily available on various Russian/Ukrainian camera forums, including this one dedicated to Kiev 88 as well as a substantial forum on Delphi (http://www0.delphi.com/kievreport/)[ ed. note: see http://forums.delphiforums.com/kievreport/start/]. Both forums are excellent resources!

Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999
From: ruscam645@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Info on Kiev

"Bruce Andrews" cimage@ihs2000.com wrote:

> I was wondering if anyone knew anything about the Kiev 88 MF camera? I am
> just getting into MF and would rather not spend thousands of dollars on
> camera and lenses.  The Kiev sounds like a great choice for the buck.
>
> Any info?
>
> Brian
> xerode@yahoo.com

Hi Brian,

I can't really recommend the Kiev 88 for a beginner, although they are in many respects a wonderful value for the PATIENT amateur. Why patient? Well, they can have flaws right out of the box, AND it's easy for an inexperienced person to REALLY foul them up-- let's face it, they are not as forgiving as a really modern camera.

I have been using '88s since 1995, with great satisfaction, and given a decent one, combined with a decent photographer, the '88 will rival the Hasselblad for results. Have I just committed heresy? Who cares!!

If you are interested in the '88 you(or anyone else!!) might want to e-mail me for for the following MS word docs: K88 does & don'ts, film magazine loading instuctions, Prism recalibration instructions, or Kiev MF lens specs.

Given patience, and a willingness to learn the does and don'ts, you can have a really great MF camera, that will deliver excellent negatives, and isn't that what it's all about??

Best wishes, and Merry Christmas!

Kevin krkk@earthlink.net

PS- avoid the cameras with the cloth shutter curtains- they are trouble!! The only problem I've had with my '88's, aside from the one that is in need of a CLA, is the much modified VRN '88 that has a mirror lock up and cloth curtains, Stay with the original metal curtains and you will most likely be happy- the cloth curtains can't stand the stress that the '88 put's on them- I think they stretch, and throw off the speed-- mine is now on the way back to the Ukraine via the Czech Republic to have the shutter curtains replaced with the VRN black metal ones.

Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999
From: Woody Kamena woody@parsippany.sgi.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 88

Mike -

The Kiev 88 and the Kiev 60 will give you excellent pictures, if used correctly. One thing that you need to remember is that, while the camera may be recently produced, it's a fairly old, completely mechanical design. It's not the kind of thing that will do the thinking for you. It also *will* allow you to make mistakes, unlike many more modern designs. Many problems attributed to Kiev's are related to improper use as much as quality problems. There have been quality problems in the past, but there are much less now. Get something that has a warranty, shoot a few carefully loaded and handled rolls and have them developed. Most real problems will be quickly apparent.

There are several vendors that offer some kind of warranty -

www.kievusa.com

www.kievcamera.com

www.russianplaza.com

The latter two also sell on ebay and you may have seen them.

The Kiev cameras are a bit different then the modern hassy's et al in that they feature a focal plane shutter, not a lens (or leaf) shutter. This gives you a flash sync of 1/30 instead of some with a sync of 1/500. It that daughter of yours moves fast, you might just get a blur (or need faster film). The lack of a shutter in the Kiev's lens means they are less expensive to produce (along with other reasons) so you can expect the Kiev line of lenses to be fairly reasonable if you wish to aquire more.

Couple of other points to remember: Film loading is very important. Many problems of "uneven film spacing" can be attributed to improper film loading. It's all mechanical, so if the camera doesn't get what it expects (the way the film is loaded), the spacing will get out of sync with the distance the film is being moved for each exposure, hence a problem that grows (or shrinks) with each exposure made. Also the dark slide goes in the gasket, not in front of it. Another popular way some uneducated beginners encourage light leaks.

The 88 is a more complicated camera than the 60. It's got interchangeable backs, which can be a source of problems. I've got 2 88s and 7 backs. I don't have a problem, but make a point of consistent loading, use and very careful (in the dark) film handling. Some times the gasket seals dry out on the backs and have to be replaced - it's about a $20-30 project and uses the same materials as the Hassys.

The 60 is another idea. It's a much simpler camera. It doesn't have interchangeable backs, but with only 12 exposures on a roll, I'm never heart broken to just blow through a roll if I want to change the film. It too, produces excellent images, but is not quite as flexible as the 88 (with regard to backs and finders.) If you get the option, stick with the newer style "NT" back. They are easier to load then the older style.

Both the 60 and the 88 have a great selection of lenses. The 60 is ahead, I think with all the old Pentacon and Zeiss lenses and many Kiev vendors are pushing a modified 88 with a 60 lens mount. Maybe there are more 60 lenses available than 88, but think about what you'll really need. The cost of the 88 lenses in the used market seems to be dropping a bit, so that's something to think about as well.

Also, look carefully at what you read in newsgroups and postings. "Real" information should be first hand, from Kiev owners and users. Look out for people who "saw one once" or had "a buddy who had one" but don't actually own one or haven't used it enough to know how it should be used. Look for comments from real users, as they are the ones that will really communicate the value of these cameras in true usage. There are a lot of people who are insecure in their own camera purchases when it comes to the thought of somebody creating top quality images with a cheap Kiev. Instead of working on their own skills, the bash what the see as a challenge. Why else would somebody be in such a hurry to offer an opinion of something they have little or now first hand knowledge of?

All in all, I'd have to agree that you get what you pay for. Don't drop a few hundred dollars (or the currency of your choice) and expect that somebody is going to give you a modern Hasselblad, it won't happen. What you will get is a camera, that if used correctly will take great pictures for not a lot of money.

Hope this help -

Feel free to write if you have more specific questions.

Woody Kamena
Castlewood Photo-

Re - Age of the Kiev's. Look, if you can, at the serial number of the camera. The first two digits are the year of production. If you see something that's pretty old, might be better to pass unless you have the opportunity to test and return it. Also, there are folks that repair, tune and adjust Kiev's, so a really good price and a tune/adjust that you pay for may still be a really good deal. It's kind of rare to get something to the US in less then a year, so don't be alarmed if you don't see a '98 or '99 serial number.

.......

Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999
From: ralf.r@bigfoot.com (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 88

...... (in RE: above)..

As far as the K60 is concerned, I doubt that there are any 98 or 99 models, at all. Production of the 60 has definitely ceased. According to a few German dealers, late production K60's are a lot more problematic than cameras made between about 87 and 93. There is a wide-spread problem with the shutter curtains opening while the shutter is being cocked, on cameras from more recent years.

On a more general note, the main advantage of the K60 is that it readily accepts a great variety of lenses including the excellent Zeiss/Jena glassware. A modified K88 with a Pentacon bayonet is almost as expensive as a second-hand Mamiya or Bronica.

Other add-ons like the MLU feature are, with all due respect, a waste of money. The shutter of the K60 causes almost as much vibration as the mirror.

Please note that the K60 does need some treatment to cure a flare problem caused by reflection inside the camera body, especially in combination with the Zeiss lenses. I had severe flare trouble with the 180 mm Sonnar until I covered the inside of the camera body with some kind of self-adhesive velvet sold by Baier Foto (www.baierfoto.de) for exactly this purpose.

I'm using a '91 K60 with a selection of Kiev (80 mm, 45 mm) and Zeiss (180 mm) lenses and I'm quite happy with it. Recently, I've had the chance to play around with a friend's Kiev 30 mm lens for a few weeks - great fun and truly amazing quality!

Cheers,
Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - K"ln/Cologne, Germany

Ralf's Cologne Tram Page and Gallery:
http://www.netcologne.de/~nc-radermra

Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999
From: Woody Kamena woody@parsippany.sgi.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 88

Hi again -

M P Brennan wrote:

> > On a more general note, the main advantage of the K60 is that it readily
> > accepts a great variety of lenses including the excellent Zeiss/Jena
> > glassware. A modified K88 with a Pentacon bayonet is almost as expensive
> > as a second-hand Mamiya or Bronica.

I'm not sure this is true. Most of the modified 88's tend to be the premium ones, where yes it's a 60 mount lens, but it's also a 2 stage mirror lockup, cloth shutter and a crank. Drop a note to Mike Fourman and ask. Also, there is nothing wrong with the Kiev 88 mount. Look at the Kiev lenses that are available and you'll find that they cover 95% of your shooting, maybe more. A 60 mount is far from a necessary (it is nice if you shoot both cameras, like me.) I've got 2 88s and 2 60s.

> So I guess this answers my question about if the 88m is worth the money.
> Better, at that point, to go with a used, better camera.

Just keep in mind, that by the time the old bronica's reach the same price point as the Kiev's, they are about 25 years old and tough to get fixed. While not every camera repair shop will fix Keiv's (they don't have the parts or the know-how) there are plenty of folks around that do - in fact Mike in Atlanta seems to have somebody he works with or is working with him. I've gone the Bronica route, too.(I've got an s, s2, and s2a with a variety of add-on) and thier nice, but I'm always worry that the next break will be the last. (The bronicas were also know for brass gears, which were kind of soft and when they finally wear down, it's tough to get them fixed/replaced.) Finding lens (especially long lenses) is also kind of tough.

> > Please note that the K60 does need some treatment to cure a flare
> > problem caused by reflection inside the camera body, especially in
> > combination with the Zeiss lenses.
>
> Does the 88 have this problem, too?

Both the 60 and the 88's can have flare problems. This is really a problem with older Kiev cameras as they were not treated (interior coated with a flat back so that it wouldn't bounce light). Most newer ones have been treated. They are usually decribed as "flocked." If you get one of these, you should have no problems.

Woody Kamena

Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999
From: ruscam645@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 88

Hi Mike,

I have been using 3 Kiev 88s (2 of them) since 1995, with only minor problems, and although I do not really consider them to be a good beginners MF camera they are a great value for the patient amateur. What I would avoid are the cameras with the cloth shutters, as they can be a problem, as I found out the hard way, and am now trying to get mine converted back to the metal shutter.

The '88 is capable of doing work that would rival the Hassy or any other MF camera, but the factory QC is poor, hence the patience- you may need to have repairs done. I've been lucky, my unaltered original Kiev 88s work fine, but the '88 isn't idiot proof, and the '88s worst enemy is the beginner who doesn't read the manual, and follow it.

If you are interested, e-mail me and I will send you(or anyone else) the Kiev 88 "does, and don'ts" and the loading instructions for the older K88 magazines ( not the newer "NT" magazines, which are very good).

Regards,

Kevin krkk@earthlink.net

Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999
From: Woody Kamena woody@parsippany.sgi.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 88

The do's and dont's, and film loading instructions for both Kiev 60s and Kiev 88s can be found at.

http://www.castlewoodphoto.com/Filmloading.html

This is part of a not-yet-finished website I hope to have up soon.

Woody

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999
From: ruscam645@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: F5 + Pro Lenses vs Kiev 88

"Wes Kinard" weskinard@home.com wrote:

> I'm a user of a Nikon F5 and own only top quality lenses.  Still I am
> beginning to consider MF for the larger negative and flexibility I see with
> 6x6 and interchangable backs.  Most of my work is nature/scenics but with a
> new son I am also taking a lot of indoor candids and formal portraits.
>
> My questions is, on basis of picture quality alone (color and sharpness),
> will the Kiev give me significant improvements over my F5 when the resulting
> print will be 8x10 or in many cases larger?  If working with MF turns out to
> be my preferred system I will eventually upgrade to a higher quality system
> (with Nikon I am already accustomed to spending a great deal for quality...
> although not as much as with MF) but for now I want to get my feet wet for a
> longer time than renting would provide.  The Kiev seems to fit the bill but
> only if it will show me some image improvement over my 35mm system.
>
> wes

Hi Wes,

I shoot a Nikon F3hp, and Kiev 88 in 645, both in B&W; almost exclusively.

I do think that you would find an improvement in image quality based on my experience. The 645 negative is 2.5x the 35mm size, and gives very smooth tonality compared to 35mm. The 35mm CAN duplicate the 645/6x6 results, but only with great effort- it's not worth it! MF is so much easier to work with!

The Kiev lenses are quite excellent, especially considering their prices. In any case, I have been using 3 Kiev 88's since 1995 with no problems other than light trap leaks on 3 of the magazines, which I had repaired, and now work fine. The Kiev 88 is a nearly unbeatable MF value. An even better combination is the Kiev 88 modified to accept the Pentacon 6/ Kiev 60 lenses. The Pentacon/Kiev mount is mechanically superior to the k88 mount, in my opinion. If I were starting over, knowing what I know now, I would go with the K88 modified for the Pentacon/ Kiev60 mount, as it is I am committed to the K88 mount, but I also have a Kiev 60+ the Carl Zeiss- Jena lenses.

Regards,

Kevin

Date: 24 Mar 2000
From: ppestis@aol.com (Ppestis)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 88 - experience ? opinions ?

>> Anyone have any contact info on Kiev Camera of Atlanta?  Thanks   Mark

The correct URL is: www.camera.kiev.ua This is for Kiev camera in Atlanta.

Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999
From: carlos@theriver.com (Carlos Alvarez)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Kiev 88 mailing list

If you are interested in a mailing list dedicated to the Kiev 88 cameras, you can subscribe using this link:

http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/Kiev88

Or send a blank e-mail to:

Kiev88-subscribe@onelist.com

This list is for the purpose of sharing information on the use and ownership of the Kiev 88, its lenses, and accessories.

--
Carlos A. Alvarez Professional Photography
http://www.wedding-photo.com

Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000
From: ralf.r@bigfoot.com (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format,rec.photo.technique.nature,rec.photo.equipment .large-format
Subject: Re: MF (Pentax 6x7) or LF (Field) for Landscapes?

Mike Simanyi mikes@redsand.com wrote:

> Some of the comments peaked my curiosity, and in my web trekking I've found
> a product that may be of interest to you.  Calumet sells a Cambo 2x3 view
> camera specifically designed to work with roll film backs.  In its standard
> configuration it will work with 6x7 or 6x9 backs, and an adapter kit may be
> purchased that will allow use of 4x5 sheet film as well.
>
> The real kicker is the price:  $1795 not including the lens, lensboard or
> rollfilm holder.  And their website claims the camera only weighs 8.3 lbs.

Well, how about a complete system with three lenses new for 1250 bucks?

Has anyone ever seen the thing Richard Wiese of Hamburg sells as a "Kiev 67" or "Kiev 6x7"....???

>From his 02/99 list (my translation, all prices in Deutschmarks, divide by 2 for USD):

# # # # # # # #

The camera is based on the Sinar P (articulations) but built only for 4.5x6 and 6x7 cm on rollfilm.

It is sold with three lenses in an electronically controlled synchronised blade shutter.

The lenses are a 90 mm (wide angle bellows included), 150 mm and 210 mm. Delivery includes the mains cable, system cable, and a 6x7 back.

Additional backs for 4.5x6 and 6x7 are DEM 300 each.

There is a mirror viewfinder for upright viewing available at DEM 200.

The camera accepts lenses down to approx. 70 mm.

Further down, it says:

Kiev 67 with 3 lenses: 90 mm, 150 mm, 210 mm rechargeable battery, loader, roll film back DEM 2500

Kiev 67 with one 90 mm lens, charger, battery, rollfilm back DEM 1900

# # # # # # # #

The accompanying picture shows a 'rail' type camera. No further info on the lenses. o, given the quite sensational price, where's the catch? The 'wide' angle limit of 70 mm? Has anyone ever seen this thing?

Cheers,
Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - K"ln/Cologne, Germany

Ralf's Cologne Tram Page and Gallery:
http://www.netcologne.de/~nc-radermra

From Hasselblad Mailing List;
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000
From: Marc James Small msmall@roanoke.infi.net
Subject: Re: Kiev Question

Jack L. Casner wrote:

>I have never personally known anyone with a good KIEV 88 of any vintage.

Well, we've never met 'personally', but I have had several fine Kiev-88's. In fact, of the several I've owned, all have been wonderful cameras in every regard, bullet-proof and trouble-free.

I still have one which I use occasionally. And I do use a Kiev prism on my 2000FCM.

Marc
msmall@roanoke.infi.net

From Hasselblad Mailing List;
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000
From: Christopher Kovacs ckovacs@stargal.net
To: hasselblad@kelvin.net
Subject: Re: Kiev Question

Hi,

I have a Kiev 88. I like it because it is inexpensive and I love the 30mm Arsat lens. It's a wonderful lens and under $200.00. As far as the camera goes. You can get one inexpensively through a couple of ebay dealers that usually give 60 day returns on the camera. If it doesn't work, you exchange it. I got a used body and had it upgraded by Kiev USA. They basically bring it up to standards and warranty the work for a year.

The camera came back a new camera.

Here are some of the common problems:

1/1000 and 1/500 are not reliable, especially with cloth shutters. New style back are easier to load, but suffer from a weak light trap. You can fix it. I did an not longer a problem, but I always check. The older backs are similar to the 12 back.

Users forget to advance the film before setting the speed. This can "lock" the camera up. I have a habit of advancing the film right after taking the picture, thus no slip ups.

Since upgrading my Kiev 88 I had on problem with the shutter. I returned it and it was promptly repaired and sent back.

It however is no Hasselblad. I just got a used 500 c/m and love it, but it's also expensive. With that price, it's reliable. A kiev 88 is NOT a pro camera and will not keep up with the demands of a professional studio.

The quality is inconsistant. Check out the ShutterBug articles, Kiev Connection (jan/feb/mar).

If you don't need exchangable backs, the Kiev 60 with mirror lockup is a better choice. It also has the pentagon 6 lens mounts. (These are available on Kiev 88 upgrades, but adds to the cost.)

I did a shoot off between my Kiev 88 and 500 w/ T* lens. The shots were so close in sharpness, if I mixed up the pictures, it would be hard to tell; I was very surpised.

The Arsat 30mm is available in both the K88 standard mount and P6 mounts. Bottom line is the bodies are quarky with special care regarding shutter speed setting, lenses are very good and inexpensive! If you get a good camera, it should last for years. For a complete kit, 80mm/2 backs/ttl prism/ standard body/ and 30 mm arsat lens well below the cost of a new Hasselblad kit.

Check out the group on Delphi.com. There is also another group on onelist.

Hope this helps,

-chris

Gdoces@aol.com wrote:

> Anyone on this board have any personal experience with the new Kiev 88 bodies
> with the cloth shutter curtain?  Some question regarding their 30mm fisheye
> lens version of the F-Distagon.  OR can someone direct me to a Kiev newsgroup
> or board.
> Thanks

From Kiev88 Mailing List:
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000
From: Kelvin kelvinlee@pacific.net.sg
Subject: Where to buy Kiev

For the more adventurous of you, buying your Kievs directly out of Moscow, here are some sample prices:

Kiev TTL kit (before 1995 production pieces)    US$150
Mir 26, 45/3.5  US$70
Vega 120/2.8            US$80
Kalenir 150/2.8 US$100
Telyr 250/5.6           US$65

From Kiev88 Mailing List:
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000
From: Charles_Lau@amat.com
Subject: Re: Where to buy Kiev

Check this web site for Kiev price info and links:

chucklau.freewebsites.com/KievPriceList.html

Chuck

From Contax Mailing List:
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000
From: "Bob Shell" bob@bobshell.com
Subject: Re: [CONTAX] Hasselblad have bought Kiev !!!!!!

Lately I've been shooting a good bit with the Hartblei modified Kiev 88C, same camera with the ugly fake snakeskin we used for the photos in Shutterbug. The people in Prague wanted to put the article up on their website and some other stuff, so rather than ship the thing back I did a trade. I don't know what all the Hartblei people do to the cameras, but this thing is smooth as silk (and ugly as sin!). I did some comparison shots between the 80mm f/2.8 Arsat MC and the 80mm f/2.8 CZJ Biotar from my Praktica 66, and the Arsat seems to have the edge by having more contrast. Of course you have to put black tape over the stopdown lever on the lens since it moves in a slot and there is no baffling to keep light out of the slot!! Lots of people mistake light coming in through this slot for camera body flare.

Anyway, I'm having fun with it.

Bob

....

Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999
From: Woody Kamena Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: new/old Kiev 88 film backs

The new backs or "NT" backs, do fit the old bodies - I don't know of any new design, but it fit's recent cameras if that that you mean by new. They are a lot easier to work with then the traditional bodies, take 220 film (no peep hole to fog film) and have an integrated dark slide holder (so people like me don't loose them when shooting).

They are a little heavier, and generally the same fit and finish as most things Kiev. Where there is normally a back release switch, there are now two, one to remove if from the camera, the other to open it like a clam-shell. The film is much easier and faster to load (my opinion, YMMV) and all in all it just seems like a better design. (If you've seen an old bronica s/s2/s2a, the back works much the same way as these).

Having both styles of backs, I always reach for the NT back first. That should say it all.

Regards

Woody

"Robert L. Wilson" wrote:

> What is the story on the "new" film backs for Kiev 88's? Will old
> backs fit new bodies? Will new backs fit old bodies?
> I see that they changed the way you open them for film loading, but
> what other changes are there?
> Bob Wilson

Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999
From: ralf.r@bigfoot.com (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Buying Russian Cameras in Russia

Rick Munday rick.munday@bananaskin.com wrote:

> Where in Germany is the company you mention? I'll be there (Hanau) for
> Christmas to see my daughter. Might be worth a drive to pick one up...

It's Richard Wiese in Hamburg. Not exactly around the corner from Hanau, at least not by German standards. Then again, if you come all the way from the U.S. the few extra miles might not make that much of a difference. :)

You'll find their website at:
ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/fotowiese

Cheers,
Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - K"ln/Cologne, Germany

Ralf's Cologne Tram Page and Gallery:
http://www.netcologne.de/~nc-radermra

Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999
From: Alexander skorokha@mail.uni-mainz.de
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Buying Russian Cameras in Russia

Hi Kevin,

I purchased VRN modification of my Kiev88 with MLU3 and black metal shutter from Kalimex. I took about two months and to my surprise I have got my camera from the first hands in Kiev during my holidays (I'm Ukrainian). So I met that person who actually developed all principal modifications of both Kalimex (Prague) and Fotowiese (Hamburg) (and he is making them for those companies). He was sorry for the delay (because Kalimex promised to do it in 3 weeks), therefore he gave me completely new body instead of mine and matt focusing screen back for macro. His business is totally independent from Arsenal. He told to me that last two years Arsenal (huge military plant in former Soviet time) is not producing lenses and Kiev60 producing department is closed already. This is not rumour anymore. Since Soviet Union disappeares Arsenal fired most of specialists. They had about 30 thousands employees and now they have hardly 3000. Imagine the the capacity of that department was about 100 cameras per month.

Additionally my camera was adjusted with my three backs (two 6x6 and one 6x4.5) because , as I was told, it should be made individually with every set (body and backs). In another words one should adjust new back with one's body. Backs were also modified to exclude any possibility for light leaks and to keep constant neg distance. It works very well, I have checked it already. The specialist told me also that cloth shutter is not good choice for such a camera as Kiev88 because cloth is becoming slightly transparent when you look , for example, through them on the sun. Cloth shutter is heavier and does not work at -15Y-20YC as metal shutter.

He started production of tilt-shift lenses (45mm and 65mm) with Pentacon/Kiev60 mount which one may purchase from Fotowiese (Hamburg) for about 1300 DM. They are very good, I have seen photos made with 45mm lenses.

Regards,

Alexander.

Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999
From: ruscam645@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Buying Russian Cameras in Russia

Hi Alex,

Many thanks for the information!! Last night I checked with adealer I know who confirmed it. I hope they are still producing the K 88!

I have a VRN K88 also( with cloth curtain) so your information was an eye opener!

Regards,

Kevin

Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999
From: ralf.r@bigfoot.com (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Buying Russian Cameras in Russia

ruscam645@my-deja.com wrote:

> Could you please tell us where this latest of rumors has come from, or
> is this just more web-based BS??

If you refer to Alexander's part about imminent closures, my usually reliable German sources say nothing of actual closures but that production in Kiev has been at a standstill for months, now. Arsenal staff are on strike because they haven't been paid for a long time.

Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - K"ln/Cologne, Germany

Ralf's Cologne Tram Page and Gallery:
http://www.netcologne.de/~nc-radermra

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999
From: wzhang1@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev MF:s? What can I say?

Well, what can I say? Different people have different tasts... some people like to spend more $$$ just for making them feel more secure, some people like to take some "risk..." some people hate the kiev cameras so much they don't even want to pick up if they see a kiev camera left on the street.

My experience with Kiev cameras (I had a Kiev 80 which is older version of the 88 and I'm currently having a Kiev 60) is pretty good over all. Say I'm a photographer, well it's much better I'm as a camera collector. I love collecting cameras and comparing the results of each produced. I found that the images produced by kiev cameras is about as sharp as the Pentacon Six TL camera which uses Carl Zeiss lens. Some fellow posted that people can get an older Mamiya TLR or Bronica SLR for about the same amount of money... however, that's just for the standard outfit, i.e. comes with a standard lens. If you want to get another used lenses besides the standard one (75mm for Bronica and 80mm for Mamiya) for the Bronica or Mamiya, then you have to spend at least twice as much as brand new kievs. You can get a 30mm fisheye lens or 250mm telephoto lens for less than $200.

But I think for you the biggest issue is that what kind of shutter do you like the most. There's two major kinds of shutters, one is focal plane and another is leaf shutter. Kiev 60 and the 88 have focal plane shutter, they're made by either metal or fabric depend on where you buy your camera, and also as the older Bronicas (S, S2, S2a). For me sometimes I feel that the focal plane causes too much vibrations, again this is just my personal references. I like leaf shutter better, cameras such as Mamiya TLRs, KOWA SIX, KOWA Super 66, Yashica Rolleiflex TLRs, and Hasselblads (except 1600f and 1000f). These camera has the shutter built in the lens, if there's something wrong with the shutter, put another lens... The focal plane shutter is basically exposing film from left to the right, or from right to the left, I have a weird feeling about setting the focal plane camera to low speed, I feel like the image will get "unevenly" exposed somehow... The leaf shutter is more "even" for me because they expose film from the center to the side and then close as from the side to the center, even if the shutter is very sticky, you will still get a balanced exposed image... But the trade off is the more of leaf shutter lens only can go as high as 1/500sec shutter speed, and focal plane can go 1/1000 or 1/2000 for medium format cameras, leaf shutter lenses are more expensive because they have shutters built in, and lenses for focal plane shutter camera are much cheaper since all they have are a group of glasses and a f stop blades.

If you are a photo student, I recomment you get a Kiev camera (either Kiev 60 or Kiev 88), and you can save a lot of money on buying lenses. If you are starting your pro business, do some weddings... and stuff, get a Hasselblad, or Mamiya RB or RZs, you will get your money back nice and easy from your work, and people look more on the camera you're holding.

Just an advise, it's up to you.

Wei

p.s. If you like to join the Russian Camera Collectors and Users email group, send an email without any message to russiancamera-subscribe@egroups.com, your email address will be automatically put on the list. After you get on the list, you can post what ever message you want by sending your message to russiancamera@egroups.com. The message will go to everybody on the list's email box and will be posted on the web site http://www.egroups.com/group/russiancamera or http://hello.to/russiancamera

monchy1@my-deja.com wrote:

> Hi, It all depends where you buy ,the average flea market Kiev will be a
> loser while buying from Kiev USA will be good but expensive .The European
> distributors are somewhere inbetween(but trying hard)If you get a one year
> warranty and try the camera at all speeds and all f-stops immediately after
> receiving it there should be no problem(in the worst case you send it  back
> immediately)The Kiev 66 is a very reliable camera once some small adaptations
> are made the Kiev 88 is more sensitive but also very plesant to work with
> .For a well balanced discussion and intresting hot links ,on the webpage,
> look into the kiev report forum on Delphi
> (http://forums.delphi.com/kievreport/messages
[ed note: see http://forums.delphiforums.com/kievreport/start/]

....

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999
From: "Pj Heikkila" pj.heikkila@pp.inet.fi
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev Cameras on E-Bay

>I see a lot of Kiev cameras & lenses at auction on EBay and seem to sell at
>reasonable prices - Kiev 3 & 4 (Contax Copies), Kiev 60 (Pentacon 6 Copy), Kiev
>88 (Hasselblad Copy) - How do they compare to the originals?

Hi Ed

First some technical and historical (perhaps political) info:

Kiev 35 mm cameras (actually they don't belong in this NG but...)

Contax-Kievs are actually prewar Contaxes. After WW II Russians took the whole Zeiss' Contax-factory and moved it to Kiev, Ukraina. Arsenal-factory (Kiev-manufacturer) used from 1948 to 1987 (I guess production ended in that year) same prewar Zeiss tools i.e. the older the Kiev - the better the quality.

Kiew 6-series (6C, 60 etc.)

East-German Praktisix/Pentaconsix have same bayonet-mount as Kiev. There might be some other similarities, but if you look at any MF-camera of the same type there will always be similarities. My opinion is that Kievs and Pentacons are different cameras. I own a Kiev 6C and I had a Pentaconsix (it broke down and I gave it to my friend who is now trying to repair it).

Saluyt cameras (Kiev 80/88, Zenith 80, Soyuz, Revue 6-6/80,Cambron)

Russians like to copy good cameras, but this might be their biggest mistake, because the original one is the worst Hasselblad ever made. I don't mean Saluyt is worse than any other Russian (or Ukrainian) camera: there are good ones and there are bad ones (sometimes I wonder if there is any quality-control).

Saluyt is a copy of Hasselblad 1600F and Saluyt-C is a copy of Hasselblad 1000F. Only difference is the fastest shutter speed (export-brand names vary in both sub-types). Newer types have some new details (X-shoe, different finishing etc.) but technically they are all same.

Old F-series Hasselblads have unreliable and too complicate shutters. Nowadays it's almost impossible to find repairmen or spare parts for them. When I asked about Russian spare parts I found out that Saluyts are mechanically very similar but not compatible.

And then some warning words about Russian and Swedish compatibility. I have many times read and heard from photo-shop owners (even reliable ones) that you can use your Hasselbald F lenses or film backs in your Russian copy. THAT IS NOT TRUE! You may broke your equipment by forcing them together (of course it's same with Hbl C). Only wiewfinders are cross-compatible.

There is a story (don't know if it's true) about Swedes, Russians and patent-violations: when Russians started to copy Hasselblad, Swedes told them that if they made an exact copy, Russian official press-agencies would not have any spare-parts or technical help for their Hasselblads. So Russians made those small but very uncomfortable alternations.

Would appreciate

>comments from users of these cameras and lenses.

First lenses.

Both MF-Kievs have optically same lenses, only mount is different. New lenses are multicoated and they are mostly optically very good (sometimes there might be some production-quality-problems) and very cheap. Best lenses for $$. My favorite is 30mm fish-eye, it's almost as good as Distagon-F but costs here in Finland only about 1/20 of Zeiss' price (even cheaper from second-hand or grey market). Mechanically they are very interesting :o/ I had once my 250mm lens suddenly divided in two parts: somebody in factory had forgotten to fasten some screws (maybe she/he had hangover or hurry to lunch). Well, somebody said that if you want good and cheap, you must buy a good one and a cheap one :o)

And then cameras

My favorite is Kiev 6. I bought my Kiev about ten (or maybe more) years ago from a second-hand camera auction (nobody else didn't want it so it was very cheap). It looks awful, some screws are missing, waist-level finder is like an old chinese tin-toy, metering prism stopped to work about five years ago (I don't need it, I have Lunasix), but it works even in frozen Finnish winter at -20 degrees centigrade. I think Kiev 6 is like a Kalashnikov-rifle: simple and reliable without any finesses. Of course there may be some troubles about quality when buying Kiev 6. Some cameras may have winding problems and I have heard about new Kievs which already have holes in their shutter curtains.

I also have a Saluyt. Mine is called Zenith 80. I bought it because I collect Swedish disasters (Hbl 1000F) and I wanted also a Russian copy of it. I don't use it very much but it seems mostly OK: one of the original backs has light leaks but if I need more backs they cost about 30$ at second-hand market here in Helsinki. (they are even cheaper in Estonia - 4 hrs ferry trip from Helsinki). Saluyt seems to be more complicated than Kiev 6 so there can be more quality-problems, but if you find a good one it is a real system-camera.

I started my MF-photography many years ago with Moscow 2 6x9-folder and Kiev 6 was my first MF SLR. After many years with eastern curiosities I have learned one thing: photographing is real fun and full of surprises. When I have some serious work to do I take Leica, Mamiya or Linhof with me, but when I'm photographing just for fun I choose Russians ;o)

Pekka H

Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999
From: ruscam645@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Few Kiev88 related Qs

omegaman omegaman@shentel.net wrote:

> rashidk@home.net wrote:
> >
> > Actually most of them would as applicable to Hassy I guess, but anyway:
> >
> > - do you know where in NYC can I find the tripod reducing bushing for K88 ?
> >
> > - in your expert opinion, what would be a better portrait lens to
>> add to my K88: 120mm or 150mm ?
> > - do you have any experience with 2x converter for K88 ?
> >
> > - what lens would you recommend for landscapes & group photos ?
> >
> > - if you use Polaroid back - what film does it take ?
> >
> > Rashid
> Rashid:
> I bought some tripod adapters from Porter's Camera Store - midwestern
> mail order company about a year ago.
>
> The 120mm is much smaller than the 150 but not as sharp - 120 is
> probably best for portraits, but both would do well
>
> The 2x converter is good but not great.
>
> Try the 45mm for groups and landscape.
>
> The Polaroid back uses the pack films from the series 665, 667, etc.

Hi Rashid,

Tripod reducing bushings should be available from any decent camera store, NYC, or elsewhwre. The usual cost is in the neighborhood of $2.50

Here, I am afraid, I must disagree with "omegaman" about the lenses. The factory figures show, and my experience bears out their findings, that the 120mm is the sharper lens at 50/30 lpmm Center/ edge, while the 150mm is less sharp at 45/18 lpmm, which would basically make the 150 the choice for portraits. Over the years many have crticized the 150 because it will not focus closer than 1.8 meters, but I think this is a good thing for portraits, as you cannot shove the lens into anyone's face and make them nervous. The longer focal length of the 150 is considered by many to be the ideal portrait lens. For portraits go with the 150. If you need a compromise lens, go with the 120.

The 2x teleconverter is said by the factory to result in about a 30% degradation in the image quality. There is a new 1.4x converter out that I want to get, as it will no doubt be of more use to me, and perhaps you.My experience with the 2x is limited, but it definitely DID degrade the image.

I shoot almost nothing BUT landscapes, and by far use the 80mm the most, then the 120, and lastly the 45, or 65mm. I would say that 90% are done with the 80mm.

I hope that's of sme help.

Regards,

Kevin Kalsbeek

Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999
From: "Gary Kitmacher" gkitman1@flash.net
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: kiev 60 or 88??

How bout the correct way to load the Kiev 88 ?

I have several 88s and a Salyut and a Salyut C. I have had them for several years.

All work well and I was pleased enough with them tghat I sold the only the 60 I tried.

I also have a wide assortment of accessories and it makes sense to stay with the same system.

The only problem I do have on occasion is the film slipping during the winding.

You simply have to take a look into the back to see the numbers on the paper backing line up - which I've learned to do regularly whether or not I'm having a winding problem.

Overall I've been happy with the 88s. It was a good way to get into medium format SLRs and I'd stick with them.

GK

Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999
From: ruscam645@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: kiev 60 or 88??

....

Hi Gary,

I have no experience with the Salyuts, but they should be very similar to the K88's. I have 3 K88's, and really love them, and also have a great many accessories- I shoot mine in 6x45.

I cannot guarantee that the method I will describe will solve ALL your problems, but adhering to this has eliminated the extra wide frame spacing problems I have encountered with some magazines, ok?

Loading the Kiev 88 Magazine

Make sure that the white "cocked" flag is showing in the window on the right hand side of the mag. ALSO make sure that NO numbers are showing in the frame counter window. If a number shows in the window, cock and fire the shutter-with the mag installed on the camera- of course- until no number shows.

Remove the insert from the housing and install the fresh roll of film into the feed position, but do not install the takeup spool into the insert. Pull a couple of inches of paper off of the new roll of film, and roll 2 to 3 turns of it onto the takeup spool MAKING SURE that it goes onto the spool straight- not folding or crumpling against the end of the spool, and is TIGHT.

Pull more paper off the feed roll as you pull the take up spool across to it's proper position, making sure it's hooked under the lip on the pressure plate, and istall the takeup spool into position. Install the insert into the magazine housing, and open the the viewing window on the back of the magazine housing, and using the key on the right side of the housing, wind on the film until the #1 on the backing paper shows in the viewing window. close the window cover, and turn the wind on key counter clockwise until the number 1 appears in the frame counter window. You are now ready to shoot.

I hope this is of some help.

Regards,
Kevin Kalsbeek

Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999
From: ruscam645@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Pentacon 6 Lenses on a Kiev 88 ?

.....

Hi Alex,

My VRN K88 has the K88 lens mount, cloth shutter, and MLU3. I did not opt for the K60/pentacon mount as I am heavily committed to K88 lenses. The VRN body has a vastly improved tripod mounting pad that allows much more stable mounting, and greatly stiffens the camera body to prevent the body from flexing and causing damage to the mechanism. The only thing odd about the MLU3 body is the unusual two stage shutter release caused by the mirror lock up- it's easy enough to get used to though.

I agree that it takes major modifications to adapt the K88 to the K60/pentacon lens mount. The K60 60 lens mount is to me far superior to the K88 mount, and is the way I would go if I were starting from scratch. It is much easier to make WELL than the K88 mount, and does not have the '88s weaknesses.

Regards,

Kevin Kalsbeek

Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999
From: ruscam645@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Pentacon 6 Lenses on a Kiev 88 ?

flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2) wrote:

> from: flexaret2@aol.com (Sam Sherman)  8-8-99
>
> The concept of adapting lenses from one camera system to another is that the
> adapter and camera body are thin enough to allow the rear element of the lens
> which is adapted to sit far enough back into the camera body to allow the lens
> to focus sharply at infinity setting.
>
> To just add adapters out in front of any camera's mount would never let lenses
> focus at infinity and they could only be used for closeup or macro shots. Many
> such 6x6 and 35MM adapters exist for Macro use only.
>
> - Sam Sherman

Hi Sam,

I too would like to know exactly what must be done to adapt the Pentacon/Kiev 60 lenses to the K88 with their shorter registration distances. However, I have and ocasionally use an adapter that allows me to use K88 lenses on my Nikon, and they DO focus to infinity, as do the Pentax screw mount lenses when used with an adapter with a negative optical element- the results are excellent, I might add.

Regards,

Kevin Kalsbeek

[Ed.note: may be using a negative diopter lens element? see lens mount adapter pages...]

[Ed. note: From Kiev-88 mailing list:]
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000
From: William Boyle wmboyle@iwinet.com
Subject: Re: similar film advance problems

erika@pinder.com wrote:

> I just ran four rolls through my second back and all 4 of them have
> overlapping frames on the first three pics.
>
> there is uneven spacing between the others but no overlapping.
>
> is there anything I can do about it?
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have seen and repaired numerous Kiev film backs that show this problem. It can be caused by not setting the frame counter to "1" at the start of the roll, or it can be caused by an internal problem with the mechanism in the film back that adjusts the amount of rotation of the pickup spool according to the frame number.

There is a cam under the frame counter wheel that moves an arm that sets the position of a stop that controls the counter-rotation of the spring loaded drive gear that you can see on the face of the film back. If you start a roll at too high a number, the cam will be in the wrong position and the take up spool won't turn enough to make up for the lack of paper and film on the spool at the beginning of a roll, so it does not pull enough film to fully advance to the next frame.

Likewise, failure of a seemingly insignificant pin in the film advance mechanism will allow the drive gear to get out of synchronization so that it does not engage the body gear correctly for the the first several frames. Repair requires disassembly of the film back and the film advance mechanism.

Bill Boyle

Blue Ridge Photo Blue Ridge Photo
Amherst, VA. Kiev Film Backs Repaired

From: monchy1@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: The kiev report
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999

Hello,

The Kiev Report has come to life again and the forum is more active than ever . It can be found on http://forums.delphi.com/kievreport/start/

[ed. note: try http://forums.delphiforums.com/kievreport/start/]

From Medium Format Digest:
From: root@foobar.hanse.de (Jens Stark)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 1994
Subject: Re: Kiev 88 Opinions

Hello !

About the Kiev 88 and Kievs in general :

Fingers off the Kiew 88. Please. I bought a Kiev 88 some time ago, it does really make a nice door step. They are full of (mechanical) bugs and prone to fail. Right now, I use the 60, which has no interchangable backs - but is much better mechanically. The best place to buy them in the US seems to be Saul Kaminsky (sp?), who gets a special selection of the export model. Do not buy anything which does not have "KIEV" in capital letters on front. The "Kiev" and "Kneb" models are inferior, second/third choice.

Lenses vary from excellent to lousy, I use a combination of original Kiev lenses, Pentacon lenses ( for the PentaconSix ) and a Carl Zeiss Jena Flectagon ( which cost me some US$ 300 ). Some of the lenses are uncoated, which means that I use one 120 just for portraits, where it just gives the models "the last kick".

Regards,
Jens

From Medium Format Digest:
From: butz@dfki.uni-sb.de (Andreas Butz)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 94
Subject: Re: Kiev 88 Opinions

> About the Kiev 88 and Kievs in general :
> Fingers off the Kiew 88. Please. I bought a Kiev 88 some time ago, it does
> really make a nice door step. They are full of (mechanical) bugs and prone
> to fail. Right now, I use the 60, which has no interchangable backs - but is
> much better mechanically. The best place to buy them in the US seems to be
> Saul Kaminsky (sp?), who gets a special selection of the export model.
> Do not buy anything which does not have "KIEV" in capital letters on front.
> The "Kiev" and "Kneb" models are inferior, second/third choice.

I agree! I owned a KIEV for 1 year, but only the second one I had worked at all. Later there were light leaks which I had to fix on my own, a mechanical problem with the shutter cocking which could be omitted by turning the cocking wheel and the readjust the shutter speed and so on... You really have to love such a camera and spend a lot of time repairing it and at the moment You need it it still won't work properly. But otherwise it's a very cheap way to find out which lenses You'll really need for Your Hasselblad later ;->

> Lenses vary from excellent to lousy, I use a combination of original
> Kiev lenses, Pentacon lenses ( for the PentaconSix ) and a Carl Zeiss Jena
> Flectagon ( which cost me some US$ 300 ). Some of the lenses are uncoated,
> which means that I use one 120 just for portraits, where it just gives the
> models "the last kick".

The lenses I had (original KIEV 30mm 45mm 65mm 80mm 120mm 150mm +converter) seemed to have a quite good optical quality, but be sure to use a lens shade *ALWAYS* !!! The inner side of the body really reflects every little bit of stray light. I ended up taping some black leather into the body to take off these reflections...

so long,
Andreas

From: "David Foy" david.foy@visto.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Why are "Kiev/USA" prices higher than others?
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000

Kiev USA takes on some responsibilities the others don't. This includes hiring and keeping trained technicians, a stock of spare parts, an advertising budget, etc. They also sell cameras with a warranty, and to a certain extent they check and adjust cameras from the factory before selling them. I believe they routinely replace some parts, like winding mechanisms on some models, that are known to be unreliable (or at least known to sometimes cause trouble). But I find their web page uninformative about exactly what they do.

The normal procedure in Soviet times was for a camera factory to ship goods to a distributor or retailer who would add value by, usually, doing the final adjustments and quality control and, sometimes, refinishing the camera completely. This continues to be the practice of Arsenal in Kiev, who ship cameras with only rudimentary q.c. (As an aside, eBay is awash with cameras from Krasnagorsk that have been beautifully refinished and often sell for $50-$75, raving, howling bargains). Most importers at least verify the camera works before shipping it, but Kiev also guarantees it.

I believe their reluctance to do a simple CLA on cameras they didn't import is justified, since they have no way of knowing how good or bad it is before they open it up and become responsible for it. As far as I know companies like Nikon USA are also reluctant to work on cameras that are not covered by a specific Nikon importer's warranty. It just seems sensible to me.

"C. Cardinal" twofoot@snet.net wrote

> This may seem odd, but I was curious as to why the prices for cameras  from
> the "Kiev/USA" website are substantially higher than those seen elsewhere?
> The exact same kit, or less, is more than double the going rate on Ebay.
> Have I missed something? Are the Ebay models knock-offs of the knock-offs?!!
>
> Just wondering...
>
> Chris  ;^)  

From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Why are "Kiev/USA" prices higher than others?
Date: 29 Apr 2000

The Kiev 88 type cameras and Kiev 60 type cameras have gearing which has not been properly polished and they use poor to no lubricants.

In the former USSR, space age lubricants have not been available to the camera factories. In short, when the cameras are wound and used over and over again this action serves to smooth or polish the gears- actually works. I once had a Kiev 6C (pre Kiev 60) a very worn body which had seen hard use, but the wind was the smoothest I noted on any of these cameras.

Yes, it is possible to get a good camera at a low price and it may work well for years. Yes, it is better to have the camera cleaned, lubed, adjusted by a competent source. It is all what the buyer can afford and is willing to invest in this project.

Overall regarding untreated cameras, my many years of experience with Kiev medium format models tells me that the Kiev 60 models are generally more reliable than the Kiev 88 models. That doesn't mean that some parties haven't had untreated Kiev 88 models that have worked well for years. I met a Russian photographer who used a Kiev 88 to take incredible high quality studio portraits of cats and dogs (national magazine quality) on 120 transparency film. These cameras can work and provide high quality results.

[Ed. note: not an endorsement, just a fyi note...]
From Kiev-88 Mailing List:
Date: Mon, 08 May 2000
From: Robert Gardner gfi@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Hartblei technicians

The guy you are looking for is:

Leonid Treskunov
Trescam@aol.com
Trescam Inc.
9A Poplar Lane
Old Bridge, NJ  08857

He did the shutter and a back for my 88 and warrenteed it too. Good service, nice guy.

mark hahn wrote:

> Jenna at www.russianplaza.com told me there was some
> guy in NJ who works on them and also offers
> gaurentees. . . sounds a lot cheaper than the KievUSA  
> rip-off joint.
>
> mark
>
> --- Timothy Broadley timb@iwvisp.com wrote:
> > Anybody know of anyone who can fix a dragging
> > shutter of a Hartblei?
> > I thought I'd ask before I return it again
> >
> > Cheers
> > Tim

From Kiev88 Mailing List:
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000
From: Robert Gardner gfi@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Hartblei technicians

Shutter repair and rebuild on back (bad gears and counter) $125 with warentee. The shutter was way off speed. Now it tests fine.

mark hahn wrote:

> just for reference, what did it cost?
>
> mark

From: kevin_i@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000
Subject: Re: Kiev Cameras

For what its worth...

Earlier this year, I finally broke down and bought a Kiev 88 kit after almost doing so back in f93 and then almost again in f95.

After getting interested in them this time around, I did more research and read all the horror stories floating around on the net... and I was hesitant. I mean... I still have a Mamiya TLR C3 with three nice lenses, and had a C330 before. Had an RB67. Got to play with several eBlads. All were very good cameras meant for taking some serious photos. So what could I expect from a cheapo Ukrainian camera that people love to say bad things about?

Well, I was bored and it was payday... so I ordered the basic kit from Mike Fourman at Kiev Camera. It cost me $330 plus $20 shipping for the body, an 80mm f2.8 lens, two 6x6 film backs, a 45-degree non-metered prism (I like to use my Minolta spotmeter), the two filters, a strap, Russian manual, and copies of some stuff about the camera in English that was gotten off the net.

The verdict? Itfs not a bad camera at all! Now, I realize that I may have gotten lucky and received an especially good one, or that the camera may still die some horrible death in the future... but so far it works very well.

-The film advance knob is smooth enough (itfs not silk, but I was expecting worse).

-The metal shutter makes some noise, but itfs not objectionable (your needs may vary, but if you want to compare it with say an older 35mm SLR with motor drive, the Kiev 88 with a metal shutter is quieter IMO).

-The lens, while it has some dust between the elements, is still very sharp at f5.6 (expectedly, corners are a bit soft wide open).

-The mirror slap isnft a problem that I can see (as an unscientific test, I put the camera on a cheap, lightweight tripod with legs fully extended, plus a light duty ballhead -- a setup I usually use for my point-and-shoot camera or lightweight SLR with a short zoom attached... I fired the Kiev 88fs shutter with a cable release. Didnft shake at all.)

-One of the two film backs had a light leak but Mike replaced it for me (he offers a 90-day exchange policy). The other film back is fine. The important thing here is that no matter what camera or accessory you buy (regardless of maker), it's important to test it before using it for anything important!

-And the camera does smell a little funny... but so what?

The important thing is that you can take good pictures with it. And, my Kiev 88 has produced some very nice pictures so far.

At $330 I canft complain. Ifm having so much fun with it that I ordered the 30mm fisheye lens and want to get a 250mm lens too. And even if it does die later on (as all cameras do at some point in time) I think I'll have gotten my moneyfs worth in the meantime.

It may not be a profs camera. Not many people say it is up to the job. I too wouldnft use it if someone were paying me to take pictures (those horror stories were pretty scary, after all)... but as an entry into medium format for a cash tight hobbyist (or as a toy for someone who just wants a new camera to play with), I say itfs worth a look.

-Kevin

....

From: "Adrian Kuryliw" kuryliwa@westman.wave.ca
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000
Subject: Re: best medium format under $2000?

At the risk of being slammed and flamed - I nominate the Russian Kiev 88. For well less than $2000, you can get a Hassy 1000f/1600 copy, and a case full of premium primes 30mm up to 300mm, and a few 6x6 and 6x4.5 interchangable backs. Your slides and negatives will match any system out there and you will have cash left over for philanthropic endeavors. Russians pay 6 months salary to get a Kiev, same as we do for our Swedish equivalent.

Just because it is inexpensive to us, doesn't mean it is lousy. No pro photofinisher that I have used can tell the results from any other MF. Any as a bonus, you won't be left feeling decadent.

:-)

Adrian

[Ed.note: I can't say if refurbishing is an urban legend or not, but if you have any doubts about what you are getting for your money, you should definitely... ASK!! ;p)]
From: "David Foy" david.foy@visto.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000
Subject: The real scoop on what Kiev USA does to its cameras

There is an urban legend that Kiev USA extensively rebuilds the cameras it imports, or claims to but doesn't. I thought it might be instructive to see exactly what they claim on their web site (I note especially the phrase "replacements are made as they are required" -- clearly some are good enough from the factory):

(start of quote)

What does the Kiev/USA Upgrade include?

There is no inspection or quality control done at the factory. That's why our factory-trained technicians completely inspect and upgrade EVERY camera and lens sold by us before it gets our trademark label, which is our seal of approval and your insurance against losing at Russian Roulette! These cameras are hand-assembled, so each one is unique unto itself. Being a fully mechanical camera, the springs and gears of each individual camera are inspected and tested. Often the spacing between frames is inconsistent and shutter speeds erratic. Also, in the case of Kiev 88, light leaks are prevented BEFORE we ship the kit. During our upgrade process, replacements are made as they are required to bring the unit up to professional tolerances and meet the stringent Kiev/USA Quality Control standards. Our technicians work with a full line of parts which enable us to repair and upgrade Kiev 88 ($325 plus shipping and handling) and Kiev 60 Kits ($225 plus shipping and handling) sent to us from the world over.

(end of quote)

Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: Mon, 01 May 2000
From: radiojon@means.net
Subject: Re: The real scoop on what Kiev USA does to its cameras

But you choose to ignore the following:

"That's why our factory-trained technicians completely inspect and upgrade EVERY camera and lens sold by us..."

This is standard procedure as once practiced by Technical & Optical Equipment, Ltd. in London. They actually sent me a shop manual for Zenit E cameras that goes through the modifications, which includes snipping off bits of shutter curtain spring to make the who camera work smoother!

I would not call what Kiev USA is doing an "urban legend."

John

From Nikon Mailing List:
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000
From: Bill Maloney bills188@yahoo.com
Subject: Kalimex Info?

Has anyone on the list purchased one of the Peleng fisheyes from Kalimex in the Czech Republic? I was interested in the 17mm 2.8 for Nikon. I remember a while back a couple of folks had the lens and were happy with it, but I wanted to hear with anyone who had dealt with this firm. Their web site has been up and down over the last month but now it's back up. I emailed them asking if they accept credit card payments yet (on the site they said that Czech banks did not accept cards for international transactions) and for shipping costs and got the following automated reply:

--------------------

Thank you for your request!

Because of summer/August holidays our work time is limited. That's why our answer could be delayed.

Firm Kalimex is now under full reorganization. Firm Kalimex will represent Hartblei corporation directly as a trade division of Hartblei.

All the Best,
Alexandre Pissarenk
------------------

Thanks,

Bill Maloney
Wayne, NJ USA

From Kiev 88 Mailing List:
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000
From: "Rod Fleming" rodfleming@sol.co.uk
Subject: Re: Flare

Hi

Kevin Kalsbeek wrote

>Having used 88s for about 6 years, I am not much of a believer in the flare monster. It is more 
>probable, not having seen the photos, that the problem is more likely a light leak in the magazine. 
>These usually occur in the slot where the dark slide is inserted, and is quite easily repaired- a 
>Hasselblad repairman should be able to do it if there is no source of Kiev repair nearby. 

FWIW I completely agree with you. There is a nasty internet rumour around, which seems largely centred on a number of articles written by someone who clearly did not understand his camera and who should have bought a self-loading, automated p&s;, to the effect that these cameras are somehow cursed by flare as well as many mechanical ills clearly brought on by his own ineptitude.

This is complete nonsense. These cameras are certainly no worse than many other cameras of the same design vintage, and a bit of care, particularly with regard to shading, will yield results. People should remember that though their Kiev may have a '90's date on it, it is a piece of late '30's design; it is a classic, and needs to be treated as one. Do I expect my classic Daimler to be as hassle free as a new Ford? Do I thump.

You are correct about the light-trap failure in the back- it seems to be impossible to get rid of this ill completely, but it's a curse which afflicts older Hasselblads too. (Now there's a surprise>) It's easy enough to replace it yourself, just note where the long screws and the short screws go when you remove the cover plate.

The later cloth shutters show less of the "flare" problem because the problem is caused by light getting through the light trap, reflecting off the shiny foil shutter onto the film. Clearly the cloth is less reflective than the metal. But if there was no light getting in in the first place, there would be no more problem.

I'm thinking of removing the metal foil trap from one of my backs and replacing it with a strip of velvety material as it used in the light-trap of a 35mm film canister, but before I do so, has anyone else tried this? And what (if any) difference did it make?

As for the internal flocking, your results confirm my own- this is an unnecessary modification which does not address the problem and which will also, BTW, be a dust magnet. However, I think the "flatness" of the internal paintwork could be helped a bit by the application of some modellers flat black enamel. This will have as much (or as little) effect as the flocking and not attract the dust!

Rod

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000
From: "Thom Tapp" ttapp1@bellsouth.net
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev Camera kits

I have a Kiev 88 with 45mm, 65mm, 80mm, 120mm, and 250mm lenses. The total price of all this is less than the bottom of the line Hasselblad with one lens, back and finder. I will admit I would love to have the same system in Hasselblad... but my images are VERY pleasing to me. All of the lenses produce sharp, crisp, contrasty pictures in black and white and color.

If I was a professional photographer, I would still use the Kiev as a back-up. If you want a Hasselblad, go for it... but in my case, I just couldn't justify the expense. I am a pastor, on a limited budget, and with a family! I enjoy the camera, and I think that is the bottom line. I sure can't put Hasselblad down... but since I will never be able to afford one... I LOVE my Kiev!

Thom

--
Thom Tapp - Kingston TN
Visit the Church of the Covered Dish at:
http://www.botcw.com/thom

Date: 06 Sep 2000
From: jsprine@aol.comnojunk (James S. Prine)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev Camera kits

>The quality of images you can achieve with inexpensive Kiev equipment is
>virtually indistinguishable from the images you can obtain when using
>high-end
>hasselblad gear. 
>
>If you believe that line of moronic bullshit, give Kiev a call....  they've
>got
>just the camera system you need.

I have a Hasselblad 500C/M with an 80mm 2.8 Zeiss lens, and now a Kiev 88 with its Ukranian 80mm 2.8 lens. The images they produce are identical in quality.

If that's "moronic bullshit", I am guilty as charged, your Honor.

Date: 07 Sep 2000
From: jsprine@aol.comnojunk (James S. Prine)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev Camera kits

>I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and guess that you just probably don't
>have the ability to tell the difference.

Have it your way, I am an imbecile without any skills, taste, or anything else you approve of. So sue me.

However, why anyone would use a

>Kiev
>when they have a Hassleblad certainly would call their sanity into question.

Friends and colleagues often ask me to test their cameras and lenses, and it's become an enjoyable habit. I greatly enjoy the wonderful Hasselblad and its fine lenses, but the Kievs from Ukraine amaze me with their performance. Most hobbyists simply cannot afford Hasselblad equipment.

I also enjoy my Pentacon 6, my Yashica 635, my Zeiss Ikon Nettar, my Agfa Isolette, and even my old Pho-Tak Foldex 20.

Thank God I don't have to impress clients with fancy gadgets, my photographic efforts are for personal enjoyment and, when I'm working, for recording crime scenes.

Jim in New Orleans

Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000
From: "Alexander" skorokha@mail.uni-mainz.de
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev Camera kits

Hi Michael,

> Huh?  Exactly what items does the Kiev "system" consist of?  I'm very
> interested in the "etc." part of your answer...

Here is the list of "etc." for Kiev system (Kiev88 with P6 bayonett) :))

Lenses (also for Kiev60, Exacta66, Pentacon6)

30mm Fisheye (Arsenal)
45mm Mir26 (Arsenal)
45mm shift PC Hartblei
45mm TS (tilt-shift) PC Hartblei
50mm Flektogon (Carl Zeiss Jena)
55mm shift PC Arsat (Arsenal)
65mm Mir38 (Arsenal)
65mm Courtagon (Scheider Kreuznach)
80mm Volna/Arsat
80mm Biometar (Carl Zeiss Jena)
80mm Exacta (Schneider Kreuznach)
120mm Vega (Arsenal)
120mm Biometar (Carl Zeiss Jena)
150mm Kalejnar (Arsenal)
150mm Tele-Xenar (Schneider Kreuznach)
180mm Sonnar (Carl Zeiss Jena)
140-280mm Vario... (Schneider Kreuznach)
250/5.6 Telear (Arsenal)
250/3.5 Jupiter (Arsenal)
300mm Sonnar (Carl Zeiss Jena)
500mm Arsat Macro (non-mirror Arsenal)
600mm MTO (mirror Arsenal)

Teleconverters 1.4x and 2.0x
Extension tubes
Polaroid back
6x6 and 6x4.5 backs (new and old style)
Digital back with Phase One (Wiese Fototechnik)
Panorama back (Wiese Fototechnik)
TTL and non-TTL prism  (45Y)
90Y prism (Hartblei)
Focusing matt grid screen for macro
Hand grip and side grip with flash shoe

Maybe I forgot something :)

> And how does the size of this "system" compare to a true system camera,
> such as Rollei 600x, Mamiya, Hasselblad or Bronica???

....

Regards,

Alexander, happy owner of Kiev88 system modified by Hartblei.

Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000
From: "eMeL" badbatz99@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev Camera kits

You are technically right, but...the devil - as they say - is in the details:

1. For MOST users of Kiev cameras, the availability of P-six mount lenses (numbering nine on your list) is of no consequence, because MOST Kievs DO NOT have the P-six mount. Same with accessories such as teleconverters and the majority of available extension tubes (you forgot the East German bellows and other old and new P-six/Exakta accessories which fit the P-six mount of Kievs. Again, they fit only SOME Kievs...)

Besides, ALL Carl Zeiss Jena and many Schneider Kreuznach lenses exist ONLY on the used market: There is no Carl Zeiss Jena anymore (and it hasn't been in a while...) and Schneider Kreuznach has ceased production of most (all?) lenses in P-six mount. Perhaps you should qualify your "list" with this simple statement, because maybe, just maybe, a buyer of a new camera expects that the all lenses you have so eloquently enumerated are available "new"..?

2. Assuming I need simple items... lens shade, proper case, spare lens cap, spare body cap...Where will I get them..? And about something more esoteric, such as microscope coupling (or a dark slide...?) Or a SCA flash module, or a QR tripod coupling. Looks like I should I make my own, or turn to aftermarket, right?

3. Some items on your list are after-market items that fit many other cameras (Phase one...)

But what's the hay, if you enjoy it and if it works for you - fine! But please try not to misrepresent a skeleton of a system, under-engineered and made without any QC to speak of, as a serious camera system. Yes, it will make pictures but it is otherwise equal to a 1936 automobile (which would run, but required oil change every 500 miles and patching of inner tubes every 100 or miles...)

Michael

From Kiev 88 Mailing List:
Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000
From: Christopher Kovacs ckovacs@stargal.net
Subject: Magazine Light Leaks, repair/checks.

You can check for light leaks easily around that location with old style Magazines, not sure about the new style.

First, unload all film from magazine.

Attached the magazine to the body. Remove the magazine transport assembly by unlocking the film transport lock and pulling out the transport assembly. Remove the dark slide from the back.

Now go into a dark room with a flashlight. Holding the camera pear into the transport assembly and with the flashlight move around the outer camera body and magazine mating area. Look for any light coming into the inner magazine.

To check for light leaks with light traps, again no film installed, remove the dark slide from the magazine. Using the slide as a shield mate the slide vertically with the magazine. Look into a bright light or outside area.Look for light entering the trap area.

Here is an HTML site that shows the above procedure in detail:

http://www.stargal.net/kiev_info

-chris

Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000
From: kevin_i@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Trying to decide........$329 Kiev 88 TTL or $220 Kiev 60 TTL

Despite the fact that my Kiev 88 works fine (save a few minor problems that I either learned to live with or fixed myself) and I'm very happy with it... They are NOT cameras for all people. Kievs are a bit of an odd breed... and maybe fit only for a certain (odd) bunch of people? ;-)

They can be flakey -- work fine one day, and konk out on another, then work fine again after that. They can have a myriad of problems right out of the box -- including (but not limited to): funny light leaks, film advance problems, inaccurate shutters, rough feeling film advance, blah, blah blah. The lenses usually have dust and gunk between elements. And they smell funny (but that goes away and/or you get used to it).

But, in their favor, *when* they work they are capable of taking beautiful pictures rivaling (IMO) much much more expensive systems. And of course, they're so darned cheap compared with other MF gear.

So... that really tosses the ball back into your court. Is a Kiev for you? Only you can decide. If you've been around cameras for a while and are the patient type who doesn't mind working through problems... then a Kiev might be for you.

Okay... and now about Kiev Camera. That's where I ordered my camera from at the beginning of May this year, and like I mentioned earlier, I'm very happy with it (so far?). I paid $330 for the non-TTL prism version (my choice) so to me $329 for the TTL kit sounds good. Also, Mike Fourman seems to now be including a few other things in the kit that mine didn't come with -- namely the grip (I wonder if that's the pistol grip or the bracket that goes to the side... my guess is it's the bracket) and the cable release. If the cable release is specifically designed to fit Kiev cameras, that's kind of nice because I had a heck of a time finding releases that would fit on mine. Would you believe that on Kievs even the threading for the cable release seems a little funky?

And maybe best of all, Mike seems to have upped his warranty from 90 days to 180 days (for the 88). Wow. Pretty good! But keep in mind that it's (most likely still) an exchange warranty... if your camera is bad, you have to send it back to him and he'll send you a new one (with a whole new set of problems to have fun with?).

No comment on the whether or not to go with a Kiev 60 versus 88 though. I only have a Kiev 88. Personally, I prefer the design of the 88 (no, not because it looks like a Hassey) and appreciate being able to change film backs mid-roll since I like to shoot both color and black and white. But that's personal preference.

Lens mount... I have the standard Kiev 88 screw mount. This isn't really a problem for me. The focal lengths you can get in the Kiev lens lineup are: 30, 45, 65, 80, 120, 150, 250, and 300mm. That pretty much covers anything most people might ever want or need. There's supposed to even be a 500mm... but I've never seen one.

I personally have the 30, 45, 80, and 150mm (I want a 250mm f3.5 someday!). And IMO, they're all fine lenses... except maybe for the 45mm which, as many would expect, is a little soft at the corners wide open. But we all know that many lenses suffer like this, right? Stop it down to f8 or so, and it does just fine.

Purely my humble opinion, but the Kiev lenses do very well. However, if you're concerned and want to go for a more "prestigious" marque (and have the extra dough to spend)... the Pentacon 6/Kiev type-C mount on a Kiev 60 or Kiev 88CM or modified Kiev 88 opens up the possibility of putting Zeiss Jena and other lenses on your Kiev. There are also Schneider lenses in this mount... but that's kind of like trying to put a Ferrari engine into a Pinto. (sorry if you're a Pinto fan)

-the other Kevin

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000
From: "M P Brennan" mpbrennan@xoommail.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 88? What's a fair price?

Karen:

I can't speak from direct experience on this, only from my research, so far, but I would consider buying the Hartblei 1008 from www.hartblei.com

They take a Kiev 88 and completely remanufacture it. In the process, they convert it to use Hasselblad backs. They are supposed to be much better than the original Kiev 88.

I have two Hasselblads, but have toyed with the idea of purchasing one of these cameras so that I can make use of the very good and very inexpensive lenses available for the 88.

Kiev 88's are somewhat notorious for problems with the bodies and backs. By purchasing the Hartblei 1008, you eliminate the unreliable backs but still get to use the glass. Theoretically, at least, you'd be getting a reliable body in the process.

If I were you and had my mind set on the Kiev (or a variant), I'd get:

Harblei 1008 body ($252) from Hartblei
Selection of lenses from www.kievcamera.com
Used Hassy back from eBay ($175) or new Hassy-compatible back from
Hartblei ($140 for "FM12")

If you ever moved up to a Hasselblad, you could continue to use your backs.

-Mike

From Rollei Mailing List:
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000
From: Marc James Small msmall@roanoke.infi.net
Subject: Re: [Rollei] OF-TOPIC: Kiev 88 cameras

mark blackman wrote:

>Has anyone on this list seen/used one of these?  What is your view of
>them?

I'm not certain exactly what you are asking. I have owned Kiev 88's for the past decade (along with a Hasselblad 2000FCM rig), and have used the '88 extensively. Bob Shell on this List has reviewed the '88 for SHUDDERBUG on several occasions, as well.

I like the '88. I would recommend that you buy a domestic model (lettering in Cyrllic) used, and then have Eddie Smoloff at Active Camera in Brooklyn CLA the thing. I have never had any difficulty with the reliability or quality of those which I have owned.

Marc

msmall@roanoke.infi.net

[Ed. note: Mr. Small is a noted expert on Rollei and Leica cameras and optics, moderates the Rollei Mailing list etc....]
From Rollei Mailing List;
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000
From: Marc James Small msmall@roanoke.infi.net
Subject: Re: [Rollei] OFF-TOPIC: Kiev 88 cameras

mark blackman wrote:

>What are the lenses like?
>What is the metering like?
>how well-built are they?
>how well do they handle?
>
>pound for pound (or dollar for dollar) how to they compare to a Rollei?

Well, no. The Kiev-88 is not a Rolleiflex: it is a focal-plane shutter MF SLR, not as well built as the SL-66. It is an improvement over its original, the Hasselblad 1000F, though, and is a bit more durable than was that camera. The lenses are superb, being derivatives of Zeiss Jena and Oberkochen originals. Many have complained of the accuracy of the metering but none of the 4 or 5 meter-prisms I have owned have been far off, and these meters are readily calibrated. They handle, well, like a Hasselblad 1000F in most regards. None of mine have ever let me down.

Marc

msmall@roanoke.infi.net

From Rollei Mailing List:
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000
From: Bob Shell bob@bobshell.com
Subject: Re: [Rollei] OF-TOPIC: Kiev 88 cameras

> From: mark blackman mark.blackman@email.sainsburys.co.uk
> Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 
> To: rollei@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
> Subject: Re: [Rollei] OF-TOPIC: Kiev 88 cameras
>
> What are the lenses like?

Decent. Get one with the Pentacon mount and you can use Carl Zeiss Jena lenses on them. The only Kiev lens that I use on mine regularly is the Arsat fisheye. I have 50, 80, 120, 180, and 300 Carl Zeiss Jena and a 500mm Prakticar for mine.

> What is the metering like?

Calibrate the meter yourself and it will be pretty good.

> how well-built are they?

Depends on the day of the week. Some are well assembled, others just slapped together. Buy from a dealer who reworks them and gives a real warranty, like Kiev USA.

> how well do they handle?

As well as a Hasselblad!

> pound for pound (or dollar for dollar) how to they compare to a Rollei?

I guess in pound per dollar they are a better buy. I use the Rollei when I can't afford to lose the shot. The Kievs are more for play.

Bob

From Rollei Mailing List:
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000
From: calciua@hn.va.nec.com
Subject: Re: [Rollei] OFF-TOPIC: Kiev 88 cameras

Hey, this question is right up my alley, sort of.

I used to import Kievs (both 60 and 88) through a friend who travelled to Ukraine several times per year. Here is the skinny:

factory kievs
many are good, some are outstanding, many are iffy, and some just suck. If you buy one you can have it overhauled for about 100 bucks and it should be good and reliable for a long time. Marc highly recommends Eddie Smoloff of Active Camera in New York. I had him CLA one body for me and it has worked flawlessly until I dropped it in a stream.

kiev USA kievs
same as the factory ones, except they put their logo on them and triple the price. I feel this is the worst deal of teh century.

Hans Roskam kievs
Great cameras, high cost. He overhauls them completely, but you have to pay for the labor costs from Germany (read: expensive)

Kalimex/Hartblei
I paid them 3 years ago, to this day they still have not delivered. They even screwed up the cameras they sent to Shutterbug for review, and they KNEW it was going to be reviewed and published. Snake skins and other coverings are garrish.

Michael Fourman
Decent guy, factory Kievs, read above

My advice:

Buy the chepest Kiev 88 kit you will find. Send it to Smoloff for overhaul.

Enjoy

Lenses:

30mm most are outstanding

45mm pretty good

65mm if you cannot find a 65mm Flektogon, it it acceptable

80mm some good, some outstanding

150mm I have not yet shot mine

250mm the 5.6 version is vastly superior to the 3.5 version, AND CHEAPER

300mm I only saw one and the result was not impressive. Could be the camera sucked, too.

500mm I have not yet touched one of these babies, but I heard they were few made and all were great as it was such a small run under the almost "prototype" designation.

1000mm - I have not yet seen one of these, but it seems they are 35mm catadioptric designs that may or may not be usable on the Kiev 60/88 series.

-_______________
Andrei D. Calciu (VA-4270)

From Rollei Mailing List:
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000
From: Bob Shell bob@bobshell.com
Subject: Re: [Rollei] OF-TOPIC: Kiev 88 cameras

....

Well I have two different vintage Kiev 88s, one Hartblei 88, one Kiev 60 and one Kiev 645. They all work perfectly and have done so for up to eight years (the oldest one).

One came from Continent Wide Enterprises in Canada, one came from Kalimex in Prague, and the rest came from Kiev USA.

The Hartblei is the smoothest in operation.

Bob

From Rollei Mailing List:
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000
From: Marc James Small msmall@roanoke.infi.net
Subject: Re: [Rollei] OFF-TOPIC: Kiev 88 cameras

Bob Shell wrote:

>Sorry, but I know for a fact this is not true.

Shame on you, Bob! There is naught good to report on this "Kiev USA". The negatives outweigh the positives what, seven to two? Pay chump funds to get a worthless guarentee?

Buy a used SPS camera and have Eddie Smoloff rehaul it to its intended condition. This will cost you half what "Kiev USA" charges -- and will be twice the result!

Marc

msmall@roanoke.infi.net

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: jayandriot@aol.com (JayAndriot)
Date: Thu Nov 30 2000
[1] Re: Hartblei--any experiences good or bad

Hartblei is the best Kiev that you can get, but it is still a Kiev. I had one, wanted it for the 30mm Arsat lens which is a lot of fun, but my body turned out to be a dud. It had problems with the film advance, had a pinhole in the shutter, all and all not up to even casual use. The lenses were just o.k. Fine if you want marginal sharpness and no correction for flare. If you're looking for cheep thrills look on the used market for better cameras and lenses than the Russians make.

Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000
From: ruscam645@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Hartblei--any experiences good or bad

"vrf" vrf@pacificnet.net wrote:

> Hartblei in the Czech Republic manufactures lenses for medium format
> cameras. They make a shift/tilt lens that works with the Contax 645 that
> sounds useful. Anyone have ANY experience with this company?  Thanks

Hi,

My advice is try them,as they are quite hot on keeping the customer satisfied, which is why they bought out Kalimex. Contrary to the other post, the Ukrainian lenses are NOT- I repeat not subject to flare problems. This is assuming you know what a lens shade is for, and unlike the other poster, I must assume you do. I have used Kiev 88 and 60 cameras for several years, with only moderate mechanical probs with the K60s. The lenses are first rate, and cannot be beat for the price. If you wish to contact me off list,I will be happy to provide loading instructions for the K60 and K88, etc. Yes, I DO have a Hartblei modified body!

Best wishes,

Kevin

From: Alexander Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000
skorokha@mail.uni-mainz.de
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: where to upgrade from my broken hasselblad copy?

Concerning Kiev/Salyut: Go to Kivereport at

http://www.delphi.com/kievreport/start

[ed. note: try http://forums.delphiforums.com/kievreport/start/]

At second, I recommend to look on www.hartblei.com and read Shutterbug articles "Kiev Kronicles" published there.

Regards,

Alexander.

perkowitz@my-deja.com wrote:

> a few months ago i picked up a salyut, my first medium format SLR. i
> found i really like the waist-level SLR style and i like square format.
> unfortunately, the salyut jammed and i haven't been able to fix it
> myself. i'd like to continue with this kind of camera but can't decide
> where to go from here. my budget is certainly more than the $130 or so
> i spent on the salyut. i could conceivably save up for a $1000 system
> or so. i don't need a metering prism or anything. a basic 80/2.8 lens
> is fine for now, though it would be nice to be able to eventually get
> something like a 150 and a 50. i don't want to plunk down more money
> than i have to get a nice user, but i don't want to spend money on
> something that's just going to break again. some of the options seem to
> be:
>
> - try to get the salyut fixed. probably cheap, but maybe just sinking
> more money into something that will break again
> - buy another salyut. similar problem
> - kiev 88. i'm not sure these are any more reliable than an old salyut,
> and they're more expensive and uglier. i could be wrong
> - an older bronica (S2 or similar). are they reliable?
> - an older hasselblad (not sure which). still pretty pricey
> - more recent bronica (SQ-A, SQ-B)
>
> suggestions/hints?
>
> thanks
> mike
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>    mike perkowitz                     www.perkowitz.net/photo

From Kiev 88 Mailing List:
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000
From: Pastor D L Dickerson therevdd@juno.com
Subject: Re: K88 cloth vs metal

Hi,

I have both a cloth shutter Kiev 88 and metal shutter Kiev 88. The cloth shutter is easier for hand held work and has lower noise. Both are reliable cameras. If I am out in the cold weather, I use the metal. Below -10 F, the cloth shutter tends to be less reliable on giving correct shutter speeds.

One important recommendation for a cloth shutter Kiev 88 user, remember sun light can burn a hole in a cloth shutter. Do not point the camera towards the sun with the mirror up and no lens cap. (I advance the film after each photograph to avoid an problem.)

Dale

[Ed. note: yet another reminder - RTFM!!!...]
From Kiev 88 Mailing List:
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000
From: Kevin Kalsbeek krkk@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Re: Kiev 88 CM from Michael Fourman

Titus,

I know Genna Kaplan fairly well, and don't doubt his word about the Hartbleis. The problem is that both Hartblei and Kiev must be used correctly, and people do not read instructions. If you adjust the shutter speed before cocking the shutter, for instance, your camera is history- to the extent you must get it repaired. I have actually had more problems out of the box with K60's than the 88's.

Kevin

From Kiev 88 Mailing List:
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000
From: mark hahn markhahn2000@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Re: Kiev 88 CM from Michael Fourman

as far as I know they all have cloth shutters and all the newer 60's and 88's are flocked no matter where you get them.

From Kiev88 Mailing List;
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000
From: Kevin Kalsbeek krkk@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Kiev 88CB cloth shutter curtains

Hi,

I corresponded with someone who had problems with his Kiev/USA cloth shutters. When they became unserviceable, Kiev/USA couldn't fix them and wanted him to spend more money on a different, "upgraded" body.

I had a VRN (now Hartblei) with cloth curtains. The speeds got so wierd that I sent it back, and had it converted to the black metal curtains.

Cloth curtains? No thanks!

Kevin

nikitakat@edsamail.com.ph wrote:

> Has anyone experienced problems with the KIEV88CB's (as identified by
> KIEV USA) cloth shutters? My camera is new yet the curtains have
> pinholes and gets stuck if left cocked for more than 5 minutes.

From Kiev 88 Mailing List:
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001
From: Dale L Dickerson therevdd@juno.com
Subject: Re: Re: Kiev 88CB cloth shutter curtains

KievUSA no longer sells a cloth curtain Kiev 88. They had to many problems with them. One of the problems was the material used for the cloth curtain.

Dale

[Ed.note: possible glitch?...]
rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: avuroski@aol.com (Avuroski)
Date: Tue Jan 02 2001
[1] Kiev 88 CM lens mount problem

Just bought a kiev 88cm, which seems like a wonderful piece of equipment, definately better than the old 88's, but there seems to be a big problem- I bought this camera to work with the Zeiss Pentacon mount lenses as well as the nice russian lenses, but it doesn't seem to fit the Flektogon 50/4. They both have the same bayonet mount, but the Flektogon's depth-of-field preview lever is too close to the base of the lens - it prevents the lens from going all the way into its recess and hence cannot be locked in (i.e., attached). The only solution I can think of is to remove (ie., cut off) the preview lever. Any solutions/ thoughts/ suggestions? Please advice.

avuroski@aol.com

From Kiev 88 Mailing List;
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001
From: "Kelvin" kelvinlee@pacific.net.sg
Subject: Re: Where to buy?

------------
The K60 mount is the only way to go. You have a choice of many more lenses. The Kiev 88CM takes the K60 type lenses, Pentacon P-6 and Exacta 66. You can find lenses from Ziess, Ziess Jena, Pentacon, Kiev and others. Some of the P-6 lenses are manual though, no preset. The regular K88 only accepts the K88 mount lenses, much more limited. The K60 mount is also more robust and less prone to breaking. ---------

Slight correction here. The K88 B (the Hassy 1000F copy) also takes Hassleblad 1000F series lenses (they're preset) as well as an odd assortment of Killfits, Zoomar, Kaligar and even the pre-war Zeiss Jena 180 olympia lenses, with the relevant adaptors. Of course, these lenses are too expensive and difficult to find relative to the available Kiev ones... and mostly uncoated or monocoated. But they do turn up on ebay sometimes. The adaptors are a lot more tricky to find, though they can sometimes be made from the extension tubes.

And if the Zeiss Jena Olympia 180/2.8 comes up on ebay, they usually go for 1/2 the price of the existing P6 version... because most people don't know what to do with them ;)

From Kiev88 Mailing List;
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001
From: "Jay Y Javier" nikitakat@edsamail.com.ph
Subject: Re: Subject: Checking a Kiev 88 with cloth shutters & MLU

Hello Mike!

I've been using the cloth-shuttered version of the Kiev 88 for some time now, and I've had a lot of sorry stories for it. You may have read by now from the other letters in this group that the standard Kiev 88 (with ss steel shutters) is better.

I got mine from KIEV USA. The camera arrived clean, but the mechanism fouled up. Particularly, the SHUTTER. Mine had a lot of pinholes and suffered from shutter bounce. It was fairly accurate, and I could have been happy with its performance if I could accept PARTIALLY exposed frames! (This is the phenomena when you get a picture that's not totally square (in the case of the 6x6 back), but one in which one side is partially covered, fuzzy edged, &c.;).

If you must check the camera, this is how I tested (and discovered the defects) my Kiev 88 CB (KievUSA's designation):

Remove the lens and the film magazine, cock the shutter, and lock up the mirror. Look through the lens mount, fire a small flash unit from the magazine position (make sure that the flash is at least 15 cm away from the curtains!). The flash is fired by open flash, not by the camera's sync. If you notice bright points of light on the fabric, then the shutter has pinholes. Small ones seem to be normal for these type of shutters from Kiev (this is the same case with my Kiev 60) and from my experience, doesn't seem to affect the picture at all..

Fire the shutter and do the same test for the second shutter curtain. If you do find holes as though they were pricked by a pin (I found one on my Kiev), these would be very serious. I was able to remedy this by applying some rubberised black textile paint (the stuff used for T-shirt printing, and should be available from graphic-arts shops). I daubed the stuff (gently!) on the curtain and let it dry for about an hour. Put as little as possible. You should be able to locate the hole precisely by placing the camera on a light box. Apply on the side facing the film magazine.

For accuracy, I was able to device a test using COLOUR REVERSAL FILM (eg, Ektachrome or Fujichrome). Since your TTL meter works perfectly, this test should be easy. You can test speeds from 1/30 till 1/1.000. This test is done in bright daylight and preferably with a tripod mounted camera. Look for a suitable daylight subject which is lit evenly and not too high contrast. Choose a subject which will photograph correctly on ISO 100 or ISO50 colour reversal film with the settings of 1/30 sec @ f/16. Expose frame #1 at this setting. Make succeeding exposures on the rest of the rolls using a different combination, i.e., frame #2 =1/60 @ f/11, frame 3= 1/125 @ f/8, and so on, until you reach 1/1.000 sec. Note the settings which each frame was exposed with. Pray that the light doesn't change between exposures!

When the roll is processed, the resulting frames should be identical, that is no frame should be denser or lighter than the rest. A denser frame would mean that a particular shutter speed (or aperture setting) is moving faster than it should, giving less exposures, a lighter frame on the other hand would mean that it is moving slower than marked , giving more exposures.

With the mirror lock-up, try to see if it works with "B" or the slower speeds. My camera doesn't. Also, try to see if the little metal flap behind the mirror (located near its hinge close to the focussing screen) is attached properly. On my camera, this flap is askew. It sometimes casts a shadow on my exposures.

Who hasn't a story about Kievs?

Good luck! I guess part of the thrill of owning and using a Kiev comes from the fact that we could never really be sure of what's coming.

Kiev88@egroups.com wrote:

>Hello folks,
>
>I just bought a Kiev 88 (body only) with a cloth shutter and MLU from
>Mikhail Fourman, er - at least I paid for it last Thursday.
>
>Once it arrives, what steps do you suggest I take to check the quality?  I
>have 6X6 backs that don't leak light (at least when attached to my other
>K88 body); a clear lens; and a calibrated TTL.  I had so many problems with
>my other K88 body (long story) that I would like to go about this
>systematically.
>
>I will check for pin holes in the cloth shutter and bad flocking as an
>earlier poster suggested.  I'll also check the lens mount for fit and the
>screen for consistant and even focusing.  I'll have to check shuter speeds
>by ear.  Then I'll shoot some B&W film.  Am I missing anything else?  What
>should I look for in the MLU function?
>
>Thanks in advance for your comments,
>Mike

Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001
From: no@spam.here (Demetrios)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 88cm Kit

Eldritch epididmis@hotmail.com wrote:

>    Does any one know the scoop on these cameras?  Are they worth the
>extra bucks?  What's really better about them?  What's the cm stand for?

Cloth vs. metal shutters which make it quieter. The noise isn't too bad even with the metal, sounds like any other mechanical camera.

Supposedly beefier tripod mount.

Hand crank on the side vs. round knob.

Vastly improved film magazines. Better frame spacing, easier advance and easier load.

Pentacon 6 mount like on the Kiev 60. It allows the use of Zeiss lenses and is a beefier mount.

Side mounted shutter release.

Earlier model had the spot meter which was more useful. They've switched back to the older center weighted model.

From Kiev88 Mailing List;
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001
From: Kevin Kalsbeek krkk@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: cock first before you set! K88 and K iev RF

Jay,

THANK YOU! I can't find my manual right now, but at least, now I know I am NOT senile!!!!! B^)

Kevin

nikitakat@edsamail.com.ph wrote:

> hey there!
>
> it DOES SAY in the Kiev 88 instruction booklet (english version issued
> by zavod arsenal) that the speeds must NEVER be set without cocking the
> shutter first. I have a damaged K88 for this reason.
>
> the kiev RF (versions 2,3,& 4) has a shutter which looks like a relation
> to the K88 shutter. I remember that my 4am's shutter could not be set to
> another shutter speed if the shutter wasn't cocked...

the shutter dial (which was part of the advance knob) won't be set properly to a desired stop. There was one time that I mistakenly attempted to change the shutter before cocking it and the result was a gap that remained open even after the shutter was fired!

> jay
>
> russiancamera@egroups.com wrote:
>
> >At 02:12 PM 1/20/2001 -0800, Kevin Kalsbeek wrote:
> >>Another weak point if you want to call it that is that, like the
> >>Kiev 
> 88, you NEVER adjust the shutter speed without having the shutter 
>
> >>COCKED- this is bad in the RF cameras, but disastrous in the >
> >>K88!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> >Say again, all after?  This is bullshit.  I have owned a number of '88's
> >and have never had a problem in setting speeds before or after cocking.
> >Read the repair manual -- where would a problem crop up?  And, again, where
> >would a problem occur in selecting a speed before or after on a Kiev RF
> >camera?
> >
> >Mrac
> >
> >msmall@roanoke.infi.net

From Kiev88 Mailing List:
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001
From: "jay javier" nikitakat@edsamail.com.ph
Subject: Re: Re: Kiev-88 Lunacies

marc,

i haven't read the repair manual yet... but something BAD does happen when the K88's shutter setting is changed before setting...don't know what happens if this done, but it HAPPENS. got a BUSTED K88 to prove it. this is what the guys at KievUSA asked when I com- plained to them about my defective K88CB.

jay

From Kiev88 Mailing List;
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000
From: mark hahn markhahn2000@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: K88 MLU

by all accounts the cloth shutter is more prone to problems, but somewhat quiter (they are still fairly loud cameras). MLU is a personal choice... I use mine hand-held so it wouldn't do me any good, but if you do lots of tripod work it may be worth it... If you really want cloth curtains I would also consider a Kiev 60... no, it doesn't look like a hassy, but it is a lot cheaper and handles better with a prism (if you want one) than the 88. I have both and like shooting the 60 way more than the 88... the 88 is just a lot cooler looking. As a simpler camera I trust the 60 much more than the 88 too, though I have not had a problem with either camera (knock on wood:).

mark

From Russian Camera List:
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001
From: "jay javier" nikitakat@edsamail.com.ph
Subject: Soviet camera names/ Trivia

Hello guys

Ever wondered what the names by which soviet cameras and lenses stood for?

Here's what I found out:

"Ljubitel" = amateur; "Zorkij"= far-sighted; "Iskra"= spark;

"Volna"= wave; "Mir"= peace; "Junost"= youth;

"Komsomolyets"=youth communist league (!); "Zarja"=glow;

"Drug"= friend;

"Industar" is probably in honour of industry (very socialist!), and many lenses are named after celestial bodies like "Jupiter", "Orion", and "Merkuri" or "Kometa".

"Arsat" is probably derived from "ARSenal",which makes the Kievs (like "Nikkor" of Nikon?).

Incidentally, has anyone heard of "Merkuri" and "Kometa"? Former is a wide angle lens and latter is an RF camera announced in the mid-50s.

The "KOMETA" had a multi-frame viewfinder, a built-in meter, and a form of primordial auto-exposure coupled lenses. Anyone heard or seen this? Was this ever produced?

The "Orion" 20mm lens was debuted with this camera. It is supposed to be FIRST WIDEST LENS ever produced for a 35mm camera, at the time when the 21mm was the widest the West had.

Jay

www.edsamail.com

From Russian Camera Mailing List:
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001
From: "Per Backman" pbackman@algonet.se
Subject: Re: Soviet camera names/ Trivia

jay javier wrote:

>Hello guys
>
>Ever wondered what the names by which soviet cameras and lenses stood for?
>
>Here's what I found out:
>
>    "Ljubitel" = amateur;
>
>"Zorkij"= far-sighted;

More like sharpsighted or attentional

>"Iskra"= spark;
>
>    "Volna"= wave; "Mir"= peace; "Junost"= youth;
>
>    "Komsomolyets"=youth communist league (!);

A member of the Communist Youth Union

>"Zarja"=glow;

Rather Dawn

>    "Drug"= friend;

Sokol=Falcon
Rassvet= The time before dawn (rise of the sun)
Smena= Well, the main meaning is change, it can be a gang of workmen etc.
Vilija= probably a river, that flows through Vilnius (Wilno) from White Russia.
Chajka=Seagull
Vesna=Spring
Voschod=East
Sputnik=Someone who travels along with you
Almaz=Diamond
Junkor=Young correspondent
Fotokor=Photocorrespondent

Per B.
http://hem.fyristorg.com/pbackman/

From Russian Camera Mailing List:
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001
From: "Pim Stouten" pim.s@gmx.net
Subject: Re: Soviet camera names/ Trivia

And don't forget the FED, named after Feliks Edmundovich Dzherzhinsky, the founder of the CheKa, the later KGB....

From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 27 Jan 2001
Subject: Re: Hasselblad 200 shutter in 2000 body?

I have not seen the Hassy 200 cameras and except for wrnkling do not know of the defects in the Hassy 2000 shutters.

However, when the Kiev cameras copied the Hassy 1000F the mistake was copying the metal blind shutter. In the Kiev cameras this shutter at two points has to endure a 90 degree turn at the corners- this turn puts great stress on the camera gears in winding the shutter as well as releasing it. I noticed this 15 years ago and suggested that the Arsenal factory replace the metal shutter with rubberized cloth. They are just now doing my old idea. However as the Kiev does not have an instant return mirror (as Hassy does) to cover the shutter curtain - the curtain can have a hole burned into it in bright sunlight. I know this is possible as I did it to a Pentacon 6 quite by accident.

Hassy 2000 cameras I have examined seemed to work just fine - I would never replace the metal curtains with cloth curtains unless there is some essential defect to this design which prompted Hassy to go to cloth curtains in their newer models.

- Sam Sherman

From Kiev88 Mailing List;
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001
From: "jay javier" nikitakat@edsamail.com.ph
Subject: Re: Re: Life of Kiev 88...

I have three Kiev 88s, (two standard, 1 CM). Two are broken for the same reasons. The first broke because the shutter was changed before cocking, and the second, for the same cause but by a different person. The third remaining body is touched by noone else but me. I run about 8 to 10 rolls through the K88 weekly and shoot commercial work with it. The instructions say that the K88 is for amateur use, which is probably the only thing there which I don't follow!

Jay

From Medium Format Mailing List:
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001
From: kelvin kelvinlee@pacific.net.sg
To: medium-format@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [medium-format] New Member/question

It depends. Are you loading it correctly? Is this complaint the same for all the backs? If so, chances are you're doing it wrong.

I assume you are using the old-style backs from your descript.

As such, before loading film ensure there is not number in the counter window. Remove insert the usual way .

Once insert is out, you have to remember to turn the lever/knob which you used to pull out the insert to the "closed" position so that you can thread the film through the gutter which opens up on the left side (filmplane facing you).

Then, load film in and turn the film leader till you see the "start" or whatever that manufacturer uses (I assume you know some bits in detail so I'll gloss over it). Now, turn that same knob/lever again in the opp. direction and this gutter now closes, clamping the film down. Re-insert contraption into filmback and close the lock to sercure it. By doing so, if you recall correctly, inside the gutter opens up and the film is free to move.

*whew* ...first part over.

Now, open rear window and the racheted kbob clockwise till you see frame "1". Upon doing so, turn this same knob counter-clockwise and "1" will pop up on the counter.

You are ready to go. Takes a bit of practice.

A good alternative is to get the NT style filmbacks, about US$50 on ebay at the moment. They load like Bronicas and are much easier to use.

At egroups, there is also a Kiev 88 forum - look for it. As well as a forum at Delphi reports.

you wrote:

>Hello Everyone,
>My name is Keith and I have just joined the group.  I have a Kiev 88
>with an 80mm Arsat lens and a 2x converer.  I have somehow managed to
>aquire 5 backs fot it as well [not counting the polaroid]
>I have been looking for a M/F group for a while so that I can learn
>how to get the best out of this tempremenal beast that i am growing
>to love.
>To start the ball rolling; I have a question.  The wind on knob on my
>Kiev cocks the shutter, but only winds the film on 2/3 of the way.
>She has been in and out of hospital with this complaint several
>times, but it always returns. I have no option but to check the back
>each time and complete the wind manually. Is this normal for the
>breed or is she just being awkward?
>
>Keith

From Kiev 88 Mailing List;
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000
From: robert svensson term@chl.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: Kiev 88TTL Batteries

Hi guys!

I had the same problem w/ my batteries. The advices given gere are fine. However, I would like to add one advice: DO NOT PUT THE BATTERIES "NAKED" IN THE COMPARTMENT IF THIS HAS GOT WALLS OF BARE METAL!!! If you do, you will have a nice short circuit, and the batteries will fly to the Batterie's Heaven in less than a minute except for the innermost one! It is not a problem to use other batteries as long as the sum of the cell voltages is the same as the original (factory stacked) battery. Take the advices and use a piece if plastic or film as an insulator and put a small metal whatever-object-U-can-find as a filler if the batteries are too thin.

The wrinkled ball of household Al foil is fine. A piece of electrical wire formed into a small ball is also fine. Some spring action of the filler is good.

The one of you who has got a K88 w/ Pentacon mount: It is a good choice, since U can use K60 lenses as well as Pentacon Dresden lenses. You will find very good lenses from both sources!! The mount has a ring attached to the camera and the lens is not turned at all. The ring jams the lens. The lens has a pin which goes into a notch in the body. Just turn the ring and LIFT off the lens.

You will not be disappointed with the picture quality of these systems!

All the best,

Rob

you wrote:

>Daryl,
>You obviously got caught in the battery switch era. Try cutting up a plastic
>35mm film can, which should just wrap around the stacked batteries, and take
>up the space on top of the batteries with a small ball of aluminum foil-
>should work fine. I have a 1990 prism with similar controls, but it takes
>the standard LR-44 batteries with no problem, though the diameter of the
>compartment is a bit large. Works fine, though.
>Kiev/USA does sell an adapter, BUT- you really don't want to spend $40 for
>it- really!
>Best wishes,
>Kevin
>
>Daryl Webb wrote:
>
>> Freinds, I have what appears to be an older TTL prism.  I have thries
>> three of the recommended batteries but they rattle around loose in
>> the compartment.  Is there a sleeve or am I using the wrong
>> batteries?  If it's any help, the serial number is 855420.  From the
>> back, on the left side is the on/off dial with an inverted "V" and a
>> red dot and a green dot above.  Any help is appreciated.

Dr. Robert Svensson, Assoc. Prof.
term@chl.chalmers.se

From: fotoralf@gmx.de (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001
Subject: Re: Kiev Lens mount

Thom tomlyons@melbpc.org.au wrote:

> Just out of curiosity, other than being able to use the lenses on both
> bodies is there any advantage of the Kiev 60 lens mount over the
> cheaper type B mount on the older Kiev 88's?

The main difference is the available choice of lenses. The K88 mount only accepts the lenses made by Arsenal, the K60 or rather P6 mount accepts lenses made by Arsenal, Zeiss Jena, Schneider, Meyer G"rlitz and Hartblei - on last count a total of some 40 different lenses.

Ralf

...and now over to our friend eMeL for the usual round of Zeiss bashing.

--
Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - K"ln/Cologne, Germany
coming soon: http://www.free-photons.de

[Ed. note: thanks to Sam Sherman for supplying these tips on the Kiev and Salyut Cameras!]
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001
From: "S. Sherman" flexaret@sprynet.com
To: Robert Monaghan rmonagha@post.cis.smu.edu
Subject: Re: 400MM f6.3 - More for Bronica - Slightly OT

Re- Kiev 88/Salyut.

Since getting this Salyut - doing some experimenting with it - as I mentioned had many Kiev 88 models years back.

How to sight through back of camera - since one cannot easily use groundglass on the back unless you get such an attachment (is made) - but then you don't get the ability to test with specific backs in place -

Cut a piece of Wax Paper to about the width, or a little less, of a roll of 120 film. As long as needed to wrap around the film insert portion of the film back and tape in place with masking tape near where the rolls of film go. Then put insert in back.

Set shutter to "B", release shutter and hold open- and sight through opening in back where you see the numbers on the film backing paper.

Now you can sight through the film plane to check focus - be careful not to have masking tape on the film plane where it might get caught on the shutter curtains.

Best,

Sam

...

[Ed. note: Special thanks (again!) to Sam Sherman for sharing these interesting notes about Kiev cameras and lenses, esp. the earlier models!]
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001
From: "S. Sherman" flexaret@sprynet.com
To: rmonagha@post.cis.smu.edu
Subject: KIEV 80

Over the years I have had much experience with Kiev 88, Kiev 60 and Kiev 6C.

I was involved with people originally importing these cameras in the 1980s and at that time there were lots of defectives. The main problem came from the lack of quality modern lubricants at the Arsenal factory and the use of steel wind and slow speed and other parts.

These steel parts were roughly finished and underlubricated if at all. Some of the better finished models would work and some of the rougher finished ones quickly jammed up. This could also extend to Kiev (Contax style) 35MM rangefinder cameras too.

In the USSR I guess they expected elbow grease and constant winding to polish the gears instead of lubricating grease.

I found that usually to be true as Kiev 6C cameras which were very worn externally from a lot of use had the smoothest film winds that I encountered on 60 or 6C models.

Today I got in an earlier version of the Kiev 88 for experimenting.

This camera had a lot of use, and although it has the steel gears it winds smoothly.

The model I got was Salyut-C (Salute model C) - the second or third Soviet Hassy copy.

This model was from the late 1970s, was sold in the US as Kiev 80, in England as Zenith 80 and around the world as Zenit 80. There is no difference between this model and the early Kiev 88 models- only this camera has the close focusing 90MM f2.8 Vega lens instead of the 80MM f2.8 lens commonly on the Kiev 88. The 90MM lens was also the standard lens on the Kiev 6C.

In my files I have a letter of 1978 from Anthony Koclanes of Anthony's Camera Exchange and Repair in St. Louis, Mo. He was an early advocate of the Kiev 80 cameras and advertised in Shutterbug and claimed superiority for their lenses.

To quote from his letter:

" This lens (90MM) is extremely good. It is so good it even puts the Zeiss lenses on the Pentacon 6 to shame. I have gotten negatives that are crystal clear without a bit of aberration & haze. They have made beautiful crisp 35" x 35" blowups."

I don't know if Anthony is still around, but he was certainly an advocate for this equipment early on. Ivor Matanle has numerous excellent photos in at least one of his books taken with Zenith 80.

The Kiev 88 in the late 1980s was improved with brass gears replacing the steel gears and these first such cameras were generally more reliable than earlier ones (and later ones). The new model had a wind knob with notches around its perimeter instead of the hill and dale knob of the earlier models.

In my collection I found I still have the Kilfitt adapter for Hasselblad 1000F and taking the 39MM basic lenses. It fits perfectly on the Salyut-C and the 150MM Kilar focuses well. I will be experimenting with this camera and the Kilar lenses too.

Best,

Sam

From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 15 Mar 2001
Subject: Re: Kiev or Hartblei ?

Re- Kiev 88

I can think of no other camera in the history of photography up to date which has had to be re-built before it can work properly. That says it all.

I have 20 years of experience with those cameras. They have to be re-designed by the factory and made with better quality control. Its that simple.

The shutter speed setting knob has to be changed from an ancient drop in pin design to a regular click stop knob and made apart from the wind knob/crank.

That will eliminate 40% of the problems.

Next- I have not looked at the new NT backs - they may be an improvment. But, many of the original older backs are defective and put too much needless drag on the main wind system, if they work properly at all - at least 30% of the problems.

Then for the final 30% - the new individual wind system could be built around a planetary gear reduction system - requiring more turns to deliver the same torque - perhaps two turns instead of the present one.

FYI - It was my suggestion to the factory 15 years ago to put in cloth curtains, that is now being done - as the metal curtains cause still further strain on the wind system.

I am not against the Kiev 88 - only feel that too many of the wrong improvements are now being made, when the basic design is the problem.

From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 15 Mar 2001
Subject: Re: Kiev or Hartblei ?

That walnut-crunching sound of winding a Kiev 88, is a great explanation of a well known problem in the making.

Yes, some of the Salyut-C models are very good and I am experimenting with one at the present time. These cameras are basically the same camera as the Kiev 88. were sold as the Kiev 80 and in the UK as the Zenith 80. Many are still working today 25-30 years after their manufacture. Somebody claimed these were hand made cameras made to a higher precision than the average Kiev 88. I cannot say that it so, but it might be.

In the late 1980s the Kiev 88 was improved with brass slow speed gears replacing steel slow speed gears. These later cameras are indicated by a slotted design around the wind knob (like the current K88) as opposed to the hill and dale knobs on the Salyut. A good used Kiev from around 1988 which works well, might be a better bet than a recent one.

The Salyut-C I have is from 1978 and works pretty well. It came with the 90MM f2.8 close focusing lens, which has some advantages over the more modern 80MM lens. The problems with this system are all with the backs. I will be modifying or replacing them. Of course, enen with film in a good back there is still too much drag on the wind. With film in a good Bronica S2A the camera winds as smoothly as with no film.

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: Nhat Nguyen nnguyen@gloss.com
Date: Sat Apr 14 2001
[1] Re: Kiev 88CM a great improvement

One thing to note about the 88CM is that not all of the East German Zeiss Jena lenses mount properly.

For more details on which ones or why, check out the Kiev Report forum over at Delphi.

rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
From: "Q.G. de Bakker" qnu@worldonline.nl
Date: Sat Apr 14 2001
[1] Re: kiev88 repair

...

Brenner Foto Versand (http://www.brenner-foto.de) sells a book called "Kiev-88/88TTL Reparatur Handbuch" (DM 44.80). I don't know the book myself, but perhaps you will find it can help.

From Kiev88 Mailing List:
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001
From: Stephen Castello scastello@cfl.rr.com
Subject: Re: 220 backs?

At one time there was a seller on ebay that had them. The seller stated that something like only 200 were made. Haven't seen anything on ebay recently.

Stephen

JeffClarkPhoto@cs.com wrote:

>Is there anything available in the way of 220 backs for the 88? I've got  a
>feeling that there isn't unless I get creative with a Hassy back.
>Thanks,
>Jeff.

From Kiev 88 Mailing List;
Date: Sat, 12 May 2001
From: Bill Brady wmbrady@olg.com
Subject: Re: portrait lens

WAYNE Wrote:

>Can anyone recommend a portrait lens of about 200 or 250 MM. for my kiev
>88 and where to look for it?

http://www.moscowgifts.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store;_Code=Mos cowGifts&Category;_Code=003

Lowest prices direct from the source. Takes about a week.

http://www.russianplaza.com/

Good guy but I have not actually ordered from him as Kievcamera is closer.

http://www.kievcamera.com/index.html

I highly recommend Kiev Camera. Mike Fourman is great to do business with. Tell him what you want, he may have something used at a great price. Actually, I suggest the same for all three sources as the inventory varies.

Avoid KievUSA!!!

I highly recommend that you go with a 120mm Vega. If you really need 200mm+, get a 2x teleconverter. Why get the 120? It will save you a bundle on filters as it uses the same size (62mm) as the 80mm and it's a *great* Portrait lens. It's also very compact, and as you may know a MF kit gets BIG fast.

Wm. "Bill" Brady, Harwood MD 38Y51'30"N 76Y41'00"W - 7 cloudy nights predicted.

From Kiev88 Mailing List:
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001
From: flexaret@sprynet.com
Subject: Re: Re: kiev 88 shutter problem

Kelvin,

Most likely it is underlubrication of the the two main shutter gears.

Read my posts about how to solve this and the related posts on:

http://www.delphi.com

at the Kiev Report (you have to register for this - easy) and check the sections on Kiev 88 and ordering from Hartblei etc. and other sections in the archive.

Best,

Sam

Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001
From: Nataliya og Ole Kristian Thomassen okris@bigfoot.com
To: rmonagha@post.cis.smu.edu
Subject: Kyiv 88 cameras

HI

I do not know if this e-mail will reach you, because your page has not been updatet for some time... Anyway, I surfed on in to your interesting Kiev 88 site. Interesting. Now I would only like to tell you that the factory in Kyiv has a small magazine (I have been there) selling new Kyiv 88 cameras and first class lenses (Good selection). A camera with a first class lens will cost you only 180 usd or less. For this price you could buy a ticket to Kyiv, buy the camera and travel back home to the USA for less then you have to pay for only the camera in your country! And have an incredible holliday included. Used cameras are hard (impossible) to find.

Well, maybe you have new holiday plans?

Yours Sincerely
O. K. Thomassen, Norway
okris@bigfoot.com

From Kiev 88 Mailing List:
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001
From: Miguel Gonzalez omgphoto@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Re: Kiev 88 90 degree prism

Hi Jeff,

Well, the winding mechanism was beefed up by kiev usa for $150 and Mike completely replaced my old kiev innerds with CPAM shutter, mirror lock up and a wonderful job of flocking all for $40. All together, I Hasselbladed it for around $190. You can't beat it considering I only paid $99 for the kit used (1980). Mike also sold me a 1999 kiev88m body which means it has a CPAM shutter, flocking, mirror lockup and a tripod adapter for $199. If you only want a CPAM shutter, you should send it to Mike. If you want a crank too, send it to kiev usa only for the crank and have Mike still do the shutter. It's a lot cheaper that way. Otherwise Kiev USA will charge you about $500. YIKES.

There you have it.

Talk to you soon,

Miguel

From Kiev 88 Mailing List:
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001
From: Miguel Gonzalez omgphoto@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Re: Kiev 88 90 degree prism

GEES!!

Sorry Jeff,

I rambled on and on and didn't tell you what they did to my crank.

They took out the advance stem and replaced it with something tougher (i'm not sure what)and they totally replaced the shutter speed mechanism also with materials that can handle the stress the extra torque of the crank adds to the camera.

All in all, it was worth the money. My 1999 body still has the old style advance knob and I have to say that there is a big difference. I'm spoiled to the older body with the crank but since all of the guts are new now, only the outer shell is old. Everything inside is new materials.

once again

see ya

Miguel

From Kiev88 Mailing List;
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001
From: flexaret@sprynet.com
Subject: Kiev problems

Looking at the Delphi/Kiev forum, I realized that many Kiev 88 users have various types of problems.

I also realized it has been for this reason that I have suggested new medium format users might be better off with the more reliable Bronica S2A system.

I think the Kiev 88 types appeal to people who like to solve various camera problems themselves with unique solutions, just as I have done with Bronica S2A problems, and some do exist, but nothing compared to Kiev 88.

One problem on Delphi was the 180MM Sonnar not fitting in the P6 mount of the Kiev 88CM and one user machining the locking ring down to make it fit. While I have had some problems with this same mount, my earlier model 180MM Sonnar does fit and now that I have adjusted its stopdown pin, does work on the 88CM. I would never advise machining down this locking ring as it will weaken its strength, which is important.

Another user having "banding" light and dark photo areas, on 88CM models with the cloth shutter, was advised that the cloth shutter design was at fault and even Hartblei was coming to that conclusion.

My opinion, the gearing and design of the camera was for the metal shutter curtains. More design modification may be needed to get the cloth curtains to work uniformly. I have had some slightly lighter areas in some photos, but I attribute this to the main wind gears being underlubricated. Hans Roskam's (Netherlands) technician claims that eccentric (not totally rounded ) slow speed gears cause this problem. I don't think so.

The slow speed mechanism turns smoothly based on the governor system (fan paddles) which momentum keeps the gears spinning. These slow speed gears turn during B and high speeds, which they do not regulate. A design modification should have them only turn on speeds from 1/15 to 1/2 sec. The other speeds can be accurate depending on the size of the slit between the first and second curtain only. And 1/30th speed can be accurate based on being the fastest speed in which the slit is fully open allowing "X" flash sync.

FLASH SYNC. FIX - on Kiev 88 style Salyut-C. The flash did not work on one such camera. I thought that the internal contacts were not making contact - not hard to fix, but under the inside bottom wall. Instead, I cleaned the outside PC contact - in its center and outside surfaces with a tiny round file - to clean away the oxidation on an old camera. The flash sync promptly worked perfectly.

- Sam Sherman

From Kiev88 Mailing List;
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001
From: flexaret@sprynet.com
Subject: Kiev Tests etc.

Re: SALYUT-C (Kiev 88 type) - tests:

I have exchanged the old waist level finder for the new, improved model with better magnifier... and using the NT back on this camera I shot a series of test photos on a roll of Kodak T400Cn (c-41 process). Unlike the tests with the earlier Kiev 88 type backs, using the NT back - every photo came out sharp exactly as focused, using the 300MM f5.6 Kilfitt tele and the 90MM f2.8 Vega normal lens. I intend to only use this back with this camera.

Re- Neckstrap - regarding my complaints that Salyut-C and Kiev 88CM neckstraps had the potential for the strap holders slipping off the camera lugs - today I bought a vastly improved neckstrap- the OP/TECH USA "Pro Strap" for Hasselblad. This fits either the larger lugs on the Salyut-C or the smaller ones on the Kiev 88CM and locks firmly on the lugs without a chance of slipping off and the camera falling.

Salyut and Kiev lens mounts and the Industar 80MM f2.8 normal lens: All of the Salyut and Kiev 88 type cameras (except those with the Pentacon 6 mount) have the Hasselblad 1600F/1000F screw mount. The early Salyut cameras have a different stopdown mechanism than the Salyut-C and the Kiev 88. The early lenses with this mechanism include the 80MM f2.8 Industar and a 65MM wideangle which have a cocking lever to cock the lens to open aperture.

The stopdown mechanism in the camera then stops the lens down to shooting aperture, but it must be manually re-opened. I got a nice 80MM f2.8 Industar lens inexpensively which works like this and would not fit on my Salyut-C, which takes the later Kiev 88 type lenses. Although the screw mount is the same, the stopdown pin gets caught on the lens lock and although the mount screw thread is the same, the lens cannot fit.. As I want to use this lens, I modified it by removing the stopdown pin and the internal flat coil spring. This has created a lens which will fit on my Salyut-C and which can be operated "stop down" by using the cocking handle to open the lens to open aperture and then flip it to stopdown position for the pre-selected aperture. Since I have heard this is a very sharp lens, I am anxious to use it without having to buy a first model Salyut.

- Sam Sherman

Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001
From: "eMeL" badbatz99@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev Question

Thom tomlyons@melbpc.org.au wrote

> I have watched for a bit about what's happening with the Kiev line.
> Seems like US importers are working on what's coming in.
>
> Can anyone give an indication that KievUSA and the other importers are
> no longer selling junk and that you can now depend on these cameras?

If by "depend" you mean putting food on the table with Kiev as the only camera system - the answer is a resounding no, re-worked Kiev or not. OTOH if you shoot with Kiev only occasionally for fun or - for instance with specialist lenses which are prohibitively expensive in other MF system - sure, get it... It's fun! You *may* gat a quality camera, lens or even both, but don't expect reliability. Do expect *huge* sample-to-sample variations, though. That's where the "re-workers" come in: they supposedly re-work each and every Kiev camera before delivery. Of course, the re-working is costly and some aspect of the camera cannot be re-worked at all.

IMO if you decide to buy one, get an ironclad money-back guarantee from the seller...

Michael

Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001
From: "Vladimir Ho Santiago" nobody@nospam.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev Question

There's absolutely _no_ evidence that factory Kiev 88's produced in either 2000 or 2001 have made _any_ progress in quality. Quality remains very very spotty. Some dealers have to go to great lengths to verify the basic functional operation of brand new factory Kievs.

The same problems plague the current Kiev 88 product line that have plagued earlier Kiev 88:

- erratic shutters--often unusable at 250th or higher (this may cause wavy banding in open areas, such as pictures with a lot of sky).

- unreliable flash sync at its "lofty" sync speed of 30th of second. (prone to failure in short order).

- massive internal vibrations at some speeds.

- walnut crushing film advance sound on some models.

- crap, lint, between the elements. Some defendants of the Kiev claim that they can see no impact, but why should sloppy-happy assembly be acceptable?

Oh, did I mention that the standard 80mm leaks stray light if you focus at or near the minimum distance?

- film advance problems and light leaks in the magazine.

- meter prisms that are traditionally 3-4 stops off; once calibrated, some people claim their meter prisms are perfect; others experience non-linear metering results. Blechhh.

If you're a hobbiest, you may very well have fun with a Kiev 88, _but_ the number 1 prerequisite is that you _must_ use it with a sense of humor. The number 2 prerequisite is that you must not rely or depend on it. For more information, see prerequisite number 1.

That said, if "all of the stars are aligned", the Kiev can take very fine photos.

In the short term, there's a good chance you'll experience failure or problems. Some of the dealers are very obliging in taking care of problems within the sometimes not-so-generous warranty period--anywhere from 30 days to 1 year. (In some cases, the same dealer will quote different warranty terms to different people.)

In the long term, you will have wished that you bought a good second-hand Japanese medium format camera, or maybe a new entry-level Mamiya, Pentax, or Bronica. (I'm assuming that you are price sensitive.) That's _clearly_ that pattern of many of those who have purchased Kiev 60's or 88's who have participated in the Kiev forum on Delphi. For example, a common question posed may go like, "What adaptor do I need to mount my Kiev lenses on a Pentax or Mamiya?" Yes, the grass really is greener on the other side of the fence!

Been there. Done that.

Regards, VHS

"Thom" tomlyons@melbpc.org.au wrote

> I have watched for a bit about what's happening with the Kiev line.
> Seems like US importers are working on what's coming in.
>
> Can anyone give an indication that KievUSA and the other importers are
> no longer selling junk and that you can now depend on these cameras?
>
> THOM

Date: 21 Jul 2001
From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev Question

I have been a longtime critic of Kiev 88 cameras. However, I have had good luck with Kiev 6C and Kiev 60 cameras, and was involved with selling many of the latter which were mostly in fine operating and physical condition. Years back, the many Kiev 88 cameras I had been involved with had a very high defective rate. At the time I had not conducted a study of this and did not know why. Now I do.

Recently I was interested to obtain some variations of these cameras and have obtained, studied and adjusted Salyut-C, Kiev 88 (standard 1985 model), Kiev 88CM.

I have found that the Salyut-C was a very well made model.

The recent Kiev 88CM is a well made model.

The Kiev 88 ('85) had most of the problems and when I got it, did not work smoothly.

My study revealed that all of these cameras were reasonably well made, but poorly or under-lubricated. The same or worse goes for the old-style backs. The new NT backs that I have are fine, and a great improvement in ease of use over the old backs. The old under-lubricated backs were able to jam up the cameras and no doubt this happened many times. I was able to adjust and lubricate the above cameras and several backs so that all are working fine, without a major stripdown to do any of the work.

I think these problems are found in the majority of Kiev cameras having some repair problem. They attest to poor lubricants available, poor quality control and final finishing, not as much to bad overall manufacturing.

One the cameras are lubed/adjusted, the lenses are quite good and the combination is capable of fine work. How much heavy duty they will stand is another story, but many of the Salyut-C cameras have had hard use and are still found to be working well 30 years after they were made. That is a good record for any camera. In my opinion, these cameras can generally be an improvement over the Hasselblad 1000F from which they evolved.

- Sam Sherman

Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001
From: "The Laughing Monk" grimnir@postmaster.co.uk
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev Question

"Vladimir Ho Santiago" nobody@nospam.com schrieb im Newsbeitrag

> There's absolutely _no_ evidence that factory Kiev 88's produced in  either
> 2000 or 2001 have made _any_ progress in quality. Quality remains very very
> spotty. Some dealers have to go to great lengths to verify the basic
> functional operation of brand new factory Kievs.
>
> The same problems plague the current Kiev 88 product line that have plagued
> earlier Kiev 88:
>
> - erratic shutters--often unusable at 250th or higher (this may cause  wavy
> banding in open areas, such as pictures with a lot of sky).
> - unreliable flash sync at its "lofty" sync speed of 30th of second. (prone
> to failure in short order).
> - massive internal vibrations at some speeds.
> - walnut crushing film advance sound on some models.
> - crap, lint, between the elements. Some defendants of the Kiev claim  that
> they can see no impact, but why should sloppy-happy assembly be acceptable?
> Oh, did I mention that the standard 80mm leaks stray light if you focus  at
> or near the minimum distance?
> - film advance problems and light leaks in the magazine.
> - meter prisms that are traditionally 3-4 stops off; once calibrated,  some
> people claim their meter prisms are perfect; others experience  non-linear
> metering results. Blechhh.
>
> If you're a hobbiest, you may very well have fun with a Kiev 88, _but_  the
> number 1 prerequisite is that you _must_ use it with a sense of humor.  The
> number 2 prerequisite is that you must not rely or depend on it. For  more
> information, see prerequisite number 1.
>
> That said, if "all of the stars are aligned", the Kiev can take very  fine
> photos.
>
> In the short term, there's a good chance you'll experience failure or
> problems. Some of the dealers are very obliging in taking care of  problems
> within the sometimes not-so-generous warranty period--anywhere  from 30 days
> to 1 year. (In some cases, the same dealer will quote different warranty
> terms to different people.)
>
> In the long term, you will have wished that you bought a good  second-hand
> Japanese medium format camera, or maybe a new entry-level Mamiya,  Pentax, or
> Bronica. (I'm assuming that you are price sensitive.) That's _clearly_ that
> pattern of many of those who have purchased Kiev 60's or 88's who have
> participated in the Kiev forum on Delphi. For example, a common question
> posed may go like, "What adaptor do I need to mount my Kiev lenses on a
> Pentax or Mamiya?" Yes, the grass really is greener on the other side of the
> fence!
>
> Been there. Done that.
>
> Regards, VHS
>
>
> "Thom" tomlyons@melbpc.org.au wrote 
> > I have watched for a bit about what's happening with the Kiev line.
> > Seems like US importers are working on what's coming in.
> >
> > Can anyone give an indication that KievUSA and the other importers are
> > no longer selling junk and that you can now depend on these cameras?
> >
> > THOM
>

Hello Folks !

I am a professional photographer and do a lot of indoors-work and outdoors as well. I rely on BOTH systems - the Kiev 88 AND the Mamiya RB67ProS.The only difference in indoors work is, that the Kiev is a bit limited in lenses. But : the sharpness is quite the same. And NEVER I experienced any problems of shutter speed or problems with light leaks of the magazines using the Kiev - the magazines of the Mamiya had some serious problems... The Kiev is quite handy for outdoor-shooting. A Mamiya RB with a 250mm-lens one cannot use without a tripod if really sharp pics are wanted...

well this has been the two-pence wisdom of a professional working under quite extreme circumstances... (Mongolia and Siberia e.g.)

PS.: the most reliable photo-equipment is STILL the Linhof KardanGL 4 x 5 inch...

kind regards

Soslan Khan Aliatasi

Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001
From: "John Stewart see REAL email address in message."
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev Question

> I am a professional photographer and do a lot of indoors-work and outdoors
 > as well. I rely on BOTH systems - the Kiev 88 AND the Mamiya RB67ProS.

My understanding is that the cameras from the factories were sent our essentially "unajusted" and that the local shops in the former USSR tweaked them up. The cameras imported into the UK were literally taken apart and rebuilt by TO&E;, which is why many UK users have a higher level of satisfaction. (I actually have an old UK repair manual from TO&E; that shows step-by-step modifications to the old 35mm Zenit E to make it better!)

But now that the cameras are coming from all kinds of sources, the question is which one are worked on and which ones are not.

And, of course, just because one person is happy with their camera does not insure that others will have the same exerience.

John

From Kiev88 Mailing List:
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001
From: Kevin Kalsbeek krkk@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: The old "Cloth vs. Metal" shutters

Jeff,

I bought a VRN (Hartblei) body with cloth curtains. The shutter speeds went sour very quickly, and I had Hartblei replace them with the black metal ones, which work fine except at 1/000 sec, which I never use anyway- yes, I have a shutter tester.

According to an acquaintance that has a friend that works at Hartblei, they do NOT recommend the cloth curtains.

They are supposedly thicker and heavier than the metal curtains, which strains the shutter springs.

According to Hans Roskam, the cloth curtains can bind in the track, and it's a pain to fix.

Personally, in this application, I think the curtains stretch, but please note, before you object, that the Kiev 60 was specifically designed around the cloth curtains, while the Kiev 88 was not!

I would definitely not recommend the retrofitting of cloth curtains. Some folks have had good luck, but many others........ It is unlikely that the cloth curtains will give more accurate slow speeds. An overhaul would probably have more effect, as lubrication seems to be the key, as Sam Sherman says. As far as noise goes, they didn't prove silent enough to be worth the hassle, and I will avoid them in the future, but have fun!

Kevin

From Russian Camera Mailing List;
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001
From: "Kelvin" kelvinlee@pacific.net.sg
Subject: Re: SALYUT question still open

I would add to that. If you prefer to stay with the K88-B mount for whatever reason...

The best, IMHO, is to get a Kiev 88 body serial number #80- to #86- . These older K88 were built before serious cost-cutting measures which took place towards the end of the cold war.

I have a 1986 K88 body and a 1999 K88 body. The workmanship on the earlier piece is less shoddy. Heck, on the defective 1999 piece I returned earlier... the thickness of the material was visably different on both sides of the body!

However, take note that if buying such old K88,be prepared to spend a little on getting them serviced.

...

From Russian Camera Mailing List;
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001
From: "Parlin 44" parlin44@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Re: SALYUT question still open

Now it's my turn:

I bought Salyut-C (79xxx or 80xxx serial number) fr Lemiu upon recommendation of a member of this group (the Salyut not the Lemiu part). Cameras from these production year are supposedly better built and finish (from the K88) with automatic f setting. I've never used K88 to compare but true enough experience has been positive so far - as positive as you can get with Russians, means "standard" debugging was still required like internal chamber flocking, sealing the edges and joins for lightleakages etc. I also had to replace the focusing screen with a brighter ground glass with split prism (US$25), the original is rather dim with no prisms. Now I hv a fairly debugged Salyut-C. So, no, mine's definitely NOT a paper weight.

Oh, the older Volna 90/2.8 is a nice contrasty, crispy lens, some claim "better" (subjectively) than the newer Arsat 80/2.8 of K88.

parlin

....

From Kiev88 Mailing List;
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001
From: mark hahn markhahn2000@yahoo.com
Subject: adjusting Arsat

ok, while we are discussing problems... how do you adjust your focus scale/infinitiy stop on the Arsat fisheye? Mine is pretty far off... of course it doesn't really matter much when you are stopped down... but it is still annoying.

thanks,

mark

PS also, no one has mentioned how to get at the ground glass screws in a K88. I'm sure it is just a matter of taking off the waistlevel finder... but I haven't figured out the trick to doing that yet.

Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001
From: "bdmphoto" bdmphoto@email.msn.com
Subject: Re: adjusting Arsat

Hi Mark

very easy:

1 Remove the rubber focusing ring from the lens

2 Put the lens on infinity

3 Unscrew 6-or 8 tiny screws located on the the focusing metal ring. Do not loose the. After the focusing ring will loose turn it back( I recommend to put it between infinity and 2) and put all screws back

4 Install rubber ring and you will be fine. If not , you have to turn focusing ring more

Regards
Mike
770-409-0026

From Kiev88 Mailing List;
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001
From: flexaret@sprynet.com
Subject: Re: adjusting Arsat

Mark,

Not everybody should be adjusting everything.

There is much I can do, but much I leave to professional repairmen.

Focus alignment on Kiev 88 can be done by any good camera repairman, even if he cannot open the camera shutter mechanism and would not touch it otherwise.

That said-

To adjust focus alignment on K88 -

Remove waist level finder and be careful of shutter curtain!!

Unscrew 4 screws at the corners of the groundglass screen.

Remove ground glass screen by turning camera over and let it fall in your hand - the side that goes up has the raised center circle.

NOW - under where the groundglass had been are 4 screw posts in the corners. Adjust these up or down evenly (the same for each) based on what you need to do.

Replace the groundglass and the 4 screws with their clips.

If these concepts are not crystal clear to you have a professional tech do this!!.

- Sam Sherman

P.S. If you are not careful and know what you are doing you can destroy this camera when only doing a simple job.

Date: 02 May 2001
From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: kiev88 repair

To work on the Kiev 88 you must have some camera repair skills and have repaired something before, otherwise you risk destroying the camera. Advise having a professional repair it.

Saying this, I continue-

Many of the transport problems are caused by the poorly made backs. If you remove the back and the camera will wind and release the shutter at all speeds properly - DO NOT TOUCH THE CAMERA. You might look around and find another back which works well - then there is nothing to repair. If the camera does not wind and release well with the back off - or if the second or closing curtain is slow. There is a simple fix with no disassembly.

Most of the Kiev 88 problems are either caused by the back - or the lack of lubrication on the two main shutter gears.

I will tell you how to remedy this, but if you overdo it this will cause a worse problem -

Remove the back and the lens - holding the camera pointing the lens mount away from you look down beyond the finder into the front opening of the camera - there on the right you will see the two unprotected main shutter wind/speed gears. Get some of the lightest watch or lubricating oil - preferably in a pin point oiler - put one TINY drop of oil into the top center of the stack of two gears and to the center BETWEEN the sandwich of the gears. Next, get a volatile solvent - like lighter fluid (this will spread the oil around) and put several drops of it into the same spots. Now wind and release the shutter about 50 to 100 times - the camera should work far smoother. You will note a great difference with nothin having been disassembled.

If the slow speeds do not work - if you are not getting a good 1/2 second or good 1/4 second this is another problem.

Good luck.

[Ed. note: thanks to Wilhelm Kaiser for sharing these notes on a major dealer and repairer...]
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001
From: Wilhelm Kaiser-Lindemann KaiserLindemann@gmx.de
To: rmonagha@mail.smu.edu
Subject: About Wiese-Photo, Hamburg, Germany

Dear Mr.Lau,

unfortunately the -for Germany and Middle-Europe- most interesting dealer of Kiev-items "Photo-Wiese" in Hamburg is momently in some difficulties: E-mails come back, business is stopped, dead telephone, etc.

Possible reasons:

1. He is changing his locations. (they are working like the bees, so I'm told)

2. "Photo Arsenal" in Nuremberg/Germany does not more make repairs himself, all repairs go to "Photo-Wiese"/Hamburg.

3. Other German big photo-stores overwhelm "Photo-Wiese" with repairs.

It is possible, that "Photo-Wiese" is momentarily his own victim of his good name of quality products and solid repairing!!! I belief that is also the reason for changing his locations (enlarging the entertainment [facility]??) - that man becomes more and more sympathic for me!

The new adress of "Photo-Wiese" is:

Moekesch/Wiese Fototechnik
Danzigerstrasse 47-49
D-20059 Hamburg
Germany

The double-house number shows to me that there is a real [interest in] enlarging his business. Best Wishes for him!!

Because I'm rather close living to Hamburg I'll walk to the new shop at next occasion. Perhaps I get some new informations.

Another interesting shop for middle and eastern Europe customers is www.moscowgifts.com. For example: Kiev 88CM-Kit for 489 US$. new. (Plus shipping)

I hope this information is interesting for your very good and informative homepage. Go on so, and all the best for you!

Wilhelm Kaiser

Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 
From: "S. Sherman" <flexaret@sprynet.com>, 
To: rmonagha@post.cis.smu.edu
Subject: Kiev and Misc.

Lately I have been continuing my experiments with Kiev 88 cameras.

Here are the results-

Salyut-C - works very smooth and nice with its 90MM lens. Am using it with the NT back
and the new Kiev 88 Waist Level finder. Just a really nice camera.

Kiev 88CM - Enjoy using this and it works with most of my P6/K6 lenses. Have a 30MM f3.5 Zodiak fisheye
(single coated) for over 10 years and am having excellent results with this on the 88CM.
Shot several rolls of Fujichrome 100 at a local carnival and got superb shots of ferris wheels, rides,
food stands and exhibits. Used your suggestion of Flatiron color labs and it was tops.

Kiev 88- (mid 80's model) Just winding and releasing the shutter and one metal curtain tore.
Have the body for sale cheap or am sending it to Mike Fourman who will replace the curtain for only $50.

so- bought a New Kiev 88 from Mike Fourman with metal curtains (new 2000 production) - excellent
camera with all speeds accurate. It came with a wind crank - some new weird model attached to the regular wind knob which just pulled off.  I sent the camera back to Mike and told him forget that crank design it will never work
and will eventually pull off or break. He replaced the crank and the wind knob with a new crank design similar to the one on the Kiev 88CM and sent the camera back even better lubed than before. Just now testing it - and the camera seems to work really well.

I have an 80MM f2.8 Industar lens and 65MM f3.5 wideangle lens both made for the first model Salyut which
has an odd latching stopdown hook device and you must cock each lens. As I don't have this early camera,
I removed the heavy coiled springs from each lens and stopdown hook (prevents it from mounting on normal K88)
and now I can use these on the K88 and Salyut-C as stopdown using the cocking lever as the stopdown lever.

Thats an overview.

Keep clicking.

Best,

Sam

From Russian Camera List:
Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 
From: tigerarm2000@yahoo.com
Subject: Number of Kiev88 users in China



Hi

Today I met the Kiev-88 repairman who is a professional camera
repairman and he is also an owenr of a small shop selling used photo
equiment mainly russian and Chinese. I bought the TK-2 A doubler from
him and he said he has never seen this before.

However, I asked how many Kiev88s he has repaired over the years and
he said more than 7,000. Each day he repares 5-6 of them. Some of the
broken pieces are from Taiwan.He said that he repaired almost all the
broken Kiev88s. This gives me some idea about how many Kiev88 users
in China. This does not include Kiev 60 users for Kiev 60 is a much
more reliable camera.

Zhang

From Kiev88 Mailing List:
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 
From: "Kelvin" <kelvinlee@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: Can a Kiev or Salut C uses (B) mounts run a "b" mount

You're better off buying a Kiev88CM , or a P6 body from Hartblei than
having it reworked.

No, there is no adaptor for P6 to K88 body. The other way around i.e.
K88 lens to P6 body, yes. Only in pre-set mode.

The reason being that the flange distance is too long on a P6 lens for
the K88 body.

Currently, I got a P6 biometar 80/2.8 cheap which I am hoping to remount
for my K88. Have to find time to go to a machine shop to get them to make 
a mount for me. Then, I will have to adjust the helicoid focus back about
another 4mm. It's not going to be easy, but it may be fun to try.
Certainly not cost effective, but just for fun!


I have seen CZK Flektogon 50/4 remounted for K88 from P6 on ebay
previously. 

> Hi guys: Its me again. Now, thanks to your help, I learned a little
> about the lens mounts for Saluts - on to my Kiev. Can one run an
> adapter that will allow the usesage of Pentacon Six (b) mount
> lenses? If so how worth while is it - are the Pentacon lenes that
> much better. Currently my three cameras, the Salut, Salut C, and
> Kiev 88 are off at Hartblei getting worked. I hope they come back,
> but should I have them change the mount? It is spendy $240.00.
> Thanks in advance.
>
> MJA

From Kiev88 Mailing List:
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001
From: flexaret@sprynet.com
Subject: Kiev 88 Crank Model

Kelvin,

The new so-called Kiev 88 "crank model" as sold by Mike Fourman-Kiev
Camera is really the equivalent of a new model.

The year 2000 and up production of the standard Kiev 88, at least based on
the sample I have, seems to be well made with everything working and
shutter speeds accurate with no problems. The new Hartblei crank is a
real upgrade too.

Added to this (from Kiev Camera) is extra lubrication and added internal
flocking.

The normal 80MM f2.8 Multicoated Arsat lens is very sharp and the camera
focusing is well aligned.

Add to this the improved new model waist level finder with wide field
magnifier and an NT back and you have a professional camera suited for all
medium format uses.

Yes, this takes the old "B" screw mount lenses (not Pentacon 6 mount) -
but as people are changing to the Pentacon 6 mount cameras and lenses -
there are many old "B" mount lenses out there, plus odd items for the old
Hasselblad 1000F and one can acquire quite a range of optics at low
prices.

- Sam Sherman 

From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 12 Oct 2001 
Subject: Re: Kiev 88 lens

Nothing like the Bronica leaf shutter lens was ever made commercially for Kiev
88.

It is an easy thing to make-

Get a short Kiev 88 Extension tube and connect this to any bellows on which you mount a 100MM or more  (to 135MM) lens in sync leaf shutter - preferably one with "press focus" which opens the blades to focus - then you can release this -
using the back shutter on "B". Of course all of this is manual and not interconnected.

You could also make a mount to attach the Kiev 88 to the back of a Crown Graphic camera - possibly one of the less expensive 3 1/4 x 4 1/4 models.

- Sam Sherman


From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 18 Oct 2001 
Subject: Re: Salyut-C

The Salyut-C is the same as the S - C is the Russian for S.

The Salyut is the early model takes different lenses- I don't know about a
guillotine shutter - I thought all have the horizontal travel metal
curtainslike the Hassy 1000F.

There are many excellent Salyut-C cameras still around and they were largely a
quality bench made camera - not assembly line camera.
I have one which works well - they will use all the lenses, finders
and backs as the standard Kiev 88, except you must change lenses with the
shutter uncocked.

- Sam Sherman


From: "Mark Smith" marksct@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Kiev 88  -  Wow.
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 

I just got back my first seven rolls of Reala and NPC film from the
developer. Wow... I could not believe the quality of the photos.

I last month purchased a Kiev 88 MF camera with some lenes. (30mm Fisheye,
80mm Norm., 150mm) all for $650. I wanted to get into MF photography quickly
and some what inexpensively. I can afford any other MF out there, but why
pay for it when you are new to this format.

This camera handled incredibly. I had no problems with the film, the backs,
or the lenes. Granted, it does not feel like me F5 in the 35mm world, but
its worth what I paid for it.

I know some of you don't want to hear this because you heard from a friend
or a friend that they had a major catastrophy with it, but I recommend that
you try it yourself personally. If you want to spend $6000 on the same type
of equipment I have in another brand, you can afford to spend $650 to test
this out.

I highly recommend that anyone of you out there are interested in low cost,
high value MF photography to take a look at this camera. DO NOT GET IT
SECOND HAND OFF EBAY!!!!! Get it from a reputable dealer such as
Kievcamera.com in Atlanta, or Kiev/USA (Kievusa.com) .

I have been a avid amature photographer for over 15 years... I have taken
some incredible as well as some horrible photos with my Minoltas and Nikons.
This is my first foray into medium format, and I feel that I did it the
right way by going with a Kiev 88.

I do not do professional high stress photography like weddings, but I go out
to NYC, and to the hill to photograph people, nature and landscape. I feel I
am good at it. This month I just got a whole hell of a lot better.

Thanks to the Kiev dealers in the U.S. for giving me the tools to make
photography even more fun, without all the expense.

Mark.


From: kevin_i@my-deja.com (kevin_i)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 88  -  Wow.
Date: 3 Nov 2001 

Welcome to the fun-filled, sometimes challenging, but easy on the
pocketbook and quite rewarding world of Kiev-ownership.  I wish you
the best of luck with your new camera.  I've had mine for about a year
and a half now and am having a blast with it.  My Bronicas and Mamiyas
don't get much exercise these days.

If you haven't already found it, you might want to check out the Kiev
Report forum on Delphi at http://www.delphi.com/kievreport/ or stop by
http://kievaholic.com/ [ed. note: see http://forums.delphiforums.com/kievreport/start/]

The 150mm lens is especially nice for portraits.  It's not the
sharpest lens in the world, but that's not really a disadvantage in
portraiture.  Its F2.8 maximum aperture is very nice, and it has a
slightly warm color balance which makes for pleasing portraits.  It
doesn't focus very close, but if you put it on a 20mm extension tube
(available with the 40mm tube for about $25) you can do some nice head
and shoulders shots.

Have fun and happy shooting!

-Kevin


"Mark Smith" marksct@earthlink.net> wrote 
> I just got back my first seven rolls of Reala and NPC film from the
> developer. Wow... I could not believe the quality of the photos.
> 
> I last month purchased a Kiev 88 MF camera with some lenes. (30mm Fisheye,
> 80mm Norm., 150mm) all for $650. I wanted to get into MF photography quickly
> and some what inexpensively. I can afford any other MF out there, but why
> pay for it when you are new to this format.
> 
> This camera handled incredibly. I had no problems with the film, the backs,
> or the lenes. Granted, it does not feel like me F5 in the 35mm world, but
> its worth what I paid for it.
> 
> I know some of you don't want to hear this because you heard from a friend
> or a friend that they had a major catastrophy with it, but I recommend that
> you try it yourself personally. If you want to spend $6000 on the same type
> of equipment I have in another brand, you can afford to spend $650 to test
> this out.
> 
> I highly recommend that anyone of you out there are interested in low cost,
> high value MF photography to take a look at this camera. DO NOT GET IT
> SECOND HAND OFF EBAY!!!!! Get it from a reputable dealer such as
> Kievcamera.com in Atlanta, or Kiev/USA (Kievusa.com) .
> 
> I have been a avid amature photographer for over 15 years... I have taken
> some incredible as well as some horrible photos with my Minoltas and Nikons.
> This is my first foray into medium format, and I feel that I did it the
> right way by going with a Kiev 88.
> 
> I do not do professional high stress photography like weddings, but I go out
> to NYC, and to the hill to photograph people, nature and landscape. I feel I
> am good at it. This month I just got a whole hell of a lot better.
> 
> Thanks to the Kiev dealers in the U.S. for giving me the tools to make
> photography even more fun, without all the expense.
> 
> Mark.


From: kevin_i@my-deja.com (kevin_i)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 88  -  Wow.
Date: 4 Nov 2001 

A lot of people will tell you it's not a good idea to buy a Kiev
camera from an individual off an eBay auction for the simple reason
that you get no guarantee as to its condition and performance.  I have
to agree with them.

Quality control with Kievs straight from the factory is not the
greatest... this is a well known fact.  Add to that the possibility of
user inflicted damage or abuse, and I don't think I'd be willing to
send a couple hundred dollars to someone for a camera I can't inspect
beforehand.

The reason most 'seasoned' Kiev users recommend only buying cameras
from a reputable dealer (such as the previously mentioned Kiev Camera
and Kiev USA) is because you are dealing with an established business
that has something to lose if their reputation gets tarnished by
constantly putting out non-working junk.

The recommended dealers may cost a little to a lot more than a guy
selling on eBay, but at least you have a real exchange/return warranty
period (1 year).  And yes, with Kievs you may very well need that
privilege.

I love my Kievs, but I will be one of the first to say that they are
NOT for everyone.  For someone who just needs or wants a camera that
works all the time -- i.e. a professional photographer --
factory-stock Kievs are a terrible choice.

But for the people who love photography, want to try medium format or
just want another toy, have a little patience to put up with sometimes
temperamental gear and don't have a whole lot of money to spend on
equipment that will only get used from time to time... Kievs can be
absolutely wonderful.

I have gotten some stunning images with them that I wouldn't have been
able to get with my other MF cameras.  Why?  Because some of the
lenses like the ones I have for my Kiev just aren't available with the
other systems, or cost so much that I could never justify their
purchase.

-Kevin


wcmarti@attglobal.net wrote 
> Since he mentioned two of his preferred choices, it doesn't sound like a shill
> for any particular "institution". Maybe he's simply genuinely happy with his
> purchase? I also believe Kiev can be a pile of crap, but surely a country that
> can send spacecraft to Venus can turn out the occasional decent camera. Maybe he
> lucked out.
> 
> eMeL wrote:
> 
> > Since I - and many other people - find Kiev to be an unspeakable pile of
> > crap I'm happy that there altruistic people like you out there who are
> > always ready to share their recent discoveries in MF photography and even
> > every now and then include a pointer or two to the institutional sources of
> > such equipment in the US. Also I'd like to thank you for your unbiased price
> > comparison and the warning not to buy the same equipment from other sources
> > for 60-80% less.
> > Thank you again for your oh-so succinctly presented opinions.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > Mark Smith marksct@earthlink.net> wrote...
> > > I just got back my first seven rolls of Reala and NPC film from the
> > > developer. Wow... I could not believe the quality of the photos.
> > >
> > > I last month purchased a Kiev 88 MF camera with some lenes. (30mm Fisheye,
> > > 80mm Norm., 150mm) all for $650. I wanted to get into MF photography
>  quickly
> > > and some what inexpensively. I can afford any other MF out there, but why
> > > pay for it when you are new to this format.
> > >
> > > This camera handled incredibly. I had no problems with the film, the
>  backs,
> > > or the lenes. Granted, it does not feel like me F5 in the 35mm world, but
> > > its worth what I paid for it.
> > >
> > > I know some of you don't want to hear this because you heard from a friend
> > > or a friend that they had a major catastrophy with it, but I recommend
>  that
> > > you try it yourself personally. If you want to spend $6000 on the same
>  type
> > > of equipment I have in another brand, you can afford to spend $650 to test
> > > this out.
> > >
> > > I highly recommend that anyone of you out there are interested in low
>  cost,
> > > high value MF photography to take a look at this camera. DO NOT GET IT
> > > SECOND HAND OFF EBAY!!!!! Get it from a reputable dealer such as
> > > Kievcamera.com in Atlanta, or Kiev/USA (Kievusa.com) .
> > >
> > > I have been a avid amature photographer for over 15 years... I have taken
> > > some incredible as well as some horrible photos with my Minoltas and
>  Nikons.
> > > This is my first foray into medium format, and I feel that I did it the
> > > right way by going with a Kiev 88.
> > >
> > > I do not do professional high stress photography like weddings, but I go
>  out
> > > to NYC, and to the hill to photograph people, nature and landscape. I feel
>  I
> > > am good at it. This month I just got a whole hell of a lot better.
> > >
> > > Thanks to the Kiev dealers in the U.S. for giving me the tools to make
> > > photography even more fun, without all the expense.
> > >
> > > Mark.



From: 123hkrafft456@polbox.com (Hartmut Krafft)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Hartblei?
Date: 6 Nov 2001 

Stephe Thayer ms_stephe@excite.com>
wrote:

> Reading the kiev thread got me interested and followed some links and saw 
> these. They -appear- to be much improved versions of the kiev 88 and the 
> mirror lockup looks like a nice feature. Anyone know anything about these 
> or own one? The price is higher than a base kiev 88 but seems to be much 
> cheaper than the modified kiev's from kiev USA. They also have their own 
> version that mates with hassy backs which might be nice. The tilt shift 45 
> looks interesting as well. I don't shoot that often and I'm not a pro so 
> durability isn't a big issue. I could never talk myself into spending the 
> $$$ for a hassy but this system looks interesting. TIA

>From personal experience: Quality is as volatile with Hartblei as
with any other (cheaper) Kiev around... They just seem to be 
unable to shed their nonchalance regarding crucial issues such as
shutter banding...

So, it's a hit-or-miss thing, and this applies to any Kiev I've 
seen. You might as well go for a cheaper offer or a dealer nearer
to you.

Hartmut

-- 
  Remove all numbers from email address to reply directly.


From: Franck Maubuisson fmaubuis@club-internet.fr>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Hartblei?
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 

I bought a modified K88 with P6 mount,  black metal shutter but standard backs
from Hartblei a few months ago,
I waited for it about one month, and they send a lens I had not ordered and
that I had to send back.

This camera works fine, the shutter works regularly even at 1/1000 and the
focusing screen is perfectly calibrated (excellent results with the
Flektogon), the compatibility with the P6 mount is OK.So far, I must have run
about 20 films through it. Finder darker than a K60 but much better than a P6.
1/125 necessary to get sharp pics.

But the two backs wich came with it were leaking and one was scratching the
film,
and the metered prism was off - still I was able to correct this myself.

so:

- it's expensive
- they don't seem to care much about accessories
- they do not seem to be very well organized.
- but they do know how to make a working K88 with a perfect P6 mount

If this K88 goes on working like it does, it's a good buy, I really like it.

Considering the price, I think it's worth trying if you have several P6 mount
lenses:
if you only need a 80mm, for the same price, you can find a good japanese
camera,
if you want to try a 50mm, a180mm, a 30mm, and some others, Kievs are the only
way.



Stephe Thayer a Tcrit :

> Reading the kiev thread got me interested and followed some links and saw
> these. They -appear- to be much improved versions of the kiev 88 and the
> mirror lockup looks like a nice feature. Anyone know anything about these
> or own one? The price is higher than a base kiev 88 but seems to be much
> cheaper than the modified kiev's from kiev USA. They also have their own
> version that mates with hassy backs which might be nice. The tilt shift 45
> looks interesting as well. I don't shoot that often and I'm not a pro so
> durability isn't a big issue. I could never talk myself into spending the
> $$$ for a hassy but this system looks interesting. TIA
> --
>
>   Stephe



From: "Mark Smith" marksct@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 88  -  Wow.
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 

Well Dave,

I am excited because I have been using a low cost camera that gives me
photos that compete directly with those people in Photography club that are
using Rolleis and Hassys. And it burns them up something fierce.

Remember is not the camera, its the idiot behind it. Go as Ansel Adams. (if
you could).

I aquired these from a local newspaper ad, from someone who needed money. I
thought it would be a great way of getting into the MF world. Like I said in
the beginning I have been shooting for a number of years so cameras and
equipment are not new to me. I even sold cameras out in Fresno, Ca. for a
couple of years while going to college.

Anyway, the camera and 80mm lens cost me $250, the fish-eye cost me $200,
and the 150mm cost me $125. I compared these prices with a friend of mine in
Fresno and with some eBay stuff and it corroborated.

After reading more about the camera I came to realize that it has a history
of being unfaithful in its functionality. I then went around the internet
and did some reviews and got on a bulletin board or two and they all had
some sort of war story they had with there camera. They all mentioned that
you should get this camera from a dealer, and not third party due to support
reasons. I felt that I have been extremely lucky with this purchase and I
dodged a bullet.

I have no allegiance to anyone in the industry, I work as a portfolio
manager for a hedge fund and have no affiliation with any of the dealers of
this camera.

I do think in my years of experience of shooting photography that if you get
a Kiev 88 or 60 in good shape it is worth purchasing, especially if you are
new to MF. I am not recommending it for High Stress Pro stuff, but for most
of us weekend and vacation photographers it is a fantastic piece of
plumming. The lenses I have have been great, giving me some incredible
photos.

The other thing about this is that if the camera crashes after a year or
two, throw it away and buy another body for $250-300. That is less then the
cost of film and processing in one year.

Good Luck,
Mark


"The Dave(c)" thedave9@yahoo.com> wrote...
> "Mark Smith" wrote
> > I last month purchased a Kiev 88 MF camera with
> > some lenes. (30mm Fisheye, 80mm Norm., 150mm)
> > all for $650.
>
> How did you get all that, brand new, for only $650?  I couldn't find any
> deals like that on the kievusa website.
>
> I like your enthusiasm, but it comes off a little too much like a sales
> pitch, so I'm wary.
>


From: "Mark Smith" marksct@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 88  -  Wow.
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 

Thanks Michael (I think?!)

I am just trying to let everyone know that "One man's Trash is another man's
treasure" and that weather you get the top of the line product or the bottom
of the line product it is important to do your home work and purchase with
your head not your heart.

As for your first statement. I use to sell cameras in Fresno, Ca. in a
60,000 sq/ft store of just cameras. We carried every model from Hassys and
Rolleis down to fuji disposables. We also sold used and "Vintage".

I have to admit one thing and that we sent many, many hassys and rolleis for
repair. We had people come to us crappy film backs from Hassy, Rollei, and
Bronica. The term "Crap" is a relative term when you throw in the human
factor and man's infinite ability to be an ass with their equipment. Do some
models have better engineering, or materials absolutly. But every company
has people in it that have to get up on Monday morning and try to put these
things together, and sometimes they make it better, and sometime it is
worse.

As for the Kiev, I have learned that most of the communist camera where made
be people who did not care because they were told that this was there job
and that they had to turn out volume. I think the dealers such as
KievCamera, KievUSA, Hartblei, CommieCamera, and others are adding some
significant value to these cameras when they rework them.

All I know is that the lenses on my Kiev are putting out some photos that
the people in my photo club who have Hassys and Rolleis and Mamiyas are
scratching there heads.

Good Luck,
Mark.



"eMeL" badbatz99@hotmail.com> wrote...
> Since I - and many other people - find Kiev to be an unspeakable pile of
> crap I'm happy that there altruistic people like you out there who are
> always ready to share their recent discoveries in MF photography and even
> every now and then include a pointer or two to the institutional sources
of
> such equipment in the US. Also I'd like to thank you for your unbiased
price
> comparison and the warning not to buy the same equipment from other
sources
> for 60-80% less.
> Thank you again for your oh-so succinctly presented opinions.
>
> Michael
>
>
> Mark Smith marksct@earthlink.net> wrote...
> > I just got back my first seven rolls of Reala and NPC film from the
> > developer. Wow... I could not believe the quality of the photos.
> >
> > I last month purchased a Kiev 88 MF camera with some lenes. (30mm
Fisheye,
> > 80mm Norm., 150mm) all for $650. I wanted to get into MF photography
> quickly
> > and some what inexpensively. I can afford any other MF out there, but
why
> > pay for it when you are new to this format.
> >
> > This camera handled incredibly. I had no problems with the film, the
> backs,
> > or the lenes. Granted, it does not feel like me F5 in the 35mm world,
but
> > its worth what I paid for it.
> >
> > I know some of you don't want to hear this because you heard from a
friend
> > or a friend that they had a major catastrophy with it, but I recommend
> that
> > you try it yourself personally. If you want to spend $6000 on the same
> type
> > of equipment I have in another brand, you can afford to spend $650 to
test
> > this out.
> >
> > I highly recommend that anyone of you out there are interested in low
> cost,
> > high value MF photography to take a look at this camera. DO NOT GET IT
> > SECOND HAND OFF EBAY!!!!! Get it from a reputable dealer such as
> > Kievcamera.com in Atlanta, or Kiev/USA (Kievusa.com) .
> >
> > I have been a avid amature photographer for over 15 years... I have
taken
> > some incredible as well as some horrible photos with my Minoltas and
> Nikons.
> > This is my first foray into medium format, and I feel that I did it the
> > right way by going with a Kiev 88.
> >
> > I do not do professional high stress photography like weddings, but I go
> out
> > to NYC, and to the hill to photograph people, nature and landscape. I
feel
> I
> > am good at it. This month I just got a whole hell of a lot better.
> >
> > Thanks to the Kiev dealers in the U.S. for giving me the tools to make
> > photography even more fun, without all the expense.
> >
> > Mark.


From: "eMeL" badbatz99@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 88  -  Wow.
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 

I'm not arguing the quality of design of lenses from the commie factories -
after all a Sonnar is a Sonnar is a Sonnar - but the quality of
construction, manufacturing, QA  and the lack of meaningful manufacturing
and quality assurance standards at the Jena factory.  And - as I have
already pointed out in other messages - I'm mainly concerned with the period
ranging from the erection of the wall to the mid-to-late '80s.  Before 1961
and after the (say) 1988 the Jena factory was IMO doing just fine in the
quality department.  But if you get a Jena lens made - say - in 1972 (or any
of the "zebra" lenses), you can never be sure about its optical and
mechanical quality without testing it first.  One specimen can be soft and
"soapy" - another sharp and contrasty.  One can be build like a tank and
another could be not aligned and with loose rings or optical elements.  One
just couldn't be sure... OTOH I have no problems buying a
Zeiss Oberkochen lens of the same vintage - in fact I did own a number of
"chrome" Zeiss lenses while shooting with Hasselblad equipment - and they
were all great - with no exceptions!  It tells me that QC at Oberkochen was
far better than in Jena.

Sooo... A Sonnar is indeed a Sonnar as long as it is build to tight
tolerances using the optical design and materials specified by the designer.
If the tolerances are not met - it becomes either a lousy Sonnar or not a
Sonnar at all.  I do postulate that in many a period the standards for
manufacturing tolerances and materials were NOT met at the Jena factory,
hence a large percentage of  "aus Jena" duds.

Moreover, it appears to me that the place of the original purchase of the
lens can give a pretty good idea about its quality:  apparently the commie
Germans were sending the worst specimens to the eastern European countries,
selling better ones on the domestic market and exporting the best ones to
"the west."  So, if your lens was originally purchased in England (the E.
Germans were selling lots of stuff over there) chances are that it is
decent.  But if you happen to stumble upon a lens originally sold in
Poland - it may be a crap shot in terms of quality.

Granted, my experience is based only on a relatively small sample of lenses
(several of each type I did own myself, plus a few dozen owned/used by my
coworkers and friends) but in any event I have probably used more optics
made at the Jena factory than a lot of Jenean pundits here :-)
(Note to Ralph - should you need to quote the last sentence, please quote it
in extenso.)

I intimately know a number of Jena lenses:  For Pentacon Six - Flektogon
4/50, Biometars 2.8/80 and 2.8/120, Sonnar 2.8-3.5/180, Sonnar 4/300,
Oerstegor 4/300.  For the 35 mm cameras with the M42x1 mount - Pancolar
1.8/50, Flektogon 4/20, Tessar 2.8/50, Sonnar 135, etc.  Some specimens were
good, some not so good, some ugly as sin... The quality was all over the
map.  That's my point...

So, if one is on the market for a second-hand E. German lens,  make sure
that one knows its origin, its approximate vintage and that you have an
iron-clad money-back guarantee.  Of course if you are paying peanuts the
above conditions are not applicable.  You *may* end up with a pretty and
inexpensive paperweight but for a few bucks it is worth a try...  I use a
Biometar 2.8/120 sans its glass as a pencil holder at home, and a partially
"deglassed" Canon FD 135 mm lens for the same purpose at work....Both are
very functional this way :-)

Good shooting!
Michael



FLEXARET2 flexaret2@aol.com> wrote...
> from: flexaret2@aol.com (Sam Sherman)  11-7-01
>
> Carl Zeiss Jena was the original Zeiss optical factory from its inception
until
> it stopped making lenses - or it still may do so.
>
> US authorities were quick to take both optical and camera experts from
> Carl Zeiss (the optical factory in Jena) which survived the WWII bombing
> and Zeiss Ikon (affected by the bombing) in Dresden and nearby towns
> to the Western Zone of Germany in 1945 as Germany was being partitioned
into
> Western (the Western/Allied) and Eastern Zone (the Russians). I think that
the
> Western Zone was originally US, French and
> English Zones - all to become one Western Zone. The seat of the
> Carl Zeiss Siftung (foundation) was moved to Heidenheim in the
> Western Zone.
>
> All of this was a big political football as the Russians, who had been
> allied with the West against Germany during WWII, slipped into their
> own Cold War world and years of antagonism with their former Western
allies
> began.
>
> At the same time the Western Zeiss enterprises in the old Contessa-
> Nettel factory in Stuttgart and other work in Oberkochen began slowly and
as
> their initial optics were limited or poor, Zeiss West was forced
> to purchase new lenses from both Schneider and Carl Zeiss Jena.
> The antagonisms over the Zeiss trademarks started in the 1950s
> and lasted onward until Zeiss West purchased Carl Zeiss Jena after
> the reunification of Germany.
>
> The use of the original (Eastern Zone) Zeiss trademarks must have lasted
until
> the mid to late 1980s or even into the 1990s - as there was a "Zeiss"
optical
> company in London, based on the Eastern Zeiss name and products until the
> 1990s, and may still be in business. Furthermore, Carl Zeiss Jena used
their
> name and trademarks on various zoom and other lenses made in Japan by
Sigma
> with mounts for Nikon, Minolta and other
> brand cameras.
>
> As for Carl Zeiss Jena lenses, sure there are a few that could be less
than
> perfect. But, I have used their lenses for over 30 years in
> 35MM and 6x6cm cameras and I have never found a bad one.
> I have a Rolleiflex TLR camera dating from the late 1940s (Made in the
> Western Zone of Germany) with the original Carl Zeiss Jena "T" coated
> f3.5 Tessar lens and it delivers very sharp results.  As the 1950s rolled
> on Zeiss West produced Zeiss "Opton" Tessar lenses for these cameras.
> My experience with these lenses is that they were good very stopped down
and
> very soft wide open and out of focus on the sides.
>
> Wake up and smell the flowers-
>
> The Cold War is over - anybody can use Carl Zeiss Jena lenses without
> being suspected of being a member of the communist party.
>
> Ask anybody with a history of using these lenses how good they are.
>
> In Shutterbug Magazine, both Bob Shell and Jay Abend praised the
> Carl Zeiss Jena lenses in Pentacon 6 mount, as professional quality
> lenses producing professional results.  Yes, they were produced by the
original
> Carl Zeiss Jena factory to original Carl Zeiss Jena forumulas-
> if these are not "Zeiss" lenses, then whatever they are they are still
> very good.
>
> Caveat - Those not wishing to use these lenses are not forced by
> me or anybody else to read this post or use these lenses. Those persons
> are certainly free to pay 10 times the amount for Carl Zeiss lenses
> currently made by Zeiss in the former Western Zone, and denigrate the
> Jena lenses all they like.  The rest of us who are using Carl Zeiss Jena lenses
> as great bargains, can continue to do so with big grins on our faces.
>
> Remember, the 180MM f2.8 Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar, in black pre-set
> mount, was sold in the 1950s (and into the 1960s) by Carl Zeiss
> in the Western Zone of Germany, as a genuine Zeiss lens and the
> only such lens available with the reflex housing for the Contax IIA
> and IIIA cameras. The same exact lens from Carl Zeiss Jena was sold in mounts
> for Exakta, 42MM screw and other mounts - and later in an automatic mount for
> Pentacon 6 with adapters for 35MM cameras. When did this lens automatically
> become NOT a Zeiss lens? (The same story also goes for the 300MM f4 Sonnar and
> other optics).


From: Dominic-Luc Webb molmed domweb@mbox.ki.se>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 88  -  Wow.
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 

Mark Smith wrote:

   > I just got back my first seven rolls of Reala and NPC film from the
   > developer. Wow... I could not believe the quality of the photos.


I have a Kiev 80, which are considered by some to be better
because they are possibly more durable. The two drawbacks I
have encountered with the Kievs are:

1) light scatter giving strange overexposure effects. I
think this is mixture of bad coatings and loose fitting
permitting light to leak in when it shouldn't.

2) Mechanical failures. The shop here felt I was safe with
the earlier Kiev 80, but he specifically warned be to stay
away from the 88. He bought 10 of them in Russia and tried
to sell them in the West with warrantees. Only two are still
functioning, one because it is still in the box and presumed
to still work. The problem is to do with the internal
mechanical parts, gears, etc that progressively slip.

I use these for astrophotography, so the light contamination
is not a problem for me. I could add a baffle for daytime
pics, which might help considerably. I would urge you to
treat that camera nicely. I really like mine, but I am
always a little paranoid about when it will finally
experience the dreaded mechanical failure people talk
about so much.

OK, I will go ahead and bring Hasselblad into the same
breath as Kiev... I have experienced at least one
Hasselblad in which the fitting for the film magazine
was not as good as the Kiev. Buying a Hasselblad might
not be the solution.


Cheers,

Dominic



To: camera-fix@yahoogroups.com
From: gnwater2000@yahoo.com
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 
Subject: [camera-fix] film plane to lens mount of kiev 88 body

hi there!

i found two k88 bodies with film plane to lens mount distance of 82.4-
82.6mm. the specifications says 82.1mm+-0.05. 

the two bodies i checked is year 2000 k88 model.

are there changes in the specification?

thanks,
gabby buenagua




To: camera-fix@yahoogroups.com
From: flexaret@sprynet.com
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 
Subject: Re: [camera-fix] adjusting exposure timing mechanism for k88

Kelvin,

The Kiev 88 and Salyut-C can be great cameras if you start with a good one
to begin with.

Then they are pretty strange to lubricate. Bear in mind I have not taken one
completely apart in a long time.

However, the slow speed gear escapement with impeller - like a fan or motor
governor, is intended to work without lubrication. The two main stacked gears on the right side which run the shutter "need" lubrication and this can migrate to the slow speed gears and cause a problem.

My advice if the slow speed gears are working okay leave them alone. If they
are sticking or not working - drip a drop of solvent without lubricant on them.

The two stacked shutter gears-  if the closing curtain is slow or if there
is "banding" or shutter fading -try this. Get a pin point "injection" style oiler with very light oil.

Look into the bottom with the lens off and as you look into the camera the
two gears stacked are now on your lower left. Put one drop of oil on the top center of the two gears where there is a pivot and lever.

Put the injection point into the center of the two stacked gears and add one
drop there.

Properly done this can work miracles.

- Sam Sherman

----------
From: Bob Shell bob@bobshell.com>
To: camera-fix@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [camera-fix] adjusting exposure timing mechanism for k88
Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001, 6:06 AM

> From: "Kelvin" kelvinlee@pacific.net.sg>
> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 
> To: camera-fix@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Re: [camera-fix] adjusting exposure timing mechanism for k88
> 
> I recall Sam Sherman (or was it Bob Shell?) talking about adding a drop of
> oil in the right place to a similar

Wasn't me, musta been Sam.

Bob


To: camera-fix@yahoogroups.com
From: "Roman Rohleder" rjrohleder@web.de>
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 
Subject: [camera-fix] Rev : adjusting exposure timing mechanism for Kiev-88

Moin!

Here in Germany, a service manual concerning the Kiev88 is available. Is seems to be written in cooperation with Foto Wiese, Hamburg, the place where I obtained my Kiev 4 years ago. It consists of the usual drawings combined with a listing of used parts, together with the original Arsenal Zavod replacement numbers.. Currently I borrowed mine to my uncle (together with the 88 ;-), so i can't have a look at it now..

"KIEV-88/88TTL Reparaturhandbuch"
Author Wolfgang Weiner
Wittig Fachbuch
ISBN 393035912X
Price 22,90 Euro, 44,79 DM  @ amazon.de

As far as I recall, I have paid 35 DM for it.. #-)
Maybe this could be helpful.
Ahh, allmost forgot : It is written in german.. ,->

Beste Gruesse, Alles Gute!

roman rohleder
 


To: camera-fix@yahoogroups.com>
From: "Kelvin" kelvinlee@pacific.net.sg>
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 
Subject: [camera-fix] Fw: [Kiev88] adjusting Arsat

For those of you with Kiev88 kits and need to adjust the focus scale
on the supplied arsat / volna lens.

----- Original Message -----
From: "bdmphoto" bdmphoto@email.msn.com>
To: Kiev88@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 2:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Kiev88] adjusting Arsat


> Hi Mark
> very easy:
> 1 Remove the rubber focusing ring from the lens
> 2 Put the lens on infinity
> 3 Unscrew 6-or 8 tiny screws located on the the focusing metal ring. Do
not
> loose the. After the focusing ring will loose turn it back( I recommend to
> put it between infinity and 2)  and put all screws back
> 4 Install rubber ring and you will be fine. If not , you have to turn
> focusing ring  more
> Regards
> Mike
> 770-409-0026
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "mark hahn" markhahn2000@yahoo.com>
> To: Kiev88@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, August 13, 2001 2:01 PM
> Subject: [Kiev88] adjusting Arsat
>
>
> > ok, while we are discussing problems... how do you
> > adjust your focus scale/infinitiy stop on the Arsat
> > fisheye?  Mine is pretty far off... of course it
> > doesn't really matter much when you are stopped
> > down... but it is still annoying.
> >
> > thanks,
> >
> > mark
> >
> > PS  also, no one has mentioned how to get at the
> > ground glass screws in a K88.  I'm sure it is just a
> > matter of taking off the waistlevel finder... but I
> > haven't figured out the trick to doing that yet.
> >


From: Lassi lahippel@ieee.orgies.invalid>
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev-copy of 'Blad?
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 

McLeod wrote:
> 
> The Russians bought the dies from Hasselblad after they stopped production
> of the 500 C's.  They are actually made with the old Hasselblad dies.  The
> reason the Swedes stopped using them however was because they were worn out.
> The tolerances are now so far out that you are rolling the dice even when
> you buy a new Kiev.  I hear chances are about 50/50 it will actually work as
> it is supposed to and all of pieces will fit together.
> 
> Neurula [Sydney] klee@kensocoll.unsw.edu.au wrote 
> > Read the description, so what brand is this??
> >
> > http://cgi.ebay.com.au/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item;=1273045750

Something seriously wrong here. More than calling the Kievs "Russian",
when they are really Ukrainian.

The Kiev 88 is a copy of Hasselblad 1000F, not 500C. That is, Kiev has a
focal plane shutter, and uses the old thread mount that Hasselblad
abandoned ages ago. They made their Hassy-copy sometime in the 1950s,
and still keep the backwards compatibility. For example, the lenses do
not have shutters, which keeps their prices down. The same optical
designs are also available with the Pentacon Six mount (for Kiev 60).

They have later started to produce models, whose acessories are better
compatible with modern Hassies, but AFAIK that doesn't extend to the
lenses, because there is the shutter problem. The backs and the finders
should be interchangeable.

Some more comments from this ng:
http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/kievpent.htm

-- Lassi



From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 12 Sep 2001 
Subject: Re: Kiev-copy of 'Blad?

Ralf-

Re- Kiev 88CM

Most of my Kiev 60 and Pentacon 6 lenses fit this camera with the locking ring
mount (not twist and lock type).

The ones that fit in the mount and don't allow the ring to lock are basically
Pentacon 6 extension tubes I used to adapt odd lenses
to Pentacon 6 - they don't fit Kiev 60 either.

As for Carl Zeiss Jena - I have 3 80MM Biometar lenses on Pentacon cameras -
they don't allow the ring to lock them because of the stop down lever
interfering. However, the Arsat 80MM MC is such a nice sharp lens I don't need
to use the 80MM Biometar on this camera.

I can lock on my 120MM f2.8 Biometar and 180MM  f2.8 Sonnar.
Re- stopdown pins on the lenses - originally they extended too far out and
pressed into the camera stopdown lever causing the mirror to move back and out
of focus alignment. I opened the CZJ enses and adjusted the
stopdown pins which can screw into the lens as far as possible. This solved the
problem and those lenses work perfectly for me on the K88CM.
I understand some later CZJ lenses have pins which cannot be adjusted like this
- or apparently not. In general I am pleased with the camera.

- Sam Sherman


Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 
Subject: Re: [Rollei] OT - hello to the rollei list
From: Bob Shell bob@bobshell.com>
To: rollei@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us>

> From: Dale Dickerson vze2g2z8@verizon.net>
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 
> To: rollei@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
> Subject: Re: [Rollei] OT - hello to the rollei list
> 
> Does the Kiev 88CM having a p-6 mount?  yes and no. Yes, the camera will
> take all the Ukraine made lenses for the Kiev 60. However, it does not
> correctly mount all the p-6 CZJ lenses. The CZJ MC Sonnar 180/2.8 will
> NOT mount on the 88CM. The construction of the 88CM mount will not
> permit the ring to lock the lens on to the camera body.
> 

Hey, I use my CZJ 180/2.8 on my Kiev 88CM.  It fits just fine.  The shutter
release button was moved outboard just to allow clearance for this lens.
Maybe some weren't built this way.  The only lens I had which would not
fit was the Kiev 150/2.8 because someone at the factory installed an
alignment screw in the lens which was too big in diameter to fit into the
slot at the top of the lens mount on the body.  I replaced it with a thinner
one and it works fine.

> I do not know if the Schneider p-6 lenses will fit the Kiev 88CM.
> 

No reason they wouldn't.

> There is a way to modify a Rollei 6008 screen for the Pentacon Six.
> 
> If you can find an Exakta 66 screen it also is a brighter screen. The
> Exakta 66 is a newer version of the Pentacon Six. You might want to look
> at one.

The Exakta 66 screens are Rollei screens.

Bob



Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 
Subject: Re: [Rollei] OT - hello to the rollei list
From: Bob Shell bob@bobshell.com>
To: rollei@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us>


> From: Sebastian Student@interia.pl>
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 
> To: rollei@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
> Subject: [Rollei] OT - hello to the rollei list
> 
> Hello to all!
> I'm new on the list. I have a little off topic question.
> I'm going to buy Pentacon Six TL. Now I have CZJ Sonnar 180/2,8 in
> excellent condiotion. But I wonder if is it any alternative for
> Pentacon Six instead Kiev... Camera is so heavy and prism is so dark.
> I've heard about new Kiev with Pentacon mount. Is ist true?
> best regards
> Sebastian

Per my other reply to Dale, yes you can use your lens on *some* Kiev 88
cameras.  The ones which accept the 180 have the shutter release button
moved outboard on the camera body and angled to allow clearance for this
lens.  There was also one version with the shutter release on the side
of the camera.  When this new lens mount version of the Kiev 88 was first
shown at photokina some time back the CZJ 180 was the lens they chose
to mount on it.

Another route is a Kiev 60 which will accept your lens with no problem.
It also has a much brighter focusing screen.

Bob



From: Andrei.Calciu@hn.va.nec.com
Subject: Re: [Rollei] OT - hello to the Rollei list
To: rollei@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 

I have an extensive collection of Pentacon 6, Praktisix, Kiev 60, Kiev 88
and Exakta 66. A total of about 15 bodies, and numerous lenses, from all
sources, from 30mm fisheye, to the 1000mm Zeiss mirror lens.

All the lenses I have fit very well on all my Kiev 88 cameras with P-6
mount. I have not yet tried the 1000mm lens on that body yet, but this is a
new lens for me. On some Kiev 88's the mirror lock up will not work with
some lenses (they are physically obstructing the mirror release switch.
Also, generation 1 Kiev 88 with P-6 mount (presumably not a factory
modification) will not work with some of the bigger lenses because the
release button is in the way (too close to the mount).

There is a German company that manufactures an adapter that will allow you
to use a Kiev prism on the Pentacon body. As with everything German, it is
well made and super expensive. Last year the price was over 100 bucks for
the adapter (over 200 DM).

The Kiev prisms, especially the newer ones, are pretty darn good. The Kiev
88 does not need adapters to use the Kiev 88 prism (duh) and Hasselblad
prisms. I have had no problems with either Ukrainian metered prisms and
like them a lot.

All the P-6 lenses will work with no problem on the Kiev 60 and 6-C
cameras. Unfortunately, last year when I spoke to a manager at the plant in
Kiev, they said the model 60 is out of production, as they cannot afford to
make both cameras. So they are concentrating on the Kiev 88 and making it
better. Now factory kits come with mirror lock-up and black shutters (both
metal and cloth) and with P-6 mount and the NT backs are really good, being
interchangeable with Hassy and having multiple exposure capabilities
(switch on the side of the magazine).

The only Kiev 88 with P-6 mount that I have had problems with came from
Kiev USA and that jerk who owns the company. He ripped me off of two bodies
(he said he lost them) and would not compensate me for them. Eventually we
settled on a replacement, but the Kiev 88 he sent me was a piece of sh*t. I
have never heard somebody lie so many times in a single phone conversation
as that guy. He must have thought I was born yesterday and did not know one
end of the camera from the other. Anyway, I will never send him any
business, and will gladly discourage anyone from dealing with his company.

Back to the issue here. You should have no problem using East German, West
German, Ukrainian lenses on your Kiev 88. The only exception to this rule
is if you have some of those transitional bodies (sorry, can't estimate
year or serial number range).

Andrei D. Calciu (VA-4270)


To: camera-fix@yahoogroups.com
From: Stephen Castello scastello@cfl.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 
Subject: Re: [camera-fix] DIY prism

I happen to have a Kiev-6c and an 88.

I measured them and they are almost the same size.
Kiev 6c (non ttl) is 49mm by 44mm.
Kiev88 ttl is 48mm by 48mm.

The flange on the 88 prism has a space of about 7mm between the flange bottom
and the glass.  The eye piece is in a better position than the 6c.

Either could work.

Stephen

"Parlin 44" parlin44@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I thought of raising the prism higher to get more coverage and to make more 
>room for the eye.
>
>I thought Kiev 60 or 6C prism might be a better option to Kiev88's ???


From: kevin_i@my-deja.com (kevin_i)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Russian Cameras
Date: 8 Dec 2001 

My story...

The first medium format camera I ever touched was a Hasselblad 500C. 
I learned MF on a Hasselblad, and I loved it... but it was not mine --
it belonged to a friend and professional wedding photographer.

I wanted in on MF photography so I bought what I could afford: a
Mamiya C3 TLR.  My collection grew to include at various times a C330,
RB67, Mamiya 1000S, Pentax 645, Bronica S2A, Bronica SQ, and now a
Kiev 88 and Kiev 88CM.

Now which camera do I use the most?  My Kiev 88CM.  Why?  Quite
simply, it is the system that I can afford to expand and thus provides
me with the versatility I crave in creating images.  A lot of my
recent photography wouldn't have been possible with my other
systems... one example being a great shot of the Leonids meteor shower
on November 19 that was taken with the 30mm Arsat fisheye.  On that
night, I had my Kiev 88CM and my Mamiya 1000S... I did put the fisheye
on the Mamiya, but the fisheye looks much better on 6x6 than 645, IMO.

I first read about Kievs in '93 or '94 and I was finally lured by the
low prices in 2000.  Since then, my equipment lineup has grown to
include a 30mm, two 45mm's, 50mm, two 65mm's on the way, three 80mm's,
two 120mm's, two 150mm's, 180mm, 250mm, and 500mm mirror lens plus
lots of accessories... all for less than the cost of most new MF basic
kits.  And, yes, I do use most of those lenses -- having them at my
disposal is great.

Because I am not a professional photographer, I do not demand
equipment that can sustain a beating.  I baby my cameras, including my
Kievs... and they perform for me.

I never did get a Hasselblad.  Sure, they are wonderful cameras... but
quite frankly, I could never justify the cost and would not be happy
with just one or two lenses.

If you are curious to know more about the Kiev appeal, please check
out:

http://kievaholic.com
http://www.delphi.com/kievreport/
[ed. note: see http://forums.delphiforums.com/kievreport/start/]
-Kevin


"Glen Barrington" glenbarrington@home.com> wrote 
> Most people say to stay away from them, yet there is a hard core of
> enthusiasts who are very happy with their Kiev's, Lubitel's, etc.  I admit
> the prices are tempting.
> 
> To those who are happy with your Russian cameras, WHY are you happy?  What
> are you doing different?  Do you maintain them yourselves?  Are your
> expectations lower than others?  There are enough horror stories floating
> around that makes me certain that the quality standards are not up to
> Western standards.  Yet, you are content, some of you are even enthusiasts.
> What gives with that?



To: camera-fix@yahoogroups.com
From: flexaret@sprynet.com
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 
Subject: Re: [camera-fix] Kiev 88 sticky slow speeds

Bob,


NO-NO-NO-NO!

Never put oil of any kind on a Kiev 88/Salyut slow speed gear mechanism.

Contrary to the need for very light lubrication in slow speed mechanisms in
leaf shutters,
this one must run DRY!

Putting any light lubrication on it will permanently gum it up.

What has happened follows-

The two main large shutter gears on the floor of the Kiev 88 (other side)
are usually improperly lubricated,
underlubricated or lubricated with some type of grease.

They need only two pin point drops of lvery light oil - in the pivot over
the top gear and in the sandwich of the top gear and the one under it.

Improper lubrication or too much on these gears goes spinning off into the
slow speed mechanism which must run dry
and gums this up.

To ungum the slow speed gears-

Put some regular alcohol in a small dropper bottle-

If a Kiev 88 you can see right into the bottom (looking in from the front -
gears on the right) - if a Kiev 88CM you will have to unscrew a small center
screw at the bottom and pry out a small metal cover covering these bottom
gears.

Then put a few drops of alchohol into the slow speed mechanism.

TURN THE CAMERA OVER  with lens mount down to a table and let the excess
alcohol run out.

After 30-60 minutes - wind and release the shutter at 1/8 second and work up
to 1/2 second - if working okay -
allow to dry further another hour or two. If everything works - okay.

If not repeat the process one or two times. If this does not work a more
complete job by a repair pro is needed.

BE SURE TO - Tilt the camera so that the draining is away from the side with
the two large shutter gears.

BE CAREFUL to point the camera in a way the alcohol - cannot get on cloth
shutter curtains, if you have them.
Just as good not to get it on the metal curtains too.

Good luck.

- Sam Sherman
----------
From: Bob Shell bob@bobshell.com>
To: camera-fix@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [camera-fix] Kiev 88 sticky slow speeds
Date: Tue, Dec 18, 2001, 9:10 AM


Hmmmm.  Never encountered that before.  The slow speed escapement is under
the bottom cover of the mirror box.  You just take out a couple screws and
you can lift this cover up to see the escapement. Just like the 1600 and
1000F Hasselblads it uses a fan rather than clockwork to time the gear
movement (which is why it is quiet).  Maybe a touch of watch oil on the
gear and fan pivots will cure this.

Bob

> From: "Parlin 44" parlin44@hotmail.com>
> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 
> To: camera-fix@yahoogroups.com>, Kiev88@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [camera-fix] Kiev 88 sticky slow speeds
> 
> Hi groups,
> 
> I chanced upon a (new) used K88 body in P6 and cloth-shutter with 4-digit
> serial# (of 2000 production?).  Everything's good except the 1/15, 1/8 stick
> AFTER one shot - 2nd curtain doesn't close.  But changing speed to 1/30 and
> switching back to 1/15 (1/8) fixes this problem.  In other words those
> speeds only work once.
> 
> I suppose I can live with that: must always remember to change speed to 1/30
> if I need to shoot at 1/15 (1/8) successively or simply avoid using those
> speeds.
> 
> Any input is appreciated...
> 
> TIA,
> parlin



To: camera-fix@yahoogroups.com
From: "gnwater2000" gnwater2000@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 
Subject: [camera-fix] Re: Kiev 88 sticky slow speeds

hi sam,

i adhere to your advice not to put grease or oil in the gearing of 
the slow speed/braking mechanism. but i've done it contrary to your 
advice, i just put a light oil on the brittle springs. 

the danger of putting oil in this mechanism is when it enters the big 
wheel of the braking mechanism. this wheel has a six leaf small star 
sprocket(like the star of david) inside which have six tiny bearings 
in between each leaf. the bearing makes the locking when it is pushed 
in the wall by the star in the housing making the rotation slow 
controlled by the impeller and makes the lever to slowly return back 
to its uncocked position. WHEN THERE IS OIL OR GREASE INSIDE THIS 
STAR OR HOUSING, THE BEARING WILL JUST SLIDE EVEN IF IT IS PUSHED IN 
THE WALL OF THE HOUSING. When cocking these bearings will just slide 
and join the rotation of the gear which is connected to sectored gear 
attached to the lever. if there is oil the shutter will release as if 
it is a 1/500 or 1/1000 even at low speeds (1/15 to 1/2)

as i see the need of oiling the spring in the lever because i found 
it too often broken. out of seven k88 bodies that i have opened 5 had 
a broken spring in the lever. that's why i bought 1 pound of #23 
spring wire which i think i much maleable compared to the original 
black spring. maybe they have annealed the spring? that's why it's 
black. mine is almost stainless steel(shiny) made by Hunter from 
Austria.

hope this inform everybody.

gabby b.


....


From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 01 Jan 2002 
Subject: Re: Russian Cameras

The low cost of a Kiev 88 system allows people who could not afford a
Hasselblad system the ability to work with that style of camera which they
would not otherwise be able to do.

They may not be pros and not earn their livings from photography, but the
equipment allows them access to a versatile and expandable system which can
give them a nice avocation.

With the number of people rising who can repair these cameras and the
upgraded models available from www.kievcamera.com - the percentage of
reliable Kiev 88 cameras is also growing.

Once can see on the internet -  www.kievaholic.com
some excellent photography taken with such equipment and people who are happy
to be using it.

This is not to compete with professionals who can afford Hasselblad outfits as
they write them off against their businesses, do good work with such equipment
and do not even know that the Kiev world exists.

I met a talented small professional who used Hasselblad but could not afford an
assortment of extra backs which he would like to have.
I told him about the Kiev NT back available in a Hasselblad version for
$99 from Kiev Camera (new) and he was most enthusiastic about getting
these, just as others have succesfully used Kiev TTL prisms.

The NT back is an excellent product, with a flat film plane and an added
convenient feature of a slot to store the dark slide. There is a place for this
equipment in the pro world for Hassy users on a low budget who need
extra accessories.

- Sam Sherman


From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 01 Jan 2002 
Subject: Re: New Kiev 88CM instead of Old Bronica S2A?

Zhang,

Apparently Mike Fourman of Kiev Camera is now working with
Hartblei (now in Kiev) to upgrade and repair Kiev 88, 88CM and 60
cameras. I believe some or all of the Hartblei technicians come from
the Arsenal factory, know these cameras well and know what is wrong with them
that the factory does not do.

Hartblei has made upgraded parts and can finish the QC and adjustment the
factory does not do. This is an important difference which now makes
these cameras more practical than they had been in the past.

- Sam Sherman


From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 
From: "lanaya" papo@dcentral.com>
Subject: Re: Med Fmt Pre-sale CLA

--- In russiancamera@y..., Frank Weir frankweir@y...> wrote:

Hello:


> Could someone list them for those of
> us who are fairly new to the list? I know of just one
> Ebay Russian seller who has his own repair services
> and I assume he would be one. Others?

Well, this is what I know.

Vikentiy from from www.sovietcamera.com.ua, offers repairs and sells
them as priluk on ebay.

I am confused with Michael Fourman from kievcamera, does he fix or
does he replaces?

Luis


From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 
From: Kevin Kalsbeek krkk@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Med Fmt Pre-sale CLA

Hi

Mike has a repairman that he contracts with, I believe. If necessary, he
replaces.
 
Kevin


From kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001
From: flexaret@sprynet.com
Subject: Re: CZJ lenses ...

Olivier,

The problem with the slow speeds on Kiev 88CM - follows and how to resolve
it.

Remove the Kiev 88CM lens and look straight into the opening of the camera
from the front.

On the bottom you will see a screw - remove it - but keep it.

This will allow you to remove a small cover at the bottom of the film
chamber which covers seeing the gears at the bottom of the film chamber.
Pry it out with a small screwdriver.  Put this cover away someplace - you
do not need it. Now replace the original screw as this holds the main
bottom cover plate in place.

All standard Kiev 88 and Salyut models do not have the small extra front
cover - so you can normally see the gears and allows a better air flow
around the slow speed propeller (governor).

The problem you have is that the slow speed gears must run without
lubrication and be absolutely clean and the two main shutter gears must
have lubricant. The two main spinning gears spin lubricant onto the slow
speed gears and gum them up so that they do not always turn.

To solve this-

Holding the camera in front of you - you will notice on the lower left the
two main shutter gears - avoid doing anything with them at this time. You
will note on the lower right a group of brass smaller slow speed gear
mechanism- this we will work on.

Put some regular alcohol in a small dropper bottle - put a few drops of
alcohol into the slow speed gears - quickly turning the camera with the
open front down - so that the extra alcohol drains out - now wind and
release the shutter twice set at 1/2 second - which should work fine.

Put the camera on a desk or table in a pan so that the alcohol does not
ruin anything and allow the excess to drain out. Tilt the camera so that
the side with the wind knob is up - so that alcohol will not get on the
two main shutter gears.

The reason that the camera is pointed with lens mount down - is so that
the alcohol will not get on the cloth shutter curtains and ruin them.

Allow camera to stay in this position for the alcohol to drain out for 2-3
hours. Then operate the slow speeds - they should work fine all of the
time.  If they still do not work all of the time - repeat the alcohol
process.

If this ever happens again (now that the front cover is permanently off)  
you can repeat the alcohol process.

If all of this is annoying - you might have to send the camera to Mike to
have all of the lubricant cleaned from all of the gears and some of his
new teflon lubricant put on the two main shutter gears only.


Of course, we still do no know that if in time - the same thing will
happen and the alcophol process is needed.

My only other concept is that someone should design some internal cover
which helps to separate the two main shutter gears from the slow speed
gears. I don't know if this is completely possible as the two are linked
in the middle where there is a connecting mechanism between them.

Good luck,

Sam Sherman


From Kiev Mailing List:
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 
From: flexaret@sprynet.com
Subject: Re: Re: Kievv 88 repairs and oiling

Kelvin,

Oil should NEVER go on the Kiev 88 slow speed escapement/braking/gearing.

If this is a camera with cloth curtains be careful - with metal curtains
continue.

(If the camera has cloth curtains the camera must always be pointed down 
to
allow the alcohol to run off away from the curtains.)

Put some alcohol in a dropper bottle and put a few drops on the slow speed
gearing pivots.

(The slow speed gears appear on the lower right when you look into the
camera with the lens off from the front.)

Operate the shutter a few times and then a few more drops of alcohol.

Turn camera with lens mount down to drain off the alcohol - slightly 
turning
the body to the side the slow speed gearing is on to avoid the alcohol
getting on the two main shutter (stacked gears).

Let the camera dry for 2-3 hours and operate the shutter 25 times or more.

If this still does not work. Repeat process again.

If it does not fix it - the camera needs a good repairman as the other
slow speeds will not work later on and it will also affect the even
curtain travel at fast speeds.

- Sam Sherman


From Kiev88 Mailing List:
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 
From: Kevin Kalsbeek krkk@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Kiev 88CM and Focus Solved

Miguel,

I have been watching the manufacturing date game for years, and to be honest,
can see no validity to it.

There are a larger number of defects per hundred in the K88s vs a Japanese or
German camera, But, it is my opinion, and that of others, that the majority of
failures in the K88s are caused by operator error----- it only takes one!

I have 4 88's, an '89 (body), a '95, a'97 VRN (Hartblei) which originally had
cloth curtains, and the shutter speeds soon went bad, and  I had it
retrofitted- at no charge- with black metal curtains- note that Hartblei does
not recommend the cloth curtains(!) , and a '97 body, which an acquaintance
gave me after he bought it off e-bay- against my advice, and of course, it was
dead. Leonid Treskunov repaired it and it is now a nice smooth, useable 
body.

IMO, the stupidity of people who will not take the time to read and follow 
the instructions should not be blamed on Kiev, BUT--- it would be a good thing if
Kiev could "idiot proof" the cameras. I suspect that this would require a major
redesign, which I have no doubt there is no money for.

To this end, I wrote documents that Mike Fourman and Genna Kaplan send out with
their cameras, but if they are not read and followed, who is to blame, but the
USER?

I guess that I have had exceptionally good luck- at least, according to some
folks, but I do not think so- it is how the camera is used, or perhaps more
accurately how it is misused.

My advice: pay no attention to the dates. Both of my K60s were from "good"
years, and both had more problems "out of the box" than the the K88s I bought
new. They are now fixed, and are treasured tools for me.

Get a Kiev, LEARN how to use it, and trouble shoot it as required, and it will
be found worth the investment- even if some work is required.

Are mine PERFECT??  No, but they do a fine job at what I require them to do,
which makes me happy. What more can I say?

Miguel- don't take my comments personally, ok? They are intended to be
"general".

Kevin

Miguel Gonzalez wrote:

> Hey Kelvin,
> I guess that just goes to show you.  You can't praise or bad mouth a kiev
because it will make a liar out of you every time.  Congratulations on having a
dependable pre-90 post-82 camera.  I've found that every time I decide to "blow
hard" about something I think I know about, there's always someone to kindly
remind me that I could be wrong.  Anyhow, in our day and age, even if you have
a lemon, KievUSA or Mike Fourman can replace EVERY single moving part that's
defective and make it work.

> A while back on the Delphi Forums, I made the comment that kiev88's are as
much fun as a 1968 Mustang.  You can either cherry it out and have it
completely reconditioned to its original condition (or better) OR you can hot
rod that little sucker with mirror pre-release, cloth curtains, crank, two
kinds of mounts....the options are not endless, but they are plentiful.
Really, no one wants to pay 2 or 3 hundred bucks for something that they are
going to have to send right off to either be adjusted, fixed, or suped-up.
But, realistically, that's how you better your chances of having a more
dependable camera.

> Take it easy you guys and happy kieving.
>
> Miguel


From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 
From: Blanka007@aol.com
Subject: Re: Salyut, Salyut C or Kiev 88

tigerarm2000@yahoo.com writes:

>>I feel that the earlier Salyut(C)s were made without giving too much
 consideration to the production cost and time. They should be better
 cameras. >>

This is my observation as well. The older Salyuts, though not without quirks,
are really well made cameras. I have a Salyut and like how it handles and
looks. I had all never Kievs, like 6C, 60, 88 and Salyut-S (very similar to
Kiev-88) and with time sold them all - I did not use them and never liked
their workmanship.

Of course, a clean Salyut and its lenses (not compatible with the never
Kiev-88 lenses) are hard to find and this system, therefore, is not 
practical.


from russian camera mailing list
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 
From: nathandayton@netscape.net
Subject: RE: Salyut, Salyut C or Kiev 88

To Summarize:

Salyut: unacceptable, the lens mount is different

Salyut C: good choice, but the cameras are older and may require a CLA.

Kiev-88: good choice, but stick to the newer ones because the price will
be about the same as an older one. There is a newer model with the other
lens mount(K-60) but all of the lenses do not work.


Also consider the Kiev 60, it doesn't have interchangable backs but the
lenses are cheaper and the outstanding Carl Zeiss Jena lenses are
available. For the same price as the 88 and lenses you could probably get
a second camera or 1 more lens.

Nathan Dayton
www.commiecameras.com

heirphoto@aol.com wrote:

>Now for the second opinion question. Which choice here. Salyut,
>Salyut-C or Kiev 88 for medium format. O know none of these will
>replace my old Hassy 500CM or Superwide C but a complete outfit
>tallys up at less than a used body alone.
>
>Is one version more reliable than the other?


From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 
From: Bob Shell bob@bobshell.com
Subject: Re: Can I convert my Kiev 88 to Pentacon 6 mount

No, you can't.

I don't think the guys in Prague are making the conversion since they
come that way from the factory now.  The problem with a conversion is
lack of room.  If you somehow graft a Pentacon 6 mount onto the front
of a stock Kiev 88, you will have a great camera for closeups, but
no lens will focus to infinity.  The Kiev 88s made for Pentacon 6 lenses
have a mount that is flush with the front of the camera.

There are two versions: one, the original one, in which you put the lens into
the mount and turn the whole lens to lock in place.  These have a
release button added to the body for removing the lenses. The newer
version has a Pentacon 6 type mount recessed into the body and a
lever which sticks out toward the top which you use to rotate the
recessed locking ring.

Making either conversion yourself would require a lot of machining.

Bob

> From: mazar@minn.net
> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 
> To: russiancamera@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [russiancamera] Can I convert my Kiev 88 to Pentacon 6 mount
>
> I am wondering if I buy a beat up Pentacon 6 mount camera if I can
> take it apart and put it on a Kiev 88?  The guys in Prague do a
> convert - how is this done?  Any ideas?
>
> MJA



From russian camera mailing list:
From kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 
From: tigerarm2000@yahoo.com
Subject: Hasselblad back for old Kiev 88?


Hello everyone,

I know that someone here in China modified old version KIev 88's back
for Hasselblad by filing off 1 mm metal from each side of the gate of
the back. So that means a Hasselblad's back can be used on a Kiev 88
without any modifications because the gate opening of Hasselbald's
back is larger than that of Kiev 88'.

The reason why I asked this question is that if Kiev 88 can use
Hasselblad's back then the digital back for hasselblad could also be
used on Kiev 88. The 120 back is very expensive now, but may become
affordable in time.  I don't know if any one on this forum has any
experience of this combination?

Zhang


From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 
From: Bob Shell bob@bobshell.com>
Subject: Re: medium Format ?

Tim Moore at tim55ukuk@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> Are Kiev 88's that bad?   Which bits break first?
>
> Tim

Please don't confuse matters.  We were talking about the Kiev 90,
not the Kiev 88.  Kiev 88s are solid cameras and can be reliable if
treated well.


Bob


From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 
From: Bob Shell bob@bobshell.com>
Subject: Re: medium Format ?

Tim Moore at tim55ukuk@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> Phew!!!   You had me worried for a moment!   I hope to
> buy one in April!
>
> Many thanks for response!
>
> In two or three weeks I'll start negotiating for one
> with a genuine yak hair string parcel,
>
> A great relieved,
>
> Tim


I have three Kiev 88s of various vintages and one Hartblei 88 which are
mine, and one Kiev 88cm on loan from Mike Fourman. My first Kiev 88 came
from Continent Wide Enterprises in Canada.  I just saw them at PMA and
they're still selling them.  My other two came from Kiev USA and are
smoother than the first one, and have the more convenient Kiev 60 lens
mount.  My Hartblei came from Hartblei via Kalimex, and they sent the wrong
lens mount.  They've been promising for two years now to send the right
camera to Mike Fourman so he can make the exchange.  It is the smoothest
of the lot, smoother than many Hasselblads I've handled.  The new Kiev 88cm
is almost as smooth as the Hartblei and has the new style film magazine
which is much easier to load and has a multiple exposure switch.  It also
has Kiev 60 mount, so I can use my CZJ lenses.

Bob

From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 
From: Bob Shell bob@bobshell.com>
Subject: Re: medium Format ?

Steven Berkowitz at murray1953@yahoo.com wrote:

> When you state the new 88cm is almost as smooth  as
> the Hartblei, are you speaking of an out of the box
> 88cm, or one purchased from Kiev, which has been
> "tuned" up a bit?

No, I said it was on loan from Mike Fourman, and it was fresh out of
the factory box, nothing done to it.

Bob


From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 
From: Bob Shell bob@bobshell.com>
Subject: Re: medium Format ?

Tim Moore at tim55ukuk@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> Thats very interesting.   Are Kiev 88's still in
> production?  Is quality rising or falling with time?
>
> Same question for Kiev 4's

Kiev 88s are still in production.  Quality is improving.

Kiev 4s are out of production, sadly.

But there is something very interesting on the horizon....
Don't ask because I can't say more.

Bob



from russian camera mailing list:
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 
From: "J-2" nikitakat@edsamail.com.ph
Subject: Re: RE: Salyut, Salyut C or Kiev 88

Hi Nathan

This is a factor I've been considering- old  K88 vs new K88.  Felt that older
ones are better in terms of materials used, as well as the way they are built.
I'm a bit wary of anything built after the USSR collapsed - with market forces
setting in, there is a possibility that the factories have resorted to using
cheaper materials and production shortcuts to remain afloat.  From what I
perceive from the old system, products were not made and priced according to 
market demand.

Another member of this list, Gabby, and I have dissected some K88's of various
vintages- the gears and springs found in mid-80's bodies are superior to those
made in the early 90s. We have about 8 K88 bodies of various vintages.
Recently, we each  bought 2000 bodies, and both cameras failed almost
immediately after receiving them.

Jay

russiancamera@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>Kiev-88: good choice, but stick to the newer ones because the price will be
about the same as an older one. There is a newer model with the other lens
mount(K-60) but all of the lenses do not work.
>Nathan Dayton
>www.commiecameras.com




from russian camera mailing list:
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 
From: Marc James Small msmall@roanoke.infi.net
Subject: Re: RE: Salyut, Salyut C or Kiev 88

J-2 wrote:
>This is a factor I've been considering- old  K88 vs new K88.  Felt that
older ones are better in terms of materials used, as well as the way they
are built.

Arsenal was a major supplier to the USSR military and, as such, had access
to a steady supply of really fine materials.  Once the USSR went away, this
supply dried up rather precipitously and Arsenal has had to compete in the
world market for many of its materials.

Every Kiev-88 I've owned has been a USSR product and a domestic one
(Cyrillic script only) at that.  They have been extremely rugged and have
given fine service.  The Kiev-60's I've had just couldn't compete, though
they were interesting cameras.

Marc
msmall@roanoke.infi.net



from russian camera mailing list:
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 
From: Marc James Small msmall@roanoke.infi.net
Subject: Re: Salyut, Salyut C or Kiev 88

 tigerarm2000@yahoo.com wrote:
>I have tried to repair the first Kiev 88 that failed before I
>finished the first roll of film and found that the cameras' design
>was too complicated that best materials and most precision parts as
>well as skilled assembly job are required to ensure a smooth
>operation of the cameras. Many professional camera repairmen said
>Kiev 88 was more difficult to repair than a Hasselblad.

Zhang

There is a Kiev-88 repair manual available in an English edition.  I got
mine through the late and lamented KIEV REPORT but I believe these are
still available.

Marc
msmall@roanoke.infi.net



from kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 
From: flexaret@sprynet.com
Subject: Re: It sure is quiet out there.....By the way...


Kevin,

I have the Kiev groundglass back which is accurate and I think a good
product.

I have heard that others have had these backs which were out of proper
alignment.

Keeping this in mind, the most true way to check what the film is seeing -
is with an NT back and a groundglass at the film plane.


I have epoxeyed a loupe to the shiny side of this groundglass and it is a
precise device to use.

If I use in it a camera which has film bulging forward of the film plane, it
is only an approximation.

As I have tested my two NT backs and they keep the film very flat at the
film plane, the groundglass is then a very acccurate way of checking finder 
focus to what the film is seeing.

- Sam Sherman



from kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001
From: flexaret@sprynet.com
Subject: Re: Kiev 88 focusing problems

Miguel,

Let me be a little more exact about my comments.

In the era of 1990 all of the Kiev 60 and Kiev 88 TTL prisms were
optically out of alignment and persons with "normal 20/20 eyesight" had to
add a diopter lens to the finder viewing lens to see a sharp image.
Eventually Arsenal corrected those prisms. Some of the old prisms are
still around and if you cannot see a sharp image you know what I mean - or
it you unscrew the rubber eyecup you may find a diopter correction lens to
enable the prism to view properly.

They have a similar problem here, again designed by somebody at Arsenal
who wears glasses of one kind or another.

The new Kiev 88 Wiast Level finders are out of whack for normal vision.

I can see and focus normally without glasses or diopters with all normal
cameras. And, by comparison have no trouble focusing and seeing a sharp
image with the waist level finder and magnifier on a Bronica S2A.

There is no doubt that the finder magnifier on the new Kiev 88 Waist Level
finder is set for sharp focus not on the viewing screen but about 3/8"
above it. Yes, you can strain your eyesight to use this, but not well.

This has nothing to do with the split image or the microprism. Using this
finder on the older Salyut-C - this viewing screen has no split image or
microprism, just a clear center groundglass spot. To see the grain on the
groundglass and a sharp image at that point - the magnifier must be moved
closer down to the screen. You can see this by pressing it down and the
image is now sharper, but viewed at an angle.

Both the microprism and groundglass cannot be used with long tele lenses
or lenses stopped down to f5.6, f8 and smaller openings or used with a 2X
converter. That is why one must focus these on the outer plain groundglass
area with precise viewing, which this magnifier does not give.

- Sam Sherman




from kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 
From: flexaret@sprynet.com
Subject: Re: Help needed , friends ...

Olivier,

I assume you are talking about a Kiev 88 or Kiev 88CM.

I have done a lot of precise focus adjustment on Bronica S2A type cameras
and Kiev 88 type cameras- (The crispest-sharpest focusing screen I have is
on a Bronica C with center groundglass spot.)

Here are the possible focus problems on Kiev 88 type cameras. If you are
using longer telephoto lenses your camera has to be precisely adjusted.

1- Old Style backs - the new NT backs give a flatter film plane and are
more precise. The old backs can be out of alignment. With the old backs -
remove the insert - unscrew the 4 screws holding the pressure plate down
and remove the pressure plate. Under it you will see the steel spring
which pushes the pressure plate up - this gets pushed down from being held
down. Bend the steel spring up on both sides to push the pressure plate
further out, and replace it.

2- Focusing screen. The standard Kiev 88 screen is not accurate between
the split image, microprism and outer ground glass area - then can give
three different readings. Depth of focus with normal and wide angle lenses
stopped down can cover this up. These screens are good because they are
bright and are easy to change as they are a combination of grounglass and
plastic screen held in a metal frame. The focusing screen for the Salyut-C
is not as bright but has a central clear groundglass spot that is better
for focusing tele lenses with. This Salyut-C screen is in two pieces
groundglass and plastic fresnel - but it has small plastic spacers at the
corners (is not in one piece) and these can fall out if you remove the
screen to clean or adjust it.  I would like to replace the screens in my
Kiev 88 and Kiev 88CM with one with a central groundglass spot as I use a
lot of tele lenses and the other screen is poor for that purpose.

3- Camera alignment. A good Kiev 88 groundglass back is perfect for
aligning the focusing screen position - but some of these adapters are out
of alignment. I suggest using an NT back - remove the insert put the
shutter to B - open and put a 6x6cm piece of groundglass on the film rails
(with a loupe epoxeyed to it on the shiny side up). Then focus your tele
lens sharp on this screen. Now remove this and wind the shutter and check
the finder screen to see if it matches the focus the film plane is
getting. I would use the outer groundglass ring around the microprism and
split image. If they do not match you will have to adjust the finder
screen focus position. -


Remove your finder - unscrew the 4 screw clips holding the the finder
screen down. Then adjust the screws in the corners up or down (experiment
with a half turn each) and press the finder screen down and check with a
magnifier to see if you have it aligned.

4- Lens problem - Focus Shift.  If you have a 250MM f3.5 Jupiter with no
stop down lever and ar using it with a Kiev 88 or K88CM with no stop down
lever - you can only focus wide open and then the film gets the image from
the stopped down opening - which could have shifted to an out of focus
setting optically. I have removed the stopdown pin from my 250MM f3.5
Jupiter and use it at working aperture. I like to use f8 (which is close
to its optimum aperture of f8 to f11). I set the lens stopped down to f8
-focus at that setting on the groundglass area of the screen and shoot. My
results are razor sharp - sharper than I ever had with that lens when
focusing wide open - which indicates some focus shift.


There are some other concepts too - but these are the main ones.

Good Luck-

-Sam Sherman



From kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001
From: flexaret@sprynet.com
Subject: Kiev 88 focusing problems

Olivier,

In addition the some of the focusing alignment problems on Kiev 88 type
cameras, I am adding the following-


ALL OF THE NEW MODEL KIEV 88 WAIST LEVEL FINDERS ARE "OUT OF FOCUS"-

These new model finders (look like the new Hassy waist level finder) have
a larger magnifier lens than the old model finders - which almost covers
the whole frame.

I prefer to use the waist level finders on Hassy-style cameras rather than
the bulky prisms.

This finder magnifier lens is computed (for normal eyesight) to be in
sharp focus at a point about 3/8" above the groundglass screen, when it
should be sharp "at" the screen.

Yes, you can strain your eyesight a little bit to use this - but it is not
right.


Using the waist level finder on a Bronica S2A camera - I see the whole
screen perfectly sharp and it is possible, using the magnifier, to see a
"crisp" image.

Not so on the group of new Kiev 88 finders I have - all of them are off.

If you press down on the raised magnifier slightly you can see the
(angled) image slowly coming into proper "crisp" focus.

In the early 90s - all of the Kiev 60 and Kiev 88 TTL prisms needed a
diopter lens added for NORMAL VISION to see the screen sharply.

Eventually Arsenal caught on and improved this. It is not a problem with
the current prisms.

Arsenal must use older persons with eyesight problems to design things
like this.


I have three such finders on three different cameras and am trying to
figure out how to correct this.

What is needed is a mild minus lens over the magnifier.

On my Salyut-C there is an excellent clear center groundglass spot that is
great for focusing long tele lenses. The grain on that screen comes into
sharp focus when I angle the magnifier down slightly from its raised
position - but then it is at a slight angle.

At the moment that is the only solution to this I have as I don't think
Arsenal will send new lenses to me.

But, I am planning to ask Mike Fourman about this.

- Sam Sherman



From Kiev88 Mailing List:
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001
From: flexaret@sprynet.com
Subject: Re: focus problems ...


Olivier,

You have never said which camera you were using and which finder - that is
important.

To rule out some of the lenses are bad - you would have to try all of your
lenses on another similar camera.

Then if you have all the same good results from some lenses and
same bad results from some lenses - you can guess the problem is the
lenses not the camera.

If your camera gives you a sharp image on the 80MM lens at f2.8 closeup and at infinity-
viewed both on film or with a film plane ground glass and in the finder - I
would assume that depth of focus is covering up very little error.

The problem can be the lenses.

Or the film plane is not flat and varies from roll to roll.

To evaluate this better let me know which model camera, finder and back.

Best,

- Sam Sherman



From Kiev88 Mailing List:
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001
From: flexaret@sprynet.com
Subject: Re: back groundglass and others focus problems ...

Kelvin,

With Kiev and similar equipment - ALL of these problems can be true and at
once.


Thats what makes us great problem solvers, if we can solve most of these
problems and end up with repeatedly sharp photos.

For those who cannot stand all of the problems I suggest a good Bronica
S2A - which has been cleaned and adjusted by a pro. It will last a long
life of good results.

- Sam Sherman



from kiev88 mailing list:
Date: 10 Sep 2001 
From: M P Brennan mpbrennan@altavista.com
Subject: Re: Re: mayima adapter

While Mamiya lenses are certainly pricey, the M645 bodies are very
reasonable and can be had, in very nice condition, for about $150 on eBay.
The film inserts are about $50 each(which is in the ballpark for what Kiev
backs go for) and a PD metered prism can be had for around $150 (also in
the ballpark of a Kiev TTL Spotmeter).

It is true that you can't change backs on an M645, but if that is
important to you, you could always get a Mamiya 645 Super or 645 Pro,
instead.  I find that I rarely need to change film, mid-roll, and am
perfectly happy to be able to quickly reload simply by popping in another
preloaded insert.

-Mike




Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 
From: Bob Shell bob@bobshell.com
To: rollei@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
Subject: Re: [Rollei] SL66 or SLX, opinions? (was Rolleiwide? Who cares?)

Dan Kalish at kaliushkin@worldnet.att.net wrote:

> Bob, with all due respect, we have to take this with a grain of salt.
> Kievcamera CLAIMS to be their US agent.  Remember the Stolichnaya confusion
> where 4 US importers claimed to have exclusive rights.  (I think it was
> Stolichnaya).?  The former Soviet Union has mastered capitalism far better
> than we ever did.  


Nope, Hartblei says that Kievcamera is their US agent.  They've told me to
go through Mike rather than dealing directly with them.  They owe me a
camera and they're shipping it to him in one of his regular shipments.


Now Kiev is a different story.  Kiev USA (Saul Kaminsky) says he is their
official US distributor and has the documents to prove it, but Zavod Arsenal
will "wholesale" cameras to anyone who shows up at their door with cash
in hand!  So having a written exclusive distribution contract with them
really means nothing.  If they could just understand how self defeating this
is they might get somewhere.

Bob




From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 22 Feb 2002 
Subject: Re: Newbie: Pentagon Six question


Michael,

Some information for the record re- my Kiev and Pentacon cameras -
not 100% perfect-  (Look at the record)-

Pentacon 6TL - Have had this since the late 70s with no repair problems.

Hanimex Praktica 66 - Had since the mid 70s - some speeds are off and
now needs repair and adjustment. Have had a lot of use from this.

Praktisix II - Speeds need adjust now- I burned a hole in the shutter curtain
in the desert and had one curtain replaced.

Kiev 6C - Have since l985 - no problems

Kiev 60 - Have since 1988 - no problems

Salyut-C (since early 2001) - Had several defective ones from dealer
until I found one good one, now using it just fine.

Kiev 88/Crank -(since mid 2001) Had original defective crank replaced with
better "Hartblei" crank - everything else fine - now getting good use from
camera.

Kiev 88CM - Now using "Hartblei-Upraded" camera just fine - had earlier
cameras with minor problems, but dealer replaced the cameras rather
than fixing them - although the mechanics were generally fine.

Similar history with Kiev and Zeiss Jena lenses - although all are working fine
now.

So, you can see that none of this is 100%, but well within reason of how
all types of camera equipment can need repair/adjustment/cleaning etc.
I will have the few needing adjustment worked on. The others work just
fine and I am getting good results from them.

- Sam Sherman



From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 22 Feb 2002 
Subject: Re: Newbie: Pentagon Six question


I have used Pentacon 6 and Kiev 60 type cameras successfully since the 1970s.

I was always critical(!!!) of Kiev 88 type cameras, as I was involved with importing
them to the US, and we had a large percentage of defectives.

In 6x6cm I have always perferred the Bronica S2A type cameras - which are hard
to beat.

Last year, noting all the renewed interest in Kiev 88 type cameras, I went back
to them and found out the following-

1) The Salyut-C from the 1970s (predecessor of Kiev 88) - was a largely hand made, precision
camera and many of these are still around and working just fine. I have one and it works well.
 
2) The standard Kiev 88 with metal shutter curtains has been upgraded and improved
(by Hartblei and others)   with flocking to cut internal reflections, new internal parts,
quality wind crank and better lubrication and quality control. I have one and it works well.

3) The Kiev 88CM (which has been a "work in progress") steadily being improved, is a fine
camera which takes Pentacon 6 lenses, has cloth shutter, new wind crank and
internal improvements. I have one and it works well.

The above does not mean that there were not many defective Kiev 88 cameras and
defective Russian/Ukranian lenses for same. Some of these can be repaired and adjusted, 
some cannot.

However, of the good cameras and lenses there are many capable of superb results.

These are the facts as of this date. A few years back all of these improvements did
not exist.

- Sam Sherman




From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 19 Feb 2002 
Subject: Re: Kiev models - Film Flatness


Film Flatness in Kiev 88, Salyut-C, Kiev 88CM-

The Old Kiev backs had many problems, based on poor design to
poor construction. However, if one gets a recently made one of these old
style backs and tweaks all of its problems: including spring pressure,
the pressure plate not pressing the film fully foward, and others -
it is possible to get these old-style backs to give a very flat film plane and
very sharp results.

The new NT backs, which fit on all of the above cameras, both old and new, are
generally much better and much more precise. That is not to
imply that they do not need testing and some minor tweaking too.
However, if one has a good NT back, or has tweaked an average one,
the film plane possible with these backs is about as flat as it can get in
120 photography.

Add to this -a Kiev 88 type camera whose focus alignment tests really okay or
has been fully aligned (new) - and using MC Carl Zeiss Jena optics (on Kiev
88CM) or some of the better (and tested) Kiev/Arsat lenses -
then with a "sharp" film in the camera and the camera on a tripod -
one is capable of getting some of the crispest, sharpest photos in
medium format photography.

Yes, new Zeiss lenses for Hasselblad may test better in a lab as
having more microscopic contrast/sharpness.  However, this is of little to no
practical advantage, unless one is making scientific photos of
microscope slides or other "extremely" critical flat subjects.
For 95% or more of the average photography of three dimensional
subjects, the Kiev outfit explained above will easily deliver more than
adequate crisp/sharp results for any professional purpose.

Except for the wounds involved - of the egos of those who have spent
tens of thousands of dollars on new Hasselblad equipment, vs the
low hundreds of dollars spent for Kiev equipment. The new Kiev 88CM
and Kiev 60 cameras and lenses available from www.kievcamera.com
have been upgraded by Hartblei to perform well and not break down and
they can be used professionally. Add an extra body for $300 or less
and one's outfit is fully backed up.

I just returned from a trip to California, using only my upgraded
Kiev88/crank model - and shot many rolls of 120 film - all shots came out
perfect - no problems. However, that is not to imply that owners of large
studios who have the budgets to buy Hasselblad equipment and
write this off against high paying jobs, should not do so. Hasseblad
makes great equipment and has top lenses. This is only to state that there is a
low-end medium format market, as well as a high-end market
and when looking at final chromes or enlargements it is not easy to tell
which equipment took what.

If I had a high end studio, I would buy all new Hasseblad equipment, as my
expensive customers would expect that of my company, not my trying to
explain why I am using Kiev equipment. That's the way it goes.

- Sam Sherman




From: KelsoLundeen@hotmail.com (Kelso Lundeen)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: First impressions of MF / 501CM
Date: 18 Mar 2002 

> I have been looking at the Kiev Camera Web site, and it does seem to
> provide quite a bit of functionality for the buck.  I note, however,
> that the high-end system is starting to get up there in price ... $600
> for a basic system isn't exactly cheap, even if it seems _relatively_
> inexpensive next to a Rollei or a Hasselblad.

It's a steal.

I know people have a love/hate thing with the Kiev 88CM, but when you
consider the price of the camera, the lenses, and all the low-cost
accessories -- you come to realize that it's a pretty good bargain all
around.

Yeah, the cameras take some care and feeding. And for folks who don't
like to care and feed, then they're obviously not for you, low price
be damned.


But for me, I *like* the idea of an inexpensive camera that I can tote
around with me in the city to and from work. I do that on occasion
with my 88CM -- but I'm not sure I'd do that with a 501CM if I had
one.

Plus, I've discovered the joys of Russian 35mm rangefinders. Even more
addictive than Russian MF because the cameras are *really* low-cost
and -- if you get them from a decent source -- very high quality. But
here, too, people have *radically* different opinions. Lots of folks
claim that if it's not a Leica or a Contax, it's not worth it. I
dunno. I've got Feds, Zorkis, and Kiev rangefinders -- and while, yes,
they sometimes require some care to get going again -- they're really
addictive and take fantastic pictures. Plus, it's much easier to tote
around an $90 Kiev 4-AM or a Zorki 2 or Fed 5 than an "original" --
especially if you're concerned less with the collectibility aspect and
more with the simple (but boringly practical) *usage* aspect.

Still, I'd take a 501CM or M3 or M6 if someone gave me one. :)



From Kiev88 Mailing List:
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 
From: Miguel Gonzalez omgphoto@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: OT back lobotomy

Hola Luis...

As my OT backs started to fail me, I just went ahead and bought an NT back.

The best investment I had made in a long time.  Only $60 or so from Mike
Fourman.  It will make your old Salyut feel like it's brand new.  The operation
is smoother than the old backs and they seem to be more dependable.

Miguel


From Russian Camera Mailing List:
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 
From: "Robert Lilley" lilley@eclipse.net
Subject: RE: If Russian sold a camera for $2,000.-

Interesting concept.  However, intuitively I feel the "law of diminishing
returns" would come into play here.  If we consider the current state of
craftsmanship, technology and materials, would this improve by ten times for
ten times the price?  The "value" of these cameras lies in the current ratio
of quality to expense.  I fear that the increased cost of the item would not
be due to a higher grade of manufacture but rather the cost of a partner's
marketing and advertising in the west.

Rob



Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 
From: "S. Sherman" flexaret@sprynet.com, flexaret@sprynet.com
To: Robert Monaghan rmonagha@post.cis.smu.edu
Subject: Re: Kiev 88CM photo

Bob,

My info on which Kiev models are better-

The second early Salut models (with only 1/1000th top speed and no selftimer) are
supposed to be good. But I remember a dealer getting a large batch of them in excellent condition
and every one was jammed and at the time in the 70s no US repairmen could work on the camera.

The Salyut-C has a reputation of being an improved model with very well made
parts and establishing the correct and final "B" screw mount with auto
stopdown as in Kiev 88. Many of these are some of the best made of the Kiev
88 models (very similar to same) but they are subject to bad backs
causing internal winding problems. The criticism of the metal curtain still
applies.

The early Kiev 88 models (1980-1985/6) are known troublemakers, but good
ones may be found.

>From 85/86 on or later models shown in the US as 1988 on have the brass internal gears
and notched, not hill and dale, wind knob. Some of these are very good into the early 90s
and the fall of communism. From the early 90s to the mid-90s it was reputed
that anything could have been thrown together as a camera. That cameras with
Kiev in English are better than those with the name in Russian.

Also that cameras of the standard Kiev 88 model from the late 90s to date
are still better.

In my opinion the latest Kiev 88CM is a well made camera, but still not
perfect.

I cannot explain anything about Hartblei or Pentasix or Kiev USA versions,
but they are well spoken of.


The earliest Salut (Salyut) models have the same screw mount as Kiev 88 and
Hassy 1000 but the stop down mechanism is different for lenses with a
cocking lever and a part that pulls the lever back
into the camera. This is not campatible with the later Salut-C and Kiev 88
auto lenses.

Of course the above is my information and people with various cameras which
work well may have information in direct conflict with the above.
----------


From: kevin_i@my-deja.com (kevin_i)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Which Camera ? Mamiya or Kiev
Date: 31 Mar 2002 


Hi, Sherman.

If you only got your 88CM from Mike Fourman in December, you should
have no problem getting it fixed or replaced through him.

That said, are you sure you have the flash seated properly?  Or, have
you tried a different flash?

On the rare occasion that I've used flash with my 88CM, I usually put
it on the camera, take the film back off, and fire the shutter a few
times to make sure that a good connection is there.  Sometimes I have
to remove and re-attach the flash... I've had that with other cameras
too, so I don't think it's Kiev-specific.

By the way, if you got your 88CM in December, you might be able to put
a Sonnar on it already.  Take a look at your lens mounting ring...  Is
it all black?  Or are the inner surfaces, all except the outermost
ring, silver?  If they are silver, then someone has already machined a
bit of metal off it to take just about any Kiev or P6 lens you can
throw at it.

And, since 86mm filters are pretty hard to come by, I started going
with 95mm filters which are more common and don't seem to be a whole
lot more expensive.  I now use 95mm filters on my 180mm Sonnar and
50mm and 65mm Flektogons.  If you get a CZJ Sonnar, many of them come
with an 86/95mm adapter ring with the hood... unless it's one of the
later, shorter hoods which comes with no ring.

Good luck!

-Kevin
...




From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 07 Feb 2002 
Subject: Kiev models - Film Flatness


I learned from a veteran camera technician how to check film flatness in
rollfilm slr cameras. Remove the lens - load the camera with test roll of film
- used for this purpose.  Set the shutter to "B" and examine the film plane 
through the front of the camera on each shot with the shutter open. Use a plastic 
pen and probe the film surface to see if it exhibits any puffiness or "bulging" 
up from the pressure plate or any wavy un-flat areas. After doing this for a while 
one gets to recognize a flat film plane and unflat one.

Of course, this will vary from camera model to camera model,
type of film used and upgraded versions of older cameras.

Normally cameras exhibitng a very flat film plane are capable of
very sharp results with good lenses.

Here is what my tests have revealed on Kiev Cameras-

Kiev 88CM and Kiev 88 with new "NT" back - very flat film plane repeatedly so -
all frames on a roll of film and roll to roll.

Kiev 88CM and Kiev 88 - with old type Kiev back - very unreliable
from back to back and exposure to exposure on the same roll. Exhibits
puffiness on the film bulging forward and some wavy sections.
These older backs can be upgraded and flatness improved.

Kiev 60 (my 1988 model) - Some wavy areas on the first few frames-
some puffiness. Later added 3/8" wide flocking at the side edges of the film
aperture in back of camera. Generally much flatter film plane overall.

Kiev 6C (1985 model) - different film plane than in Kiev 60 as
it also takes 220 film. Added wide (about 1") flocking at film plane
and generally flat film plane on all exposures.


Kiev 60 types vs. Kiev 88 types on film flatness issues -

The interchangeable backs on the Kiev 88 types can experience
variances in specs and tightness to the camera bodies - which can cause focus
problems. The one-piece Kiev 60 types have no back variations to deal with and
should have better focus integrity.

The "NT" backs have a newer design than the old Kiev backs,
in which the pressure plate presses the film solidly against two thin rollers -
at the top and the bottom of the frame - of the back
frame aperture. This helps to stretch the film taut and give a flat
film plane - even though the curved path design of the NT back has been known
to cause unflat film in other cameras. The straight across film path of the
Kiev 60 types lacks the curved path of the Kiev 88 backs - and helps to deliver
flatter film in this way.

My experience shows me that while the above works in theory-
this varies from each individual camera - one to another and the
type of film used - thicker or thinner.

Make your own tests to determine what your camera can do.





Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 
From: Bob Shell bob@bobshell.com
To: rollei@mejac.palo-alto.ca.us
Subject: Re: [Rollei] SL66 or SLX, opinions? (was Rolleiwide? Who cares?)

Edward Meyers at aghalide@panix.com wrote:
> who are the Hartblei folks? Ed

Someone else already posted the website address.  They buy cameras from
Zavod Arsenal in Kiev and rebuild them from the ground up, replacing suspect
Kiev parts with their own.  I have a Kiev 88 they did and it is, if
anything, smoother operating than a Hasselblad.  They also do custom
conversions, like the lens I mentioned which begins life as a Mir 45mm
and ends up tilt/shift. Mike Fourman at www.kievcamera.com is their US
agent.  Their former agent in the Czech Republic was Kalimex (remember their
big displays at photokina?), but Kalimex went bankrupt last year.

Bob



From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002
From: "olivier" firefly@uio.satnet.net
Subject: kiev 90 ??

      i find this ...from www.commiecamera.com
      thanks to nathan dayton

      KIEV 90
      It has been said that you should always have a goal that is at the limit
of your reach. Unfortunately the KIEV-90 was just beyond the reach of the
factory. The vast majority of these cameras do not work properly. Production
started in 1987 and ended in 1990. This was a tremendously sophisticated
electronic camera considering that only mechanical cameras had been previously
manufactured. This is a semi-automatic or manual exposure camera. It has
electronic connection between the camera and the magazine to set the film
speed. I have found it to be quite accurate in the automatic mode. The lens
mount has been modified to allow the camera to read the aperture. There were
plans to provide a full range of lenses but if they were produced no one has
seen them. The lenses have a meter coupling prong. The camera uses two 3 volt
batteries.


            Technical Specifications

            Film Size: 120
            Image Size: 4.5X6 cm
            Dimensions:
            height: 10cm
            width: 12.5cm
            depth: 16cm
            Weight: 1536g
            Normal lens:MC Volna-3 80mm f2.8
            Lens Mount: B or 3
            Typical serial no: 8800025



from russian camera mailing list:
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 
From: Stephen Castello scastello@cfl.rr.com
Subject: Re: kiev 90 ??

One used to show up on ebay for way too much money.  From what I've read on the
Kievreport on Delphi, none of them worked.

Stephen


from kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 
From: Kevin Kalsbeek krkk@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Re: Lens mount identification

David,

Forgot to mention, you may need to have the shutter cocked, or perhaps
uncocked to facilitate lens mounting. Sometimes the stop down lever on
the K-60 causes problems, and who knows, perhaps on the CM also.
Be advised, that the old CMs were pretty touchy about which lenses they
would accept, though the new ones have supposedly had this corrected.
Looks closely and make sure that the lens locking ring is large enough
to accept the lens body, and also the stopdown lever on the lens is not
hanging up anywhere.

I think it is possible to get a newer lens lock ring from Mike F. to
accept more lenses very cheaply.

Kevin


from kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 
From: "rockcanyonrescue" rockcanyonrescue@yahoo.com
Subject: Kiev 88cm photos

Here are some shots from my Kiev 88cm test rolls.  I'm pretty
pleased with the system overall.

http://www.geocities.com/rockcanyonrescue/pics/66gal1.html

http://www.geocities.com/rockcanyonrescue/pics/66gal2.html



Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 
Subject: Re: [Russiancamera] re: 30mm costs arsat vs zeiss - $200 30mm vs
        $6k 30mm - markups...
From: Bob Shell bob@bobshell.com
To: russiancamera-user@beststuff.com

 Roman J. Rohleder at rohleder@rhrk.uni-kl.de wrote:
> I have read that the Kiev88 CM is actually build by Zavod Arsenal - as a
> competing offer
> against the Hartblei and other Modificated Bodies.

I believe this is true.  The one I have at present is very nice, but not as
smooth as my Hartblei.

Bob


from rollei mailing list:
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 
From: Serge Pontejos evanston.clinic@worldnet.att.net
Subject: Re: [Rollei] OT: Soviet cameras

Hartblei is a company in the Czech Republic that modifies Kiev cameras and
they have transcribed a good article series that appeared in Shutterbug a
few years ago.

http://www.hartblei.com/reviews/shutterbug/index.htm

This link goes to A Pentacon 6/Kiev site.
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Suite/1755/pentacon001.html


Commiecameras is a satisfactory if sparse link to information.

http://commiecameras.com/

Also Kievaholic is probably the most detailed page I've seen.  Even covers
the Leica/Contax copies tho in smaller scale.

http://www.kievaholic.com/

I got in on the east side with a Pentacon 6TL.  Some people have gone
eastern because of the Arsat 30mm/3.5 Fisheye for the Kiev 60/88cm.  The
shutterbug article suggests the Kaleinar 150/2.8 is a fine portrait lens.
Aside from those 2 there are no other really outstanding lenses, but if they
copy the Zeiss formulas they can't be all that bad (can they? :).

The true Zeiss Jena Biometars and Sonnars and Flektogons only fit the
60/88cm, and there are some incredible teles by Meyer-Gorlitz.

The Kiev 60's a bit like a Pentax 67 but in square format (the Pentacon 6 is
the east german version of the kiev 60 tho with a slightly different
design).  The 88CM basically a Hassy 1000f and it can fit the kiev 60
lenses.  The original Kiev 88's have their own unique mount and have heard
they are notoriously unreliable, but I haven't tried to use one so I can't
honestly say.  If you are going strictly soviet the 60 or 88cm might be the
way to go.  If you spot a pentacon 6 tl or an exakta 66 model III put those
into consideration.

As far as the P6 I've had it for about a month.  Film transport is the
biggest worry.  I'm not clear if it is too much film pressure or not enough
but it's best to tape the beginning of the 120 roll to the taking spool. 220
film is just about useless because of these transport problems.  I bought it
to back up my Rolleicord (There! I'm on topic!!! :D) as the "black and white
camera" for a wedding (It's my first paid gig from a friend) and haven't
gotten the film back yet.  I ran an old roll of 220 and spacing got better
towards the end but I'm still struggling with getting it to count film
spaces correctly.  The 2 rolls of B&W; 120 I ran thru seemed to be ok.

If you spot a P6 and go for it, beware of accidental tripping of the shutter
because they use the Hassy/Mamiya style strap mounts and the metal clip can
trip the shutter due to its proximity. The shutter lock on that camera is
now my friend.

If you have Nikon mount lenses I just spotted the Kiev 19M on Ebay also.

-Serge




From: "Tom" seaskate@attbi.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 88MC
Date: Mon, 06 May 2002


"CPZ" zzzzzzzzzzzz@hotmail.com wrote 
> Hello,
>
> Are these MC models any good? - I know the 'old' 88's could be a little hit
> and miss and unreliable.
>
> TIA


ALL Kiev models *can* be hit or miss, but when you *hit* they are grand
indeed for the prices you pay.  The camera bodies are fine if tuned up
(Hartblei), problematic if not.  As a fairly new convert to the Kiev system
(which is probably the largest medium format SLR system in the world), I
posted the following to the Kiev Group board not long ago:


-------
Just wanted to relate my entry into the Kiev world. I probably did things
wrong, but, however infrequently, ignorance sometimes pays off. Even a blind
hog finds an acorn once in a while (old southern term) :)

My research began as I wanted to re-enter the medium format arena and I
wanted more than just a box with one lens. I went looking. And promptly fell
in love with some wide angle images during my research and wanted a camera
able to provide that 'look'. I REALLY wanted it.

I should point out that at this point in my life I am fortunate enough to
say that I do not have to look attentively and longingly at every nickel
before it is spent. However, when I priced the glass available for
Hasselblads and Rolleis in 30mm focal lengths, I took pause. A looooong
pause.


There had to be a better way, so...

I purchased a Hartblei modified K688 Studio Master on eBay from a seller I
had never dealt with before known as "sp314" (I told you I was ignorant).
His name is Yaroslav and I now mention him specifically because he was
absolutely truthful about the condition of the camera (mint) and conducted
himself in a manner above reproach during the entire transaction.

At this point however, I was apprehensive to say the least. My money went to
the Ukraine and what was I to receive in return? In the interim, I read all
the horror stories... and became more apprehensive.

Here's "what I feared" and here's "what I got":

1. Camera DOA? No, it works perfectly, right out of the box. Smooth film
advance, no walnut crunching sounds, no mis-spaced or overlapping frames...
it just works.


2. Shutter off? No, I checked it out with a dozen rolls of Provia 100F (not
a film that is forgiving of exposure errors) and the speeds are right on. No
banding, no funny noises. The 1/1000 setting MIGHT be 1/4 to 1/3 stop slow,
but maybe not. I could have metered in error that much, which brings us to
the TTL meter...

3. Meter not calibrated? No, it works perfectly and is spot on as checked
against three Nikons, my handheld Sekonic and my friends Pentax Spotmeter,
as well as observing exposures made using the meter's values. This is over
its WHOLE RANGE which *astounded* me. Almost NO built in meter is accurate
(linear) over its whole range. I'll have to keep testing this as I *still*
find it hard to believe.

4. Light leaks? No. I have checked the two 6x6 backs that came with the
camera and they are fine. I have not checked the 645 back as the format does
not interest me and I will probably never use it.


5. Lens problems? No. They exceed all my expectations and are, quite
frankly, astounding. Even disregarding the low price. The following came
with the camera (all are P6 mounts):
f3.5/30mm Zodiak-8
f4/50mm Carl Zeiss Flektogon
f2.8/80mm Volna-3 MC
f2.8/120mm Carl Zeiss Biometar
f2.8/180mm Carl Zeiss Sonnar

They are smooth as butter, mount and lock as if sliding on oiled glass and
are worth many times their actual cost. Unbelievable.

6. Smell bad? Well, er, um... lets just say "smells different". Actual
story: I was shooting my first wedding reception with the Kiev (I know, I
know... but I had 3 complete Nikon backup and 'walkaround' systems on hand,
including digital. I said I was 'ignorant' not 'stupid') when an advanced
amateur guest asked about the Kiev. I showed her the contents of my camera
bag and she commented (after we talked for a while) that she LOVED the
'leather' smell! I thought she would actually drool on my equipment. Go
figure.

Which brings me back to the subject line.

We have GOT to keep quiet about these systems or EVERYBODY will want one and
prices will rise to reflect what they are actually worth! I hereby
respectfully request a 'silence' campaign be initiated at once. Do not
respond to Kiev bashing posts elsewhere and let those people stumble on in
ignorance (it worked for me:) )

We should now close this forum (ahem, now that I am safely subscribed, of
course) to all other 'intruders' and speak only in code.

Now I am going to the Kievaholic Klub web site and tell Kevin I have become
a confirmed Kievaholic myself and see if there is any hope for me.

By the way, I ordered my Nikon 8000 scanner from Adorama yesterday. Ordered
the glass film holder too.

I am not going to post any of the flatbed scans I have made so far as they
do not do justice to what is on the film (as viewed on a light table under
8x magnification). Just wait until I get that Nikon though. I'll probably
bore you to tears. :)

Tom

PS

Dr. Alexander Skorokhod of this forum is now helping me obtain another
Hartblei body (with the Rollei screen) and 4 additional backs. I guess I can
now be considered beyond redemption as an unapologetic Kiev enthusiast. :)


-------------



There it is.  I am not taking my own advice about being quiet.  :)

The quality of the "box" (camera) can be so so.  The GLASS is beyond belief.
I have since added to the lens collection above a very nice 250mm f3.5 and a
great 300mm f4.

You would not believe what I paid for them so I won't even post the stupidly
low numbers.  But I will say this, I have less than $1500.00 invested in
everything.  Not counting the three grand I just dropped at Ritz Camera for
my Nikon LS8000 scanner (Adorama was on backorder too long so cancelled my
order there and went with Ritz).

As I said in the message above, I am hooked on these lenses.  The value they
represent is unmatched in the medium format (or any other format for that
matter) world.

Tom



From: "Sherman" sherman@dunnam.net
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 88MC
Date: Mon, 06 May 2002

Hi,

I purchased an 88CM last December.  I purchased from Mike Fourman at Kiev
Camera (www.kievcamera.com).  I got the "basic" package from Mike, body,
waist level finder, spot meter prism, two 6x6 backs, 80mm Arsat.  I was
impressed with the quality of the lens right from the start.  I have not had
problems with light leaks or overlapping frames with either back.

Have I had any problems?  Yes, two.  First, the prism finder stopped
working.  I called Mike and he sent me a new one, no questions asked.  This
one works perfectly and was calibrated correctly when I received it.
Second, I recently discovered that my flash sync works only at 1/2 second.
I haven't called Mike about this since I don't use a flash.

Would I recommend this system?  Yes.  Purchase the body new from Mike (or
Hartblei) rather than used on eBay.  If I were doing it again today I would
be tempted to get the Hartblei Master model since it has mirror lockup and
supposedly the shutter speed selector is improved along with the tweaking
and rebuilding that Hartblei does.

Sherman


[Ed. note: more notes and tips from Sam Sherman - Many more thanks!!! ;-)]
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 
From: "S. Sherman" flexaret@sprynet.com
To: rmonagha@post.cis.smu.edu
Subject: Misc

Bob,

Just a few bits:

The link is now fine on the Bronica index page for the Bronica S2A vs Kiev 88 comparison. I think this is a
good piece for those wanting to start in Medium Format and interested in both. I think we also need some current             
price comparisons too (forgot this).  (Good Salyut C is generally $130-$200 and cheap way to
explore this world.)

FYI- The photo of the 400MM Vemar lens on that story turned out well. Just to tell you how I did it-
Not having a digital camera and not wishing to shoot film, develop and such- I just put the lens itself on my Umax 600 scanner and scanned the lens in
B/W mode. I then took the TIFF file into Color It 3.0 (LIke Photoshop) and changed contrast,  added sharpness etc.
and then put same into Adobe Photodeluxe to convert to JPEG and sent that to you. I think it was a
good experiment.

Kiev Camera (I think Michael Fourman) is selling Kiev 88CM (cloth shutter, Pentacon 6 Mount, new NT backs)
what they claim is exclusively from Arsenal factory (yet we see others selling it too). They also claim that
Arsenal is now only making these models and are now again making the Kiev 60, which had stopped because of
a broken mould. This new 88 model has an improved crank wind, which Arsenal claims is superior to the
Hartblei crank wind. Arsenal also claims improved wind gears and there is a new shutter release at an angle on the front
plus the front body casting has been improved/changed. This whole TTL kit with the camera, 2 NT backs, 80MM lens
etc. is about $500 from Kiev Camera. This is pretty good considering, and if the camera should work and hold up.....?

This would be the first major upgrade of this camera by the factory.

As you know, I had extensive involvement with Kiev 88 and Kiev 60 years ago. Have kept one Kiev 60 and one Kiev 6C
which are both excellent working cameras. These are also some of the models we revised with a snubbing spring on
the mirror which allows it to return to rest without bouncing back. (Borrowed this revision from Primarflex
and Pentacon 6). Roskcam in Netherlands also claims a similar revision.

Without it the mirror bounces after coming to rest the first time and this
creates a big shadow on the film when using long tele lenses (300MM) and
Macro.

I recently got a Salyut-C as I had heard they were better made than the later Kiev 88. Also following my original
research that most of these cameras (Kiev 88 and Kiev 60 etc.) were under-lubricated or poorly lubricated.
(Arsenal did not have modern space age lubricants) and they expected the user to polish the gears and pivots
from hard elbow grease, not lubricating grease. The Salyut-C I have is not an overused mess, but has had good use
and so it works really smoothly - smoother than the average Kiev 88 I have used/examined.

Salyut-C is now being sold as a rare camera, but one book I have claims that 30,000 of them were made.
There must be plenty of them out there. They have been claimed to be a superior, hand-made camera.

I will be continuing my tests and experiments with this model.

Best,

Sam


From: kevin_i@my-deja.com (kevin_i)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 88MC
Date: 6 May 2002


I've had a plain, un-upgraded 88CM since April 2001.  I've put
hundreds of rolls of film through it since I got it, and I've taken it
on two international trips.  There have been a few problems along the
way (easily solved or worked around), but overall it has worked quite
well and is still a heck of a bargain.

While things at Arsenal with the help of Kievcamera and Hartblei have
improved, they still aren't quite perfect.  I hesitate to recommend
Kievs to everyone because they are still a bit of a risky proposition.
 It really depends on you, your budget, your needs, and your attitude
about (flaky) cameras.  They can be great fun, or they can be absolute
misery.

You may have already seen it, but just in case you haven't, I'd like
to suggest my site at http://kievaholic.com/ -- and in particular, the
section titled "Should I buy a Kiev?".

-Kevin

> Hello,
>
> Are these MC models any good? - I know the 'old' 88's could be a little hit
> and miss and unreliable.
>
> TIA



from russian camera mailing list:
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 
From: Bob Shell bob@bobshell.com
Subject: Re: medium Format ?

anyaodesa at oui@paco.net wrote:
> Kiev 90 ?? I have never see one, but in pictures it looks very
> nice, If I do find one I will for sure try it first ,,,and maybe
> keep !

I have only ever seen two Kiev 90 cameras.  Oddly enough both were in shops
in London around 1996.  One was at Jessops shop across from the British
Museum and the other was as Classic Collection which uses to be right behind

Jessops on Pied Bull Yard.  Bot were kits with the camera and some
accessories, but aside from the eye level prisms I don't remember exactly
what was with each.  Neither was fully functional.  One did not work at
all, and one only on the manual settings.  Both were priced well in excess
of $ 1,000.  Both were gone on my next visit a few months later, so
someone must have been willing to part with that much dosh for them.

The only one I know of in the USA is in Saul Kaminsky's Russian Camera
Museum in CT.  I haven't seen that one, but Saul says it is like new and
perfectly functional.  He traded a Mamiya RZ 67 outfit for it.

I think there can't have been more than a few hundred of these ever made.


> I have put some picture of Odessa in file name Anya, maybe is
> interest for you to see where some of your cameras have come from
>
> Best wishes
> Anya
>
> ps:  because of many people say not so nice things about me I am
> serious think about make new ebay registration and just be known as
> Odessa photo or something, that way it is not important if I am boy
> or girl or even Yakk !

I really don't care who (or what!!) you are.  You could be a Martian doing
research on Earth for all I care!

I do know that I got the Kiev 15 I bought from you very quickly, and at a
very good price.  It is in exceptionally good condition and seems to work
just fine.  Both lenses are in excellent condition.  I'm a very happy
customer and will buy from you again, no matter what name you choose to
trade under.

Bob


from russian camera mailing list:
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 
From: "Keith Berry" keithberry@blueyonder.co.uk
Subject: Re: PINHOLES IN SHUTTER CURTAINS

The repair guy on the Olympus List recommends 'Liquitex' black fabric paint
applied to the film side of the curtains for pinhole repairs. He's from the USA
and I haven't looked for it here in the UK. Perhaps a Google search could turn
up a stockist in your area.

Regards,
Keith Berry



From Russian Camera Mailing List:
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 
From: Paul Shinkawa pshinkaw@yahoo.com
Subject: [Russiancamera] Commie Cameras site

On a subject more to our mutual interests, I read over
on Delphi that Nathan Dayton's site is down
indefinitly. His web host took a year's subscription
fee from him in March and then went South.

His financial situation won't allow him to imeediately
start up again.

-Paul



[Ed. note: thanks to Anthony Skirlick for sharing these diopter swapping tips again!]
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 
From: Anthony Skirlick the-go-between@thevine.net
To: "Robert Monaghan Medium format fit...." rmonagha@post.cis.smu.edu
Subject: [Fwd: (no subject)]

Robert...

since you do medium format....along with Yashica Mats, RB67's, M645's,
Holgas (toy) , but I also own some Kiev stuff which you guys probably
don't even consider cameras since you appear to be a high end type of
outfit...but just in case....I forwarded this to Mike Fourman (who is a
nice guy)  a while ago today  since the circular Nikon diopter is like
aspirin at this point in solving many diopter problems along with the
more traditional rectangular Nikon one I mentioned..  Anyway the Kiev
88cm metered view finder along with all the other Kiev products do not
have diopters in the United States even though all current Kiev cameras
are machined for them...but it looks like all the dealers don't want to
aggressively track them down and import them.

Diopter adjustment IS a big deal and as you mentioned when the baby
boomers me included reached our 40th birthdays, we all went semi-blind
en mass..

Anyway...this little discovery here was just as important as my M645
discovery...all taking place within an hour...like I said these Nikon
diopter are the cure all...like aspirin....more and more uses are
cropping up with them!!!!!!


Hope you can use this post too!!!  The Kiev 88cm prism finder is really
pretty neat BUT there was NO diopter available....my work around here
was as if it was a near custom fit for the Kiev....REAL SIMPLE!!!

I am sure there will be hype purists out there who might discount my
suggestions but you might want to try these out yourself..!!!!

Anthony Skirlick
-----
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 
From: Anthony Skirlick the-go-between@thevine.net
To: Michael Fourman bdmphoto@msn.com
Cc: "John C. Valverde" john.valverde@verizon.net
Subject: (no subject)

Michael,

Good news...I discovered something that may assist you in regards to
diopter corrections on some of the Kiev's..


On the Kiev 88 PDS eye level prism  finder I found that  a Nikon diopter
fits!!!!...Simply unscrew the eye piece and insert a Nikon diopter
(various formulations are available) . Once it is inside and placed into
the hole it is nearly a perfect fit...then you simply screw back on the
eye piece/rubber eye cup and the whole thing stays firmly in place!!!
There is no machining or doing anything else...IT WORKS.....the skew
number on my 2+  Nikon FA-FE2-FM2-FE-FM diopter is 18208 02933 4...and is 
available through B&H;  (this SAME model fits all Nikon F2 prism finders by-the-way).  
It is made of metal and is round and is very sturdy.  I tested close
focusing on written material with my glasses on and this diopter
arrangement and it is the same focus as my glasses...exactly the same.
It seats perfectly into the Kiev metered prism finder!!!

This same diopter can be placed in the eye level finder of the Kiev 60
with super glue around the edges and works fine as a diopter
adustment...you simply glue it to the front piece where your eye would
look....this round Nikon diopter will not seat inside the viewfinder
with the eyepiece screwed back over it and locking it in place like the
Kiev 88 finder.  With some machining, I guess you could do it..


I am sure this information ESPECIALLY on the Kiev 88 is very important
and you might order this yourself from a local camera store if you did
not want to go through B&H; and check it out yourself.  It works.  Then
you could offer it from your own company and I am sure your
customers would appreciate it.  I have not seen this posted anywhere
by-the-way...  I could not believe the answer had been here all
along....

The seating of this round metal Nikon diopter on the Kiev 88 eye level
spot meter finder that comes with the package is perfect...no vignetting
or anything once it is inside and the resecured by screwing back on the
eyecup rubber/metal part!!  And like I said...every imaginable
formulation of diopters is available!!!!

Hope this helps you, Mike!!

I am still awaiting your availability of the 220 back for the Kiev 88
and if you have any used 120 mm P lenses..

Also...have you ever heard of anybody using 220 on the Kiev 60????

Cordially,

Anthony Skirlick
Valencia, CA.



[Ed. note: this is actually the Tanto parts list scans, see postings below...]
From camera fix mailing list:
Date: 25 May 2002 
From: camera-fix
Subject: New file uploaded to camera-fix

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the camera-fix
group.

  File        : /kiev88 manual.zip
  Uploaded by : bargemaster12000 
  Description : kiev 88 repair manual

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/camera-fix/files/kiev88%20manual.zip


To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

bargemaster12000 bargemaster12000@yahoo.com


From Camera Fix Mailing List:
Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 
From: Bob Shell bob@bobshell.com
Subject: Re: RE:KIEV  88 REPAIR MANUAL

Ron Schwarz at rs@clubvb.com wrote:
>> When I downloaded it, I also got an error message. Then I renamed the
>> file to "kiev88.zip" and it unzipped fine. Seems my system didn't like
>> the %20 in the name.
>
> No joy.
>
>> Also, check the file size. It should be exactly 2359074 bytes. If it's
>> not, then it got corrupted or truncated and will not unzip.
>
> 2,132,787 bytes here. Looks like Yahoo's web server is brane-ded.  If it
> doesn't have the cycles available to send a clean binary file, it should
> abort with an error message instead of sending garbage.  What a class act,
> sheesh.  I don't have this problem on any other sites, and I *consistently*
> get it on *Yahoo*.


Just go to BestStuff and you can download either the original version or my
cleaned up version with no hassle.  Just open the message and click on the
file name.  Ignore the error message in the post.

BTW, it is *NOT* a repair manual.  It is the parts catalog.  It will show
you all the parts but doesn't tell you a thing about installing them or
adjusting the camera.

Bob



From Camera Fix Mailing List:
Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 
From: Don Doucette camera911@cogeco.ca
Subject: Re:KIEV  88 REPAIR MANUAL

Hey Everyone...

I have converted the images to a tidy little Adobe Acrobat file 4.68M.
Go here and get it...

http://www.cgocable.net/~carguy/

Just click on the Nikon logo on the main page.

Don



From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace.medium-format
Subject: Re: QUESTION: KIEV 88, ARE THEY WORTH USING?
Date: 23 May 2002



Kiev 88 cameras are a mixed bag. Some work excellently - some can be defective.
They are not for the weak or timid.

See great results taken with them on- www.kievaholic.com

The early version (a/k/a Salyut-C/Kiev 80) can be an excellent, precise
hand-made camera if it has been cleaned, adjusted and properly lubed.

The latest model Kiev 88 cameras ( year 2001) sometimes come with crank wind
and internal flocking to avoid reflections - these can be excellent. Even more
recent Kiev 88CM models (from www.kievcamera.com) have been upgraded by
Hartblei to a most precise instrument. Hartblei also makes their own upgraded
models, sold by Kiev Camera in the US, which get high marks from users.

As for the average garden variety Kiev 88 - its a tossup if its good or not.
The seller should warrant it working correctly - or buy it as-is and
send it out for repair/upgrade then it can be good.

-Sam Sherman


From contax mailing list:
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002
From: Steve Levit salevit@yahoo.com
Subject: RE: [Contax] OT: macro with converters

The teleconverter in question is for the Kiev88 line
of cameras.  Their 2x teleconverter is supposed to
allow the glass to be removed so that the barrel can
be used as an extension tube.

Steve L.



From: fotocord fotocord@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Cheap Intro Medium Format Camera?
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: Thu, 30 May 2002


Bill Van Antwerp wrote:

>
>  Cheap, great lenses
> available and don't listen to people who don't like it unless they have
> used it.
>

I think I can speak about these as I am a user!

They can be good and they can be bad. I bought a brand new one from a US
retailer, it ended up with bad shutter banding within months and the flash
sync died. Sent it back for another, it had a maladjusted back latch and
after I got the back to stay closed (a very minor adjustment), the shutter
on it was worse than the first. I told the guy the story then I was
informed  the warranty was voided because I adjusted the latch! I suppose
if the quality control was reasonable on these I could understand but on a
Kiev? Anyway it's at another shop getting the shutter repaired but may be
junk. That was a wasted $300.

 That said I bought an old used one from russia for $50 and it works fine.
I then spent the extra money and bought a new hartblei returnable MLU model
and so far it works really good and feels much smoother than either of the
other ones I have used.. My advice is either get a used one (that is really
used not new old stock as at least a used one worked well at some point!)
or get one from hartblei that has really been checked out. The people
saying they are selling "checked out cameras" in my experience aren't
checking them. Sure they MAY give you another one but how many will you
have to go through to get a good one? The last one I got a blind man would
have seen the back pops open when you fired the shutter.

The optics are wonderful and cheap. I've never used a lens as good as the
180mm f2.8 MC sonnar in any format and many of the other optics are really
good. The 30mm fisheye is cool, the teleconverters are VERY good and it's
fairly easy to "hack" almost any other lens to work on them as well. I made
an adapter to use a 1920's 150mm f4.5 tessar on mine. I love the way it
handles and like the 6X6 format. I use the waist level finder most of the
time but the TTL meter is great for macro work with a bellows and an
enlarging lens or a 35mm lens reversed.  It can do things most of the other
cheap level cameras can't and even things some of the high end ones can't
or at least without spending thousands to do it.

The problem is getting a good body that works right. If the optics weren't
so good and at a price I can afford, I would have given up on these long
ago. If you're looking for a camera to use without testing and maybe
sending off for repairs before you can use it, look elsewhere. Unless of
course you're one of those people who are lucky in life as some people seem
to be. I sure wasn't but still think it was worth the trouble to get a
working system I could afford. Still isn't as cheap as some people would
lead you to believe to get a "working" system as the lenses normally need a
CLA to work right (lucky I can do this myself) and like I said the camera
bodies will probably need work too even if they are new.

If you really want to just shoot using a cheap camera get a minoltacord.

--
Stacey


From leica topica mailing list:
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 
From: Mark Kronquist mak@teleport.com
Subject: Re: [Leica] OT Kiev Cameras

Ernest Nitka at enitka@twcny.rr.com wrote:

> I'm thinking of getting a MF camera from Kiev USA - anyone on the list done
> business with them and is there one model better than the other i.e. 6 x6
> better than their 645?   Any thoughts appreciated.
>
> Ernie nitka

Kiev USA charges a premium but they do back up their cameras. In the past
buying a Kiev was more challenging. I have had great luck buying from Frank
(orders300@aol.com) Jake (jake@bluemooncamera.com) and Igor at Russian
Camera Exchange in Berkeley. 

Mark


From Hasselblad Mailing List:
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 
From: Mark Kronquist mak@teleport.com
To: hasselblad@kelvin.net
Subject: Re: [HUG] RE: Kiev's : )

My 2 cents in 1993 I visited Kiev and the Kiev factory. I had them build one
for me it has performed like a trooper...so well in fact that I imported
hundreds of Kiev cameras for years and had very good to excellent results.
My DOA rate was about 5-7%

Keep in mind that a Kiev may look like a Hasselblad but it is not one it is
a copy of the 1000F (I have and use one of these as well). Kievs do not have
the smooth function and the elegant fit and finish we expect of a modern
Hasselblad...treated properly (just like a 1000F) they are capable of taking
wonderful images. They are also a great way to explore things we mere
mortals could never afford like the 30mm fisheye.

The later Kievs are better. (first two digits of SN are year made) from a QC
standpoint

While I no longer import them (the Eastern Europeans discovered ebay) Jake
at Blue Moon Camera has a few bits left in stock 503 978 0333.

Mark


From: "Tom" seaskate@attbi.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Cheap Kievs from Russia - risk assessment
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002

steven.sawyer@banet.net wrote
> It seems to me that Kiev 60 prices have been falling on eBay with the
> flood of kits coming in from cash starved Russia (and other Eastern
> European Countries).  I know that folks here have insisted that people
> like me not "cheap out" and go the kievusa way.  But really what's the
> risk in dropping $100 to $200 on a K60 from overseas.  I mean the camera
> isn't going to blow up is it?
>

One "overseas" option you might want to consider, for more reasons than one,
is buying from Hartblei.  They are a company specializing in taking these
cameras and completely reconditioning them (new out of the box).  I have a
Hartblei 688 SM and it bears NO resemblance (other than external) to the old
Kiev 88 upon which it is based.  It is a reputable company and I believe it
would be a low risk transaction.

www.hartblei.com

I have no financial interest, just a satisfied user.

Tom




Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 
From: Mark Kronquist mak@teleport.com
To: hasselblad@kelvin.net
Subject: Re: [HUG] RE: Kiev's : )

My 2 cents in 1993 I visited Kiev and the Kiev factory. I had them build one
for me it has performed like a trooper...so well in fact that I imported
hundreds of Kiev cameras for years and had very good to excellent results.
My DOA rate was about 5-7%

Keep in mind that a Kiev may look like a Hasselblad but it is not one it is
a copy of the 1000F (I have and use one of these as well). Kievs do not have
the smooth function and the elegant fit and finish we expect of a modern
Hasselblad...treated properly (just like a 1000F) they are capable of taking
wonderful images. They are also a great way to explore things we mere
mortals could never afford like the 30mm fisheye.

The later Kievs are better. (first two digits of SN are year made) from a QC
standpoint

While I no longer import them (the Eastern Europeans discovered ebay) Jake
at Blue Moon Camera has a few bits left in stock 503 978 0333.

Mark



From: fotocord fotocord@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Cheap Kievs from Russia - risk assessment
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002


Ralf R. Radermacher wrote:
> There's no need to buy from Kiev USA either.
>
> Just get your K60 from Forman or Kaplan and Bob's your uncle.


These still depend on your luck.  From what I've experienced (and also read
from others) these 2001 models aren't checked out very well. The first one
I got had shutter banding issues from the first roll that just got worse
(after the DOF lever fell off and then the flash sync died). The last one I
got, the back popped open the first frame I shot! Obviously no one checked
this one out, even at the factory, much less afterwords. Once this minor
back latch issue was fixed/adjusted, I found the shutter was junk, worse
than my first one (Banding as low as 1/125 and also light leaks while
winding).

The $50 used from russia model I got works better than two different new
ones I got from Forman and in the end, paid to get it fixed elsewhere to
end up with a useable camera. So it cost me $450+ to get a new K-60 that
worked which is $60 more than a kievUSA camera and WAY more than the
hartblei version I got later which works perfect. Looking back I should
have throw it in the trash (or saved it for parts) and just replaced the
new body with a rebuilt hartblei one. Some people have had a different
experience/luck with these all black 2001 models and believe they are
flawless. Trust me, they aren't.


I'm not a kiev basher as I still use this stuff on a regular basis and love
the optics. I really like the camera as well, just wasn't impressed with
these 2001 versions Foreman is selling.  I also want people to know what
owning one CAN be like and what my experiences have been buying them at
different places. I can't coment on Kaplan but unless he is personally
testing/rebuilding these before they are sold, I wouldn't expect the
quality control to be any better than any arsenal product that isn't
totally rebuilt before the sale.

So either buy a cheap one from russia, hope it works right but if it
doesn't plan to spend $100-$150 to get it fixed or else just go ahead buy a
hartblei one that has been fixed before it is sold. You might luck up and
save the $150 but I see no reason to pay $300+ for a new one that likely
has problems when you can, for the same money, get one that has already
been rebuilt and REALLY tested by hartblei.
--

Stacey



From: "Tom" seaskate@attbi.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Cheap Kievs from Russia - risk assessment
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002

 Andrew Price wrote:
> > Do they really test them all, including the standard versions, or only
> > the ones they modify, like their models with special black or leather
> > trim, or mirror lock-up?
> >
> > In other words, if you order a standard Kiev from Hartblei, can you be
> > sure that it has been thoroughly inspected and checked?



This is a quote from their web site, so it seems the answer is yes to the
above.

Tom


The following operations are performed on marketed cameras or their parts
and included in the reworking or repair of Kiev 88 cameras:
1. Fitting an improved shutter braking mechanism for more reliability and
longer camera life.

2. Reassembling and adjusting shutter speed mechanism for precise shutter
operation and exposure times.

3. Fitting a tripod plate for more reliable shutter speed mechanism
operation when using a tripod.

4. Fitting the camera with light-absorbing internal coating for preventing
extraneous light from reaching the negative and causing contrast reduction.

5. Fitting a side shutter release button for smoother shutter release.


6. Reassembling and adjusting film advance mechanism and checking frame
spacing for smoother film advance.

7. Checking magazine light tightness. Replacing the frame if needed.

8. Calibrating camera body's and magazine's working distance and relative
position for body and magazine interchangeability.

9. Checking lens alignment, sharpness, aperture operation and focusing.

10. Disassembling prism viewfinder and eliminating prism lacquering defects.
Performing light gauging control and adjustment, fitting more reliable LEDs.

11. Complete camera inspection and serviceability test.



From: fotocord fotocord@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Cheap Kievs from Russia - risk assessment
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002


Mike wrote:

> There is one thing you can *count* on with any camera, they will *all*
> fail at some point.
> What is important is the length of time between failures *and* the
> availability of repair service.
> You will find more shops repairing Hassy's, Mamiya and Bronica equipment
> then Russian equipment.

The problem with repairs is: a CLA is more than the camera costs.. Kinda
like a low end VCR, it's cheaper to just get another one when they break
and why very few people work on kievs. I've decided that the lenses are
good enough to invest in a hartblei camera and so far it seems to be worth
it.

I have no bone to pick when people say these aren't the most reliable
camera on the market, they aren't. To blame them for a "lost vacations" and
proclaim them all junk is comical as I pointed out ANY camera can fail at
any point. Seeing as how a kiev body can be bought in good condition for
$100, it's silly to not carry a spare or two.

--
  Stacey



From: fotocord fotocord@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Deception and Diversion (KIEV)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 


ArtKramr wrote:

> I don't  know who it was that switched the what is wrong with KIEV thread
> to a what's wrong with HASSY thread, but he is a genius at deception and
> diversion.
>


 Speaking of deception Art, did you ever consider that maybe YOU jammed
that K88 you had problems with? Just like a blad, users that don't know how
to operate the camera  can cause the camera to jam or otherwise damage
it because they don't know what they are doing and didn't bother to read
the directions.  All K88's will be damaged/jam if you change shutter speeds
before you cock them and some models will be damaged/jam if you turn the
shutter speed dial counter clockwise. Somehow I can't imagine that you
would admit it if you had done this.

BTW try not plonking everyone who doesn't agree with you and you might be
able to see what is going on around you!
--
  Stacey



From: fotocord fotocord@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: stats on Kiev Re: Cheap Kievs from Russia - risk assessment
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002


Torsten Wiens wrote:

> "David J. Littleboy" schrieb:
>
>> My problem with this whole discussion, though, is that the Kiev isn't
>> competing with the Hassy (for my money, anyway), it's competing with
>> Bronicas and Mamiyas and Fujis.
>
> Just for the record: A new, all-black K-60 (propably by Hartblei) will
> be 459 EUR here in Germany, 499 with mirror prerelease.

Be careful saying this. Not all of the MLU models are by Hartblei and some
are just "normal" kiev-60's with a MLU button added. All the real hartblei
cameras I've seen are early 90's cameras (NOS) they have then been
modified. I ordered an all black one with their fancy leather and even it
was a 91 model that they repainted black, not a black 2000+ model. These
non-hartblei MLU models like the ones sold by kievcamera are the most
unreliable samples I've seen yet (lots of shutter and other QC problems).
You're much better off getting a used from russia sample than one of these.
The main problem with the earlier ones is frame spacing issues due to the
fact the russian film these were calibrated for is thicker than the film we
use here. A small piece of tape on the leader takes care of this problem.
The shutter problems these newer samples have can't be fixed this easily.

People selling kievs like to "infer" they have hartblei or "modified by
hartblei" cameras when the only way to get a real hartblei seems to be to
order directly from them. Having a MLU button hacked onto a body isn't the
same as what hartblei does to the cameras they sell themselves.
--
  Stacey


From: Torsten Wiens twiens@hrzpub.tu-darmstadt.de
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: stats on Kiev Re: Cheap Kievs from Russia - risk assessment
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002


fotocord schrieb:

> > Just for the record: A new, all-black K-60 (propably by Hartblei) will
> > be 459 EUR here in Germany, 499 with mirror prerelease.

> Be careful saying this. Not all of the MLU models are by Hartblei and some
> are just "normal" kiev-60's with a MLU button added.

The cited is an offer from a larger german photo retail house (Foto
Brenner) that's been selling K-60s and K-88s for quite a long time. I
just suspect they're from Hartblei for various reasons (necessary
quality and number of units for FB's business), but mainly because of
the MLU which seems to be Hartblei style. Brenner markets these
cameras under their own name "B.I.G." ("Brenner Import GmbH" or
something like that) and claims they'd be "improved Kievs from a
company of former Kiev technicians/engineers", without giving further
information.


> People selling kievs like to "infer" they have hartblei or "modified by
> hartblei" cameras when the only way to get a real hartblei seems to be to
> order directly from them. Having a MLU button hacked onto a body isn't the
> same as what hartblei does to the cameras they sell themselves.

AFAIK Hartblei developed and even patented that MLU system with the
additional lever on the left side that will make the mirror return to
the "viewing" position after its release. While this is basically
quite a good thing in the field, there's a definite flaw in the
design; touching the lever when the mirror is fired will possibly move
the mirror out of its resting position and allow light to leak in
through the ground glass.

Regards,
Torsten.



From: fotocord fotocord@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Cheap Kievs from Russia - risk assessment
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002

Q.G. de Bakker wrote:
> I'll repeat what i said a few messages earlier: the problems were user
> problems: people poking their fingers through the curtains.


I wonder how many med format problems ARE user problems? Very few people
will bother to read the instructions that come with anything. I'm amazed at
how people will pay $35,000+ for a new car yet refuse to read the owners
manual! I'm sure they can't be bothered to read the manual that comes with
a camera as well and some do have spcial procedures you must follow to not
damage them.   

You can guess I'm talking about people new to Med format having problems
with their kievs. The film spacing issue is repeated over and over yet I've
noted 90% of the people asking for help on this issue, aren't loading the
film right! Is that the camera's fault? I don't see it as being a defect
any more that people sticking their fingers into the shutter curtains on a
'blad. That said,  wonder as well how many shutter problems on the kievs
are caused by the same thing? Surely kiev owners can stick their fingers
into the shutter just as well as blad owners can!  8-)
--

  Stacey   


From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 26 Jun 2002 
Subject: Re: Cheap Kievs from Russia - risk assessment   

My Kiev 6x6cm / Medium Format History:

I have used a variety of medium format cameras for over three decades.
My favorites are Bronica S2A, S2 and C - all of mine are completely reliable. I
have had two of them overhauled and they work without a hitch.

I have a Kiec 6C since 1985 and it works perfectly. I have a Kiev 60 since
1988 and it works perfectly. Neither have ever needed repairs.

I have successfully used Pentacon 6TL, Hamimex Praktica 66 and
Praktisix II since the 1970s.

In the past 2 years I have noted a lot of activity on the internet concerning
Kiev 88 cameras - some upgraded - some not.  

Over 10 years ago I was involved with marketing Kiev 88 cameras in the US- and
we had probably 25% defectives. I wanted nothing more to do with Kiev 88.

Two years ago I noted many people who praised these cameras and went into a
little study of my own.

I now have 4 such cameras-

Salyut-C purchased from Lemiu - have used it a lot with excellent
results until the shutter jammed. I sent it to Eddie Smoloff for
a low cost unjam - clean- lube adjust - now back in full action.

Salyut-C - Like New purchased from seller in Russia. Works fine.

Kiev 88CM - purchased from Kiev Camera - I paid for an upgrade of my early
model, which had jammed slow speeds. I got back a brand new
Hartblei-Upgraded model of Kiev 88CM - with New Improved cloth shutter 
curtains, new-style slow speed mechanism and new lens mount taking
all Zeiss Jena lenses. This works well and is a great camera.

Kiev 88/crank model - purchased from Kiev Camera - a new, upgraded
model with metal shutter curtains, interior flocking. All speeds are accurate
and results are excellent. This was the only camera I took on a trip to
California - along with the 2X Arsenal converter (B screw mount).
I took many rolls of film - every shot was perfect. A fully reliable camera I
would use for any important purpose.

My results have shown me that the earlier Salyut-C models (supposed to be hand
assembled and more precise) can be really excellent cameras at low prices.

The latest Kiev 88 cameras can be excellent.

The latest Hartblei-upgraded Kiev 88CM from Kiev Camera is excellent.

I have heard that Hartblei-revised Kiev 88 cameras can be tops.

I did recently have a defective 1984 Kiev 88, which I sold as-is.

From memory - the 1982 to 1991 Kiev 88 cameras I had in the past were the ones
with most of the problems I identified. While others have used
some of these with good results - I would not have one of these unless
it had been worked on and upgraded in some way.

- Sam Sherman 



From: fotocord fotocord@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Kiev 88 vs. Hasselblad ?
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002

Drazen Caric wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I have a russian copy (at least, it looks very simillar) of Hasselblad -
> the Kiev 88 with 2,8/80mm.
> Can anybody tell me how good is the Kiev comparing to Hasselblad in optics
> and mechanically? Is it worth to invest in (relatively cheap) optics (e.g.
> 30mm, 150mm) for Kiev or better to switch to Hasselblad?

Sounds like you have the screw mount K-88. While these can be OK, they
aren't known for being reliable. The lenses will probably always be worth
what you pay for them if you buy them used so you aren't risking much
buying them. If you really like the camera and it gives you some problems,
hartblei or someone like them can upgrade/repair it for you.

If you buy a few lenses and the camera dies, you can always sell the lenses
and buy something else (The reason these lenses are for sale so often). The
newer NT backs are said to be more reliable (The backs give most of the
problems these camera's have) and would be worth looking into. Also you
should check out the kiewaholic site and read the do's and don'ts as you
can break these if you don't use them right.

I have a kiev-60 (actually several and a pentacon-6 so I always have one
that works) and find the optics very good. There is some sample to sample
variations in the lenses, espectially in the 45-50mm range so be ready to
buy and sell until you find a good one. The cheap good quality optics are
why I put up with their quirks. 

This is all part of the price of using this cheaper gear. If you want
reliability and optics that are better as far as sample to sample
performance, it's going to cost you aprox 10X more money. Only you can
decide if it's worth that to you. Once you get a set of good lenses, it's
just a matter of keeping a body working and at $100-$150 a pop, it's not a
big expence when they die. the money you save on one 50mm or 30mm lens will
buy a BUNCH of bodies! 8-)
--

Stacey  


[Ed. note: passing on this for those seeking a repair source (I haven't used..)]
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 
From: "RussianCamera.net" puridas@alfacom.net
To: rmonagha@post.cis.smu.edu
Subject: www.russiancamera.net

Kiev, Ukraine

Hello!

In your site http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/kiev88/index.html you
wrote: *Email suggestions, updates, comments, links, and glitches to
fix - Thanks!*

I suggest you my website and service for Medium format cameras
http://russiancamera.net/

I place the link to your perfect website in my page
http://russiancamera.net/links.htm

---
Best Regards,
Gevorg Vartanyan,
http://russiancamera.net/



From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 08 Jul 2002 
Subject: Re: Saul Kaminsky???


I have heard many good things about Saul Kaminsky and his upgraded
Kiev cameras. I have also heard he generally stands behind what he sells
and takes things back, repairs them etc. as needed, but be aware that his
prices are very high for what is basically Kiev equipment, which has had much
criticism through the years.

Kiev Camera (Mike Fourman) is much more reasonably priced and also stands
behind what he sells and replaces any defective items.
The Kiev 88CM was an idea of his which Kiev/Arsenal factory has manufactured at
his request - and so he is the exclusive distributor of this model camera from
Arsenal.

I have gotten the Hartblei-upgraded/improved Kiev 88CM from Mike Fourman and
also a more unusual model. The Kiev 88/crank model which is upgraded with
flocking and such and the Hartblei rapid wind crank.
This camera has the original metal curtains and "B" screw lens mount.
The shutter and wind have been fully accurate (speeds etc.)
with no shutter banding or other problems. I don't know how any other upgraded
Kiev 88 could be any better than this model.

- Sam Sherman


From: fotocord fotocord@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Cheap Kievs from Russia - risk assessment
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 

ArtKramr wrote:
>>Subject: Re: Cheap Kievs from Russia - risk assessment
>>From: fotocord fotocord@yahoo.com
>>Date: 6/24/02 
>
>>I'm the first to admit that using these can try your
>>patience and they aren't as cheap as it first appears to get a working
>>setup, but once you get/repair a body or two that work good, the system is
>>great for someone on a budget.
>>--
>
> A camera that isn't dependable is great for no one, budget or not.


If you reread what I wrote I said "once you get/repair a body or two that
work good" as in a fixed/reliable camera? The problems these have are
normally just poor assembly/adjustments from the factory. Once you get one
working right, they ussually stay a reliable camera. The problem arrises
when people aren't willing to spend $150 to get a $100 camera fixed into a
reliable piece of gear.

I did add someone must be willing to work with some quirks, mainly testing
each body and getting the ones that don't work right fixed. The patience is
in not being able to just go out and shoot with it. With a $1500+ blad
starter set you don't have to mess with this, part of the price you pay for
paying 10% of the cost of a 'blad/rollei. The bitch with 'blad/rollei
ownership is this 10X price inflation keeps on going when you need lenses
or a finder etc etc etc. If you can afford it, fine but some of us can't
and having quirky gear IS better than not having anything to use at all.
--
  Stacey




Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 
To: rmonagha@post.smu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: stats on Kiev Re: Cheap Kievs from Russia - risk assessment

Hassy stats:

The stats suggest that there were only circa 2 lenses sold per hassy body.
The implications are that most pros who shoot hasselblad have at least 2
bodies, or these figures for lenses per body would be much higher, yes?
Given 500c or EL/M bodies are only $300 or so, this isn't a big $$
investment in backups. Past threads note a similar situation for Leica M;
factoring out M sales yields barely enough $$ to buy a second M Leica
lens. So while owners are proclaiming how reliable their bodies are, the
sales suggest that most have two or more bodies. This makes sense, given
the high cost of lenses vs. a used spare body (and back/WLF w. hassy).

Another result from the hassy (C) lens sales figures is that over half the
lenses sold were the lowly 80mm normal lens. Again, the implications are
that the majority of hassy owners have only the one lens that came with
their kit, and only one body. Over 85% of the C lenses sold were the
standard trio (50/80/150), leaving very few sales of the rest of their
optics lineup. My point is that hassy owners are "lens poor" vs. Kiev,
yes? see http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/lenssold.html for stats

So while hasselblads may be more reliable, ditto Leicas, this is less of
a factor for most serious amateur or pro owners, since it appears many
have more than one body (so a breakdown is not a disaster etc.). Frankly,
most of the pros I know have backups, whether 35mm or medium format.

Kiev Stats:

On the subject of Kiev reliability, we have two data points by major
importers of hundreds of camera bodies; Sam's 25% defectives figure for
Kiev88s he was involved with importing over a decade ago, and Mark
Kronquist's post 1993 figure "I imported hundreds of Kiev cameras for
years and had very good to excellent results. My DOA [Dead on Arrival]
rate was about 5-7%... ".

However, much of the problems with Kiev88 models was in the backs, and the
new NT series backs seem to have resolved most of those issues.  And
outside of a few wide angle lenses (45mm, 50mm) that seem a bit harder to
get good examples, most of the Kiev lenses seem to get high marks and few
problems per users.

I think these are pretty good odds, compared to all the negatives you see
reported, given the level of savings for a full kit. Even if you factor in
two bodies to have backups, the costs are still modest. Even if you had to
buy 4 bodies to get 3 good ones, per Sam's experience, that's hardly the
kind of bad odds you would expect from all the warnings and complaints ;-)

To put this into context, many of us on EBAY have had far worse problems
with camera bodies and lenses sold in supposedly "excellent" condition,
only to turn out to have many obvious or barely hidden defects, yes? ;-)

Moreover, it looks like the majority of folks who have hassy cameras can't
afford a full kit of lenses (per sales # and surveys cited at above URL,
only 2.1+ lenses/owner); while my impression is that many folks who opt
for the Kievs can and do get a pretty good kit of lenses.

So Art Kramer may be right; the optimal ownership pattern may be a
reliable hasselblad (with 80mm lens, 51% of their C lens sales), plus a
kiev (or two?) with a more full kit of optics at the price of adding a
single extra hasselblad lens. This is the pattern I adopted with Bronica
S2A (and nikkor/zenzanon optics) because an entire kit was less than
adding a used 150mm C lens ;-)

Finally, I suspect hasselblad is losing a significant number of accessory
sales to Kiev hassy compatible prisms - $75 NC-2 clones, metering prisms
($99 up) and the new spot meter prisms;  and now the new $99-149
hasselblad mount Kiev NT auto-12 backs and $200 hassy mount polaroid
backs. Quite a few Kiev30mm fisheyes have evidently been modified to fit
the hasselblad mount. Given that only a 1,000 30mm f/3.5 Distagon hassy C
lenses were sold (0.24% of C lens total) over some decades of sales, I
would bet that more Kiev fisheye lenses are being modified for Hasselblad
200/x series each year than sold by hassy/Zeiss, yes? ;-) Esp. at $350 for
a modified lens, as per one poster, less than sales tax on the hassy lens!
;-) So it appears that more and more hasselblad users are discovering the
Kiev option, thanks to growing hasselblad compatibility efforts by Kiev.
It may not be too long before Kiev puts out lenses in hasselblad 200/x
mounts for their own bodies - in which case a Kiev may really be the ideal
backups for the hasselblad, or vice versa? ;-)

grins bobm


From kiev 88 mailing list:
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 
From: Stephen Castello scastello@cfl.rr.com
Subject: Re: TAIR-33 K88 or different mount---Help needed

 "billcentury" graphic99@mindspring.com wrote:

>I need help in determining if the 300mm F4.5 pre-set Tair-33 lens
>that I purchased has the "multi-start"/"interrupted thread" Kiev88
>mount or the Salyut mount (as I have been told that these are the
>only 2 mounts the -33 was made in).
>

The Kiev88 screw mount and Salyut are the same.  The only difference between
them is the way the stop down pin operates.

Stephen


From rollei mailing list:
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 
From: Dale Dickerson vze2g2z8@verizon.net
Subject: Re: [Rollei] Vivitar 283- try a cap?

With a proper cla, a Kiev is quite reliable. I have a Kiev 2 & 4am RFs,
Kiev 60 and two Kiev 88s. They are not a Rollei. However, once they are
put in proper working order they are reliable cameras with some very
fine optics. With out the cla many lenses and cameras direct from the
factory are nice paper weights.

Dale

Cmlillja55@aol.com wrote:

>And the camera may have barely worked from the factory. Kievs don't
>need a reason to fail. Also sometimes they are quite reliable. Mine has been.


From: asfl@freemail.com.au (Thom)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Subject: Re: russians out of prod'n? Re: Why can't Russians.. cameras?
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 

rmonagha@smu.edu (Robert Monaghan)
wrote:

>actually, I'm wondering if Russians and/or Ukrainians are still producing
>cameras at all? Seriously. It appears the production lines are mostly shut
>down for many models, and even the kiev88 seems to be on again/off again?
>
>Anybody have more definitive data on current status of production? Thanks!
>
>bobm....

Kievs are made at an arsenal.  They produce alot of stuff including
military gear, movie cameras (16mm) the Kiev 88 line, the Kiev 60
line, 35mm with Nikon mounts, a wide field camera and some subminiture
stuff in 110 and 16mm.  I don't know if the copy of the Rollie 35mm is
still going or not???  Arsenal also make binoculars and telescopes I'm
told.

In Russia there are a few things made mainly the ZENIT 35mm line and
the 120 TLR Lubitel.

THOM


From: kevin_i@my-deja.com (kevin_i)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Subject: Re: russians out of prod'n? Re: Why can't Russians.. cameras?
Date: 1 Sep 2002


Hi, Bob.

As far as I know, the Kiev 60 was put back into production sometime
last year or early this year.  Apparently production *was* stopped for
a while as they tried to get rid of excess inventory... but recently
people have been picking up new cameras with new serial numbers,
indicating that production has resumed.
(the message you quoted was from April 2001... so at that time,
perhaps it was correct)

The old screw-mount Kiev 88 has apparently been phased out, being
replaced by the newer Kiev 88CM which has a breech-lock mount based on
the Kiev 60.  This camera is still in production as far as I know.

However, production of lenses has apparently been scaled back and they
are not at any given time producing the entire line of lenses.

I was told the 30mm Arsat is still being made along with the 80mm
normal lens.  Production of the 250mm F3.5 lens was resumed for a
while, but I don't know if it is currently being made.

I'm not sure if the 45mm or 150mm lenses are being produced...
although, they are still available at least as New Old Stock or on the
used market.

Sorry... no information on the 35mm cameras...  But I read recently
that they were producing a 300mm F2.8 lens in Nikon mount.  Perhaps
they have given up on making 35mm bodies, but are still trying to make
some lenses?

-Kevin
...



From: scott@wsrphoto.com (Scott M. Knowles)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Subject: Re: russians out of prod'n? Re: Why can't Russians.. cameras?
Date: 2 Sep 2002

...(quotes above)
> they have given up on making 35mm bodies, but are still trying to make
> some lenses?
>
> -Kevin

The 80mm lens is also being mated to a Tilt-Shift mechanism and 35mm
camera mount (you select the brand/model lens mount).  The Tilt-Shift
mechanism is a simple screw thread for tilt (+/- 8 degree) and shift
(11 degree one direction).  It has 30 degree rotation click stops to
change the tilt-shift.  The camera mount, at least for mine (Minolta
manual focus), was good but snuggness varied with the camera from too
tight to too loose, something I don't find with other lenses.

Good luck.

--Scott--


From: asfl@freemail.com.au (Thom)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.35mm
Subject: Re: Why can't the Russians produce a  world class camera?
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002

artkramr@aol.com (ArtKramr) wrote:

>Why can't the Russians build a camera line that has world class reliability?
>They are a first class scientific nation with great accomplishments.  With
>their  technology it shouldn't be that tough. What is the problem?

Simple, the good thing about Russian today is capitalism and the
market economy and the bad thing about Russian today is capitalism and
the market economy.

The Russians could easily make gear equal to the Japanesse cameras but
for internial consumption it will die on the vine.  The place is a
mess and when communism left the standard of living dropped like a
rock and who can afford them???

Russian/Ukrania stuff is cheap because of the rate of exchange.  To
the natives they are as expensive as a Hassy is to a Swed!

As far as quality is concerned, they make good stuff but have lousey
quality control lines.  Bad stuff gets out where in Japan they
wouldn't.  Everything I have heard about the Kievs is that if you get
a good one its damned good and trouble free and also the same if you
get a bad one and have the importer repair it.  The importer ends up
as the QC line when he fixes it.  I hear Mike Forman in Atlanta is
good about checking incoming stuff and also good on repairs for the
120 stuff but I have never heard a peep about the Zenit and Kiev 35mm
gear.  Must be OK if no one is bitching.  The Russian Lubitels you
don't hear much about except light leaks occassionally but you haer
the same about to LOMO's too (also in 120)

You hear some bad things about the Seagul TLR's but never a bad word
about the Seagul 120 6x6 folding camera.

Cheers
THOM


From kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 
From: Stephen Castello scastello@cfl.rr.com
Subject: Re: (unknown)

"nmotty2000" angieangie@cheerful.com wrote:

>hi i am new here, i just bought a kiev 88 and have no idea how it
>works yet , so is there a good site on the net where i can learn more
>about the camera
>
>
>i bought it of ebay
>Ellen

Here's a few places:
http://kievaholic.com/
http://www.beststuff.com/forums
http://forums.delphiforums.com/kievreport/start
http://www.rickdenney.com/The_Kiev_Report/Kiev_report_webpage.htm

Stephen




Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 
From: "russian plaza.com" contact@mail.russianplaza.com
To: rmonagha@mail.smu.edu
Subject: website update request

Dear Sirs,

I am requesting a special favor, is it possible to update the web information
that is on your website

The link is as follows:
http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/kiev88/


our information:

www.RussianPlaza.Com

Our new address, phone number and e-mail address is as follows:

RussianPlaza.Com
1718 N. Garfield Place
Los Angeles, CA  90028

atten:  Robert Berg

phone number is:  323-957-9733

e-mail address is:  contact@russianplaza.com

Thank you in advance for all your help, and also your wonderful website, which
I use often for research.

Best Regards,

Cindy
RussianPlaza.Com
www.russianplaza.com


[Ed. note: repairer emptor! - check the online repair manuals and factory manuals for info]
From kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 
From: "John Slagle" jrslagle@mindspring.com
Subject: Working on filmbacks

The following instructions seemed to work for the person I sent them to, so
I'll post them here FWIW.

This procedure is for a back with a non-functioning manual advance.  The
procedure could fail and one could permanently damage the clutch spring.  I
believe the correct method is to replace the gear assembly for which the
spring appears to be a permanent part of.

Also, it might be useful if one reviews the article on light seal servicing.
This article has pictures of film back dissasembly.  I can't remeber where
to find it, though.

John


-----Original Message-----
From: John Slagle
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 1:08 AM
To: terryjianlin
Subject: RE: Question from eBay Member


That is so interesting.

I just finished washing my hands after fixing exactly that problem with my
back. I have two more to go.

There is a double/stacked gear inside with a clutch spring wrapped around
it.  One end of this spring use to be hooked into the top gear.  Right where
it bends to hook into the gear is where it breaks.

What I did was just bend a new hook into the end.  The problem with this
method is that you may deform the spring enough that it will lose its clutch
action and fail to grab onto the bushing that seperates the two gears.

If you look at the bottom gear, you will see that there is a brass plate
pressed onto the pilot of the bushing that extends through the gear.

I am thinking the proper way to repair this thing would be to pound the
bushing out of the brass retainer plate.  That way you can remove the spring
to fashion a new hook with less stress on the body of the spring.

There are two possible problems with this method.  The first is pounding out
the bushing with out damaging the brass part.  The other problem would be
putting it back together.  I am wondering if the brass plate could even be
reused.

As for dissasembly, you have two options.  The firs is just to remove the
gear assembly from the bottom.  There are three screws close together in the
bottom of the mag shell. Those three screws need to come out.  The center
one may have red paint on it.  There is a fourth screw underneath the
floating plate.  You can pull that plate out easy enough.  The trick is to
put it back in with out bending it too badly.  That fourth screw needs to be
completely loosened, but do not pull it out.

The other way is to completley tear down the back.  If you peel up the
leatherette, you will find three screws on each side.  You do not have to
completely remove it, only peel back 3/8 - 1/2" on each side. You will peel
the two opposite edges closest to the camera mating plate.  You do not have
to remove the side letherettes.  This will allow you to remove the floating
plate without bending it.  This will also allow you to inspect the light
seals and trap.

You have to be careful when you pull off the camera mating plate.  There are
two safety mechanisms that like to fall out as well as the two spacers for
the holes for the bottom camera hooks.  The top latching mechanism may want
to fall out as well.  When pulling off the mating plate, have the back
laying flat on a table, then draw a picture of how every thing is positioned
underneath the plate.

For the gear housing:  You will have to remove the leatherette dot on the
manual advance knob to get to the screw.  Once you have the knob off, you
can remove the gear train top plate.  Be careful not to disturb the gears
too much.  The socket for the film carrier can be removed if you pay
attention to the big silver gear set.  There are two gears, one on top of
each other.  The one on the bottom is pretentioned.  If you bump it, it will
spin, and you won't know how to retention it unless you have another back
handy.  You can figure out how to retention this gear by observing how the
gear turns and snaps back in an assembled, working back. Retentioning is
aprox one revolution on the spring.  Ensure the gear axle is properly seated
when doing this.

I had to remove the film carrier socket/gear to remove the gear with the
spring.  You may be able to do it without.

Remember not to let the long screw fall out.  There is a small washer that
may fall out.  It goes on the black plate with the numbers.  Remeber to
re-hook that small spring when you put the gear train plate back on.

As far as the lens goes - If you didn't diagram how the lens came apart, the
you will have to tear down another one to make your diagram.

Let me know how things go
-John

-----Original Message-----
From: terryjianlin [mailto:terryjianlin@attbi.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 9:58 PM
To: John Slagle
Subject: Re: Question from eBay Member


hi,john:
    so glad to have your reply,thankyou!
    yes,i am trianing myseft  to know more about camera just like you
do.currenlly,i am working on a MC80mm lens,there was some problem with the
diaphragm.and i think i found the problem.i am trying to put it back to a
whole piece now.most difficult for me are those glasses,have to clean it as
good as possible. and don't know exactly how they set up.
    Another problem with my film back:it does not wind the film,i think
there is a problem with gear inside ,but i don't know how to open it . i
guess maybe you can help me out with that.?
     There is a lot of fun,isn't it?



best regrad
terry lin



from kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 
From: "flexaret@sprynet.com" flexaret@sprynet.com
Subject: Re: MLU and Weight of 88

Stephen,

I have found that the weight of the Kiev 88 (Mass) plus the relative soft
landing of the mirror has proven to me that this camera has very little
shake
needing Mirror Lock Up.

However, MLU is a sales feature on upgraded Kiev 88 models and some
users think they need it.

I have an upgraded Kiev 88 with Mirror Pre-Release (like lockup) and
when you release the mirror by itself there is very little impact.
I have tried this feature and see no difference to not using it.

I have been able to shoot hand held photos at 1/15 sec. that are
relatively sharp with Kiev 88.

It is all up to the use you put the camera to.


- Sam Sherman



From: "Sherman" sherman-remove_this@dunnam.net
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Best Option for Entry-level Medium Format
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 

...

Brian,
I will comment on the Kiev 88cm as I own one.  Keep in mind however that it
is a completely different type of camera from the Mamiya.  Here is the
rundown.

The Kiev is an almost completely manual camera.  I say almost because it
does focus with the lens wide open and then stops it down "automatically" to
the aperture you set.  Other than that, it is totally manual with no
connection whatsoever between the light meter (in the metered prism), the
shutter speed and the aperture.  Think of the light meter as a handheld
meter that just happens to look through the lens.  You manually transfer the
reading to the camera.

As for quality, that varies quite a bit from camera to camera.  The Kiev
quality control system leaves a lot to be desired.  I had my camera about
five months when the low shutter speeds went out.  Nothing below 1/60 of a
second worked reliably and 1/30 and 1/15 didn't work at all.  Mike Fourman
at Kiev Camera (www.kievcamera.com) replaced the body for me, which is the
usual method of "fixing" the problem.  My current body has been working
perfectly for about five months now.

On the other hand the Arsat lenses made by Kiev range from OK to excellent
in quality.  Virtually any of them can produce good results but again there
is more variation between individual lenses than with most other
manufacturer's lines.

In addition to the Arsat lenses the K88cm and the K60 can each use the P6
mount lenses available.  There are some excellent Zeiss lenses available on
the used market and some new Schneider lenses as well.

One thing I like about the Kiev 88cm is the interchangeable film backs.  I
don't believe the Mamiya 645E has that feature.  Depending upon your
shooting style that may or may not matter to you.  I primarily shoot 4x5 in
black and white.  When I am using my Kiev I also use black and white but
there are times when I like to use color.  With the Kiev I just insert the
darkslide, unhook the back, and pop on the back with my color film.  Being
able to change film types at any point makes it closer to my 4x5 and is a
feature I wanted.

The Kiev line, including Zeiss lenses, tends to be big and heavy.  My MF bag
weighs more than my LF bag.

Bottom line, if you don't mind some quirkiness in your camera the Kiev
option allows not only getting into medium format for a reasonable price it
allows expanding your system also.  Lenses, even new are reasonably priced
and used are a true bargin.  With all the P6 lenses out there the Kiev line
is one of the largest MF lines going.

If you want/need modern features like auto-exposure, motor wind capability,
autofocus etc.  then go with the Mamiya.

Just my $.02.

Sherman
http://www.dunnamphoto.co



From: "Jeremy" jeremy@no-spam-thanks.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Best Option for Entry-level Medium Format
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002


"Brian Haren" bharen@bellsouth.net wrote...
>My key concerns (in order) are:
>
> 1. Affordability (haven't won the lottery - yet!)
> 2. Quality (mechanical and optical)
> 3. Expandability
> 4. Durability


The Kiev cameras are truly an exercise in Russian Roulette.  If QUALITY and
DURABILITY are important to you, that would exclude the Ukrainian cameras
from consideration.

The newsgroups are filled with stories of Kievs that needed repairs right
out of the box, when new.

You might get a really good one, and you might get a lemon.  Even Kiev's
distributors admit as much.

Hasselblad they ain't . . . So, it depends upon how much risk you are
comfortable with.  Only you can decide that question.

I, personally, would pass on the Kiev. (And, as an aside, I happen to be of
100% Ukrainian ancestry!  So, I am not particularly happy about having to
make this recommendation to you)



From: Stacey fotocord@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Best Option for Entry-level Medium Format
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002

bharen@bellsouth.net (Brian Haren) wrote:

>All,
> I realize in the mind of many that
>the Mamiya package is the obvious choice in terms of quality, but recent
>info on the web and in print indicates that Kiev has (for now, anyway)
>cleaned up their QC act and is now putting out a well made camera.  If you
>have direct experience with either or both systems I'd love to have your
>comments.

As a kiev user for just over a year now I think I can speak on my
experiences. I still use these but sometimes wonder why! I own 4
K-60's and 2 pentacon 6's and a BUNCH of lenses....


I was sold this "The new kievs are fine" line and it's a lie... The
main advantage they have is cheap optics that are good (well some
samples are, some aren't).. These new 88cm's aren't much better than
the old ones. They still have banding issues on almost all samples
from 1/250 and up. They still arrive DOA even from sources who claim
to "check them out". Many break within weeks of delivery and then get
replaced for another that just has different problems. I can tell you
from pesonal experience they don't normally work perfect and sometimes
not even close. If you use slow film and a tripod where you don't need
the speeds above 1/125 you will have a better chance of getting a
useable one.
 I tried the K-60 as it's said to be more reliable as it's a much
simplier design yet went through 2 new ones that had different
problems and finally had to pay (seller refused to warranty it) to get
it fixed where it would be usable. The other camera's I've bought were
a hartblei sample which was better but still has had some issues. the
others were used from russia and one worked great, the other needed
lots of TLC before it did.

Yes they are cool when they work, the CZJ optics are great and SOME of
the russian optics are good too. I like 6X6 and why I didn't want the
6X4.5 cameras. If you don't mind tinkering, are willing to swap out
cameras and lenses till you find/get a good set, maybe the kievs are
for you? I've spent HOURS adjusting lenses, focus screens, stop down
linkages etc to get this stuff to work but also have a set of optics I
could never afford otherwise. If you don't have a LOT of patience and
enjoy this sort of think DON'T buy one!

Stacey


From kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 
From: "flexaret@sprynet.com" flexaret@sprynet.com
Subject: RE: a future 88 owner asks...

Stewart,

I have sveral Kiev 88 type camera of various configurations and they
all work.

The best and most rugged one I can suggest is a type I bought from Mike
Fourman at Kiev Camera-

Standard Kiev 88 - upgraded with interior flocking - has standard metal
curtains and Hartblei wind crank, taking standard "B" screw mount lenses.
This is a wonderful strong and rugged camera. The normal lens has a slit
which might cause a light leak if you focus at 18", which I have never done
and I have had excellent sharp images from that normal 80MM Arsat lens.

I suggest you contact Mike Fourman through his website - get his phone number
and call- website is-

www.kievcamera.com

The low cost outfit you would ask for is -

Standard Kiev 88 with metal curtains, interior flocking, Hartblei wind crank-
standard "B" screw mount, normal 80MM Arsat f2.8 lens, waist level finder and
on normal Kiev NT 12 exposure back, plus neck strap and lens shade. He should
sell this to you at a reasonable price and good guaranty. This is a solid
piece of equipment and he will stand behind it.

Stay with this camera ONLY. Once you get used to Kiev 88 cameras after owning
this one you may become more involved with other models.

Best,

Sam Sherman

Original Message:
-----------------
From: Stewart C. Russell scruss@sympatico.ca
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002
To: Kiev88@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Kiev88] a future 88 owner asks...

I'm interested in getting some flavour of Kiev 88, as it's about the only MF
camera with interchangeable lenses I can afford. I'm not a very demanding
shooter, but I do expect cameras to work when I need them.

If I bought a camera from one of the places that re-engineers them, would I
get something I can depend on? I've owned a Fed 5V and a Lubitel 166U
before,
and I found them to be pretty appalling devices.

I'm surprised to read that the standard 80mm lens can suffer from light leaks
at close focus. Does the Hartblei MC 80/2.8 have the same problem?

cheers,
 Stewart
(in Scarborough, ON)


From kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 
From: dimitris deliyannis dimit168527@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: a future 88 owner asks...

Hi

My name is Dimit. I had bought my Kiev 88 used and i
sent it to KievUsa (kievusa.com) and they rebuilt with
the cloth shutter. I own 2 hasselblads in addition so
I feel i know something about dependabilty.

Even thou i nevered used the Kiev 88 until it was
rebuilt, iy has turned out to be a very dependable
camera. I bought it for a back up but now i set it up
with the other camera and equipment and have had no
failures.

>From what I understand the new ones coming from Russia
are of a quality undependable. Go to ebay buy a used
one for as low as you can get it and have it rebuilt
by KievUsa. It will be a soild camera.

I never experiancewd the light leak problem with mine.
I suspect the light leak promblem is flaring on the
inside of the camera. At Kievusa the respray the
inside with a none gloss black paint and put a black
velvet cloth and the flair goes away.

As for the glass it is fine i can not tell the
diffrence between the Hassy and Kiev lenses until I
get to a 36x24 poster. There the outer edges of the
picture come out soft.

I hope this helps you

Take care
Dimit
...


From kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 
From: mark hahn markhahn2000@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: a future 88 owner asks...

I would read other people's opinions (google search)
of KievUSA before paying the high price that they want
for their "upgrade."

I purchased both a K88 and K60 off eBay (way cheaper
than list price) from www.russianplaza.com and after
swapping out one bad prism and one bad body ended up
with two reliable cameras straight from the factory...
no leaks and excellent exposures.

Personally, I would avoid cloth shutters and wind
knobs and stick with the original... as long as it is
flocked.

I have bought other stuff from www.kievcamera.com and
will also give them a thumbs up.

mark
...


From kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 
From: Dale Dickerson vze2g2z8@verizon.net
Subject: Re: alternate body ....

Sam,

Mike is no longer selling the Kiev 688m.   :-(

Dale


From russian camera mailing list:
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 
To: Russiancamera-user russiancamera-user@mail.beststuff.com
From: Anya oui@paco.net
Subject: [Russiancamera] Re: shipping charges

Hello

  I give my experience with shipping.

  cost varies very little to which country, except Japan and Korea are
little more,
  cost is calculate on weight, 500grams, 1 kg and 2 kg, after 2Kg cost
increases very much , but if shipping 8 Kg it is cheaper than 4 lots of 2kg.
  international post is expensive for Ukraine because it rely on cost in
other countries, internal post in Ukraine is very cheap, you can send sack
of potatoes to different city for few dollars :-))
  normal cost for a camera like Kiev 4 or zorki 4 that with packing wioeghs
1.3 to 1.4 kg, id 69.00 Uk gryvnia  , depend on exchange rate that does vary
almost every hour that can cost in $$ USD $14.00 to $15.00 , ofcourse some
towns are cheaper to post from than others, Kiev is lower price than Odessa,
but city in east ukraine will cost much more, this because most every
international post item will have to travel to Kiev first and then find a
plane to different country.
   So if you consider the $14 to $15 for actualy post cost, then cost of
packing materiels , travel to post office, small payments to post office
workers to actually get your item wrapped, than after being in post office
for last 2 hours going out side for cup of coffee or ice cream in summer and
walk home .....the cost is not too expensive !

   Now to explain why he sell and post for $7 and then $15 ??  I guess that
he was listing many items and did not change the post cost from last smaller
item,

  as rough guide for Ukraine this is reasonable costs

   500 grams  ( light meter, small lens ? ) 29 hr = $5 to $6
   1Kg       ( small camera Lomo ? or lens )  45 hr =  $9 to $10
   2 Kg      ( most items, also mabe a small camera with a bigger one, or
extra lens )    70.00 hr    $14 to $15

  Anya


Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 
To: Russiancamera-user russiancamera-user@mail.beststuff.com
From: Wayne  Cornell cwcornell@caxtonpress.com
Subject: [Russiancamera] Re: shipping charges

Shipping charges from the russian republics vary. If it's coming from
Siberia the minimum is usually $20. Ukranine seems to run in the $12 range.
Belarous (at least some sellers claim) is in the $30 range. Of course we
don't know on this end how much of the fee had to go to postal official
bribes (a way of life in many areas). Actually, in a lot of cases it's
cheaper to get a package from the old SU than to sent something from the
U.S. to that region. I've never sent a package that cost less than $20.



From kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 
From: "flexaret@sprynet.com" flexaret@sprynet.com
Subject: Re: a future 88 owner asks...

Dale,

I think you should opt on getting two more cameras-

HARTBLEI 1688 - This is a Kiev 88CM taking both
Hasselblad and Kiev backs - Order to have it tested that it takes both.

Kiev 88 - mofified with Pentacon 6 twist and lock mount - flocking,
Hartblei-type wind crank and black metal shutter curtains. This type is
available from several sources and Mike Fourman sometimes has them.

The you would have a backup camera if one is down and with two types of
mounts you could take any and all types of Pentacon 6 lenses.

Best,

Sam Sherman


From kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 
From: "Jon McClellan" jonmac@moose.co.uk
Subject: Re: lens mounts and serial numbers

The number on the back won't help - its only useful to tell when that Item
was made - yours was made in '75 -

If your lens has a course thread and turns into place its a B mount - or
there are two types of P-6 bayonet mount for K88:
a. The twist lock - this usually has a button to release the lens which
twists into place.
or b. the breech lock p-6 type as found on most K88cm cameras (rather
similar to the old canon FD mount) as in the lens goes into the hole on the
camera straight and you twist the breech lock ring to hold it in place.

Either way you can tell a Pentacon 6 lens by its locating screw which points
up (at 12 O'clock) on the mount directly behind where you read off the
aperture.


Hope this helps

Best wishes

Jon



From: "Sherman" sherman@dunnam.net
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Medium Format Camera Recommendations; ideas; flames ; whatever
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002

... 
David,
I shoot mostly 4x5 so when I decided to purchase a new MF camera cost was a
more important consideration than reliability.  I wanted interchangeable
backs and interchangeable lenses.  I like my Rollei but it _is_ limited in
some ways.

I may be lucky but I purchased a Kiev 88CM and haven't had to spend any time
making it fly.  I did have one problem in the year I've had the camera but
it was fixed in less than a week.  A friend of mine had to have a month old
Nikon F5 repaired and it took more than twice as long.  So from personal
experience I can't say that the Kiev breaks more or is harder to get
serviced than "mainstream" cameras though I don't doubt it is true.

Right out of the box the focus was perfect and all the lenses I have 
purchased work well.  The body I have will mount the 2.8 180 Sonnar so that
will be my next purchase.  (I already have the MC 50 Flektogon.)  I also
like the square format and compose for that whenever the subject allows.

All that being said, I wouldn't imagine a working pro would use the Kiev
system as a main camera, though having backup bodies in case of failure
would be incredibly cheap.

Also, once in a while, after hiking several miles with the Kiev system on my
back I _do_ wonder what it would be like to be carrying a Mamiya 645 system
instead!    ;^ )

Sherman
http://www.dunnamphoto.com 


From: "Sherman" sherman-remove_this@dunnam.net
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Still Looking for a carrying Bag
Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003

"Allan W. Bart, Jr." allanba@ix.netcom.com wrote ...
> Hello,
>
> I wonder what you folks are using to lug these big cameras and lens? I am
> using a Pentacon 6.
>
> Allan

Allan,
I carry my MF gear (Kiev 88cm) in a backpack made by Promaster.  Most of my
shooting is done in the field and I often hike between 4 and 8 miles with my
camera, lenses and tripod.  I have found this backpack to be pretty
comfortable for a very heavy kit.

I normally carry- 

  * Kiev 88cm body and 2 backs
  * Waist level finder and spot metering prism finder
  * 50mm, 80mm, 150mm, 250mm
  *1.4x converter, 20mm and 40mm extension tubes, lens hoods
  * Sekonic spotmeter
  * Assorted accessories like cable release, notebook and pencil, lens
cleaning tissues, plastic "rain covers", assorted filters
  * Bogen 3021 tripod with 3030 head
  * 1 liter water bottle and sometimes lunch and a second water bottle

oh yeah, I also carry some film!  All up it weighs over 40 pounds (actually
more than my 4x5 field kit with 3 lenses).  The pack has a customizable
interior with padded dividers positionable by velcro-like fasteners.

I like it well enough that I am considering one to replace the home-made
pack I use for my 4x5 gear.  I don't know the model number as it isn't
written on the pack anywhere but I think it was a "Large".  Cost was about 
$150 US.

HTH,
Sherman
http://www.dunnamphoto.com


From camera fix mailing list:
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 
From: Bruce Feist bfeist@flock.org
Subject: Re: spare parts to Russian cameras

There's a Yahoo group/mailing list especially for such things.  Check
out http://groups.yahoo.com/group/russian_camera_parts .

Bruce Feist


From: kevin_i@my-deja.com (kevin_i)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Hartblei never wrote me back -sob-
Date: 31 Oct 2002


Hartblei is a bit of a mysterious entity.

Basically, it seems to be a loosely knit group of camera
repairmen/technicians... perhaps former or even current employees of
the Arsenal factory where Kiev cameras are made.  Because the group is
so loose knit with these guys basically working at home, modified
parts tend to grow legs and end up all over the place and cameras with
the same modifications can come through many different sources.

The Hartblei.com website is apparently controlled by the former
business partners of the president of the Hartblei company.  This has
basically created two Hartbleis... the website owners and the
president of the Hartblei company who is the head of the technicians.
The split was not friendly... but to make matters more confusing, the
owners of the Hartblei.com website seem to be getting some cameras
from Hartblei technicians by bypassing the head of the Hartblei
company.

It's a mess.  Probably due in large part to the economic situation
there with everyone just trying to put food on their tables.

Oh, and Hartblei.com appears to be based in Prague, while the Hartblei
company is in Kiev, Ukraine.

Apparently the Kiev 66 slide projector does exist.  They are very rare
though.  You might want to ask Mike Fourman at Kievcamera.com about
whether or not he can get one for you.  Mike is a nice guy, but he is
probably overworked and may be a little slow to answer e-mail at
times... at other times he is blazing fast.  It kind of depends on
when you catch him.

-Kevin


steven.sawyer@banet.net wrote 
> Some time ago on this list the ultra cheap Kiev66 MF slide projector was
> discussed.  Since then Hartblei, the only guys I know who sell them took
> that incredible $190 price off of their website.
> I figured I'd take the plunge and wrote to them - on 10/6/2002 - and I
> haven't heard from them since.
> Questions:
> Who are Hartblei?
> Where are they located?
> Does the Kiev66 really exist?
> Did the US and Russia sign an arms control agreement whereby all Kiev66
> projectors are to be destroyed?
> Will we ever know the answers to these questions?


From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace.medium-format
Date: 27 Feb 2003
Subject: Re: Hartblei and their likes

Stan,

IMHO standard Kiev 88 cameras from about 1983 to 1999 are the most likely to
break down quickly. The earliest models (1957-1980) had the best gearing and
the later models were made from worn castings and
such.

From 1999-2002 Kiev 88 cameras seem to be better made and work smoother.

Furthermore, an upgraded Kiev 88 from one of several sources, such as Hartblei
has smoother internal parts and these have a good reputation for
working well without breakdowns. For about $350-$400 for a new body alone,
with improvements such as wind crank, Pentacon 6 mount,cloth shutter curtains,
reinforced bottom and such - these are great bargains that can take-

Carl Zeiss Jena optics, ie. 180MM f2.8 Sonnar ($200-$300),
50MM f4 Flektogon ($150-$300) and the excellent Arsat 30MM f3.5
fisheye ($200-$300) which compares favorably to the $7000 Zeiss 30MM f3.5
Distagon for Hasselblad. And how many people own that?

Add to this an excellent tiny Hartblei 500MM f8 MC Mirror Lens ($200) -
(you can just throw this into your camera bag in a very small space)
which Hasselblad has nothing like - and you will note the reasons to own this
equipment. I have all of the above and the results I get are nothing short of
sensational!

- Sam Sherman


From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.marketplace.medium-format
Date: 26 Feb 2003 
Subject: Re: Hartblei and their likes

Hasselblad makes great cameras but when you factor in the cost of lenses (new
or used) this outfit could cost ten times the cost of a Kiev 88CM outfit.

Users of Kiev 88CM, other Kiev 88s with Pentacon 6 mount, Kiev 60
and Exakta 66 can purchase excellent lens collections at low prices-
including Carl Zeiss Jena and Schneider optics. The results with these cameras
can rival those of Hasselblad and in one on one tests
of Hasselblad vs. Kiev 88 the Hasselblad owners were unable to tell which
cameras took which photos.

There are excellent quality Kiev cameras and lenses, which are great
photographic bargains, but it may take some effort to find them and
get them from a quality seller with a good warranty.

Hasselblad may have great equipment but look at the number of Hasselblad repair
shops that are always busy.

- Sam Sherman


From: hk_spamkuebel@mail.ru (Hartmut Krafft)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Newbies and the Kievs
Date: 27 Feb 2003 

Stacey fotocord@yahoo.com wrote:

> Nope just a camera that didn't have a banding shutter at 1/125 and up,
> shutter light leaks when winding ruining the film unless you cover the
> lens when winding and didn't overlap frames.. I don't think that's
> asking for too much out of a camera.

[...]

> Also I still use these cameras but found getting working samples was
> tough. Very few work right out of the box and most people wouldn't
> want to have to go through this sort of thing just to take pictures.

I couldn't have summed it up in a better way. I've had exactly
the same experience. (Three bodies, one of which works - sort of,
if you don't use times shorter than 1/125).
Warranty does'nt help you a bit. You'll just get a lemon replaced
by another one.
And the shutter banding seems to be unrepairable, so that's no
way out, either.

So, all of you who think about it: go buy a Kiev88 if you
a) know that you're the lucky one, always (you'll get a 1-in-1000
working model)
b) have a good lawyer
.but don't say you haven't been warned ;-)

Hartmut


From: Stacey fotocord@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Anyone used the 2002 Kiev 60's?
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 

DH nospam@head.com wrote:
>I am a student-a poor one,wanting to do MF but needing to do it cheaply. Has
>anyone used the new Kiev 60 models? I can get the new 2002 model with
>lens,filters,TTL,eye level finder,etc for $165,being on a very limited
>budget this is very within my reach and could be my first MF camera but I
>don't want to get stiffed. Are they any good?

IMHO the 2000+ models of these are not nearly as good as the older
ones. In fact I own several of these and the only one I've had any
poblems with have been multiple replacements of these new models.
Ended up giving up on the warranty and paying to get it fixed, which
was more than the camera cost. My advice if buying a used working
sample of one of the pre 95 models as if it's used, it worked well at
some point in it's life :-) As far as good, if you get a working
sample the results are very good, the problem is the quality control
on the camera body itself and the newer ones seem to be much worse
than the older ones.

www.geocities.com/kievgurl

Stacey



From: Stacey fotocord@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Newbies and the Kievs
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 

that guy nospam.to.thatguy@neverbox.com wrote:

>basically owning a kiev seems to mean that you should not mind tinkering
>with your equipment (or even enjoy doing so) and that you should not
>have the expectation that it will always be perfect and hassle-free.
>there are certainly much greater risks or balances to be considered, and
>some will find the trade-offs to be worth it while others will not.

That really does sum it up quite well.

Stacey


From: tomlyons@melbpc.org.au (Thom)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Newbies and the Kievs
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 

flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2) wrote:

>from: flexaret2@aol.com (Sam Sherman) 2-24-03
>
>A good condition 1952 model or later (f3.5 or f2.8) of Automatic Rolleiflex is
>the best and most reliable camera to start into medium format with. Cameras
>like these have taken some of the best shots in medium format photography. Look
>up websites for "Fritz Henle" to see some great work.
>
>After you are familair with medium format photography and want a 6x6cm SLR a
>good condition used Bronica S2A is a super instrument.
>Wanting to use the excellent Carl Zeiss Jena optics in a 6x6cm SLR
>you might later consider a good condition Exakta 66 (post 1990),
>Pentacon TL (near mint), a good condition Kiev 6, Kiev 60 or
>Kiev 88 style with Pentacon 6 mount with a good warranty.
>Good examples of all of these cameras can work very well.
>
>- Sam Sherman

Though the Arsenal products are getting better, their quality control
still needs work. However there are two companies that upgrade the
factory models and do what is necessary. One is Hartblei and the
other is Arax (which is right in Kiev). I have never heard any
complaints about either.

Both add on a couple of hundred US$ to the cost but most feel its
worth it. Kiev Camera in Atlanta (also on E-Bay) sells the regular
Kievs, Hartblei models plus upgraded versions of their own. Its
unknow if "Hart" or Arax make these for him.

THOM



From: "Sherman" sherman-remove_this@dunnam.net
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Newbies and the Kievs
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 

"J Stafford" john@stafford.net wrote
 "Mark" aviatorsonestop@dp.net wrote:
>
> > Yep but additional lenses are likely out of the question though. With a
> > Kiev additional lenses are both affordable and available allowing you to
> > make images with the Kiev that would simply be cost prohibitive with other
> > cameras.
>
> For how long before it breaks? In other words, how many pictures per
> dollar does a Kiev get compared to a low-end Hasselblad?

I have wondered that same thing. I own a Kiev 88cm and really like it. I
have had one problem with the camera (low speeds went south, which is a
typical problem) which cost me $75. Other than that it has performed
flawlessly. I don't shoot a lot with it, I'm a 4x5 shooter but I guess I
put about 5 or 6 rolls a month through it.

I assume it will break again and will cost somewhere between $75 and the
cost of a new body to "repair". After a few years of doing that I suppose I
could have spent as much as a Hasselblad. However I don't think I would
have two backs and four or five lenses for the 'Blad. I could have saved up
for a Hasselblad or Mamiya RB or Bronica but then I wouldn't have been
shooting MF for 2 years.

I guess the bottom line is, if I had the disposable cash upfront I would
have gone with a different system but since I didn't I went with what I
could afford and haven't regretted it. I wouldn't recommend it for someone
who depends on it for their income but for my purposes it has been a great
purchase.

On the whole I think this is a very tough decision and should be based on
one's personal tolerance for dealing with problems and a love of... should
we say "quirky?" cameras.

Sherman
http://www.dunnamphoto.com


From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 28 Feb 2003 
Subject: Re: Newbies and the Kievs

I was formerly a great critic of Kiev 88 cameras as I saw many defective ones
made in the 1980s to mid or late 1990s. The earlier Salyut-C
and the 1999-2002 models are generally much better. I now have several
Kiev 88 types some with "B" screw mount and some with Pentacon 6 mount and they
all work fine. Most are upgraded types which were improved after leaving the
Arsenal factory.

I have a Kiev 6C since about 1983 and a Kiev 60 since 1988 and both have always
worked fine. These are strong solid cameras with solid steel gearing which
should last. IMHO many of the later Kiev 60 models have not been as well made
since the tooling is getting old and gearing is now getting rough with the
problems that result from such gearing.

I would think that some of the recent "upgraded" Kiev 60 models could be a
great improvement over the standard models, that is if any real upgrading and
testing is actually being done.

After some years of studying both the 88 and 60 types, it is my opinion
that it is not that difficult to get good models of both which work fine.
The key is buying with a good warranty and returning defective models
immediately for adjustments or instead get new cameras.

- Sam Sherman


From: Stacey fotocord@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Newbies and the Kievs
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 


Marv Soloff msoloff@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>At $470 plus postage you were expecting a Hassleblad?
>
>Regards,
>Marv

Nope just a camera that didn't have a banding shutter at 1/125 and up,
shutter light leaks when winding ruining the film unless you cover the
lens when winding and didn't overlap frames.. I don't think that's
asking for too much out of a camera. The first one had a slow 1/1000
speed (same as 1/500) and I should have lived with that was my point.
BTW it was a $300 K-60.

Also I still use these cameras but found getting working samples was
tough. Very few work right out of the box and most people wouldn't
want to have to go through this sort of thing just to take pictures.
God only knows why I do? I could have bought a better camera with the
money I've spent but I do love the 180mm sonar and the 30mm arsat!


Stacey


From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 23 Feb 2003 
Subject: Re: Hartblei and their likes

Re- Kiev 88 upgraded cameras-

Since you are in Europe the closest dealers are

Hans Roskam (Netherlands)
Weise (Hamberg- Germany)
Arax Photo (Ukraine)

All have good reputations.
Arax has their own line of upgraded Kiev 88 models
Weise has the Pentasix which they upgraded with Hartblei
Weise has an assortment of cameras. All of these dealers will stand behind
their products with good warranties.

What you are looking for is a Kiev 88 very well upgraded, with-

Wind Crank
Anti-reflection flocking
Pentacon 6 mount
Either cloth shutter curtains or black metal shutter curtains (both okay)
Some of these cameras have Mirror Lock Up - if you want this.

Pentacon 6 lenses made originally by Carl Zeiss Jena are plentiful
in Europe and can be found at reasonable prices.

The same for Arsat/Arsenal lenses from the factory that makes the
Kiev 88, Kiev 88CM and Kiev 60. These lenses are sometimes called
Kiev 60 or Kiev 88CM mount.

All of these lenses (in good samples) are of high quality.

While older standard Kiev 88 cameras have had shutter failures, the
new upgraded cameras have proven reliable over the long haul.

Re- Hartblei- The ownership of this company is in conflict and
it is hard to order their fine products from a reliable source,
but you can see them at - www.hartblei.com.

However, some people have ordered them from the website and
are happy with the results, but it can be iffy.

Good luck,

Sam Sherman


From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 23 Feb 2003 
Subject: Re: Hartblei and their likes

Re- Hartblei and upgraded Kiev 88 models

I forgot to mention that these upgraded Kiev 88 models
take either Kiev or Hasselblad finders, but Kiev backs only.
The new Kiev 88 - NT backs are very good and easier to load than
Hasselblad backs.

You can get a lot more information at-

www.kievaholic.com

The opening photo shows a nice (Hartblei model) Kiev 688m with
Carl Zeiss Jena multicoated 180MM f2.8 Sonnar.

Two other nice lenses made/upgraded by Hartblei are-

Hartblei multicoated 150MM f2.8

Hartblei multicoated 500MM f8 MIrror Lens

Both of these lenses come in Pentacon 6 mount.

- Sam Sherman


From: steven.sawyer@banet.net
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Newbies and the Kievs
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 

It seems to me that a large percent of new to MF photographers are
looking at the "too cheap to be true" Kiev line. I'm wondering if
advising these newcomers to go with a Kiev is the best advice. I would
say if they're on the cheap, the best entry level MF cameras are TLRs.
Other than for close ups they're really the best value out there. And
then after that I'd go with one of the new Japanese RF cameras - can't
go wrong there either. I don't think people should be steered to Kievs
unless they have a compelling reason to use an SLR and they don't have a
lot of dough. Obviously the selection of lenses is tempting but I've
used a Kiev 35mm camera (Kiev 19M) and I think a Kiev could produce
quite a shock to a new MF user.



From: that guy nospam.to.thatguy@neverbox.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Newbies and the Kievs
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 

steven.sawyer@banet.net wrote:
> It seems to me that a large percent of new to MF photographers are
> looking at the "too cheap to be true" Kiev line. I'm wondering if
> advising these newcomers to go with a Kiev is the best advice. 

probably not. a camera that can be broken just because you didn't cock
the shutter before adjusting the shutter speed, or where the sun can
burn a hole in the shutter, is an accident waiting to happen in the
wrong hands.

> I would say if they're on the cheap, the best entry level MF cameras are TLRs.

agreed. the mamiyas and yashicas are quite good, solid and affordable.

> Other than for close ups they're really the best value out there. And
> then after that I'd go with one of the new Japanese RF cameras - can't
> go wrong there either. 

fuji rangefinders are truly some excellent quality, oh how I do lust
after them. (DH: e.g. GW670, GW690 etc.)

> I don't think people should be steered to Kievs
> unless they have a compelling reason to use an SLR and they don't have a
> lot of dough. 

also agreed. well, it depends on the type of person...I think this is
the point where we can stop speaking generally.

> Obviously the selection of lenses is tempting but I've
> used a Kiev 35mm camera (Kiev 19M) and I think a Kiev could produce
> quite a shock to a new MF user.

shock is perhaps an understatement!

having said all that, I personally have an 88CM from kiev camera and I
absolutely adore it. I was *this* close to getting a fuji 6x9 RF from
robert white, but the lenses on any of their new models are a bit too
short for what I usually do (and didn't feel like tracking down the
older interchangeable model).

and as you mentioned, the selection and price of P6 lenses is very very
attractive. there are just so many excellent (ah, czj) lenses that have
been made, not to mention the nice ones that hartblei is still producing.

but of course when friends (photographer or non- ) see it, the first
reaction is "ooh shiny!" and their natural reaction is to fool with all
the knobs, which on just about any other camera would be no problem. the
second reaction of photographer friends is of course to ask how much the
lenses cost, and then to assume a highly pained expression when they
find out.

basically owning a kiev seems to mean that you should not mind tinkering
with your equipment (or even enjoy doing so) and that you should not
have the expectation that it will always be perfect and hassle-free.
there are certainly much greater risks or balances to be considered, and
some will find the trade-offs to be worth it while others will not. I'm
sure that something as simple as non-coupled metering is enough to turn
off many people.

the fact that I didn't have to sell any organs to afford it also means
that I don't have to worry at all when I take it out of the house. lost?
broken? stolen? not such a big worry beyond sentimental attachment.

truly one of those things that a person will either love or hate
(speaking of which, whatever happened to mr. kramer? always found him a
little irritating, but I do hope he's still around...nice enough guy)



From: Marv Soloff msoloff@worldnet.att.net
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Newbies and the Kievs
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 

The problem with the Kiev line is the bad rap caused by an almost
negative quality control at Zavod Arsenal. However, I have a Kiev 60 and
it works and makes fine images. Mike Fourman at Kiev Camera is offering
(in his eBay store) a brand new Kiev 88CM complete set at $470.00 plus
shipping from Atlanta. That's with the P6 lensmount, cloth shutter, TTL
prism meter, TWO backs, case, etc. If you can work with Mike to assure
a fully working Kiev 88CM, with warranty, I don't see how you can go
wrong. Spend the money on lenses.

Regards,

Marv



From: Stacey fotocord@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Newbies and the Kievs
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 

Marv Soloff msoloff@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>The problem with the Kiev line is the bad rap caused by an almost
>negative quality control at Zavod Arsenal. However, I have a Kiev 60 and
>it works and makes fine images. Mike Fourman at Kiev Camera is offering
>(in his eBay store) a brand new Kiev 88CM complete set at $470.00 plus
>shipping from Atlanta. That's with the P6 lensmount, cloth shutter, TTL
>prism meter, TWO backs, case, etc. If you can work with Mike to assure
>a fully working Kiev 88CM, with warranty, I don't see how you can go
>wrong.

Depends on your patience. He doesn't fix problems, just sends another
unknown quality camera. I had one with small issues, made the mistake
of sending that one back and the ones I got after that were much
worse! Ended up just paying someone to fix it in the end as I got
tired of returning camera after camera.. I'm not the only person that
has found this kind of "warranty" isn't good for these cameras with
this bad a quality control. Given about 50% of the newer ones don't
work right, you don't have much of a chance.

Stacey


From: 4season four_season_photo@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Newbies and the Kievs
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 
I'd suggest using the Kiev more as a "niche" camera, and even then,
buying from a source known for good QC and tuning: I've purchased a Kiev
60 outfit from Michael Fourman, and I felt the camera was significantly
better than the ones that had come directly from Ukraine (I had two
others), yet the price was still low. And for the other 98% of the work,
heck, save up your pennies a little longer and buy something better! Do
a little research and consider buying gear from authorized dealers
overseas as price variations can be huge (but I think USA prices are now
falling nicely back in line in many instances.)

TLRs can take great photos, but I'll be the first to admit that they've
never quite "clicked" with me! I believe you can still purchase a
brand-new Bronica RF645 for around $1200 after rebates (various USA
dealers), a Bronica ETRSi for around $900 (Robertwhite.co.uk) and a Fuji
GA645zi for around $1200 (Robert White). These would be my preferred
routes. I figure that $1200 is about the cost of 24 months of basic
cable TV service, and I for one have decided that my photos give me a
bigger thrill than some cruddy rerun on the tube ;-)
...



From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 04 Mar 2003
Subject: Re: Hartblei and their likes

You might be interested in looking at the website of-ARAX Photo

www.araxphoto.com (0r www.araxfoto.com)

They are upgraders of Kiev 88 cameras that give a good warranty
and have a reasonably priced 6x6cm SLR starter kit of their
ARAX (Kiev 88) type camera.

- Sam Sherman



From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 03 Apr 2003 
Subject: Re: Kiev 88

Go to-

www.araxfoto.com

They have the standard battery adapters for those Kiev TTL prisms.

- Sam Sherman


From camera fix mailing list:
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 
From: William Wiseman elox@hot.rr.com
Subject: Re: Are Kievs fairly decent camera?

Yes and No:

I have a Kiev 88 with several backs and lenses. My experience has been
positive with the exception of one back that would not space correctly
no matter what was done. I simply replaced it at a cost of about $50. I
have the earlier version with the steel shutter curtains and my only
complaint has been a slightly erratic 1/1000 speed. That said, for
under $600 I have a kit that includes camera, 3 working backs,
waist-level finder, Spot/Avg metered prism (very accurate), 5 lenses
(45,65,80,150,250) and a set of extension tubes. If i were to add
anything it would be the newer polaroid back and maybe the ground glass
back.

Problems:

The top 1/1000 shutter speed shows banding on some shots so I don't use
it. Since I'm using a tripod and usually slower exposures, this is no
problem. I also had one back that I had to put in new seals to prevent
a slight light leak around the dark slide. Cost about $20 for materials
and about an hour on a rainy afternoon.

Things I wish it had:

Mirror lock up. This is available on the newer models. The P6 mount so
I could use the CZJ lenses. This is a minor complaint as I have found
the Arsat lenses to be better than expected.


JeffW.

P.S. If you are considering used and don't need lots of lenses to
start, another good camera would be the Mamiya m645. I have a couple of
them I picked up used on ebay and I use them more than any of my other
cameras.


From Kiev 88 Mailing List:
Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 
From: "photoissa" kiev88cm@hotmail.com
Subject: Kiev 88 , Kiev 60 , Kiev 6C and Salut repair at KievCamera inc

Dear Friends,
Unlike anyone else who sells Kiev equipment, our factory-trained
technicians inspect and test every piece of equipment we receive
from the factory before we ship it and then we warranty it for one
year.

Our expert technicians formerly worked at the Arsenal factory and
Hartblei company ; they know Kiev cameras, and just about every
other camera, inside and out. Plus, by dealing exclusively in
Russian and Ukrainian cameras, we have all the replacement parts and
technological expertise to upgrade these cameras. No other company
does the kind of work that we do here in our Ukrainian shop .

We offer complete in- and out-of-warranty repair services for KIEV
medium format cameras and lenses. We also offer an upgrade program
for Kiev medium format cameras which are either older or which were
not purchased from us.

We can repair vitually any camera, Russian or otherwise. Give us a
call at 770-4090026 or email us at kievcamera@hotmail.com for
information.

You won't wait forever for your repair either...typically, our
turnaround time is in the neighborhood of two to three weeks for our
USA customers with 1 year warranty.

thank you

Anna Klimenko


From kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 
From: "mank_s" mank_s@yahoo.com
Subject: Kiev 88 .. improvements and other misc issues

I agree with Sam that little oil be used very carefully to avoid any
damage to gears.

I one question: What spray you used? What brand etc?

Also for Sam .. Where to put oil in Kiev 60?
I guess Kiev 60 gears are on the left side when you remove the lens.
But I may be wrong .. also the speed control mechanism is not visible
in kiev 60 ..

Few misc topics in this same post:

1)

I modified Pentacon bellows to fit Kiev 88 .. its simple.
Just take the long extension tube for 88 and glue it on the back of
the bellows. You still need to use p6 mount lens for the front end
though, and markings on the bellows are then wrong (by 48mm).
Long tube leaves enough space for a cable release to be attached.
Its better to use 2 cable releases than one double cable release.
One is needed to stop the lens down.
Since there is no bellows made for 88, this may be the only way.
This can also be used to convert p6 mount reverse macro adapter to
use on 88.


2)
Micro tools sells ready to use black adhesive strips for light
baffeling. Code is LB-STRIP-2. These stips can be used to improve
many things in 88/88cm.
I have used these to improve back to body fitting.
I have replaced the "thread" thats used in the backs by this.
I have put it along the mirror border to reduce mirror slap.


3)
Micro tools also sells light baffle material sheets. These are very
useful in baffeling the body. (Don't forget backside of the mirror)
I used these to cover as much area as possible inside the body,
without affecting mirror operation. Rest of the area was painted by
black paint.
There is DEFINITE improvement in the picture quality after that.

4)  Lens shade for Mir 45mm .. its hard to find a shade for this lens.
And you MUST use a shade to get accetable results.
Pentax shade for Pentax 67 45mm lens is perfect for this
purpose (its slightly wider than perfect!). It does not vignate even
after a filter is used. Ebay has cheap deals sometimes.


Thanks
Mandar 


From kiev88 mailing list:
From: Jay Y Javier [mailto:nikitakat@edsamail.com.ph]
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003
To: Kiev88@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Kiev88] Kiev 88 Digital Back



A digital back made by Jenoptik was announced at Kievcamera. There's a
picture of it at the Jenoptik site attached to a K88. Has anyone in the
list seen this beastie live? And price-wise, is it priced proportionate to
the Kiev as to, say, Leaf or Kodak backs for the 'blad? (read: cheap!)

Jay


From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 13 May 2003
Subject: Re: Russian Equipment Curiosity

Many Kiev 60 and Kiev 88 6x6cm SLR (Ukranian. not Russian) cameras have left
the factory with the finder viewing screen out of alignment with the image the
film is receiving. It is near impossible to get critically sharp photos with
such cameras.

Once the viewing screens are aligned, the original Arsenal/Arsat lenses
and the Carl Zeiss Jena lenses in Kiev 60/P6 mount are generally very good and
sharp. With a good example of these lenses, and a camera
properly aligned, you will be hard pressed to see any difference in
sharpness between Kiev and Mamiya cameras.

For examples of very sharp images from Kiev medium format cameras
just go through this site-

www.kievaholic.com

- Sam Sherman



From kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2003 
From: Stephen Castello scastello@cfl.rr.com
Subject: Re: help removing a kiev 88 back

http://www.kievaholic.com/filmloading.html has instructions on loading film
and it shows the button to remove the back.

For an english manual:
http://www.commiecameras.com/sov/mediumformatcameras/singlelensreflexcameras/cameras/manuals.htm

The dark slide is what the Kiev 88 manual calls a shutter. After it's in,
slide the button on top of the back in the direction of the arrow. The back
will then detach. If the dark slide is not in, you won't be able to slide the
button. If you have one of the new NT backs, the release button is the one
without the plastic lock tab.

Stephen
...


From Kiev88 mailing list
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 
From: "anyaodessa2000" anyaodessa2000@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: New Kiev 88CM Light Leaks

Hello

Cheap easy fix for leaky back,,,wide elastic band that fits
comfortable over the back, seals the joint between camera and back
and easy to put on and take off :-)

Poka
Anya



From: Stacey fotocord@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: The sad story of the EXAKTA 66 - last episode: They'll never learn...
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 

Stacey fotocord@yahoo.com wrote:
>>Smaller, lighter and seems to work better at high shutter speeds 1/250 and
>>up, never have the banding I've seen on some K-60's.
>
> By that, do you mean the bands which can sometimes appear on the film
> if you change lenses in bright light after, rather before winding the
> film on?


Well I forgot about that problem... :-)

What I was talking about is the density "banding" that can be seen in clear
blue skies at 1/500 and 1/1000 on some K-60's. All K88's seem to have that
problem.

My hartblei sample doesn't do this (nor does it have any problems at all!)
but 2 of my other ones do. The really old worn ones I have don't have this
issue either.
--
Stacey


From: fotoralf@gmx.de (Ralf R. Radermacher)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: All that Kiev88 stuff for sale on ebay
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 

Stacey fotocord@yahoo.com wrote:
> I've bought a couple of P-6's real cheap that had "overlapping frames" and
> all I do is wind them like this and they work perfectly.

There is, however, a little more to this. Letting the leaver flip back
regularly will eventually knock teeth off one of the gears in the
winding mechanism. These are the P6's that will consistently 'fit' 14 or
even 15 frames on a roll of film and once this happens it can not be
cured by any particular winding technique.

The second problem comes from the auxiliary roller that measures the
advanced amount of film. At both ends, it has tiny gears with
needle-sharp tips. These tips normally pierce through the film in order
to avoid slip. With the years, those tips may wear down sufficiently
that they won't pierce the film any longer and then the roller won't
exactly register the film advance.

Similar trouble may arise with certain types of film regardless of the
state of the tips. Konica's 750 IR is one such candidate. In such cases,
pressing the film slightly on to the gears before closing the back after
loading usually helps.

A very detailed explanation of the mechanism, its quirks, and possible
cures can be found on the website of Foto Baier.
http://www.baierfoto.de/Messengl.html

HTH,
Ralf
--
Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - K"ln/Cologne, Germany
private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de


From kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 
From: "flexaret@sprynet.com" flexaret@sprynet.com
Subject: Re: Impressions of Hartblei


Hello Olivier,

It is not clear if this problem you had was with a "Hartblei" branded camera, was which one of the following:

1- Hartblei branded upgraded Kiev 88CM with black locking lens ring - not a true Hartblei camera.

2- Hartblei completely upgraded 1006 or 1008 camera made from original Kiev 88 (not an 88CM)
and upgraded with front "Twist and Lock" Mount - this would be a real Hartblei model, as opposed to
#1 - just a Hartblei upgraded Kiev 88CM

It is still not clear if any of these upgraded Kiev 88 types can stand up to the heavy load, heavy volume
work that professional photographers like yourself do.

I have several upgraded Kiev 88 types, including a recent version of the Kiev 88CM and all of these cameras
work just fine under the intermittent use I give them.

If I were to grind out hundreds of rolls of 120 per week - every week - I would seek a much sturdier camera,
perhaps a Hasselblad 500 series camera.

As for cameras taking your Pentacon 6 mount lenses directly - I can think of none of them that I could suggest
for high volume pro work. Even upgraded, none of them might suit that use.

On the other hand for lower volume use, they can be outstanding.

- Sam Sherman


Original Message:
-----------------
From: olivier firefly@uio.satnet.net
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 
To: Kiev88@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Kiev88] Impressions of Hartblei

my version hartblei live 3 days ...



From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 29 Jul 2003
Subject: Re: KIEV - ARAX camera`s?

I have found the Arax/upgraded Kiev 88 to be of fine quality.

I have also found the Kiev 88CM to be of good quality.

I also have a plain Kiev 88 upgraded by Kiev Camera with flocking and
wind crank - to be of superior quality.

You make your own choice.

- Sam Sherman


From: thomandpam@yahoo.com.au (Thom)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: KIEV - ARAX camera`s?
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003


"statusquooh"
 wrote:

>As KIEV cameras arent that expensive i wonder what about the quality of
>them?There is also ARAX a updated and modificated KIEV,anyone who has
>worked with them?
>
>mvg
>fred

the cameras right out of the box from the Arsenal factory are so so.
They tend to fail right out of the box or they are good. Because they
are so cheap some companies such as ARAX and Hartblei can afford to
get them in bulk and then rework them and do quality control. The so
called Kiev-88CM is such a case where they add a P mount and crank to
the basic unit.

Mike Foreman sells the basic 88 for $350 and the 88CM for $599 though
you see his CM's sold by him in eBay in the $450-500 range. he is
known to make sure that anything he sells is tested before its shipped
and if there is a problem just replaces the body outright. he also
now sells the Hartblei outright.

A camera more than anything else is the lens and you have to get sharp
lenses. I have heard various complaints and praises on this news
group.

THOM


From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 16 Jul 2003
Subject: Re: Kiev hassy backs: Do NT backs fit both?

Many Kiev 88CM, standard Kiev 88 and upgraded Kiev 88 cameras can work really
well. A great percentage of the problems come from the
backs and their (in)compatibility. While there have been upgraded Kiev 88 and
Kiev 88CM cameras made to accept Hasselblad backs and Kiev NT
backs have been upgraded (some) to fit Hasselblad cameras - note the following-

Hartblei did the engineering and the adapting of ALL of these items.
THEY have decided to discontinue such products based on occcasional
problems with them, while other users have had NO problems.

Why the Kiev 88 types are the way they are is not common knowledge.
Some believe that Arsenal (in Kiev) got the Hasselblad 1600F/1000F
from Hasselblad in some kind of USSR barter deal and others believe they just
copied it. I think it was a "deal" and the backs not made to interchange so
that Arsenal could not flood the market with cheap backs to compete with the
authentic products for Hasselblad cameras.
There is no doubt there is a difference in the gearing between Kiev and
Hasselblad models which is on purpose, not by accident.

In my opinion - it is best to use Kiev backs on Kiev cameras and Hasselblad
backs on Hasselblad cameras. Of course, you can always
contact Kiev Camera (www.kievcamera.com) who represents Hartblei and
find out if they still make or are willing to make Kiev cameras taking
Hasselblad backs and Kiev backs which fit Hasselblad cameras.

- Sam Sherman


From kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 
From: "J. Turner" james.turner4@ntlworld.com
Subject: Re: Arax cameras

--- In Kiev88@yahoogroups.com, "zone_iii_03" zone_iii_03@y... wrote:
> Hi,
> I've been to Arax website and note that the Arax versions of the
> 88CM don't seem have that awkward lens clamping lever. How do the
> Arax versions compare to what Mike is selling at Kiev Cameras?
> Jim


I asked a similar question on the Delphi Kiev forum and was advised 
by Rick Denny that these mounts (in this case Arax & 88CM) are the
same. The difference is the way in which they are implemented.
E.g.The Arax camera is a twist-and-lock mount, while the 88CM using a
rotating lock ring. With the former, you insert the lens and turn it
to the locked position, and with the latter, you insert the lens at
the final position and just turn the lock ring.
But it's the same lenses (Pentacon Six mount) either way.
It's actually the opposite of the old Canon FD mount, which put the
breech lock on the lens side instead of the camera side. Some lenses
are twist-and-lock, and others are breech-lock, but the camera bodies
are the same either way.

James
West Yorkshire...UK


From kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 
From: "flexaret@sprynet.com" flexaret@sprynet.com
Subject: RE: ajustment of the focusing screen


Jerome,

This is a common problem and easy to fix. ONLY IF YOU ARE HANDY WITH PRECISION WORK.
IF NOT- TAKE THIS TO ANY GOOD CAMERA REPAIRMAN.

You will need a piece of 6x6cm groundglass (like an old TLR focusing screen) or the 

Kiev Ground Glass back attachment.

Put the camera on a tripod pointing at an infinity subject - building chimney is good.
Use either 120MM or 180MM lens.

Use a loupe with the goundglass back or put the piece of 6x6cm groundglass with loupe 
on the rails of the open NT back.

Open the shutter to B - look at the groundglass in the NT back or the groundglass back with a sharp loupe.
Then focus sharply on the infinity subject - forget if the lens reads infinity or not - the 180MM Sonnar
focuses past infinity.

Now close shutter and wind and look through your finder and see if the image is sharp on the outer groundglass
collar beyond the center split image and microprism on the finder screen.

If it is sharp then okay. - if not the finder screen has to be moved up or down.

To do this remove the finder and unscrew the 4 clips holding the groundglass (in its frame) in the
finder well. Remove the screen. Under it there are 4 screws - one in each corner to adjust focus position.
They screw up or down. If you are trying to adjust focus turn each corner screen about 1/2 turn
in one direction or the other - but be sure you turn each of the 4 screws the same amount each time.
You will discover if you have to move the screen up or down to get a sharp image at infinity - when the back groundglass is
giving a sharp image at infinity.

This takes less time to do than write about. I have found many Kiev 88 cameras need this adjustment.

Good luck-

Sam Sherman

Original Message:
-----------------
From: jeromerg@free.fr
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 
To: Kiev88@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Kiev88] ajustment of the focusing screen


Hi, everyone,

about the ajustment of the focusing screen,

I have a Kiev88CM and many russian and german lenses.

I believe that this problem is complex:
the focusing screen should be adjusted
for a reference lens (but wich one ?)

then the various lenses should be tuned
for the body. Because nearly every lens could
(and often does)
focus differently at infinite point.

Jerome (Paris, France)


From kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 
From: "flexaret@sprynet.com" flexaret@sprynet.com
Subject: RE: Re: ajustment of the focusing screen

Parlin,

I have found most Kiev 88 cameras to be slightly off infinity focus alignment.

Once I properly aligned the cameras I started getting crisply focused shots
I did not get before under all apertures and conditions.

Not everybody can do this precise alignment themselves and that is why I sometimes
suggest going to a pro camera repairman.

For those who are very handy it is easy to learn how to do and well worth the effort.

After aligning the groundglass for infinity - I then double check at the closest macro
settings with a variety of lenses. I rarely have to re-adjust as I do a precise infinity adjustment.

Best,

Sam Sherman


From: Stacey fotocord@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Reputable Pentacon/Kiev sellers?
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 

Nick Zentena wrote:

> I'd like to get the low part of a high/low setup. At the moment it
> seems I'm leaning towards the Pentacon but I can be convinced to look at
> the Kiev 6/60s. Who are the reputable dealers?
>
> 

For pentacons, try cupog on ebay. I've bought 2 from him and both work well.
The main problem with pentacons is the frame counter, which can be solved
by winding them "correctly". www.geocities.com/kievgurl/pentaconfix.html

People seem to be very happy with the kievs from http://araxfoto.com/ The
kievs have a better winder but can have problems with shutter light leaks.
I check mine on a regular basis with a flashlight through the lens mount
while winding. My favorite Kievs are the ones modified by Hartblei but
these are difficult to find anymore.

Bottom line with the P-6 camera's, you have to suffer with poor bodies to
use the excellent cheap lenses.

More kiev info at www.geocities.com/kievgurl

--
Stacey


From: "Tom Pisciotta" tompisciotta@kc.rr.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Reputable Pentacon/Kiev sellers?
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 

Try these:
http://www.kievusa.com/

http://araxfoto.com/

http://www.kievcamera.com/

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rodin/490/

Also try these groups

http://kievaholic.com/

http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/main.asp?webtag=kievreport&nav;=start

Tom

"Nick Zentena" zentena@kriek.dyndns.org wrote
> I'd like to get the low part of a high/low setup. At the moment it
> seems I'm leaning towards the Pentacon but I can be convinced to look at the
> Kiev 6/60s. Who are the reputable dealers?
>
> Thanks
>
> Nick



From: Stacey fotocord@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: a12 and a12 with 12 release?
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 

Bandicoot wrote:
> "Stacey" fotocord@yahoo.com wrote...
> [SNIP]
>> Thanx to both. I kinda figured it out looking at some pictures of some
>> online but didn't know the details. Just making sure there isn't
>> something weird about either of them.
>
> So do we assume your 'blad compatible Hartblei has arrived? what's it
> like?

So far seems nice. The WLF is a total useless POS due to the same crappy
magnifier all 88 WLF's have, thank goodness the blad WLF fits! The kiev
prism seems fine. The body winds smoothly and the shutter works good at all
speeds. They recovered it in some nice black leatherette and added MLU. The
replaced the screen with a rollei but it was an older (non-D) and I
installed a maxwell in it's place. It wasn't bad, just hate focusing aides.

www.geocities.com/kievgurl/hartblei.htm

I ordered it with one kiev NT back but plan on using blad backs to avoid
the problems with kiev's backs. The kiev back is smooth enough with film
but has a little of the kiev "crunch" at the end of the wind empty. Also on
the second roll of film, the kiev back wound the paper tape onto a film
gate roller and jammed. Opened it in the darkroom and knew better than to
force anything on one of these.. I ordered a blad back onight from KEH and
don't want to risk -trashing- the camera with the kiev back!

I'll make a better report once I get a good back for it and use it more. I
think using blad backs via a hartblei 1006 is the only way to attempt to
use a K88. Otherwise the K60/pentacon-6 is a much better option.

--
Stacey



 
From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2) 
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format 
Date: 31 Aug 2003 
Subject: Re: Hartbeli story was Re: a12 and a12 with 12 release? 

There are three basic types of MLU (mirror pre-release) that have been added to 
Kiev 88 upgraded cameras. 
1- Type 1 - Front push button style. 
2- Type 2 - Hartblei style with side lever near shutter release. 
The lever turns in one direction to pre-release the mirror only. 
3- Type 3- Hartblei style from discontinued Studio Master (SM model)- which has 
a (different lever around the wind knob) and can return the mirror after 
releasing it and before taking the picture. This type of MLU if not used 
properly and the wind knob/shutter speed dial not used properly could jam up 
the camera. This type had a reputation for damaging the shutter gearing. This 
type is discontinued and nobody 
adapts it to any cameras today. 
I think Mike Fourman would rather not add MLU to the Kiev 88CM 
as a potential problem to add to a new design camera (not the old Kiev 88 
style). I think he is correct in that idea. 
While I am not an advocate of MLU of any kind, I do have cameras with Type 1 
and Type 2 MLU - which both function flawlessly. Arax uses 
the Type 1 style and I doubt that this will cause any problem in the 
general functioning of the camera. While Kevin Ing has had cameras with both 
#1 and #2 MLU and both self-destructed, I tend to believe it was 
for other reasons and only a coincidence that those cameras had MLU. 
You should be able to order and use your Arax camera with MLU and not have any 
problems because you ordered the MLU. 

-Sam Sherman 	 



From: kevin_i@my-deja.com (kevin_i) 
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format 
Subject: Re: Hartlei K88 
Date: 5 Sep 2003 

Hi, Stacey. 
Just to offer another opinion... I think the "almost promised" is a 
bit of an overstatement when talking about the problems with light 
leaks, jammed gearing etc. Granted, the risk of problems IS there... 
these are Kievs after all. 
As we well know, Kiev quality control is in the toilet... because the 
Kievs are hand made and hand assembled with probably not a whole lot 
of care from the factory workers. Because of this I've found that it 
is VERY important that you have film backs that are well matched to 
the camera body. Of all the Kiev film backs and bodies I have, there 
are some that are great combinations... and others that will not mate 
at all. 
One bit of advice for other Kiev users: If you have a good set, keep 
it a set and don't let the pieces get lost or mixed up. 
-Kevin 
Stacey fotocord@yahoo.com wrote 
> Q.G. de Bakker wrote: 
> > Stacey wrote: 
> >> Well I've finally had some time to try this camera for a little while and 
> > [...] 
> > 
> > Reading all this i cannot but wonder what the advantage is in buying an 
> > Hartblei overhauled Kiev over buying a "fresh" one from the factory? 
> 
> 
> The "advantage" with the Hartblei is with a factory kiev you are stuck with 
> using the shitty kiev backs. With the kiev backs you are almost promised 
> problems with light leaks, jammed gearing etc. The hartblei is modified to 
> use blad backs so the kiev ones aren't used, taking that out of the 
> picture. The hartblei also uses a different type of lens mount which is 
> easier to deal with than what the K88CM has. The regular K88 uses the OLD 
> 'blad screw type mount which limits lens choices. The factory K88's focus 
> screen would also be out of adjustment, the WLF would still suck and you'd 
> HAVE to live with the shitty kiev backs. No thanks! 
> 
> If it was possible to use a modified 2000 blad with my lenses, I'd be all 
> for it but that doesn't appear possible. I have no love for these bodies, 
> just the cheap/good optics. If I could get a 'blad 55mm shift and 30mm 
> fisheye for $450, I'd sell all my P6 mount stuff! 
> 
> 
> > Were we not led to believe (with you singing prominently in that choir) 
> > that only buying factory Kievs is a lottery with very little chance of 
> > winning and that these "adjusted" cameras were "no fear" thingies? ;-) ;-) 
> 
> That was when I was naive.  ANY kiev body is a gamble and almost every 
> one I've bought needed some tweaking before use. If you don't like the idea 
> of this, don't buy one. Some just seem to hold up better than others. If 
> you don't like the idea of this, don't buy one. I don't think, for a kiev, 
> having to adjust the focus screen and buy some good accessories (the 
> factory K88 ones would suck just as bad...) to end up with a usable camera 
> is a bad deal! 


From: Stacey fotocord@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format 
Subject: Hartlei K88 
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 

Well I've finally had some time to try this camera for a little while and 
wanted to post my thoughts. First this was not ordered from the 
hartblei.com website as there is some question as to who actually owns that 
site. I found a guy on the delphi forums who knows the owner of the "real" 
hartblei and he special ordered me this camera which took them almost a 
year to deliver! I wanted a twist and click pentacon-6 mount body with 
black metal shutter curtains that would accept hasselblad backs instead of 
kiev backs and had MLU/pre-release (1006M). I figured the camera was 
designed for metal cutains and cloth curtains while quieter might drag and 
cause banding. Also the owners of the metal curtain cameras seem to have 
less shutter problems so that sounded like the way to go. It also seemed 
that a LOT of the problems with these stem from the backs so I wanted to be 
able to use 'blad backs. I did order one kiev NT back modified to be blad 
compatable with the camera. I also had them install a rollei bright screen 
instead of the standard K88 screen. 
My first outing with the camera wasn't that great (big surprize huh?). 
First the WLF that comes with the camera is useless. The magnifier is out 
of focus (10mm+ too high from the screen) and is REALLY distorted. Also 
Hartblei didn't have the focus screen adjusted right so every shot was out 
of focus. Also the camera had the classic kiev-88 nutcracker "crunch" sound 
at the end of each wind which isn't very confidence inspiring. Then at the 
end of the roll the tape wound around one of the guide rollers and jamed 
the camera/back where I couldn't get it to crank off to the end of the 
roll. Oh well it is a kiev... 
So I went home and did some work. The prism is optically OK and decided to 
use it until I can hunt down a 'blad WLF. Also I didn't care for the rollei 
screen as I've been spoiled by using Maxwell screens and since I had a 
spare, I replaced the rollei screen with a Maxwell and used the kiev back 
(it's hinged so you can put a piece of GG on the film gate) to adjust the 
screen to the film plane. Also I ordered a 'blad A12 back from KEH and 
checked that it fit right, it did. 
What a difference! With the blad back the camera winds really smooth with 
no weird noises at all. The Maxwell screen is wonderful and the prism works 
fine. Nice frame spacing, good shutter speeds and no shutter banding. It 
seems the =main= problem with the K-88 is the kiev backs and buying a model 
that accepts 'blad backs allows you to use =good= backs which makes the 
camera operate smoothly. Also like any kiev the simple things like screen 
adjustment etc must be checked as even the upgraders seem to miss these 
details. The Hartblei P-6 twist and click mount they fabricate is very nice 
and all my Carl Zeiss Jena and arsat lenses fit like they should. 
On hind sight if I was ordering this camera again, I'd skip the kiev NT 
modified back and the rollei screen upgrade as well as the WLF. That would 
have saved about $170-200 and would have been around $400 instead of the 
$570 I paid for this one. I suppose I can sell the screen and the back -is- 
handy for checking screen adjustment and gives me a spare darkslide. Plus I 
was able to see how crappy the kievs backs are!  All in all I'm happy 
with what I ended up with and feel like (from the other K-88's I've 
handled) this works like a camera is supposed to. I'm going to hunt down 
another A12 back or two and a 'blad WLF and this should be a nice camera 
kit. Of course the best part is all my negatives will now have the 'blad 
V's on them :-) 
-- 
Stacey 
www.geocities.com/kievgurls 


From: Stacey fotocord@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format 
Subject: Shots of Kiev factory and new K-88 site request 
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003


Just in case anyone wants to see where these things are made. 
http://www.souvenirs.com.ua/arsenal.php 
Also looking for "portraits" of anyone's odd K-88 that isn't already on the 
site. Looking for shots of the "BIG" style or any other modified versions. 
See the site for the format and address to send them to. TIA for any 
submissions, credit will be given to the owner of the cameras. -- 
Stacey 
My new K-88 site www.geocities.com/kievgurls 



[Ed. note: and you thought they just made cameras ;-) ]
From: fotoralf@gmx.de (Ralf R. Radermacher) 
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format 
Subject: Re: Shots of Kiev factory and new K-88 site request 
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 


Stacey fotocord@yahoo.com wrote: 
> Just in case anyone wants to see where these things are made. 
> http://www.souvenirs.com.ua/arsenal.php 
This is the text and photos from a brochure made in the early 80's that 
they handed out at international trade fairs. I still have the printed 
version, somewhere. 
The complete thing also includes descriptions of their cameras and their 
other products: 
- banknote counting machines 
- dialysis machines 
- optical measuring equipment 
- car headlights 
- plastic toys 
- harpoons 
- fishing hooks 
:-) 
Ralf 
-- 
Ralf R. Radermacher 



Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 
From: "ian.g.martin" ian.g.martin@btopenworld.com
Subject: [Russiancamera] Russian Cameras & History 
To: "Russian Camera Users"  
I am currently reading a biography of Khrushchev by William Taubman(an 
American , so in American English!) 

Its a very good book for a direct insight into the FSU when it was at the 
peak of its power 

However what I wanted to tell you about is a comment he made during the 
height of the Gary Powers U2 crisis,when the USA had sent a spy plane that 
had been taking pictires of the USSR and had been shot down. 
The Russians developed the pictures 

Khrushchev commented to a packed meeting hall " THE PICTURES ARE EXCELLENT 
BUT I MUST SAY THAT OUR CAMERAS TAKE BETTER PICTURES AND ARE MORE ACCURATE" 
(laughter in the hall) 

So maybe he was a fan ? or maybe they were laughing because they all had 
bottom loading Zorki's ? 

regards 
Ian 


From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2) 
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format 
Date: 02 Oct 2003 
Subject: Re: Kiev Carl Zeiss/Arsat vs hassy C lenses? (I'm serious!) 

The current model Kiev 88CM camera works very well and is 
reasonably well made. The same can be said for various upgraded 
Kiev 88 cameras. I have a group of the above and they are hardly the 
junk described in the previous posts. Add to these cameras some of the Carl 
Zeiss Jena, Schneider, Hartblei and recent Arsat lenses and 
one can have quite an excellent outfit at low prices. The equipment is 
Ukrainian, not Russian. 

To read more about this go to the Delphi Forum - Kiev Report 
or www.kievaholic.com, which has lots of information and a link 
to Delphi. 

Many people throughout the world are using this equipment successfully today 
for excellent results. 

I met a photographer who did a side by side comparison test of 
subjects taken with Hasselblad and Kiev 88. The owner of the Hasselblad 
could not tell the difference in the final results. 
The Carl Zeiss Jena and other optics can produce results comparable to 
Hasselblad and other top brands, at very low cost. 

Of course, Hasselblad owners will call this heresy and scream and 
yell that this is impossible, but the facts speak for themselves. 
Hasselblad makes great equipment at very high prices for commercial, 
government and industrial work, capable of superb results. For the pro or 
amateur who cannot afford such equipment, the Kiev and related equipment offer 
high quality medium format results at bargain 
prices. 

- Sam Sherman


From: "JIRI" navratil22@kn.vutbr.cz
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Realy new Kiev 88CM mlu
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 

I want to start with medium format i got lots of experience with SLRs and i
want to start with this camera....there is a realy new Kiev 88CM MLU
(http://www.kievcamera.com/camera.php?ID=124 )

lots of new upgrades and still the removeable backs...
a.. Re-designed Breech-lock lens mount (same as Pentacon 6)allows to use all
German made lenses
a.. Re-building and up-grading of the shutter mechanism for better
reliability
a.. Rebuilding the shutter mechanism for most accurate exposures Elimination
of any vibration from mirror movement
a.. Instalation of the special tripod plate
a.. Additional treatment of the camera with an additional flocking that
prevents any flare, for better image contrast
a.. The installation of Hartblei special focusing screen ( much brighter)
with horizontal and vertical lines
a.. New ergonomic side shutter release button for smoother shutter operation
a.. Installation of a new, re-designed rapid-winding crank providing smooth
film advance and shutter cocking.
a.. Adjustment of the film advance mechanism for accurate frame spacing and
smooth film advance
a.. Testing the film magazines for light leaks
a.. Testing the TTL /Spot prism viewfinder and the elimination of any
manufacturing defects
a.. In addition, the Kiev 88CM MLU has a thicker front
of the body casting, resulting in a more durable and accurate lens mount




From: Stacey fotocord@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Realy new Kiev 88CM mlu
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 

JIRI wrote:

> I want to start with medium format i got lots of experience with SLRs and
> i want to start with this camera....there is a realy new Kiev 88CM MLU
> (http://www.kievcamera.com/camera.php?ID=124 )

As with any kiev, quality control is still an issue. Doesn't matter who
"upgrades" them, it's still a kiev. Don't get me wrong, I use these cameras
and like them but I think -some people- try to pass these off as being as
well made as the Japanese or European made cameras. They aren't. The lenses
are great, the camera bodies are crap.


> a.. Re-building and up-grading of the shutter mechanism for better
> reliability
> a.. Rebuilding the shutter mechanism for most accurate exposures
> Elimination of any vibration from mirror movement



On the kiev report a few people have bought some recent "upgraded by
Hartblei" (whoever the hell that is now...) K-88CM's from kievcamera, only
to find they still have shutter issues, light leaks, mirror alignment
problems etc. One guy just went through 2 bad ones before he got a useable
one yet still has severe banding problem at 1/500 and 1/1000. My Hartblei
1006M, from back when there was a "real" Hartblei, came with the focus
screen WAY out of adjustment although otherwise works great. I attribute
much of this to the fact this 1006M camera uses 'blad backs rather than the
crappy kiev ones and that is was made with metal shutter curtains.

My experience with Kievcamera's claim that their "cameras are tested" is
BS. I was sold an totally unusable camera (back popped open when the
shutter was fired!) that was a warranty replacement for another less broken
camera and was actually told by Mike that he had personally checked this
camera out! After this happened (among other problems, poor communication
etc), I recommend taking anything said by this company with a grain of
salt. These latest ads are -over the top- IMHO.

I personally believe the 88CM isn't the route I would take if I wanted a
K-88. The camera was originally designed for a metal shutter curtains and
the cloth shutter curtains are thicker which seems to cause banding
problems, which K88's are prone to anyway. At this time, I think ARAX is
producing the best kiev upgraded cameras (titanium foil shutter curtains
can be installed) and as you're dealing with the up-grader directly, you're
going to get better service.

With Kievcamera, if you get a bad camera (about a 25%+ chance) he just
swaps it out for another camera which you then get to test until hopefully
you finally get a good one. With Arax if there is a problem, they fix that
problem on that camera, instead of starting out with an unknown camera with
unknown problems that may be worse than the one you want warranty work done
on!


All this said, unless you REALLY have to be able to swap film backs, the
K-60 is a MUCH better choice. No you can't pose like you're using a 'blad
and in all their wisdom arsenal decided to stop making them in favor of a
fixed back 88C, but these can be a very good camera. Again ARAX is doing a
great job with these, the price is very reasonable (You can buy a K-60 MLU
kit and a second body for less than a K-88CM kit) and have something very
usable.
--

Stacey


From: Stacey fotocord@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: KIEV camera
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 

Ralf R. Radermacher wrote:

> Stacey fotocord@yahoo.com wrote:
>> It has a built in back instead of swapable ones.
> How utterly pathetic.

Yep, my thoughts exactly. Seems they want to stop making the K-60 (the only
reliable camera they make) so this was their answer. Seems stupid to me.
--
Stacey



From: Stacey fotocord@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: KIEV camera
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 

Ralf R. Radermacher wrote:
> JIRI navratil22@kn.vutbr.cz wrote:
>> Hi everybody. have you ever tested the NEW Kiev 88CM medium format camera
>> with Mirror lock up??? I would be happy for all informations....Thanx...
> NEW???

Actually there is a new 88C MLU

http://www.kievcamera.com/camera.php?ID=123

It has a built in back instead of swapable ones. Suposed to avoid the
problems with kiev backs. But then again I'd just get a K-60 unless someone
just wants a poser type camera as what is the point in a camera like this
that doesn't have a removable back?
--
Stacey


From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 09 Nov 2003 
Subject: Re: Kiev 88 & 220

One can use old style Kiev backs with 220 film.

Cover the back peephole with dark tape, wind with back off camera and dark
slide out until you see the beginning of the film taped onto the backing paper.

Then put the dark slide in and put the back on the camera and remove the dark
slide.- wind the handle a little further (test this) and set counter for 1).

Now shoot 12 photos and reset the counter to 1 - then add 12 to whatever number
you see in the counter and you should be good for 24-27 photos on
220. This is possible, simple and costs nothing.

- Sam Sherman


From: "Ken S" Nospamthanks@bogus.comedy
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 88 & 220
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 

Hey Stacey,

I have not called them and asked, however their price list was updated on 5
November 2003. This would suggest that the page is current and the 220 backs
are $325

http://www.kievusa.com/kievpricelist.html

Ken


"stacey" fotocord@yahoo.com wrote ...
> Lew wrote:
> > Are there any 220 backs for the Kiev 88?
> Very few. I've seen a couple for sale over the years but most are 120. I'm
> using a Hartblei that is 'blad compatable that accepts 'blad 220 backs that
> are easy to find. Someone posted a link to kievUSA showing 220 backs? This
> is news to me but they may have some??
> --
> Stacey



From: stacey fotocord@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: future of 120/220? Re: cine film keeping alive still film
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 

Bob Monaghan wrote:
> I suspect most MF models continue to be available from either existing
> stocks (as with Kiev?

Actually kiev's are still being produced at arsenal and they even have come
out with a new model, a K88 type with a fixed back. The did stop making
K-60's in 1995 but started back up in 2000.
--
Stacey



From: Stacey  fotocord@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Realy new Kiev 88CM mlu
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 

Bandicoot wrote:
> "Stacey" fotocord@yahoo.com wrote
>> The problem is the "real" Hartblei who did these 1006/1008 upgrades now
>> seems to be gone (?) and whoever is producing the newest samples seems to
>> be producing questionable QC so the day for those "blad back" models may be
>> gone...
>
> Shame if that is so.
>
> Do you know if the Hartblei lenses are suffering from the same QC issues
> these days? I had been wondering about trying one of those nice looking
> 150mm f2.8s they're doing.

The lenses seem to be fine. When I bought my Hartblei, the person I bought
it from (who knows the owner of Hartblei) said he was told this was one of
the last "real" Hartblei cameras as they figured out they were losing money
on the camera bodies but -were- making money upgrading the lenses. In the
former FSU trademarks mean nothing so someone else can easily make up some
Hartblei badges and claim they are Hartblei. I don't think other people
have the ability to make lens mounts, clamp rings etc to make bogus
Hartblei lenses so I don't think these are going to be any problem.

But on this subject, I just bought a plain 150mm f2.8 from DVD technic and
it works really well. Seems these have a pretty good coating and build from
the factory and most users I talked with said they have no flare problems
so there may not be any reason to pay extra for an MC'd Hartblei version?
They do look nice though!

--
Stacey


From: Stacey fotocord@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Realy new Kiev 88CM mlu
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 

steven.sawyer@banet.net wrote:
> I remember reading that the Kiev 88 (not P6) lenses had a aperture pin, which
> was an improvement over the previous Salut lenses. Would this pin couple
> the aperture to the prism a la the Exakta 66?

The early salyut's had a manual aperture, the pin of the K-88 and P-6 lenses
automated the aperture. None ever were linked to the prism. Several
companies have modified the K88 bodies to use P-6 lenses with a
"twist/click" mount machined into the front of the body. These seem to work
great. See a few different samples of K88 models at the bottom of this
page:

http://www.geocities.com/kievgurls/
--
Stacey



From: Christian Kolinski usenet1@blafh.de
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Asking advice
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 
Bugs Bunny bugs@acme.org wrote:
> Bugs Bunny bugs@acme.org wrote
>> Group,
>>
>> Been all my life fascinated by Hassy but never had cash reserve to buy one.
>>
>> So this has led me to question very similar like Hamlet
>>
>> a) buy ARAX88 (Kiev) model with lenses I consider fullfilling the
>> basic photographic subjects - pets, persons, scenery, architecture
>>
>> b) or tighten the belt one notch more and save save save and buy
>> refurb Hassy 500CM or similar and couple lenses
>>
>> Advice is asked - to B) or not to B)
>>
>> Yours truely
>> /Jukka aka Bugs
> After reading few replies I am getting the picture 'buy cheap, end up
> buying the cheap twice or the costlier alternative and burn up cash
> you could've used in the first place buying higher bucks item'

I'm have the impression that some of the 'blad guys mix up some
facts:

1. I agree, the original Kiev is a unreliable PIA. So don't buy
one of those "$150 on ebay" Kievs. You won't get happy with it.

2. If you buy a refurbished Kiev from one of the reputable companys
like ARAX or Wiese, you get a very reliable camera for the price of
2 'blad backs.

3. There're some other companies produceing cameras priced between
a Kiev and a Hassy. Bronica (if it has to be 6x6) or Mamiya (6x4.5
and 6x7).

> Ok, lessee ... at first I need body, two 120 backs, WA and tele
> (120 - 180mm) - body with 80mm roughly 1600Euro, two backs 500Euros ...
> with approx. budget 2500-3000Euros does not leave much for WA + tele

Lets see: (prices listed on M. Wiese's Homepage):

If you want a hassy-lookalike:

Pentasix 636:
Body, 2 Backs 6x6, WLF, TTL-Prism(!), Lens 80mm, MLU, improved shutter
(black cloth), and a Rollei screen (very bright compared to the original
Kiev one), P6 mount: 1100Euro

If you accept a Kiev60 rebuild (no backs):
Pentasix with prism and Rollei screen: 650Euro

That leaves you aprox. 1400-1900Eur for lenses!
And even "expensive" lenses like the 30mm Arsat are 300Eur
to 500Eur (new coating). A 45mm Shift is 720Eur.

Oh, no family relationship or finacial benefits.
I had the oportunity to take a few rolls of film with
a Wiese Kiev-Six and if I hadn't allready bought Mamiya
gear...

Christian
usenet1@blafh.de



From: Stacey fotocord@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Asking advice
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 


> Stacey fotocord@yahoo.com schrieb:
>
>>I have several kievs and think the K-60 is the simpler, more reliable of
>>the 2 cameras. That said I just got an ARAX K88 that I special ordered
>>with their titanium foil shutter, in the twist-click P-6 mount and 3
>>rebuilt old type backs and it's smooth as silk. I also have a Hartblei
>>1006c (88 in P-6 mount) that was converted to use 'blad backs and this new
>>ARAX is just as smooth.
>
> I tend to believe it's the magazine that makes the camera work smooth,
> not vice versa.

Exactly. The NT back that came with my Hartblei sounds like a nutcracker. I
think most of the problems the K-88's have it due to crappy backs. Also
there are no parts avalible for the NT backs, not even light seals, while
'blad seals work on the old backs. Also that clam shell back is just more
places for light to leak...


>>Sure the kievs aren't the best build camera on the planet,
>
> But the ones who improved the most during the recent 5 years. The CM
> was a big step forward

I disagree. The CM has a cloth shutter which is a step backwards IMHO and
the lockring mount isn't nearly as nice or easy to use as the twist click
modified type.
--
Stacey



From: "Sherman" nobody@dunnam.net
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Kiev 88 question - Light leaks
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004


"Yannis Exidaridis" jexi@noc.uoa.gr wrote
> Recently I bought a 6x4.5 film back for my Kiev 88.
> I used it about 2 months ago and noticed that a couple or more shootings
> were suffered from light leaks. I thought that it was my fault.
>
> But recently (in a short journey) I shoot some pictures again with the
> same film back and had light leaks again. I never had light leaks with
> the 6x6 film back so i try to find where is the problem.
>
> I wonder if the film back (although new) is causing light leaks.
> How can i face it? Is there another kiev owner out there with the same
> problem?
>
> Regards
> Yannis

A mechanic once told me "just because it is new doesn't mean it isn't
broken!". That applies to Kievs probably more than any other camera. I own
a Kiev 88CM and had light leaks in one back (6x6 NT). The leaks were my
fault, I had tried to force the darkslide in when I shouldn't have and
damaged the light seal. I'd start there.

You can check where the leak is in general by looking at the negatives.
Remember that the image projected onto the film by the lens is upside down
and reversed left to right. Put the film up to the back in the right
orientation and you can tell approximately where the light is getting in.

Sherman
http://www.dunnamphoto.com



From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: 01 Dec 2003 
Subject: Re: VHB conspiracy vs Bronica? ;-)

There are many upgraded Kiev 88 Models with Pentacon 6 lens mount,
Rapid Wind Crank and Black Metal Shutter Curtains (Hartblei and others)
which are proving every day that they work very well in the hands of the
owners of these cameras. I have a couple, and can vouch for this.

There is little doubt that this work (now done in Ukraine) is an improvement
over the original Hasselblad 1600F and 1000F.
And, sure it is possible that these Hartblei-style cameras could be
improved even more in mechanical shutter design. However, the cameras
wind smoothly and can produce even exposures with no banding to
1/1000 speed.

The problem with metal shutter curtains is that the user has to be careful to
not, by acccident, do anything to damage them. Even careful workers have been
known to damage such curtains easily. Cloth curtains,
on the other hand, are not easily damaged by handling and yet,
in cameras without Instant Return Mirror, it is possible to have the sun burn a
hole in such shutter curtains.

As for even exposure without banding, I have a Kiev 88CM with cloth shutter
curtains that gives perfect exposures to 1/1000 without banding,
but have I examined others which had this problem. My conclusion is that
cloth shutter curtains will work properly in a Kiev 88 design camera which is
very carefully adjusted, as the cloth curtains are more sensitive to shutter
problems.

The proof of the above is in the Hasselblad 200 and 2000 series cameras.
These are precisely made cameras and usually have shutters with proper
exposure. However, the chance of damage and problems with metal curtains led
Hasselblad back to cloth curtains, which they probably have
running precisely and without possible sun damage as the cameras have Instant
Return Mirrors.

- Sam Sherman



From kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 
From: "Dale Dickerson" dale.dickerson@verizon.net
Subject: RE: the crappy camera (was Pentacon Six vs Kiev 60)

Stephe,


Clearly we approach the Kiev 88CM in totally different ways and for
difference uses.

When paying for a Kiev 88CM that includes a warranty with it, that Kiev
88CM should be ready to use out of the box with no light leaks or other
problems. That is not an exaggerated claim. 

There are two ways to buy Kiev 88 cameras to have them working. One is
buy with a warranty and pay the higher price for it. If it has any
problem, write down the serial numbers and send it back demanding a new
one.

Two is buy a cheap new Kiev 88 and (knowing before you buy) someone in
your area that is a professional camera repairman and who knows how to
work on the camera. When the cheap 88 kit arrives, open it be sure all
the piece are in there, seal it back up and send it to the repairman for
a cla. Upon its return from the cla, you are ready to use it. This is
how I bought my first two Kiev 88s. I had years of trouble free service
from them.

I purchase the Kiev 88CM with a warranty. When my latest kit came, it
had a bad ttl meter. A replacement arrived three days later. After that,
and now 18 month later the camera has shown no problems. If it had a
problem, I am not the one to fix it. I am all thumbs on camera repair.
As an all mechanical camera, a Kiev 88Cm need regular cla. Mine gets
every 6 months, if I did not use it much it would be every two years.

I know Delphi gives reports of failures. Some failures are from buying
cheap and not getting a professional cla. About a 1/3 are people who
simply do not understand how to and how not to work with the camera.
These people damage the camera. Others seem to be chasing some dream
custom made version. These custom made versions like the ones with MLU
modify the design in ways that impact the durability. The buyers then
write reviews which white wash the whole Kiev 88 as the problem and not
the modification's poor design. The balance are problem cameras that got
shipped out to the customer.

A Kiev 88CM will last about six months using about 50 rolls a week. At
the six month point the shutter is finished and need to be replaced. So
I replace the camera body, keeping same the lens, ttl, hood and backs. I
put $50 aside from each wedding for equipment repairs and replacement.
That more then covers replacement cycle and cla needs of the 88CM, plus
my Rolleiflex.

As for calling them crappy cameras, my Kiev 88Cm serves me well. It gets
used at weddings and portrait sessions along with my Rolleiflex 6008.
The 6008 is more durable and will out last at least 6 Kiev 88CMs.
However, I trust the 88CM to get the image and my income depends on it.
That is not an exaggeration.

Just because the cameras are cheap to buy does not mean care and
maintaining is less costly, less needed nor less important.

Dale
...



From kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 
From: "Dale Dickerson" dale.dickerson@verizon.net
Subject: "Hartblei" is actually...



-----Original Message-----

GP wrote:
On the Kiev Report Delphi Forum, there has been some debate as to
who/what/where "Hartblei" is/was/might be in the future, since it seems
to have undergone a great deal of transition over the years. From the
evidence of this K60, is it possible that the current incarnation of
"Hartblei" is actually NOBODY?

---------------------------------------------

One of the reason I do not visit the Kiev Forum much is that kind of
debate gets old. In a Kiev Forum posting from the fall, it spells out
the relationship between Hartblei, Arsenal, and Kiev Camera. It also
talks about what they are (were) planning. Harblei is somebody. That
somebody is Mr. Naumeno who is focusing on making lenses. The Harblei
staff who rebuild cameras are now being paid by Kiev Camera and now are
in office space next to the repair shop of Arsenal. I have copied the
letter in full below.

Dale
----------------------------------------------------------

http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=kievreport&msg;=5714.15&search;=y

Message # 5714.15 under General - GOOD NEWS from ARAX 9/25/2003 11:16
pm 5714.15 in reply to 5714.7

Hello,

I would like to share some news from Arsenal factory, Hartblei Company
and Kievcamera.

During my last trip to Ukraine (July -V September), I personally worked
on daily basis with Mr. Serov, who is a head of designing department at
Arsenal and Mr. Naumenko, who is the owner of the Hartblei company.

As a result of these meetings, we approved the new design for the
camera, Kiev 88c. The new camera will be based on Kiev88cm design
without interchangeable backs. The camera most likely will be produced
instead of Kiev 60TTL unless we will have capacity and market to sell
both Kiev 60 and Kiev 88c. The price of this new camera will be around
$399 retail for complete TTL kit.

Together with Mr. Naumeno we decided to relocate his technicians who are
currently working on Kiev88cm cameras and his entire line of Hartblei
cameras to the new office next to the repair shop of Arsenal factory.
This team of technicians is working for KievCamera, Inc right now. This
change gave Mr. Naumenko more time to focus on making only new lenses.
In the next 6 months, we will have almost full line of lenses including:

MC3.5/30mm made by Arsenal
MC3.5/45mm new designed made by Hartblei
MC4.5/55mm shift Arsenal
MC 3.5/65 mm, Hartblei
MC 3.5/65mm shift Hartblei
MC 2.8/80mm Hartblei
MC 2.8/120mm Hartblei
MC 2.8/150mm Hartblei
MC 3.5-5.6/250 mm both Arsenal
MC 8/500mm Lutkarina-Hartblei
MC 5.6/500mm Lutkarino- Hartblei
1.4 teleconverters Hartblei/Arsenal
2 teleconverter hartblei/ Arsenal

In regards of Kiev88cm cameras, the first 30 Kiev 88 CM with MLU will be
ready for sale in about 30-45 days. The Arsenal factory redesigned Kiev
88CM body (after 2 years and numerous letters which I wrote to them).
This change will allow to put MLU version in production. We will produce
around 15 cameras a month in addition to the current reg. Kiev 88 CM.
Arsenal already had redesigned NT backs itself and it is much better
than it was even a 1 month ago. In addition, we started to make Hartblei
1006 version of Kiev 88cm -V Hsselblad compatible (about 15 bodies a
month) and 30-40 NT 6x6 film back specificly design for Hasselblad
cameras. Finally, I hope by the next Photokina (September 2004) we will
have our Digital back with about 8-10M for the price under $3.5k

Thank you for your attention and Have a Nice Picture Y

Sincerely yours
Mike Fourman
---


From kiev88 mailing list:
Date: Wed, 5 May 2004 
From: "Jay Y Javier" nikitakat@edsamail.com.ph
Subject: Re: Re: a few of the ways people damage a working Kiev

Stephe

I could sympathise with your comments, though I find them a bit too strong:-)

>
>Who did you hear this from, someone selling the
>cameras and can't believe how many get returned so
>they have to "make up" the reason the camera is broken
>so they don't have to warranty it? That sound oh so
>familiar! I had that crap pulled on my by kievcamera
>so he didn't have to swap out the third DOA camera he
>sent me..

Kiev USA did worse. I placed an order years ago for a Kiev 88CB (a Kiev 88 which can accept P6 lenses, 
before there was a CM. How it fares with K6 glass, I don't really know since I've only mounted a P6 Biometar 
and K60 lenses on it.). When it arrived here, many thousand miles from K/USA, it worked for a couple of rolls 
and died. I've told this story before, here and at the Delphi forum. Got a number of sympathetic replies, but what 
was surprising that there were replies which were in defence of K/USA. These people are probably their "friends", 
and influential people (photo magazine editors?), and people living near enough to sue K/USA.

What was even surprising is that some of these K/USA apologists even tried to convince me that the camera got 
damaged through my own fault. The K88CB wasn't exactly the first K88 I handled when I got it, and I was familiar 
enough with Russian cameras to handle them correctly. The K88 which K/USA sent really had serious issues to 
begin with. Its cloth shutters had pinholes, and it was badly made.

The only fault I could think of on my part was believing in the ads which K/USA put out claiming that they check and 
remake the cameras before selling them. The $1000+ K88CB I got was no different from the "ordinary" 50%-50%
 (odds of working vs dud) K88 sold for about a quarter of the price. There was apparently nothing significantly 
different (as far as handling feel is concerned) about their outrageously priced cameras. 

I sent the camera back to Kiev/USA. Instead of replacing it (as they should have, given that the camera was 
defective to begin with), they *grudgingly* repaired it. To add insult to injury, they even claimed that the 
camera was tampered as evidenced by broken "seals". As if there were any. And to make things worse, 
they cancelled the camera's warranty and sealed the winding crank in so well that the camera could no 
longer be repaired by anyone else without destroying the crank. 

The camera is now working well, thanks to a friend (who has now moved to the USA), who made it work 
better than K/USA themselves.

>>
>> Set the camera on the picnic table without the
>> shutter cocked, no lens
>> cap on the lens and lens facing the sun, sun light
>> burns holes (maybe
>> burns a line through is better wording) in shutter
>> then the film. Person
>> uses the camera, shutter rips and the melted film
>> rips in the back
>> leaving small pieces of film in camera gears
>> 
>
>A great reason to not buy a CM with it's cloth
>shutter! Thanx for explaining to people why they
>shouldn't buy one of these Dale.
>

It would likely take more than that to cook the shutter or the film. The lens has to be pointed to the sun, and 
*focused* on the shutter (it normally is focused on a plane farther back) and aimed so that the sun is 
constantly on the point to be burned, for burning to occur. I've taken Kievs out in the sun, in the heat 
(here in the tropics, average temps are at 28 to 32 C), for extended times. So far, I haven't had any 
camera fried yet. 

The metal foil shutters are as easy- or even easier- to rip than cloth. We've managed to rip a couple of shutters 
already. It took no more than monkeying with the shutter laths to tear them.
That's why my Kiev 88 have cloth shutters- installed by Gabby Buenagua (also of this list, and now in the US)- 
to replace the original torn steel foil. And the cloth used for the shutters were home-made.

Jay


Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 
From: Ken Smith smithart@bossig.com
Subject: Re: [Russiancamera] Re: Salyut-S photos
To: Russiancamera-user russiancamera-user@beststuff.com

Author: Bob Shell wrote:
Date: 05-04-04 16:11

Actually, that brings something up. I have only one new style
magazine, that came with the 88cm, and it stopped working after two
rolls. Anyone know if there is any info or a diagram of this new
magazine on the net somewhere?

Bob

Hi Bob,

I came across this...not sure it is what you need, but is info nonetheless:

http://www.yt.cache.waseda.ac.jp/K88/adjust.html

I just took the big leap, and bought a Salyut-C from Alex photo. I've bought
a few things from Alex and figured if you want to take the gamble with a
camera like a Salyut or Kiev88 genre, then it's best to find the most
trusted dealer to buy from. Alex agreed to shoot a roll of film thru one of
the backs. There was some frame overlap, but we determined it was probably
due to improper loading, since Alex said he had to do it several times, and
was unfamiliar with the Salyut. I've read that improper loading is the #1
reason for film advance problems.

Anyway, tho I have a Pentax67 system, and a Pentax645 that uses the 67
lenses, I'm still intrigued, or challenged, by the Salyut-C. I bought it
with the Vega-12V 90mm lense, two backs, and waist level finder. And I added
a Mir-38V 65mm lense, also from Alex. Should be here in a week.

best,
Ken
http://www.kensmithart.com



From Kiev88 Mailing list:
Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 
From: "flexaret@sprynet.com" flexaret@sprynet.com
Subject: Re: Hartblei is actually...



Re- Kiev88 and Hartblei

Stephe-

Apparently this issue of who is Hartblei and how do they rebuild Kiev
88 cameras, is a hot potato.

There are supposedly about a dozen technicians in Kiev who have
worked for Serguey Naumenko who know how to rebuild the
standard Kiev 88 cameras into the models with P6 mounts, MLU and
such and they work for all involved parties, who sell such upgraded
cameras. But, Mr. Naumenko and his personal quality control is what
distinguishes the best made such models, that does not mean that
there are not well made upgrades without his supervision or defective
cameras which he has QC checked.

What you have said is true the real "Hartblei" trademark has been used
all over the place with its real value having been eroded. It takes a full
week for one technician to upgrade a standard Kiev 88 into a
real Hartblei 1006 taking Hasselblad backs and with P6 twist and lock
mount. It probably takes less than a day for a technician to upgrade
a Kiev 88CM.

It is important to realize that all of these "technicians" probably were
former Arsenal employees now working free lance. Some of the better
current Arsenal employees have now been working at improving the
new Kiev 88CM cameras at the original factory, so that less later
upgrading by Hartblei or anybody else should be required, which is
as it should be. If Serguey Naumenko (personally) is no longer
upgrading/building cameras that does not mean that his best (former)
technicians will not make good upgraded Kiev 88 cameras, but it does
mean that the brand quality that Hartblei might have once meant
regarding cameras may be of questionable value from this point on.

- Sam Sherman


Original Message:
-----------------
From: Stephe Thayer kievgurl@yahoo.com
Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 
To: Kiev88@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Kiev88] "Hartblei" is actually...



The question arises because there are many cameras
claimed to be "modified by Hartblei" which have
serious QC issues and the "real" Hartblei cameras
don't seem to have any of these issues so something is
up. Of course saying a camera has been gone over by
"Hartblei" is going to increase its value and people
will assume it's going to be a better camera. Then
there is the problem with the Hartblei.com website not
being owned by Hartblei and they had a falling out
with Mr Naumenko so who was building the "Hartblei"
cameras they sold? I was told from a reliable source
(where I got both my Hartblei cameras, from someone
who personally knows Mr Naumenko) that they weren't
going to be doing any cameras anymore, just lenses yet
Hartblei "rebuilts" are still being sold?

I suppose by questioning -who the real hartblei is-,
is a nice way of questioning who really is modifying
(all of their cameras?) sold as being "hartblei"
modified cameras. I know I was told the K-60('s) I
bought (and swaped out bad ones) were reworked by
Hartblei. I also own a "real" 1006C and a 1006M
hartblei and I'm sure that other K-60 had never been
anywhere near the shop that did my other cameras.

Just because Mike posts something on his website/a
webforum doesn't make it a fact, anymore than the
Hartblei website is selling "Hartblei" cameras that
are really Hartblei cameras. Given the way FSU
countries treat trademarks etc I don't trust any of
them not to just copy a name to increase their
profits.

Stephe

> -----Original Message-----
>
> GP wrote:
> On the Kiev Report Delphi Forum, there has been some debate as to
> who/what/where "Hartblei" is/was/might be in the future, since it seems
> to have undergone a great deal of transition over the years. From the
> evidence of this K60, is it possible that the
> current incarnation of  "Hartblei" is actually NOBODY?
>
-----
> One of the reason I do not visit the Kiev Forum much is that kind of
> debate gets old. In a Kiev Forum posting from the fall, it spells out
> the relationship between Hartblei, Arsenal, and Kiev Camera. It also
> talks about what they are (were) planning. Harblei is somebody. That
> somebody is Mr. Naumeno who is focusing on making lenses. The Harblei
> staff who rebuild cameras are now being paid by Kiev Camera and now are
> in office space next to the repair shop of Arsenal. I have copied the letter in full below.
>
> Dale
>
http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=kievreport&msg;=5714.15&search;=y
>
> Message # 5714.15 under General - GOOD NEWS from ARAX 9/25/2003 
>
> Hello,
>
> I would like to share some news from Arsenal
> factory, Hartblei Company and Kievcamera.
>
> During my last trip to Ukraine (July -V September), I personally worked
> on daily basis with Mr. Serov, who is a head of designing department at
> Arsenal and Mr. Naumenko, who is the owner of the Hartblei company.
>
> As a result of these meetings, we approved the new design for the
> camera, Kiev 88c. The new camera will be based on Kiev88cm design
> without interchangeable backs. The camera most likely will be produced
> instead of Kiev 60TTL unless we will have capacity and market to sell
> both Kiev 60 and Kiev 88c. The price of this new
> camera will be around $399 retail for complete TTL kit.
> Together with Mr. Naumeno we decided to relocate his technicians who are
> currently working on Kiev88cm cameras and his entire line of Hartblei
> cameras to the new office next to the repair shop of Arsenal factory.
> This team of technicians is working for KievCamera, Inc right now. This
> change gave Mr. Naumenko more time to focus on making only new lenses.
> In the next 6 months, we will have almost full line of lenses including:
>
> MC3.5/30mm made by Arsenal
> MC3.5/45mm new designed made by Hartblei
> MC4.5/55mm shift Arsenal
> MC 3.5/65 mm, Hartblei
> MC 3.5/65mm shift Hartblei
> MC 2.8/80mm Hartblei
> MC 2.8/120mm Hartblei
> MC 2.8/150mm Hartblei
> MC 3.5-5.6/250 mm both Arsenal
> MC 8/500mm Lutkarina-Hartblei
> MC 5.6/500mm Lutkarino- Hartblei
> 1.4 teleconverters Hartblei/Arsenal
> 2 teleconverter hartblei/ Arsenal
>
> In regards of Kiev88cm cameras, the first 30 Kiev 88 CM with MLU will be
> ready for sale in about 30-45 days. The Arsenal factory redesigned Kiev
> 88CM body (after 2 years and numerous letters which I wrote to them).
> This change will allow to put MLU version in production. We will produce
> around 15 cameras a month in addition to the current reg. Kiev 88 CM.
> Arsenal already had redesigned NT backs itself and it is much better
> than it was even a 1 month ago. In addition, we started to make Hartblei
> 1006 version of Kiev 88cm -V Hsselblad compatible (about 15 bodies a
> month) and 30-40 NT 6x6 film back specificly design for Hasselblad
> cameras. Finally, I hope by the next Photokina (September 2004) we will
> have our Digital back with about 8-10M for the price under $3.5k
>
> Thank you for your attention and Have a Nice Picture Y
>
> Sincerely yours
>
> Mike Fourman






End of Page