Advice to People Buying
Old Medium Format Cameras on Ebay
by Roland Rashleigh-Berry

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Updates:
Latest Version of this Article (author's new website)

(this is my personal view and I am not connected with the ebay organisation and am not claiming to represent them)(revised edition, 15:00, 15 September 2002, (C) Roland Rashleigh-Berry)

I've bought a lot of old medium format cameras on ebay. Sometimes I have been delighted with the purchase but many times been very disappointed and frustrated by the attitude of the seller. So I've put together a list of things to check when buying old medium format cameras that have come from personal experience so that it can help you avoid trouble and make your use of ebay a positive experience. I'll be updating this article from time to time as I get more information in.

NEW SELLERS

Bear in mind that a seller who hasn't sold much in the way of old medium format cameras before on ebay might not have much of a clue. These old cameras can look very appealing to people new to them. They can be "perfect in every way", "mint" or "beautiful", but to our jaundiced eyes they could be fit only for spares. The seller might have a high rating but for other items not camera related. Also they could be a buyer turned seller and they could have sold very little before. But even if a person has a high rating, there is so much pressure from ebay to stop people leaving negative feedback that the rating is not a good indication of the service you will get from them. But so long as you ask the right questions from the seller, as below, then hopefully it will be OK.

LENS:

This is the most important item on the old medium format camera. Cosmetic condition is secondary. If the lens ("taking" lens for a TLR) is imperfect then so is the camera (unless it has a replaceable lens that you intend to replace at your own cost). A lens might look OK on a photograph. Even a close-up photograph. But the only good way to check the lens is to open it up on "B" shutter and look through the lens at full aperture pointing at a small bright light source. This will show up any defects in the lens immediately. You will see scratches, dirt and coating marks if they are there.

So if you are buying an old MF camera then if it isn't clear from the item description that the seller has placed, you will need to contact the seller to ask them to clarify the condition of the lens. Ask the question something like "Have you checked on this lens by looking through it at a bright light source? Can you please give me a detailed description of the lens condition?".

If the lens is scratched even only slightly then the camera is maybe worth a quarter less than if it hadn't been scratched at all. Coating marks will also devalue the camera but only by about a tenth of its worth. Don't worry about balsam bubbles but worry about balsam separation. If there are signs of balsam separation then the lens will need taking apart at some stage and rebalsamed. If it is a TLR you are buying then don't worry too much about the viewing lens. So long as it works and looks good enough then don't worry. BUT, if you are buying a TLR you should additionally and specifically ask the seller the condition of the mirror. These can become dull with age and sometimes the reflective coating can be so bad that the viewing through the hood can be difficult. So, if you are buying a TLR, check on the condition of the mirror as well. If it's an old MF SLR you are buying, then again, check on the mirror.

SHUTTER

This is the second most important item. If your shutter isn't working properly, then even with a perfect lens you won't be getting your exposure right. It would help if you knew what were the good shutters and which were less reliable. Some cameras such as Zeiss folders have different shutters sold at doifferent prices when new so some shutters were definitely better than others. Vario and Prontor are low priced shutters, for example.

But let us suppose you do not have this knowledge. You need to be assured that the shutter is working properly. At the fast end of the shutter - the 1/300th sec speed or faster, the shutter should be so fast that is difficult to even see if it has moved when you trigger it. At the slow end - at one second, the speed should be slower than two seconds. You have to bear in mind that the shutter springs will weaken over time and what was exactly one second when new will be more like 1.5 seconds fifty years on. If the shutter on one second takes more like two seconds then the shutter will need a service and this can be expensive - like $75 for cleaning and servicing.

Also you should ensure that the "B" setting works correctly. This is not something to ignore. And if the camera has a "T" setting then this should work as intended as well. If "B" or "T" isn't functioning then the value of the camera is reduced by about two thirds as much as if you needed a full shutter service.

Another thing to check on is the condition of the shutter blades, if the camera has a leaf shutter that most old MF cameras do. This is a REALLY important one to check, because some sellers wll "help" an old shutter work smoother by squirting in some lighter fluid. This is a very bad thing to do. So ask the seller, if not in the item description "Is there any sign of oil or other marks on the shutter blades?" If the diaphram (the thing that alters the aperture) blades are located away from the shutter blades, then a bit of oil on them won't hurt and could be deliberate.

BELLOWS

If you are buying a folding camera or if it is another type but with bellows then you should check that the bellows are light tight. If they leak light then they will spoil your shots. Don't buy a camera whose bellows leak light. You should check that the seller has checked the bellows and they are indeed light tight before buying the camera. Always ask if the bellows has been repaired. If it has then the camera is worth about 20% less.

DOOR CATCH

If it is a folding camera then make sure the door catch is working emphatically so that the door stays closed when it is supposed to.

WIND-ON AND RED WINDOWS

Your old medium format camera will either have a red window at the back, so you can see the frame number on the film, or it will wind on automatically - internally sensing the film position. If the camera relies on the red window then you should not buy the camera if its red window is missing. If the description says this is easy to fix then let the seller fix it before you buy it. Don't buy a camera like this (I'll go more into translating innocuous-sounding comments like this in a new section at the end of this article).

And if it relies on automatic wind-on then make sure this has been checked. Some cameras will only wind on automatically if there is a film in the camera. It is a simple matter to use an out-of-date film roll as a dummy roll to test this. It costs the seller nothing and only takes seconds to do. Assume if it hasn't been tested then it doesn't work. If this is not covered in the item description then ask the seller about it. It might cost you a lot of money to fix a fault like this. Think $60-100.

Also, if it has the red window and relies on it, then a camera without a built-in mechanism for coverig this red window is worth far less than one that does. Film speed used to be around 25 when the cameras were made, rather than our slow speed of 100 now. And early B+W film was not sensitive at all to red light. Mostly blue (that's why skies are always white in very old photographs). So if you use a colour film in cameras that rely on the red window then if you leave the red window open, you will get fogging of your film because the light will seep through and expose your film.

If you get one of these cameras then you should realise that it is worth less than one that has the red window cover and you should bear in mind that if you want to use this camera then you are going to have to tape insulation tape over the window and keep removing it and replacing it when you use it. So if you buy one of these old cameras then don't be suprised if there is a sign that tape has been used. This is only natural. And the sticky residue it leaves behind is easily removed with lighter fluid.

COSMETIC CONDITION

You need to make sure you have sufficient photographs to view to assess the cosmetic condition of the camera. It isn't sufficient to read a comment like "some paint loss typical of cameras of this age". That could mean extensive flaking and extensive paint loss. You will need to judge from the photographs. Also, in the old days, paint chipping and flaking was quite common and the owner would retouch it using special paints available for this purpose. So even if you have the photographs you will not see evidence of retouching on them do you should ask. A camera in its original perfect finish is worth far more than one that has been retouched. A camera retouched in several places, no matter how well done, is worth only 2/3rd what the camera is worth if in perfect original condition. If it is extensively retouched then it is worth maybe only half. That was the condition of the enamel.

But you could have a chrome finish on the camera or perhaps it is plated. So check for corrosion and brassing (where the surface has rubbed through exposing the brass underneath) and "bright marks" and scratches on chrome. "Bright marks" are where your camera has a chrome satin finish. The satin can be rubbed down by fingernails and can result in the chrome looking unsightly. This can again devalue the camera by a third.

THE VIEWFINDER

If the camera has a separate viewfinder then ask about the condition of it. If the viewfinder is cloudy then they can sometimes be difficult to clean. If the viewfinder isn't clear then you may need to take the top off the camera to clean it yourself. Some old viewfinders don't clean up well at all. If you don't want this hassle then ensure the viewfinder is clear by asking the seller, if it isn't covered in the item description.

THE RANGEFINDER

If the camera has a built-in rangefinder then you should inquire as to whether this is accurate or not. These are usually easy to adjust so if the seller is selling it and hasn't been able to adjust it then it could be problematic. Sometimes the camera has been roughly handled at some stage (true of nearly every camera that is old) and the double images might be very slightly out of alignment vertically. But if this isn't by much then don't worry about it. It happens and does not devalue the camera. It is easily fixed but it isn't worth the bother for anyone to do it. It is whether it is accurate that counts.

RUSSIAN CAMERAS

These are nightmare cameras. You can be lucky or not. Russian cameras made for export outside the old eastern block are usually of better quality that those coming out of that area afterwards. This because there were tighter quality controls for exported cameras. Trouble is, you don't know the camera's history.

Also, you might be buying from another country so you have to bear in mind the cost and bother of sending it back if it is not in good condition. I would go as far as to recommend that you DO NOT BUY cameras from eastern block countries at all - no matter how glowing is the description of the camera and no matter what assurances you are given. For example, I have bought two Moska V's, which are supposed to be exact copies of the Zeiss Super Ikonta made on the exact same machinery that they got out of the Zeiss factory only to realise what trash they were because of the poor quality and poor tolerances of the machined parts. If you do intend to buy Russian cameras from your own country then you should check on the history of the camera and also if it has been used and if it is reliable and if there are any light leaks. But my advice is to steer well clear of them.

OTHER NIGHMARE CAMERAS

I will add to this list in time.

Voigtlander folding cameras (old Voigtlander, not Cosina/Voigtlander) can be nightmare cameras. The standard that the lens and shutter assembly sits on can be wobbly and not hold the lens and shutter assembly tight enough. This will result in the lens shaking when you take the shot. The coupled rangefinder Voigtlanders can be even worse. This is because somebody could have turned the rangefinder knob with the door closed. This will result in the arm that extends the lens becoming buckled. Not only is this unsightly and can make it difficult for the door to open, but the length of the arm has effectively changed and the lens will need to be refocussed. Always, always ask to know whether there is any sign of the rangefinder arm having been buckled for these coupled rangefinders (Bessa Rangefinder and Bessa II). But apart from that, these can be wonderful cameras to collect and use and can hold their value well.

INSURED POSTAGE

A camera can get damaged in transit. If given a hefty whack then the case could be bent. Even if there is no visible damage then the lens could be put out of alignment or the shutter broken. If the camera was sent in working condition and it arrives in non-working condition then this is the first thing you should assume - that it was damaged in transit and make a claim. Do not send valuable cameras by post anywhere unless they are fully insured.

BUYING TO RESELL

If you intend to buy to resell then think about how you are going to do this. If you are going to resell the same way you bought it (i.e. on ebay) then keep in mind that the item you bought was open to all bidders and that you probably paid the going price for it on that selling mmedium. So if you sell it again you might even make a loss on it or it may not reach its reserve price.

So you might want to resell to a camera shop. But if you sell a camera for up-front cash then they will only give you half what they are intending to sell it for. If they have a number of the same items then they will offer you less then half. You can sell on a commission basis in which the camera shop keeps 25% of the price it gets sold at, but they will only handle items worth more than a certain amount otherwise it is not worth their while running this service. The lower limit will be something like $200. So don't expect to buy loads of cheap folders, for example, and expect to be able to sell them at a shop on a commission basis.

So this may only be worthwhile if you effectively have your own camera shop. Also your money could be tied up in these cameras for some considerable time before they finally sell. And I hate to say it, but if you have your own camera shop then you would be better off selling new digital cameras and not bothering with old cameras at all, unless they were just for display.

WHEN YOU GET YOUR CAMERA

Suppose you have checked on all these things with the seller. Your camera arrives. The first thing you should do is go through the above check list yourself to ensure the camera is OK and as described. You must bear in mind that for checking automatic wind-on, sometimes this only works if you have a film in the camera. Use an out-of-date roll as a dummy roll to check this and keep it in a handy place so you always know where to lay your hands on it. If you buy a Rolleiflex then the later models (Automat onwards) sense the film position when the film passes BETWEEN rollers. You have to thread the film BETWEEN these rollers for it to detect the frame positions correctly. Don't make a fool of yourself by complaining to the seller that the wind-on mechanism doesn't work if you don't know how the camera is supposed to work.

If the camera doesn't pass all these tests then don't consider the transaction over. Get straight back to the seller about it. Same day. If the camera isn't as described then you should return it and get a refund. And the seller should refund your return postage at least. If the seller claims the camera was fine when they sent it and you are claiming it wasn't working when you got it then make an insurance claim since it is obviously the carrier's fault and they damaged it in transit. Don't get into arguments. It will get you nowhere. What you want is your money back and the insurance will cover you. You paid for it. Now you collect.

BAD SELLERS

If you have a bad experience with a seller then never deal with them again for anything. Remember their id. Avoid anything and everything they sell on ebay (I wish ebay had a killfile) no matter how good it sounds. But also remember good sellers. Go back to an excellent seller again and again. Look at the other items they are selling using the link. But always check the cameras like I said, when you get them, in any case. Nasty things can happen to sensitive mechanisms when going through the postal system.

TRANSLATION GUIDE

This is a translation guide so that you can convert seemingly innocuous statements in the item description into some thing more readily understood. I will be updating this frequently as I am exposed to more of these statements. This will not always be true. This is a cynical interpretation. You should take this with a pinch of salt. Or take it literally and never get hurt.

"I am not an expert on cameras, but" = "I am feigning ignorance so that I can sell you trash and not refund your money".

"No returns" = "I am selling you trash".

"Lens is slightly cloudy/milky but should be easy to clean" = "There is fungus on the lens. Maybe fungus in the balsam as well. This lens is ruined and will never take a decent photograph again".

"Paint missing in some places typical for a camera of this age" = "The camera needs a complete respray. It is old and crummy".

"Signs of retouching" = "Extensively retouched and done badly at that".

"Slow speeds seem a bit tardy/hesitant" = "Shutter needs a full service".

"Should be a simple matter to fix" = "Will be expensive to fix and perhaps not possible".

"Has been stored for a long time" = "Internally filthy and may need dismantling and require a professional clean".

"Case needs some restitching" = "Case is falling apart at the seams".

"Lens has a slightly sepia look" = "This lens has a radioactive lanthanum element in it that will get more sepia with time and will get even worse than it is now".

"Pictures have an appealing soft look" = "Lens is damaged or fungus-infected or coating is no good for colour photography or lens resolution is poor".

Hopefully, if you follow these guidelines (which I will update from time to time and I welcome feedback) your buying experience on ebay will be a positive one and you will enjoy the old medium format cameras you buy.

Roland Rashleigh-Berry
Email suggestions!

Related Postings

From: wtorborg@cloudnet.com (Wayne Torborg)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Advice on buying old MF cameras on ebay
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002


> I welcome feedback on this. I think I need to add the checking for film
> wind-on for semi-automatic cameras in any case so I'll be updating it
> shortly. I'd especially appreciate comments on "nightmare cameras" that
> people have come across.

Hello:

Well, I'll toss in some tidbits of my own, having purchased a few cameras
using eBay.

Personally, I view buying old mechanical cameras the same way I regard
vintage wristwatches. That is, it's rare to be able to take delivery of
any old mechanical contraption and simply put it to use. Generally, a
relube and adjustment is in order to get the old lubrication out and new
stuff in, as well as making sure all adjustments are in order.

This costs money, so one has to factor it in when contemplating the
"bargain" one envisions getting on eBay. That said, there are bargains to
be had for those withe the time and patience to browse.

Recently, I bought an old Ikoflex for a song off eBay. When it arrived,
the focussing track was sloppy (the front standard wobbled as you
focussed) and the action was very stiff. I'm comfortable taking apart
certain types of cameras and working on them, so I simply disassembled the
thing, cleaned the gunk out, tightened the track, and put the thing back
together. It's fine now, but this would have cost at least $100.00 coming
from a pro camera repair person.

Other things to beware of on eBay (disclaimer--my tongue is often planted
firmly in my cheek  :-)    )

1. People who start their description with, "I really don't know anything
about these things, but here for sale is....."  Ebay is full of "junk
dealers," folks who simply vacuum stuff from the world and put in online
for sale. They don't know anything about what they are selling, and
unfortunately cannot answer questions about the item if you ask them.
Unless the online photos are really informative and you have a gamblers
flair, take caution.

2. People who are the same as above, but actually **do** know about the
thing they're selling, but are playing dumb so that they can't be held
accountable when the item arrives and turns out to be junk.


3. Any item being sold with really bad (blurry, wacky color, really tiny)
digital images as presentation. This was excusable a few years ago when
the consumer digicams were trash. Four years ago, I was complimented by
people on the quality of the photos I had of stuff I was selling (I'm a
commercial digital photographer, and work with very nice equipment).
Today, everyone can get access to cameras that can produce clear, accurate
images of the things they intend to sell. My policy is that if I can't see
it well, I won't place a bid on it.

4. Sellers with excessive negative feedback. What's excessive? Whatever
you are comfortable with. Personally, I expect  a seller with a thousand
transactions to their name to have a few negative marks; it only make
statistical sense. However, if the red marks make up more than a percent
or two, and if the comments left make my radar twitch, I'll pass.

5. Sellers who have the "dark sunglasses" icon next to their name. This
means that the seller changed their online eBay identity not long ago.
This can mean that someone has used up the "politcal capital" of their
particular identity and have changed disguises.

6. With old cameras, I expect the seller to honestly present information
on the following things:
      Presence of haze or fungus in lenses
      Action of shutter at all speeds
      With rangefinders, the visibility of the focussing patch
      The presense of any engravings done by previous owners (ID's etc.)
      The existence of corrosion on any parts
      Condition of the leatherette covering, and where it is peeling

With some luck and common sense, there are bargains to be had on eBay.
Just my two cents.

Wayne




From: "John Stafford" john@stafford.net
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: v2 Advice on buying old MF cameras on ebay
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 


"Art Begun" beguna@mindspring.com wrote ...

> It is helpful, but no guarantee that your transaction will be trouble
> free.  I was screwed by someone who had 30 positives of expensive
> camera equipment and no negatives for all his sales.    [...]

True. My favorite example is the seller who auctions a camera and says "I
don't know anything about cameras but I'll try to answer your questions..."
and when you look at his history, he's sold almost nothing but cameras, and
over 100 of them!

I've managed to be lucky in all but a couple deals, and those were clearly
risks that I accepted. When I ask questions via-email, I am rather tough.
Like "Do you use the KEH rating method.?" and "if the camera is not up to
KEH standards for your rating, you will return my money, correct?" and "...I
put the "ass" in Harass, so let's be square here."





From: haijack@nospam.onr.com (RD)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Advice on buying old MF cameras on ebay
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002

razondetre@aol.com (Razondetre) wrote:

>>From: haijack@nospam.onr.com  (RD)
>>There is nothing inherent to the
>>eBay format that creates "as-is", "where-is" conditions. That's a ploy
>>used by unscrupulous (and occasionally, unknowing) sellers to cheat
>>other members.
>>JL

>No sir.  At all actual physical auctions

Which are not the same as eBay's format, and you note that in the next
paragraph . . .

>In the case of eBay, an auction site, there is no way to determine the physical
>condition firsthand, so it is up to the seller to represent the item properly.

But of course, this has nothing to do with anything being "as-is," as
you cliamed earlier.

If you're going to say "no sir," at least follow it up with something
relevant. Otherwise, we should just agree that eBay sales are not
as-is unless stated, and that even when so stated, promotional
descriptions by the seller create an overriding obligation (warranty)
to produce the item as described. Incidentally, I have an e-mail from
eBay in which they specifically agree with me on this point. Not that
I needed eBay to tell me this; I'm sure the attorney general's office
in any state will also confirm it.


I want to add that the warranty created by the description logically
necessitates a corresponding remedy. So, a seller who says "Worked
fine when I tried it, but sold as-is." commits fraud if the item
doesn't work,  but he refuses to honor a request for refund.

In other words, not only is there nothing about the eBay format that
inherently creates "as-is" sales, the "as-is" notation becomes
entirely void once a promotional description of the item is included.

JL




From: haijack@nospam.onr.com (RD)
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: Advice on buying old MF cameras on ebay
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002

 "Mike" nedsnake@earthlink.net wrote:

>It was one of my duties to tell them that
>they were *never* to answer a buyers question, "does this work?".  A "yes it
>works" answer immediately places an expressed or implied warranty on that
>item and liblies the auction company to honor it.

Thanks for adding your voice. I don't know why these points are even
being argued. Maybe I should have noted that my background includes
writing product warranties, but I didn't think it would be necessary.

To all you photo buyers out there, I'll just add the following notes:

1. A seller who says ". . . it works but I'm selling it as-is." is
legally required to provide a remedy (make good) if you receive the
item in non-functional condition (even if only one function is
inoperable). His "as-is" notation is worthless against a valid claim
of product non-performance under these conditions.


2. Sellers who don't understand these legal principles will probably
refuse to honor the guarantee they've made regarding condition, even
if it means committing fraud. So, if you get burned because you've
taken them at their word, be prepared for a possibly lengthy
resolution of the matter. If eBay doesn't take care of your loss, you
should contact your state attorney genera, and you should also file a
complaint with the state in which he resides. People DO go to jail for
fraud, especially when the item is transported through the mails. Be
sure to get enough information from eBay to verify the seller's legal
identity and residence or place of business.

If it's a legitimate business with a name registered with the state or
city, don't forget to file a complaint with the BBB. That won't get
your money back, but it will put a black mark on their record. Don't
spend too much time on this one - a simple one-paragraph complaint
will do. The BBB is funded by business, not consumers, and the company
only has to file a written response refuting your complaint in order
to remove the mark from their public record. You would be surprised
how many small businesses (especially bad ones) won't bother to
respond, though. That's why it's worth complaining.

3. Never think you were wrong to take the seller at his word, that the
deception is your fault, or that the "as-is" claim which you may have
overlooked or not fully understood relieves his responsibility to you.
The seller has used a promotional description of the item's condition
to elicit bids and raise its value. He cannot do that without becoming
liable for the validity of his claim in exchange for what he receives
as payment for the merchandise.

4. **IMPORTANT** The term of the implied warranty is indefinite. If
the seller states the item is in working condition, but it fails 30
days after you receive it, you may still have a valid claim. This is
one of the costs of business recoginized by legitimate retailers, but
often overlooked by eBay members. Your attorney general, consumer
fraud bureau, etc. may be able to provide guidelines on the term of
implied warranty in your area for new and used goods. Otherwise, if
the cost of legal advice is not impractical in consideration of the
loss, consult an attorney.

5. Following is a partial quote from an e-Bay representative in
response to my question on this exact issue less than two weeks ago:

Question
"...is it eBay's policy that an "as-is" notation in an auction
overrides the inherent contractual obligation of the seller to provide
an item in "as-described" condition?

Answer
"The seller ... may not fall back on the "as is" disclaimer and remain
passive. In fact, eBay would honor any fraud claim filed by that
bidder under a misrepresented item, because disclaimers aside, the
seller is contracted to provide the item exactly as described in the
listing."

Happy bidding!

JL




From: Stacey fotocord@yahoo.com
Newsgroups: rec.photo.equipment.medium-format
Subject: Re: My guide to buying old MF cameras on ebay
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002

 "roland.rashleigh-berry" roland.rashleigh-berry@ntlworld.com wrote:
>I've webbed my guide to buying old medium format cameras on ebay here:
>http://homepage.ntlworld.com/roland.rashleigh-berry/cameras/mfebay.html

On the russian cameras. I've found the samples I've bought straight
from russia to be MUCH better than the ones bought outside of the
eastern bloc. This includes folders and the kiev med fromal K-60's.
It seems the intended users of these over there know they must be
CLA'd before use (That's how these are shipped) and there are people
over there who know how to work on these. The "export" models ussually
were never CLA'd before use and as such are mechanically damaged from
no/poor lubrication. The moska V's you tried are well known to have
masive QC problems and it's no surprise you got bad samples of these.

The trick to buying good samples of these are find -well worn-
examples from russia as these are the ones that have good optics, the
poor performing ones look mint because no one would use them! Also the
iskra's that have been coverted to red window winding are good
performers as well. The logic here is it must have worked pretty good
for someone to wear out the counter and pay money to have it
converted.

Stacey



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