 Kiev 88 SLR Photo thanks to Yuri Boguslavsky |
 Bronica S2A - Photos courtesy of Bob - brpr1@alltel.net |
|
Kiev 88 SLR Photo thanks to Yuri Boguslavsky |
Bronica S2A - Photos courtesy of Bob - brpr1@alltel.net |
There is no comparison. The Bronica is superior in so many ways. It is
1960s technology while the Kiev is 1940s technology. Even though the
Bronica requires a lot of winding per frame, it has high gear reduction
working for it. Winding a lot with low torque produces high torque to
wind the shutter and transport the film.
The Kiev 88 suffers from 1940s Hasselblad design. The one revolution wind
is high torque to move the shutter and wind the film. Too much strain is
put on everything in this design. It just has to fail.
Compounding this is the poor quality control on key parts in the Kiev 88.
Even if one has a good camera which winds and works fine with the back
off, the winding of the gears in the poorly made backs put great further
strain on the Kiev 88 winding system.
I have not seen the new Kiev 88 NT (new technolgy) backs - but perhaps
they have solved some of this.
To wind a Kiev 88 with film in it is a great strain. To wind a Bronica S2A
with film in it is as easy as winding the camera with no film in it.
Regardless of the Hartblei/Kiev models and cloth curtains and various
upgrades, the basic design of the Kiev 88 requires that it will fail - the
only question is when.
The mating of the winding key on the film insert into the Kiev 88 backs is
imprecise in many of them. People just exchange or discard bad backs until
they get ones which work.
I am amazed to consider that some users will pay $500 to $1000 for a Kiev
88 outfit, with snake skin covering or not. I think if anybody wants to
experiment with this system they should pay the least amount of money
possible. Then when the camera fails it can still be sold off cheaply for
parts or repair.
One further amazing bit of information is that this over 50 year old
design is still being made.
Arsenal factory must have lost all of their great designers to old age or
party purges. The Kiev 5 upgrade to the basic Contax II (35MM Kiev) body,
was well designed and well produced. The designer of the original Kiev 6C
(first model of Kiev 60) came up with a unique model bearing no similarity
to the Pentacon 6 other than its lens mount. Inside the Kiev 6C is well
designed with strong steel gears and generally well made. From that
heritage, the fact that nobody at that plant could evolve the same old
Saluit/Kiev 88 into a really better camera is tragic.
People still buy the Kiev 88 because it looks like a Hasselblad, but
beauty is only skin deep. There has to be a better use for many of those
really good Ukranian lenses.
Some Bronicas have leatherette peeling and needing some new glue.
The Kiev mirror only returns on winding.
The Kiev must be wound carefully in one turn clockwise. The shutter speeds
must be set only AFTER winding and while turning the shutter speed/wind
knob in the direction of the arrow.
The Bronica shutter speed knob can be set before or after winding in any
direction.
The Bronica back is made to a higher degree of precision as is the insert.
The Bronica is fast and simple to load.
The Bronica backs also take 220 film for 24 exposures, while Kiev backs
are limited to 12 exposure 120 film.
The Bronica removable focusing mount has three mounts in
one (57MM screw and large and small bayonet) and is far superior to either
Kiev mount and much more versatile.
My experience shows no flash ghost images with either. A leaf shutter
105MM Nikkor lens is available for Bronica with full flash sync to 1/500th
second.
The Salyut-C takes all of the Kiev 88 backs, lenses, finders and other
accessories. It also comes with an excellent and really sharp 90MM f2.8
Vega lens, which is close focusing and does not have the light leaks the
later 80MM f2.8 lenses can have. A nice kit is the Salyut-C with 90MM lens
and the 150MM f2.8 lens (similar to Zeiss 180MM f2.8 Sonnar). Later adding
to this the 65MM wideangle and then the 30MM wideangle/fisheye and one has
quite a kit.
Both the Kiev 88 types and Bronica S2A types are capable of sharp
professional results. In the case of the Kiev it is not wise to pay too
much for the camera as a low cost camera will not be a budget drain when
it needs repair or it is sold for parts and a new body is purchased.
CAVEAT - Re- KIEV 88:
With Ukranian/Russian photo equipment it has been said that even new
equipment can look used.... very true.
Kiev USA (Saul Kaminsky) says in his ads that buying this equipment can be
like playing Russian Roulette... very true.
For someone like myself who has a lot of good, working equipment, I really
don't need Kiev 88 cameras and their potential problems. However, as
something inexpensive to experiment with, that is something else.
It is possible to play Russian Roulette and get a beautiful, well made
Kiev 88 or Salyut-C, that looks and works fine. Or get a disaster with no
guarantee, or a camera which can be returned and returned and returned
until you get one that works properly. Or, if someone is not loaded with
medium format equipment and has some extra cash, he is well advised to pay
more and get a good camera and accessories from Kiev USA, the frustration
level should be lower.
Owning a run of the mill Kiev 88, one needs to be handy with small repairs
and know a Kiev 88 repairman well.
Seeking a low budget working Kiev 88, I bought a Salyut-C, which is an
earlier but similar model, claimed to be of better quality as a hand-made
camera which works.
I have had problems with the two backs - returned one and repaired the
other.
The waist level finder (original style) was of poor quality with the latch
button broken off. I replaced it and repaired the finder. It still did
not open well and has a small magnifier which covers only the center of
the image.
So - I called Gennady Kaplan of Russian Plaza in Los Angeles and purchased
a new model Kiev 88 waist level finder (looks like Hasselblad finder) for
$29 including shipping.
This new finder needed some adjustment as the latches for the finder
opening and the magnifier had to be bent slightly to work properly. That
done, this new finder is an improvement and features a higher power
magnifier which almost covers the whole viewing screen to the edges.
Certainly worth anybody's $29 to upgrade this part. Note- the base that
mounts on the camera is rough and I advise rubbing the area that slides
onto the camera with some wax or lubricant. Failure to do this may leave
you with a finder locked onto the camera, which will be hard to remove
unless you pry it off and risk damaging it.
Back to the camera- with a magnifier - looking into the camera's lens
mount, one can see beneath the camera box floor some of the shutter speed
gearing. Also noting that some of these parts have a rough hand filed look
- but they work.
The camera's 1/30th (sync) speed does not always work as the curtains
don't fully release - unless, at this speed setting you are sure to wind
the wind knob hard and fully. The other speeds work fine. I generally use
the camera outdoors at 1/125th and 1/250th, so that works fine.
My advice - get a working Kiev 88 or Salyut-C as cheap as possible - or
buy a good camera with a full guarantee and the possibility of later
service available.
I think it is possible to find a good camera out there from an individual
or a dealer, and inexpensively, which will work.
The odds are just against it. Look at the number of used and broken as-is
Kiev 88 cameras which are offered for sale on Ebay. I would avoid these -
their prices go to $150 - close to a working camera and the amount of
internal damage is unknown and could be extensive. On the other hand if
one is willing to spend the money and wants this equipment, I think the
end user will be happier with what he buys from Kiev USA.
I was quite involved with Kiev cameras in the late 1980s and early 1990s
with a partner who was the major supplier of these cameras and their
accessories in the US at that time. We had many Kiev 88 cameras which
needed repair and some roughly made finders and lenses. Some could be
fixed, some not.
In 1988 I was quite impressed with the then new Kiev 60 (I already had a
Kiev 6C) and I still have one of my sample cameras from that era which was
generally excellent and I still use it. We had little success in the US
at that time as nobody wanted that camera, no matter how good I said it
was. I did make an improvement to the mirror mechanism which greatly
helped that camera. Roskam in the Netherlands claims a similar
improvement.
One problem still not solved is the light leak in the 80mm normal Arsat
lens for both the Kiev 60 and Kiev 88 etc. At close focusing there is a
light leak through the stopdown lever slot. The factory should solve that
and give me a new lens for identifying the problem, along with others I
could write about.
In the late 1980s I evaluated both the Kiev 60 and Kiev 88 and made
suggestions to the factory to improve both of them. My suggestions, at
that time, for the Kiev 88 included replacing the the metal curtain
shutter with a regular cloth curtain shutter. My reasons were that the
metal shutter was easily pinholed from a slight finger poke and also those
metal curtains put too much strain on the wind gears and timing gears due
to their stiffness and making those right corner turns.
I also suggested that the old Hasselblad 1600/1000 mount be changed to the
Pentacon 6 mount, so that the Pentacon lenses could be used and the
factory would only have to make one line of lenses for the 60 and 88.
Otherwise the old Kiev 88/Salyut mount was okay and in some ways better
than the Pentacon 6 mount. Once a lens is stuck in the Pentacon 6 type
mount, it is hard to get it off. The Kiev 88 "B' mount allows holding the
lens and turning it to easily remove it, although some lenses wobble on
the camera and are not on as tight as Pentacon 6 mount lenses.
I also suggested changing the back to something more like the backs on
Bronica S2A as the old Kiev 88 backs were sometimes poorly made, hard to
load and the inserts did not always latch into the shells.
It is with that background that I opened the carton and examined a Kiev
88CM for the first time. There is no doubt that the Arsenal factory was
influenced by opinions of people who had the same ideas as I had years ago
and the work of Hartblei in improving these cameras. I would guess the
Hartblei cameras are more polished than the Kiev models, which are still a
little rough around the edges. However the Kiev 88CM is on the surface a
world class difference and improvement on the old Kiev 88. I am glad that
this model does not have the mirror lock up, a feature I never use and
which could add potential problems to this camera.
I intend to take some photos with the camera tomorrow, but examining it
thoroughly now, here is what I noted:
1- The camera is much better made than the average Kiev 88. It winds
better and the shutter releases smoother and winds smoothly with film in
the greatly improved new "NT" back which uses starter marks and opens from
the back like Bronica and other cameras. The back is a major improvement.
The new waist level finder is a major improvement over the old ones which
were poorly made. Inside the camera it is still a little rough, but has
black flocking to eliminate flare and new internal metal covering to cover
up the shutter gears which were exposed in the old models and easily able
to get dirt and grit in.
2- I checked the shutter speeds and they were accurate and the electronic
flash sync perfect at 1/30th second. A small Vivitar 1900 flash fits
nicely in the hot shoe and is a perfect combination with this camera.
3- The only problems I encountered were with the new Pentacon 6 mount.
Since the Kiev 88CM body is longer from the film plane than a Kiev 60 or
Pentacon 6, the factory had to recess the mount deeper into the camera.
This works and doesn't work. The metal tab you grip on to lock the lens on
can get stuck and you can risk damage to the camera if this happens by
rough handling to take the lens off. I used steady pressure with two
thumbs and unlocked this mount without problems. The
problem with the
mount is the problem with the Kiev 6C and Kiev 60 mounts- they are not
exactly the same as Pentacon 6. They look the same, but are not the same.
Some lenses will work on Pentacon and Kiev cameras, some will not.
This is
a problem for the factory to solve. Assuming my new camera works over the
long haul, I will not worry about this as most of my Pentacon 6 lenses and
such do work on the Kiev 88CM.
Note the following:
-----------------------------------------
Pentacon 6 and Kiev 60/6C lenses and such which DO WORK on Kiev 88CM:
----------------------------------------
Pentacon 6 and Kiev 60/6C Lenses and such which DO NOT WORK on Kiev 88CM
(from Kiev 6C)
-----------------------------------------
Note on Kiev 88CM stopdown mechanism:
Some automatic lenses which fit properly on the Kiev 88CM did not stop
down at all or fully on the camera I have. The factory tech manual
explains adding a couple of small washers to the screw which stops down
the lens to extend it further outwards. This did allow the following
lenses to work properly which did not originally - one 80mm Zeiss Biometar
(two still did not stop down), 180mm Zeiss Sonnar, Jupiter 250mm f3.5.
The pin on the 80mm normal Arsat lens for the Kiev 88CM is longer than the
shorter pins for stopdown on the Zeiss Jena lenses - some will work
properly - some will not. As I have the 80mm normal Arsat lens, I don't
need to use two of my 80mm Biometer lenses on the Kiev 88CM, so their not
working on this camera, while they work properly on Praktisix II and
Praktica 66, is no great loss to me.
---------------------------------------
4- Further comments in general.
The neck strap which comes with the camera is a piece of junk and I would
hate to think of my camera crashing to the cement sidewalk because of it.
I am not sure if a good Hasselblad strap will fit properly, but I am going
to buy one. The English Instruction Book needs to be re-written (maybe
someone will ask me to do it). Much of the information (probably as
translated from Russian) is Unclear and Incomplete. The instructions also
say this camera is for "Amateur" use. Does that imply it will not hold up
under a daily grind with professional use? When I am done testing this
camera, I will know as much as most or more. Somewhere something was said
or written about 220 film - (is there a special 220 back?) The counter
only goes to 12 exposures. The new backs will probably work with 220 film
and I will test that, but the counter needs to run to 24 exposures and
have a release at 12 to allow free winding like Bronica S2A. The new back
does not have free winding at the start and finish of the roll, so one is
always winding and releasing the shutter needlessly, unless you wind off
the film at the end with the back's folding wind knob.The finder viewing
screen is nice and bright and sharp - well done.
I have an important accessory which works well on the Kiev 88CM. This
should come with every camera. It is the Kiev 88 Ground Glass back
attachment, which replaces the film back and allows one to focus and view
through the back of the camera. It also protects the shutter curtains when
one is testing the shutter and does not want the back gearing to turn the
counter without film. It is also important to warn the user to always
wind the shutter when outside or keep a lens cap on between pictures.
Otherwise the sun may burn a hole in the cloth shutter curtains. I should
know, I burned a hole in a Pentacon 6 shutter cloth curtain using my 180mm
Sonnar lens in the California desert.
I would guess my major disappointment is the inability of the Kiev 88CM to
take all of my Pentacon 6 lenses and such. But, the same is true of my
Kiev 6C and Kiev 60 and I got over my small displeasure with these cameras
and learned to use and enjoy them.
On first examination, although there is some rough finishing inside, I
would say I generally like this camera. It still suffers from the old Kiev
88 pin and hole speed setting knob and I would still advise care in
winding and setting the speeds only after the shutter is wound as
all of
the old Salyut/Kiev models are supposed to work. I would also advise using
the crank with care, as rough handling of similar wind cranks on Bronica
S2 models led to stripped wind gears.
The camera comes with two rolls of Black and White film negatives testing
each of the two NT backs on an optical test chart. There is no explanation
who did this or what shutter speeds and lens openings were used. This is a
nice idea, but there should be some information supplied about this
testing process.
Using the Camera:
I later tested the camera with three rolls of 120 film. Two rolls of
Ilford XP-2 and one roll of Kodak Gold 100 color negative film. The Ilford
film is superb for testing lens sharpness.
I used the camera with one NT back, waist level finder (I don't have the
meter prism), the normal 80mm Arsat f2.8 multi-coated lens and an old
150mm f3.5 Kilfitt "basic" lens in Pentacon 6 adapter. Most of my
pictures from closeup to infinity came out very sharp with both lenses,
indicating good camera alignment and good lenses, plus flat film plane.
The shots with the 80mm lens were contrasty and crisp with no evidence of
any flare in the camera body. The Vivitar 1900 small flash worked very
well on the flash shoe.
The only problem shots were made when I was seeking great depth of field
and scale focused the normal 80mm Arsat lens using the depth of field
chart to use the lens at f22. I got weird areas of the image in and out of
focus. I will avoid this method in the future and only focus on the finder
screen. I also think that f8 to f11 are probably the critical apertures
for this lens and sharpness may deteriorate from f16 to f22. I will test
these openings again.
The back loads well and easily much like a Bronica S2A back.
Next I will be using the camera with the 30mm Zodiak wideangle/fisheye and
some of the Zeiss Jena lenses.
Overall I am quite impressed with this camera as a big improvement on the
Kiev 88 series. Hats off to the Arsenal/Kiev factory for meeting the
demand of critical photographers with much asked for improvements on a
classic design.
I used a pin point injection oiler. With the lens removed I noted a series
of holes or indentations between the locking ring and the inner threaded
surface. Being careful to avoid damaging the camera by flooding oil into
it, I put one small drop only into each of these indentations. I then
worked the locking ring back and forth to spread the oil around the
threads of the locking ring.
This lubrication to the ring prevented it from locking on too tight around
a lens mount. I further caution locking a lens on "too" tight, but even so
this added lubrication cuts down friction on the ring and allows it to
open and a lens to be removed.
CAMERA ON SALE- I purchased my Kiev 88CM from-
Mikhail Fourman KIEV CAMERA 2907 Aspen Woods Entry Atlanta, GA 30360 phone - 770-409-0026 website- http://www.kievcamera.com
He sells the camera New in very reasonable packages with or without TTL
Prism finder - and with two NT (new Technology) Backs (Excellent!), waist
level finder, 80MM f2.8 Multicoated Arsat Lens and Lens Hood, Neckstrap
and English Instructions in original factory box. Then he over-packs this
with lots of insulation in a large carton. For me it was my decision to
buy the package without prism as it was the lowest cost and I can buy the
prism and other accessories from him later. He is a reliable dealer and
the kit comes with a 180 day guaranty.
The more chance I have to study and use this camera the more I am finding
out about it.
First of all, I do like the camera and sincerely hope it will hold up and
continue to work properly without any of the problems which have plagued
the earlier Kiev 88 types with the metal shutters.
As I previously mentioned, the shutter speeds are quite accurate. One
problem came up with the focusing, that I caused. Some of my photos were
not as sharp as they should have been and this led me to check the
alignment of the viewing screen as compared to what the film is seeing.
I used the excellent Kiev 88 Ground Glass back attachment and compared
this image to what was on the viewing screen.
I also used the new NT Back - removed the film insert and then placed my
ground glass focusing attachment on the film rails (a 6x6cm piece of
ground glass with a loupe glued to it). All tests were sharp and the same
compared to the finder screen. Proving this camera was well aligned at the
factory.
One of the two backs had a minor glitch - one of the rollers, at the
bottom of the film frame, was out of its socket on one side. A simple
matter of unscrewing the roller clip, inserting the end of the roller and
screwing it back into the frame. Everything is back in action.
THE BIG PROBLEM: While I had added some washers to the stopdown probe in
the camera body, extending it out to help better stop down Carl Zeiss Jena
lenses - this was a mistake. I had to remove all of the added washers,
which were contributing to pushing the mirror out of alignment and
affecting focusing.
What was happening was - the Zeiss Jena lenses have a firm stopdown spring
and extend further back into the camera than the Kiev lenses. This causes
pressure on the stopdown probe in the camera - pushing it back into the
body. As this probe is directly connected to the mirror, the mirror is
pushed out of alignment by the Zeiss Jena lenses and focusing them
according to what the mirror sends to the finder screen will cause out of
focus images. Even after removing the added washers to the stopdown
probe, the Zeiss Jena lenses still pushed the mirror out if its true 45
degree alignment and so they cannot be used with this camera. Or at least
my 180MM f2.8 Sonnar and 120MM f2.8 Biometar cannot be used with my Kiev
88CM.
My Kilfitt Pentacon 6 adapter works okay - so my present 150MM f3.5 and
300MM f5.6 and 90MM f2.8 Macro are all okay in addition to my adapted
500MM f8 Japanese tele lens which fits the Kilfitt mount. The 30MM f3.5
Zodiak (1990 pre- Arsat 30MM) wideangle works and stops down fine.
What will and will not work on this camera will remain a matter of
experimentation. Some later versions of Carl Zeiss Jena lenses and lenses
by Schneider for the modern Exakta 66 may also work. The camera owner
will have to conduct his own tests.
Neckstrap - I have criticised the original neckstrap that comes with the
camera as not too great. I also have noted that the neckstrap lugs on the
Kiev 88CM are smaller than the lugs on the Salyut-C and possibly some of
the earlier Kiev 88 cameras. Good Hasselblad straps may or may not work on
this camera. More testing needed.
After months of using this camera I can speak to its merits and faults. It is a generally well made camera, but not properly lubricated. At the
start of using it I had some uneven exposure of the shutter image across the film plane.
This was caused by under-lubrication of the two main shutter gears. In the average Kiev 88 or
Salyut-C camera when you remove the lens you can see the two main stacked shutter gears at
the left bottom of the camera chamber, when looking into the camera chamber from the front.
With the Kiev 88CM you cannot see these as a small metal baffle covers this opening to the bottom of the chamber.
I removed this baffle by unscrewing the center screw holding it down and prying out the baffle with a small screwdriver.
Then I replaced the screw which also holds the bottom plate and have stored this baffle. This way I can always look in
and see the gears in action. Since countless standard Kiev 88 and Salyut-C cameras do not have this cover -
I think it best to remove it as it permits better circulation of air in a mechanism that uses a propeller type
governor system to regulate slow shutter speeds and curtain travel.
Looking in from the front, on the left you see two large gears stacked one on top of the other. I add one tiny pin point drop
of oil to the pivot in the center of the top gear. Then a second pin point drop of oil into the center of the sandwich
of the two gears. Then wind and release the shutter at least 50 times. The camera will now wind smoother and
the shutter curtains will travel more evenly. I have done this successfully on several Kiev 88 type cameras and
others who have taken this advice have also been successful with it.
Warning - do not over-lubricate or do anything else. Be careful - you can add problems to your camera.
Re- Lenses which work on the Kiev 88CM:
Originally I had problems with two Carl Zeiss Jena (early model lenses) - 180MM f2.8 Sonnar
and 120MM f2.8 Biometar - these would not stop down properly or pushed back on the stopdown screw in the
camera and pushed the mirror out of focus alignment. I removed the back mount on each lens and found that the
length of the stopdown pin on each was too long. There is an adjustment to screw this pin further into the lens
by loosening a tiny screw on the shaft. I adjusted each to go as far into the lens as possible and re-tightened the
screws and replaced the mounts. Both lenses now work perfectly on the Kiev 88CM, Kiev 60 and my old Pentacon 6.
All of the screw adjustments in these lenses, Pentacon 6, Kiev 60 and Kiev 88CM cameras proves that the factories
always had a problem with this and gave some adjustment leeway for the user. Kiev 88CM owners having this
problem with later model multicoated Carl Zeiss Jena lenses have told me that they could not find a similar
adjustment, although there actually may be another way of effecting such an adjustment.
Since the normal 80MM f2.8 Arsat is such a nice sharp lens, I have had no need to be able to use my 80MM f2.8
Biometar lenses on the Kiev 88CM. Since the stopdown lever interferes with the lens mounting on the camera,
some users have removed the stopdown lever on the lens. Aside from being able
to use a Zeiss lens on a Hassy-lookalike camera, I see no need to use such lenses on the Kiev 88CM.
The Kiev 60 2X multicoated converter works really well on the Kiev 88CM and produces excellent sharp images with
the 120MM Biometar and the 180MM Sonnar.
Not liking the poor quality Kiev neckstrap, I am using a quality leather Hasselblad neckstrap which fits just fine on the
Kiev 88CM. You can also buy an OPTECH PRO strap which works well.
Another small fix- The pin which holds the winding crank on the wind knob can sometimes loosen and start poking out
through one side. I removed the pin - put some clear nail polish on the ends of it and then replaced it. I also put a
drop of clear nail polish on the outside where the tips of this pin are visible. Clear nail polish is a great
product to dab on the threads of screws which loosen or put on the outside/heads of screws which loosen on
cameras and lenses. They will now stay in place.
I have gotten superb results with my Kiev 88CM with the older model 30MM f3.5 Zodiak fisheye lens.
I shot several rolls of Fujichrome at a local carnival and got some great shots of the Ferris Wheel, colorful
candy stands, rides and exhibits. That was the only lens I used at that fair - all shots came out excellent and
sharp. I only use the late model waist level finder and this is excellent for composing images with the 30MM
lens to either acccent the fisheye effect or minimize it.
There are many variants and upgrades of Kiev 88 cameras, some similar to the Kiev 88CM. These are cameras with
different wind cranks. (Mike Fourman sells an excellent Kiev 88 "crank" model with the Hartblei crank - similar to the
Kiev 88CM - on a camera with metal curtains and standard "B" screw mount.
These are year 2000 production and work well - and are a bargain.) Kiev USA sells some excellent Kiev 88
upgrades with various improved shutter curtains and better internal mechanism. Hartblei (through Mike
Fourman) has various upgrade models too. There are also some models which take "all" Pentacon 6 and Kiev 60 mount
lenses, as this mount is a "twist and lock" type - not the Kiev 88CM type with the locking ring mount.
I have heard that the Arsenal factory will make no new "B" screw mount lenses, only Pentacon 6 mount lenses for
Kiev 88CM and Kiev 60, which may come out in an improved model. I have also heard that Arsenal will discontinue
the standard Kiev 88 in favor of making only the Kiev 88CM. However, they have already produced enough parts
to assemble over 8000 more standard Kiev 88 cameras - and that will take a long time to sell.
As there are loads of old and new "B" screw mount lenses, users of this mount should have no problems
in getting said lenses. They will only not be able to get any new model lenses Arsenal may make. However,
Mike Fourman may be able to get Hartblei or others to adapt any Pentacon 6 mount lenses to the "B" screw mount
and the stopdown mechanism is in the same place and only the camera mount needs to be changed/adapted.
As a longtime Bronica user, I am also getting good use out of the Kiev 88 type cameras, as a medium
format alternative and something different to experument with. Bear in mind that the great 30MM f3.5 fisheye
lens (equal to the similar $7000 Hassy lens) alone is worth having a Kiev 88 body to use it on.
This camera has truly been a "work in progress". It has been improved
based on users comments in dealing with problems needing upgrading.
The camera's exclusive distributor - Mike Fourman of Kiev Camera of
Atlanta, Georgia (www.kievcamera.com), was reponsible for getting the
Arsenal factory in Kiev to re-design the standard Kiev 88 into the Kiev 88CM,
based on what Kiev users stated they wanted in a camera.
Based on various requests, service issues and such, Kiev Camera has engaged
Hartblei (now in Kiev, Ukraine), the builders of unique upgraded cameras and
lenses, based on original Arsenal/Kiev cameras and lenses, to work on the
Kiev 88CM models. So, coming Brand-New from the Arsenal factory, Hartblei
is now upgrading the new Kiev 88CM cameras to Kiev Camera's specifications
- which is producing an improved camera, as follows-
1- Re-Machined lens mount which accepts all Pentacon 6 - Carl Zeiss Jena
lenses. An area had also been machined away which permits the stopdown lever on some
of these lenses to fit in an open area, so that the lens will mount flush
with the camera with no interference from the stopdown lever.
2- New, improved cloth shutter curtains.
3- Camera stopdown lever which cannot be pushed back into the camera.
This eliminating the problem with lenses having stopdown buttons which pushed
back into the camera stopdown lever, which then pushed the mirror up and out
of proper focus position.
4- Some improvments to shutter mechanism and accuracy of shutter speeds.
5- Improved lubrication in cameras.
6- New model which accepts Hasseblad backs
7- New model in development to have mirror lockup/pre-release.
Additional research and improvements are ongoing.
I have solved a Zeiss Jena lens compatibility problem with this camera.
I have a 50MM f4 Flektogon, which would not have its diaphragm re-open to
full aperture on this camera for viewing/focusing, when it did so with
Pentacon 6 and Kiev 60. Removing the back mount of the lens - I found that-
very carefully (not to break it!) - very slightly bending up a metal arm,
which presses the lens stopdown mechanism in the lens body, completely cured the
problem. The lens now works correctly on Kiev 88CM plus Pentacon 6 and Kiev
60.
This Kiev 88CM is fast becoming a "cult classic" all around the world, by
users getting great results from it. What is further amazing is that most of the sales and communciation on this camera has been done through the internet.
The camera is generally sold by Kiev Camera through Ebay, its own website and
direct mail order. It is not advertised or written up in photography
magazines and is not sold in stores. Kiev Camera has been selling out
production of the camera, and until a greater quantity of cameras is
produced, expanded markets will have to wait.
The new "NT" back which fits this camera and standard Kiev 88 cameras, is
similar to a Bronica S2A back, has a back cover which opens, has a very flat
film plane, and only takes 120 film.
The Kiev 88CM has become one of my favorite cameras and I have taken some
outstanding photographs with it. Since Bronica focal plane shutter cameras
are no longer made, this is one of the few 6x6cm SLRs being produced with a
focal plane shutter, and interchangeable backs and permitting a wide range of
lenses of many types at low cost, and high quality, to be used on this camera. It is also important to note that the camera is very reasonably priced.
The Kiev 88CM is worth looking into for medium format users, wishing a new
and versatile camera in the Pentacon 6 lens mount system.
My research into the manufacture of pre-World War II Zeiss Contax models
II and III after 1945, with nameplates as "Contax" and the manufacture of
Soviet Contax copies as "Kiev", led to my writing several articles
entitled "The Great Contax Mystery" and published in the journals of The
American Photographic Historical Society and Zeiss Historica Society.
The gist of this research is that the secrecy which surrounded anything
connected to the former Soviet Union, even extends to to manufacturing of
cameras. We still do not know the entire story in its true form about the
Contax post 1945 cameras. So it also is with the manufacture of the Kiev
88 series.
We still do not know the truth about the origin and history of Kiev 88
cameras. Furthermore, we have little if any, factual information about the
manufacture of these cameras today. We learn about these cameras through
a maze of rumors, half-truths and opinions. So, instead of substituting my
opinions about this camera for hard, definite facts, I will present some
background as a series of questions:
1- Was the original version of the Kiev 88, also known as Salyut and Soyuz
(and other names) just a copy of the Hasselblad 1600 and 1000 models made
by the Arsenal factory in Kiev- or something else? The something else
could be a product evolved from the common German (Zeiss?) World War II
ancestor of both the Hasselblad and Kiev cameras, or so representatives of
the Arsenal factory used to claim. If true - where is this original model,
we have never seen it. Even if this fantastic tale could possibly be so,
the finish and trim was definitely copied from the early Hasselblad
models. Or.... could Hasselblad have sold or traded the tooling for the
early Hasselblad models legally to the USSR for them originally to make
cameras, under names other than Hasselblad, only for sale in the USSR, in
barter for some products or raw materials?
Nobody is speaking about this on either side, but it is strange that the
Soviet Hasselblad copies did not come out until Hasselblad discontinued
those focal plane shutter models in favor of their leaf shutter models.
And although the Kiev finders will fit on the Hassy, at the time of the
first introduction, only Waist Level finders were being made and Soviet
TTL prisms, representing a product to be sold to Hassy owners, was not
even an issue. If the early Salyut was a straight copy of the Hassy, then
Arsenal would not have cared what Hasselblad thought about what they were
doing. Instead, Arsenal made the backs for the Salyut and Kiev 88
purposely in such a way that they could not fit and work on a Hasselblad,
and possibly sold as a cheaper competing product.
2- In the past few years there has been a lot of activity involving Kiev
88 series cameras. Hartblei does some kind of mechanical and external
upgrade to these cameras and sells them in various models. Who is Hartblei
and where is he located? Some stories tell him to be a former factory
employee of Arsenal located in Ukraine, who still does contracted work for
the Arsenal factory, while he buys cameras and parts from them to make his
own models. Other stories tell him to be in the Czech Republic, where
Kalimex used to be, who sold his cameras and Kiev cameras. Now the
Hartblei website indicates this company to be in the Czech Republic... is
this just Kalimex under another name?
3- Today there are several variations of the standard Kiev 88 with the
metal shutter curtains. Some of these variations have the old Kiev 88 "B"
screw lens mount and some have the Pentacon 6/Kiev 60 mount. There is a
wide variation of three or four shutter release buttons, on the front, on
a 45 degree angle, at a 90 degree angle on the side. There are also
various models with mirror lockup, cloth curtains and the Kiev 60 mount in
several variations, as it is known that some of these mounts will not take
the German Carl Zeiss Jena lenses. There are also several variations of
the new wind crank instead of the old knob. Who has designed these
variations? Are they all designed by Hartblei? Are they all still made at
the Arsenal factory? Are the cameras all still made at the Arsenal
factory, or do they make the body and parts and somebody else is finishing
them?
The more new variations of the Kiev 88 that are being made and marketed
today, the more new unanswered questions are continuing to be added to a
mystery that is now over 40 years old.
The Kiev60 offers a different camera format and feel (being like an
overgrown 35mm SLR) to the Bronica S2/EC body/back design (which is
similar to the Kiev 88). You can also find some
outstanding earlier optics by Carl Zeiss Jena and Schneider in the
Pentacon P6 mount series for Kiev-60. Similarly, there are three (3!)
shift lenses in the Kiev wide angle lens offerings which will work at
infinity.
By contrast, the 30mm Nikkor
fisheye is very rare for Bronica S2/EC. The Bronica tilt/shift bellows
converts the Bronica lens line into a continuous infinity to closeup macro
lens line. That is why there are no Bronica macro lenses - on the bellows,
they
are all potentially macro lenses. But unfortunately, the bellows is
too tight at infinity position to permit using tilt/shifts with the
regular Bronica lenses. You can modify view camera and other lenses
easily to provide some shifts and tilts on the Bronica bellows. But if you
need wide angle shift lenses, then the Kiev lenses may be an attractive
option.
I have to agree with Sam Sherman that you can find some very reliable
older Bronica cameras, especially if you use our camera and lens testing tips. You should
plan on having the camera mirror foam replaced and screen alignment tested
if this hasn't been done recently on the Bronica body.
The overall reliability of the Bronica cameras and their cloth shutters is
remarkable given their age, especially if you find a camera with light
non-pro use. While the very earliest model Z and D cameras were often very
good, they are now collectibles and often pricey. Sam Sherman has written
praises of the Bronica C and later C2
series, which I also recommend for folks who don't need interchangeable
backs. The Bronica model S cameras are more likely to be found with
problems due to age and gearing design and repair problems. The Bronica S2
offerings deserve some serious consideration, if you can find a good model
whose gearing hasn't been abused. However, the usual recommendations are
to buy the S2A is you prefer all mechanical cameras or the Bronica ECTL
models if you want an electronic (battery dependent) camera with
auto-aperture exposure mode. Often lost between these models is the
Bronica EC and EC-II, with the steel gearing of the S2A and an
electronically controlled shutter (battery dependent), which may sell for
less than $400 - even from dealers.
The Bronica tilt/shift deluxe bellows II offers some unique strengths for
macro-photography. As we have already noted, the deluxe bellows converts
all of the Bronica standard lenses to work from infinity to
closeup, while providing some degree of tilt/shift controls in
macrophotography ranges. Except for the Mamiya 645 tilt/shift bellows (and
rare Kowa and Spiratone 6x6cm models), this Bronica deluxe bellows makes
it easy
to place the depth of field plane where you need it on your
macrophotography subject. The low cost Bronica extension tube set also
makes it easy to do macro work in the field cheaply, as well as adapt
lenses to the Bronica lens mount. Finally, the internal 57x1mm threaded
lens mount on the Bronica helical focusing mount makes it easy to use a
variety of 35mm macro lenses, enlarger lenses, and other optics such as
16mm movie camera lenses as bellows lenses on this system.
At the telephoto end, Sam Sherman's success in converting telephoto lenses
to the Bronica mount (see Lens Hacking
articles) takes advantage of the Bronica focal plane shutter design
and ease of adapting long telephoto lenses from 35mm and 6x6cm to Bronica
mounts. The ease of remounting long focus telephoto lenses to the Bronica
threaded lens mount makes it easy to add low cost short and longer
telephoto lenses from folders and TLRs and view cameras to your Bronica.
One nice option is to remount flash synched leaf shutter lenses from view
cameras (such as Schneider 150mm Xenar) on an extension tube mount. This
trick opens up many leaf shutter and fill-flash synch capabilities beyond
the standard 105mm Leaf Shutter Nikkor for Bronica. Since the Bronica
camera features a built-in focusing mechanism (the helical focusing unit),
you can use lens heads without any focusing mechanics from view cameras,
TLRs, folders, or other low cost sources. The combination of built in
focusing unit, focal plane shutter, and easy to use 57x1mm threaded lens
mount makes classic Bronica S2/EC model cameras the ideal camera for lens hacking.
At the wide angle end, Bronica cameras are restricted to their own Nikkor,
Zenzanon, and Komura wide angle lenses, which are fortunately very good
and surprisingly cheap. The 50mm Nikkor is particularly high scoring among
the best medium format wide angles, as is the 40mm Nikkor. Even the lower
cost Super Komura 45mm lenses are pretty good for a very wide angle optic.
However, the long lens registration distance (101.7mm) of Bronica's lens
mount makes it hard or impossible to convert other medium format or view
camera wide angle lenses, especially the non-retrofocus models.
Fortunately, wide angle lenses are one place the Kiev lenses shine,
starting with
the uniquely affordable 30mm Zeiss design fisheye for circa $200 and up.
The other Kiev lenses include 40mm, 45mm,
50mm, 60mm, and 65mm wide angle offerings by Carl Zeiss Jena and
Schneider, along with 45mm, 55mm, and 65mm shift lenses too. At the longer
telephoto end, there are some superb optics ranging from the 180mm
f/2.8 and 300mm f/4 Zeiss Sonnar lenses to three (3!) 250mm lenses and
four (4!) 500mm optics. Phew! Now you can see why people are willing to
risk problematic camera bodies to get such an outstanding and affordable
line of lenses.
Sadly, a number of the Kiev camera lines seem to have been shut down,
including some panoramic models. The Exakta 66 model III are no longer in
production either (the later Kiev 60 clone). A fair number of USA dealers
are
pricing these Kiev optics much higher than you can buy direct, partly to
offset the cost of returns. Rebuilt Kiev cameras from Kiev/USA and
Hartblei are one solution to improving the reliability of Kiev cameras,
but an expensive one.
My point here is that with both the Bronica S2/EC and Kiev 88/60 cameras,
you have to consider the other medium format options carefully. Many of
the refurbished Kiev-88 Hartblei and Kiev/USA kits cost in the $800 and up
range. Bronica
S2A and EC series cameras with lenses and backs run from $500 to $850 and
up. At these price points, you can also buy used current medium format
cameras
such as Bronica's ETR (645), SQ (6x6), and GS-1 (6x7) SLRs, as well as
various 6x4.5cm mamiya 645 and pentax 645 and 6x7cm models. You will also
see various models of Rollei SLX motorized
6x6cm SLR with 80mm Zeiss leaf shutter lens, or even Hasselblad 500c/cm or
500el/elm models with Zeiss 80mm leaf shutter lens starting at $800 US.
The same $800 or so will buy you a multi-leaf shutter lensed Kowa 6/66
kit, or a three lens Koni Omega 6x7cm kit with interchangeable
backs.
The key to selecting which camera you should buy is to evaluate your
needs and camera features. Price
out the complete camera system with all the
lenses, backs, backup bodies, and accessories you expect to buy and need.
This tactic will quickly highlight the real costs of buying current medium
format cameras - the lenses and accessories (see available lens costs). By this system pricing
effort, you will quickly find out why the more Bronica or Kiev lenses
and accessories you
buy, the bigger the bargain your camera kit will seem to be. But be sure
you can live with the limitations of slow flash x-synch speed, camera kit
weight, noise (ouch!), and repair issues before you buy...
See links at Camera Library Pages for Kiev
buying guide and various Kiev related resources. See Bronica Pages for more information on the
Bronica cameras too.
Editor's note - Using Kiev Lenses on Other Bodies
Another often recommended alternative is to buy a focal plane 6x4.5cm body
such as the Mamiya 645 (or Pentax 645, but not the leaf shutter Bronica
ETR bodies). You can use a lens mount adapter (cost $30 up) to mount the
Kiev lenses on the Japanese quality built Mamiya or Pentax 6x4.5cm camera
body. So you get the benefit of low cost Schneider and Carl Zeiss Jena
Kiev or Pentacon optics on the more reliable and electronics feature rich
Japanese 6x4.5cm pro bodies. Is this the best of both worlds?
The bad news with using an adapter is that you lose auto-diaphragm
operation, meaning you have to stop down manually to use (like a preset
lens). Metering also has to be via stop-down modes. The smaller 6x4.5cm
format will also mean that you will be seeing only the central part of the
usual 6x6cm coverage square (e.g., with the 30mm fisheye). The 6x6cm
lenses will be larger and heavier than 6x4.5cm lenses.
Finally, the 6x4.5cm format focal plane models by Mamiya and Pentax have
relatively low cost native auto-diaphragm lenses for these same models.
The savings over the older used Mamiya or Pentax lenses may be modest
unless you buy and use a lot of Kiev or Pentacon mount lenses. The Mamiya
645 also features a very fast f/1.9 normal lens, while the Kiev lenses
tend to be slower on average too.
In short, you will have to consider this option if you are put off by the
reliability problems of the native Kiev and Pentacon mount bodies. But the
cost of many sharp Mamiya and Pentax 645 native lenses with full diaphragm
automation may be not much more than the cost of similar Kiev lenses and a
manual operation adapter. What if you already have a Mamiya or Pentax
camera, but want some exotic lenses you don't plan on using often (e.g.,
fisheye, long telephotos). Then the Kiev lens adapter may be a good
solution to expanding your lens purchase options.
Personally, I consider the better option to be the Kiev 60 as a less
complex design and higher reliability camera than the Kiev 88, partly
thanks to eliminating the troublesome interchangeable back option. You
also get TTL metering prism and the normal 80mm lens in the Kiev 60 kits
for $150-175 and up. The big plus in using a Kiev 60 is that the lenses
will remain auto-diaphragm, unlike the forced manual operation on most
adapters. If you don't have a Mamiya or Pentax 645 kit, and want a true
6x6cm option, then this camera is worth checking out. Good luck!
I use a mix of Mamiya and Ukrainian lenses on my M645's. While the
Ukrainian lenses are very sharp and tend to be faster than the Mamiyas, I
found myself wishing that there was some way to use the readings from my
TTL prism while using the Ukrainian lenses.
While this should have been intuitively obvious it, unfortunately, took
several days for me to realize how simple this was to accomplish. Shame
on me for that...
In auto stop-down mode, you view through a wide-open lens. Realizing that
the mechanical linkage between the Mamiya lens and TTL prism only serves
to notify the prism of how many stops to offset the exposure setting for
what the *true* f/stop will be at the time of the actual exposure, it
occurred to me that all I needed to do was make sure that the mechanical
linkage (on the prism) was pushed all the way toward the shutter release
to ensure that an offset of "0" was set. This is the same position it
would be in if you were using a Mamiya lens that was set for maximum
aperture. (So, when using adapted lenses, leave the prism linkage pushed
all the way toward the shutter side of the camera, at all times, or you
will get an overexposure.)
Then, in manual stop-down mode, with a Ukrainian (or any other "adapted"
lens), it will provide a proper exposure for whatever aperture you happen
to have set. This is because the TTL prism "thinks" you're shooting
wide-open (but with a very slow lens, perhaps) and sets an exposure that
corresponds directly (with no modifications for stopping down) to the
amount of light passing through the already-stopped-down non-coupled lens.
Because my Mamiya TTL prism has generally been pretty accurate, it makes
it very convenient to now be able to put any of my lenses on the camera
and not have to tote around my light meter if I don't care to.
Just thought I'd pass this tid-bit along for those of you who can use it.
If I haven't explained it clearly enough, please let me know.
-Mike
From: "M. P. Brennan" mpbrennan@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001
Subject: Re: Kiev or Hartblei ?
If you're talking about getting a CM (which uses Pentacon mount lenses),
you might want to consider a Mamiya 645 instead.
You can buy an M645 body with prism and insert for $275 on eBay and buy a
Pentacon to Mamiya adapter for $30 (www.kievcamera.com) and use the
Ukrainian and German lenses on that rig.
All the body is, is a box that holds the lens in the correct orientation
to the film. Once the shutter is open, all that matters is the glass and
the film. People who look at your images will not be able to tell if your
camera looked like a Hasselblad or not.
My Mamiya M645 kit continues to grow, but some of my best purchases, so
far, have been:
1) Arsat 30mm Fisheye
2) Carl Zeiss Jena 50mm Flektogon
3) Kalenier 150mm/2.8
I've also got Mamiya 80mm/2.8 and 150mm/3.5. The Mamiya 150mm is as good
as the Kalenier, but it certainly isn't any better. The extra stop is a
handy thing to have, too.
Just this morning, I used the Arsat 30mm on my Canon Elan II (with proper
adapter) to take some pictures for a real-estate advertisement for some
rental property. It sure was nice getting the whole room in the frame.
If sex came packaged as a lens, it would be the CZJ 50mm Flektogon. My
CZJ 50mm is so wonderful that I'm tempted to sell my 80mm Mamiya lens
because I can't imagine when I'd use it instead of the CZJ.
As for the Russian cameras, I've never owned one but I've played with a
few (I also stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night). The Kiev 88 has
that spine-tingling walnut-crunching sound when you advance the film and
cock the shutter. Sure, it's supposed to be normal, but if a human being
made that much noise when he moved he'd be in traction. A friend of mine
just got a Salyut (forerunner to the Kiev) and, to my amazement, it is
smooth as silk. I've heard that this is a typical experience of Salyut
(Saliut?) owners.
You might consider one of those. The older ones use their own weird lens
mount, but the later ones (Salyut-C, also known as the Salyut-S) use the
Kiev 88 lens mounts.
Lots of choices out there. Try to weigh all the information to decide
what's best for you.
-Mike
From Kiev Mailing List:
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001
From: "Kelvin" kelvinlee@pacific.net.sg
Subject: Re: Re: Kiev 88
You will very likely have one major problem with some CZJ lenses. And that
is, that some lenses will not mount because the preview lever will
interfere with the shutter release. Or else, it will block the release and
not fire. This problem is inherent in many of the P6 mount K88 simply
because the camera design is for a lens with a shorter back-focus re:
K88/hassy 1000F mount ... so modifying a K88 to P6, or else building a K88
around a P6 mounting inadvertantly means a recessed mounting for lenses.
The solution however, isn't too difficult. Open up the lenses affected and
remove the preview lever.
Generally, I'd say the Hartblei are better than the 88CM because Hartblei
takes stock from the Kiev factory, reinspects and rebuilds the cameras
where necessary.
Mike is agent for both 88CM and hartlei.
....
From Kiev88 Mailing List;
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001
From: flexaret@sprynet.com
Subject: Re: New Camera Repair Group
Kelvin,
I have now joined this new group.
I would like to propose a new first thread:
"CAMERAS OUT OF FOCUS ALIGNMENT"
Anybody who has read my posts on Bob Monaghan's Bronica/medium format site
and The Kiev /Delphi Forum, knows I have done focus fixes to Bronica S2A
and Kiev 88 cameras.
What amazes me is how did cameras leave the factory out of alignment.
This means, that the finder groundglass screen is not getting the same
in-focus image that is going to the film. In Bronica S2A type cameras some
finder foam dries up and allows springs to push the groundglass to an out
of focus position - what a stupid design for a great series of cameras.
Even when the foam is replaced by a better material sometimes the camera
is still not in focus, indicating that the original factory setting was
wrong too.
The Bronica can only be aligned by using thin shims of metal to raise the
screen up to a proper in-focus position.
The Kiev 88 (and the Kiev 60) can be aligned much easier by adjusting the
height of four screws one below (or above in the K60) each corner of the
groundglass. We would have to assume that while the Zenza company made a
better camera in the Bronica S2A than Arsenal's Kiev 88, Zenza's screen
alignment methods/work were far worse. Arsenal that has a better alignment
design is well known for poor quality control.
So - all 6x6 reflex owners, especially of Kiev 88 and Bronica S2A type
cameras, should check their finder focus with a groundglass at the film
plane compared to the finder screen and make any needed adjustments.
In future posts we might give suggestions on how to do this easily.
- Sam Sherman
From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2) Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Date: 28 Dec 2001 Subject: New Kiev 88CM instead of Old Bronica S2A? Old Bronica cameras are getting harder to obtain- With the contributing popularity of Bob Monaghan's excellent Bronica/Medium Format Mega-site: http://medfmt.8k.com/bronica.html There are far fewer excellent condition Bronica S2A cameras and Nikkor lenses easily available today than there were 12 months ago. That is from dealers and other sources including Ebay. This also goes for excellent S2 and C models as well as the later EC and ECTL series. There is no doubt that excellent physical and working condition classic Bronicas and Nikkor lenses are some of the great bargains of 6x6cm SLR photography - easily capable of the best in medium format photography. What is a new photographer to do who can't find these cameras and is on a very limited budget, but wants something in the Hassy/Bronica style at low cost. Even though the Kiev 88 world can be a minefield of hidden problems, I can easily suggest the latest "upgraded" year 2001 models of the Kiev 88CM - from - www.kievcamera.com The Kiev 88CM is now developing a world-wide popularity and cult following - see: www.kievaholic.com And there are new tilt/shift lenses for the Kiev 88CM like nothing ever available for old Bronica and other medium format cameras. More of the Kiev 88CM models are working well, than not and I personally have had truly excellent medium format results from them. Furthermore, since the latest versions accept all Kiev 60 mount Kiev lenses, they also accept all Carl Zeiss Jena/ Pentacon 6 lenses and Schneider lenses for Exakta 66. With these excellent optics and the incredible 30MM f3.5 Arsat (very low priced) Fisheye/Panoramic lens - it is possible to take truly professional quality negatives and chromes with these cameras the photographic origin of which is hard to determine. Yes, the Kiev world is not always problem-free, but Kiev Camera stands behind their cameras with a solid warranty and good repair service, in addition to having all lenses and accesories available. One accessory is a mount adapter which accepts the old Kiev 88 "B" screw mount lenses (these are extremely low priced today) and allows them to be used on the Kiev 88CM with focusing to infinity. Are these cameras for everyone- no - there can be a few problems- but for the precise, exacting, patient and low budget enthusiast - they can deliver very rewarding results. - Sam Sherman
Related Postings:
From Kiev88 Mailing List: Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 From: Kevin Kalsbeek krkk@earthlink.net Subject: Re: Kiev 88CM and Focus Solved Miguel, I have been watching the manufacturing date game for years, and to be honest, can see no validity to it. There are a larger number of defects per hundred in the K88s vs a Japanese or German camera, But, it is my opinion, and that of others, that the majority of failures in the K88s are caused by operator error----- it only takes one! I have 4 88's, an '89 (body), a '95, a'97 VRN (Hartblei) which originally had cloth curtains, and the shutter speeds soon went bad, and I had it retrofitted- at no charge- with black metal curtains- note that Hartblei does not recommend the cloth curtains(!) , and a '97 body, which an acquaintance gave me after he bought it off e-bay- against my advice, and of course, it was dead. Leonid Treskunov repaired it and it is now a nice smooth, useable body. IMO, the stupidity of people who will not take the time to read and follow the instructions should not be blamed on Kiev, BUT--- it would be a good thing if Kiev could "idiot proof" the cameras. I suspect that this would require a major redesign, which I have no doubt there is no money for. To this end, I wrote documents that Mike Fourman and Genna Kaplan send out with their cameras, but if they are not read and followed, who is to blame, but the USER? I guess that I have had exceptionally good luck- at least, according to some folks, but I do not think so- it is how the camera is used, or perhaps more accurately how it is misused. My advice: pay no attention to the dates. Both of my K60s were from "good" years, and both had more problems "out of the box" than the the K88s I bought new. They are now fixed, and are treasured tools for me. Get a Kiev, LEARN how to use it, and trouble shoot it as required, and it will be found worth the investment- even if some work is required. Are mine PERFECT?? No, but they do a fine job at what I require them to do, which makes me happy. What more can I say? Miguel- don't take my comments personally, ok? They are intended to be "general". Kevin Miguel Gonzalez wrote: > Hey Kelvin, > I guess that just goes to show you. You can't praise or bad mouth a kiev because it will make a liar out of you every time. Congratulations on having a dependable pre-90 post-82 camera. I've found that every time I decide to "blow hard" about something I think I know about, there's always someone to kindly remind me that I could be wrong. Anyhow, in our day and age, even if you have a lemon, KievUSA or Mike Fourman can replace EVERY single moving part that's defective and make it work. > A while back on the Delphi Forums, I made the comment that kiev88's are as much fun as a 1968 Mustang. You can either cherry it out and have it completely reconditioned to its original condition (or better) OR you can hot rod that little sucker with mirror pre-release, cloth curtains, crank, two kinds of mounts....the options are not endless, but they are plentiful. Really, no one wants to pay 2 or 3 hundred bucks for something that they are going to have to send right off to either be adjusted, fixed, or suped-up. But, realistically, that's how you better your chances of having a more dependable camera. > Take it easy you guys and happy kieving. > > Miguel
from kiev88 mailing list: Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 From: flexaret@sprynet.com Subject: Re: It sure is quiet out there.....By the way... Jeff, You seem like a decent fellow to me. I have enjoyed your posts over time and we all would all say we hate to lose you to this group. You have obviously had more problems than most with Kiev cameras and maybe I can suggest some solutions. I assume you are a photo pro, and to that end I suggest you do not use Kiev cameras for your professional work. My suggestion is to get an excellent to Mint Bronica S2A - of which there are many out their for $350 to $500. Then have it adjusted by Frank Marshman (Camera Wiz - see ad in back of Shutterbug) - then get a few of the excellent Nikkor accessory lenses for the camera $125 to $200 each - and that outfit will be working into the Next century. There is nothing in medium format you cannot do in high quality with that outfit. see Bob Monaghan's Mega Bronica/Medium Format site- http://medfmt.8k.com/bronica.html As for the Kiev equipment - you can still restore some of it - and sell the rest as-is to get rid of it and let someone else play with it. You can probably sell it to list members here. The camera(s) you keep you can use for non-essential work. FYI - I would think that Frank Marshman or Ken Ruth (Photography on Bald Mountain) can fix all of that stuff to work really well, too. There is none of the Kiev equipment which cannot be fixed. As for Kiev 88 backs - the old ones are for the birds and not worth fixing. Sell them as-is for $20-$25 each. I have two new NT backs and they work just great - I will not go backwards to the old backs. I have a Salyut-C which works very well - you can get one of these for $150 and add $100 or less to it for clean and lube and that should be working in 50 years. Most of those cameras are still working well 30 years later and they take all of the same Kiev 88 finders, backs and 88 "B" screw mount lenses. If this still does not appeal to you - sell off all of the 88 stuff but the lenses. Get a good Kiev 60 - these are rugged and generally work well. I have one since 1988 and it is still fine. Then get a Kiev 88 lens adapter to K60/P6 mount from Mike Fourman and you can use those K88 lenses on the K60. As for the stopdown pin problems - that is an easy repair generally and any good repairman can fix them. Or you can try Ken Ruth or Frank Marshman. I have a Salyut-C which works well and a late model (2001) standard Kiev 88 with Hartblei crank from Mike Fourman which is excellent. My Kiev 88CM is now in the shop. I would like to see this reach its true optimum as I have enjoyed using it. Meanwhile, I am using my P6 lenses on Pentacon 6TL and Kiev 60 and using my Bronicas. My old Bronica S2 was upgraded by Frank Marshman and my Bronica C was upgraded by Ken Ruth - both can stand Pro - hard use- but I don't work them that hard. Good luck - hoping you might be able to use some of these suggestions. Best, Sam Sherman P.S. -Forgetting the backs, I would be interested to learn exactly which Kiev cameras you have had and an exact list of the problems on each. We can all learn from other's problems how these cameras can mis-function.
From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2) Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Date: 10 May 2001 Subject: Re: Kiev 88 film back light seal repair w/ Hassy parts? While I would not want to depend on a Kiev 88 for anything that is a must, there are lots of good photos which these cameras can take. I would consider a Bronica S2A as far more reliable and a good Rolleiflex TLR as the most reliable, even better than Hasselblad. P.S. Hasselblad backs will not work on Kiev 88 cameras. They were purposely made not to interchange back from Kiev to Hassy and so forth. This and other information could be evidence that Hasselblad sold/bartered the Hassy 1000F designs and tooling to the USSR. Some of the Kiev 88 and earlier Salyut cameras are well made and work well, but the average is poor, owing mostly to badly made backs and under-lubricated two main shutter gears which are the the heart of most of the malfunctions and repair disasters. Most of these cameras can be adjusted to work well with good results. The new NT backs are also a great improvement.
From: flexaret2@aol.com (FLEXARET2) Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format Date: 26 Jun 2002 Subject: Re: Cheap Kievs from Russia - risk assessment My Kiev 6x6cm / Medium Format History: I have used a variety of medium format cameras for over three decades. My favorites are Bronica S2A, S2 and C - all of mine are completely reliable. I have had two of them overhauled and they work without a hitch. I have a Kiec 6C since 1985 and it works perfectly. I have a Kiev 60 since 1988 and it works perfectly. Neither have ever needed repairs. I have successfully used Pentacon 6TL, Hamimex Praktica 66 and Praktisix II since the 1970s. In the past 2 years I have noted a lot of activity on the internet concerning Kiev 88 cameras - some upgraded - some not. Over 10 years ago I was involved with marketing Kiev 88 cameras in the US- and we had probably 25% defectives. I wanted nothing more to do with Kiev 88. Two years ago I noted many people who praised these cameras and went into a little study of my own. I now have 4 such cameras- Salyut-C purchased from Lemiu - have used it a lot with excellent results until the shutter jammed. I sent it to Eddie Smoloff for a low cost unjam - clean- lube adjust - now back in full action. Salyut-C - Like New purchased from seller in Russia. Works fine. Kiev 88CM - purchased from Kiev Camera - I paid for an upgrade of my early model, which had jammed slow speeds. I got back a brand new Hartblei-Upgraded model of Kiev 88CM - with New Improved cloth shutter curtains, new-style slow speed mechanism and new lens mount taking all Zeiss Jena lenses. This works well and is a great camera. Kiev 88/crank model - purchased from Kiev Camera - a new, upgraded model with metal shutter curtains, interior flocking. All speeds are accurate and results are excellent. This was the only camera I took on a trip to California - along with the 2X Arsenal converter (B screw mount). I took many rolls of film - every shot was perfect. A fully reliable camera I would use for any important purpose. My results have shown me that the earlier Salyut-C models (supposed to be hand assembled and more precise) can be really excellent cameras at low prices. The latest Kiev 88 cameras can be excellent. The latest Hartblei-upgraded Kiev 88CM from Kiev Camera is excellent. I have heard that Hartblei-revised Kiev 88 cameras can be tops. I did recently have a defective 1984 Kiev 88, which I sold as-is. From memory - the 1982 to 1991 Kiev 88 cameras I had in the past were the ones with most of the problems I identified. While others have used some of these with good results - I would not have one of these unless it had been worked on and upgraded in some way. - Sam Sherman